Selected quad for the lemma: love_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
love_n	abide_v	commandment_n	father_n	4,406	5	7.0669	4	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A45835	Vindiciæ veritatis, or, An impartial account of two several disputations the one being on the 12th. and the other on the 26th of February, 1671. between Mr. Danson a non-conformist minister, and Mr. Ives, upon this question, (viz) whether the doctrine of the possibility of some true believers final apostacy, be true, or no? Published to prevent false reports. Together with an appendix; in which the said question is more fully resolved in the affirmative, and the absurd[i]t[i]es of the negative opinion detected from the pens of divers of the patrons of it. By a lover of truth and peace.; Contention for truth	Ives, Jeremiah, fl. 1653-1674.	1672 (1672)	Wing I1106A; ESTC R218068	84,282	219

were in this number of Elect. So that this doctrine of the possibility of some True believers fa●ing away finally no way interfers with the doctrin of Election not do those Scriptures that speak concerning Election so much as call the truth of this doctrin in question The other ground of the impossibility of any True believers falling away finally is a mistake of Scripture promises here let me give notice of two ●inds of promises in the Scripture about this matter First such as though they seem to be absolute yet they have conditions implyed in them Secondly of such Scriptures as promise the performance of those conditions the first sort are as follows Mat. 19 18. You that have followed me in the regeneration or in the Resurrection shall sit upon 12 Thrones judging the 12 Tribes of Israel Now this promise seems to be absolute and Judas was one of those 1● to whom it was made but the condition implyed was that they should alway to the end continue in his service and therefore Judas falling away and not performing the condition never came to receive the fruition of the promise Again 1 Sam. 2.30 I said indeed that thy house the house of thy Father should walk beforeme for ever but now the Lord saith be it far from me for them that honour me I will honour c. So the Land of Canaan is often promised to the seed of Abraham for an everlasting possession yet Deut. 4.27 the Lord tells them that if they corrupt themselves He will scatter them among the Nations and they shall be left few in number among the Heathen where he will lead them And so Ezek 11.17 18 19. God promises as one would think upon the first view absolutely that he would gather Israel from among the People and give them one heart and put a new spirit in them but yet he tells them in Chap. 36.27 37. v. compared together that he will do this upon a condition as is there exprest yet for all this will I be inquired of by the house of Israel and so Jer. 31. Jer. 32.40 41 there we read of a Covenant which some call absolute but I must needs say an absolute Covenant in their sense is absolute non-sense in which God promises many things but yet he tells the same People Isa 55.3 That IF they will incline their Ears and come to him he will make an everlasting Covenant with them even the sure mercies of David in this sense God's promises that sem absolute in form are to be conditionally understood As be that believeth on the Son hath everlasting Life and shall not come into condemnation John 8.34 John 5.24 Plalm 125.1 He that trusts in the Lord shall be as mount Sion that never shall be removed Now if these promises are absolute then this must be the sense of such Scriptures that if men have once truly believed and trusted in God they shall inevitably be saved let them hereafter trust or distrust believe or disbelieve or whether they be not or whether they be Whoremongers Adulterers or Idolaters yet they shall be saved and abide for ever Now if this be not the sense then these promises and all of that kind must be understood conditionally that he that believeth and continueth in believing and that trusteth in the Lord and continueth in so doing upon these tearms and conditions he shall be saved and abide for ever and to this agrees all these plain and express Scriptures which being well considered will explain all those texts and promises that seem to be absolute as to the form of them John 5 10. IF YE keep my Commandments ye shall abide in my Love and John 14.23 IF any man love me he will keep my sayings and my Father will love him and we will come unto him and dwell with him 1 Col. 1.21 22 23. And you that were in time past Strangers and Enemies in your minds by wicked works now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh to present you blameless and unreproveable in his sight IF YE continue in the Faith grounded and settled and be not moved away from the hope of the Gospel c. Heb. 3.14 We are made partakers of Christ IF WE hold fast the beginning of OUR CONFIDENCE firm unto the end Rev. 10. be thou faithful unto Death and I will give thee a crown of Life Mat. 24.13 he