the business was reconciled by one Seignior Con who came over into England in the year 76. to reconcile the great Difference that was betwixt the Jesuits and the secular Clergy and between the Benedictine Monks and the Jesuits My Lords my Lord Stafford upon the perswasion of this Seignior Con as he does intimate in his letter does assure the Jesuits of his fidelity and his zeal My Lords in the year 78. I found letters from my Lord Stafford wherein he does blame Mr. Coleman's openness and his being too publick in the great Affair and that Mr. Coleman was pleased to communicate several great secrets to men of whose Fidelity his Lordship was not secure My Lords in the year 78. in the month of June my Lord Stafford the Prisoner at the Bar came to Mr. Fenwick and there received a Commission from him to pay an Army that was to be raised for the promoting of the Catholick Interest and he did assure Mr. Fenwick that he was going down into Staffordshire and there he did not question but he should have a good account how the Catholicks stood affected and he did not question but to give a good account how Affairs stood in Staffordshire Shropshire and Lancashire and this Commission to my Lord Stafford was as neer as I can remember to be Pay-Master-General of the Army My Lords among other Discourses with my Lord at the Bar he was discoursing about my Lord Duke of Norfolk and my Lord Arundel his Son and after several other passages he Fenwick was asking of him how my Lord Arundel came to have a Jesuit in his House My Lord Stafford did say that my Lord of Peterborough his Father in Law was instrumental in it on purpose to oblige the Duke of York for my Lord Arundel as I have been told kept Father Symonds in his House who to my knowledge was a Jesuit But my Lords he came to Mr. Fenwicks my Lord Stafford did by the name of Mr. Howard of Effingham L. H. Steward Were you at Fenwicks when my Lord Stafford came to his Chamber Dr. Oats Yes my Lords L. H. Steward Look upon my Lord Stafford is that the same Person Dr. Oats It is the same Gentleman that came there by the name of Howard of Effingham L. H. Steward And he took the Commission Dr. Oats Yes he did so L. H. Steward And he promised to effect it Dr. Oats Yes And he said that he was then going down into the Countrey and he did not doubt but at his return Grove should do the business L. H. Steward Who said so Fenwick Dr. Oats No my Lord Stafford And says Fenwick to my Lord Stafford again Sir â—tis fit that some should be here present least you fail of your Expectation or to that purpose 'T is two years since and I cannot remember the words but my Lord Stafford did say he was of necessity to go into the Country at that time And there he did write a letter to St. Omers in which he did excuse himself about a young man that was to be sent to the Jesuits Colledge whom he had taken care of another way And he desired their excuse but he would be as faithful to them as any body for all that And the same hand that wrote that letter by all the comparing I could make in my thoughts wrote all the other Letters that I saw at St. Omers and in Spain My Lords I saw my Lord Stafford at Dr. Perrotts I think verily it was in June or July 78. it was before the rising of the Parliament that sat that Summer and my Lord Stafford was discoursing of a Son he was to send over to Lisbon and he went over by the name of Sir John Stafford And after this Discourse was over they fell into a Discourse of the Affairs in hand and my Lord was mighty glad there was so good a Correspondence and Concord though my Lords it was not very great for the Jesuits have an irreconcileable Quarrel with the rest of the Clergy But my Lord did hope that their fair Correspondence might tend highly to the advancing the Catholick Cause But my Lords I have one thing more to speak as to the Discourse at Fenwicks Chamber speaking of the King he said He hath deceived us a great while and we can bear no longer Lord High Stew. Who said so Dr. Oats My Lord Stafford the Gentleman at the Bar. Lord High Stew. When was that At Dr. Perrotts Dr. Oats No I speak of a passage at Fenwick's which I had forgot My Lords this is all I can remember at present M. Foley My Lords I desire he may give an Account what letters my Lord Stafford sent to Fenwick and Ireland to pay money Dr. Oats There was some money returned but it was no great Sum and it was about private business Mr. Morgan was to receive it I chanced to have the money in my own keeping Mr. Fenwick gave it me to pay to Mr. Morgan and the letter in which the Sum was mentioned did give them an Account for it was out of Staffordshire that he found things stand in a very good state there but I being not within Mr. Morgan called on Mr. Fenwick for the money which I returned to him when he had paid it Lord Stafford My Lords I do in the first place desire to know where Mr. Fenwick lived Lord High Stew. Where did Mr. Fenwick live when you saw my Lord at his Chamber and the Commission delivered Dr. Oats His Lordship I suppose knows very well where he lived he lived in Drury-lane Lord Stafford I will submit to any thing if I ever saw the man or heard of him till the Discovery of the Plot. Dr. Oats He came to him by the name of Thompson Lord High Stew. Your Lordship does not observe your Lordship says that you never knew any Fenwick but your Lordship knew one Thompson and that Thompson was Fenwick Lord Stafford I did know one Thompson but that Thompson I knew was an â—nglish Merchant in Brussels and not a Jesuit Dr. Oats I can't say what my Lord knows that he knew Fenwick to be a Jesuit but he knew one Thompson that was Fenwick the Jesuit Lord Stafford I never heard of the Name till this Plot. Dr. Oats But if your Lordships please I will give you a reason why I believe he knew him to be a Jesuit because the Society was very often in their mouths in their Discourses which gives me a ground to believe he knew him to be what he was but my Lord he took his Commission from him Lord Stafford I desire he may be asked L. H. Steward Good my Lord raise your voice for I am come half way to hear you Lord Stafford Pray my Lords give me leave to ask him whether Dr. Oats hath not said several times since I was first imprisoned that he never saw me in his life I think I was imprisoned the 21. of October 78. Dr. Oats I never said any such thing
Lord Stafford I will willingly dye if ever I saw this Doctor in my life Dr. Oats I excuse my Lord for that for I was in another habit and I went by another Name and your Lordships do remember I came in another habit to make the first Discovery Lord Stafford My Lord I never saw his face nor know him nor Fenwick or Thompson otherwise than one Thompson a Merchant at Brussels Dr. Oats But my Lords I have one thing more to say of my Lord Stafford my Lord Stafford went into France I can't say the year but I believe it is within the term of 6 or 7. but he went over to France and it did appear by letters from him that Seignior Con was made choice of to heal the Difference between the Regulars and the Seculars and Seignior Con did come over in the year 76. and there did make a kind of a peace among them which lasted whilst Con stayed here and Con did bring over Messages to which my Lord Stafford if he tells any truth in his own letter did return answers Lord Stafford For the present all I say to it is this I never writ any one letter this 25 years nor had any correspondence with any Jesuit Lord High Steward I beseech your Lordship make me capable of serving your Lordship by letting me hear what you say Lord Stafford My Lord I have a great Cold and can speak no louder I desire to ask this Witness no more Questions at present but I say I never writ any letters to any Priest this 25 years Mr Foley Then my Lords if my Lord hath done we will call another Witness and that is Mr. Edward Turbervile Who was sworn L. H. Steward Look upon the Prisoner Do you know my Lord Stafford Mr. Turbervile Yes my Lord. L. H. Steward Raise your voice and speak deliberately Mr. Treby Give an account of your knowledge and use your own method Mr. Turbervile My Lords in the year 1675. I was perswaded by my Lady Powis and one Morgan that was Confessor to the Family to go to Doway in order to take upon me the Fryars Habit. When I came there instead of Religion I found nothing but Hypocrisie and Villainy among them and quickly grew weary of staying there and with much difficulty I escaped thence to go for England when I came into England I did not think that my Friends would look unkindly upon me because I refused to live in that way that they proposed to me to live in I used all the means I could to have them reconciled and made applications to them that since I could not bear with the life they would have had me lived in they would contrive some way for me being a younger Brother that I might live in the world but they were so averse and inveterate against me that they told me instead of doing any thing for me they would do me all the mischief and prejudice they could and having lived all my time among them I thought the World would receive a Character of me from them who were my Relations as they would please to represent it so having no hopes in England I took a resolution to go into France where I had a Brother that was a Benedictine Monk and I hoped that he being in good repute amongst them might be able to do me some service there When I came to Paris my Brother used all the endeavours imaginable to get me to be of that Order but I having so ill a conceit and opinion of the Order that I was in before and thinking all the rest were the same I was unwilling at all to enter into it And after I had staid there a while I resolved to come over into England My Brother used all the means he could for my accommodation and recommended me to this Noble Lord the Prisoner at the Bar who lodged then at a corner house in a Street which as I remember bears the name of La Rue de Beaufort where I was several times with him in order to come over with him in the Yaught for England After I had been there for a fortnight with this Lord he understanding my condition by my Brother and by the other Fathers of that Convent and imagining I was a fit instrument to be employed on such an occasion propos'd to me a way whereby as he said I might not only retrieve my Reputation with my Relations but also make my self a very happy man and after having exacted from me all the obligations of secresie which I could give him he at length told me in direct terms it was to take away the life of the King of England who was an Heretick and consequently a Rebel against God Almighty I looked upon it as an extraordinary attempt and desired time to consider of it before I would undertake it And I gave him this answer I would give him my resolution at Diep where we were to go on board for England And when I came to take my leave of this Noble Lord at the Bar he was sitting upon a bench and he was troubled with the Gout in his foot at that time And he told me he had some business to go to Versailles and that he should not be in six or seven days at Diep where I was to wait for him After a while I received a letter at Diep from his Lordship wherein he writ word That he had altered his resolution and would go by the way of Calice and that I should hasten to wait on his Lordship at London I have one thing more to observe to your Lordships when I got passage from Diep in a Fisher-boat for England I never came neer my Lord Stafford because being not willing to undertake his proposal I thought my self not safe even from my own Relations and therefore I made my applications to the Duke of Monmouth and his Grace was pleased by letter to recommend me into the French service and by that means I avoided his Lordships further importunity Lord High Steward You say my Lord did propose to you the Killing of the King did he plainly make the proposal in direct terms to kill the King Mr. Turbervile Yes he did my Lord. Lord High Steward What did he offer you to do it Mr. Turbervile Nothing for I would not accept of it I told him it was a matter of great concernment and I ought to consider of it and I took time to think of it and would give him my answer at Diep which he came not to and so there was an end of it Lord High Steward What ingagements of secresie had you given my Lord before he opened himself so plainly to you Mr. Turbervile I gave my Lord my word and my promise that I would not discover it to any person directly nor indirectly my Lord had nothing of an Oath from me L. H. Steward Will you ask him any more Questions Gentlemen Sir Will. Jones No my Lords L. H. Steward Will your
matter mostly arising within my Lord Aston's Family and what Witnesses we shall have from thence your Lordships may easily imagine will not be very favourable to us and if we have not many to this point your Lordships will take into consideration that those who can give the fullest proof here must be those of the Family and the Religion of the Family But my Lords we will call one or two that I believe will give you satisfaction that my Lord the Prisoner was no such stranger to Mr. Dugdale that they have been seen together and alone together and that is the first thing we desire to call Witnesses to Call Mr. Ansell and William Hanson Mr. Hanson was sworn L. H. Steward Where do you live Whose Servant are you Mr. Hanson At Wilnal in Stafford shire L. H. Steward What do you ask him Sir Will. Jones I desire if you be satisfied where he lives that he will tell you whether he hath been at my Lord Aston's and seen my Lord Stafford there L. H. Steward Have you seen my Lord Stafford at my Lord Aston's Mr. Hanson Yes my Lords L. H. Steward When Mr. Hanson A little above two years ago L. Stafford Be pleased he may name the time positively Sir Will. Jones My Lord Stafford is not so well versed in prosecutions of this nature as to know that he is not to interrupt us while we are examining our Witnesses L. H. Steward My Lord your Lordship received no interruption nor must give none Sir Will. Jones My Lords we desire this Witness may be asked whether or no he hath seen Mr. Dugdale and my Lord Stafford at any time together L. H. Steward What say you Mr. Hanson Yes my Lords L. H. Steward When and where Mr. Hanson I cannot justly tell the time L. H. Stew. Can you tell the place Mr. Hanson Yes at my Lord Aston's L. H. Stew. Whereabouts Mr. Hanson In my Lord Aston's Parlour L. H. Stew. And were they alone Mr. Hanson Mr. Dugdale fetched me to my Lord Stafford L. H. Stew. And was no body in the Parlour when Dugdale fetched you to my Lord Mr. Hanson No my Lords I think there was not L. Stafford He thinks there was not Mr. Hanson There was not to my best remembrance Sir W. Jones My Lords will you be pleased to ask him the Occasion why Dugdale fetched him to him Mr. Hanson My Lord had a mind to have a Boy L. H. Stew. What was the occasion that Dugdale did come to fetch you to my Lord Stafford in the Parlour Mr. Hanson To bring the Boy my Lords Yong Hawkins Mr. Dugdale fetched me and the Boy to him it was a Boy that my Lord would have to live with him Sir Will. Jones Can you tell what time of the year it was whether Winter or Summer as near as you can L. H. Stew. Aye What time of the year was it Mr. Hanson Indeed my Lords I cannot tell Sir Will. Jones I desire to ask him whether when he went away he left them together L. H. Stew. Did you leave them together Mr. Hanson To my best remembrance my Lords I did The Boy and I went away together and we left them at my Lord Aston's Parlour-door Sir Will. Jones Call James Ansel L. H. Stew. Nay if you have done with him my Lord Stafford may ask him any Questions L. Stafford My Lords I shall tell you how this thing is There was a report that this Hawkins was a very good running Foot-boy and this was spoken of at my Lord Aston s at Dinner or Supper I don't know which nay severall times about that time it was when my Lord of Danby was Treasurer and his Son my Lord Dunblain was much for Foot-matches and I had a minde to have a Foot-boy to make a match with him and I believe Dugdale at Dinner or Supper did say that he was a good running Lad and I might desire to see him and Dugdale did bring him to me I believe into my Lord Aston's Parlour but there was at least six or seven in the Room besides L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford Was this at that time when your Lordship was at Tixal the 12 of September L. Stafford Pray my Lords I desire to ask him that Question I would know what year it was L. H. Stew. He says it was above two years ago L. Stafford I profess I believe it was one or two years before I was taxed with this Plot. I did never think I should be questioned about this or I could easily have brought witnesses that were by at that time It is true he did come to me but pray what time of day was it Mr. Hanson In the morning I think it was L. Stafford I profess to God it was after Supper as I hope to be saved it was as we were going to bed to the best of my remembrance Sir Will. Jones Did you come into the Parlour after Supper Mr. Hanson I am not sure what time it was Sir Will. Jones If his Lordship please to ask him any more Questions if not we will call another James Ansell who was sworn L. H. Steward What is your Name Witness James Ansell L. H. Stew. Where do you live Mr. Ansell At Heywood in Staffordshire L. H. Stew. Did you live with my Lord Aston Mr. Ansell I have been at my Lords House at Tixal L. H. Stew. But you are not of the Family Mr. Ansell No. L. H. Stew. How far is Heywood from Tixal Mr. Ansell A Mile L. H. Stew. Have you seen my Lord Stafford at Tixal Mr. Ansell I have seen a man they called my Lord Stafford I did not know him but as they told me L. H. Stew. Did you ever see Dugdale in the company of a man they called my Lord Stafford Mr. Ansell Two years ago I was at Tixal and there I saw one that they said was my Lord Stafford walking with Mr. Dugdale whom I did know L. H. Stew. Where was it Mr. Ansell In the Court at Tiaxl walking together L. H. Stew. Were they alone Was there no body else in company Mr. Ansell None that I saw there might be more company but I saw no more Sir Will. Jones Pray my Lords ask how long ago this was Mr. Ansell About Summer was two years Sir Will. Jones If his Lordship will ask him any Questions now we have done he may otherwise we will call another L. Stafford My Lords I have recollected my self as well as I can in so short a time and all I can say is some of my Servants were by I suppose and I do assure your Lordships the other business was above three years ago so the fellow does not know what he does say L. H. Stew. Will you ask him any Questions L. Stafford Pray ask him how long he saw me in the Court with Dugdale L. H. Stew. How long was it Mr. Ansell I cannot tell I did but walk through the Court I came to speak with Mr. Dugdale and he was
