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Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
lord_n	work_n	worship_n	worship_v	542	4	7.9118	4	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A10973	Two dialogues, or conferences (about an old question lately renued, and by the schismaticall company, both by printed pamphlets, and otherwise to the disturbance of the Churches quiet, and of peaceable minds, very hotly pursued.) Concerning kneeling in the very act of receiuing the sacramental bread and wine, in the Supper of the Lord The former betweene two ministers of the word, the one refractarie, and depriued; the other not so. The latter betweene an humorous schismatike and a setled professor.	Rogers, Thomas, d. 1616.	1608 (1608)	STC 21241; ESTC S116109	75,976	132

in time proue springs of idolatrie and superstition if vtterly and altogether they be not rooted out These are the thoughts of the brainsicke Brownists God forbid they should continue in your mind For what haue wee al-most in and about our publique seruice which hath not serued to some idolatrous and superstitious purpose or other in former daies must all such things therefore vtterly be abolished taken away Is it necessarie they should is it possible they can be remoued But what makes all this for the profe that either our Kneeling is superstitious or the Papists to be strengthned thereby in their Bread-worship and Idolatrie when by reason you cannot proue it if you can by experience S. Since this Kneeling and other things deuised or abused by the Papists haue been so strictly vrged they haue growne exceedingly in number in boldnes affirming that we are now come to sup of their broth and ere it be long we will eate of their meate R. Lamentable experience doth tell vs how the Papists haue but too exceedingly increased the more is the pitie but to ascribe the cause thereof so peremptorily vnto the strict vrging of conformitie and obedience vnto our Churches orders is more then he should doe which is not of the counsell of God I should rather and peraduenture do thinke that the obstinate refusing to Kneele and keepe the customes and maners of our Church doth not only hold backe many papists from ioyning with vs but also cause the number of Recusants to increase For is it likely that they being naturally but too strict precise obseruers of outward ceremonies themselues wil euer brooke that Church and people where wilful and refractarie men either bee not punished at all or but lightly and loosely censured Whefore though we cannot let them to increase which is the iust punishment of God for our abusing the inestimable treasure of his word yet would yet should they lesse abound did either priuate persons yeeld more obedience to the lawfull Iniunctions of authoritie or others being froward and incortigible publique officers more strictly vrge them thereunto And would you which I wish you would by your selfe note consider how these Papists doe laugh in their sleeues to heare of the hot and eager contention that is among vs about this kneeling and such other matters it would make you to weepe and doth cause me to sigh when I think therof as not seldome I doe Away therefore brother S. with this conceit that the strict vrging of conformitie encourageth the Papists this preconceit hath done much hurt and not onely keepeth backe many from concurring with their brethren in due obedience but also encourageth increaseth the dangerous faction of our home Brownists But this you will neuer put away so long as you are of mind which I pray God to alter that this Kneeling of ours was either deuised at the first or abused afterwards by the Papists and that nothing abused though not deuised by them may either be well vsed of inferiors or strictly vrged by the superior power when they are established No Papists I think wil affirm which you say that in Kneeling at the holy Communion we sup of their broth Our Kneeling hath as much resemblance of their adoring as our Communion affinitie with their Masse We sup not of their broth at our Communion no more then they drinke of the Lords cup at their Masse There is as little hope God be thanked that we shall eate of their meate as that they will feed of our Banquets THE SIXT OBIECTION S. IT is a worship of God deuised by man Ergo. Mat. 15. 9. Col. 2. 22. 23. R. So is Sitting so is Standing at the Communion a worshipping of God Howbeit none can truly say of Kneeling at the Lords table that it is a meere deuice of man as Sitting among vs is For it is so an humane as withall it is a diuine institution This gesture is of God because it belongeth vnto religious prayer vnto God and thankesgiuing though appointed by man and from men yet not from the idle sconce of man but from men illuminated by the holy Ghost from men of God S. If you denie it to bee a worship of God I could proue it R. I doe not denie it to be a worshipping or that in kneeling we doe worship God yet how proue you so much S. Thus. It is a bowing of the knee for a religious vse namely to shew our inward reuerence towards Christ whose bodie and blood are represented by bread and wine Ergo. R. Ergo What Ergo no adoration is it or shew of adoration of bread and wine which afore you affirmed say I. S. That is not my meaning but Ergo vnlawfull and not to be done say I. R. Vnlawfull Proue that S. The places of Scripture to that purpose are many R. Cite some of them S. Thou shalt not bowe downe to them nor worship them Exod. 20. 