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A02848 An ansvver to the first part of a certaine conference, concerning succession, published not long since vnder the name of R. Dolman Hayward, John, Sir, 1564?-1627. 1603 (1603) STC 12988; ESTC S103906 98,388 178

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was crowned in writing also that the States did consult in Parliament of creating a new king after the custome of their auncestors it is a sleepie ieast to straine euery word in such an author to proprietie of speech You might better haue cited what certaine cities in Fraunce not long since alledged for themselues That because they had not reputed Henry the fourth for their king because they had not professed alleageance vnto him they were not to be adiudged rebels whereupon notwithstanding the chiefest Lawyers of our age did resolue that forasmuch as they were originall subiects euen subiects by birth they were rebels in bearing armes against their king although they had neuer professed alleageance And this is so euidently the lawe of the Realme that it is presumption in vs both in you to assay by your shallow Sophistrie to obscure or impugne in me to indeuour by authorities and arguments to manifest or defend the same But the admission of the people you say hath often preuailed against right of succession So haue pyrates against merchants so haue murtherers and theeues against true meaning trauellers And this disloyalty of the people hath moued diuerse kings to cause their sonnes to be crowned during their owne liues because the vnsetled state of succeeding kings doth giue oportunitie to bouldest attempts and not as you dreame because admission is of more importance then succession I will examine your examples in the Chapters following In the meane time where you write that king Henry and king Edward both called the Fourth had no better way to appease their minds at the time of their death but by founding their title vpon consent of the people the Authors which you cite do plainely charge you with vnexcuseable vntruth King Edward neuer made question of his right king Henry did as some other Authors report but applied no such deceiptfull comfort this false skinne would not then serue to couer his wound To the seuenth Chapter which beareth title How the next in succession by propinquity of bloud haue oftentimes bin put backe by the commonwealth others further off admitted in their places euen in those kingdoms where succession preuaileth with many examples of the kingdome of Israel and Spaine HERE you present your selfe very pensiue to your audience as though you had so ouer-strained your wits with store of examples of the next in succession not admitted to the state that you had cracked the creadite of them for euer But you are worthy of blame either for endangering or troubling your selfe in matters of so small aduantage I haue shewed before that exāples suffice not to make any proofe and yet herein doth consist the greatest shew of your strength It is dangerous for men to be gouerned by examples though good except they can assure themselues of the same concurrence of reasons not onely in generall but in particularities of the same direction also and cariage in counsell and lastly of the same fauourable fortune but in actions which are euill the imitation is commonly worse then the example Your puffie discourse then is a heape of words without any waight you make mountaines not of Mole-hils but of moates long haruest for a small deale not of corne but of cockle and as one sayd at the shearing of hogges great crie for a little and that not very fine wooll Yea but of necessitie something you must say yea but this something is no more then nothing You suppose that either your opinion will be accepted more for authority of your person then waight of your proofes or else that any words will slide easily into the minds of those who are lulled in the humour of the same inclination because partialitie will not suffer men to discerne truth being easily beguiled in things they desire Besides whatsoeuer countenance you cary that all your examples are free from exception yet if you had cast out those which are impertinent or vniust or else vntrue you could not haue beene ouer-charged with the rest Your first example that none of the children of Saule did succeede him in the crowne is altogether impertinent because by particular and expresse appointment of God the kingdome was broken from his posteritie We acknowledge that God is the onely superiour Iudge of supreme Kings hauing absolute both right and power to dispose and transpose their estates as he please Neither must we examine his actions by any course of law because his will is aboue all law He hath enioyned the people to be obedient to their Kings he hath not made them equall in authoritie to himselfe And whereas out of this example you deduce that the fault of the father may preiudicate the sonnes right although he had no part in the fault to speake moderately of you your iudgement is either deceitfull