Linguistic DNA - Concept Modelling Demonstrator

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
lord_n	word_n	zeal_n	zealous_a	181	3	9.3374	4	false

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A12701	An ansvvere to Master Iohn De Albines, notable discourse against heresies (as his frendes call his booke) compiled by Thomas Spark pastor of Blechley in the county of Buck	Sparke, Thomas, 1548-1616.; Albin de Valsergues, Jean d', d. 1566. Marques de la vraye église catholique. English.	1591 (1591)	STC 23019; ESTC S117703	494,957	544

to God the consciences of his superiours The XVI Chapter NOT we but your Romish Iesuites and seminary Priests are the sowers of that seede of sedition that you speake of neither is it we but they and such like of your side which when they haue so done alleadge onely for their defence their ardent and Apostolique zeale and affection to winne soules This in England and Ireland these late yeares hath notoriously and very often beene found true in these and questionlesse other kingdomes where the Gospell is preached and established haue and doe finde the like For they go vp and downe secretly vnder the pretence of reconciling men and women into the bosom of their mother Church to alienate their heartes from their naturall soueraigne to the obedience of a forraine potentate and so prepare them against the time when opportunity shal best serue to procure the death or deposition of their lawfull Prince And that thus without anie offence to God they maie doe they perswade themselues by vertue of the Popes bull in that therein they bee absolued from their alleageance vnto their home supreme magistrate and are thereby also taught that in furthering either his depriuation or death they shal doe honourable acceptable and meritorious seruice to the mother church of Rome These thinges I say haue of late yeares too too often here in England in open places of iudgement beene manifestly proued against your Iesuites and Popish Priestes and therefore as traitours a number of them and their followers haue beene most worthely executed Which thinges being so euident as they are great shame is it that yet you should not blush to charge vs with these thinges whereof yours are most famously guilty and whereof truely you cannot conuict any of ours You tell vs wee should haue praied to the Lorde of the haruest to thrust forth more labourers thereinto as Christ hath commanded vs Math. 9. and not as you quote it Math. 15. and that in the meane time we should haue reformed our selues and not haue taken vpon vs without some expresse commaundement from God a matter of such importance as the reformation of your estate is According to this counsell of Christ wee haue praied to the Lorde of the haruest and he in his mercy towardes his Church hath heard our prayers and wee hope will euery day more and more to the full ouerthrowe of yours and perfect consummation of ours But that in the meane time they whose eies God hath opened to see the Babylonish confusion of yours should there haue staied as you would haue had them vntill they had a further commission from God then already they had for so you must needes meane by that further commission or expresse commaundement that you would haue had them first to haue had you can neuer proue For they whose ministrie it pleased God to vse to detect your Antichristian doings according to his worde 2. Thessal 2. in these later daies were such as namely Wickliffe Iohn Hus and Luther that had not onely the ordinary calling of those times to feede Gods people as pastours and doctours but also they were such as God had blessed with rare and extraordinary giftes of knowledge and zeale and therefore if they seeing the abhominations of your Synagogue and the grosse blindenesse and errours that you still laboured to holde Gods people in had contented themselues onely with praying vnto God for the redresse therof with reforming of theÌ„selues had not saied their hands shoulders to the work vsing the talents that God had bestowed vpon them to his best aduantage without a further new and expresse commaundement then they had alreadie receiued in the writen word should not they with the vnprofitable seruant Math. 25. haue had their wages They tooke not in hand to doe as they did as you would make your Reader beleeue onely vnder the colour of zeale without expresse warrant from God their Lorde and master For beside their zeale and knowledge by their callinges in that they were famous doctours and pastours in their times they were bound by Gods expresse worde Esay 58.1 Ezech. 33.6 7. and in sundrie other places to doe as they did But to bring vs and our ministers into hatred in this Chapter you labour to perswade your reader that as of burning zeale they haue in many places dispossessed your Bishops and Priestes of their places so as Gods Lieutenants and as men voide of all partiality for thus tauntingly it pleaseth you to write they wil proceede against ciuill magistrates both higher and lower in like maner because many of them haue beene and be as you say as ill liuers and rather worse then your Popish Prelates haue beene Which to bee an vnlawfull thing and the cause of all confusion and horrible disorder you bestowe a great deale of needelesse paines to proue for it is a thing that wee teach and vrge in earnest and you your practise to the contrary beeing so vsuall as it is considered onely in iest and for a fashion teach it But indeede this is the way which the malicious and ancient enemies of Gods Church haue alwaies vsed to disgrace the true seruants of God by with the Kings and Princes of the world and therefore you doe well in that you are nothing behinde them in malice enmity against Gods people in that you studie also to be like them in this Wee reade you know after the returne of Gods people out of their captiuitie in Babylon when they beganne once to build and to go forward either with Gods house in Hierusalem or the walles of that City alwaies this was one of the practises of their enemies to labour their discredit to the hinderance of their worke to accuse them to the Persian Kings to intende therein sedition and rebellion against them Ezr. 4. Nehem. 6. And it appeares Iohn 19. it was the principallest meanes whereby the high Priest and the Iewes prouoked Pilate to giue sentence against our Sauiour that they tolde him that he was not Caesars frend if he deliuered him thereby insinuating though in trueth hee had both payed tribute vnto Caesar and had taught others both by example and word publickly to yeelde vnto Caesar whatsoeuer was due vnto him Math. 16. 22. and they of all other did most repine at Caesars iurisdiction ouer them and their cuntrey that hee was one whose doings and doctrine tended to the supplaÌ„ting of Caesar In like maner Act. 17. 24. wee finde it one of the vsuall meanes that the vnbeleeuing Iewes and other lewde people then when none in their hearts regarded Caesar and his authoritie lesse vsed to discredit the Apostles and their doctrine to accuse them to be seditious and such as cared not for Caesars decrees Neither did this practise die when the common weale of the Iewes ceased for it appeares in Euseb lib. 5. cap. 1. and in Tertullians Apology in sundry places that there was nothing more common in the primatiue Church

