to the body of our Lorde aboue nature the Fathers neuerthelesse haue not denied this nor others semblable acts for feare to giue heretikes occasion of error But haue declared and distinguished what was of the nature of the said bodie and what came vnto it by the omnipotencie of God And the Christians for heresies neuer abandoned the truth albeit heretikes thereby haue sometimes abused the same Sith then the bodie of Iesus Christ passed through the doores without opening sure it is that two bodies haue bene and may be in one selfe same place And hereby haue the Doctors well proued their proposition which without scripture or testimony of any Father the Ministers deny Concerning the Birth of Iesus Christ without fraction of the virgin the Doctors say that many of the Auncients produced for the passage of the doores haue also held that myracle to haue bene wrought in the bodie of our Lord and not in the bodie of the virgin but in as much as she remained in her purenesse without fracture or opening And for their reason the Fathers haue alledged the scripture Exce virgo concipiet pariet Behold a virgin shall conceaue and bring forth And out of Ezechiel Porta haec clausa erit This gate shall be shut As reciceth S. Ambrose in the 80. Epistle where a Councell is conteined wherein S. Ambrose was present which determined against Iouinian and other heretikes that the virginitie and puritie remained in her child birth to the mother of God Which thing S. Augustine in the place alledged by the Doctors in the first booke and 2. Chapter against Iulian repeateth And where the Ministers say that the virgin had not lost her virginitie when our Lorde was borne as other men in that they are condemned of heresie by the Fathers which declare Iouinian to derogate her virginitie for the like opinion as the Ministers do hold Of whom the Doctors would willingly demaund what myracle they acknowledge in the birth of our Lord touching his bodie and the virginitie of his mother if he departed from her as other childrē from their mothers as the Ministers do write And as touching that which they alledge of Tertullian Origen S. Ambrose and S. Ierome the Doctors say that Tertullian Origen held such an heresie and many others which were reproued before Iouinian And for this were condemned with him and his consorts And for S. Ambrose it is euident that he beleeued the contrary as well by the Councell where he was present as by that which he wrote in the booke De Institutione Virginis And therefore where hee saith that Christus vuluam aperuerit it must be interpreted not that it was by rupture or fraction but by effect of generation and production of his true bodie out of the wombe of the virgin by myracle and supernaturall power So that as the conception was myraculous so was his birth Et aperire vuluam is a phrase and maner of speaking in the scripture to call and nominate the first borne howsoeuer he had power to be borne And as touching S. Ierome he speaketh nothing of the fracture but only that the bodie islued out bloodie as it was in the wombe of his mother and to bee bloodie there is no necessitie of fracture of the mother The Doctors for conclusion of this article would willingly demaund of the Ministers whether they hold for an article of faith the virginitie of the mother after the child-birth whether they could proue the same by the expresse and vnreproueable word of God written For as much as Beza when hee pleaseth maketh doubt of these two points and that the pretended reformed religion among the articles of faith of his diuers imprinted confessions recyteth sometimes the virginitie of the mother of God after her child-birth and sometimes omitteth the same And in some confessions inserteth not that Iesus was borne of the Virgin Marie but onely that hee issued of the seede of Danid The Doctors employ for the resurrection and issuing out of the body of Iesus Christ through the stone of the Sepulchre the most part of the authorities alledged by them vpon the closed doores as the whole lecture of the foresaid authorities with Gregorie Nazianzene in his tragedie of the passion of our Lord will witnesse which conioyneth as do many other Auncients these three myracles happened into the body of our Sauiour aboue nature namely the birth without fracture of the Virgin the resurrection through the stone and the entrance by the closed doores The Doctors adde that Caluin and Beza make conscience to say as doo the Ministers that our Lord arose not the Sepulchre beeing shut and closed and rather had the said Caluin and Beza fall into friuolous abfurdities and ridicclous expositions here afore alledged then yeeld to the opinion of the Ministers Because there is more appearance in the text of the Gospell that Iesus Christ was risen before the stone was rowled away by the Angell as therein agree the most part of auncient Christians And by this meane also is there occasion giuen more easily to beleeue the resurrection of our Sauiour then if the stone had beene taken away before the resurrection For one might more easily say that the body had bene transported and not risen againe And the text saith not that the Angell rowled away the stone before the resurrection or when Iesus arose but rather afterwards as there is great apparance in the scripture in reason and all antiquitie Pope Leo is euilly alledged by the Ministers which well knowe to conceale what is written in the Epistle by them cyted touching the closed doores And they euilly alledge that of the resurrection For it is not said that our Lord arose after the stone was rowled from the Sepulchre But well is it said against the Fantasmatiques that the substance put vpon the Crosse and that which rested in the Sepulchre and that which arose the third day the stone of the graue beeing rowled away is the true flesh of Iesus Christ By which words Pope Leo meaneth not to say that our Lord was not risen before the stone was remoued but onely sheweth that the body of Iesus Christ risen againe was a true and not a phantastike body of whose resurrection it appeared by the opening of the graue And such is the common interpretation of old Authors touching the remouing of the stone For conclusion of all these auncient testimonies the Doctors are abashed that the Ministers seeing them so manifest and themselues conuinced that God cannot only cause two bodies to bee in one selfe-same place but that hee hath also done the same dare slaunderouslye depraue the vnderstanding of them which euerie man of good and sound iudgement can by the onely reading finde out Notwithstanding the Ministers say that the reasons taken from such and so euident testimonies be impertinent So that wiah like libertie common to heretikes they feare not without any text of scripture or any place of auncient Fathers to
the Supper ouer and besides the assurance which it giueth them of the participation they haue in the flesh of Iesus Christ for their redemption doth worke in them remission of sinnes Lastly they demaund whether one receiueth any thing by the Supper which he could not receiue without the Supper or whether without paine taking to go the Supper or beeing present thereat one may as well receiue the bodie and graces of Iesus Christ as if hee were present at the Supper The Doctors will afterwards debate the other articles contained in the Ministers last writing for as much as the precedent demaunds ought to be first examined as grounds of other articles proposed by the Ministers Moreouer after the confutation of the Supper of the Ministers and the confirmation of the reall presence of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ in the holy Sacrament the Doctors by order and without confusion will clearly teach by the pure and expresse word of God that the Masse was instituted and said by Iesus Christ and that he commaunded his Apostles to say it which thing then following the ordinance of their Maister they afterwards performed That the Masse is a true sacrifice of the lawe Euangelique That they which reiect the Masse and admit in the Church no externall sacrifice nor Priesthood are without the true lawe without true Religion and therein worse then Idolaters themselues That the Masse auaileth to obtaine remission of sinnes fauour and grace of God and that it auaileth both for the quicke and the dead That it is not an abuse in the Church if the Priest in the Masse do communicate alone when they that are present will not communicate That they commit an horrible blasphemie which call the adoration of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ in the Sacrament adoration of bread and wine and falsly call such worship of the body of Iesus Christ Idolatrie To be short that there is nothing in the Masse at this day ordained and celebrated which in it selfe is not good and holy and agreeable to the word of God The Doctors do admonish the Ministers to answere to the demaunds here aboue written to purpose plainely and by order Sunday 28. of Iuly in the yeare aforesaid The Ministers answere to the writings of the Doctors sent to thē by my Lord de Niuernois the 28. day of Iuly about seuen of the clocke in the euening in the 1566. yeare THe Doctors reproach the Ministers in the beginning of their writing that in their former complaint against thē they immitate the Donatists wherein they verifie that which the Ministers heretofore haue oftentimes shewed them to wit that the most part of their writings are imployed in repetitions iniuries scoffes and inuectiues rather then in good arguments and reasons And they say that the example of the Donatists is much more proper to bee applyed to them then to the Ministers for as much as the Donatists would restraine the name of the Church which vniuersally comprehendeth all the elect and faithfull that are and euer were and attribute the same to the sole company of them which follow their customes and errors as the Doctors at this day approue not others for the Catholike and vniuersall Church then they which follow the traditions and abuses of the Romane Church Moreouer the Donatists did persecute them which were contrarie