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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A41330	The questions between the conformist and nonconformist, truly stated, and briefly discussed Dr. Falkner, The friendly debate &c., examined and answered : together with a discourse about separation, and some animadversions upon Dr. Stillingfleet's book entituled, The unreasonableness of separation : observations upon Dr. Templers sermon preached at a visitation in Cambridge : a brief vindication of Mr. Stephen Marshal.	Firmin, Giles, 1614-1697.	1681 (1681)	Wing F962; ESTC R16085	105,802	120

be Gods Ape and hateful enemy then God must have no worship and every time the Devil imitates Gods worship God must change his worship and appoint new means of worship I pray Sir did the Devil or God first appoint Sacrifices why may I not think the Devil understood something of the promised seed and the meaning of the Sacrifices and in the following Ages in hatred and revenge against God and hatred of souls drew men to sacrifice to himself not only beasts but men as being the best of Creatures and so most acceptable Sacrifice in the imitation of Isaac that should have been sacrificed and thus he got before God Sir I pray do this shew us where there were Ceremonies first invented by Idolators depending only on their wills as yours do and you tell us you may change them when you please these were used in idalatrous worship and the Church of God translated those Ceremonies I do not mean individual from the idolatrous Temples into the worship of the holy and true God and he approved of them This you must prove or else you speak not home to our Case The last thing Mr. Falkner brings is the Testimony of worthy men about retaining some Ceremonies c. I only say I honour the men but I am of Mr. Falkner's opinion that the holy Scriptures are the only unerring Rule and I will willingly follow them so men where they follow Christ Several Distinctions about significant signs Mr. Falkner makes but I see not how any of them reach the Question no not so much as one 1. Here are signs depending only on the Wills of Men. 2. These signs are Instituted to Instruct us in our Duty towards God 3. These are said to be helps for our Edification 4. These signs are appropriated and annexed to the Worship of God While we Administer his signs we set up our signs 5. He that useth not these signs is turned out of the work of the Lord and shall not worship the Lord. I desire Mr. Falk would either from express Scripture or necessary consequence from Scripture or from the example of any holy and ordinary persons in Scripture approved by God I say I desire from either of these he would prove such signs in this manner Imposed Did Moses ever dare to Institute one Exciting which is one Distinction sign and annex it to the worship of God more than he had in charge from God yea and turn out those Priests that would not use it It is said of your Ceremonies they are not Dark and Dumb but so set forth that every man may understand what they mean May every man understand c truly I have known the Surplice above fifty years but never understood that the putting on a Surplice should properly signifie the Reverence we bear to God and the high esteem of his ordinances till Mr. Falk told me so p. 391. nor I believe did few Preists so understand it It seems then when you put off the Surplice going into Pulpit now you declare a lower esteem of God and his Ordinances Others tell us it signifies Purity others Decency it seems you are not agreed in the ends of your own inventions But for your exciting sign in the Cross many thousands if not millions of Children in England have been baptized with this sign I pray Name but One of these that ever was Excited to fight under Christs Banner by this sign Reason is a word in which the Conforming party glory much all Learning and Reason they have engrossed I pray Sir shew us the Reason how the moving of a Priests finger over an Infants Fore-head in its Baptism comes to have that efficacy to excite that Infant to fight under Christs Banner How the Christians of old used the real sign of the Cross I know I do not go about to justifie or condemn their practise but this is another thing or shadow of a thing no wonder though your own Mr. Carr calls your Ceremonies trifles things of which come no good Surely Sir while you speak of the Reverence of God we should show more Reverence to that Majesty in being content with his Soveraignty and wisdom in his own Institutions and not annex vain empty trifles to them and turn out those men who will not submit unto them CHAP. III. THE next thing required of us is our subjection to the Ecclesiastical Government consisting of six distinct Officers or more that exercise Church-power and holy Writ knows but one of them In the Commonwealth none dare pretend to Office but only such as the King and the Law authorize and appoint if there should be any other their power and actions were null invalid and they liable to punishment But in the Church men can be more bold Here Dr. Stillingfleet's notion if true must help us viz. That Christ hath appointed or determined no form of Government in the Church but left it to the chief Magistrates or Church-governours to appoint the form c. the design of his Irenicon In that Iearned Piece there are several things I must yield to as That