is such a thing for the vvhich in all the scripture they can finde neyther precept promisse nor example to leade them to vse it but to teach them to abhor it there they shall or at least may learne that inuocation is a speciall diuine poynt of seruice of such spirituall and high nature as that God challengeth it onely to himselfe that therefore neuer any holy man mentioned in the scriptures durst euer vse it to any other Indeede a man shall easily finde that ere Epiphanius time Sathan had taught the heretiques called Caians to worship Angels with inuocation of them and that likewise ere his time in Africke there were that offred to Mary the virgin and that in inuocating her and other saints were verie busy pretended great piety deuotion but withal he shal finde that he bitterly condemnes al that did so for heretiques vnder the name either of Caians Antidicomarianites oâ— Collyridians Heres 38 78. c. that in as bitter manner as may be vsing the same speeches reasons against them that we doe now vsually in these daies against these Now where they would shift of the absurdity blasphemy of robbing God his sonne Christ of their due honour herein in saying first that their praying to the souls of Saints departed may aswel staÌ„d with their honour as the requiring of our brethren aliue to pray for vs then in affirming that they begge nothing at their hands but stil they conclude their praiers vnto them with this clause by the merites of our Lord Iesus Christ they cannot so escape or excuse themselues For neither doe they only desire the Saints departed to pray to God for them as we doe our brethren here whiles they liue neither do they alwaies remember so to conclude their praiers vnto them For in their office which they call the seruice of the blessed Marie there bee three prayers made vnto her wherein no lesse then eternall life is begged directly at her hands yet there this clause is quite forgotteÌ„ The like may be obserued in many other praiers of theirs to them as for example in their praier to S. Osmund confessor in one to S. Anne and in an other to S. Katherin And if it were so that they so shut vp al their praiers vnto them what were that else then to make Christ mediator betwixt vs them For can we in any words more plainly acknowledge Christs effectual mediation betwixt vs and his father then by requiring all things that wee begge of his father per dominnm nostrum Iesum Christum by our Lorde Iesus Christ Then what is this else but for their pleasures to put him from his old office of being mediator betwixt God and man to make him nowe mediatour betwixt men and wemen aliue and the souls of other men wemen dead They say in their maner of praying they neuer cause the Saints any more to incroch of his office of mediation then wee doe when wee desire one another being aliue to pray to god for vs what say they then to that prayer of theirs in the name of Thomas Becket Tu per Thomae sanguineÌ„ queÌ„ pro te effudit fac nos Christe scandere quÃ² Thomas ascendit That is O thou Christ by the bloode of Thomas which for thee hee shed make vs ascend thither whither Thomas is gone They knowe this is or was in their portuisse But if this be not plaine inough both to make it appeare that they pray otherwise to the Saints departed then we doe to theÌ„ aliue that in their praying to theÌ„ most blasphemously contrary to all holy ancient fathers iudgement consent of al Christian nations prescriptioÌ„ of al ages and the holy scriptures themselues marke Christian Reader these further presidents In the masse of the annuntiation they sing thus to Mary Salue virgo virginum mediatrix hominum all haile virgin of virgins the mediatrix of men and in the masse of the conception thus Tu spes certamiserorum verÃ¨ mater orphanorum tu lenamen oppressorum medicamen infirmorum omnibus es omnia That is speaking to the same Mary Thou art the certaine hope of the miserable truely the mother of orphans the helpe of the oppressed the medicine for the sicke to all thou art all things Infinite such examples there be whereby it is most cleare that nothing can bee begged of God himselfe which they beg not of the saints that no title caÌ„ be giueÌ„ to god but they haue giueÌ„ it to one Saint or other Besids al this we must coÌ„sider that the children of God being aliue are commanded to pray one for another that by speech letter or messenger they know how to acquaint one another with their minde whereas in praying to their soules after their death we haue neither commaÌ„demeÌ„t so to doe neither can we indeede persuade our selues that whatsoeuer we say vnto theÌ„ they heare and see our minds vnles we thinke now after once they be in heauen they are inuested in the very nature of God himselfe so are become aswell as he searchers scers of the harts raines which once to imagine because it is extreame blasphemy therefore their is infinite difference euen for these reasons betwixt desiring a Christian brother aliue to pray for vs the desiring of his soule departed but once to doe so much for vs. Againe if that were but all they doe in praying to the Saints departed then howsoeuer because of our frailty that sticketh by vs whiles we liue it were necessary one of vs to require that at the hands of another that so the better vve may performe the duety one to another yet their is not the like reason why we should so cal vpon them that are departed though they could heare vs for they being where they haue laide aside all frailty and forgetfulnesse of their dueties it being supposed to be their dueties to pray for their brethren sisters in Christ aliue we may be sure they will do it without our remeÌ„bring of them thus But now no more of these two points here for ca. thirty seuen I haue spokeÌ„ againe somewhat largely thereof where I haue shewed both when and how these corruptions came in and who resisted them also Wherefore to goe on with coÌ„futation of the obiectioÌ„ which I haue vndertaken to answere concerning that point when and by vvhom the Romish religion came in and vvho spyed it and confuted it besides the pointes already touched amongst many other wherein we differ from them these are three principall for the which I account both them their religion Antichristian their doctrine of traÌ„substantiation of images and vowed single life and yet in these they bragge of fathers consent of Christian regions and prescription of time as in the former To aunswere therefore both that demaunde concerning these pointes also and to strip them withall of that visard of antiquity and vniuersallity that herein along time