prove well enough that there was such a Plot but my Lords withall we did consider when the first Discovery of this Plot was made how afterwards it took cold how rumors were raised against it how there were endeavours to suppress the belief of it and therefore my Lords we do conceive that it is fit we should first settle that that there was a general Plot a Plot of such a Nature as the Articles express Some Objections we thought there might be raised because it hath been so long in the World some years now since the Discovery of it some persons that is some ten or eleven Prosecuted and Atatinted for it and therefore that might have been satisfaction enough that such a Plot there was besides that there have been publick Declarations of the Particulars to the World But being now to proceed before your Lordships in a judicial way We did think fit and we hope your Lordships will approve of it to spend some time in the Proof of the general Plot which we hope will be to the satisfaction of your Lordships and the whole World for we do not think that England only looks into this days Tryal but the whole World one way or other the whole Christian World is concerned in it My Lords after the Publication of these things which were not judicial how far your Lordships will believe them as Judges we know not we will prove it now that their Policies and Contrivances may be laid open to the World And first we offer it to your Lordships because we have made it part of the Charge And secondly we shall do it because we think your Lordships are not obliged to believe things that are in Print till we prove them by Witnesses judicially before you But the main Reason why we do it is because we would touch upon those Endeavours that have been used to make this seem as if it were a kind of State Plot I know not what to call â—t a Chimaera an Imagination and not a real thing This they laboured many ways to effect but we shall prove that it is a very real and a very true one When that Oats first made a Discovery it seems it had not that weight that we think now it will clearly have with your Lordships and had not the Murder of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey followed in the Neck of it the World as it was asleep would have lain so but that awaked us My Lords it fell out in this Case as it did in another when Cateline the Traytor was a great way off Rome and four other Lords with him Cassius Cethegus and others five in all it came to pass that as the great Orator that was at that time said Many were so ignorant that they would not think it many were so unwise they would not believe it some so ill that they would favour it some so much worse that they did Foster it but all of them in not believing it gave strength to the Conspiracy the Treason And so it did here for we look not upon our selves as discharg'd from the Treason when Discover'd but when Prevented My Lords another Reason to induce us into the Proof of the main Plot is this We do not look upon it as a particular Offence as if one Lord was only to be questioned and appear before your Lordships judicially for it he is indeed only before you at this time to receive his Tryal and your Judgment But my Lords this is a Treason of a Faction and of a general Party in the Nation 't is not this or that Lord but a great number 't is not this or that Lord that is mentioned in the Articles but the Conspiracy is of a great Faction This we do think and this makes us so earnest to press the general before your Lordships that we may give satisfaction to your Lordships and the World what this Plot hath been and how carried on every where My Lords The Consequence of that is very great for my Lords if there were a general Design and a general Plot as clearly there was for some were to act in Spain and some in France some in other places some in Ireland Scotland and England and a great number of Jesuits we have a matter of Thirty in Chase about this business I say my Lords if it be so if one Action be in one place and another in another yet if there be a common Consent to accomplish this Plot then what the one does is the Act of All and the Act of All is the Act of every one My Lords The Persons were many and the Places and Times many they acted in and the Designs which they were to accomplish and the means wherewith they were to accomplish them were many too Great and wicked were their Designs to destroy our King to take him out of the World and why upon hopes of better times to them under him that should succeed him Another part of the Design was to destroy not this or that man that stood in their way but the whole Body of the Protestants here in England not a Murder but a Massacre and a Slaughter of all whosoever they were that came near them and none were to escape for if any meant to flee they would be sure to cut them off nay not only to destroy our King though that be the greatest Offence that our Law can take hold off but to destroy our Religion and to destroy us because of our Religon To accomplish this that we may open the generals of it Arms were to be provided Men to be raised an Army was formed in effect and who to Lead and who to Command and who to pay But my Lords not only were Arms to be had here among our selves but a French Aid must be fetch'd in Assistance from France must come too Intelligences and Letters are written and Correspondencies had and Aids promised by the Ministers from thence My Lords 'T is a strange thing that English men should contrive to have an Invasion of Strangers upon their own Country and surely they are the worst Biggots in the world that were so zealous to destroy their own Nation and they were not wise sure to think that if the French did come in they should continue great Lords or great Men and yet thus it was in general It is very strange that it should enter into the heart of any man to destroy so many persons But my Lords if we look upon what did incourage them and what confirmed them in this Design and what they have published to the world about their Religion we shall not wonder at it since they tell us 't is lawful to kill an Heretick King and the King of England is an Heretick they say and so declared so that whosoever would Kill him did a lawful and pious piece of Service to God Nay not only so but a Meritorious and Glorious one too for which they may be Canonized for Saints My Lords
gave us intelligence of several passages that happened in Court how the Duke and the Queen and the chief of the Nobility were of their side how they carried matters several times the ways my Lord Clifford did use and Sir William Godolphin to effect the work and that they did not question but they should get my Lord Treasurer Danby on their side too This was in Coleman's Letters and he had so much allowance for his Intelligence These Letters of his I read several times in the Colledge My Lords afterwards when I came from Rome I saw Abbot Montague again and he said he was very glad to see me and that I was a Priest well but said I what am I the better where is the Employment you promised me when I should come into England He told me I should have it very soon and he was very glad that I had not made my self a Jesuit and he recommended me to Dr. Goffe Confessor to the Queen Mother who said he would do any thing in the world for me and he did not doubt but he should get a preferment for me which Dr. Goffe is now living Truly when I came into England I found all the Popish Clergy of England that I discoursed with of the same opinion that they did not doubt but the Romish Religion would soon come in And besides in the North there was gathering of Money in which I was ordered to be one of the chief men but I was against it I told them I would do nothing in it I thought it was illegal to send any Money beyond Sea they told me it was charity only to repair the College at Doway I told them it was strange that there should be so much Money raised only to repair one College which would serve three or four Colleges and I perswaded Mr. Jenison and all other persons I had to do with not to meddle with it As to this raising of the Money I conceive it may be inferr'd it was for some other private business and I believe was for the carrying on the design As for the Gentleman at the Bar my Lord Stafford I know nothing of my own particular knowledge but only this Therewas one Thomas Smith Sir Edward Smith's Brother that lived at a place not far off the place where I lived who was one that contributed in paying the Money that was then Collecting he was the man that writ a Letter up to my Lord Stafford to complain of two or three Justices of the Peace that were active against Popery upon which there was one that was turned out that I think is now of the Honourable House of Commons Mr. Treby Name him Mr. Smith Sir Henry Calverley The other was not turned out So I asked Smith when I was lately in the Country about it for I heard a rumor that there was a Letter of this Mr. Smiths found in my Lord Staffords Chamber and I was told it by a Parliament Man one Collonel Tempest So said I to him now you will be concerned in the Plot. No said he I care not for that Letter it will signifie nothing for my Lord won't keep by him any thing of any moment I asked him what he knew about my Lord he told me he writ another Letter to my Lord to know whether he would make a conveyance of his Estate away and whether he apprehended they were in danger And he told me his Lordships answer was that several did so but he would not for he expected some sudden change or alteration I asked him what change or alteration he understood by it Sir said he what can be understood by it but an alteration of the Government and Religion I am sure said he my Lord is so wise a Man that he would not write so without some ground This is all I can say to the Gentleman at the Bar and this is true by the Oath I have taken Mr. Treby My Lords I did observe Mr. Smith in the beginning of his Testimony speaking of the Discourse he had at Rome said they told him there was one in the way I presume 't is not uneasy to conjecture who was that one Lord High Stew. It was surely the King Mr. Treby But we would rather have it explained by him himself Mr. Smith Father Anderton and Father Southwell did say that the King was a good man but he was not for their turn and he was the only man that stood in the way Mr. Treby Did they name the King Mr. Smith Yes it was the common Discourse all over the Country Mr. Treby My Lords I desire Mr. Smith in the next place may give an account of the methods they were to use to accomplish this design the firing of the City and the rest Mr. Smith As to the burning of London I heard nothing beyond Seas at all but this it was discoursed that the Papists did it and the like but they denied it and they said it came accidentally in a Bakers House but this I have often heard them say that it was no great matter if it had been all burnt Lord High Stew. Will you ask him any more Questions yet Mr. Treby No we have done with him Lord High Stew. Have you concluded your Evidence Sir Mr. Smith Yes Lord High Stew. My Lord Stafford will your Lordship ask him any Questions Lord Stafford I desire to know how long ago it was my Lord since he was made a Priest Sir Fran. Winn. My Lords with your Lordships leave no man is bound to answer a Question whereby he shall accuse himself therefore under favour the Question is somewhat harsh and we demand your Judgment in it Lord High Stew. What is the Question your Lordship would have asked him L. Stafford I will not ask it since 't is an offence but did not he say he said Mass pray how long ago was that Lord High Stew. I will ask him a Question Are not you a Protestant Mr. Smith Yes my Lord. Lord High Stew. How long have you been so Mr. Smith I have been a Protestant near upon two Years Lord High Stew. How long ago before were you perverted Mr. Smith Some six or seven Years Lord High Stew. That is nine Years That was I suppose about 71. Mr. Smith I was always bred a Protestant and was so abroad till I went towards Rome Lord High Stew. It is not criminal to have been a Priest if he have conformed L. Stafford I have no more to say to him Lord High Stew. Have you any more Questions to ask him L. Stafford No I never saw him before he may be as honest a Gentleman for ought I know as any one here Mr. Treby Then if your Lordship have no more Questions to ask him he may withdraw My Lords The next Witness we produce is to the general still and that is Mr. Stephen Dugdale Lord Stafford Is he only to speak to the general or to me Mr. Treby To the general we shall tell your Lordship
John Trevor Then we desire they may be produced here and the Copies proved upon Oath and then we shall leave them upon your Lordships Table And my Lords we desire likewise at the same time to save another trouble there may be delivered in the Convictions of Reading Lane Knox and others Then Mr. Clare was Sworn and delivered in the Copies of the Records L. H. Stew. What Record is that Mr. Clare It is the Record of the Attainder of Coleman for high Treason L. H. Stew. Did you examine it Mr. Clare I did examine it L. H. Stew. Is it a true Copy Mr. Clare To the best of my understanding it is Here is likewise a Copy of the Record of the Conviction of Ireland Pickering and Grove for high Treason L. H. Stew. Is there Judgment of Attainder entred upon Record Mr. Clare Yes my Lords there is Judgement entred Here is a Copy of the Indictment Conviction and Attainder of Whitebread Fenwick Harcourt Gavan and Turner for high Treason Here is a Copy of the Record of Attainder of Richard Langhorn for high Treason Here is a Copy of the Attainder of Green Berry and Hill for the Murder of Sir Edmond-bury Godfrey Here is a Copy of the Conviction of Mr. Nathaniel Reading for endeavouring to Suborn Mr. Bedlow to retract his Evidence against some of the Lords in the Tower and Sir Henry Tichbourn L. H. Stew. What is the Judgment there Mr. Clare The Judgment is entred upon it and 't is to pay 1000 l. Fine and to be put in and upon the Pillory in the Palace Yard Westminster for an hour with a Paper upon his head written in great Letters For endeavouring Subornation of Perjury Here is a Copy of the Record of the Conviction of Tasbrough and Price for endeavouring to Suborn Mr. Dugdale and Judgment entred upon it And here is a Copy of the Record of Conviction of Knox and Lane for Conspiring to asperse Dr. Oats and Mr. Bedlow Here is the Record of the Conviction of John Giles for barbarously attempting to Assassinate John Arnold Esq one of His Majesties Justices of the Peace and the Judgment entred thereupon is To stand three times on the Pillory with a Paper on his Hat declaring his Offence to pay â—00 l. to the King to lie in Execution till the same be paid and find Sureties for his Good Behaviour during life L. H. Stew. Deliver them all in And if my Lords have occasion to doubt of any thing being left in the Court they will be there ready â—o be used All which were then delivered in Mr. Treby My Lords we humbly desire that the Record of Coleman may be read because there is more of special matter in it than any of the rest and your Lordships may dispose of the others as you please L. H. Stew. Read the Record of Coleman Then the Clerk read in Latin the Record of the Attainder of Edward Coleman formerly Executed for high Treason by him Committed in this horrid Popish Plot which in English is as followeth viz. Of the Term of Saint MICHAEL in the Thirtieth Year of the Reign of King CHARLES the Second c. Middlesex AT another time to wit on VVednesday next after eight days of St. Martin this same Term before our Lord the King at VVestminster by the Oath of Twelve Jurors honest and lawful Men of the County aforesaid Sworn and Charged to Enquire for our said Lord the King and the Body of the County aforesaid it stands presented That Edward Coleman late of the Parish of Saint Margaret VVestminster in the County of Middlesex Gentleman as a false Traitor against the most Illustrious most Serene and most Excellent Prince our Lord CHARLES the Second by the Grace of God of England Scotland France and Ireland King Defender of the Faith c. and his Natural Lord not having the Fear of God in his Heart nor weighing the Duty of his Allegiance but by the instigation of the Devil moved and seduced the cordial Love and the true due and Natural Obedience which true and faithful Subjects of our said Lord the King towards Him our said Lord the King ought and of right are bound to bear utterly withdrawing and devising and with his whole Strength intending the Peace and common Tranquility of this Kingdom of England to disturb and the true Worship of God within this Kingdom of England practised and by Law established to overthrow and Sedition and Rebellion within this Realm of England to move stir up and procure and the cordial Love and true and due Obedience which true and faithful Subjects of our said Lord the King towards Him our said Lord the King should bear and of right are bound to bear utterly to withdraw blot out and extinguish and our said Lord the King to death and final destruction to bring and put the 29 th day of September in the 27 th year of the Reign of our Lord CHARLES the Second by the Grace of God of England Scotland France and Ireland King Defender of the Faith c. at the Parish of St. Margaret VVestminster aforesaid in the County aforesaid falsly maliciously subtilly and traiterously proposed compassed imagined and intended Sedition and Rebellion within this Realm of England to move raise up and procure and a miserable Slaughter among the Subjects of our said Lord the King to procure and cause and our said Lord the King from his Kingly State Title Power and Government of His Realm of England utterly to deprive depose deject and disinherit and Him our said Lord the King to Death and final Destruction to bring and put and the Government of the same Realm and the sincere Religion of God in this Kingdom rightly and by the Laws of this Realm established for his Will and Pleasure to change and alter and the State of this whole Kingdom in its universal parts well instituted and ordained wholly to subvert and destroy and War against our said Lord the King within this Realm of England to levy and to accomplish and fulfil these his most wicked Treasons and traiterous Imaginations and Purposes aforesaid The same Edward Coleman afterwards to wit the said Twenty ninth day of September in the abovesaid Twenty Seventh year of the Reign of our said Lord the King at the Parish of Saint Margaret VVestminster aforesaid in the County of Middlesex aforesaid falsly subtilly and traiterously devised composed and writ two Letters to be sent to one Monsieur Le Chese then Servant and Confessor of Lewis the French King to desire procure and obtain to the said Edward Coleman and other false Traitors against our said Soveragin Lord the King from the said French King his Aid Assistance and Adherence to alter the true Religion in this Kingdom then and still Established to the Superstition of the Church of Rome and to Subvert the Government of this Kingdom of England And afterwards to wit the said Twenty Ninth Day of September in the abovesaid Twenty Seventh Year
