established church vizt such as are in captiuitie sicknes age or in such times place as they knowe not where to finde one day of the Sonne of man He might aswell conclude that because God is able doth saue some in the false Church Therfore priuate meÌ„ ought not to forsake the false Church God is able to saue some in dispertion out of the established Church Therfore priuate men ought not to seek the established Church THe last greatest matter is that we runne before the Princes commandement whose dutie it is to reforme Churches Priuate men might not so much as sweepe them much-lesse build them For this is to erect a state gouernmeÌ„t because the power of the Church is both publicke greate We haue aboue shewed that y e Church hath Gods coÌ„mandement authoritie alwaies to erect Christes ministri gouernment amongst them That the Church in this estate consisteth only of of priuate men neither are there anie true Ministers anie where to be found vpon the earth neither any extraordinarie Ministers to be looked for seing they are long since ceased Therfore the Church in this estate consisting only of priuate men ought to erect this ministerie and gouernment ells should they also cease and neuer be had againe vpon the earth and so should there neuer be any established Church ministrie Sacramentes c agayne in this world yet here must be noted by the way that Mr. G. runneth too much vpoÌ„ and wresteth too far these wordes priuate men when we speake of the Church consisting only of priuate men Now vnto his crimination the Church hauing this coÌ„mandement aucthoritie giuen of God vnto the worldes end we before shewed him that no Prince might take it away or without great wronge hinder them from the performance hereof yea that the seruantes of God ought not to be staied from doing the coÌ„mandements of God vpon anie restrainte or persecution of any mortall man whosoeuer For this we alleadged the examples and practize of the Apostles who then had bene guiltie of the same disobedience rebellion if Princes in this busines had bene to be stayed for or their restrainte had bene a sufficent let yea that persecution and the crosse of Christ were vtterly abolished if the Church and faithfull were not to proceede in their dueties vntill Princes giue leaue We shewed also that the obedience and practize of Gods will was no disobedience or preiâ—dize to the Prince That we attempted nothing beyonde our calling neither transgressed in our calling We medled not with the reformation of anie publick abuse either in the common wealth or in their Church otherwise then by prayers vnto God and godly exhortation We only according vnto Gods commandement refrained from their idolatrie and other publicke euils and assembled together in all holy and peaceable maner to worship the Lord our God and to ioyne our selues together in the faith vnto mutual duties This we shewed to be the duetie of euerie priuate man that would be saued to leaue the false Church and to seeke the true Church And being thus assembled ioyned in the faith we shewed it to be their dutie together to seeke that ministrie and gouernment which Christ hath left vnto his Church and for the Church to erect the same VNto the Apostles proceeding without the licence of Princes he maketh a double answere One in respect of the persons of the Apostles that they were furnished with a special coÌ„mission and authoritie from CHRIST himself to set vp his kingdome which commission and power the Pastors and Teachers successiuely receiued deliuered ouer to others so that priuate men may not haue this power The other in respect of those Princes in the Apostles tyme which were all heathen and therfore it had bene bootlesse to sue to them But where there is a christian Prince that holdeth the fundamentall poynctes of the christian faith though otherwise this christian Prince doe erre in some matters of doctrine or touching the rules of discipline euerie godly priuate man is to keepe a good conscience not breaking the vnitie and peace of the Church But not to take publicke authoritie to reforme THese instances of the persons of the Apostles and Princes as they are litle to the purpose so doe they him as litle good If the commandement of God were sufficient warrant to the Apostles to doe their worke though al the Princes of the world resisted then must the commandement of the same God be of the same effect to all other instrumentes whom it pleaseth the Lorde to vse in their callings to his seruice also though all the Princes in the world should withstand and forbid the same For neither dignitie of the persons that are vsed make the commandement of God of more authoritie or necessitie to be donne neither yet the greatnes or the goodnes of the persons that withstand this commandement of God make yt of lesse