And so doeth Tertullian de resurrectione carnis Cap. 3. saying Auferantur ab haereticis quae cum aethnicis sapiunt vt de scripturis solis suas quaestiones fistant stare non possunt that is let those things be taken from heretiques which they holde with the heathen that onely by the scriptures they may determine their questions and they cannot stand And nothing was more vsuall and familier with Augustine against the heretiques of his time then to call them for the triall of the question both whither he or they were of the true Church also whither of them had the trueth to this way of triall by the scriptures And therefore de vnitate ecclesiae Nolo humanis documentis sed diuinis oraculis ecclesiam demonstrare I will not make demonstration of the Church by the writings of men but by the diuine oracles saieth he Cap 3. again there also he further addeth pressing the heretiques with whom hee had there to doe sunt libri dominici quoruÌ„ authoritati vtrique consentimus ibi quaeramus ecclesiam ibi discutiamus causaÌ„ nostraÌ„ that is there are certaine bookes of the Lord vnto the authority whereof we both consent there let vs seeke the Church there let vs discusse our cause To the like effect he writeth in the 2 Chapter of that booke and elswhere very often Vnles therfore they wil once bee contented to come to this trial of the controuersies betwixt theÌ„ vs we must needs tel theÌ„ that they are not desirous in earnest euer to haue it appeare which of vs haue the better cause but as men who know in their owne coÌ„science that their cause is bad they labour to maintaine the credit thereof as long as they can by cunning shifts delaies But yet let them assure themselues as long as they shun this trial how cuÌ„ningly colourably soeuer though simple fooles already besotted with superstition bewitched with popish enchantments vpon their bare worde stought bragges that it is nothing but the ancient catholicke faith that they teach may sometimes beleeue theÌ„ that yet withal those that haue any wisdoÌ„ at al by this means they leese quite both the credit of theÌ„selues their cause For faith being as it is not a wauering vncertaine conceyt opinioÌ„ of the thing beleeued but a most certain sure infallible perswasion of the trueth thereof how can any be assured that the doctrine that he beleeues is such as he may soundly firmely rest vpon for vndoubted trueth without euident grouÌ„d thereof out of the writeÌ„ word of the Lord in the canonical scriptures For theÌ„ce onely Peter dare warraÌ„t the sincere milke which caÌ„not deceiue the childreÌ„ of god to be fetched 1. Pet. 2 2. therefore that he would haue theÌ„ to desire as new borne babes doe milk that they may grow vp therby And as for the writings traditioÌ„s of meÌ„ beside hath not doth not experieÌ„ce daily teach that they may not nor caÌ„not chalenge the preeminence prerogatiue alwaies to be free from errour And euery one that is a ChristiaÌ„ hath learned that this prerogatiue al the writers of the canonical scripture had in the writing thereof therein not to haue erred at al. Who therfore caÌ„ be so simple vnles the Lord in his iustice hath blinded him because hee would not see the trueth shyning about him that he should receiue that for the sound catholicke faith that he heares not first froÌ„ point to point proued vnto him so to bee out of this vndoubted certaine word of God the canonical scriptures what shew or colour of proofe soeuer otherwise be made thereof And this Iohn de Albine could not but conceiue yet neuer once going about in this his discourse thus to couÌ„tenaÌ„ce his cause religioÌ„ but as one loth to be brought to this trial he laboureth most earnestly to discourage al meÌ„ froÌ„ appealing vnto it yet almost in euery leafe braggeth and boasteth that both his Church his doctrine and al are souÌ„d catholick Wherin howsoeuer he pleased himselfe in that his vaine any indiffereÌ„t maÌ„ may see he hath rather bewraied the weaknes of his owne cause theÌ„ any way whatsoeuer he haue saied otherwise impaired the credit of ours But how vainly hee hath swet euen to the tyring of himselfe his reader about this point in many chapters That by the scriptures controuersies are not in the church to be tried determined wheÌ„ I come vnto that place I shal god willing shew more fully In the meane time Iohn de Albine to turne my speech to you I hauing thus examined your answere to our demand how you come to your prelacies and offices and hauing found the weaknes and vntruethes thereof such as that your calling or coÌ„ming thereunto can claime no more credit thereby theÌ„ the calling coÌ„ming to their offices amongst the ArriaÌ„s Greekes whoÌ„ you count heretiques and scismatiques caÌ„ doe because they caÌ„ could say as much and that as truly for theirs as you haue here said for yours let vs now proceed to the examinatioÌ„ of the places of scripture in this Chapter quoted by you vrged as you thought stroÌ„gly to your purpose By the Mat. 5. Ye are the light of the world c. by christ spokeÌ„ properly to his Apostles you would seem to proue that therfore right successioÌ„ of Bishops pastors in the Apostolique truth in al ages in diuers partes of the world hath ben euer cleare shining like a light set on a table by that Eph. 4. Esa 62. with your book quoteth Sap. 61. very wisely you would infer that not oÌ„ly alwaies vntil Christs body coÌ„e to ful perfectioÌ„ there should be doctors pastors in the Church to teach the truth which is the most that by those places caÌ„ be proued but also that they and their coÌ„gregatioÌ„s haue euer ben known visible therby doubtles meaning so visible as the rest of your side doe wheÌ„ to this end they alleage these or the like places as that froÌ„ time to time in al ages meÌ„ may be able to naÌ„e theÌ„ and their places WheruÌ„to I answere that you stretch these places and the words therin further theÌ„ their natiue sence wil bear For the first of these is properly to be vnderstood of Christs Apostles onely who in respect of their ministery other graces of the spirit that should be powred bestowed vpoÌ„ theÌ„ to beutifie streÌ„gtheÌ„ their extraordinary ministery withall are there by Christ compâ—â—â—â—â— the light of the world to a lighted candle set vpon a candlesticke not put vnder a bushell lightning all in the house and to a city ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ on a hil which could not bee bid all which afterward they in the â—â—ecution of their Apostleship and holy conuersation proued to be â—â—â—tles truely and iustly giuen them This was no prophesie as yoâ— would make it that their should be vntill the second comming ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ Christ a visible and