of the Reign of our said Lord now King of England c. at the aforesaid Parish of Saint Margaret VVestminster in the County of Middlesex aforesaid falsly and traiterously devised composed and writ two other Letters to be sent to one Monsieur Le Chese then Servant and Confessor of the said French King to the intent that he the said Monsieur Le Chese should intreat procure and obtain to the said Edward Coleman and other false Traitors against our said Soveraign Lord the King from the aforesaid French King his Aid Assistance and Adherence to alter the true Religion in this Kingdom of England then and still Established to the Superstition of the Church of Rome and to Subvert the Government of this Kingdom of England And that the aforesaid Edward Coloman in further prosecution of his Treasons and Traiterous Imaginations and Purposes aforesaid afterwards to wit the same Twenty Ninth Day of September in the abovesaid Twenty Seventh Year of the Reign of our said now Lord the King the aforesaid several Letters from the said Parish of Saint Margaret Westminster in the County of Middlesex aforesaid falsly subtilly and traiterously did send into Parts beyond the Seas there to be delivered to the said Monsieur Le Chese And that the aforesaid Edward Coleman afterwards to wit the First Day of December in the Twenty Seventh Year of the Reign of our Soveraign Lord CHARLES the Second now King of England c. at the aforesaid Parish of Saint Margaret Westminster in the County of Middlesex aforesaid one Letter from the aforesaid Mounsieâ—r Lâ— Chesâ— in answer to one of the said Letters so by him the said Edward Coleman writ and to the said Monsieur Lâ— Cheâ—e to be sent first mentioned falsly subtilly and traiterously received and that Letter so in answer received the Day and Year last abovesaid at the aforesaid Parish of Saint Margaret Westminster aforesaid in the County of Middlesex aforesaid falsly subtilly and traiterously did inspect and read over and that the aforesaid Edward Coleman the Letter aforesaid so by him in answer received in his custody and possession the day and year last aforesaid at the aforesaid Parish of St. Margaret Westminster in the County of Middlesex aforesaid falsly subtilly and traiterously detained concealed and kept By which said Letter the said Monsieur Le Chese the day and year last abovesaid at the aforesaid Parish of St. Margaret Westminster in the County of Middlesex aforesaid signified and promised to the said Edward Coleman to obtain for him the said Edward Coleman and other false Traitors against our said Lord the King from the said French King his Aid Assistance and Adherence And that the aforesaid Edward Coleman afterwards to wit the Tenth day of December in the abovesaid Twenty seventh Year of the Reign of our said Soveraign Lord Charles the Second now King of England c. at the Parish of St. Margaret VVestminster aforesaid in the County of Middlesex aforesaid falsly maliciously subtilly and traiterously did relate and declare his traiterous Designs and Purposes aforesaid to one Monsieur Roâ—vigni then Envoy Extraordinary from the French King to our said most Serene King at the Parish aforesaid in the County aforesaid residing to move and excite him the said Envoy Extraordinary with him the said Edward Coleman in his Treasons aforesaid to partake And the sooner to fulfil and compleat those his wicked Treasons and traiterous imaginations and purposes aforesaid he the said Edward Coleman afterward to wit December 19. in the abovesaid 27 th year of the Reign of our said Lord Charles the Second now King of England c. at the aforesaid Parish of S. Margaret Westminster in the County of Middlesex aforesaid advisedly maliciously subtilly and traiterously did devise compose and write three other Letters to be sent to one Sir William Throgmorton Knt. then a Subject of our now Lord the King of this Kingdom of England and residing in France in Parts beyond the Seas to sollicite him the aforesaid Monsieur Le Chese to procure obtain of the said French King his Aid Assistance and Adherence aforesaid And those Letters last mentioned afterwards to wit the day and year last abovesaid from the aforesaid Parish of St. Margaret Westminster in the County of Middlesex aforesaid to the same Sir William Throgmorton in France aforesaid falsly and traiterously did send and cause to be delivered against the duty of his Allegiance and against the Peace of our said now Lord the King his Crown and Dignity and against the Form of the Statute in such case made and provided Wherefore 〈◊〉 was commanded the Sheriff of the County aforesaid that he should not omit c but that he should take him if c. to answer c And now to wit on Saturday next after eight days of St. Martin this same Term before our Lord the King at Westminster came the aforesaid Edw. Coleman under the Custody of Will. Richardson Gent Keeper of the Gaol of our said Lord the King of Newgate by vertue of the King 's Writ of Habeas Corpus ad Subjiciend c. into whose custody before then for the cause aforesaid he was committed to the Bar here brought in his proper person who is committed to the Marshal c. and presently of the Premisses to him above imposed being asked how he will thereof be acquitted saith that he is in no wise thereof guilty and thereof for good and evil doth put himself upon the Country Therefore let a Jury thereupon come before our Lord the King at Westminster on Wednesday next after fifteen days of St. Martin and who c. to recognize c. because c. the same day is given to the said Edward Coleman c. under the custody of the said Keeper of the Gaol of our said Lord the King of Newgate aforesaid in the mean time committed to be safely kept until c. At which Wednesday next after fifteen days of St Martin before our Lord the King at Westminster came the aforesaid Edward Coleman under custody of the aforesaid keeper of the Kings Gaol of Newgate aforesaid by vertue of a Writ of our Lord the King of Habeas Corpus ad Subjiciend c. to the Bar here brought in his proper person who is committed to the aforesaid Keeper of the Kings Gaol of Newgate aforesaid And the Jurors of the Jury aforesaid by the Sheriff of the County aforesaid hereunto impannelled being called came who being chosen tryed and sworn to speak the Truth upon the Premisses say upon their Oaths that the aforesaid Edward Coleman is guilty of the High Treason aforesaid in the Indictment aforesaid specified in manner and Form as by the said Indictment above against him his supposed and that the aforesaid Edward Coleman at the time of perpetration of the High Treason aforesaid or at any time afterwards had no Goods Chattels Lands or Tenements to the knowledge of the Jurors aforesaid And the aforesaid Edward Coleman
that Resolution Mr. Dugdale Yes I heard every one give their particular full assent At which there was a great Hum L. H. Steward What is the meaning of this For the Honour and Dignity of publick Justice let us not carry it as if we were in a Theatre Mr. Dugdale My Lords Some times in September my Lord Stafford being at Mr. Abnets House in Stafford came once upon a Sunday morning to hear Mass I meeting him at the outward Gate of my Lord Aston's House when he alighted off his Horse after some Discourse he turned to me and told me It was a sad thing we could not say our Prayers but in an hidden manner but e're long if things took effect we should have the Romish Religion established And I at that time did seem to be and really was as glad as any person could be After some time I think it was about the 20. or 21. of September my Lord Stafford sent for me into his lodging Room I think it was by his page or him that waited upon him in his Chamber and he told me I must come to my Lord and I immediately went to his Lordship he was just then arising and dressing he sent his men out and told me he had had a good Accompt from Mr. Evers and other Genlemen that I would be faithful and true to their Intentions about the introducing their Religion He told me he was likewise concerned himself and that in a very high degree and for taking away the Life of the King he offered me at that time for my Charges and Encouragement 500 l. and that I should go in October after to London with him my Lord Stafford and that I should be with him sometimes at London and sometimes at an House of my Lord Aston's about twenty five miles from London and that I should be under the care of him in London and Mr. Ireland and in the Countrey of one Mr. Parsons that knew of the Design I did then shew as much resolution to be faithful to my Lord as I could and that I would be true to what my Lord then engaged me I after went to Mr. Evers and communicated to him what my Lord Stafford said and was something in admiration at my Lord 's offering me such a Sum of Money for I doubted of my Lords Ability to make good Payment He told me that I need not sear it for Mr. Harcourt and Mr. Ireland had Money enough in their hands to defâ—ay that and other Charges and I should not want Money for the carrying it on My Lords I remember that at another time there was a meeting wherein there was a Debate about my going up and other businesses my Lord Stafford was present and there were several there besides I did not knâ—w them all then but in the first place they told me I should be made equal with one Captain Adderly that is since dead and that I should have a Reward in London I understood that the Duke of York my Lord Arundel and my Lord Bellasis and others were to give me it and speaking of the Rewards to those that were ingaged they said there would be Land enough from the Protestants to satisfie all that acted in the Design Another time my Lord Stafford discoursing in a Dining Room in my Lord Aston's House did express his great Zeal and the reason why he was such an Enemy against the King he said both he and my Lord Aston had been great Sufferers for the King and for his Father and that my Lord in particular his Grandfather or his Father had spent 30000 l. in the Kings Service and had no Recompence that he had always shewed himself Loyal to the King but whenever there came any place of Preferment to be disposed of it was rather given to such as had been Traytors and Rebels to the old King and likewise to the King himself than to any that had been had Loyal He said this was his chief Motive if there were not Religion in the Case which was of an higher nature or to that purpose L. H. Stew. When was this last Discourse Mr. Dugdale In September 78. as near as I remember for we had several Discourses L. H. Stew. This was not the time you were at my Lords Chamber Mr. Dugdale No it was in my Lord Aston's Dining Room L. H. Stew. No nor when he sent for you to offer you the 500 l. Mr. Dugdale No not at that time it was another time L. H. Stew. What Month and Year Mr. Dugdale September 78. my Lord. Mr. Foley I desire he may give your Lordships an account what assurance he had of Pardon if he did succeed Mr. Dugdale I was told I need not fear and particularly my Lord Stafford told me I should have a free Pardon for it for the King had been Excommunicated and was likewise a Traytor and a Rebel and an Enemy to Jesus Christ L. H. Steward But how could you be Pardoned From whom were you to have that Pardon Mr. Dugdale I was to be Pardoned by the Pope L. H. Stew. That was for your Sins Mr. Dugdale Yes I expected no other if I had gone on Mr. Treby Were you promised nothing else but a Pardon from the Pope Mr. Dugdale Yes I was to be Sainted Sir Will. Jones Will his Lordship please to ask him any Questions we ask him no more Mr. Foley Yes I desire another Question may be asked him that he would give an account of the Letters my Lord Stafford writ to Evers about the Design L. H. Stew. What say you to that Question Mr. Dugdale There came a Letter to Evers from my Lord Stafford I knew it to be my Lords hand some might counterfeit his hand but as near as a man can swear to the hand of another in a Paper he did not see written that was my Lords-hand That things went all well beyond Sea and so he did hope they did here for the carrying on of the Design it was to this purpose expresly Mr. Treby We have done my Lords with him Lord High Steward My Lord Stafford will you ask him any Questions L. Staff My Lords I have divers Questions to ask him very many but I humbly crave your Lordships Directions if I ask him any Questions now whether I may not ask him some afterwards L. H. Steward My Lord you may ask Questions of the Witnesses as often as you please and when ever you find it useful to you God forbid there should be any time to foreclose a man from asking a Question that may save his life L. Staff I pray he may be asked how long before this time he knew of the Plot. L. H. Steward How long have you known this Plot Mr. Dugd. In general for the introducing of the Popish Religion and the incouragement to it by the Duke of Yorks being Successor I have known it 15 or 16 years by the means of Mr. Evers L. Staff My Lords I understand him he says
Representative Body of the Commons of England and I confess my Lords to be accused by them was a load especially being added to what lay before upon me more especially to my â—eak Body and weaker mind that I was so afflicted with it and have so continued that I am scarce able to bear up under it For I look upon the House of Commons as the great and worthy Patriots of this Kingdom I ever held them so and I hold them so still My Lords These things being such great afflictions to me and some other accidents which I shall not trouble your Lordships with the telling you of have so much disordered my sense and reason which before was little that I scarce know how to clear my self to your â—ordships as I ought to do or which way to go about the doing of it therefore I do with all humility beg your Lordships pardon if I say any thing that may give an offence or urge that which may not be to the purpose All which I desire you would be pleased to attribute to the true Cause my want of understanding not of innocency or a desire to make it appear My Lords These Gentlemen the Managers of the House of Commons who are great and able men some I am sure if not all of them very well read and have understanding in the Law have set forth to your Lordships Treason in an horrid shape but I confeâ—s my Lords if they had made it never so much worse it cannot be so horrid as I have often fancied it my self for my Lords I do and did ever hold Treason to be the greatest sin in the World and I cannot use words enough to express it and therefore I hope you will give me leave to clear my self of it and I shall give you one Notion of it which I heard at your Lordships Bar some years ago where you were pleased to here several people of several perswasions give you some reason why Liberty of Conscience should be allowed them And I remember one of them an Anabaptiâ—t I think did tell you that they held Treason to be the sin of Witchcraft and so do â— And next to Treason I hold Murder to be the worst sin But the Murder of the King I looked upon to be so above all others that it is not to be expressed by words My Lords I have heard very much of a thing that was named by these Gentlemen of the House of Commons and that very properly too to wit of the Gun-powder Treason My Lords I was not born then but some years after I heard very much Discourse of it and very various Reports and I made a particular inquiry perhaps more than any one person did else both of my Father who was aâ—ive then and my Uncle and others and I am satisfied and do clearly believe by the Evidence I have received That that thing called the Gun-powder Treason was a wicked and horrid Design among the rest of some of the Jesuits and I think the malice of the Jesuits or the Wit of man cannot offer an excuse for it it was so execrable a thing Besides my Lords I was acquainted with one of them that was concerned in it who had his pardon and lived many years after I discoursed with him about it and he confessed it and said he was sorry for it then and I here declare to your Lordships that I never heard any one of the Churâ—h of Rome speak a good word of it it was so horrid a thing that it cannot be expressed nor excused And God Almighty shewed his Judgments upon them for their wickedness for hardly any of the Persons or their Posterity are left that were concâ—rned in it and even a very great Family too that had collaterally something to do in it is in the Male line extinct totally and I do think God Almighty always shews his Judgments upon such vile Actions And I have been told all those persons that were engaged in this wicked Act were all heartily sorry for it and repented of it before they died without which I am sure there is no Salvation And therefore I think it was not the Interest of Religion but a private Interest put them upon it My Lords As to the Doctrine of King-killing and Absolving persons from their Allegiance I cannot say the Church of Rome does not hold it I never heard it did hold it it may be it does it may be not I say not one thing or other but my Lords there was an English Colledge of Priests at Rhemes that translated the Bible and printed it with Authority according to their Translation and in their Annotations upon the fourteenth Chapter of the Epistle to the Romans they do declare their dislike and detestation of that Opinion They say all Subjects ought to obey their Kings as the 〈◊〉 mitive Christians did the Heathen Princes of the Empire and the learned Doctors of the Colledge of Sorbonne did upon an occasion administred to them about that Opinion declare the mistakes that were in it and owned it to be a damnable Principle My Lords I have an Authentical Copy of that Decree of the Sorbonists whether it be here or no I can't tell Yes here it is which does declare that a damnable Position and there is lately come out a Book written by a Priest of the Church of Rome tryed for his life for being in the Plot but acquitted of that in which he says that that Opinion of killing Kings is damnable and herettical and declared so by the Council of Trent My Lords This gives me occasion to believe that the Church of Rome holds it not I do not say that it does not but some particular persons do abhor it which are great in that Church and which weighs far with me but that which further most of all confirms me in my ill Opinion of it is the words of our Saviour when not only he commands us to give unto Caesar the things that are Caesars but asserts our Obedience to our Governours in many other passages of the Holy Scripture and what I find there the whole World is not able to alter my Opinion of I do assure your Lordships in the presence of Almighty God That I do extreamly admire when I hear of any thing like it and I did read with great horror what I found the other day in the Gazette of some imprudent people in Scotland and of their wicked Principles and Practices My Lords I do in the presence of Almighty God who knows and sees all things and of his Angels which are continually about us and of your Lordships who are my Peers and Judges solemnly profess and declare that I hate and detest any such Opinion as I do damnation to my self And I cannot be more desirous of Salvation to my self than I am cordial in hating this Opinion My Lords I know no person upon Earth nor all the persons in the world put together nor all the Power