the power of Ordination is proper to the name 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 p. 285. To which let me add what Mr. Samuel Smith a Minister dead above 20 years since told us he with many others being at one time Ordained by the Bishop of Peterborough the Bishop bad them all take notice That he did not Ordain as Bishop but as Presbyter this Mr. Smith would take his Oath to be true yet Bishop Gauden told me The power of Ordination was solely in the Bishop and though Presbyters did impose hands with the Bishop it was out of courtesie Thank you Sir I am not to meddle with this now I presume he would defend this as well as he did the Jus Divinum of Episcopacy in the several sheets that passed betwixt us upon the question but whence then comes Reordination to the same office in the same Church a thing unknown to Fathers Councils Papists Lutherans Calvinists but only to this new Edition of Conformists 2ly I shall yield also to him in this That it is not necessary there should be so many particular Churches as particular Congregations And this is a question of great moment Of this a word hereafter 3ly I agree also with him That the power of Order and Jurisdiction is committed by Christ ex aequo to all Ministers of the Gospel actu primo or habitually p. 197 198 275. By this we may understand what he means by Church Governours in the Question To which I shall speak but briefly though I had prepared a larger discourse upon it Three things then I would prove 1. That Christ hath appointed a Form of Government in his Church 2ly I will shew what that form is and this will prove the first 3ly That form is Jure Divino Consequently if this Ecclesiastical Government which we are required to subject to be not according to that

several houses at that time where they had prepared in one house such bitter herbs as Sichory Wild Lettice which they say they used in another house Wormwood and Horehound in another Centory Germander in another bitter Almonds and Gentian c. so mention twenty more differences yet if Bitternesses were observed the rule was kept Again shall these bitternesses be boiled or raw beaten into a sawce like our Mustard as Scaliger saith the Churoseth was here is nothing determined be sure there be bitternesses and the general Rule is kept Again here is no mention made of drink but to have a Lamb and unleavened bread eaten and bitter things and not drink it had been a dry Feast fit to choak them Again the Lamb must be roast but how must it be without a Spit as we use sometimes or with a Spit and if so whether with a Spit made of Iron c. or Wood and that of a Pomegranate tree as a Learned man supposeth who can tell there is nothing determined or expressed and I prefume that Learned Author was not there to turn the Spit Again it must be roast but must the fire be made of wood or coal or turff or other combustible matter not a word of any such thing Thus I might reckon up many more circumstances that I wonder at this Author and another of his party answering for their Ceremonies telling us This is the difference between the Law and the Gospel that under the Law all ceremonies and circumstances are exactly prescribed not so under the Gospel How true this is the Reader may judg Leaving then this Author a while let us come to the stating of the Questions and for the first about Forms of Prayer Mr. Carre begins his Book and states the Question thus 1. Forms of Prayer are lawful thus it was stated in the Commencement-house when Dr. Fern was Vicechancellor and moderated I yield it being my own practice to compose Forms for my Children and for others who could not express themselves in fit words in their families before their servants and what then what is this to our business 2. For the Ceremonies The Church hath power in circumstances and who denies it 3. For Government some Episcopacy is lawful The Proposition must not be universal for then we shall setch in a Universal Bishop which as yet our opponents do not like Make it particular for my part I yield it I shall therefore now give the true state of the Questions and then leave it to the judicious Reader to see whether any one argument the Conformists use conclude the Questions For the First about imposed Forms of Prayer the question is this Quest The Question about Forms Prayer stated Whether the Lord Jesus hath given such power to any ordinary persons Civil or Ecclesiastical to compise and impose their Forms of Prayer upon his Ministers in the Gospel-church whom he hath sufficiently qualified for his work unto which he hath called them so that in their ministration and worshipping of God by prayer his Ministers must be tyed up to those very Forms and Syllables and not vary from them Let me open the Question 1st That Christ is Lord of his House King of his Church having the only power over it to institute what he please no Christian will deny 2ly True Ministers of the Gospel are his Ministers they have their talents and abilities from him their call and authority from him Their Laws and Doctrine what they must preach and how they must order all things in the Church from him They have a promise of his Presence and unto him must they give an account of their work 3ly These Ministers being his are sufficiently qualified in one sense it is true 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 2 Cor. 2. 