to their doctrine and vsed violence and all crueltie against them that they could deuise as Saint Augustine in many places doth recyte Now what in time past hath bene the rage and furie as well of the Doctors as of their complices Priests and hypocriticall Monkes against poore Christians each one knoweth And there is not he which knoweth not now both by their Sermons writings and conferences what is their hate and spight against the children and seruants of God and what pleasure should they haue to roote them out were theyr power answerable to their will whereby one may iudge whether they or the Ministers come nearer to the likenesse and example of the Donatists And whereas the Doctors adde that the Ministers cease not to bee blasphemers because they reiect and detest the name thereof The Ministers answere that the Doctors also leaue not to be false accusers because they disauow and denie the name And that the effects do shewe of the one side and the other to whom such crimes and names may appertaine and be attributed And touching that which the Doctors in the same article say that it is blasphemy against the goodnesse of God to impute vnto him that hee is the author of vice and of sinne The Ministers confesse it and do adde that it is blasphemy also against his truth to say that with him there is yea and nay as doo they which vnder a colour and false pretext to establish the omnipotencie of GGD doo propose that hee can cause one bodie at one selfe-same instant to bee in diuers places to wit that it is and is not Touching that which the Doctors afterwards say that the Ministers erre in the grounds of Gods omnipotencie for as much as they haue said that he was almightie because he doth whatsoeuer hee will and that nothing can hinder or with-hold the execution of his counsailes The Ministers answere that therein they haue followed Saint Augustines definition of the omnipotencie of God in the 96. Chapter of his Enchiridion where word for word hee thus saith For other cause is hee not truly called omnipotent but for as much as hee can do all whatsoeuer hee will and that the effect of the will of the Almightie is not hindered by the will and effect of any creature In that they consequently impute to the Ministers that they haue said the omnipotencie of God ought not to bee generally extended to all things which men may conceiue and imagine in their mindes The Ministers say vnder the Doctors correction that they said not so but that the almightinesse of God ought not to be extended without any discretion or distinction to all things generally which men in their foolish phantasies might forge or imagine Wherein to each one it may eftsoones appeare how they curtall and falsifie the Ministers words and sentences to haue meanes and colour for their slaunder Afterwards where they affirme that it is blasphemy to say that God can doo nothing against order the Ministers on the contrary part maintaine that to thinke and say that hee can doo ought which is not well ordered is to blaspheme the wisedome and eternall prouidence of God The Doctors pretend in the article following that one body to be in diuers places at one selfe-same instant is not a thing derogatorie to the truth of God The Ministers doo maintaine the contrarie that it should be derogate both to his truth for as much as there should be in him as is said yea and nay and to his wisedome for as much as in his words there should be disorder and confusion and by consequence to his almightinesse because
Acts of the Dispute and Conference holden at Paris in the Moneths of Iuly and August 1566. Betweene two Doctors of Sorbon and two Ministers of the Reformed Church A most excellent Tract wherein the learned may take pleasure and the ignorant reape knowledge Translated out of French by Iohn Golburne and diuided according to the daies Magna est veritas praeualet Ecclesiasticus 33. 16. Behold how I haue not laboured only for my selfe but for all them also that seeke knowledge LONDON Printed by Thomas Creede 1602. TO THE RIGHT Honorable Sir Thomas Egerton Knight Lord Keeper of the great Seale of England Chamberlaine of the Countie Palatine of Chester and of her Maiesties most Honorable priuie Counsaile I. G. wisheth all health honour and euerlasting happinesse RIght Honourable my good Lorde If affectionate dutie shall be held presumption or any taxe me of rashnesse for still troubling your Lordship with my rude labors I plead mine excuse with the Poet Affranius who blamed for guilt of like crime to Traian yet dared to present him with homely Poems excusing himselfe still with the curtesie of the Emperour which as Princely accepted as the other poorely offered And so shrowded with the shelter of your honorable curtesie I shall be shielded from the stormes of idle imputations stop as did Affranius the mouthes of my Taxors and aduenture once more to present vnto your Lordship my prison-night-watches as a simple token of my thankfulnesse and pledge of further dutie then deeming my selfe happie when I may acknowledge your honourable goodnesse with any performance of dutie or acceptable seruice to your Lordship to whom both my self and poore endeuours are wholy deuoted The worthy and necessary vse of this Treatise I leaue to the graue iudgment of learned Censors and in all dutie and zeale do offer it to your Lordships Patronage assure me of your like good as former acceptance For a good vine yeeldes grapes still answerable to it nature and an honourable mind the fruits of an honorable disposition Long liue and prosper ho. Lord Pater sis Patriae Ecclesiae Reipublicae charus So in all humilitie I take leaue Fleete this 25. of March 1602. Your Lordships most bounden in all dutifull affection Iohn Golburne The Translator to the Christian Reader AMongst all the meanes prescribed by wisedome to attaine the perfection of true knowledge there is none good Reader in my poore conceit more necessarie for the ignorant next to the fountaine of life the word of God then the reading of Controuersies wherein the truth is debated the reasons on both sides deduced and laid open to the view and Readers iudgement For as by striking together of the steele flint the fire is out forced euen so by disputation and conference the truth is boulted out and decyded But because it is hard for a blinde man to iudge of colours and we being all blinde by nature and ignorant of God and goodnesse are of our selues vncapable of right iudgement in matters of faith for flesh and bloud cannot attaine vnto it neither can the naturall man discerne the things of God we must therefore vse the appointed meanes of our saluation namely hearing reading and meditating of Gods sacred word which is onely able to make vs wise vnto saluation and to enlighten the eyes of the simple So that by this touchstone and faithfull inuocation of God in the name and sole mediation of Christ Iesus for the direction of his holy spirit wee shal be enabled to know all things and to trye the true and pure Gold from the false and counterfeit and then comparing the sayings and assertions of both sides with the sincere vndeceiueable milke of Gods word we shal be likewise able to discerne the spirit of God from the spirit of Error and discerning shall perceiue the incomparable beautie of the one and the vgly deformitie of the other Which thing waighing with my selfe and finding in this Treatise both the deepnesse of Sathan and the inuincible force of truth which is the power of God vnto saluation of all true beleeuers I resolued at the speciall instance of a religious friend who had begun the Translation to attempt effect and finish the same which by diuine assistance I haue faithfully performed and here present it to thy view Read it with consideration consider thereof with iudgement and iudge with discretion so shalt thou finde not onely pleasure but much profit in matters discussed of greatest moment For which and all things else giue God the glory make vse for thine instruction and accept my poore endeuour whose desire was to do thee good Farewell Thine in the Lord I. G. The Preface containing the occasions of the Dispute following FOr that I doubt not but many persons filled with the commō brute of the conference should bee made at the house of my Lord the Duke de Montpensier betweene the Doctors of the one part and the Ministers of the other appointed for that purpose desire to know the truth and that others speake thereof diuersly according to the reports thereof made vnto them or their conceiued imaginations concerning the same Me seemeth that to satisfie the one and take from the other all occasion of lying or giuing credit to lies it should bee good to put briefly in writing all the matter as it passed and likewise to declare what was the motiue first occasion of the same My Lord the Duke of Montpensier who as each one knoweth is very zealous of his Religion and dearely loueth his children seeing that his daughter the Duchesse of Buillon was departed from the Komish Religion thenceforth to follow that of Iesus Christ and that without chilling shee still perseuered and more and more increased in the knowledge and feare of God in zeale godlinesse and all other good and commendable vertues his speech he had in the beginning with her and other meanes he had since assaied to reduce and call her backe from the way wherein shee was nought preuailing willed for a last remedie to attempt if he could to winne her by the meanes and remonstrance of a Doctor named Vigor whom he much esteemed And to the end that the said Lady should remaine more satisfied hauing called my Lord of Buillon her husband hee declared vnto him his minde and said hee was contented that the said remonstrance should bee made to his daughter in the presence of some Ministers as namely of Spina such others as she should please to choose to the ende that had they any thing to say against the doctrine of the saide Vigor they should alleadge it And if after they had conferred together they were not confuted by him and wholly vanquished that his daughter should then abide in her opinion without that hee or some others of his side would euer assay ought to diuert her My Lord de Buillon promised to accomplish his commaund therein and to shewe his obedience to him Shortly after hee imparted the