that you were much spent in Discourse and Tired with what already you have done My Lords are extreamly willing to give your Lordship all the Favour and Accommodation possible for the Recollecting your self therefore my Lords will not now put you upon it to go on to make your Defence but will give you time till to Morrow L. Stafford I humbly give your Lordships thanks for your kindness and Favour to me but here I profess and call Almighty God to witness rather than I would have it thought I am willing to put it off I would have sunk down Dead at the Bar. But my Lords there was another Demand that I made Your Lordships say I shall have Copies of all the Journals and that you cannot help me to the Affidavit of Turbervile I submit to it without saying one word more but I desire that I may have brought hither to Morrow the Journals and other Papers in the Lords House but I desire also the two Affidavits of Dugdale taken the one the 24. the other the 29. of December following which Depositions were taken before Mr. Lane and Mr. Vernon in Stafford Town when Dugdale was in Prison L. H. Stew. Look you my Lord This is all under the same Rule What Evidence soever there is before the Court of Peers that you shall have whatsoever Evidence is not in that Court you ought to come provided of the Court is not to stay nor to help you to Evidence L. Staff My Lord I beg your pardon Dugdale made an Affidavit then and says the clean contrary now I desire nothing but Justice and I am sure I shall have all Justice from your Lordships L. H. Stew. Produce it and alledge what you will for your self it shall be heard L. Staff How then shall I be able to make my Defence if I have not those Papers which I humbly concieve by the Law ought to be brought These Gentlemen of the House of Commons say That I could not have Turbervile's Affidavit because it was in the House and they could not give it without consent of the House but this was examined before a Justice of Peace and returned to the Council Sure I shall have that I was examined by my Lord of Essex and my Lord of Bridgewater upon that Affidavit twice I think therefore that is material and necessary and I know your Lordships would not have me come to defend my self without Weapons L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford I do beseech your Lordship to be a little better informed in your own Business You have leave to make use of the Journal and all Papers that are entred there the Clerks say Dugdale's Oath is entred there L. Stafford Is the 24. of December there Clerk It is there L. H. Stew. Pray my Lord do not put the Court upon Interrogatories but come provided as well as you can L. Stafford If it be entred on the Journal Book I desire not the Original I am very well satisfied L. H. Stew. Will you be ready to go on to morrow my Lord L. Stafford I will withall my heart L. H. Stew. 'T is too late Gentlemen to go on to Night we must Adjourn till to Morrow Lord Stafford My Lords I had so much to write last Night that I had very little sleep I desire I may not come till Ten. L. H. Stew. My Lord I am not able to hear you I take as much pains to come near you as I can L. Stafford I had a great deal to write last Night I say and I want some sleep I desire I may not come till Ten. L. H. Stew. Will you be ready by Ten a Clock to Morrow L. Stafford I will be ready by Ten. L. H. Stew. I will move my Lords when they are withdrawn to Adjourn till Ten to Morrow But my Lord Stafford I do not know how your Lordship is provided or how you look after your own Business If you have not had Copies of the Journal all this while 't is you are in the fault A great deal of it is in Print you may send your Solicitor to the Clerk of the Parliament and take Copies of what you have need of I give you notice of it that if you come unprovided you may know it is your own fault L. Stafford I do acknowledge I have Copies of the Journal Book I think of all but I do not find any thing of Dugdale's second Deposition there L. H. Stew. Here is that of the 24. of December that you ask after send your Solicitor and then you shall have a Copy out of the Journal of it L. Stafford I assure your Lordship I will be ready to morrow if I can get those Copies Lord High Steward My Lords will give you as much Ease and all the Accommodations that are fit L. Stafford Then to morrow I will be ready by Ten a Clock if your Lordships please only I would desire your Lordships to take notice that these Gentlemen of the House of Commons do acknowledge that Turbervile swore one day to one year and the next day to another L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford you say you can be ready to morâ—ow at Ten a Clock Are you sure you can be ready then L. Stafford I say my Lords this I shall not be so ready as I shall be next day but I assure your Lordships I will rather sink down in the place where I am if you think fit than put off the Tryal L. H. Stew. Look you Gentlemen of the House of Commons in a Case of this consequence and of this Vital Importance to a Man as this is where is the inconvenience if there should be a days respite and the Court should Adjourn till Friday if my Lords be moved in it I make no direction but what inconvenience will be in it Will it not be every way as well Sir Will. Jones My Lords your Lordships does not expect from us to give our consent to put off the Tryal L. H. Stew. I ask only what inconvenience it is Sir Will. Jones Your Lordships are the Judges and will do as you find it reasonable but this I say it is very unusual and scarce to be Presidented that when the Prosecutors have given an Evidence the Prisoner should have time a further considerable time to give his Answer to it the Prisoner knows before hand the general Scope and Drift of the Evidence therefore for him to have time till to morrow is a favour but to have more than that even a whole day to intervene is very unusual L. H. Stew. If that be all and the matter depend upon what is usual I do venture with my Lords leave to inform you that my Lord of Strafford had two days time after the Prosecution to give his Answer to what was said against him Sir William Jones That was an Evidence upon Twenty Eight Articles this but upon Two Heads and that was after a long Examination of many days L. Stafford My Lords
I had prepared my self for my Tryal as well as I could and had written down a few things that I intended to say and I profess before God as I am a Man and as I am a Christian of all I intended to say I have in a manner made use of very few words but as to what I had to say upon the Evidence I was forced to lay all aside because I wanted these Papers I have not eaten to day and being forced to lay aside all that I had written I shall need a whole day to write however I submit my self to your Lordships in that matter Lord High Steward My Lord if it be equal to your Lordship and your Lordship will be as ready to morrow as another day this Court will be more ready L. Stafford I assure your Lordships if your Lordships do give me another day I will not debate with my Counsel any one thing upon the Papers I have asked Lord High Steward Pray my Lord will you be pleased to make your demand to my Lords who are your Judges by what time you will be content to be foreclosed Lord Stafford My Lords if you will give me till Friday I shall be ready to give my Evidence and I will bring Witnesses sufficient I hope to prove my Innocency Sir Will. Jones My Lords we do not presume at all to offer our consent to what time the Court shall be Adjourned L. H. Stew. No we do not ask your Consent Sir Will. Jones And I hope your Lordships will not ask the Prisoners consent nor do it by his direction L. H. Stew. De morte hominis non est cunctatio longa Sir Will. Jones But we must desire your Lordships as we are entrusted by the House of Commons to Manage this Tryal to take notice that as we do not expect your Lordships should take the Measures from our Desires much less do we expect you should do it at the only instance of the Prisoner 'T is a great advantage to this Lord to choose his own time when he will please to answer our Evidence We do know very well that in this Case there have been Attempts to Suborn Witnesses and that we shall prove in due time and Attempts to destroy Witnesses too So that there hath been too much time lost already and I think to morrow is a very convenient time for him to make his Answer And I must observe to your Lordships that the Prisoner hath gained his end of not making his Answer this day by raising an Objection which in my Thoughts carried no great weight in it though when it was made your Lordships were pleased to Adjourn upon it But seeing he hath got his Point of deferring the making Answer till to morrow there can be no reason he should gain a further day since the Depositions may be ready by to morrow as well as by the next day And therefore we desire your Lordships will be pleased to go on in the Tryal to morrow L. H. Stew. You shall know their Lordships pleasure when they are withdrawn Is it your Lordships pleasure that we should Adjourn Lords Ay Ay. L. H. Stew. This House is Adjourned into the Parliament Chamber So the Lords withdrew in their Order and the Commons went back to their House and Mr. Speaker resumed the Chair A Message was sent from the Lords by Sir Timothy Baldwin and Sir Samuel Clark Mr. Speaker The Lords have sent us to acquaint this House that they have ordered the Prisoner William Viscount Stafford to be brought to the Bar in Westminster-Hall to morrow morning at Ten of the Clock And then the Commons Adjourned to Eight of the Clock next morning The Third Day Thursday December 2. 1680. AT the Hour of Ten in the Morning the Lords Adjourned into Westminster-Hall and returned in their former Order into the Court there erected and Mr. Speaker having left the Chair the Commons were seated as before The Court being sat Proclamation for Silence was made and the Lieutenant of the Tower commanded to bring his Prisoner to the Bar which being done the Lord High Steward spake to him as followeth L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford this is the time appointed to hear what your Lordship hath to say in your Defence and to call your Witnesses Sir Will. Jones My Lords yesterday my Lord Viscount Stafford was pleased to make mention of an Affidavit of Mr. Turbervile taken before two Justices of the Peace wherein he was pleased to say there was some Amendment made and so indeed we did then acknowledg there was But he had a desire to see it notwithstanding our acknowledgment because he was informed that that which Turbervile swore then differed from what Turbervile swore yesterday My Lords at that time we had not the Affidavit nor was it proper for us to produce it for indeed it remained in the Justice of Peace's Hands that took it but now that his Lordship may have full satisfaction and not only his Lordship but also all that are present at this Tryal I do inform his Lordship that the Affidavit is in the hands of a Member of the House of Commons Sir Will. Poulteney by name and if his Lordship please he may have it produceed and make what use he can of it L. H. Stew. 'T is extream Honourably and Worthily done of the House of Commons and my Lord hath no manner of Exception left him L. Stafford My Lords if I shall have occasion to use it I shall call for it but I would first say something to your Lordships My Lords I first give your Lordships thanks for granting me the liberty to come so late to Day I have had a little sleep upon it Your Lordships heard yesterday when you had Dr. Oats at the Bar the first thing that he said as I remember was to desire you would be pleased to leave him to his own method I beg of your Lordships the same favour that I may begin with the one or the other Witnesses or with matter of Law as I please L. H. Steward God forbid but you should take your own Method in your Defence L. Stafford In order to which I desire first Mr. Turbervile may come to the Bar. L. H. Stew. Do you call Turbervile my Lord L. Stafford Yes my Lord I do L. H. Stew. He is there what say you to him L. Stafford My Lords I will ask him but one Question and I hope I shall have occasion to ask him no more When was the last time that he spoke with me L. H. Stew. Mr. Turbervile I think I hear right I do not know My Lord Stafford asks when was the last time you spoke with his Lordship Mr. Turbervile It was in November 1675. L. Stafford I have very much to say against his Evidence but I hope your Lordships will not think him any Evidence against me or any body else But I desire your Judgment whether I be not within the compass of the time limited
me to the White Horse in Ridgley and there when I came to him he told me I knew as much of the Plot as he I told him I was innocent of the thing he swore God damn him that I knew as much as he Then I told him if he knew no more than I did he knew no more than my Lord Mayor's great Horse did Then he took me aside Come says he you are a poor man and live poorly I can put you in a way whereby you may live gallantly I will give you 50 l. in hand if so be you will do so and so and 50 l. more when the thing is done L. H. Stew. What do you mean by so and so Morrall To swear against Mr. Howard Sir James Symons and several other Gentlemen of the Country L. H. Stew. Did he offer you any mony to swear against my Lord Stafford Morrall No I did not hear him mention any thing of him L. H. Stew. But he offered you mony to swear against Symons and Howard Morrall Yes my Lord and Herbert Aston my Lord Aston's Kinsman L. H. Stew. What were you to swear Morrall That they were at such a Meeting at Mr. Herbert Aston's upon the Conspiracy of the Plot. L. H. Stew. Will you ask him any thing Managers No set him by Then another Witness stood up L. H. Steward What is your Name Witness Samuel Holt. L. H. Stew. What Profession are you L. Stafford Pray my Lords ask him whether Dugdale would perswade him to swear that which he knew not L. H. Steward What Profession are you of Holt. A Protestant of the Church of England L. H. Stew. What Trade Holt. A Blacksmith L. H. Stew. Where do you live Holt. At Tixal L. H. Stew. Are you my Lord Aston's Servant Holt. No my Lords L. H. Stew. What say you Holt. My Lords he sent a man and a Horse for me to Stafford to the Star L. H. Stew. Who did Holt. Mr. Dugdale did And there I waited upon him a good while At length he came and told me he must speak with me privately so he told me if I would swear that VValter Moor carried Evers away he would give me 40 l. And he bid me not be afraid to swear for fear of my Lord Aston for he would hire me an Horse and get me to London and place me that where I got one shilling I should g et five L. H. Stew. Did you know Evers Holt. Yes my Lords I have seen him L. H. Stew. Do you know when he went away from Tixal Holt. No my Lords L. H. Stew. What else can you say Holt. Nothing else L. H. Stew. Will you ask him any Questions Gentlemen Managers No. L. Stafford T' e next thing I go upon is that Stephen Dugdale at the Tryal of the five Jesuits swore That he acquainted Sambidge with the Letter about the death of Sir Edmundbury Godsrey the Munday or Tuesday after which Mr. Sambidge denies And in order to that I call Mr. Sambidge but if your Lordships please I shall first prove that hâ— swore it then Where is Mr. Lydcott who stood up I desire to ask him whether Dugdale did swear at the Tryal of the five Jesuits that he acquainted Mr. Sambidge with the Letter about the death of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey L. H. Stew. You fellow Witness My Lord. L. H. Stew. What is your Name VVitness John Lydcott L. H. Stew. How do you live Lydcott I am a Fellow of Kings Colledge in Cambridge L. H. Stew. What do you come to say Lydcott I don't know my Lords what my Lord will ask me Sir VVill. Jones My Lords before you enter into the examination of this man we desire to ask him a Question or two Mr Serj. Mayn Whose Servant are you or were you lately Lydcott I am Fellow of Kings Colledge Mr. Serj. Maynard But whom did you serve lately were you never Secretary to a Lord Lydcott Yes I was Mr. Serj. Mayn To what Lord Lydcott To my Lord Castlemain Sir L. H. Stew. What Religion are you of Lydcott Of the Church of England and always was nay I can't say always for I was bred up a Presbyterian my Father was a Colonel under Monk L. Stafford Mr. Lydcott I ask whether you did not hear Mr. Dugdale swear at the Tryal of the five Jesuits Mr. Serj. Mayn I desire one favour my Lords my Lord Stafford asks Questions to lead the Witness pray let him ask his Questions more generally L. H. Stew. You say you are a Protestant Lydcott Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. When did you last receive the Sacrament Lydcott When I was last at Cambridge No not so for it is not above a year ago that I was there L. H. Stew. When then did you receive the Sacrament Lydcott I do not exactly remember my Lords L. H. Stew. My Lord I would be glad to know what is the Question your Lordship calls him for that your Lordship may not ask the Question but by me L. Stafford My Lords I desire to know for my part I know not what his Answer will be whether he did hear at the Tryal of the five Jesuits Dugdale swear he had communicated the news of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey's death which was on the Saturday on the Tuesday after to any people and to whom L. H. Stew. Were you at the Tryal of the five Jesuits Lydcott Yes I was L. H. Stew. Did you hear Dugdale swear there and give his Testimony Lydcott Yes I did L. H. Stew. Do you remember what Dugdale swore then Lydcott Very well L. H. Steward What was it Lydcott My Lords Mr. Dugdale spoke of a Letter that came down to my Lord Aston's on the Munday and he imparted it on the Tuesday after at an Ale-house to one Mr. Sambidge and Mr. Philips This was also at Sir George Wakeman's Tryal which I took notice of more particularly because I had occasion to take some Notes there L. H. Stew. What use do you make of this my Lord L. Stafford If that be allowed to be so then I will call no more Witnesses otherwise I have more L. H. Stew. Call them all Lord Stafford Then call Mr. Charles Gifford Mr. Serj. Mayn Pray my Lords give me leave to ask this young Scholar one Question before he goes By whose commendation or means did you come into that Colledge Lydcott By Election from Eaton Mr. Serj. Mayn Who promoted you Lydcott One Mr. Doyley now Senior Fellow of Kings Colledge it was his Election Sir Fran. Winn. My Lords I would ask him one Question He says he went to take Notes by whose direction did he go to take Notes at Sir George Wakeman's Tryal Lydcott It was for my own curiosity L. H. Stew. Friend 't is all one as if you were upon your Oath and as penal to you by whose direction did you go Lydcott It was partly my own curiosity and partly to see what Evidence was against my Lord for my Lord Castlemain thought himself concerned as