authoritie or necessitie Onlie let the seruantes of God be sure to haue the commaundement and calling of their God for that they doe and then they neede not feare the Powers that are placed of of God for the praise and not for the punishment of the good Our question then is not whether priuate men may doe that which is not their dutie to which they haue no commanndement as this accuser surmizeth to bring vs into danger and hatred But whether they may not doe that which God commanndeth them within the limites of their caling As to forâ—ake idolatrie and the false Church to seke the true worship of God in the true Church though all the Princes of the world whether belieuers or infidels should forbid the same And this we affirme to be the duetie of euerie perticular person whosoeuer forbid We say not now that priuate men may reforme the false Church abolish publick idolatrie or depose a false ministrie that the Kinge setteth vpp This were to breake the boundess of their calling to intrude vpon the Princes office and great cause had they then to feare for he beareth not the sworde in vayne Againe our question is not whether it is the office and dutie of Princes to see abuses reformed both in the Church and common Wealth which we thinck no man to be so ignorant or barbarous to denie except the Anabaptistes But vvhether the Church ought not now amongst themselues freely to practize CHRISTS Testament either in erecting his officers and ordinances or in reforming or correcting anie fault or abuse that ariseth amongst them vvithout staying for the Princes licence yea though the Prince should vpon the paynes of death forbid This we affirme to be the dutie of euerie perticular Congregation CHRIST hauing therfore giuen vnto each and all of them his sacred power and aucthoritie to binde and to loose in earth and to doe all thinges whatsoeuer he hath commaunded them vvith promise to be with them vnto the end of the world He hath giuen them the
they fetched this geare from the POPES Portesse Againe where haue they learned to pray for their fore-Fathers offences if not of the POPE Where haue they learned to pray for all that erre for all that trauaile by land or water for all that are sicke in captiuitie tribulation c when there is a sinne for which we are forbidden to praye when there are many most vngodly and wicked persons going about and suffring for much mischief thus traueyling emprisoned c Pray they not for Gods open enemies for the breach of all Gods lawes for the ouerthrowe of all maiestracie publique peace order and for the destruction both of the Church coÌ„mon wealth therby Also where learned they to pray against lightning tempest plague famine battle c when they haue no present neede or haue no present feare or danger therof Is not this to trifle to abuse Gods name Can this prayer be of faith to praye against lightning in the middest of Wynter c Is not this to forbid God to vse his owne Creatures to his owne will and glorie Yea to forbid him to restraine his Creatures or to punish his enemies by dearth plague warre Finally where learned they to praye against sodeyne death that God should not call anie of this land yea of the whole world sodeynly Is not this to appointe God when and howe to call Hath not God reserued these secret thinges in his owne hande only forbidden men to be curious or inquisitiue after them and commanded them continually to watch be readie for in an howre that we thincke not will our Master come as a theife in the night c These are the publique prayers doctrines worship and administration of the Church of England which it not only tollerateth but with an high hand commaundeth maintayneth enforceth vpon all men Of all these execrable wares standeth Mr. GIFFARD a marchantman retayling them to the miserale people being with none more or so much offended as with those who refuse and speake against this tromperie vvhom how he rewardeth or refuteth let this his blasphemous popish booke shewe What defence he hath made for this worship and ministration Let the readers by this time iudge and howe smoothly he hath passed by and coulored yea swallowed vp all these abhominations transferring all the blame and reproach vpon the poore seruants of CHRIST that condemne this trash and admonish him Euill signes ether of a true Minister or true christian None speaking by the spirit of God iustifieth error or blasphemeth the truth at any time How far he hath sought to iustifie these antichristian deuises popish enormities and blasphemed vs for speaking the truth Let his booke shewe Yet bringeth he against vs a certaine Secte in their Church which condemne certayne thinges as corruptions such as neede reformation and therfore would know how we could abandon al th'assemblies for this Booke seing manie disalowe manie