where I rest O most beautifull amongst all women follow thou the path that thy flocke hath made before thee setting thy tabernacle or thy lodge hard by the tabernacle of thy Shepheards If wee well note and vnderstand this answere it will learne vs that that shall suffice to keepe vs from running euer astray The sense is this O thou Christian which art troubled in thy conscience not knowing because of so many heresies which way thou shalt go or how thou shalt discerne the true religion from other false doctrine take my counsaile the which is to follow step by step the flocke that went before thee If that a thousand or two thousaÌ„d sheep run ouer a plaine those that come afterward doe not they knowe wel the path that is made before them Doe not they discerne the way that the first went Yes surely although there be no Shepheard to guide them And if thou doest answere that this doeth not suffice for I doe see diuerse pathes I see the path of the Caluinistes Cant. 1. the path of the Lutherans and the path of those of the Roman Church but yet doe not I knowe which flocke I should choose To this I answere thus set thy Tabernacle by the Tabernacle of the shepheardes and of thy Pastours I meane that a Then we may not leane to yours for this can it neuer doe I would haue thee to leane to that flocke that can leade thee from age to age and from yeare to yeare vnto the crosse of Iesus Christ on the which hee was nailed at noone daies and there it is where thou oughtest to quiet thy selfe and thy conscience Then to beginne If thou doest aske the Caluinistes Where is the true faith the which as they saie doeth consist in the true preaching of the worde of the Lorde and in the administration of the Sacramentes according to the institution of Iesus Christ they will answere It is at Geneua the Lutherans will answere at Wittemberge and the Anabaptistes will answere at MonasteriuÌ„ the Vbiquitaries they wil answer at â—ubing and the Trinitaries at Petricone and so consequentlie of the rest And then pursue and aske further where it was twentie yeares agone They will saie in the saied cities but if thou come to demaund of them where it was an hundred or two hundred yeares agone if they are ashamed anie thing at all to lye they wil not answere at all for there is none of them that can denie but that Luther who began to preach his new Gospell the yeare b This is a monstrous and impudent vntruth for constantly and generally wee say and proue by the Scripture that our religioÌ„ hath plentifull warrant both in the olde newe Testament 1517 was the first beginner of all these troubles the father of al those that teach this reformed Religion Then is it farre from that place where thy frend was nailed at middaie or where hee was crucified aboue 1500. yeares agone before the newe Church was dreampt of And therefore thou maiest easilie perceaue that this flocke cannot leade thee to the place that thou doest desire and consequentlie that is not the flock that wee should followe Then let vs come vnto the Roman Church and demaund where was this flocke an hundred yeares agone They will answere thee in France Spaine England Germanie and so ouer all Christendome And of thou aske where it was 500. yeares agone c They wil say so therefore it was so they will saie In the saied places And a thousand yeares agone likewise and likewise a thousand and fiue hundred yeares agone This flocke then will not leaue thee by the waie as the others doe but it will leade thee vnto the verie time of the death and passion of d This is also most vntrue for the popish doctrine from point to point wee are able to shew when it began and how it hath growen by degrees to that which it is not in a thousand years after Christ Christ by continuance of oâ—â— doctrine and by succession of pastours which Salomon doeth call the Tabernacle of the sheepe heardes And therefore this is the place where thou must seeke thy Tabernacle and quiet thy conscience to the ende that thou bee not a lost sheepe and that thou bee not readie to turne at euerie blast of new doctrine e None such coggers as Papistes in giuing the sence of the Scriptures who make not them the rule of their practise but their practise how mutable so euer the rule to giue the sence thereof by that our new coggers of the Scriptures doe set forth to deceaue the simple sheepe The IIII. Chapter TO this fourth chapter I answere that with Salomon to finde out the true Church of God wee as well as you exhorte Christes sheepe to followe the tracte of the flocke of Christ and to feede by the tentes or Tabernacles of his sheepheardes that so they maie bee ledde on and vp to Christ himselfe But then forasmuch as wee haue learned before by that which hath beene noted in the former Chapter concerning the fashion of heretiques especiallie seeing the same confirmed in you and other heretiques and apostataes in these our daies that euerie flocke is not Christes flocke that will pretende so to bee nor they alwaies his true sheepeheardes that are so accounted wee wish euerie one that wilfullie is not disposed to suffer himselfe to bee seduced by those that falsely thus pretende to learne to bee able as Saint Iohn hath taught all true Christians in the first Epistle and fourth verse to trie the spirites whether they be of God or no which they shall and may doe in trying both the flockes and their sheepheardes by the infallible worde of Christ contained in the Canonicall Scriptures For Christes sheepe will heare and obey his voice Ioh. 10. which vndoubtedlie and sufficiently is sounded in the written worde For the Scriptures are able to make a man wise vnto saluation through the faith which is in Christ Iesus For the whole Scripture is giuen by inspiration of God and is profitable to teach to improue to correct and to instruct in righteousnesse that the man of God may be absolute being made perfit vnto all good workes 2. Tim. 3. And therefore his true sheepeheardes will feede his sheepe with the sincere milke of this worde because that is it which they must desire as new borne babes doe milke that they may growe vp thereby if so be they haue tasted how bountifull the Lord is 1. Pet. 2. And because that is it according whereunto he that speaketh must speake because it is writen if any maÌ„ speake let him talke as the words of God 1. Pe. 4. By which rule if the flockes and sheepeheardes whom wee followe bee tryed they shal bee founde the sheepe whose tracte is to bee followed and the sheepeheardes by whose tentes is safe feeding And contrarilie by this rule your flockes and sheepeheardes come to the tryall of it when you

neuer hauing proued either of these nor yet being able to doe it you should coÌ„clude that your prescription against our doctrine which you call newe at your pleasure though indeede it be most ancient witnesse the olde testament and the newe much rather ought to take place then his in his time against heretiques that then taught diuerse basphemous heresies directly against the scriptures You say our Religion hath beene vnknowen this 1500. yeares or at least if any body sought to publish it he was condemned as a false pernitious heretique But you doe but say thus you proue it not nor euer shall For it was both heard and knowen many 100. yeares before yours was hatched and if euery one were so condemned that taught it then was Christ and his Apostles so condemned For vnlesse by scriptures we can proue ours to be the same that theirs was wee aske no fauour at your hands And as long as we can doe so the more we and our predecessours haue beene condemned by you the more we knowe we haue beene blessed of God Now whereas you say in this Chapter further that Irenaeus did withstand heretiques by the traditions of the Apostles adding your glosse that is to say by doctrine not writen but deliuered from hand to hand and so receiued from age to age froÌ„ the Apostles to that time therein