5. R. By this kind of gesture all kind of seruice and worship vnto idoles is forbidden which being so vnlesse you can proue which you shall neuer doe the bread and wine at our Communions to be idoll and also that in kneeling we doe seruice and worship vnto bread and wine you shall neuer make our kneeling at the receiuing of those creatures to be vnlawfull What is the next place of Scripture to this purpose S. It is out of the 95. Psalme where the Psalmist doeth say Come let vs worship and fall downe and kneele before the Lord our maker Psal. 95. 6. R. This maketh for our kneeling but proueth not the same vnlawfull The Papists do say that As often as any man seeeth that body viz. of their Lord and maker at the Masse or borne about to the sicke he shall kneele down deuoutly and say his Pater-noster or some other good prayer in worship of his soueraigne Lord Kneeled we downe when wee take the bread and wine with Popish thoughts and deuotion imagining our Lord and Maker vnder the formes of bread and wine reallie and locallie to be there present we then did against the expresse wordes of the Psalmist who doth exhort vs to worship and fall downe before the Lord our maker and not before the workes of our owne hands but comming thereunto with religious and Christian meditations we worship fall down and kneele before the Lord our maker euen when kneeling we receiue the Sacrament S. Yet will I leaue seuen thousand in Israel euen all the knees that haue not bowed vnto Baal and euery mouth that hath not kissed him saith the Lord. 1. Kings 19. 18. R. Why mention you this place To proue vs who at the Communion doe kneele to be like the Baalites Or why mention you this place To prooue your selues that refuse to kneele to be the seuen thousand pure ones in England free from all contagion of idolatry and superstition If to the former end then iudge you most badly of the whole State as

of Idolaters Baalites or Hypocrites and very vncharitably of your brethren as of men-pleasers Temporizers and I know not what For which I doubt not but your owne conscience doth chide you or will one time or other If to the latter end know you c. you shall neuer proue either vs that kneele to bee Time-seruers Men-pleasers and idolaters or those that will not stoope or bowe their knees no not at the Lords table and Communion to be the purest and best worshippers of God Haue you any more to say S. Yes Mark what Naaman said vnto the Prophet Herein the Lord be mercifull vnto me saith he that when my Master goeth into the house of Rimmon to worship there and leaneth on my hand and I bow my selfe in the house of Rimmon when I doe bow downe I say in the house of Rimmon the Lord be mercifull vnto thy seruant in this point 2. Kin. 5. 8. R. What likenes betweene the house of Rimmon and our Churches betweene the idol Rimmon and the holy Communion betweene Naamans bowing vnto or before an idoll and our bending the knee at the Lords table because the one was cursed and vnlawfull must needs the other be so S. When Cornelius fell downe at Peters feete and worshipped him accepted Peter of that adoration or rather did he not reproue Cornelius for so doing Acts 10. 25. 26. R. Cornelius shewed too much reuerence and farre passing decent order as though Peter had bin a God When we giue such adoration vnto the bread and wine blame vs for committing idolatrie as Peter did Cornelius you should proue that in worshipping God when wee kneele at the Lords table wee doe that which is vnlawfull and to that ende you beate your braines and trie your wits but to no purpose And though you see it a very difficult thing yea vnpossible for you to effect and know besides that our Church hath protested and published that the Sacrament of the Lordes supper is not by Christs institution to bee worshipped and neither directly nor indirectly imboldeneth any Communicant in Idolatrie or bread-worshippe but in adoring the Maker and Redeemer of vs all yet no remedie in kneeling wee are either Idolaters Baalites or Temporizing Naamites in your iudgement O hard and heauie censure Repent repent and change your vncharitable conceits THE SEVENTH OBIECTION S. IT is a breach of the second commandement R. Whither now No maruel that you liken vs to Idolaters Baalites Hypocrites when you dare affirme our kneeling to be a breach of the second commandement M. Caluin hauing perused our Leiturgie vsed in K. Edwards daies saith that he therin spied multas tolerabiles ineptias many tollerable imperfections but none intollerable impiety at all M. Cartwright that pried into that booke for all aduantages to bring it into dislike doth ingenuously confesse how the grosse errors and manifest impieties are taken away And M. Gifford writing against Barrow and Greenwood saith directly I stand to iustifie by the word of God that indeed there is neither idolatry heresie nor blasphemie in the same booke All these learned men against