serve him in case he shall need it Made at the Camp before Air this 4. of August 1676. Sheldon L. H. Steward What is the date of that Discharge Turbervill Mr. Turbervill 'T is in August 76. L. Stafford May I see it my Lords L. H. Stew. Yes deliver it to my Lord which was done and he looked upon it L. Stafford The thing looks like truth but there is no proof of it Mr. Turbervill The Seal is a little broke but the Name remains perfect L. Stafford He says here is a dismission from the Army in 76. how will that rectifie this mistake about 73. I understand not that Then the Court called for the Paper and it was looked upon by the Duke of Monmouth and some other Lords L. H. Stew. My Lord this Paper hath been looked upon the Hand is well known by those that should know it L. Stafford I do not say the contrary L. H. Stew. Whereabouts are you now my Lord then L. Stafford I am extreamly faint and weary that I am sure of This Gentleman told you yesterday that he spoke with me several times in France and that he was conversant with me for a fortnight together that he visited me and I proposed the Killing of the King to him and that he refused to give me an Answer then but told me he would give it me at Diep This he said yesterday as I remember And afterwards when he was gone down he came up again and desired to put your Lordships in mind of a particular Circumstance which he said he did remember That when he came to me I had the Gout and was in a lower Room of the House in such a Street which faced Luxenburgh House all which I stand not upon and that the Prince of Conde lived in the same Street on the left hand he said first and after on the right hand and after he knew not where and that I did lodge in the same Street Mr. Turbervill I did say I believed the Prince of Conde lived there but was not positive L. Stafford No but first he swears a thing and then only believes it Be pleased to call my Servants to know if ever I had my Foot ill of the Gout in my life Mr. Turbervill Your Lordship told me it was the Gout Lord Stafford If ever I put my Foot on a Stool or was lame there I will own all that he says But when a man swears his Evidence and goes down from the place and then invents and comes up again to tell new stories who shall believe such a man Mr. Turbervill I never went from the Bar. Lord Stafford I do say yâ—â— went down and had given all your Evidence and came up again and told this Circumstance I have not been lame not one moment these forty years and yet this Fellow this impudent Fellow to say that I was lame and put my Foot on a Stool He does not my Lords swear positively in any thing but this and this I can easily disprove in him L. H. Steward What say you to this particular Turbervill Had my Lord Stafford never the Gout while he was in France Mr. Turbervill He told me it was the Gout my Lords He had a great lameness he could not go from one place to another Here are several people to give Testimony that my Lord was lame within less time than he says Mr. Foley Hold hold Turbervill you must not give that Evidence now L. Stafford Call Nicholas Furnese again L. H. Steward What do you call him for L. Stafford Ask whether ever he saw Mr. Turbervill with me in France L. H. Stew. Were you with my Lord Stafford all the while he was in France Furnese Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. Did you never see Turbervill there Furnese No. L. H. Stew. Pray did you never see Father Anthony Turbervill there Furnese No my Lords I never heard of his Name L. Stafford Was I ever one moment lame while I was in France Furnese Not that I remember L. H. Stew. How long was my Lord there Furnese About three Months L. H. Stew. What time of the year Furnese At Paris in October and November in December at Rohan in January we came over into England L. Stafford Ask him if ever I put my Foot upon a Cushion or upon a Stool for lameness Lord. High Steward Mr. Turbervill did you ever see Furnese when you were in France Mr. Turbervill This Man my Lords L H. Stew. Yes Mr. Turbervill No not that I remember L. H. Stew. In what quality did you serve my Lord in France Furnese Furnese My Lords I waited on him in his Chamber L. H. Stew. Do you remember any other Servant of my Lords that you did see there Mr. Turbervill Truly my Lords I don't remember I might forget him Lord Stafford So I believe thou dost me too Mr. Turbervill Your Lordship that could call me Coward may say any thing L. Stafford You shall be as valiant as Hector if you will Pray call my other Boy Who stood up L. H. Stew. You little Boy were you all the while with my Lord that he was in France Leigh Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. Did you ever see Turbervill there Leigh No my Lords not that I know of L H. Stew. Had my Lord the Gout in France Leigh No nor never had since I have been with him L. H. Stew. That is six years Leigh Seven years almost my Lords L. H. Stew. Are you sure of that Leigh I am sure of it L. Stafford Now my Lords Mr. Turbervill says I writ him a Letter to Diep which Letter he can't find I beseech you what were the Contents of the Letter L. H. Stew. What were the Contents of the Letter my Lord sent you Mr. Turberv The Contents of the Letter were that I should not stay at Diep in expectation of him for he had appointed a Yatcht to come to Calice but I should make what haste I could to London and there I should meet with him L. Stafford I desire to ask whether I sent him word that Count Gramont came over with me Mr. Turbervill Yes my Lords to the best of my remembrance L. Stafford I shall now bring Witnesses that I did not come by Calice but by Diep and Count Gramont came not with me L. H. Stew. Mr. Turbervill which way came you from Diep or from Calice Mr. Turbervill From Diep my Lords L. Stafford And I came from Diep too L. H. Stew. My Lord came that way too he says Mr. Turbervill I know not of it he sent me word otherwise L. Stafford I shall now prove what I say pray call Mr. Wyborne VVho stood up L. H. Stew. What do you ask him my Lord L. Stafford Whether he did not see me at Diep and embark from thence for England Mr. VVyborne My Lords I will give you an Account as well as I can In the year 75. in December I had occasion to go over into France upon my own Concerns and
enquiring where there was a conveniency to go over I heard that a Yatcht was sending to Diep for my Lord Stafford and Mr. Henry Sidney His Majesties Envoy Extraordinary now in Holland I took that occasion and we weighed Anchor on Friday the 24. of December and it being foul weather and we being tossed long upon the Sea we did not come to an Anchor before Diep till Sunday was sevennight at Two a Clock in the Afternoon which was January 2. Then I came with the Captain immediately ashoar to enquire for my Lord and Mr. Sidney I enquired for my Lord and they told me he was at Rohan expecting to hear of the arrival of the Yatcht upon which the Captain desired me to write a Letter to my Lord and I did so upon sight of which Letter he came to Diep on Tuesday in the Afternoon which was as I take it the 4. of January and we were at the Bastile there then together when he came that evening and the next day I went on my own occasions to Paris and my Lord and Mr. Sidney did come over together in the Yatcht L. Stafford If you please I will call my two Servants again to this matter Lord. High Steward Call them my Lord. Then Furnese and Leigh stood up Lord High Steward Which way came my Lord Stafford out of France into England by Diep or by Calice Furnese By Diep L. H. Steward What say you Boy which way came my Lord Leigh By Diep my Lords L. H. Steward You came with him Leigh Yes we did L. H. Stew. My Lord The Question is not whether you came by Calice or no but whether you writ a Letter to him to Diep that you would go by Calice Lord Stafford He swore yesterday that I did come by Calice L. H. Stew. Do you say my Lord came by Calice Mr. Turbervill My Lords I had a Letter from his Lordship which he wrote to me that he would come by Calice L. Stafford He did not name the Letter yesterday nor is 't in the Information L. H. Stew. Read the Affidavit The Information of Edward Turbervill of Skerr in the County of Glamorgan Gent. WHo saith That being a younger Brother about the Year 1672 he became Gentleman Usher to the Lady Mary Molineaux Daughter to the Earl of Powis and by that means lived in the House of the said Earl about three Years and by serving and assisting at Mass there grew intimate with William Morgan Confessor to the said Earl and his Family who was a Jesuit and Rector over all the Jesuits in North-Wales Shropshire and Staffordshire And he during the three years time often heard the said Morgan tell the said Earl and his Lady that the Kingdom was in a high Fever and that nothing but Blood-letting could restore it to Health and then the Catholick Religion would flourish Whereunto the said Earl many times replied It was not yet time but he doâ—â—ted not but such means should be used in due time or words to that effect And he heard the Lady Powis tell the said Morgan and others publickly and privately That when Religion should be restored in England which she doubted not but would be in a very short time she would persuade her Husband to give 300 l. per annum for a Foundation to maintain a Nunnery and this Informant was persuaded by the Lady Powis and the said Morgan to become a Fryar the said Lady enâ—ouraging this Informant thereunto by saying that if he would follow his Studies and make himself capable she questioned not but he might shortly be made a Bishop by her Interest in England because upon Restauration of the Catholick Religion there would want People fit to make Bishops and to do the Business of the Church and thereupon she gave this Informant Ten Pounds to carry him to Doway where this Informant entred the Monastery and continued about three weeks and with much difficulty made his escape thence and returned for England for which the said Earl and his Lady and all the rest that encouraged him to go to the Monastery became his utter Enemies threatning to take away his Life and to get his Brother to disinherit him which last is compassed against him And Father Cudworth who was than Guardian of the Fryars at Doway some days before his escape thence told this Informant That if he should not persevere with them he should lose his life and friends And further added That this King should not last long and that his Successor should be wholly for their purpose And Father Cross Provincial of the Fryars told this Informant That had he been at Doway when this Informant made his escape thence he should never have come to England And this Informant finding himself friendless and in danger in England went to Paris where one of his Brothers is a Benedictine Monk who persuaded this Informant to return for England and in order thereunto about the latter end of November 1675. he was introduced into the acquaintance of the Lord Stafford that he might go for England with his Lordship and three weeks he attended his Lordship and had great access and freedom with his Lordship who gave him great assurances of his Favour and Interest to restore him to his Relations esteem again And said That he had a piece of service to propose to this Informant that would not only retrieve his Reputation with his own Relations but also oblige both them and their Party to make him happy as long he lived And this informant being desirous to embrace so happy an Opportunity was very inquisitive after the means but the said Lord Stafford being somewhat difficult to repose so great a Trust as he was to communicate to him exacted all the Obligations and Promises of secresie which this Informant gave his Lordship in the most solemn manner he could invent Then his Lordship laboured to make this Informant sensible of all the advantages that would accrue to this Informant and the Catholick Cause and then told this Informant in direct terms that he might make himself and the Nation happy by taking away the Life of the King of England who was a Heretick and consequently a Rebel against God Almighty Of which this Informant desired his Lordship to give him time to consider and told his Lordship that he would give him his Answer at Diep where his Lordship intended to ship for England and to take this Informant with him but this Informant going before to Diep the Lord Stafford went with Count Gramont by Calice and sent this Informant orders to go for England and to attend his Lordship at London but this Informant did not attend his Lordship at London but went into the French service and so avoided the Lord Stafford's further importunities in that Affair And this Informant further saith That one Remige a French woman and vehement Papist who married this Informants Brother lived with the Lady Powis all the time this Informant resided there
for this is for January L. Stafford My Lords Is it your Lordships pleasure I may have Pen Ink and Paper allowed me L. H. Stew. Yes yes give my Lord Pen Ink and Paper which they did Then the Lord High Steward looked upon the Council-Book L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford In this Council-Book as far as we can inform our selves by the Table of it there is nothing at all of it it must be the Council-Book in September Sir Will. Jones We have no other Book but that L. H. Stew. Why did not your Lordship send all this while to the Council Table for any thing that was material but give the Court the trouble to be interrupted upon your Inquiries L. Stafford My Lords you may do what you please I did not know any such thing would have needed to be urged I have proof enough without the book The use I should have made of it is this I do appeal to some of your Lordships you that were of the Council I do appeal to which of you that were by whether Dr. Oats did not say at the Council Table he had been at Madrid he went from Vallidolid to Madrid and there did preach something at the Jesuits Colledge at Madrid what it was I cannot tell when Don John of Austria was by L. H. Stew. If any of my Lords of the Council do remember it they may Testifie L. Privy Seal My Lords I shall tell your Lordships as much as I remember of it Dr. Oats was examined about his Journey into Spain and amongst the rest some Question hapned to be asked whether he had seen Don John of Austria he said he had seen one that was called so that he knew him not but he was pointed to one that they said was Don John of Austria that I heard L. Stafford My Lord I thank you L. H. Stew. You hear what is said Dr. Oats Dr. Oats My Lords suppose I did say so I think there is no crime in it L. H. Stew. 'T is not objected against you as a Crime but as a mistake in your Oath there was no such man there L. Privy Seal My Lords I would not be misunderstood in the Evidence I give I did not say that Oats said he knew him but that he knew him not and only was told such a man was he Dr. Oats It was made apparent that I did not know him because I mistook his Person L. Stafford I do stand upon it That upon his Oath and I have reason to believe he did so because I am so informed he said it was Don John of Austria L. Privy Seal No my Lord Dr. Oats said he was a tall lean man and it seems he was a little fat man L. Stafford If any man would shew him a man to counterfeit Don John of Austria he would not shew him a lean man for a fat L. H. Stew. Go on my Lord. L. Stafford I shall now put your Lordships in mind that he swore but my Memory is bad and my Eyes much worse that he saw me receive a Commission and it seems he saw what it was too Now it is strange that amongst so many Commissions that were given none should be extant I desire him to shew the Commission he saw me receive L. H. Stew. Would your Lordship have him shew the Commissions which he saw you receive L. Stafford I do not believe he can shew my Commission for I am sure there was none I desire him to shew any one of my Letters he talks of He says he came over feigning to be a Papist when he was not and that they shewed him presently all my Letters and now he is come to discover the Plot I ask him did he keep any one of my Letters L. H. Stew. Have you any of any Lords Letters by you Dr. Oats My Lords I could not keep any Letters sent to the Fathers I had a fight of them but none of them to my particular use L. Stafford Does he know my Hand did he ever see it in his life Dr. Oats Yes I do know his Hand I believe I have a Letter of my Lords by me but not about me 't is of no Concern I 'm sure I have one of my Lord Arundel's L. Stafford But he says he hath a Letter of mine let him shew one of my Letters Dr. Oats He writes a mixt Hand I think 't is but an indifferent one L. Stafford So many Comissions and so many Letters as are spoken of and not one to be found or produced L. H. Stew. Can you send for the Letter Dr. Oats My Lords I am not certain of that L. H. Stew. Where did you see my Lord write Dr. Oats At Fenwick's my Lords when I carried the Letter to the Post L. Stafford How often hath he seen me at Fenwick's Dr. Oats My Lords not above twice if twice L. Stafford My Lords I cannot say I did not see him there but I can say I don't know the place nor that ever I was there Dr. Oats My Lords will his Lordship say I never saw him at Dr. Perrots L. Stafford Who Dr. Oats My Lord Stafford L. Stafford Where did he live Dr. Oats In Dukes-street going into Lincolns-Inn-Fields he is the Arch-Priest of the Seculars that is the Principal of the Secular Clergy and he hath the care of the English Colledge for the sending of Scholars to the Colledge Mr. Fisher my Lord Stafford and Dr. Perrot were together discoursing about sending his Son thither and Mr. Fisher would have one sent with him that was Dr. Perrot's Man L. Stafford I do profess before God I was never at Dr. Perrot's in my whole life L. H. Stew. Did not you send your Son abroad L. Stafford No my Lords not I. L. H. Stew. Had he a Servant at Dr. Perrot's to attend him Dr. Oats No my Lords not that I know of I cannot say he had not L. Stafford I tell you positively as I am a Christian my Lords I did not send my Son to Lisbon he went against my Will I told him I had an aversion to it but said I will not lay my Commands on you not to go but he would go I could not help it I told him Do you mean to go into the Colledge he would not tell me L. H. Stew. Pray my Lord does not your Lordship know Dr. Perrot Lord Stafford Yes my Lords I do L. Stafford Were you never with him at his House in Duke-street L. Stafford No my Lords never in my life nor saw that Fisher he speaks of ever in my life Dr. Oats My Lords 't is against the Rules of that House that any be admitted of that House if their Parents be Catholicks without consent of their Parents L. Stafford If he be admitted there I know it not Dr. Oats He lives there L. Stafford But I protest before God my Lords I asked him that Question Will you go to the Colledge No says he I will go to lie at the Bishops House but
Goaler then I told him if it were not for his Coat and I were out of this place I would break his head Then he called me Raskal L. Stafford My Lord Steward I desire to know whether this be a Witness fit to be believed against any man L. H. Stew. Mr. Oats this does not become you 't is very ill manners in you Dr. Oats My Lords the Lieutenant of the Tower hath the Law and I refer my self to the Law if I have done him any wrong Mr. Serj. Maynard It did not become Mr. Lieutenant of the Tower to tell him he would break his head Mr. Lieutenant Why if any man out of the Court or in another Habit should tell me I was a Goaler I think I should not deserve to be the Kings Lieutenant if I did not break his Head Mr. Serj. Maynard Pray tell the Court so But yet under favour you ought not to threaten him for a word to break his head L. Stafford My Lords I do say this to your Lordships a man that hath dissembled with God Almighty in so high a nature as he ackowledges himself to have done ought to be a man of a very severe life afterwards and not so passionate and cholerick as it seems this fellow is L. H. Stew. Will your Lordship proceed L. Stafford For this man truly I shall say no more I think I have said enough to make him appear a person not fit to be believed I would only ask Stephen Dugdale a Question if you please 't is but a little I won't hold you long I only ask and if he deny it I 'le prove it whether he was not a Prisoner at Stafford for Debt when he made the first Affidavit L. H. Stew. Were you a Prisoner for Debt at Stafford when you made your first Affidavit Mr. Dugdale In the Serjeants hands I was my Lords L. Staff For a very great Debt my Lords some hundreds of pounds and he was a fellow not worth a Groat And my Lords Dr. Oats says I offered him half a Crown and he refused it I call Ellen Rigby to prove he was so poor he begg'd for six pence Dr. Oats I will save my Lord the trouble of proving any such thing My Lord Stafford says I was a poor man and had not six pence in my pocket I can make it appear to the House of Lords that sometime since I came in upon this Discovery I have not had two pence in my pocket and sometimes I have not had six pence but a mans Pȯverty is no objection against his Honesty L. Stafford Where is Ellen Rigby to prove whether she did not give him six pence But then my Lords pray ask him whether he did not swear at a former Tryal he had spent six or seven hundred pounds more than he got L. H. Stew. Did you say at a former Tryal you were five or six hundred pound out of purse Dr. Oats My Lords I will satisfie this House what I said what folks write after me I am not to justifie But my Lords I had a Friend of mine presented me with 100 l. I name not his Name but if that be questioned he is a Peer of this House and will justifie it I had 100 l. for my Narrative I had 100 l. for taking some Jesuits which is 300 l. I had for some other Copies that I printed a matter of 50 or 60 l. And now I can make it appear that as to those Sums which I received in gross I have spent them all and more in this Service for I have none of the money now by me L. Stafford He makes out but 350 l. and he swore he was out 700 l. but he does not swear one true tittle nor is any whit to be believed Dr. Oats If you expect I should prove it I can prove it now Managers Be quiet Dr. Oats we will do you right anon L. Stafford My Lords I do not know for the present that I have any thing else to trouble your Lordships with I remember these Gentlemen when I asked them if they had any more Evidence to give in said No unless I should give them some occasion and now I desire your Lordships if they bring any new Evidence that I may have time to answer it L. H. Stew. God forbid but you should have liberty to answer any Objection Sir W. Jones My Lords before we go about to sum up our Evidence we shall have occasion to call some Witnesses and that will be to fortifie what our Witnesses have said to discover what kind of Witnesses have been made use of against them and to falsifie what my Lords Witnesses have said in some particulars These will be the three Heads for which we desire to call Witnesses And because my Lords we will not trouble you with making one intire Narration of what they can say or to what purpose we call them before they come we desire the favour that we may acquaint your Lordships with it still as we call them for that we think will be the way more clearly to be understood My Lords we shall begin to make good by other Witnesses some things said by Mr. Dugdale for he was our first Witness and therefore in order of time we will first begin with him My Lords the Prisoner at the Bar was pleased to object L. Stafford My Lords I would not interrupt him but I would ask whether there were more than two heads that he proceeds upon to fortifie their own Evidence and to falsifie mine Sir W. Jones My Lords I think we may comprehend all under those two heads But my Lords you observe one great matter my Lord did insist upon yesterday was this That he it is true hath seen Mr. Dugdale at my Lord Aston's though by the way I must say this my Lord at the first did not seem to know him L. Stafford I did not know him in his Peraiwig L. H. Stew. Do not interrupt them my Lord for they must have the same liberty that you had to go on without interruption Sir Will. Jones We must have the same freedom my Lord had I will do his Lordship that right he did afterwards recollect himself and say His Perriwig had made that alteration in him that he did not know him But my Lord was also pleased to say yesterday That though he did know him yet he looked upon him as so mean and inconsiderable a fellow that he did purposely avoid all discourse with him and that sometimes when he was a dry at my Lord Aston's he would not speak to him to help him nor to call one to help him to drink My Lord was pleased yesterday also to deny that ever he had any Converse with him but only that one time when indeed Mr. Dugdale did desire to make use of my Lord that by his interposition he might have leave to go to the Foot-Race My Lords your Lordships very well perceive we are now going about to prove a