or weake God in his high Iustice doth punish indeed the sinnes of parents vpon their posterity but for the ordinary course of humane iustice he hath giuen a law that the sonne shall not beare the iniquity of the father the equity wherof is regularly followed both by the Ciuill and Canon law and by the interpretors of them both Your second example is of King Salomon who succeeded in the state of Dauid his father notwithstanding he was his yongest sonne But this example in many respects falleth not within the compasse of your case First because he was not appointed successor by the people we speake not what the king and the people may do to direct succession but what the people may do alone Secondly for that the kingdome was not then stablished in succession Lastly for that the action was led by two Prophets Dauid and Nathan according to the expresse choise and direction of God whereby it is no rule for ordinary right Here many points do challenge you of indiscretion at the least You write that Dauid made a promise to Bathsheba in his youth that Salomon should succeed in his estate but if you had considered at what yeares Salomon began to raigne you should haue found that Dauid could not make any such promise but he must be a youth about threescore yeares of age You write also that Dauid adored his sonne Salomon from his bed but the words wherewith Dauid worshipped were these Blessed be the Lord God of Israel who hath made one to sit on my throne this day euen in my sight whereby it is euident that Dauid adored God and not his son This I note rather for obseruation of the loosenesse of your iudgement then for any thing it maketh to the purpose You are so accustomed to vntruths that you fall into them without either aduantage or end The like answer may be giuen to your example of Rehoboam because God declared his sentence therein by two Prophets Ahijah and Shemaiah But for that the ten tribes reuolted from Rehoboam vpō discontentment at his rough answer and with dispite against Dauid
make a sower face at this it will go very much against your stomackes but there is no remedie you must take it down they are your good lords they may dispossesse you Prophane Bellarmine is Christian Religion a meere policie doth it applie it selfe onlie to the present Doth it turne alwaies with the time May the principal professors thereof say as an infidel Moore did whē he violated the faith which he had giuen vnto christians We haue no bone in our tongues that we cannot turne them which way we please Wee seee plainlie that you say so and it is as plaine that it was far from the true meaning of the Apostles S. Iude writeth sharpelie against those who had mens per●ons in admiration because of aduvntage S. Paul also saith Goe I about to please men If I should please men I were not then the seruant of Christ. I wil giue you an example of another time Nabuchadnezzar king of Assyria wasted al Palestina tooke Hierusalem slew the king burnt the Temple tooke away the holy vessels and treasure the residue he permitted to the crueltie and spoile of his vnmerciful soldiers who defiled al places with rape ruine and bloud After the glut of this butcherie the people which remained he led captiue into Chaldaea and there commaunded that whosoeuer refused to worship his golden image should be cast into a firie furnace What crueltie what impietie is comparable to this and yet the Prophets Ieremiah and Baruch did write to those captiue Iewes to praie for the prosperitie and life of him and of Baltazar his sonne that their daies might be vpon earth as the daies of heauen and Ezechiel both blameth and threatneth Zedechia for his disloialtie in reuolting from Nabuchadnezzar whose homager and tributarie he was What answere wil you make to this example I am wiselie busied to cast forth this question what answere can you make which your owne knowledg will not conuince Many other places there are in holy Scripture whereby not onely our actions are tied to obedience He that doth presumptuously against the ruler of the people shal die but also our words Thou shalt not speake euill against the ruler of the people yea our secret thoughts Detract not from the king no not in thy thought for the foules of the aire shall carie thy voice The reason hereof is not obscure Because princes are the immediat ministers of God therefore he called Nabuchadnezzar his seruant promised him also hire wages for the seruice which he did And the Prophet Esay calleth Cyrus a prophane heathen king the Lords annointed For as Salomon saith The harts of kings are in the hands of the Lord he stirreth vp the spirit euen of wicked Princes to do his wil as Iehoshaphat said to his rulers they execute not the will of man but of the Lord. In regard hereof Dauid calleth thē gods whereof Plato also had some sense when he said A king is in steed of god And if they do abuse their power they are not to be iudged by their subiects as being both inferiour and naked of authoritie because all iurisdiction within their realme is deriued from thē which their