16. who is sufficient but yet again Timothy is charged that those whom he takes into the Ministry be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sufficient men Praying and Preaching are the two great works of a Minister Act. 6.4 to declare the will of God to the people and to open and present the wants of the people unto God is their business and whom Christ sends of his errand he fits them for both or never sends them Ephes 4.8 11. He prepareth gifts for his If your Forms of Prayer will make a man sufficient I know not who shall be insufficient if he can but read well 4ly These are Christs Ministers in the Gospel church I hope 't is no strange thing to put a difference between the Ministers of the Old and New Testament Gal 4.1 2 Cor. 3 c. that the Spirit is given by Christs Ascension in a greater measure both as to gifts and grace to the body of the Gospel-Church than to the old Church hath been unquestioned Divinity by the Conformists 5ly For ordinary persons to impose such as cannot dare not lay claim to an extraodinary Mission as the Prophets and Apostles had Yet the Apostles never imposed their Prayers on the Churches 6ly For these to tye up Christs Ministers to words and syllables in Prayer from which they must not vary This is the practise indeed but this is the question by what right this is done What I have heard in answer to it is that the Church allows our own Prayers before and after Sermon 1. Whether the Church allow it I cannot tell the genuine Sons of the Church say no and will use only the Canon-prayer The Arch-Deacon in his Visitation did dehort the Ministers from the use of their own prayers with these words Though I do not command nor enjoin you yet I advise you to it it is more out of fear it would cause such an Odium among the people should they take them off from their own prayers wholly in places where there is any knowledg in ignorant places they use none at all but the Common-Prayer as I have certain intelligence of divers places The Fathers of the Church in their Conterence with the other Ministers at the Kings first coming in thus express themselves Account of the Proceedings c. p. 19. VVe heartily desire that according to this Proposal great care may be taken to suppress those private conceptions of pray ers before and after Sermons As the Judges are the Interpreters of Statute-Laws so surely the Bishops of the Canons Now it is clear they would take away all but Book-prayer The judgment of Bishop VVren and Bishop Cozens is well known 2ly But if superiors being but ordinary persons have power to impose their Forms at Baptism the Lords supper c. all but before and after Sermon is it because their power of imposing is limited by God where I pray certainly by what power they take away the use of our own prayers before and after Sacraments they may before and after Sermons and that we see they desire it might be done but that they fear the consequence Let us come to their reasons for this One they draw from the Scriptures and that is

part The Spirit in prayer helpeth our Infirmities not only in the manner of our prayer but even in the matter of our prayer the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for so are the words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Quid oremus this infirmity the Spirit helps but now you will spare the Spirit that trouble for the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the things and words are all set down to a syllable Obj. The Fr. Deb. falsly so called for neither Author nor Book answer the title part 1. p. 88. tells us The Spirit of God doth not now suggest to any of us when we pray the very matter and words which we utter Ans 1. That the Spirit suggesteth All the words and matter I easily deny but that the Spirit doth help his people in the very matter of their prayers the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I must own it or give the lye to the Text. 2. Let me appeal to the experience of praying Christians Ministers and others when we have been called forth in our Ministerial work or at other times to pray that was the work lay before us when our hearts have been oppressed with some temptation our spirits quite down dead and flat the thoughts of our duty a terrour to us because we found no ability to it we could not tell what-to say unto the Lord we wanted words we wanted hearts we wanted every thing but to our work we must go we could not avoid it Well when we have been entred into our work have we not found a supply afforded our tongues untyed our hearts enlarged words and matter have come flowing in such sentences words and matter as were never in our minds before yet very apt and pertinent melting and warming that the best prayers ever we made have been at such times when we have gone most pressed with the sense of our own inability though it be not always so the Spirit is a free agent yet at these times whence could it come but from this good Spirit Shall he lose his glory 3. I thought that praying men use before-hand to pray for that good Spirit for a presence of Grace as to the spiritual manner of our work and a presence of assistance as to the matter of our work being conscious to our selves of the truth of the sayings of that great Apostle 2 Cor. 3.5 and 2.16 how the Spirit inspired the Prophets we enquire not but that he helpeth our Infirmities in our Duties shew me the sace of that