whom I know you will not accept though I could wish they had thought better of our Church do shew that what you here say is slanderous and vntrue But why is it a breach of the second commandement S. In that kneeling is a worshipping of God at or before a creature namely bread and wine R. May we not worship God at or before a creature Then may we not in our priuate houses with our familie nor in Gods house with our euen Christians worship God any way but it is a breach of the second commandement For who can any where or at any time worship God but it is either at or before some creature Had you said it had beene a breach of the second commandement to worship God at or before an idoll I had gone with you For it is a worshipping of the true God after a wicked and false manner but saying it is a breach of the second commandement to worship God at or before a creature without exception of any who can ioyne with you that hath his right wits S. It is a breach of the second commandement not only to worship an idoll but also God at or before any thing not appointed by himselfe for such an vse R. Then is it no breach of the second commandement to worship God at the participation of bread and wine at the holy Communion For he hath appointed them for such an vse for who can receiue them or how can they be receiued otherwise If what you say heere be true as it is most false you also that do sit when ye do participate of that heauenly repast as well as we that kneele are violaters of the second commandement For yee euen in sitting worship God as well as we in receiuing of the Sacrament and that before bread and wine too which are apppointed of God for such an vse And he eateth and drinketh vnworthily whether he kneele or sit who at the Lords table and when he receiueth bread and wine adoreth not God Ioshua fell downe prostrate before the Arke of God the Shunamite at the Prophet Elisha his feete the Priests and people of Israel bowed themselues and fell downe on their faces to the earth vpon the pauement and worshipped and praised the Lord and yet was neither Ioshua nor the Shunamite nor those holy Priests and people hitherto charged in these their actions to haue broken the second commandement of the Decalogue Cast your eyes I pray you vpon the Communion booke marke not only what euery one at the receiuing of the sacrament doth but what the Minister also at the deliuery of the bread wine saith and you shall find which you know well enough that it well beseemeth all Communicants to kneele at the hearing and consideration of such holy and heauenly wordes S. That prayer is not according to Christs institution R. Proue that our controuersie shal be quickly at an end S. Christ prayed onely in the consecration of bread and wine and not in the deliuerie of them R. Though he did well in praying at the consecration yet do we not ill in praying at the deliuerie of the Elements Neither can you shew a commandement from God either forbidding that we do or enioining the imitation of his example It hath afore beene proued by me and acknowledged by you that we are not necessarily and precisely bound to follow the doings of Christ in all things when wee administer the Sacraments S. The praier is ended before the receiuing of bread and wine and that some distance of time in great congregations where the Minister maketh the prayer but once but to some 40. or 50. Communicants who vsually sit all the time of praier and after that fall downe on their knees when the bread and wine are offered vnto them R. Impute not the disorders of some

of bread and wine which neede not be much Pro. Whatsoeuer you shall say it is but too much in a needelesse contention You haue beene told that wee Kneele not neither bee to Kneele in regard of bread and wine Schis Verily no sound Protestant of any knowledge will affirme it but rather presently consider that if kneeling be instituted for reuerence in regard of bread and wine it must be either because they represent the body and blood of Christ though remaining bread and wine touching their substance And then for like reason we may worship the crucifixe and image of God as the Papistes doe Pro. True Schis Or this reuerence is done to bread and wine because Christ is reallie bodily and locally though inuisiblie present in them either by transubstantiation according to the mind of the Papists or of consubstantiation according to the heresie of the Lutherans Pro. The Church of England and members of the same haue in equall detestation both of the Transubstantion of the Papists and the Consubstantiation of the Lutherans Schis Then it must needs follow that if wee abiure these heresies of Papists and Lutherans we must also abhor idolatrous and superstitious Kneeling their daughter and Nurse Pro. Wee abhorre idolatrous and superstitious kneeling from our hearts but not kneeling Our kneeling is neither superstitious nor idolatrous Schis We neuer heard of kneeling before transubstantiation was hatched in the sygnagoue of Antichrist so that immediatly after Pope Innocent decreed transubstantiation Pope Honorius decreed kneeling Therefore if Harding doth graunt that it is not well to kneele but in regard of a real