thinges therin TO this he saith we make a double answeare First that vsing a part they doe homage to the whole Then that the best part of this Booke is an abhomination to the Lorde c. This dubblenes is of your owne heart who dissembling with God and your owne conscience to auoyde opeÌ„ shame care not what wrong you doe others or what iudgments you heape vpon your self against the daye of wrath Our answeare was but one and this That you knewe neuer a Minister that vseth not the Booke that standeth not vnder this Idoll Or that had throwne it out by the power of Gods worde or with-drawen the people from yt with al their preaching these 29. yeares But that they all administer by yt ioyne their gospell to yt minister to that people that vse yt c. That the conningest of you that vse the best and leaue the rest connot make that best part you vse other then a piece of swynes-flesh an abhomination to the Lorde And that the perswation of your consciences could neither iustifie your worship cleare your selues or satisfie others Especially when we see your consciences to tollerate to submit vnto the whole to vse part in respect of your homage and to refuse part for shame of the worlde This you were ashamed to inserte because you were not able to answeare Therfore in all this they but counterfeite and you cauil What folly can you finde in this saying That in vsing part they doe homage for the whole Stand not all your Ministers bownd to this Booke sworne in their canonicall obedience to administer according to the order prescribed therin and not to preach against anie thing by publique authoritie established Stand not the Church-wardens and Sidemâ— bownde to present the defaults And the Arch-Deacon and Commissarie to censure the same How then seing all your Ministers stand in this subiection vnto yt would you haue vs thincke that the part they vse is not in respect of their homage to the whole Or howe woulde you haue vs thincke that they condemne anie part therof when they speake not against yt and cast yt not out by the power of the worde nether with-drawe themselues nor the people from yt but ioyne in prayers sacramentes with them that vse yt Is this to condemne yt or to condemne theÌ„selues rather in the things they do CaÌ„ you with your fleshly reason put this away Might they not by your reason stand sworne to y e Masse-Booke ioyne to such idolatrous priestes people as vse yt yet if in their owne conscience or secretly they dislike some faultes therof be as cleare as these Ministers you speake of are of the corruptions they condemne There are some truthes some good things in the Masse-Booke also You vse no good reason to persuade vs by your Schismes and diuisions in your Church vnto your Church We know that Christ is not diuided and y t there is but one Spirit one Baptisme CHRIST is not yea nay yea in one place naye in an other Though christiaÌ„s may through y e ignoraÌ„ce darcknes that is in them dissent in some things yet ar they to walke by one rule and not to teach diuers doctrines Who so teach otherwise or causeth anie dissentioÌ„ or offences besides the doctrine with we haue learned is to be auoyded to be cast out If either of these factions you speake of had bene of CHRIST they would yeâ— this haue proceded according to the rule of CHRIST against the offenders and not haue remayned in this contention diuision TO your next vehement exclamation of frensie In that we terme the best part of your Portesse but a piece of swynes-fleshe c wherin you saye we strike at God and blaspheame that which is most holy because therin are sondrie portions of Scripture As the Lordes prayer the tenne commandements the articles of your faith c. We beseech you when you shall be a litle come to your self are not all these with your Pistâ—es and Gospells in the Masse-Booke
of Gods promises the greatnes of Gods mercie that remembreth his Couenant in his greatest indignation wrath as also the smale beginnings and daylie growth and proceadings of our sanctification in this life As though we euer doubt or denied that the Lord our God his couenant was made established and preserued vnto vs in his CHRIST only without any worckes or merite in vs present or to come to deserue or to retaine his fauour the least minute Alas our miserable forlorne estate even from our Mothers wombe before we knowe the Lorde yea our contynual transgressions defections euer since we knewe the Lorde wheÌ„ we behold our liues in that sparckling glasse of his lawe do shew vs that we are not saued be worckes but by the free grace mercie of God through faith in CHRIST and that not of our selues but by the gift of God whose worcke we are created in CHRIST IESVS vnto good worckes which God hath fore-ordayned y t we should walke in them But now whilest we acknowledge the whole worcke