Sir you need not question his Majesties Gracious Promise my Life for yours if you have not his Pardon but I will take special care about it for I will send up a Letter to London directed to some of the Lords which I accordingly did and I will also speak to Captain Lane who is a worthy Gentleman to interpose in it too Then said he I will make a discovery of the Plot. Then my Lords he told me first some particular passages relating to this Lord at the Bar and also concerning Mr. Evers and Mr Peters now in Custody and some other particulars I wished him that he would speak no more at that time And when I parted with him forthwith I consulted with my self what I ought to do in point of Law I knew I must discover that a further discovery might be made of what had passed between us Then I went to Mr. Freek who was either Mayor or Justice of Peace in Stafford and told him he must come with me to Serjeant Parry's He asked me what to do I told him when he came he should know he accordingly came and took short Notes of a further Discovery and Mr. Freek he certified it up to Mr. Chetwyn who was then at London Upon the day following the 24 th I rose and went to one Mr. Vernon one of His Majesties Justices of the Peace and told him what had happened and he sent for Captain Lane another of His Majesties Justices of the Peace and they took an Examination of him I have done my Lord with reference to his Discovery and the time L. H. Steward Do you remember what he mentioned of my Lord Stafford what he said of him Mr. Southall Truly my Lords I can only tell what he said at the first Examination he told me the first time my Lord Stafford spoke with him was at Tixal-Hall nigh to the Gate-House betwixt the Gate and the Hall My Lord was going into the Hall and my Lord Stafford told him it was a very hard thing or to that purpose that they could not say their Prayes but in private and after told him the same day or night t'one that they had some work to do and he might or must be instrumental in it This was the effect of what he told me passed the first time Another time I think he told me he was to have five hundred pounds to kill the King Lord High Steward When did he tell you so Mr. Southall Not till Captain Lane examined him which was the second time he was examined which was about the 26 th L. H. Stew. Did he swear that before Vernon and Lane Mr. Southall Yes he did I could give your Lordships a Breviate of what he swore then L. Stafford I desire he may give that Breviate Mr. Southall I took some Notes of what he swore then L. H. Stew. Have you them by you or about you Mr. Southall Yes my Lords I have L. H. Stew. Produce them Mr. Southall I took this upon some Paper I had in my Pocket and is the substance of what he swore Which he delivered to the Clerk Clerke December the 24th 1678. Mr. Dugdale informeth That in September last he met in Tixall the Lord Stafford nigh to the Gates who said That it was sad they were troubled they could not say their Prayers but in a hid manner but suddenly there would be a Reformation to the Romish Religion and if there be a good success we shall enjoy our freedom And that upon the 20th day of September 1678. the said Lord Stafford told this Informant That there was a Design in hand and if he would undertake in it he should have a good Reward c. and make himself famous The same day this Informant went up into Mr. Francis Evers Chamber to know what my Lord Stafford meant by his words and he first made him swear secresie upon his knees and then told him That he might be a person employed and have a good Reward and make himself famous if he would stand instrumental with others in taking aatay the Kings Life by Shooting or otherwise and need not fear for that the Pope had Excommunicated the King and that all that were Excommunicated by him were Hereticks and they might Kill them and be Canonized for Saints in so doing And that the Design was as well to Kill the Duke of Monmouth as well as the King December the 29th 1678. This Informant saith That since the 20th day of September last the said Lord Stafford did promise him Five Hundred Pounds as to the carrying on of the Plot and that Mr. Evers should give him instructions about the same And that the Lord Stafford told him he did not doubt of his fidelity for Mr. Evers had given him a good character to be trusty And that the Lord Stafford told this Informant That there was a Design to take away the Life of the King and the Life of the Duke of Monmouth and that several others were to be imployed in the Design besides this Informant And that this had been throughly considered of to be the fittest way for the establishing of the Romish Religion And that at the said time the said Lord Stafford laid his hand upon his head and prayed God to keep him in his good mind and to be faithful to what he had intrusted him in c. And this Informant further saith That he doubting of the Lord Stafford's payment the said Mr. Evers promised him the making good of my Lord Stafford's promise c. And further saith that he saw a Letter directed from my Lord Stafford to Mr. Evers and he read the same and knows it to be my Lord Stafford's writing and that therein was written that things went on well beyond the Sâ—as for the carrying on the Design and so he hoped it did do here in England c. Sir Will. Jones My Lords we will examine no further as to Mr. Dugdale But will conclude with this Witness and I think he speaks fully to him The next Witness we called was Dr. Oats and your Lordships have been pleased to observe That what Exceptions have been made against him have not been so much by Witnesses produced as by opposing one part of his Testimony to another what he swore at one time to what he swore at another to which we shall give an Answer when we come to sum up our Evidence for there will be no need of Witnesses to what is objected against Mr. Oats but only of Observations but as to the third Witness Turbervill we have something to answer of Witness and someâ—â—ing by way of making Observation We will first call our Witnesses Then Mr. Southall desired his Paper again which the Court told him he should have a Copy of from the Clerk Sir W. Jones And our first Witness is to this purpose It was objected against Mr. Turbervill L. H. Steward Have you done with Dugdale You have forgot to give an Answer to the objection
about the point of time when Hobson told him of the Design Sir Will. Jones My Lords That will be when we come to make our Observations we shall not answer that by Witnesses when we come to sum up our Evidence I doubt not but we shall give a sufficient Answer to that Objection But to go on with what is to be answered by Testimony your Lordships will be pleased to remember That Turbervill did inform your Lordships That he had some converse with my Lord Stafford at Paris being introduced by some of the Fathers My Lords we shall call a Gentleman that had happened to be there at that time that will tell you though he did not know my Lord Stafford yet he knew that Turbervill did converse much with an English Lord in that place where my Lord does acknowledge his Lodging to be He will give you some further account how Turbervill went to Diep in expectation of my Lord and how he had a Message from the Lord though he did not know my Lord Stafford He will give you a further account how Mr. Turbervill was earnest with him to go to Calice and then told him he might go over with my Lord at that time The use we make of these particulars we will forbear to mention till we sum up our Evidence We desire to examine Mr. Thomas Mort. Who was sworn Sir Will. Jones We desire to ask Mr. Mort whether he knew Mr. Turbervill at Paris and at what time L. H. Steward What say you Sir Mr. Mort. Yes my Lords I knew him it is now five years past since we were in Paris He and I had been intimately acquainted before we lived in the same Family I was several times in company with him and many times in his Brothers company which was a Monk and I heard him say his Brother had an intention he should be of the same Order And some time after that he altered his resolution and designed for England and I had such a design too to go from Paris where I was an Apprentice And being acquainted with him I resolved to go over with him and he told me his Brother the Monk had introduced him into the favour of a Lord as I take it it was my Lord Stafford as well as I can remember And that there was a Vessel to come to Diep a Yaught and we should go thither to go over with my Lord. And Mr. Turbervill told me we must make as much hast as might be for it were better to be there a day or two too soon than too late We went to Diep and when we came there the Vessel was not come And when we had been there a fortnight or thereabouts we were put to a great deal of inconveniency by reason of our long stay there and I think if I mistake not I or some of the Company said Cursed is he that relies or depends on a broken Staff alluding as I believe to my Lord Stafford's Name Mr. Turbervill told me if we did go to Calice we might go over with my Lord but how or by what means he understood the Vessel would be there and my Lord go that way I know not But we did not go thither we had another opportunity there was a small Vessel whether a Fish-Boat or a Coal-Vessel I cannot tell a very little one it was but we took the opportunity and came over in it Sir Will. Jones My Lords we shall make use of it in due time we only call him now to prove his converse with a Lord at Paris L. H. Steward Did you ever see Turbervill at a Lords House in Paris Mr. Mort. No my Lords not that I can remember but I think as near as I remember I will not be positive I walked about Luxenburgh House while he went as he said to the place where the Lord lodged I was thereabouts till he came L. Stafford In what Street was it Mr. Mort. Indeed I cannot tell Sir W. Jones This man is very cautious L. H. Steward Can you tell the Lords Name Mr. Mort. I do not remember his Title but I think it was my Lord Stafford Sir William Jones Pray who were you Servant to Who were you bred under Mr. Mort. My Lord Powis I served as Page to him when Mr. Turbervill was Gentleman-Usher to the Young Lady one of his Daughters since married to my Lord Molineux Sir Will. Jones Will my Lord please to ask him any Questions if not we will go on L. Stafford No not at present Sir Will. Jones Well then my Lords we desire to call one Mr. Powell a Gentleman of Grays-Inn to tell you when he first heard Mr. Turbervill speak of this Evidence he hath now given Mr. Powell was sworn Sir W. Jones Pray will you give an account what discourse you had with Mr. Turbervill about the Plot and when Mr. Powell About this time Twelve-month we discoursed about it and he told me that he had much to say in relation to the Plot but truly he did not name any particulars to me at that time Sir Will. Jones Where was this we desire to ask him Mr. Powell It was at the Kings-head Tavern in Holborn Sir William Jones Are you sure it was a year ago Mr. Powel It was about this time Twelve-month Sir Will. Jones What was the reason he did not think fit then to reveal it Did he tell the reason Mr. Powel I think he gave me a reason That he was something cautious because he feared he might disoblige his Brother at that time Sir VV. Jones Did he give you any further reason Mr. Powel I think he said he was afraid he should not have incouragement enough for he said some of the Witnesses had been discouraged and he was afraid he should be so too Sir VV. Jones Now we shall call a few Witnesses to Mr. Turbervill's Reputation which have known him a good while Mr. Hobby L. H. Stew. Was this time that Mr. Powel speaks of that he did discourse with him before or after that of Yalden Sir W. Jones My Lords We do not know of any discourse with Yalden nay we believe none such was This Witness speaks of a Year since L. H. Steward What time does Yalden speake of Sir VVilliam Jones February or March last and this was a year ago L. H. Steward This was then before that certainly Sir VVilliam Jones We desire Mr. Arnold a Member of the House of Commons may be sworn which was done in his place Sir VVilliam Jones Do you know Mr. Turbervill Mr. Arnold My Lords I do know him very well and I have known him these two years he came recommended to me from his Grace my Lord Duke of Buckingham My Lords presently after the breaking out of the Plot he was sent down into our Countrey by the Lords of your Lordships House that were of the Committee and a particular recommendation from the Duke of Buckingham to me to give him direction and assistance to find
I do not think we shall need to trouble your Lordships more with this matter that my Lord was lame sometime he is pleased to confess One Witness says that he put his Foot on a Cushion my Lord does not acknowledge that L. Stafford I was never lame at Paris Sir VVill. Jones That a man that is lame does sometimes ease his Foot is no hard Consequence I think L. Stafford I deny I was lame then I walked about the streets of Paris I desire I may not be misunderstood Sir VVill. Jones I must then desire under his Lordships favour if he will not acknowledge it to be within seven years that we may prove it and falsifie his Witness the Page L. Stafford I have gone with a stick to the House I acknowledge it and been lame with weariness Sir Fr. VVinn The Objection went to the Credit of our Witness and therefore we desire to answer it my Lord was not lame as he says for so many years but if we prove that within less time my Lord hath been lame it will take off that Objection from our Witness And we desire a Noble Lord or two of this House may testifie what they know And first the Earl of Stamford who was sworn Earl of Stamford My Lords I think I have not had the honour to sit in this House much above seven years but long since that time I have seen my Lord Stafford come lame into the House of Peers and that is all I can say L. Stafford I have come lame with a stick to the House I say Sir Fr. Winn. My Lords we desire that Noble Lord my Lord Lovelace may be sworn which was done Lord Lovelace My Lords the Account that I can give your Lordships is this I cannot ascertain any time but I am sure and I do declare it upon my Honour and the Oath I have taken that I have seen my Lord Stafford lame in the House of Lords within less than this seven years L. Stafford If he goes home to the Tower he may see me lame but never put my Foot upon a stool Sir Will. Jones My Lords your Lordships will be pleased to remember we did call a Witness one Thomas Launder and the account we had of him was he was gone sick from the Bar he was very sick indeed but being just now brought we desire he may be heard though it be out of time we call him to the Reputation of Holt. Thomas Launder was sworn Sir John Trevor Do you declare to my Lords whether you know Samuel Holt Launder Yes my Lords I do L. H. Steward What do you know of him Launder He is a Smith my Lords L. H. Steward What Reputation is he of Launder Indifferent my Lords Sir William Jones What do you mean by that good or bad speak plainly Launder A Drunken Sot a man that will Drink and Rant and Tear the Ground and sing two or three days or a week together and lose his time Sir Fr. Winn. I would ask this man whether he was summoned as a Witness upon any Tryal in relation to the Plot L. H. Stew. Were you ever summon'd as a Witness about the Plot Launder My Lords I was summon'd concerning my Lord Aston's Tryal and I came up with my Lord Aston's people as an Evidence Sir W. Jones Had you any offer of money and what sum Launder Yes my Lords Sir Fr. Winn. Acquaint my Lords with it L. H. Stew. Who offered it you and when and for what Sir Will. Jones For what was that money offered you Launder The money was not absolutely offered me but I was to have an Horse to ride on and money in my Pocket if I could take off James Ansel Dugdale's Evidence L. H. Stew. Who came and offered it to you Launder I was sent for by Mr. Fox to Tixal Hall and there was my old Lords Brother for one and Mr. Thomas Aston that is this young Lords Brother and Mr. Francis Aston who is my Lords eldest Son were in a Room together and this Thomas Sawyer that was here and more were in the Room when they promised all these things L. H. Steward If you would do what Launder If I would take my Oath that this James Ansell was a Perjured Rogue L. H. Stew. Did all they make you this promise Launder Yes my Lords Mr. Fotey It was a Consult together about taking off the Evidence Sir Will Jones My Lords we have done with our Witnesses if my Lord Stafford please to conclude we are ready to do so too L. Stafford What should I conclude about those Witnesses you have now brought in Sir W. Jones Your Lordship may please to conclude your Evidence we are ready to conclude on our part L. Stafford These new Witnesses must I say what I can say against them presently I cannot do it I know very few of them L. H. Steward Have you any Witnesses here my Lord L. Stafford I cannot possibly have any For I did not know nor guess these people would be brought against me They are persons I know nothing of Ansell I have seen four or five times I may have seen the rest but I do not know them to be able to give an accompt of them L. H. Stew. If you have any Witnesses here to support the credit of your own Witnesses that have been impeached you may call them L. Stafford I have none my Lords L. H. Stew. Will your Lordship recapitulate the material parts of your Defence that the Process may be closed L. Stafford I am very unready for it my Lords Let me ask Mr. VVhitby a Question if I must have no more time Mr. Whitby stood up L. H. Stew. There he is what would your Lordship have with him L. Stafford I do not know the Gentleman Mr. VVhitby Nor I your Lordship Lord Stafford I ask him upon the Oath he hath taken I know he will speak truth whether he did not some years ago tell my Lord Aston that is dead this Lord's Father That Dugdale was a Knave and persuaded him to turn him away I say not it is true but I have heard so and desired him to tell his Son so that he might quit himself of him L. H. Steward What say you Mr. VVhitby Mr. VVhitby My Lords about three or four years ago my Lord Aston that is dead I believe it may be two years last April sent for me to dine with him and when I came thither he told me says he Mr. VVhitby I have sent to you to acquaint you with a thing but I do not believe it before I tell it you What is it said I said he Stephen Dugdale hath acquainted me that you have employed persons upon the Water to destroy my Water said I my Lord I never endeavoured it he said he did believe me then I told my Lord said I Mr. Dugdale is a dishonour to the Family upon this accompt because many times people come for money and he will not let them have it