sufficient but that it behoued to pray also with the mouth as S. Paul commandeth withdraw your selues then into some place apart said hee and make your praiers all alone They answered that in such an act it ought not so to be done and that they were bound by the cōmandement of God to make their light to shine before men to the end that seeing their good works they might haue means to glorifie God and to be therby edified Also that in so doing they might giue occasion of scandall to their neighbours confirming the euil opiniō imprinted by their aduersaries in some of their doctrine and exercises to wit that by reason of the errors and blasphemies which were therein they dared not to publish the same and that to quite them of this slaunder meet it was that as they spake in publike their praiers should be also in publike To be briefe that they ought not neither could they with reason refuse that which the King had graunted vnto them in the Conference of Poissy where in all the assemblies there made they were alwayes permitted to pray to GOD publikely before they spake of any matter And added for their last reason that it was verie needefull to comprehend in theyr prayers them and all those that should be present at the said conference to the end that God might grant grace both to them and others to dispoile them wholly of all their passions and that there should bee nothing which might hinder them to iudge rightly of whatsoeuer should be proposed on the one side on the other And that he would also make the hearers docible and attentiue to gather to themselues some profit thereof I shame here to recite one word which scaped from Doctor Ruze in this behalfe who in contempt of God and his seruice said that if the Ministers would goe pray he would go pisse during the time of prayer Wherevpon the Ministers cryed out saying What resolution what counsell what good word can be hoped for of a heart filled with so an apparant contempt of God My Lord the Duke of Buillon and the said Doctor Ruze seeing the Ministers setled and firme in this not to enter into any conference before prayers were made in the presence of the assembly where the same should be made after they had reported the same to my Lord de Montpensier and the Doctors which were with him they purposed to send them backe and that on this condition they should not conferre with them Herevpon they departed and as they were now arriued at the little Bridge of our Lady they called them backe and they forth with returned supposing they would graunt them what they requested But herein were they deceiued For Doctor Ruze came towards them to the gate and for a finall resolution said vnto them that if they would pray they would giue them a house neare at hand but that my Lord de Montpensier would not permit they should make them in his house nor that any of his family should be present thereat Wherevnto they answered that they now yeelded lesse vnto them then in the beginning they had done and therefore they could not answere otherwise then they had answered Thē Doctor Ruze addressed particularly his speech to the Minister De Spina to whom in scoffing maner he said two things that he well saw he had no great desire to enter disputations and that in times past he had bene of their company but that he was now cut off from them Wherevnto answered De Spina that had he fled the conference he would not in that great heate haue come eight long miles nor left his Church which was to him more deare and acceptable then any other thing to finde them in their owne houses And as touching his departing from them that hee thanked God hee had withdrawne himselfe from them and that it was the greatest good that euer happened to him And to the end that hee and his companions should no way doubt but that hee was readie to conferre with them he shewed them a way by which both parties might be satisfied to wit that they should confer together by writing shewing that it should be much more profitable for as much as by that meane they should withstand all contentions that the arguments and answeres should better be meditated and digested that many should thereby be edified and in so dooing there should be no daunger that by adding or diminishing they should bee any way altered Ruze answered that they could write nothing which hath not beene written And De Spina replied that they could not also speake ought which hath not bene spoken This was the end and conclusion of al their speeches Wherby may be seene what will the Doctors had to conferre with the Ministers to whom at their arriuall to stop their passage they proposed such a condition as they were well assured should neuer be accepted of them namely to enter into publike conference of the scripture before they had publikely prayed to God in the place and assembly where it should be made Moreouer one may also iudge what was their intention by the order they had giuen to direct their conference For in stead of procuring some place and rest to the said Ministers which were come vnto them there were at the least a hundred persons of all qualities about the Ministers to astonish them some by scoffes others by iniuries others by threats So that had it not bene the care which the three gentlemen of the Duke of Buillon had of them and to driue them often back which approached too neare them they had bene in danger to haue suffered outrage One may also imagine how the Doctors do endeuour to serue God and pray vnto him seeing they cannot endure him to be prayed vnto in their presence And for conclusion what vnderstanding can they haue of the scripture with what faithfulnesse can they handle it And what dexteritie and facultie can they haue to preach it considering they disdaine and thinke it straunge that for the obtaining of all these things God should be prayed vnto in their presence As though their sufficiencie were in themselues and that it came not from him who is the wel-spring and author of all light It followeth of the occasions declared in the precedent Preface and first of the Dispute on Wednesday the ninth of Iuly 1566. Albeit the Doctors by the meanes heere before declared had sought occasion to hinder the conference which was to be made betweene them and the Ministers in the house of my Lord De Montpensier Neuerthelesse to auoyd the euil opinion that might be conceiued of them by reason of their refusall to enter into the said conference they raised a rumour that the Ministers perceiuing themselues weake and that their doctrine was vncertaine had fled the combat Which thing beeing come to the eares of the King and Queene Mounsieur the Admirall seeing it might bring some scandall and damage to the reformed
such a case is first to regard the ende wherevnto a doctrine tendeth which shall be declared vnto vs or a booke that shall be presented vnto vs For if it tend to establish and aduance the glory of God it is true as Iesus Christ saieth in S. Iohn That he which seeketh the glory of God is truth and there is no vnrighteousnesse in him Afterwards we must consider whether being reduced to the proportion and the analogie of faith as saith S. Paul it well agreeth and accordeth with the principles and foundations of Religion Obiection All say and may say as much thereof and therefore this reason is no sufficient argument as I conceiue by effect and other proofes how I ought to stay my selfe thereupon Moreouer this answer passeth the limits of the proposition For it presupposeth the Scripture to be the knowne foundation of Religion And the proposition was to know the reason which should assure me that the Scripture was of God and that it behooueth to distinguish betweene the Bookes thereof Answere It is easie to iudge if the end of the doctrine proposed tendeth to establish and aduance the honour and glorie of God As if men were exhorted thereby to withdraw wholly their trust from creatures wholly to settle and repose themselues in God to resort to him in all their necessities and to depend vpon his prouidence in all their affaires to praise and thanke him for all the goodnes they haue This presupposed no man could doubt that the doctrine which tendeth to such an end should not be good and receiuable And to that which hath bene proposed that the former Answere was out of the limits of the first proposition it seemeth not for that the first thing proposed was What is the foundation of our Religion Wherunto it was answered That it is the writings of the Prophets and Apostles Obiection This answer is common to the Lutherans and Anabaptists yea also to the Deistes which say more then all others that they seeke the glorie of God and all that which in the answere is written And generally each man that should vse the like saying should not cease to erre in all the Articles of the Creed the first excepted But to returne to the point without so much wandering it seemeth to vs not lawfull to vse the foundation of the Scripture before it bee notorious and certaine that it is the holy Scripture and that there is difference amongst the bookes thereof And before it bee known that I haue particular inspiration of the holy Ghost and that such a particular inspiration of the holy Ghost be a sufficient foundation of Religion Answere The Deistes and other hereâ—iques cannot bee holpen by the foresayd answere for confirmation of their errors Forasmuch as the Desties denying Jesus Christ cannot glorifie God seeing that to glorifie the Father it behooueth first to know and to glorifie the Sonne no more also other heretiques For that not knowing the trueth nor consequently Iesus Christ which is the way the life and the trueth they cannot know nor glorifie God And touching that obiected that the answere was from the purpose that may be iudged by the conference of the demand and answere And for the latter point of the obiection wherein it is sayde that the reuelation which each particular man sayth hee hath of the Spirite