of our saluation from the beginninge to the end to be of God and not of our selues to procede from to be established vpon his free grace mere mercy and loue and not from or vpoÌ„ any goodnes in vs fore-seene or subsequent Yet make we not therby the grace of God and his holy spirit which he hath giueÌ„ to al his elect to be idle vayne or fruictlesse in any of them but to regenerate chaunge enlighten and sanctifie them to bring all their affections into and to keepe them in the loue obedience of the truth By the profession of which truth they are knowen receiued as members of the visible Church made partakers of the commune comfortes couenant of the Saincts From which profession when they fall away and will not be reduced by the voyce of the Church or renued by repentaÌ„ce but remaine obstinate hardned in their sinnes then are they by the commandement power of CHRIST to be cut off as withered branches to be cast out from the fellowship of the saincts and all interest in CHRIST to be deliuered vnto Sathan c. The same rules faith saluation iudgments we haue aboue shewed to belong vnto al and vnto euerie one vnto al as vnto one being founde in the same faith or in the same transgressions Now then whilest the whole Congregation or anie member therof shall remaine hardened in sinne deniâ—ng to obey Christes voyce refusing to repent who can say that this Church or man in this estate can by vs which iudge see but according to the rules of the worde be affirmed held the true Church of Christ within the outward Couenant when Christ himself commandeth vs to deliuer them vp to Sathan in his name to haue no fellowship with them This caÌ„not be doÌ„ne of vs vnto any whom we may affirme within the outward couenant God his secret electioÌ„ councels wherin he hath determined from before al worlds who shalbe saued how far the faithful shalbe tryed fal and when he wil raise them againe beloÌ„ge not vnto vs to iudge of Onley this is most sure they y t thus fal away are hardened are not of vs to be held esteemed within the outwarde CovenaÌ„t or receiued vntil they as publickly repeÌ„t How theÌ„ can this wicked sclaÌ„deâ—er drawe this gracelesse collection damnable coÌ„clusioÌ„ from this holie doctrine That where obstinacie is ioyned vnto publick sinne there the outward Covenant is brokeÌ„ no communioÌ„ to be held vntil repentance be made Therfore we holde that the stablenes of Gods CouenaÌ„t with his Church depeÌ„deth vpon the worcked of meÌ„ Because we say that God sanctifieth al that he saueth Therefore we hold salvation by workes Because we hold that faith which is without fruictes to be deade worthles Therefore we hold salvatioÌ„ by workes Because God requireth obedieÌ„ce of al his seruants that enter into or remaine in his house and commandeth them to haue no â—ellowship with anie loÌ„ger then they coÌ„tynue in the same fayth obedieÌ„ce Therfore we make the stablenes of Godes CovenaÌ„t to depeÌ„de vpon our workes yea vpon the workes of others whom we must iudge What heretick or peruerted spirit could more highlie abuse deface the holy doctrines of Christ Is Mr. Giffard a teacher of the Church of England and cannot yet put difference betwixt the worcke of our salvatioÌ„ by Christ for vs the worke of Gods holy spirit the fruicts of Gods grace in vs That cannot put difference betwixt obedience mercie but that he wil make y e worck of Gods grace to abrogate Gods grace That cannot discerne betwixt the secret electioÌ„ of God Christes visible Church betwixt the temporarie iudgments of Christes Church according to the rule of Gods word and the final doome of God in his determinate councel Thus not knowing what either Gods Covenant Christes Church the communion or excommunioÌ„ therof meaneth this impious man vpoÌ„ these dotages seeketh to convince vs of his surmized heresies because we blame forsake these Babilonish confuse assemblies where al sortes of prophane and wicked are gathered together without faith or order bownde sed and suffred together in al impietie mischief and licentiousnes without censure or controlement vnto whome he for the wage of Balaam is powred forth and most sacrilegiously selleth them his pretended Sacraments for their two pennie shot or offring HE laboureth to defend this sacriledge confusion by th' examples of other Churches vnder the Lawe vnder the Gospel He beginneth with the estate of the Church vnder Moses where the rebellious Israelites whose carkases fel in the wildernes of whom the Lorde sware that they should not see his rest yet were not cast out of th' assemblie nor separated so longe as they liued nor their seed reiected So that he still beare in minde that he but beggeth the question so ofte as he compareth these confuse prophane assemblies that were neuer rightly gathered vnto nor established in the faith vnto true Churches vnto this place we answeare That he moste ignorantlie boldlie affirmeth an vntruth We reade Exod. 33. after the Israelites had made their Calf and committed idolatrie that Moses both did execution vpon the chief Idolators and with-drewe his tent and separated from the rest vntil they were reconciled vnto the Lorde Furder we reade that vpon publick notorious transgressions the Lorde executed publick iudgments sondrie tymes wherby the chief were taken away the rest brought to repentance Numb 12. 