that endureth to the end shall be saved Heb. 10.38 the just shall live by Faith but if he draw back my Soul shall have no pleasure in him Much like these promises that seem absolute are such Scriptures that promise eternal Life to men without any exception or making the least question of their perseverance when that life and blessing promised is suspended upon their change as he that believeth shall not see Death and he that drinketh saith our Saviour of the Water that I shall give him shall never Thirst this plainly implies that these promises suppose their continuance in so doing so Christ saith he that confesseth me before men him will I confess before my Father which is in Heaven whosoever shall deny me before men him will I deny before my Father which is in Heaven Mat 10.32 33. Now Judas did confess Christ before men but he had no right or claim to this promise because he did not Persevere in this confession in like manner Peter denyed Christ before men but he was not denyed by Christ before his Father in Heaven because he did not persist and dye in the denying of him But yet we may see that the promises of the one and the threatening of the other is made without exception and wherever we read of any such promises a possibility of a change is supposed for when the Scripture saith He that believeth in the Son bath everlasting Life and shall not come into condemnation it doth no more suppose it impossible for that man to fall away and have this promise suspended then the other text that saith He that believeth not shall not see life but the wrath of God abideth or remaineth upon him doth suppose it Impossible for this man ever to believe and to have the wrath of God or the execution of vengeance suspended upon his believing to this may be reduced all Scriptures that seem to promise a blessing or threaten wrath according to mens present state and condition though both the one and the other may be suspended upon their change and that an impossibility of a change is not to be understood more by the one Scripture that promises Salvation to the believer then by the other that tells us wrath remains upon the unbeliever But to this it is usually replyed that though it be true there are promises that are conditional yet God hath promised to perform those conditions for them to whom be graciously makes such promises and therefore it is not possible for any True believer to fall away finally This perswasion

prove that it cannot but remain if he can and that 's our question for God is with us while we are with him and it is one thing to say I remain in the house and another thing to say I cannot but remain in this house Now you are I say to prove that it is no way possible for this seed to be lost or cease to be in them Mr. Danson I will prove that it cannot but remain Mr. Ives I prove that it is impossible to be lost and that it cannot but abide The 1st of John 2. Supposeth that the seed or word might not remain for the Text saith v. 24. IF that which you have heard from the beginning shall remain in you you also shall continue in the Father and in the Son And he that abideth in him ●●●eth not 1 Joh. 3.6 This is the man that is born of God and that doth not sin as others while ●e abideth and 1 Joh. 2.14 I have written to you young men because you are strong and the word of God abideth in you But this doth not suppose it could not but remain and abide For the 28 v. Exhorts those little children to abide in him that they might not be ashamed at his coming and so John 14.6 Christ doth promise the Comforter shall abide or remain with the disciples for ever but that doth not suppose it was impossible for them to fall or that they could not but remain True believers for he afterwards tells them John 15.2 That every Branch IN him that did not bear Fruit he would TAKE AWAY and v. 10. IF you keep my Commandments you shall abide in my Love Mr. Danson The seed of God remaining because this is an ambigious word what we are to understand by it I ask you what do you mean by it Mr. Ives What do you use a tearm in your Argument and ask me what I mean by it and confess it is ambigious this is very strange Mr. Danson We may possibly disagree about the meaning and import of it by the seed of God remaining I mean a principle of grace remaining that I mean by it Mr. Ives I do not know what you mean by a principle of grace for the word is not in Scripture Here a great many of Mr. Danson's side fell a laughing Mr. Ives Do you know what you laugh at shew me any of you where there is such a word if you can in all the Scripture Mr. Fowler Pray what do you understand by the seed of God Mr. Ives I will tell you what I understand by the seed but let me by the way tell you that similitudes are no proofs I confess they are good for Illustration but not for Confirmation and you should have explained it before you used it I mean by the seed The word of God Here those of Mr. Dansons Judgment and also he himself laughed again to the disturbance of