through the ambiguity of the word Tradition craftsly you seeke to deceiue your simple reader and indeede you giue a glosse that corrupteeh the text For let that place of Irenaeus in his third booke and second Chapter be perused and that also which followeth in the third Chapter of the same booke though either you or the Printer mistaking it send vs to the fifth Chapter where the wordes are not which you cite and most euidently it shall bee proued that though Irenaeus haue there the words by you cited yet by the traditioÌ„s of the Apostles which he speaketh of there he meaneth no doctrine nor points of doctrine as you doe vsually by that word contrary or besides that which was also taught in the word writen For the question was of God the father of our Lord Iesus Christ which ValeÌ„tinian Marcion denied against whoÌ„ he there sheweth that he fought first with the scriptures wherewith when they were vrged he saith they are turned streight into an accusation of the scriptures as though they were not right had not authority might diuersly be takeÌ„ saying further that trueth could not be found of them by those that are ignorant of traditioÌ„ For the trueth was not deliuered by them but by liuely voice that therefore Paul saied we speake wisedome amongst them that are perfect not the wisedoÌ„e of this world And this wisdome to euery one of them saieth he is that which he himselfe hath deuised Of which heretiques their wordes yours when you are called to the touchstone of the scriptures are so like vndoubtedly you haue learned to plead against the scriptures for your vnwritten traditions Now when thus he had shewed how the heretiques in his time shunned triall by the scriptures and appealed to tradition he goeth on and sheweth that when he was contented to come to the traditioÌ„ of the Apostles kept obserued in the church downe from the Apostles to those times by succession of pastours then they resisted tradition also saying that they were wiser then either those pastours or the Apostles themselues and so indeede neither by the scriptures nor yet by making demonstration vnto them that the same doctrine taught in the scripture was also deliuered by liuely voice first by the Apostles and so receiued from age to age and continued in by those pastors of whose successioÌ„ he speaketh could stop their mouthes And thus any maÌ„ of meane capacity may perceiue that in these places Irenaeus his drift only is to shew the heretiques that the doctrine which he taught concerning God the father of our Lord Iesus Christ first was warranted by the Apostles writings and then also taught by them by liuely voice and so deliuered and continued from hand to hand amongst the faithfull pastours succeeding one another euen vnto that time And that he calleth this the tradition of the Apostles and not as you falsly expound him doctrine vnwriten beside or contrary to that which is writen as the Popish traditions you striue for bee if you had beene disposed you might haue learned in the 1. Chapter of the same booke where he saieth That which first they preached after by the wil of god tradiderunt nobis they deliuered vs in writing to be the foundation and piller of our faith And indeede it is an vsuall thing with the fathers of the primitiue Church often by the tradition of the Apostles to vnderstand the very same doctrine which is conteined in their writings Herein therefore so likewise in all other points in controuersy betwixt vs it is a coÌ„mon tricke with you papists to vrge the fathers wordes quite contrary to their true meaning But because you first and namely bring in Irenaeus for your vnwriten traditions which is the window indeede that you would haue faine left open vnto you for then thereby you hope you may thrust in and vpon the Church what you list and so countenance thereby your Antichristian doctrine when all other shifts faile let vs see whither this cannot yet further be made manifest out of him He as Eusebius reporteth Hist Eccles lib. 4. cap. 14. saied that Polycarpe taught that one and sole trueth which he had learned of the Apostles quae Ecclesia tradit which the Church deliuereth forth Where of necessity by those things which the Church deliuereth by tradition that he there speaketh of you may not vnderstand any other but those which haue warrant from the word writen and in no case those things that are besides that or coÌ„trary thereunto for then hee would not haue called that which Polycarpe preached the one and sole trueth for questionles those things are true that are conteined in the scriptures And this clearely appeareth if you marke the wordes as they are in Irenaeus himselfe in his 5. booke 20. cap. that Eusebius hath relation vnto which are these Polycarpe did mention or teach those thinges which he had heard of the Apostles that is all things agreeable to the scriptures Againe the same Irenaeus in his 3. booke and 3. cap. which is one of the Chapters by you before alleadged saieth that vnder Clement the Church of Rome wrought to the Corinthians shewing them quam traditionem what tradition of late they had receiued of the Apostles that is to say that God the father almighty and so forth as is expressed in Moyses is the father of our Lord Iesus Christ And that he is so taught to bee of the Churches saieth hee they that will learne may by the Scriptures and so they may vnderstand the Apostolique tradition of the Church Where it is most cleare that he telleth vs himselfe

but especially their doctrine hath bene directly contrary in a multitude of most material points of Christian religion to the doctrine taught vs in the Scripture as I shew in diuers places of this booke wee haue as we are counselled Apocal. 18. seperated our selues froÌ„ you and them least by holding society with you in these your sinnes we should in the iustice of God haue beene driuen also in the end to bee partakers with you in your plagues And therefore to conclude this chapter though you bragge that you haue two things to quiet your consciences withal that you beleeue a doctrine that your pastours the vniuersal Church haue taught you 1500. years and that their ill liues cannot hurt you yet in deede and trueth you haue neither of both for your ill liues being ioyned with ill doctrine hath bereaued you of both so you haue had nether the vniuersal Church of Christ but a particuler Synagogue of your own nor any sound or good pastour either for life or religion these 600 or 700 yeares to teach you your faith The X. Chapter NOw to turne vnto the taking of your accompts maie it please you to shew vs how you haue followed the steps of the flocke of Christ according to the counsel that we gaue to his reasonable sheepe as we haue saied before who hath taught you the way that you doe follow what doctours were your first tutors who hath taught you that the precious body of our Sauiour is not really in the Sacrament of the Altar who hath taught the doctrine or if it be not griefe vnto you heresie which you would haue vs to receiue as a Gospell I know before hand that you will alleadge me Iesus Christ and his holie Apostles whose steppes you doe