14. 39. and 25. and 21. 6. 7. We reade of separation from those of Corathes conspiracie c Numb 16. 21. 24. 26. verses We reade also Numb 12. that Miriam was separated out of the hoste vntill she was healed Likewise we reade of sondrie perticular iudgments for perticular transgressions As for breaking the Sabaoth for blaspheming c Num. 15. Whereby his impudencie is convinced But nowe if it were graunted him then which nothing
Ministers And being no true or lawfull Ministers their ministration is then vnlawfull accursed abhominable to God men These then being allowed Ministers and their ministration publiquely by lawe approued and receiued in the Church of England we may conclude the publicke ministrie and ministration of the Church of England to be vnlawfull accursed and abhominable thus far foorth notwithstanding Mr. Giffardes payre of distinctions Otherwise if he laboured to prooue the ministerie of the Gospell to be in yt self alwaies entire holie and blessed notwithstanding the infirmities faultes of meÌ„ this all men will graunte and needed not his learned distinctions to prooue the same But what is this to prooue the ministrie of these dumbe Pastors Or the other ministrie of the Church of England to be that ministerie of the Gospell which we for all the reasons aboue alleadged confidently denie HIs second reason Such as haue the caling ordination of the Church haue the ministrie of CHRIST For it is giuen to the Church to cal ordaine Ministers In the next sectioÌ„ his Minor followeth In EnglaÌ„d the Ministers haue their caling ordination by the Church of GOD Therfore c. To the Maior he addeth a clause that yt may be a true caling notwithstanding some faultes of ignoraÌ„ce or otherwise So he vnderstand this otherwise to be of negligence and not of anie wilful obstinate transgressioÌ„s Or not any of those pereÌ„ptorie faultes excepted by the holy Ghost which disable the elect disanul the electioÌ„ then we thus far assent But wheÌ„ we reason of the caling of the ministri of England we speake not of a true caling though vnperfect with some faultes of ignoraÌ„ce or negligence but of a false counterfeit antichrâ—stiaÌ„ caling which we haue proued affirme theirs to be The caling of the Church ought alwaies to be yt caling of Christ prescribed in his Testament which theirs is not To his Minor now first we denie the Churche of England to be the true established Churche of Christ. He prooueth it thus That people vvhich hath forsaken heresies and false vvorship and imbraced the doctrine of the Gospell hath in it the true Church vvhich hath the power Wee obserue much subtiltie and feare in this position For whereas he ought to haue affirmed Are the true Church and haue the power he fearefullie subtilly saith hath in it the true Church which hath the power not daring to iustifie or ioyne issue of their outward estate but leauing himself a starting hole to flee to such secret ones as God may call and haue amongst them We doubt not but God hath in Turckye or Persia yea in the Church of ROME manie deare elect but should we therfore say that Turcky Persia Rome are the true Church We affirme also will approue against al the false Prophets of the world that in this land the Lord hath such a people that haue thus forsaken heresies false worship embraced the Gospell and haue this power of CHRIST But we denie this their Church to consist of this people to haue forsakeÌ„ heresies false worship to haue truly embraced the Gospel or to haue this power of CHRIST to elect ordaine excoÌ„municate or to redresse anie enormitie but are dryuen to these antichristian Bishopps for al these Who receiue not power of the Church but vsurpe and exercise absolute power ouer the Church yea the whole power of the Church as hath bene shewed Which is vnlawfull either for the Church to giue or for any true christian to receiue or execute Neither can th'aucthoritie of anie mortall men or Parlament make that lawfull which God in his worde condemneth and forbiddeth And so euen by this his owne allegation all this ministrie made by standing vnder this vsurped inordinate antichristian power of the Bishopps are also vnlawfull To which if we add the vnlawfulnes of the office these Ministers are called vnto and execute the vnlawfulnes of their calling