the Assembly and not a word was spoken by Mr. Danson to quiet them Mr. Ives What do you laugh at Do you know I give the same interpretation as Christ himself gave he saith The seed is the word of God Mat. 13. Luke 8.11 Mr. Danson Do you understand that here Mr. Ives I do and why do you laugh you may as well laugh at Christ himself for I give his exposition and besides I will shew you that the Apostle Peter himself calls it the incorruptible seed of the word 1 Pet. 1.23 24. Mr. Danson No it saith born of incorruptible seed by the word of God Mr. Ives The Scripture saith the seed is the word of God now you must prove according to this interpretation that those that have the seed nay take it as you will that this seed remains and cannot but remain Mr. Danson I will prove it Those to whom God hath made a promise that the seed shall remain in them it shall remain But to True believers God hath made a promise that the seed shall remain Ergo Mr. Ives I deny the Argument It doth not prove the thing in Question Mr. Danson It doth Mr. Ives What! Doth it prove this that they shall alwaies continue True believers and it is impossible for them to continue otherwise You might as well have said that God Blessed the house of Obed-Edom because the ark of God remained with him therefore Obed-Edom could do nothing to cause the ark of God to depart from him as say that believers are blessed in being kept from gross imp●●ties because the seed of God remains in them that therefore they cannot be impious and the seed of God cannot neither at present nor future let them do what they will but remain in them Here Mr. Fowler interposes again Mr. Fowler That the seed of God doth remain and cannot but remain this proposition you impose upon him he proves it doth remain those to whom God hath made a promise that the seed shall remain there the seed doth remain and cannot but remain But the first is true Ergo Mr. Ives If you please Mr. Fowler I will dispute it with you now if you will take Mr. Danson's place or else any other time but however let it be so now you have made his Argument for him but he did not conclude the Question before as you now do Those to whom God hath made a promise the seed shall remain it cannot but remain But to True believers God hath made a promise that the seed shall remain and cannot but remain Ergo Mr. Ives I deny the major Here one Mr. Loof interposes as he had done several times in the former dispute and in this too deny the major saith he you do not understand your self you mean the Sequel Mr. Ives Answers Mr. Loof Sir I deny rightly the Argument is Cate. gorical but to please you I deny the consequence of the major proposition Mr. Danson I will prove it If the seed shall not remain in them to whom God hath made a promise it shall remain then the promises of God are untrue But the promises of God are not untrue Ergo therefore it shall remain Mr. Ives That is not the Question denyed those ●o whom the promise of God is made that it shall remain it must remain and cannot but remain I denyed that Mr. Danson Because otherwise God should not be True in his promises for I say that if the seed of God doth not remain in those to whom God hath made a promise of its remaining then the promises of God are untrue or God is false to his word But the promises of God is not untrue Ergo the seed of God must remain in those to whom God hath made a promise of its remaining Mr. Ives The consequence doth not follow that then God is not so good as his word and I will give you an Instance if you please that God may promise such and such things and y●● he may not break his word though it doth not come to pass God promised to Abraham without

if those that are born of God have the seed of God alwaies remaining in them then True believers cannot si● as wicked men do Mr. Ives I have answered it by a distinction a● therefore if you will argue of my distinction do I answer fair Mr. Danson You give no answer Mr. Ives Why I answer by distinguishing that if by being born of God you mean believers and if by the seed of God remaining in them you mean while they are True believers I say as you say as a Fathers Love and Respect may remain to his Child while the Child remains Dutyful but from thence it doth no way follow that therefore the Child cannot but alwaies remain Dutysul you are therefore to prove Nay further The Love of a Father remaining to a Child may be a reason why that Child doth not Sin and Rebel as other Children do But it follows not but that this Child may Rebel and Break all these Cords his Father tied him to obedience by Mr. Fowler here Interposes Mr. Dansons Argument saith he is that believers cannot sin as wicked men Ergo they cannot fall away He proves his Antecedent thus He that is born of God bath the seed of God remaining in him your answer is this that believers cannot sin as wicked men do while they remain believers but they may cease to be believers and then they may sin as wicked men do his reply is this that