of God is to him the foundation of Religion that was not answered But that the foundation of all true Religion is the doctrine of the Prophets and Apostles Of the trueth of which all the Church in generall and the members thereof in particular are assured by the witnesâ—e and inward reuelation of the Spirit of God Obiection Then it behooued to adde whatsoeuer is heere sayde to the other answere before it were good and it seemeth that the answere doeth containe as it were a mockerie For it is certaine that when all trueth is in the doctrine of a man that man is no more euill nor an heretique But wee search out the beginning of trueth what it shou'd bee And touching the reply which denieth that the particular reuelation is the foundation of Religion There is no great difference For if the particular reuelation bee a sufficient foundation for euery one to know what is of the Apostles and Prophets that particular reuelation by consequence is the foundation of Religion For that is the foundation of knowledge whereupon euery particular man knoweth and sayeth his Religion is founded Answere The answeres haue bene made according as the demaundes haue beene propounded and it will not appeare by the reading of them that they are willing to mocke For in such a Conference as this where the matter is to seeke out the honour and glory of God Mockerie should bee ioyned with impietie And as touching reuelation that it is equall to the Scripture which is the foundation of Religon wee denie it and say they bee things different although they be conioyned together and that they doo follow the one the other euen as appeareth by that which is written in Esay Behold my couenant with them sayth the Lord my Spirit that is in thee and my wordes which I haue put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth nor out of the mouth of thy seede And that which followeth From whence a man may iudge the distinction which the Prophet putteth between the reuelation of the holy Ghost and the word Obiection For conclusion of this Conference I leaue each man to iudge of the agreement of the answerers and obiections And for that which is alledged of the vnion of the word and of the holy Ghost out of the text of Esay they are things from the purpose and new matter And we must not compare the reuelation of euery particular person whereof was the question vnto that of the Prophet Esay who had other proofes that the Spiâ—â—t spake by him and had oft times made demonstration thereof And of all that aboue said I leaue the iudgement to euery Christian Answere We leaue also the iudgement of what hath beene spoken of the one part and the other to the hearers and readers And for the passage of Esay produced the question is not of the reuelation of the Prophet nor of the spirit communicated vnto him but of the spirit and the words which God promised to all his people with whom he made his couenant And as touching the other pretended proofes which the Prophet had of his vocation we make no doubt thereof But we say that the principall and most assured was that which he had by the testimony of God his Spirit as appeareth by the sixt Chapter of his Prophecie Obiection Be it so that by the person of Esay be spake to his people it followeth not that he spake not to Esay first And I allow that he promised indeed his spirit to his people that is to say to his Church vniuersal Not that he wil that euery one yea being in this Church
2. vnder the name of Oyntment and in many other places Obiection The places heere-aboue alledged make nothing to prooue that the Spirite was promised to all to iudge of the doctrine otherwise euen women and all faithfull Artificers should iudge of the doctrine as the Prophets and Apostles To the contrary whereof Saint Paul sayeth Nunquid omnes Prophetae c. Are all Prophets hee putteth downe expresly that the discerning of Spirites is to haue vnderstanding of the Scriptures and are gifts which are not common to all the faithfull but particular to some Answere The consequence which the Doctors gather is nothing worth forasmuch as the Spirit of God is more abundantly oft times comunicated to some then to others And some also are better exercised in the Scripture then others Touching the place of Saint Paul 1. Cor. 12. the Ministers say It maketh nothing against them forasmuch as the Spirit of prophecâ—e and the spirit of discretion are different gifts as it appeareth by the declaration which the Apostle maketh in the same Chapter The second dayes Dispute beeing Wednesday the tenth of Iuly THE Doctors required that their protestations the day before made might be registred which was such That they protested they would not enter into any Dispute of things receiued in the vniuersall Church from the Apostles time hitherto decided and determined by holy Eâ—umenicall and generall Councells holding them for certaine and indubitable and that all doctrine to the contrary was false But following the good and holy desire of the Lorde Montpensier and Madam de Buillon his daughter they were ready to make knowne by the verey exâ—resse word of God interpreted by the sayd vniuersall Church and Councells that their doctrine wherein the sayd Ladie was formerly instructed is sound and wholesome And that the instruction which hath beene giuen her to the contrarie is perniâ—ious and damnable And that this Conference is by way of instruction and not of Dispute The Ministers likewise protested that they assembled not with the Doctors for any doubt they had that whatsoeuer is conteined in their confessioÌ„ of faith is not certain and true and founded vpon the word of God as appeareth by the places of scripture quoted in the margeant of the said confession And doo beleeue that whatsoeuer is contrarie and opposite therevnto is damnable and to be reiected yea though an Angell from heauen should propose it And as touching themselues they were not come thither to be instructed in other doctrine then such as they follow and haue learned of Iesus Christ whom they acknowledge to be the onely maister and instructor of the Church It was declared by my Lord of Neuers that he desired after the obiections and answeres there should bee giuen a short resolution both of the one side and the other of that was conferred of the day before Following which remonstrance the Doctors say that to iudge of a booke whether it be the writing of holy scripture or not and likewise to discerne a booke Canonicall from one Apocrypha or Ecclesiasticall a man must not rest on his owne priuate opinion or priuate and particular inspiration for as much as none haue ordinarie assurance that it is a true reuelation of the holy Ghost without reducing himselfe to the common consent and agreement of the Church vniuersall And also that God albeit hee had power to reueale and imprint in each one the true knowledge necessarie to saluation yet hath he ordained a certaine meane whereby faith is obtained which is a reuealed truth that is to say by hearing of the word of God preached by lawfull Ministers sent by the Pastors of the true Church as by the text of Saint Paul to the Rom. 10. and Ephes 4. appeareth If then the meane to haue faith and inward reuelation of the knowledge of saluation bee by the hearing of the word of God lawfully preached by the Ministers of the same according to the ordinary meane to be assured that a man hath inward reuelation It behoueth necessarily to bee assured that the word by which faith is obtained hath bene preached by the lawfull Ministers of the true Church And by consequence to be first assured of the church before his own inward reuelation following the meane which Iesus Christ hath followed They say further that the true and certaine marke of a true inward reuelation is when as it is reduced to the common consent of the Church And contrariwise that euery pretended inward inspiration particular and priuate is a false perswasion if it bee different from the common consent of the Church For the spirite of God is not particular but common And say moreouer that to finde out a false doctrine it behoueth to examine the same to knowe whether it bee priuate or common euen as our Lord hath giuen the true marke in Saint Iohn 8. saying Qui de se loquitur mendacium loquitur Hee that saieth any thing of himselfe and of his owne proper inspiration is a lyer And likewise as it is written in Ezechiel Sonne of man prophesie against the Prophets of Israel that prophesie and say vnto them that prophesie out of their owne heart heare the word of the Lord. Thus saith the Lord God Woe to the foolish Prophets which follow their owne spirit and haue seene nothing And afterward they haue seene vanitie and lying diuination saying The Lord saieth it and the Lord hath not sent them and they haue made others to hope that they would confirme the word of their prophesie And the verses following doo serue to the purpose Which false Prophets said they had an inward reuelation and the word of God They say also and let it be well wayed that the proppe of Religion grounded and assured vpon an inward inspiration is the foundation of many Sects in our time as of Anabaptists and Suencfildians who stay their doctrines vpon priuate reuelations and alledge the same texts to serue them for foundation of their doctrine which the Ministers yesterday alledged that is to say Ieremy in the third Chapter and Ioel. 2. and Saint Paul 1. Cor. 2. which Brentius and Bucer considering haue confessed that by the onely tradition of the Church wee are acertained of the bookes of the holy scripture in following the doctrine of the auncient Fathers as Saint Ierome who confesseth hee receiued by the tradition of the Church and by the same did knowe that there bee foure Gospels As much thereof saith Origen recyting the Canonicall bookes of the new Testament saying I haue learned by tradition that there bee foure Gospels And you shall not finde any auncient Catholicke which hath stayed his faith to discerne and iudge of bookes vpon his onely priuate and particular inspiration And Saint Augustine Liber Confess cap. 25. vseth these wordes Veritas tua domine non mea nec illius aut illius sed omnium nostrum quos ad communionem aduocas terribiliter admonens ne priuatam veritatem habeamus ne priuemur