in the whole maner therof vnto by and in no flocke certaine the vnlawfulnes of the ordayners as also of the ordayned their open ambition greedines and insufficientcy their false maner of probation and ordination with all the vngodly and execrable ceremonies vowes othes subscriptions vsed to the same none can mistake this caling and ordination of the Ministers of ENGLAND for that true holie election and ordination of the Church of CHRIST without which true caling there can be no true Minister No true Church may vse or can iustifie anie such false caling as theirs And so still we must leaue Mr. GIF to proue the office caling of his ministrie THis Clarke procedeth to an other reason That ministrie is of God which is to bring men to the faith and to build vp the bodie of CHRIST The ministrie of England is to none other end Therfore c. The Minor he proueth Because the whole drift scope and burden laide vpon them is to feede vvith vvholesome doctrine to guide in the waies of godlines the sheepe of CHRIST walking before them in godlie conuersation Mr. G. said erewhile that the Ministers of England were no intruders But sure vt seemeth they are verie nimble leapers which skippe ouer the hatch into the house wil not stay vntil the Master of the house cal vntil the Porter of the house open but without any lawfull calling or entrance wil needes thrust themselues Ministers vpon the Lord and his Church whether he and they wil or no. Yea Mr. Giff. wil proue himself these his presumptuous companions true Ministers without this caling or entrance by the endes of their administration although the Lorde of the house neuer caled them to be builders or coÌ„mitted vnto them the worcke and ministrie of his house The deceiptfulnes and disorder of these kinde of argumeâ—ts wee haue aboue shewed and with the same general answeare might dismisse this Saue that by the way wee must giue him to vnderstand That his Assumption is a shamelesse presumption They build not vpon but destroye the house of God the bodie of Christ. This their worcke the present estate of their Church witnesseth to their face and sheweth what maner of worckmen they are where we finde not one pinne nayle or hooke in due order and proportion according to the true paterne They feed not the Lordes sheepe but the Lordes goates and that not with wholesome foode with sincere milke that they might growe and be encreased therby as the generall sinne prophannes and ignorance of al estates both Priestes and people declare Neither guide they in the way of godlines but in the wayes of destruction and calamitie They haue al declined bene made together vnprofitable And the way of peace they haue not knowen And as for the conuersatioÌ„ of these Priestes it may wel be an example to the flock in al idolatry superstition impiety vnfaithfulnes apostasie halting and dissembling with God and man worldlines coueteousnes deceipt and what not So that the
saying of the Prophet is come about That there are like people like Priest Al this Mr. G. in his festered coÌ„science knewe before and that his shamelesse assumption would not passe with his adversarie with whom he had to doe and therfore he leaueth the proof of this assumption as also of his office and entraÌ„ce and yet againe assayeth by a newe argument of the effectes together with that which is properly adioyned to the Ministrie of CHRIST to proue his Ministerie THat ministerie with the'xecution wherof there is ioyned the effectual grace power blessing and operation of the holy Ghost to the true conuertion of mens soules is not a ministerie of the Diuel nor of Antâ—christ nor cometh not in the life and power of the Beaste but is indeed the true Ministerie of CHRIST But such grace power blessing operation is founde in the Ministerie of England Therfore First here stil must be obserued a begging and assuming of a true Ministrie which as yet is not proued Neither doth this reason proue a Ministrie so much as shew the infallible effectes of true doctrine true preaching whether it be by Ministers or by other faithful which haue the gift of prophecie knowledge interpretation vtterance c. For far from the truth is it to thincke that only Ministers beget and winne to the faith as some most shamelsse Bishops and sencelesse Priestes of this age haue published and mainetaine Then might they aswel with the Papistes permit the worde of God only vnto Priestes yea suffer none but Priestes to speake of the worde or holie doctrines if this vse and end of the worde were taken away if the blessing and power of God should not goe with his holy word and truth in the mouth of all his seruants both to cal vnto the faith an to super-edifie in the faith Ells should al dueties in families all mutual exhortations admonitions conferences cease But hauing the commandement