but puts them off and makes them complain says my Lord my Son is now at Standall but I will tell him as soon as he comes home and if you will bring the persons that have waited so long for their money and made so many journeys you shall hear what he will say to it Within a while my Lord Aston that now is came down and I went thither to see what became of it And I went to the Bâ—wling Green where my Lord and his Son were but my old Lord said nothing to me of it nor his Son neither Within a few days my old Lord Aston's Gentleman came down to my House one Mr. Ashley said I I wonder whether my Lord Aston hath acquainted his Son with what I told him says he he hath but it signifies nothing for he will hear nothing against Mr. Dugdale This I speak upon my Oath 't is true L. H. Steward Your Lordship sees what this Gentlemans Opinion was of Dugdale then he would hear nothing against him Will your Lordship conclude L. Stafford My Lords I am mighty unready and know not which way to turn my self upon those new things they have brought for I knew nothing of it nor expected any such thing But will you be pleased that I may call Simon Wright again VVho stood up L. H. Stew. What would your Lordship have with him L. Stafford I have nothing to say to him but to desire him to seé this Letter whether it be of his own Writing or no. L. H. Stew. Look upon that Paper shew it him which was done L. H. Stew Is it your hand Wright This is my hand 'T is part of that I was hired to do There is another of a great deal more consequence than that L. H. Stew. Deliver it in and read it Clerk June the 14. 1680. Sir I Can I bless God with a safe Conscience declare upon Oath that Mr. Dugdale hath been unkind to me in taking his opportunity of my Poverty by reason of a private meeting of us two by his appointment he did that time proffer if I would swear against You and Mr. Gerard he would protect me as one of the King's Evidence and I should not want Money and in the Hall at Westminster he said if I did discover it that day at Mrs. Price's Tryal he would set me in the Pillory This I have owned to his face and shall not go back from this and more neither for fear nor favour So I rest as you shall find by your Servant Sim. Wright L. H. Steward Is this your hand VVright Yes my Lords this I was advised word for word to write L. H. Stew. Who pen'd this for you Did you pen it your self VVright No my Lords they penn'd it and a great while I would not set my hand to it but Jermin Drayton said I need not fear I was not to swear against the King L. H. Steward Who is that VVright He is Butler to Mr. Heveningham L. Stafford See what you have under his hand I have no more to say to him VVright But by their perswasion at last I did wright it and a great deal more then that Sir William Jones I desire to ask Mr. VVright whether they would have had him swore this L. H. Stew. Were you desired to swear this VVright No my Lords they never put me to swear it for they told me I was not to swear against the King but if I would be so kind to make an Affidavit before a Justice of Peace I might then go where I would into the Country and I should have money to bear my charges Sir VVilliam Jones Who would have had you swear it before a Justice of Peace Wright Jermin Drayton and Mr. Longmore where he is I can't tell but he told me that Sir James Symons was better able to perform than Dugdale was to promise Mr. Serj. Maynard The same thing that was done by Redding he was convicted for it and stood in the Pillory Sir Will. Jones We desire to know whether he was ever with Sir James Symons himself and what he offered Wright I was once with him at the Kings Bench I dined there after I had written the Paper that was read he gave me 20 s. and said he hoped I would not go off from what I had said and he hoped I was sensible his gratuity would not be wanting and was sorry he had not occasion to use me Sir Will. Jones My Lords we have done with him I only observe that my Lord Stafford was pleased to produce this Paper he was Master of it and had it in his keeping Sir Fran. VVinnington Wright says there is another Paper of more Consequence I wish his Lordship would produce that also L. Stafford I did not know of this till just now it was delivered into my hands Did you see Mr. Longmore before this Letter was writ VVright Both before and after to the best of my remembrance and at the time when Sir James's Tryal should have been at the Sign of the Crown in Kings-street in Bloomsbury L. H. Steward My Lord will you conclude L. Stafford My Lords I desire your Lordships Pardon I do not know how really to go about it to night I will obey your Commands though I fall down at the Bar. I protest before God I was all night so ill of the Cramp that I had no repose If you will have me go on I will if you will give me but a little time to recollect my self L. H. Steward God forbid when your Lordship is to speak upon so great a Concern and a matter of that importance as this is to you you should be put at the end of the day and in the midst of all your thoughts to sum up your Evidence I do believe if you do desire time till to Morrow my Lords will give it you And if you would have me move my Lords in it I will L. Stafford One word I beseech your Lordships Sir VVilliam Jones We do not oppose it L. Stafford My Lords I desire one thing I am very ignorant in this matter and do not understand it I would desire your Lordships directons to know in what method I must proceed L. H. Stew. Your Lordship is to proceed thus if you please Your Lordship is to recollect and recapitulate all the Proofs you have made and you are to enforce them as well as you can and make such Observations upon them as are for your own advantage and this your Lordship must do for the Fact If there remain a doubt in Law which you may have occasion to move Counsel may be demanded and if it be considerable and worthy of debate you may have Counsel heard to speak to it But the Process is closed no more Witnesses are to be heard There remains only Observations upon the Fact or Law to be made L. Stafford Are no more Witnesses to be heard L. H. Steward No I think not 't is agreed on both sides
September when he says he was in my Chamber and I sent the Page to call him that it is false it was only he desired he might come to me to get leave that he might go to the Race my Lord Aston being angry with him for it This I conceive is proved sufficiently by two Witnesses my Man and my Boy and this I think I have proved as positively as can be done My Lords 't is true 't is objected against me That I had said Dugdale was never seen alone with me in my life 't is true and 't is true Ansell swears he brought a Footman to me but he swears it was in the Morning when it was at Supper and does not say that he was alone with me My Lords Dugdale swore that he told Mr. Philips and Mr. Sambidge of the death of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey on the Munday some swore he said it was on the Tuesday but they deny that ever he told it them and so he is forsworn in that And my Lords whether he be a man of any great Credit I think I have proved enough to your Lordships 'T is proved by two Witnesses Holt and Morrall that he offered them money to swear as likewise he did to another one Robinson whom I do believe by the Information that was given of him to be a wicked ill man and not to be credited but being so my Lords he was the fitter for Dugdale's turn And yet he had so much Conscience though he was a poor and needy fellow he would not swear a mans Life away for money the other two are without exception the one they say is an idle fellow and t'other a man but of an indifferent Reputation how far that will move with your Lordships I submit it to you I suppose 't is also clear by my Witnesses that Dugdale is a man of no Reputation having forsworn himself in several particulars and I submit the Credit of all he says to your Lordships upon that The next Witness my Lords is Mr. Oats whether he be a Doctor or no I know it not he would not own it here he my Lords swears that he saw a Commission delivered to me to be Pay-master of an Army to be raised God knows when I never heard when or where I suppose it was in the Clouds for I never knew where else Mr. Oats all along before swore only that he believed I was in the Plot now he swears I was in it at Mr. Fenwicks Chamber a man I never saw in my life nor heard of till this discovery And that he saw Letters subscribed by my Name but that my Lords I conceive is no Evidence at all for he never saw me write nor does know my Hand nor does he pretend to know me then and when he had told your Lordships he had a Letter of mine he pretended to look for it and then said he had lost it that is never had it But besides my Lords his Evidence now does not agree with his former for I do appeal to your Lordships that were in the House then that he swore the first time He only saw my Name to Letters afterwards he swore that is some days after he had ended all his Evidence and knew no more than he had put down then afterwards he remembers what he knew not before and swears a Commission he saw delivered to me So his Memory increases as he hath time to invent and perhaps by another time it might be much more But my Lords I think that one particular his swearing before your Lordships as 't is entred in your Journal that he had no more to say against any body and afterwards naming the Queen and now me to have a Commission I conceive is perfect Perjury My Lords Mr. Oats told your Lordships That he had never been a Papist in his Heart but ever feigned it truly my Lords I cannot possibly give over that point That a man that feigns himself to be a Papist or any thing that in the opinion of Protestants is so wicked a thing as that is fit to be believed if he shall not heartily repent himself and own it to God and Man as an ill thing to dissemble so But yesterday he with a smiling Countenance and as it were in derision owns that which must be a very great offence to God Almighty to pretend to be of an Idolatrous Church I appeal to your Lordships whether he be a fit Witness I conceive he cannot be thought a Christian nor to believe in God I know many wicked and infamous persons have done many wicked things and yet have been Witnesses but never did any wicked man own a wicked thing that he might have concealed with boasting of it that ever was credited in any thing for if he had said I do acknowledge I did dissemble with God and my own Conscience but I ask God forgiveness it was for a good End and a good Intention it had been something though that could not have atoned for so ill a thing but shewing no Repentance but rather an impudent affronting of God Almighty I think he is not a fit Witness I appeal to your Lordships and the whole Christian World if he be I cannot believe your Lordships will condemn me for an Opinion which I will go to my death with and it stands upon me so to do The last Witness my Lords is Turbervill and he says in the year 75 he often discoursed alone with me for a fortnight together at Paris My Servants he owns he never saw them and how he could come for a fortnight together and not see my Servants I refer it to your Lordships consideration whether it be possible For I 'le tell your Lordships when I had been a few days at Paris my Landlord came one day to me and said You do not do well to suffer any body to come to you without your Man be by for there came yesterday a Frenchman to speak with you and I do not know him and he went strait up to your Chamber without any body with him 't is a dangerous thing said he for I know that Frenchmen and people have come up and been alone with persons and put a Pistol to them and made them deliver their mony for fear of their Lives therefore pray said he do it no more From that time which was a few days after I came to Paris the latter end of October or the beginning of November no Christian Soul was permitted to come to me without my Servants how then could he come to me for a fortnight together and none of my Servants see him My Lords this Gentleman very civilly the next day after he had made an Affidavit against me would needs mend it and Sir William Poultney did acknowledge that he made Affidavit one day that he came to my Lord Powis's in the year 73 and the next day amended it to 72. Now I humbly conceive my Lords a man that swears one thing to day
good Proof of his being a Papist Besides Dugdale swears my Lord did then complain That they had not the free Exercise of their Religion that they could not say their Prayers openly What were they Not the Prayers of Protestants not those contained in the Liturgy of our Church He could not complain of any restraint as to them but complain he did that they had not the free Exercise of their Religion but he did hope if things succeeded well in a short time it would be otherwise This is particularly sworn by Dugdale My Lords His Lordship was very much unsatisfied That Dugdale was not particular in point of time he did talk of some matters to be in August or September but could not fix to any day But your Lordships will remember that as to one particular and which mainly concerns his Lordship to answer he comes to a day or within a day for he swears positively That upon the 20. or 21. of September he was sent for to my Lords Chamber the Servants were put out that there my Lord did propose to him in express terms the matter of Killing of the King He would have him be an Actor in it and he offered him a Reward of 500 l. to perform it For this which is the most material part of his particular Evidence against my Lord he is certain 't was either on the 20. or 21. of September and he tells your Lordships how he comes to remember the time by a good Token by the Foot-Race that was then to be run and I do not perceive that my Lord does deny but rather acknowledge that Dugdale was in his Chamber at that time 'T is true he does deny some other Circumstances which I shall answer anon And here I do think Dugdale undertakes to swear to that which will amount to an Overt Act and a damnable one too that is the offering 500 l. to kill the King But Dugdale it seems was not willing to depend upon the promises of my Lord for so much money his Lordship had not that credit with him he repairs to Evers and desires to be satisfied from him whether he might rely upon my Lord for so much Money Evers told him he might be sure to have the Money and that there was enough in Harcourts and other mens hands for the carrying on that blessed design and that he should have it thence I might my Lords remember to your Lordships how Dugdale does particularly swear concerning another discourse he had afterwards with my Lord. That my Lord complained of the great losses that had been sustained by him and his friends for the King how in particular my Lord Aston's Father had lost 30000 l. and what resentments my Lord had of it he said that places of profit were rather bestowed upon those that disserted the King and were Rebels and Traytors than on those that did him faithful Service and what does he conclude from thence He is very angry with the King and does say that next to the Cause of Religion which was the strongest motive with him to take away the Kings Life the Kings ingratitude to his Loyal Subjects was that which did most offend him I shall not trouble your Lordships with other particular matters which were to serve as incouragements to the Design as that there was to be a Pardon from the Pope that my Lord did write a Letter to Evers which was shewn to Dugdale wherein he says That things did succeed very well abroad and he hoped they would do so at home I shall only observe that Dugdales Evidence as to my Lords damnable Design of killing the King is positive and full And if this be to be believed as I hope we shall shew there is no reason but it should be then here surely is one sufficient Witness to prove my Lord guilty of the Highest Treason My Lords The next Witness we called for against my Lord was Dr. Oats and I think Dr. Oats is not only positive but he is positive in that which most certainly will amount to an Overt Act nay I think to more Overt Acts than one The Doctor tells your Lordships That having been at St. Omers and in Spain he saw several Letters that were subscribed Stafford he did not then know my Lords Hand but he saw the Letters and he tells you the effect of those Letters And I remember in one of them there is this Expression That my Lord the Prisoner at the Bar does give Assurance to the Fathers that he is very zealous and ready to do them service Doctor Oats tells you my Lords That afterwards coming into England my Lord Stafford did write a Letter I think it was to his Son but sure I am the Doctor said he had the carriage of it to the Post-house that he saw my Lord write it he read the superscription and he swears that the Hand which writ that Letter was the Hand which subscribed to all the former And so then joyning the one to the other it amounts to as good an Evidence as if he had known my Lords Hand from the beginning But that which comes home to my Lord is that which Doctor Oats saw and that which Doctor Oats heard and they are these particulars which I now mention First he saw a Commission directed to my Lord to be Pay-master of the Army he saw it delivered to my Lords own Hand and my Lord accepted it Doctor Oats read the Commission and he tells you by whom it was signed Johannes Paulus Oliva a person substituted by the Pope to issue out Commissions he tells you the Contents of it and of this he swears he was an Ocular Witness He tells you of another Matter he heard my Lord say as considerable as the other That when my Lord had received the Commission my Lord declared that he was to go down into Staffordshire and Lancashire where he was to put things in readiness What were those things He had now a Commission by vertue of which in Lancashire and the other places hâ— was to prepare and gather Monies for that Army which he was to pay So much Doctor Oats doth swear he heard from my Lords own mouth But there is one thing further which I had almost forgot He doth swear that my Lord was privy to and approved of the Matter of killing of the King For he doth swear he did hear my Lord say at that time He hoped before he returned Honest William who was Grove that was executed for this Attempt would have done the business And what that business was every man who hath heard of Groves Treason must needs understand There is but one thing more that I remember of Doctor Oats his Testimony Your Lordships that have a better advantage to write than we who are crowded together may have taken Notes of more but this one thing I do observe Doctor Oats doth expresly swear that my Lord bore a very ill mind towards his Majesty for my Lord did in