and bodilie presence a sound Protestant should infer But I detest your reall presence Therefore Iabhorre your idolatrous kneeling Pro. We are to regard not so much who ordained kneeling at the first or when it was established and why as who commands it now and the vse thereof which we take to be verie good profitable and necessarie What though Harding doth say that wee doe not well to kneele but in regard of a reall and bodilie presence doe wee therefore ill which kneele hauing no such regard And though you tell vs a thousand times wee doe ill in kneeling because the Papists in kneeling doe adore the the bread and wine doe wee therefore ill which abhorre the Papists both doctrine and adoration Therefore whereas Harding doth grant that it is not well to kneele but in regard of a real and bodily presence and yee Schismatikes doe say and maintaine that wee doe ill to kneele not because wee doe but for that the Papists in regard of a certaine perswasion they haue of a bodily and real presence doe adore Bread and wine wee hold both them and you to bee much out of the way them for condemning our kneeling because it is not in adoration of bread and wine you for condemning our said Kneeling which is without all regard of such adoration SECT 12. Whether kneeling at the holy Communion bee a shew of euill and the greatest scandall Schis WE are to abhorre kneeling Pro. What all kneeling Schis I meane kneeling at the Lords Supper as in my proposition is expressed Pro. Why so For hitherto haue you giuen no sufficient and satisfying reason why wee should abhorre it Schis Because we abhorre the heresies of worshipping of Images Transubstantiation and Consubstantiation Pro. Though the heresies of worshipping Images Transubstantiation and Consubstantiation be detestable yet is not our Kneeling to be abhorred vnlesse you can proue vs guilty of those heresies or the like which we abhorre no men more Our gesture of Kneeling cannot be ill when our doctrine is good as the same gesture could not be good if our doctrine were vnsound and sauor of those heresies which you cannot truely say it doth You haue afore beene told that the gesture of it selfe is neither good nor euill but to bee esteemed according to the doctrine which they professe and hold that vse it a site as we vse it in the Church of England verie comely and commendable a gesture as Papists abuse it most horrable Schis Not in respect of those heresies onely but also because it is the shew of the greatest euils that euer were it is to be abhorred Pro. Those euils would be shewen Schis It carieth a shew first of Idolatrie in worshipping a God made of a piece of bread Pro. Artolatrie is the euill of the Romish Church there is neither that euill nor a shew thereof among vs who acknowledge no breaden God much lesse giue any shew of adoration vnto bread and wine The shew of such euils wee condemne euen as the euill it selfe wee abhorre You haue bin answered againe and againe that our adoration in Kneeling is to our God in heauen not to his creatures on earth nor to Christ in them or transubstantiated into them which because wee do not the Papists afore mentioned viz. Harding would not haue vs to Kneele because we adore not what they doe which did you conscionably remember would remoue this vncharitable suspition out of your head that our Kneeling carrieth a shew of Artolatrie grosse Idolatry This therefore is but an vniust surmize of yours What is the next euill euen the great euill that it beareth a shew of S. Euen our communion with Antichrist rather than with Christ. P. To communicate with Antichrist is not reuerently and religiously to kneele at the holy Communion but to communicate in the doctrine and superstitious worship professed and vsed in the Church of Rome Herein wee communicate not with the Papists nor they with vs. They say that our Protestants are Amalakites and Heretikes our doctrine heresie and that they which so cal it and that in the worst part that can be and in the worst sence that euer was doth rightly and iustly and that we are Paganis Turcis deteriores worser then Turkes and Pagans We said of them that their religion is rebellion their faith is faction their doctrine false and erronious their seruing of God superstitious and idolatrous all their doctrine and worship blasphemous and derogatorie in an high degree to the glory of God Hence haue they separated themselues from vs and our Churches by open recusancie and wee haue departed from them and their offices which they call Apostacie and vs Schismatickes for so doing These things were they duly considered as they ought seriously me thinkes it should be far from the thought of any man professing the same doctrine with vs and detesting the religion of the synagogue of Rome to imagine that we in kneeling doe communicate with that whorish Church who are not so seuered in doctrine and worship as for our worshipping of God and doctrine without all hope of atonement or reconciliation separated in body but in affections much more This notwithstanding were their doctrine and worship as good as the signes of their deuotion commendable whom we do communicate withall in a dumbe ceremony and in different if to