because men do alledge propose many things to the contrary To the end therefore that God and his Angels bee maintained true in their words it must not be doubted but God can much more easily change and alter his creatures and all their qualities then a Potter can play with his clay and forme at his pleasure some vessell thereof Moreouer there is daunger that if we limit Gods power towards his creatures wee fall to denie him his Lordship and dominion ouer them For no other thing is it to be Lord of a creature then to haue power to change alter and giue it such a nature and qualitie best pleasing to him as hauing the same in his owne power And therefore God in Ieremy to shewe that hee had power to destroy and ruinate or to maintaine Ierusalem as seemed him good saith I am the Lord of all flesh is there any thing too hard for me Therefore the Doctors do conclude that there is daunger if this question bee maintained as impossible to God that each one therein will dare as much alledging the same examples which the Ministers do to exempt from the power of God euery thing shall displease him And when men shall produce vnto him such things out of the scripture he may interpret the scripture in an other sence saying that such a thing shall be impossible to God by the naturall sence of the words of the scripture Euen as the Ministers doo change and alter the scripture which saith that the body of Iesus Christ is in two places To wit the word of the Supper compared with that of the Ascention and say that that of the Supper ought not to bee vnderstood litterally for that one body should be in two places is impossible to God So say the Doctors that each one wil corrupt the litterall sence of the scriptures saying that the thing is impossible vnto God And therefore must the scriptures be otherwise vnderstood And notwithstanding it may bee because it displeaseth him and yet will hee bring forth the selfe-same reasons and allegations as do the Ministers to shewe that all things are not possible to God The Doctors do againe conclude that it is better to maintaine the scripture in the truth thereof albeit it propose in our iudgements incomprehensible and impossible things then to open a gap for euery one to depraue the word of God to raunge and subiect it to his will and iudgement vnder shadow of saying that it is impossible to God and alledging for the same some examples They will not omit that the Ministers who haue often protested to relye vpon the pure word of God do alledge only auncient Doctors against the power of God flying for aide to them against Gods expresse word which importeth that generally without exception there is nothing impossible to him Answere The Minister answere that the Doctors proue not their consequence and that they leaue it for some distrust they haue as is likely that they are not able to proue it They mentiō but the antecedent of their said consequence to the confession whereof it is not possible for them to lead the Ministers by their reasons and authorities alledged to weaken their said consequence for as much as of one particular they inferre a generall which is contrary to the rules of Logicke And where they say that the authorities alledged by the Ministers nothing serue to reproue their consequence and to shew that God leaueth not to be almightie although he cannot do any thing which doth derogate to his nature they referre themserues therein to the said auncient authors which for the same end and reasons as the Ministers doo alledge and propose the aboue said exceptions Where they pretend that the authorities and sentences alledged out of the auncient Fathers do nought appertaine to the present question for as much as they denie that they should be vnderstood of other things but those only which do containe in themselues contradiction The Ministers do answere that so also doth that which they propose of a body that at on selfe instant it may be in diuers places For as much is it as if they should say that a body is and is not at one selfe-same time and that a body is one and is not one Also that a creature is incircumscriptible and not inclosed within certaine limits which happening it should no more be a creature but God As may bee gathered of that which S. Basil writeth in his booke of the holy Ghost Chapter 22. saying thus The Angell that appeared to Cornelius was not in the same place where Phillip was And he that spake to Zacharie from the Aultar filled not whiles hee spake vnto him his seate and place in heauen But the holy Ghost is in Habacuck and Daniel in Babylon and in Ezeehiel vpon the floud of Chobar for the spirit of God doth fill the earth And the Prophet writing thereof saith Where shall I hide me from thy spirit or whither shall I flye from thy presence Didymus in his booke of the holy Ghost confirming that aboue said saith thus Were the spirit of God a creature his substance should he haue circumscript and limitted as haue all things made and created As then so it is that the spirit of God doth fill the world and is not circumscript nor in any place limitted therof it followeth that he is God Vigilius in the disputation hee wrote betweene Sabellius Photius Arrius and Athanasius vnder the person of Athanasius thus writeth Thereby may it chiefly appeare that the spirit of God is God that he is euerie where and is not contained in any one place as the Prophet writeth Whither shall I flye to hide me from thy spirit Of these places may we conclude that if a body bee not circumscript finished and closed in certaine limits it is not a creature which ought to bee vnderstood not onely of other bodies but of that also of Iesus Christ himselfe as appeareth by that which Theodoret writeth in his second Dialogue where hee thus saith Then is the body of our Lord risen exempted from all corruption impassible and immortall adorned with diuine glory adored and worshipped of the heauenly powers Neuerthelesse albeit it be in such sort qualified yet ceaseth it not therefore to be circumscript as it was before it was glorified whereof it followeth that being a true body and a creature it cannot be in diuers places at one instance Whereas they alledge that the foresaid examples do nothing pertaine to the question proposed for as much as in it the question is onely to know whether God can chaunge the qualities in a substance the substance remaining The Ministers do denie it because in the question there is mentiō of a body which cannot be without hs measure Now the measures and demensions are not as qualities and accidents which may happen to a body and depart from it without corrupting thereof which is the nature and condition of accidents but are
interpret that two bodies to pierce one an other is no other thing then one body to giue place to the other Of which false and licencious interpretation the common phrase of speech among Philosophers themselues doth condemne them And the feat example brought of them which walke through the aire beating vpon them and of Birdes when they flye is ouer subtill And whereas they boast in the said article that in denying that two bodies may be in one place by the omnipotencie of God or one bodie in two places they aduance and magnifie the power of God As true is that as when in all their other errors by which they resist the truth of God and blaspheme him they euer boast to aduance the glorie of God And the Ministers must paint and couer their filthinesse and deformitie with some colour of speech to blinde the simple and ignorant Good reason also haue the Ministers not to excuse the interpretations of Caluin and Beza as too too friuolous and ridiculous and preferre in the meane time their owne interpretation though more ridiculous then those of their Maisters wherein appeareth the concorde betweene the Maisters and Disciples all vsing one foundation of their religion which is to trust alwayes to their owne particular and priuate interpretation and inspiration and to preferre the same to all others Where the Ministers say that the bodie of our Lord was not inuisible to the Disciples of whoÌ„ mention is made in the 24. of Luke but that his bodie only being nimble he suddainly withdrew himselfe the Doctors obiect that the suddaine departing whereof speaketh S. Ambrose and Lyra maketh not but that the bodie was inuisible as signifieth the Greeke word Aphantos which signifieth not a suddaine departure but an incapacitie to be seene and knowne And so the text of the scripture is plainly for the Doctors Ioyned neuerthelesse that when the olde and late Diuines wil giue examples that Iesus was made inuisible they ordinarily alledge this passage The Ministers also who boast that they rest vpon nothing but the pure word of God for exposition of scripture bring their dreames aboue their owne perswasion as touching the closed doores appeareth And with like libertie vse they to expound the text of Saint Paul which expresly maintaineth that our Lord pierced the heauens And it is likely say they that the heauens claue a sunder and were opened And if one demaund whence they learned such an interpretation they answere from the word of God founded vpon their inward inspiration by which they appropriate that which is written in Saint Mathew that heauens were opened when the Doue descended vpon our Lord. As though all the heauens were clest asunder and the holy Ghost had not power to descend without the opening of them not nothing that the scripture in many places taketh heauen for the ayre Concerning that they alledge of S. Stephen who when he was stoned sawe the heauens open more meete it were for the Ministers to interpret such visions to bee made in spirit as there is great likelyhood else should it behoue to confesse two myracles the one in the diuision of the heauens the other in this that the sight of S. Stephen not onely pierced vnto but also aboue the heauens where the Ministers confesse the body of Iesus Christ to bee at the right hand of the Father whom Saint Stephen