professe to follow preaching euery where that there is no difference betweene your Church or to say trueth Synagogue the church of the Apostles But I pray let me vnderstand by what means you can ioine your selues vnto the Church of the Apostles seing that a This is an impudent vntruth you condemne cut off all the Christians that haue beene are betweene you them For to verifie this I will alleage no other but your owne workes for Caluin in his Institutions at the Treatise of the Supper of the Lord speaking of the oblation of the bodie of our Sauiour Christ as it was offered in olde time he doeth write punctuallie these wordes Caluinus in suÃ¢ institutione traditÃ¢ de CoenÃ¢ Domini I finde saieth he that those of old time haue changed this fashion otherwise then the Institution of our Sauiour did require seeing that their supper did represeÌ„t a certaine spectacle of a strange inuention or at the least of a new maner There is nothing more sure vnto the faithful theÌ„ for theÌ„ to holde themselues vnto the pure ordinance of the Lord by whoÌ„ it was called a supper to the ende that onely his authority may be our rule Yet it is true that when I consider their good meaning and that their intent was neuer to derogate froÌ„ the onely sacrifice of Christ I dare not condeÌ„ne theÌ„ of folly and yet I thinke that one cannot excuse theÌ„ that they haue not somewhat failed in the exteriour forme for they haue followed more the Ceremonies of the Iews theÌ„ the order of Iesus Christ did permit And this is the point in which they ought to be resisted for they haue conformed to much vnto the old TestameÌ„t not contenting theÌ„selues with the simple institution of Christ they haue to much inclined themselues vnto the shadowed Ceremonies of the Iewes law These are Caluins words The Reader may by them see well how this noble Reformer of the Gospel doeth correct al ages and Churches bee they of Martyrs CoÌ„fessours Doctours Interpreters Preachers or any others from the Apostles time vnto our age yet doeth he not denie but that hauing some regard of their simple ignoraÌ„ce he is content to be so good to theÌ„ as for this time not to condemne their errour or impietie because that which they did was with a good intent but yet fearing that the bearing them to much fauour would trouble his conscience he giueth sentence against them saying that a Yet this proueâ—h not that for the which you alleadged him they ought to be resisted because they were not content with the onely institution of Christ but rather that in this case they haue followed the shadowes of the Iewes Now for my part I thinke Caluin his fellowes so scrupulous that they would not ioine themselues vnto persons that are spotted with Iewish Ceremonies b Are you not ashamed thus to bely him is it not euidâ—nt in his words that hee speaketh but onely of some in olde time And because that all maner of people how wise soeuer they were from the Apostles time vntill our daies haue fallen into this errour he doeth counsel my masters his deformed followers according to his sentence to follow none of them at al but only the pure word of the Lord preached by Iesus Christ and by his aboue mentioned Apostles The X. Chapter IN that by the Scriptures we are able to iustifie our doctrine and therfore diuerse times haue called vpon you to come to that trial and yet cannot by any means bring you vnto it that we are sure that that doctrine therein warranted hath alwaies by God by the meanes he hath appointed for that purpose beene preserued and continued in his Church You returning now againe to take accounts of vs how we haue followed the flocke of Christs sheep that weÌ„t before vs fed by the tents of his shepheards are answered And yet for your better and more plaine satisfying who hath taught vs the way that we follow who were the Doctours that were ouâ— first tutors we answere you that Christ his Apostles EuaÌ„gelists in the new Testament were our first tutors since them in the principal points of our religion the aucient Fathers whose names and monumeÌ„ts are knowen vnto the Church that liued for 1000. years after Christ those that I named vnto you before in my answer to your 4 Chapter But particulerly you would know of vs who hath taught vs to deny the reall presence of Christs body in the Sacrament of the altar Here I suppose you meane by real presence that real presence which is in this case now taught and receiued in your Church vnder the formes of bread and wine to the mouthes of al receiuers be they faithful or faithlesse for otherwise none of vs doe deny a true and most certaine presence of Christ to the faith of the right receiuer This theÌ„ being your meaning we do not onely as you suppose answere you that we haue learned of Christ his Apostles to deny it but also of al the ancieÌ„t writers of credit accouÌ„t in the Church for 700 or 800 years togither since we haue bene coÌ„tinued in the same

by BertraÌ„ and others before named and their followers as we haue made it most euident in many bookes writeÌ„ to that purpose namely of late in a great booke called Orthodoxus coÌ„seÌ„sus the true catholick coÌ„sent of the holy Scriptures ancient Church of the trueth of the words of the Lords supper and of al the coÌ„trouersie thereabout printed at Tygure 1578 which booke al the swarme of you wil neuer be souÌ„dly able to answere coÌ„fute as long as you liue And therfore al the rest of this Chapter is needles wherein you suppose that betwixt Christ and his Apostles and vs there is none that we caÌ„ produce of our iudgemeÌ„t or otherwise against you But you take vpoÌ„ you to proue that we cut of theÌ„ al that haue bene betweene theÌ„ vs because Caluin hath writeÌ„ haÌ„dling this matter of the sacrament that he did find that they of old time had chaÌ„ged the fashioÌ„ of the administratioÌ„ therof otherwise theÌ„ Christs institutioÌ„ would beare c. wheruâ—oÌ„ your coÌ„clusion followeth not for diuers causes For an argumeÌ„t froÌ„ one to al holdeth not as Caluin hath done so ergo it is all out opion we al do so For though we accouÌ„t of him as of a rare singuler minister of the Lord yet wee doe not binde our selues to doe and say whatsoeuer he did and saied For we know him to haue beene a man subiect to error and infirmity for al his gifts neither wil you be coÌ„tented that such an argument should hold alwaies drawn froÌ„ any one of your greatest most famous learned writers to presse al the rest And a second reason of the weaknes of your argumeÌ„t is that there is more in your coÌ„clusion then is in the antecedent giuen you by him For you would conclude for those are your words to the proofe whereof you cite Caluin that we condeÌ„ne cut of al the ChristiaÌ„s that haue bene are betwixt Christ his Apostles and vs wheras Caluin speaketh not of al but of some of olde time The 3 reason Caluin himselfe giueth you in the eueÌ„ in the words set downe by you he sheweth plainly that though in theÌ„ that he spake of he noted some aberration froÌ„ the simplicity of Christs institution yet he did not therfore cut theÌ„ of froÌ„ the Church nor coÌ„deÌ„ne theÌ„ What are you such a cutter