of God to al these the euidence and testimonie of the blessed and comfortable effects following the faithful testimonies of al Christes Disciples in all ages and contynual experience hereof amongst out selues dayly we dare affirme that others besides Ministers may conuert soules and begeate faith So then this argument of the effectes proueth not so much a true ministry as it doth proue true doctrine For no false doctrine can beget true faith though manie which be no Ministers may beget true faith Mr. Giff. theÌ„ reasoneth verie corruptly deceiptfully in attributing the conuertion of soules as proper peculiar to the ministrie which is not so and in bringing these effectes to proue a true ministrie which only are to proue true doctrine And nowe to Mr. Gif his assumption Wee denie that any false ministrie hath promise of blessinge or is sent of God for the conuertion of soules but on the contrarie we finde it accursed and sent of God for the seducing of the reprobate The ministrie then of the Church of EnglaÌ„d being proued false in Office Entrance and Administration can haue no such promise or blessing of God as Mr. Giff. assumeth If it be demaunded then whether al vnder this ministrie be damned I say it is a newe question and kept secret to the Lorde who onlie knoweth who be his when how to call them It becometh not vs to giue anie such finall iudgment of matters not knowen vnto vs Yet this wee may be warrant of the whole scripture saie That the waies of the false Churche and ministrie are the waies of death and haue no promise of saluation But for the persons wee iudge charitablie euen so longe and so far as wee may measuring them by our selues as wee sometymes were hoping and not doubting but God hath manie thousandes deare elect there yea euen in the Popish Churches whom he in his due tyme by his appointed meanes wil cal If Mr. Giff. here insist say that many of those thousandes are couerted by their ministrie Therfore their ministrie is not in the power of ANTICHRIST or of the Diuel but of God hauing that sure seale that worcke of the holie Ghost We haue aboue answered that this rather approueth the doctrine then the ministrie and is to be attributed to the worde of God rather then to the person of man Furder that the false ministrie hath no promise of blessing Yet doe wee not herebie restraine the infinite power of God from sauinge or calinge his elect euen by the doctrine of the false Churche which though it be so throughly leauened corrupted peruerted abused yet can the Lorde bring the truth of his lawe and gospel which is there read and after their maner preached in such sorte â—o the eares consâ—ieÌ„ces of his chosen as it shal both shew them their degenerate estate â—ow guiltie they are of the breache of Gods lawe howe lyable to his wrath and also shew them the true meanes of their restoring redemption reconciliation saluation Yet this doth neither iustifie the false Minister of his ministration no more then when a young Boye dumbe Minister or vnbelieuing prophane person reading the holie scriptures or some other booke of true doctrine some of the hearers God so opening their vnderstaÌ„ding should therby be brought to the ackowledging and faith of Christ the feare loue of God c. This Boy reading Priest prophane person by reading is proued a true Minister a true preacher a true christian Or these that are thus wonne comforted c to seeke no other Minister or meanes of their saluation then thys reading by these persons Let the doctrine then in that poyncte wherby men are thus begotten to these beginninges of faith or to anie encrease therof be alwaies true and sounde so far foorth the maner tyme of apprehending be the worke and power of God the meanes instrumeÌ„tes of conuaying or bringing variable at the wil appoynctment of God Yet are we only to sâ—eke vse and rest in those meanes which the Lord hath ordayned for our instruction and leading foorth in the wil and wayes of God which meanes only haue warrant promise of blessing vnto vs howsoeuer the Lord by his infinite power and worcking can and no doubt doth saue some in Turckey amongst the heathen in the false Church amongst the false worshippers by what meanes yt pleaseth him yet may not we herevpon either resorte vnto or remaine in these forbidden places in hope of these effectes because God if such be his will can saue vs here or if it be not his will to saue vs theÌ„ no true Church of ministry caÌ„ auaile vs. This were most highly and dangerously to tempt God a reprobate kinde of reasoning God his wil vnto vs is that we alwaies obey and rest in his reueiled wil and not to presume vpon his infinite will and power which he keepeth secret vnto himself This caused the holy Martyres and faithfull at all tymes and vs the Lordes most vnworthy witnesses at