sawe which is against the order of God established in the wold whereby it is necessarie that there be a certaine distance betweene the eye seeing and the thing which is seene And no lesse hard is it that such thing bee done then that two bodies should pierce one an other Nor must they forget that the scriptures oftentimes in spirituall apparitions and visions vseth this phrase of speech that the heauens were opened and yet in such case was there but a spirituall vision and likewise but a spirituall opening And euen as the Ministers will take the rigour of the word the opening of the heauens so should they not thinke it straunge if the Doctors with like rigour take the piercing of the heauens especially in the article of the Ascention where the question is of the bodie of Iesus Christ which had alreadie pierced more impenitrable bodies then the heauens And the Doctors to auoyd tediousnesse referre themselues to more ample debating this point of the piercing of the heauen hereafter As touching the 28. article where the Ministers against expresse scripture do obstinately defend that God cannot by his power make a Camell or Cable to passe through the eye of a needle the Doctors cannot sufficiently maâ—uel either at the blindnesse of the Ministers which seeme to see nothing at noone-day or at their obstinacie and boldnesse And that the Ministers vnderstand not their fault the Doctors cannot thinke but that impugning the truth well knowne to themselues they sinne against their owne conscience And God suffereth that it seemeth to happen vnto them in this so manifest a place and text of the scripture to the end that by this article one may perceiue how much more bold they are to giue false sences to scriptures more obscure then this and to the sayings of the auncient Christians which make against them Now that the great wrong may be vnderstood which the Ministers doo in denying that our Lord can cause a Camell or Cable to passe through the eye of a needle the Doctors do obiect that it should be impossible with God to saue a rich man vsing such argument taken from the text of the Gospell More impossible or hard is it for God to saue a rich man then to make a Camell or Cable to passe through the eye of a needle But God by his omnipotencie cannot make after the Ministers a Camell or Cable to passe through the eye of a needle Therefore God by his omnipotencie cannot cause a rich man to be saued and enter into the kingdome of heauen The Maior is of the scripture The Minor is confessed by the Ministers and the consequence is necessarie And according to all Philosophie hee that cannot doo a more easie thing cannot doo a thing more hard So also without contradiction haue the Auncients expounded the present scripture as doth Origen in the Homily vpon this place saying that it is possible for a Camell to enter through the eye of a needle yet not possible with men but with God And the manner how such thing may bee done is knowne of God and his sonne Iesus Christ and of him to whom hee shall reueale it Semblably Saint Augustine in the first and fift Chapter of his booke of the spirite and letter thus speaketh to Marcellinus whom hee wrote vnto It seemeth to thee absurd when I say vnto thee that a man may bee without sinne albeit that Christ excepted such a one is not founde Should it seeme absurd vnto thee that a thing may bee done whereof no example can bee shewed Seeing thou doubtest not as I thinke but it neuer happened
that it was not needfull to adde that word expresly there For as much as there is no man so ignorant who hauing vnderstood that a body is circumscript but doth presently inferre that then it is comprised in a place certaine As touching the Camell if they be not contented with that alreadie said thereof then let them reade what Saint Ierome hath thereof written in his first booke against the Pelagians who expounding the words of Iesus Christ saith as followeth In this hath the Lord not said that it may be done but hath compared one impossibilitie with an other For as a Camell cannot enter through the eye of a needle so the rich shall not enter into the Kingdome of heauen Now if thou canst shewe that the rich man there entereth it will also follow that the Camell may passe through the eye of a needle And alledge not vnto me Abraham and the others which we read in the old Testament to haue bene rich and which being such were entered into the kingdome of heauen because they well vsing their riches and imploying them to good workes haue by that meane ceased to be rich Behold what S. Ierome writeth Thē as it is necessary after the saying of S. Ierome that for the saluation of the rich man there be a mutation and changing in his heart yea and that hee cease to be rich to the end hee may enter into the kingdome of heauen so also it behoueth that there be a chaunge in the Camell and that hee cease to be such that he may be made to passe through the eye of a needle As touching the article following the Ministers say that by the grace of God they may discerne the light from darknesse and falshood from truth Which is the cause that they cannot approue neither the arguments nor conclusions of the Doctors touching the being of one body in many places at one instant being well assured by good and certaine testimonies of the scripture that all whatsoeuer the Doctors will proue not else-where proceedeth then from the spirit of error and falshood Which wil retaine by that meane the impietie and Idolatrie which hee hath formerly established in the world to the ruine almost of all Christendome As touching the verbe Dierchesthai the Doctors finde themselues much hindred to saue their penetration which they can no way found vpon the proper signification of that word as hath bene shewed them by the passages produced vnto them not vpon any authoritie of the scripture To that which the Doctors alledge to proue that faith commeth in part of our selues not wholy of God that Nemo credit nisivolēs to wit that none beleeueth but willingly the Ministers answer that vnder our Maisters correction it is nought to the purpose for as much as this will and consent is of God who worketh in the faithfull both the will and the deed Which thing S. Augustine in one of his Epistles verie well teacheth where he saith That when God calleth men to saluation he findeth not in them any good will at all but that he worketh and createth it in their hearts if he wil finde it there And that of S. Paul which the Doctors alledge that we are coworkers with God serueth nothing for their purpose For the Apostle speaketh not there but of the Ministery And meant no other thing then what hee writeth therof more clearly in the 2. to the Corinths in these words We are Embassadors for Christ as if God exhorted by vs. And touching that which they adde that none of all the auncient Doctors euer taught that one body could not be in diuers places at one selfe-same time The Ministers say yea As they haue shewed in their former writings where the passages of S. Augustine Ad Dardanum and in the 30. tract vpon S. Iohn and others haue bene alledged The Ministers answere not but to two points onely of all that the Doctors haue touched in theyr aduertisement The first is that theyr Sermons theyr writings theyr discipline obserued in theyr Churches the censures which they passe for scandalous offences therein committed the care which they and the Superintendents haue to discouer reprooue and correct them the paine which they take to reforme whatsoeuer is disordered and the publique prayers which in all places they make to these endes defend them with all good people and iustifie them against the slanders of the Doctors The second is that the Doctors in theyr sayd aduertisement are deceiued in that they haue said that Abraham doubted of the promise Which is wholy contrary to that which the Apostle in the 4. of the Romanes thereof writeth Where in these proper termes he saith And he nothign doubted of the promise of God through vnbeliefe but was strengthened in the faith and gaue glorie vnto God For answere to the Doctors last Obiection made as they say agaynst the answere giuen by the Ministers to theyr former Question vppon the matter of the Supper Although the sayd Doctors do faigne not any way to affect delaie in the Conference and Dispute of the Supper and of the Masse yet can they not perswade any person of any iudgement that they haue not hetherto retyred and doo yet drawe backe from entering thereinto For notwithstanding some requests presented by Madame de Buillon and the Ministers some declaration which my Lorde the Duke of Niuernois hath made therevppon of his will and desire to bring them therevnto yet by all the meanes aboue-sayd hath it not beene possible to obtaine of them that all other thinges set apart they would in good earnest conferre with the Ministers of the two points aforesaid Which thing the Ministers perceiuing and not desiring to depart from them without conference first had therof haue often protested to dispute no more with them till these two Articles were first decyded and resolued And to this ende proposed certaine Theses by order and good methode as well of the one as of the other to the ende they should well aduise what in the sayd Theses they would gainsay and withstand The Doctors hauing dissembled the same in stead of pursuing of them doo propose other friuolous and vnprofitable questions taken and drawne from theyr Schoole diuinitie And although the Ministers had iust occasion to grieue that theyr Theses were omitted by the Doctors neuerthelesse to the ende they should haue no more shadowe nor colour of delaie the Ministers haue also answered to their last questions But now in stead of following theyr Answeres and impugning of them if any way they could they propose againe newe questions no lesse absurd and friuolous then the former Whereby each one may euidently knowe theyr hypocrisie and dissimulation And that pretending a willingnesse to conferre of the two foresaide pointes they doo in the meane time what in them possiblie lyeth to drawe them from the Conference thereof to the ende it may breake off before that this matter be cleared By meanes whereof the Ministers for conclusion and