that you straight cut of al those froÌ„ coÌ„munioÌ„ with you in whoÌ„ you caÌ„ iustly finde any fault or errour in opinion or practise of life Surely then you must cut of most of your best frends That which we can foundly proue to be a fault in brethren either ancient or of later time we may safely note tel them of and labour to reforme yet as long as they ioine togither with vs in one God faith and Baptisme otherwise we can and ought to holde peace Christian communion with them or els where caÌ„ there at any time be any true concord or peace kept in the church For some differences of opinions vsages there haue alwaies yet beene and wil be betwixt one particuler Church and another and betwixt some members of the true church or other You needed not therfore I warrant you one whit haue beene afraide that Caluin his fellowes were so scrupulous that they would not ioine in fellow ship with some such as he speaketh of there and yet the letteth not but that he should couÌ„sel his readers to prefer Christs own simple institution before the vsage of them or any other differing from it The XI Chapter YOu doâ— verie wel that S. Paul doth coÌ„pare many times the mistical body of the church vnto a natural body seing that Iesus Christ is the head vnto whoÌ„ the body is ioined by ioints bones sinews If one should then demande of you how the feete are ioined to the head you will answere me by the legs which are next vnto the feete And if I aske you how the legs are ioyned to the head you will answer by the ioints and by the ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ of the backe and so consequently from member to member I doe beleeue that we are all of one accord * 1 Cor. 10. that the ende of the world is at hand and so consequently that we are the lower most part of the body so that ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ the feete or the legs Then my masters you that haue made so fâ—ne aâ— Anotomie of the Masse at my request make another of the ministrie of your congregation a You were a very pleasant man be like that could thus play your selfe a fit of mirth and when you had done daunce after your owne pipe it seemes you thought that the sport then would be so pleasant that no beholder could forbare laughter If you should see such another as Apelles that would paint a man and that he had drawen his head and without painting the rest of his bodie he had set his feete vnder his eares what would you saâ—â— to such a Table Spectatum admissi risum teneatis amici Would you not thinke that he was a simple painter or else a great Iester Euen so doe you deserue that one should laugh at your ministerie b This is vntrue and a grosse slaÌ„der for we hold and teach that euer since Christ to our daies there haue bene both shepheards and sheepe ioyning with vs in the vnity of faith therfore you laugh at your owne shadow and vaine fansie For you will ioine your Church if it may bee so called vnto the church of the Apostles without setting forth anie members betweene them You take but scant measure when you will cut of all the Bishops Pastours and doctours that haue beene from the Apostles time till our daies they being the members that followe the head of the church This maie well be called a new Religion or to saie the truth it is a meere presumption to flie without winges or to climbe without a ladder And I saie to you againe that this is not the waie to followe the counsell of the great Sheepheard that I mentioned before who doeth saie vnto vs that if we will not misse the waie of the Catholicks we ought to follow the flocke of those sheepe that haue gone before vs that is to saie that we should reckon c But thâ—s in truth yours caÌ„not do therefore yours is not the Catholicke Church by your owne reason by succession the Pastours that haue succeeded in continuance of one kinde of doctrine the which as we haue shewed the Catholicke church doeth and hath euer done The XI Chapter As though you had most substaÌ„tially proued by Caluins words that we cut of all Christians betwixt the Apostles and vs in this Chapter you vrge the metaphor of a body whereunto vsually the church of Christ is compared whereupon you gather that as there is an orderly connexion and situation of members in a body so there must be in the church and that therefore our church must

needes be a monstrous mishapen thing in ioyning the Christians of these later daies with the Apostles without any betwixt and fosâ—â—ating as it were the feete of the body hard to the eares without any other members betwixt the one and the other And thus hauing framed this mery conceit in your owne heade you call vpon your frendes to laugh at it with you and so you proceede in telling vs that whiles we take this course we fly without wings and climbe without a ladder and despise the counsell of Salomon which after your maner you interpret that we should reckon by succession the pastours that haue succeeded in continuance of one kinde of doctrine the which you say you haue shewed you haue done To what purpose now is all this seeing in trueth neither we doe thus cut of all Christians betwixt them and vs neither haue you shewed any such succession of pastours downe from them to you continuing in your doctrine Truely to no other purpose can they serue but to expresse your owne ridiculous vanity Howbeit because you called in the former Chapter for the names of those that haue caught vs to deny your real presence in the sacrament and vpon a conceit in your owne fansie that you haue posed vs you haue growen to bee thus full of these swelling wordes of vanity and because I feare neither you nor many of your disciples will vouchsafe to peruse those books that I sent you vnto for answere in that point yet haue hope that for your sake some of you may chauÌ„ce vouchsafe to reade this I will not sticke with you particulerly to satisfie your request a little further First therefore vnderstand that we haue learned to deny your kinde of reall presence of Christ himselfe the institutour of this Sacrament because he hath flatly and vehemently affirmed without exception Iohn 6.54 that whosoeuer eateth his flesh drinketh his bloud hath eternall life Whereas by the meanes of your doctrine it followeth because all that receiue this sacrament haue not faith but manie lacke it that it shall bee eaten of manie that shal be neuer the better by it but the worse We haue also further learned it of him in that in the same Chapter speaking of the eating of his body drinking of his bloud he drew his hearers from a grosse conceit of eating drinking him by their bodily mouthes by vsing of the word beleeueth in stead of eateth and drinketh ver 40.47 and cap. 7.38 by mentioning vnto them his ascention Iohn 6.62 lattly by saying vnto theÌ„ It is the Spirit that quickeneth the flesh profiteth nothing the words that I speake vnto you are spirit life ver 63. This finally we haue learned of him saying If any shall say vnto you Lo here is Christ there is Christ beleeue it not Math. 24.23 by his continuing at the table when he first instituted and ministred it vnto his Apostles without alteration