his hearing complain That the King had deceived them a great while and that they would bear with him no longer he should deceive them no more My Lords Our third Witness was Mr. Turbervill who doth give you an account that he being first sent to Doway and intended to be entred there in one of the Societies he was sent by my Lord Powis and my Lady Powis and some of his Relations of that Religion for that purpose he did not like the Company he was not pleased with the Exercises of that Religion and that with much difficulty he escaped thence and came for England But finding he was not well look'd upon here nor well received by his Relations he went over to France That being at Paris he came into the company of the three Fathers I named before Father Sherborn Father Nelson and Father Turbervill the last whereof he tells you was his own Brother That by the means of these Priests he was brought acquainted with my Lord Stafford and doubtless they were able to make him intimately acquainted with my Lord. And it did prove so for he tells you after some time that in a lower Room of my Lords Lodging my Lord proposed to him the business of killing the King That he did not at all like it was very unwilling to undertake it but my Lord bid him consider of it and that he should give him his Answer at Diep having enjoyned him secrecy but my Lord after sent him word he would go by Calice and the Witness afterwards went into England and from thence into the French Army And this is the substance of what Turbervill deposeth And my Lords I think it will not be doubted by any man that will consider these three mens Testimonies but that here are two Witnesses if not more to prove my Lord Guilty of Treason But my Lord has been pleased against them to make several Objections some have been by Witnesses which he hath produced to incounter the Proofs that we have offered and some of them have been by Observations that he hath made upon what hath been said by our Witnesses and his I will keep to Order as much as I can not confound the Order and Method of his Defence The Witnesses he first brought were against Dugdale and of them his Lordship was pleased to begin with his Daughter the Lady Marchioness of Winchester and his Niece Mrs. Howard Your Lordships I presume are pleased to observe what they were called to They did testifie that being at Wakeman's Tryal they did hear Dugdale swear says my Lady Marchioness of Winchester that my Lord Stafford was to come down into Staffordshire in June or July and Mr. Dugdale was then to receive Orders from my Lord and he swore as she was pleased to say that there was a Consult in August at Tixall and my Lord Stafford was there present Mrs. Howard for I put them together was pleased to say that she was present at that Tryal and there Dugdale swore my Lord Stafford did come down in June or July and that my Lord was at the Consult in August My Lords I will not make Objections neither to the Religion of these Ladies nor to the Relation to my Lord though those be matters that are to be considered But that which I shall observe to your Lordships is this That they do not agree one with another For my Lady Winchester says Dugdale did swear that my Lord was to come down in June or July and Mrs. Howard says that he swore he did come down then Now there is a great difference betwixt swearing an intention that a man was to come down and swearing the very Act that he did come down at that time By which your Lordships may observe how hard a matter it is for Witnesses that are present at a Tryal especially at a Tryal which did not directly though it might in consequence concern another Person of their Relation to take notice exactly of things And truly my Lords these Ladies being of that Religion might have so much concern upon them for Sir George Wakeman the Popish Physician and in him for other their friends of that party that they might not have so much liberty of thought as to observe exactly all circumstances sworn to by the Witnesses and therefore it is no great matter if they are mistaken in them But I believe if any one do consult the Print though it be no Evidence nor offer'd as such he will find no such thing was at that time sworn for it is not so printed and those that took notes did not understand it so My Lords The next Witness my Lord is pleased to bring is his Servant Furnese and what is it that he testifieth He saith that he was with my Lord the whole time that Dugdale was in my Lords Chamber and he doth not remember that ever Dugdale was there but once and he doth not remember that ever my Lord bid him go out of the Room My Lords it is a very hard matter for a man to come thus in the Negative to remember how often Dugdale was there especially there being no more occasion to take notice of it then than here appears to be and that after so long a time And it is a very hard matter for a Servant to gain Credit by saying his Master never bid him go out of the Room in his life These things may be done or said and yet escape the memory of a Servant of more Age and of less inclination to favour his Master then this person appears to be of and to have Therefore I think there will be but a very small matter made of what he said no force at all in it and I believe your Lordships will give very little regard to it but rather believe those Witnesses that swear positively that they have seen him with my Lord and speak to a familiarity at that time between them This young man Furnese was my Lords Servant and of his Religion and it is considerable whether we have not reason to be afraid that more than ordinary Practice has been used to prepare Evidence on my Lords behalf which I shall have occasion to speak to when I come to the other Witnesses His next Witness my Lords was his Boy George Leigh who is Fifteen years of Age now and was Eight years old when he came to my Lord Seven years ago And he attests the same thing and to the same purpose with the other And I think I may leave him with the same Answer for we are nothing more concerned with him than we were with the other Only one thing I would observe to shew that his Memory was imperfect he doth not remember that Dugdale was with my Lord at all that day which my Lord himself doth acknowledge he was and the other Witness agrees So that there cannot be any great weight laid upon what he saith My Lords next Witness was Thomas Sawyer and he is one of my
of those Letters shew me the Letter you carried to the Post-house My Lords were those Letters written to Dr. Oats Did they belong to him Or is it possible that my Lords Letter delivered by the Doctor to the Post-house should now be shewn by the Doctor or that the Letters writ to the Superior of the Society of the Jesuits should be produced by one that was a Novice of that Society Does Dr. Oats talk of any one Letter written to himself You will then I suppose see no reason to expect those Letters should be produced by him that were not written to him and the custody whereof belonged to others My Lords I must observe to You that there have been great Endeavours used to Invalidate our Testimony we have had Witnesses called against Witnesses and my Lord hath had that Advantage to do it which perhaps was never given in any Case before and which I hope will never be again The Evidence hath been Printed and Published to the World before it hath been given I say not that it was not necessary in this Case which was a National Cause and the Cause of our Religion but I do say it would not be fit to be done in other Cases for the notifying of the Evidence is the way to have it falsified and corrupted But notwithstanding all these Advantages my Lords I appeal to your Lordships Memories what considerable contradiction hath been given It is true some Witnesses to that end have been brought before your Lordships but those Witnesses have been rendred incredible by more credible persons and I would desire your Lordships to observe That tho' my Lord hath failed of proving any Subornation in our Witnesses yet we have proved much Subornation endeavoured by his Agents Your Lordships have the Record against Redding before you and what Reference that hath to the Lords in the Tower every one does remember and my Lord is mentioned in that Record And I might likewise mention the business of Cellier and what therein related to the Lords in the Tower and I 'le name but two Witnesses more that have been attempted upon this Nature There was Wright the Barber all the Applications were made to him that could be Money given Letters writ Insinuations that he was not to Swear he was but to Write and that was easily done or if he would be so kind to Swear it he should never come into open Court only go before a Justice of Peace So that your Lordships will observe by what steps and degrees men were endeavoured to be Suborned And then Launder tells you what was offered to him to perjure himself how he was brought to Tixall and what endeavours were used to make him Swear against our Witnesses These things are plain both by Records and particular Proofs upon Oath But my Lords lest we should want proof of all This very Lord I pity him for it hath been so unfortunate as to bring that Paper out of his Pocket which Wright says he had money to frame and was to Swear to It seems my Lord had the Command of it it seems to have been prepared for such a good time as This and the producing of this Paper is as full a Confirmation of this point as can in reason be expected My Lords I have been I fear too long already and yet I fear I have omitted as many particulars as I have mentioned My Lords The Evidence is so strong that I think it admits of no doubt and the Offences proved against my Lord and the rest of his Party are so foul that they need no aggravation The Offences are against the King against His Sacred Life against the Protestant Religion nay against all Protestants for it was for the Extirpation of all Protestants out of these Three Nations I mean not of every one that is now so but of every one that would have continued so every one amongst us if these Designs had been accomplished must either have turned his Religion or turned out of his Countrey or have been burned in it 'T is a Design that appears with so dreadful a Countenance to Your Lordships to this great Assembly and to the whole Nation that it needs not any words I can use to make you apprehend it If the matter be fully proved as I see no reason to doubt but that it is I am sure your Lordships will do that Justice to Your King and Countrey as to give Judgment against these Offenders which will not only be a Security to us against them but a Terror to all others against comitting the like Offences L. Stafford I beg of your Lordships to know whether you will give me leave to speak a word And my Lords I shall not speak any thing but as to a mistake Sir Will. Jones hath made in two or three things Pray my Lords may I put you in mind of them Sir William Jones If there be any mistake pray tell us what it is L. Stafford First My Lords he did omit telling you that Mr. Turbervill's Brother did say he came in 71 to my Lord Powis's Secondly He says I have proved my self a Papist because I have not taken the Test My Lords the Test was since I was in the Tower and whether I will take it or not I do not yet know till it be offered me The Third is this That this Letter was in my Pocket which I produced to you my Lords I knew nothing what was in it it was given into my hand as I stood here at the Bar. Fourthly He said Hobson did go out of England with the Almoner he did not so Another thing he says that I said Oats was an infamous person because he went to a Church that I said was Idolatrous I only said it was so adjudged by Act of Parliament I find my Lords these things he is mistaken in and that my Lords made me very willing to put You in mind of them L. H. Steward Gentlemen I would ask you whether you take any Notice of the Points in Law Sir Fran. Winn. After the Fact is stated my Lords we shall Then Mr. Powle also one of the Committee appointed to manage the Evidence proceeded further in Summing up of the same Mr. Powle My Lords the Learned Person that spake last hath left very little for me to say in the Summing of this Evidence But because this Noble Lord hath been pleased to alledge several Reasons from whence he would infer at least a great improbability that he should be guilty of the Treasons whereof he stands Accused I shall crave your Lordships patience that I may give Three or Four words in answer to those particulars My Lords In the first place this Noble Lord was pleased to begin and afterwards to continue his Defence with making protestations of his own Innocency We very well know your Lordships sit now in the Seat of Justice and whatsoever credit or regard your Lordships please to give to the Protestations of a Peer in
disturbance But we desire your Lordships to consider whether this practise of having things written down for the Clerk to read may not introduce a Custom which may in time grow inconvenient for future Example I see no great danger in the particular Instance before your Lordships now but it is dangerous in such Cases to do any thing that is new in this Court Lord High Steward All the matter is whether it be read by my Lord who cannot be heard or read by the Clerk Sir Thomas Lee. We only oppose it out of fear of making a President which may be of ill consequence Lord High Steward Read it my Lord and raise your voice for it concerns you to speak out Lord Stafford Reading out of his Paper My Lords when I offered Matter of Law to your Lordships on Saturday last I did in no wise admit the Matter of Fact to be true that was alledged against me and so I desire to be understood And I hope your Lordships will not lay the less weight upon the Testimony of my Witnesses because they are not sworn for the Law does not suffer them to be sworn which is no fault of mine nor ought not to turn to my Prejudice I must appeal to your Lordships Judgments in point of Fact how far the Kings Witnesses are to be believed against me considering the whole matter and my Counter-proof Next I submit to your Lordships Judgments this point That the Impeachment being founded upon the Common Law and the Statute of 25 th Edw. 3. and not upon the Statute of 13 th of this King two of the Witnesses Dugdale and Turbervill do only swear Treasonable words spoken by me and not my Overt Act for they swear only that I promised them Money and Rewards to kill the King Now I humbly pray your Lordships Judgment whether bare speaking of words be an Overt Act and Treason at the Common Law or upon that Statute and whether there be more than speaking of Words in a Consult or otherwise proved by Dugdale and Turbervill I appeal to you then the other Witness Oats is but a single Witness who speaks of the receiving of a Commission This is that I offer to your Lordships now for your Judgments and then I desire I may have your Opinion in other things Lord High Steward Is this all your Lordship hath to say Lord Stafford For the present my Lords Lord High Steward You must say all you have to say now Lord Stafford Is it your Lordships pleasure to hear Counsel to nothing at all I did likwise alledge to your Lordships th' other day that People that swear for Money are not competent credible Witnesses how far that was proved or I may prove by my Counsel I submit to your Lordships Lord High Stewared Look you my Lord you have so far received already the pleasure of the House You have raised several Questions of Law whether every Overt Act require two Witnesses to prove it You have had the Opinion of the Judges and there is no more to be said in it As to that whether Impeachments continue from Parliament to Parliament and the other thing whether Proceedings may be upon an Impeachment without an Indictment these are matters of the Course and Constitutions of Parliaments my Lords will consider of them by themselves and will permit no Counsel to argue them For the other Point That words are no Overt Act that rests for their Opinion in another Case when it shall come for they have now no such Case before them Lord Stafford Thumbly conceive there is Lord High Steward There is a great difference between bare words being an Overt Act and perswasion by Promises of Money and Rewards to kill the King which is a very great Overt Act. Lord Stafford Is it possible to do an Act by Words If it be so I never heard it before Lord High Steward Otherwise men may promise Rewards to â—0 several persons to kill the King and then say 't is all but Words Lord Stafford I say it not but I humbly conceive the Law says it Lord High Steward What say you Gentlemen of the House of Commons Lord Stafford My Lords I have something to say which I desire to speak first My Lords I hope I have cleared to your Lordships that all the Witnesses have swore false against me and this I have made out by Proofs I say not much to that My Lord was searching for his Papers Truly my Lords I am confounded with the Noise and other Circumstances but my Lords I shall if your Lordships please to give me leave humbly represent my Case to you how I take it to be in matter of Fact as to my own Condition not any thing but how I am now before your Lordships I was my Lords committed by my Lord Chief Justices Warrant on the 20. or 21. of October 78. Friday the 25. of October I was brought to your Lordships Bar I was Impeached I do not remember the day my Lords the beginning of December in one Parliament Articles exhibited against me in another Parliament I was brought upon these Articles exhibited and being called to your Lordships Bar the Articles were read to me and I gave in my Answer that was sometime in May 79. and in the end of May the 27. if I mistake not if I do I desire it may be rectified by your Books I with the other Lords were brought to this place in order to our Trial. We staid some time there and then were remanded by your Order to the Tower where I continued till November twelve month after without having heard any thing concerning it so that I was first Impeached in one Parliament Articles brought against me and pleaded to in a second and now brought to my Trial in a third and what your Lordships will say upon this I submit to you and whether these be Proceedings according to Law your Lordships will judge My Lords I humbly conceive that Magna Charta says That Justice shall be denied nor delayed to no man whether it hath not been delayed to me let your Lordships judge If you say the Prorogation of the Parliament is the cause of that delay I hope your Lordships will give me leave to say That from the 5. of December to the 30. when the first Parliament was Prorogued or during the Session of the other Parliament there was time enough sure wherein I might have been brought to my Trial and if these proceedings be lawful and just there is no man living but may be kept off from time to time till some Accidents happen that their ends may be gained I leave it to your judgment whether it may be only my Case now or of some of your Lordships in future Ages to be accused of things that you never heard of before and not brought to justifie your selves but kept in Prison My Lords There is a Statute I have forgot where it is but such a one I have read that though