resolution of all the Conference determine by Gods grace to couch briefly by writing and in the clearest manner they can all what God hath taught them concerning the same and what they haue learned thereof by his word as well to satisfie the debt and bond which they haue to God and his honour to obey my Lord of Neuers and Madame de Buillon as lastly for the contentment and edification of the whole Church The Conclusion and resolution of the points as well of the Supper as of the Masse containing a declaration of that which the Ministers beleeue concerning the same and teache thereof in their Church by the word of God THe end and chiefe felicitie of men is to be conioyned with God and to abide in him For as much as it is the only meane by which all their desires can be contented and satisfied and by the which also their mindes and hearts can be plainly freed and deliuered from the hard and cruel bondage of sinne and of all the passions greedie desires feares distrusts which do assaile them Which was the cause why S. Paul placeth perfect beatitude and entire repose of the blessed in this that God is all in all in them But for as much as men be naturally corrupt and wicked and contrariwise God in all perfection is pure and holy the difficultie is to knowe and choose the meane by which they may approach vnto him Seeing that there is no societie betweene light and darknesse nor any communion betweene righteousnesse and vnrighteousnesse In them cannot this meane bee found by reason that of themselues they are wholly vnable and vncaple to relieue themselues from the miserie and curse into which they be cast headlong So that beeing blinde of vnderstanding they cannot know their owne good nor seeke it being rebels and heart-hardened and therefore of necessitie must they goe out of themselues and seeke the aboue said meane in Iesus Christ who was giuen them of the Father to bee their righteousnesse wisedome sanctification redemption way life and truth Then resteth it now to knowe how they may bee vnited and conioyned with him The Apostle dooth teach vs that the same is done by faith by which Iesus Christ dwelleth in our hearts and abideth in vs so that hee and wee are made one and hee and his Father are one Now there are two principall causes of this faith the one outward and the other inward The inward is the holy Ghost who is called the spirit of faith for as much as he is the Author thereof and createth and bringeth it forth in the harts of men mollifying and disposing them to receiue with all obedience the word and promise of God which is preached vnto them by the faithfull stewards and Ministers of the same Which word is the outward cause of faith And as the same faith groweth and riseth by degrees euen so doth the vnion which we haue with Iesus Christ and by his meanes with God vntill as saith S. Paul wee all meete together in the vnitie of faith and knowledge of the sonne of God vnto a perfect man and vnto the measure of the age of the fulnesse of Christ The increase of faith is wrought by the working and power of the holy spirite who was the first beginning and author thereof and afterwards by the continuance of the word purely preached and denounced and finally by the lawfull vse of the Sacraments ordained as seales for the certaintie and confirmation of faith and assurance wee haue of the foresaid coniunction with God through Iesus Christ and of the participation of all the good things grauntes gifts graces and blessings which by his fauour are purchased and gotten for vs. As of the remission of sinne of our regeneration of the mortification of the flesh and the lusts thereof To signifie which things and more amply assure vs of the exhibition and enioying of the same Baptisme was ordained of God to the end that in the water which is powred vpon our bodies and in the promise of God which is therevnto added we may behold as it were with our eies the inuisible grace which God vouchsafeth vs to wash and cleanse vs from our spirituall filthinesse and to fanctifie vs and make vs new creatures As also to further assure vs alwayes of life eternall and make vs growe in the hope wee haue thereof by the participation of the flesh of Iesus Christ crucified for our redemption and of his bloud shead for remission of our sinnes the bread and the wine are distributed vnto vs in the Supper by the ordinance of Iesus Christ But as the Ministers acknowledge that there is a vnion and sacramentall coniunction betweene the outward signe and thing thereby signified so say they on the other side that betweene them two there is such a distinction that the one ought neuer to be confounded with the other nor the spirituall thing in such sort fastened to the corporall which representeth the same that the one without the other cannot be receiued or that the two by necessitie bee alwayes inseperably conioyned together Whereof it followeth that they erre which will haue the bread in the Supper to bee chaunged into the substance of the bodie of Christ Iesus And they likewise which will haue him to be conioyned and corporally vnited therevnto So that whosoeuer receiueth and taketh the signes bee hee faithfull or vnfaithfull taketh and receiueth forthwith the thing by them signified Which error with the most part of others happening in this matter proceedeth of not well comprehending nor conceiuing what it is to eate the body and drinke the bloud of Iesus Christ Which thing ought not to bee vnderstood in sort as corporall meates are taken and eaten but after a spirituall manner onely as is declared in the sixt of Saint Iohn which in this consisteth that Iesus Christ dwelleth in vs and we in him and is done by the faith we haue in him as teacheth S. Augustine in the 25. tract vpon S. Iohn saying Why preparest thou the belly and the tooth beleeue and thou hast eaten And in the third booke and 16. Chapter de Doctrina Christiana where he saith as followeth When Iesus Christ saith except yee eate the flesh of the sonne of man and drinke his bloud ye haue no life in you It seemeth that hee commaundeth to commit some great offence It is therefore a figure wherby we ought to vnderstand no other thing but that it behoueth to communicate with the passion of the Lord and to retaine in our memorie that his flesh was crucified and wounded for vs. The eating then of the flesh and body of Iesus Christ is no other thing then a straight coniunction and vnion wee haue with him which is made by the faith wee adde to his promises Euen as by the mutuall promises made and receiued betweene man and woman the marriage is concluded and setled betweene them And although being so
to the ende it might wash vs. Of this as before do the Ministers inferre two things The one is that the word of consecration is not as is said a simple pronuntiation but a publike and manifest declaration of the institution and ordinance and of the whole mysterie of the death of Iesus Christ The other that the signes and Elements consecrated are not chaunged as touching their nature and substance but onely as touching the vse and signification and that onely during the action wherein they doo serue For to consecrate the signes as the water in Baptisme and the bread and wine in the Supper is no other thing then to depute and make them serue to an holy and sacred vse by the publike declaration of the ordinance of God made to this ende and not to chaunge them as touching theyr nature and substance The which vanishing away and beeing abolished there should remaine no more of the signe nor consequently of the Sacrament Euen so then as the water in baptisme after consecration abideth water without that the nature or substance thereof in ought chaungeth or altereth So also the bread and wine in the Supper remaine as touching theyr substance such after consecration as they were before else should there not bee Analogie nor mutuall agreement betweene the signe and the thing signified For what comparison or conformitie is there betweene the accidents of bread and the truth of the body of Iesus Christ Seeing that the accidents of bread as the whitenesse and roundnesse destitute of theyr substance as the Sophisters doo falsly imagine could not nourish nor sustaine the bodie and by that meane should not be proper to signifie that the flesh and bloud of Iesus Christ doo nourish and sustaine our soules This then must bee holden for a thing resolued that the bread and the wine abide in their substance which thing is clearely prooued by that which Iesus Christ speaking of that hee giuen his Disciples to drinke in the Supper calleth it namely fruite of the Vine Which cannot bee applyed to accidents but ought necessarily to bee vnderstood of wine in it proper substance Also by that which Saint Paul saith calling the Elements of the Supper three seuerall times bread and wine yea after they haue beene consecrated Also by that which hee sayeth else-where Wee which are many are one bread and one body for as much as wee are all partakers of one selfe-same bread For there hee will teach vs by the comparison of bread and wine hee proposeth vnto vs that as it is composed of many graines so pasted and mingled together that one cannot distinguish nor seperate one from an other So also ought all the faithfull in the Church to be so conioyned and vnited together in one selfe-same body that it seemeth and appeareth they are members one of an other Now very foolish and from the purpose should this comparison be if the bread which we eate in the Supper and vpon which this comparison is founded were not true bread Also by that which Gelacius Bishop of Rome writing against Eutiches saith The Sacraments saith he which we take is a thing diuine and neuerthelesse doth it not cease to bee substance and nature of bread and wine Also by that which writeth Theodoret in his first Dialogue and in these proper termes The Lord hath honoured with the name of his body and of his bloud the visible signes which doo represent them neuerthelesse without changing the