therefore they must remain believers because the seed of God remains in them Mr. Ives I will answer you if you please Mr. Fowler to take his seat I do confess the words of the Text that every one that is born of God cannot sin there is a sense in which they cannot sin and a sense also in which we all agree in in which they can sin but you must remember the grand question is whether he can so sin as that he can so fall away I denyed the consequence I say he that is born of God may sin so as to fall away for he may forfeit the seed of God But I will put a short issue to this question Mr. Danson is to prove to us that the seed of God doth so remain in them as that it can by no means cease to be in them that let them do what they will they cannot but have the seed of God in them Mr. Danson If that the seed of God doth remain then it cannot cease but remain but the seed of God doth remain Ergo. Mr. Ives I deny the consequence for you may as well say if those that come here into this House remain in the House they cannot cease from remaining in it but they remain in it Ergo. As say if the seed of God doth remain it cannot but remain this no way followeth and therefore that which Mr. Danson is to prove is that it is impossible but the seed should remain in them this is our question Mr. Danson The Text saith remain Mr. Ives I So you that are in this House remain in it doth this prove you cannot but remain Mr Danson If the seed of God doth therefore remain in believers because they are born of God then no True believer can fall away Mr Ives You begg the question for you say in effect but this that if believers cannot fall away they cannot fall away for there is a great deal of difference between the seed of God remaining and an impossibility of the seed of God departing Now that which I desire him to prove is this for I do say while any man continues a believer the seed of God remains in him that it is impossible but that it should remain Mr. Danson In them that are born of God the seed of God remains But every True believer is born of God Ergo. Mr. Ives Suppose I should show you that men are said to remain or to abide in a condition it doth not therefore follow they shall never alter that condition The Scripture tells us that he that believes not the wrath of God remains or abides upon him I appeal to you now whether this is a proof that this man cannot be a True believer because wrath remains upon him while he is an unbeliever Mr. Danson This is nothing to the purpose Mr. Ives Yes it is for the Scripture faith expresly that every unbeliever while such hath the wrath of God abiding on him as it is said of a believer he hath the seed of God remaining or abiding in him Now I would ask Mr. Danson whether this phrase the wrath of God remaining or abiding upon an unbeliever doth not respect the time of his continuing an unbeliever But now if he shall like Paul or like the converts in the Acts be prickt in his heart and turn to God I hope you will not say that then the wrath of God abides upon him in like manner as long as any man remains a believer the seed of God abides in him but when he departs from being a believer when he doth throw away on cast away bis considence in God the seed of God doth not remain or abide in him Prove therefore that it shall not depart or that it cannot choose but remain Here Mr. Fowler interposes M. Ives Is this fair pray Sir forbear or take his seat Mr. Fowler The force of his argument lyes here He that is born of God cannot commit sin it is strange news but it is good news how comes this about not from any impossibility as to any grace received grace of it self that because they have received such a stock of grace that therefore they can never fall away but here 's the reason because the feed of God remains in them and the argument is invinsible you nor all your party nor all men under Heaven can answer it Mr. Ives Pray Sir forbear naming parties are we not all Christians but pray what is become of the moderator he is now turn'd disputer But Sir I have given you an instance to take off what Mr. Danson faith if he please to argue upon it he may Here Mr. Fowler interposes again Mr. Ives What two at once this is not fair Gentlemen you disgrace Mr. Danson I denyed the major it doth not follow according to the interpretation of your argument and I answer to you and Mr. Fowler both at once you say the Scripture gives this reason expresly that they cannot sin because they are born of God First I answer that the reason you render is the same the Scripture gives in other cases It expresly faith that the children of the Bride-chamber cannot fast because the Bride-groom is or remains with them it doth not therefore follow that when the Bride-groom is gone away they could not fast neither doth it follow that the Bride-groom should alway remain with them so here you say true that believers or those that are born of God they cannot sin as other men so long as the seed remains in them but now Mr. Danson is to