presence only doth silence suspend but God reserueth them to the ●orest trial Horribly and sodainly saith the wise man will the Lord appeare vnto thē and a hard iudgment shal they haue You Iesuits do yeeld a blindfold obediēce to your superiours not once examining either what hee is or what he doth commād although the Pope should swarue frō iustice yet by the canons men are bound to performe obedience vnto him and God only may iudge his doings and may a king the Lords Lieutenant the Lords annointed in the view of his subiects nay by the hands of his subiects bee cast out of state May he as was Actaeon be chased and wooried by his own hounds Wil you make him of worse conditiō then the Lord of a Manor then a parish priest then a poore schoolemaster who cannot be remoued by those that are vnder their authoritie and charge The law of God cōmandeth that the child should die for anie contumely done vnto the Parents But what if the father be a robber if a murtherer if for all excesse of villanies odious execrable both to God and man Surely hee deserueth the highest degree of punishment yet must not the son lift vp his hand against him for as Quintilian saith No offence is so great as to be punished by parricide But our country is dearer to vs then our selues the Prince is the father of our country whose authoritie as Baldus noteth is greater then of parents and therfore he must not be violated how impious how imperious soeuer he be If hee commaundeth those things that are lawfull we must manifest our obedience by readie performing If he inioine vs those actions that are euill we must shew our subiection by patient enduring It is God only who seateth kings in their state it is he only who may remoue them The Lord wil set a wise king ouer the people which he loueth as himselfe doth testifie And againe For the sins of the land the kings are changed As therefore wee endure with patience vnseasonable weather vnfruitful yeares other like punishments of God so must wee tolerate the imperfections of Princes and quietly expect either reformation or els a change This was the doctrine of the ancient Christians euen against their most mortall persecuters Tertullian saith For what warre are we not both seruiceable and readie although vnequall in number who doe so willingly endure to be slaine neither want we strength of number but God forbid that religion should be maintained with humane fire From him also Saint Cyprian a most studious reader of Tertullian as Saint Hierome noteth in like maner writeth Although our people bee exceeding copious yet it doth not reuenge it selfe against violence it suffreth Saint Augustin saith It is a generall paction of humane societie to obey kings Which sentence is assumed into the body of the canon law In a word the current of the ancient fathers is in this point concurrent insomuch as among thē all there is not one found not anie one one is a small number and yet I say confidently againe there is not anie one who hath let fall so loose a speech as may be strained to a contrarie sense How then are you of late become both so actiue resolute to cut in sunder the reines of obedience the verie sinewes of gouernment order Whence had Benedetto Palmto a Iesuite his warrant to incite William Parrie to vndertake the parricide of our Queene whence did Annibal Codretto another Iesuite assure him that the true Church made no question but that the fact was lawfull Whence did Guignard a Iesuite terme the
haue stumbled and some fallen Besides it ordinarily happeneth that good princes succeede tyrants partly because they are so indeede as being instructed to a better mannage of gouernment both by the miserable life of their predecessors and by the o●gly infamie which remaineth after their death partly because by meanes of the comparison they both seeme and are reported to bee farre better then they are Heerevpon Lampridius saith of Alexander Seuerus I may also say that Alexander was a good Prince by feare for that Heltogab●lus his predecessor was both an euill prince and also massacred and slaine Seing therefore the reason is so manifest wherefore good princes should succeede tyrants is it not rashnesse is it not impudencie is it not impietie for vs to wade with vncleane feete into Gods secret counsells vnknowne to the Angells and to iustifie vpon this euent the paricide of any prince For my part I know not whether you shew your selfe more presumptuous in entering into this obseruation or in pursuing it more idle and impure I will passe ouer your protestation of respect and obedience due vnto Princes protest what you please wee will take you for no other then a vile ●inde of vermine which if it bee permitted to creepe into the bowels of any state will gnaw the hart strings thereof in sunder This you manifest by the course comparison which presently you annexe that as a naturall body hath authoritie to cure the head if it be out of tune and reason to cut it off oftentimes if it were able to take another so a body politick hath power to cure or cut off the head if it be