nature of them but onely adding grace to nature The same Author in the second Dialogue speaking likewise of the bread and wine which are distributed in the Supper saith as followeth After sanctification these misticall signes depart not from their nature for they abide in their proper substance forme and figure By meanes whereof one seeth and handleth them after consecration nor more nor lesse then he did before Also by that which saith S. Iohn Chrisostome writing to the Monke Cesarius whose words are such In the Supper we call that which is presented bread before it be sanctified and after sanctification thereof by the diuine grace and meane of the Minister it hath no more the name bread but of the body of the Lord neuerthelesse the nature of the bread is there still remaining By the passages aforesaid as well of the holy scripture as of the auntient Doctors and others which might be yet alledged for this purpose it appeareth that the bread and wine in the Supper abide alwayes as hath bene said in their proper nature and substance as well after consecration as before And it must not be doubted that the faith of the auncient Church hath not euer bene such and that transubstantiation was not setled nor holden in the Romane Church for an Article of faith vntill the time of Innocent the third To gainesay and reiect whatsoeuer hath bene said touching the nature and substance of signes which remaine after consecration the aduersaries of this doctrine do ordinarily alledge that which Iesus Christ saith speaking of the bread in the institution of the Supper Take eate this is my body And resting vpon the naturall and proper signification of the words they obstinately defend that the substance of bread vanisheth in the consecratiō and that there remaineth no other substance but that of the body of Iesus Christ The reason thereof is because they obserue not the figures and maner of speaking which be ordinarie and vsuall in the holy scripture alwayes and as often as the matter of the Saments is questionable For then the name of the things signified is ordinarily attributed to the signes which do signifie and represent them as the name of a couenant is attributed to Circumcision because it was deputed to signifie and confirme the same The Lambe for like reason is called the Passeouer and Baptisme the washing of regeneration not because they bee like and semblable things as the signes and mysteries signified by them but for the conformitie that is betweene them the signes as saith Saint Augustine take oftentimes the name of the things which they represent The error then commeth because they take and vnderstand the fashions and maners of figuratiue speeches as if they were proper and naturall Now that this kinde of speaking Take yee and eate yee This is my body is figuratiue it appeareth by that which our Lord Iesus Christ addeth after the Cup saying This Cup is the new Testament in my bloud which is shead for you Where he calleth the Cup Testament and new Couenant in his bloud Wherein it behoueth necessarily to confesse that there is a figure and that without the same they cannot well vnderstand nor fitly interpret the said passages For it is a thing manifest that a couenant which is a contract and bargaine betweene parties made and conceiued vnder a certaine promise and word is not wine And neuerthelesse it is so called by figure for as much as the wine which is distributed in the
shuld make a long and vnprofitable aboad at Paris not hauing wherewithall to imploy theyr time Considering they were not there but by accident to wit that de Spina was come thither to passe further and make a voyage into Aniou and the other who was Minister of the Church of Orleance was lately come forth of prison where he had beene brought in the Moneth of Iune next precedent vpon a false accusation suborned against him by the enemies of Gods Church which charged him to be author of a pernicious and wicked booke written against the obedience due to Kings and Princes Therefore was it very hurtfull for him to soâ—ournâ— so long a time in a Citie whither hee came against his lyking For these causes they purposed to returne towards my Lord of Neuers to shew vnto him the things aforesaid and tell him that De Sainctes who might haue stayed and ioyned some other with him in the stead of Vigor was departed thence without making it knowne when his returne would be that it was not reason they should stay there being incertaine of that which they had to doo and considering that their Churches had need of them to execute therin their charges and that they desired the same Notwithstanding in the end they found it better to suffer an inconuenience and to abide there vntill my Lord of Neuers departed from Paris as in the end of the Moneth of August he should goe to his owne land called Coâ—lomiers For seeing the Doctors were then absent the Lord of Neuers being departed the Ministers could doo nothing not hauing whom to write vnto nor with whom to conferre These remonstances being liked by the said Lord hee gaue them leaue to depart by writing signed Lodouico de Gonzague and below Varin Secretarie Dated 26. of August wherein were declared the occasions here before touched and remoÌ„strance of the Ministers with promise made by the said Lord to cause the answeres which the Doctors would make to be brought vnto them And that by the meane of Monsieur de Buci S. George who was charged with this businesse Also the Ministers promised to be readie were it to returne to Paris or else to answere from the place where they should be as often as the Doctors should write These things thus done and passed the Ministers returned presently after supposing to haue some speedie newes from the Doctors But they haue attended and yet do attend without that there hath bene any appearance thereof And they vnderstood nothing of that matter sauing that many seuerall writings were afterwardes cryed and solde through the Citie of Paris In the tytles whereof some found meane to enterlace the word Conference to make shewe vnto the world that it was something touching the former disputations And such a subtiltie indeed was not without great profit to the Printers So great desire had men to know the truth of the thing For contentation of whom we haue thought meet to bring to light what was done concerning the same reseruing to another time to publish what the Doctors when they shall do it shall write against it and what the Ministers also will there vnto answere if they can recouer the same In the meane time shall each one be admonished to make profit of that which is here contained And to pray the Father of lights to shead more more the brightnesse of his spirit vpon his Church to the true vnderstanding of his holy word for the restauration and aduancement of the spirituall kingdome of Iesus Christ his sonne our Lord. So be it the 8. of Nouember 1566. FINIS A briefe Table of the titles of the Acts of the Disputation THe Preface containing the occasions of the Dispute following The first day of the Disputation which was Tuesday the 9. of Iuly 1566. touching the assurance one ought to haue of the word of God and of the meane to knowe what is the word of God and to discerne betweene the bookes of the Bible to call the one Canonicall and the other Apocripha The second day being Wednesday the 10. of Iuly touching the same matter with the resolution of the Doctors concluding that it is by the authoritie of the Church that the holy scripture is knowne to be the word of God And the resolution of the Ministers to the contrary That it is the spirite of God which sealeth and imprinteth the assurance thereof in the harts of the elect The third day being Thursday the 11. of Iuly containing the demaunds and answeres vpon the Creede of the Apostles and why it is so called The fourth day being Friday the 12. of Iuly comprehending the resolution of the Doctors concluding that it is by the tradition of the Church that one is assured of the Creed of the Apostles And that of the Ministers tending to this that it is knowne by the conformitie which it hath with the holy scriptures The fift day being Mâ—nday the 15. of Iuly where is the beginning of the disputation of Gods Omnipotencie vnder the couert whereof the Doctors do ground foure points contained in the 63. Page On this Omnipotencie and the points aboue said the disputes following as well by word as by writing were continued The sixt day of the Dispute Tuesday the 16. of Iuly The Ministers answere to the obiections of the Doctors 〈◊〉 Tuesday the 16. of Iuly The reply or obiection of the Doctors against the answere of the Ministers touching the article of Gods omnipotencie on Satterday the 20. of Iuly The answere of the Ministers to the writing of the Doctors sent to them by my Lord the Duke of Neuers the 22. of Iuly about fiue of the clocke in the euening the yeare 1566. The reply of the Doctors to the writing of the Ministers sent to them by my Lord the Duke of Neuers the 25. day of Iuly about 8 of the clocke in the euening the yeare 1566. The Resolution of the Doctors touching the article of the Almightinesse of God in respect of the foure questions proposed by them to the Ministers Which serue to the vnderstanding of the reall presence of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ in the holy Sacrament The articles proposed by the Doctors for the next and other conferences following according to the order of the said articles The answere of the Ministers to the writing of the Doctors sent to them by my Lord the Duke of Neuers the 28. of Iuly about seuen of the clocke in the euening the yeare 1566. A briefe resolution of all the answeres and discourses which the Ministers haue made vpon the matter of Gods omnipotencie in the conference which they haue had with the Doctors The answeres to the preface of the Doctors questions The answeres to the questions proposed by the Doctors touching the Supper A briefe reply of the Doctors against the last answere of the Ministers sent to them by my Lord the Duke of Niuernois the first of August at 7. of the clocke in the euening Anno.