Minister that feareth the Lord who will deny it and doth not feel the want of him Having these Scripture-grounds I go on to Arguments deduced also from Scripture 4. That practise which nourisheth Ministers in their laziness and sluggishness is certainly an unlawful practise But this practise of Composing and Imposing these Forms c. according to the question do so Ergo Ministers duty is to stir up the gifts of God which are in them 2 Tim. 1.6 but that duty now as to the gift of prayer is layed by The Fr. Debat tells us Part 1. pag. 124. That some of the Nonconformists are for Liturgy but they think it not convenient for men of their parts and gifts Truly Sir when our hearts are in any trim becoming the duty of prayer we find it a very great hindrance to be tyed up to the Forms of other men we cannot open our hearts nor spread before the Lord our desires in other mens conceptions we cannot work with their tools But when laziness despondency and unbelief prevail it is as convenient as may be for men of our sinful tempers I could tell you something of the experience of my own carnal heart as to this point but I find you are a person that jeer at the experiences of Christians and therefore let it alone 5. We are to pray for spiritual gifts 1 Cor. 14.1 I hope not only for extraordinary gifts Every good and perfect gift Jam. 1.17 tells us whence it comes Then for a gift of Preaching and a gift of Prayer But why should we pray for it if when the Lord hath given it we must not use it but be tyed up to other mens Forms 6. If you may impose Forms of Prayer then you may impose Forms of Preaching so leave us nothing but Forms of Prayer and Homilies to read as indeed they came in both together We have Forms of Preaching in the Scripture as you have of Prayer by what authority you take away one you may take away the other Your Humane reasons that I have met with as yet will as strongly argue for Forms of Preaching as of Prayer When this argument was urged in the Commencement-house the Respondent yielded it But Dr. Fern being then Moderator thought this was too gross and so denied the consequence Because in Prayer we spake to God but in preaching to men But the Doctors answer was invalid for in prayer we represent and are the mouth of a people of Infirmities we are but persons of Infirmities Here Infirmities are but like us the Lord expects no other from us Rom. 8.26 The Spirit helps our infirmities in prayer But in Preaching we speak from God we come in his Authority and require Faith and Obedience to what we preach therefore here we had need have a care what we speak for now we come with Thus saith the Lord. 7. Diversities of Gifts and Operations are the Spirits work and glory 1 Cor. 12.4.6 Diversities of Kinds and of Degrees in those kinds this diversity is seen in the gift of Prayer as well as in other gifts As to have in one Lords-day many thousands of Ministers confessing of sins petitioning for mercies pardon purging healing praying also for Kings c. they all aim at the same thing in their Prayers but the words sentences whereby they express the conceptions of their minds and desires of their hearts how various are they the same Spirit that gave this diversity of gifts assists them in the exercise of them And it is his glory which is taken away while these thousands of Ministers are tyed up to the same syllables in their Book This multi-form unity if I may so call it for here are various expressions different sentences yet all tend to one and the same thing hath better ground for it in Scripture than Vniformity in syllables 8. What want of wisdom care or grace yea want of all this with your Ceremonies charges upon the Apostles all men may see you pretend much wisdom and care of Gods worship in these things were the Apostles so defective in wisdom and care that they could not foresee the usefulness of these things in the Church and appoint them as well as you And that when there were the same reasons that you urge for them now in their time We are built upon the foundations of the Prophets and Apostles and take them to be as wise as any of their followers To conclude how honourable is this for the Ministry I will

ordained before Pauls journey to Jerusalem Acts 20. for he tells Timothy 1 Tim. 3.14 he hoped to come unto him shortly but Act. 20.25 when he sent for the Elders of Ephesus he tells them they shall see his face no more If Timothy then were Bishop of Ephesus before this time then he was there now and was now sent for which I shall never believe that Paul would not mention him in particular whose Name he uses to joyn with his in several Epistles But if Timothy did come with the other Elders here is no difference made of this Prelate from the other Elders but 28. ver he gives the same alike to them all Therefore I deny your Consequence If Timothy were Bishop of phesus what need Paul tell him in his second Epistle to him Chap. 4.12 Tychicus I have sent to Ephesus he might have spared that line for Timothy must needs know it if he came to him there But you add for a further Confirmation p. 28. the words of Christ Joh. 20.21 As my Father sent me so I send you But the Commission of Christ as an Apostle did undoubtedly extend to a superintendency over the Clergy and the particle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 justifie the same as to the Apostles c. A. Undoubtedly Christs