vnsound But what either will or power hath any part of the body in it selfe what either sence for the one or motion for the other which proceedeth not altogether from the head where is the reason seated which you attribute to the body both in iudging and curing the infirmities of the head Certaine it is that in your cutting cure you deale like a foolish phisition who finding a body halfe taken and benummed with a palsie cutteth off that part to cure the other and so make sure to destroy both You suppose belike that to enter into greater perills is the onely remedie of present dangers I omit to presse many points of this comparison against you because comparisons do serue rather to illustrate then inforce and I know not what assertion you might not easely make good if such sencelesse prating might goe for proofe I come now to your particular examples wherof the first is of King Saule whom you affirme to be depriued and put to death for his disobedience Saule depriued and put to death I neuer heard that any of his subiects did euer lift vp one thought against him Dreamer you will say hee was slaine by the Philistimes good but who depriued him it was God you say who did depriue him You must pardon vs if vpon the sodaine wee doe not conceiue the misterie of your meaning your vvords of depriuation and putting to death doe rather import a iudiciall proceeding against him thē that God deliuered him to be vanquished by his enemies in the field But vvhat is this to dispossessing by subiects yes you say because vvhat soeuer God hath put in vre in his common vvealth may be practised by others Why but then also good princes may be deposed by their subiects because God deliuered Iosiah to be slaine by the Aegiptians You firebrands of strife you trumpets of sedition you red horses vvhose sitters haue taken peace from the earth how impudently doe you abuse the scriptures how doe you defile them vvith your filchie fingers It is most certaine that Dauid knew both because Samuel tould him and because he had the spirit of prophesie that God had reiected Saul and designed him to be king in his place yet his doctrine was alwaies not to touch the Lords anoin●ed wherto his actions vvere also answerable For vvhen Saul did most violently persecute him he defended himselfe no otherwise then by flight During this pursuit Saul fell twice in to his power once he dyd not onely spare but protect him and rebuke the pretorian soldiers for their negligent vvatch the other time his hart did smite him for that he had cut away the lappe of his garment Lastly he caused the messenger to be slaine vvho vpon request and for pittie had furthered as he said the death of that sacred King Wee haue a precept of obedience vvhich is the mould vvherein vvee ought to fashion our actions God onely is superiour to princes vvho vseth many instruments in the execution of his iustice but his aucthoritie he hath committed vnto none Your second example is of king Amon vvho vvas slaine as you vvright by his owne people because he vvalked not in the vvayes of the Lord. This is somewhat indeed if it be true let vs turne to the text Amon was xxii yeeres ould when he began to reigne c. and he did euill in the sight of the Lord c. and his seruants conspired against him slew him in his house and the people smote all those who conspired against king Amon and made Iosiah his sonne king in his stead But this is very different from that which you report Amon was slaine by his seruants and not by the people who were so far from working that they seuerely reuenged his death And although Amon was euill yet the scripture laieth not his euill for the motiue whervpon his seruants slue him The diuell himselfe in alleaging the scripture vsed more honestie sinceritie if I may so terme it then you for he cited the very vvords vvresting them onely to a crooked sence but you change the vvords of the Scripture you counterfeit Gods coine you corrupt the recordes vvhich he hath left vs. I vvill now shake of all respect of ciuilitie towards you and tell you in flat and open termes that as one part of your assertion is true that good Kings succeeded Saul and Amon so the other part that either they vvere or in right could haue bene depriued and put to death by their subiects it is a sacrilegious a logger-headed lye Of your example of Romulus I haue spoken before I haue declared also how the Romanes presently after the expelling of their kings for that cause were almost ouerwhelmed with the weight of warre being beaten home to the very gates of their citie And had not Chocles by a miracle of manhood susteined the shock of the enemies whilest a bridge was broken behind him the towne had bene entred and their state ruined And wheras you attribute the inlargement of the empire which happened many ages after to this expelling of their kings you might as well haue saide that the rebellion against king Iohn was the cause of the victories which wee haue since had in France I haue before declared that the state of the Romanes vnder their consulls was popular rather