Commission did extend as you say without limiting it to any precincts which you tell us several times the Apostles were and especially in p. 6. you would labour to prove it from 2 Cor. 10.16 Though that Text I conceive will not do it But if the particle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 will force their superintendency over the Clergy it will as well force it without limitation to such precincts for his Father did not so send him and how their Commission runs we read But I shall not give my thoughts about this now you tell us pag. 34. that among the Bishops Peter leads the Van in the Church of Antioch Pope Innocent this does not make for you I pray tell us in your next in which Church did Paul lead the Van among the Bishops But if Peter were Bishop at Antioch indeed Paul went beyond his Precinct when he dealt so roundly with a Bishop in his own See as he did with this Bishop of Antioch Gal. 2.11.14 2ly I conceive you stretch this Text beyond the intent of our Lord. For the work which our Lord undertook he had a Call from his Father who sent him Heb. 5.4 Joh. 6.27 and 10.36 His Father had Authority to send him and was with him Joh. 16.32 So he the Head and King of his Church having all power given to him in Heaven and in Earth Math. 28.18 had Authority to send forth his Apostles to their work they might show their Commissions or Credentials He promised also to be with them and their Successors to the end and I think all Gospel-Ministers are their Successors but that the Lord intended in these words the setling of a Superiority of one person above his brethren in the Ministry to the end of the world this is but Petitio pincipii your gloss and I deny it for the Reasons and Scriptures before mentioned 3ly Those Apostles had Superiority over Bishops if there were such then as you say there were yea Arch-Bishops who is now over them His third Text is Eph 4.12 13. Apostles were given and their Suffregans as you call them Prophets and Evangelists for the perfecting of the Saints hence pag. 30. you conclude for the duration of Prophets and Evangelists to this day Thus then we have to this day Apostles Prophets and Evangelists in the sense of this Text unless he will abuse the Text a rare sight I would go many miles to see such persons and to their Superiority willingly submit Calvin Gerhard Beza Zanchi the Leyden Professors c. tell us these were Ministri extraordinarii Temporarii but they were men of no Acuminated Intellects their judgements signifie little Well Sir what Apostles were you tell us not neither need you we know them well but where you can find such I know not but such you must find if your proof hold For the Prophets you tell us they were such as had an excellent skill to preach the Gospel out of the Books of the Old Testament 1 Cor. 13.2 Evangelical Doctrines locked up in the Figures of the Law and Predictions of the Prophets If this were all we shall find many such Prophets amongst the Nonconformists But Sir you have spoken very short of the Prophets Dr. Hammond Zanchy and Gerhard add two things more 1. A foretelling things to come 2ly They spake all from the Spirit from a Divine Afflatus These three are somewhat like I pray shew us these Prophets now The Evangelists you tell us are such as had a profound insight into the Gospel as contained in the Writings of the New-Testament and could with singular dexterity open and explain its true importance Such there are also amongst the Nonconformists But Sir what if there were Evangelists before there was any part of the New-Testament writtens how then does your description agree I question not if the Ancients say true of the time when John wrote his Gospel but Timothy was an Evangelist long before and in that Gospel are the deep Mysteries contained more than in the other three If the first Epistle to the Thessalonians were the first Epistle that Paul wrote as Divines generally think Timothy is joyned with Paul in the 1. ver so that very little was written when he first was made an Evangelist I see by some of your own and those Learned men Philip was an Evangelist when he preached the Gospel at Samaria and wrought Miracles Acts 8.5 6 7. but at that time no part of the New Testament was written For Matthew wrote first and that was eight years after the Ascension as our Divines for the generality of them agree But for the Evangelists Eusebius l. 3. Chap. 37. a fitter man to tell us what an Evangelist was than you gives us another description and that which agrees with Philip in Acts 8.5 6 7. and other Scriptures I shall note only these 1. That they watered the Churches every where planted by the Apostles 2. They preached Christ to them which as yet heard not of the Doctrine of Christ 3. Having planted the Faith in new and strange places they ordained there other Pastors committing to them the Tillage of the new ground pressing themselves to other People and Countries 4. By the power of the Holy Ghost they wrought miraculously Show us these Evangelists now His last Text is 1 Tim. 6.14 Keep the Commandments until the appearing of the Lord Jesus c. A. 1. By the appearing of the Lord c. exitus vitae is meant thinks Austin and some others But if not yet this appearing is an Argument used not only to Timothy but to all Christians to look to their duty Col. 3.4 Tit. 2.13 1. Pet. 17. 2. What Commandment this was if we well