either of his place or forme Mat. 26. Mar. 12. Luke 22.1 Cor. 11. The Apostles euaÌ„gelists haue also taught vs to deny it in that they teach vs that he visibly asceÌ„ded into heauen that he shall so also come againe wheÌ„ he coÌ„meth froÌ„ thence c. Act. 1.11 especially seeing his comming to iudgement is called his secoÌ„d comming Heb 9.28 and vntil the restitutioÌ„ of all things it is saied by Peter the heaueÌ„s must coÌ„taine him Act. 3.21 The EuaÌ„gelists in laying downe vnto vs the story of his natiuity life death so prouing vnto vs that he was is a true and perfect maÌ„ encourage vs also least we should with the Marcionites other heretiques denie the trueth of his maÌ„hood coÌ„tantly to â—â—â—y your reall preseÌ„ce for the maintenance whereof you are driueÌ„ to fansy a nuÌ„ber of things quite contrary to the nature trueth of his maÌ„hood And lastly in that reciting the words of the institution they tel vs that Christ commanded that to be done in remeÌ„brance of him Luke 22.19 1. Cor. 11.24 there Paul saith v. 26. As often as ye shall eate this bread drink this cup ye shew the lords death till he coÌ„e which words plainly argu that though the sacrameÌ„t be both rightly ministresâ— receiued yet it inferreth not any such real preseÌ„ce as you ther imagâ—â— Now betwixt them vs we finde infinite places in writers of all ages that teach vs still to denie your reall presence but amongst many marke these for example TertulliaÌ„ in his 4. booke against MarcioÌ„ interpreteth these words Hoc est corpus meum thus that is to say This is a figure of my body Augustine against AdamaÌ„tus the Manichee c. 12. writeth that christ doubted not to say This is my body wheÌ„ he gaue a signe of his body vpoÌ„ the 3. Ps he saieth that Christ admitted Iudas to a baÌ„quet where he coÌ„meÌ„ded a figure of his body to his disciples vpoÌ„ the 98. Ps he saith yee shal not eat this body that yee see neither shall yee drinke that bloud which they shall shed that crucify me I haue coÌ„mended vnto you a certaine sacrament it being spiritually vnderstoode will giue you life In his 3. booke therfore of Christian doctrine he writeth thus This saying of Christ Except yee eate the flesh of the son of maÌ„ c. seemeth to coÌ„mand an heinous thing a wicked therefore it is a figure coÌ„maÌ„ding vs to be partakers of Christs passioÌ„ keeping in our minds to our great profit coÌ„fort that his flesh was crucified wouÌ„ded for vs. c. 16. he saith It is a miserable slauery of the soule to take the signes for the things signified in the same booke c. 5. And therefore in his 23. epistle he telleth vs that the similitude betwixt the signe the thing signified is the cause why the one beareth the name of the other in sacrameÌ„ts in his 57. questioÌ„ vpoÌ„ Leuitic he giueth vs this rule The thing that signifieth is woÌ„t to bear the name of the thing which it signifieth as Paul said The rock was Christ not it signified Christ but eueÌ„ as it had bene indeed which neuertheles was not Christ by substaÌ„ce but by signification So that his vsual doctrine is to teach vs in this sacrament to seeke christ in heaueÌ„ by faith thereby to make him present which otherwise is absent as you may read in his 50. tract vpon Iohn els where very often And with Augustine the rest of the fathers consent in this matter therefore nothing is more coÌ„moÌ„ with them then to call the outward part in this sacrament a signe figure similitude resemblance or representatioÌ„ as it appeareth in these places Chrysostom in his 83. Homil vpon Mat. Hierom in his 2. booke against IouiniaÌ„ Ambr. in his 4. booke of the sacraments c. 5. Basil in his lyturgy Ephr in his 4. booke against the impugners of Christs manhood by humane reason And Origen vpoÌ„ Leuit hom 7. teacheth vs that the letter

not be against himselfe Ma. 12. what were they to do els but according to that the God gaue theÌ„ and the places they had in vniuersities in the church to proceede to call the people yet froÌ„ those errors to the truth When fire shal take hold of a city or the enimy scale the wal in the night if the least burgesse shall giue an alaruÌ„ yea if it be but a straÌ„ger the watchmaÌ„ sleeping that should giue warning no maÌ„ would staÌ„d trifling in demanding by what title he did it but streight he will run to the water and to the wals and laie to his hands to preueÌ„t the mischiefe thanke him that gaue the warning And yet wheÌ„ the meÌ„ we speake of giue notice of a greater danger though it be as necessary to listen vnto them to be warned by them as the saluation of mens soules is yet they caÌ„not finde this wisdome and thankfulnes in men It should seeme by your standing thus precisely vpon the necessity of visible succession ordinary impositioÌ„ of haÌ„ds in theÌ„ the god shal send to teach men or els they may not be heard that either you haue not red or els that you greatly disseÌ„ble your knowlege that God hath vsed the ministry of diuers persoÌ„s that haue wanted those to coÌ„uert nations to lay the fouÌ„datioÌ„ of churches to doe very much good For Ruffinus in his Eccl. Hist 1. booke and c. 10. Theodoret in his 1. book c. 23. report that a captiue maiden did first kindle the light of the Gospell amongst the IberiaÌ„s who being the meanes first to coÌ„uert the Queene the Queene coÌ„uerted the King he wtout any orders as you call them taught his people the Christian faith so begaÌ„ the church there It is also writeÌ„ by Ruff. lib. 1â— c. 9. by Theodoret in the 22. c. of his saied booke by Nicep in his 8. book c. 35 that AEdesius and Frumentius brought thither being â—â—yes by Meropius a philosoper and there taken and preserued aliue when he and the rest of his company were slain growing after into good credit and authority there were the first means of the sowing of the seede of the Gospell amongst the Barbarians in the further India to the profession and exercises whereof especially Frumentius and that not onely after that by Athanasius he was ordained there bishop but before euer by any he was ordeined either minister or bishop was a notable effectuall meanes both to excite marchantes that came thither and to drawe the people of that countrey it selfe Moreouer Eusebius in his ecclesiastical history reporteth in his sixte booke and 19. Chapter that Origen taught publikely before he had ordination certaine bishops being present which when Demetrius Alexandrinus obiected as a fault to Alexander bishop of Hierusalem and to Theoclistus bishop of Caesarea they defended themselues by alleadging diuers such famous examples as namely of Euelpis Paulinus and Theodorus which in like sort had preached without the ordinary ordination Yea read Nicephorus 2 booke and 25. Chapter and he will tell you that vnder Constantius Antonie the heremite taught at Alexandria and that vnder Valens at Antioch Aphraatis Flauianus Iulianus being then but monkes who in those dayes were not reckoned amongst Clarkes at all for vnto Gregories time they were not accounted Clarkes did publickely preach and confute heretiques And yet these examples I alleadge not that I would be authour to anie when an ordinarie calling may be had to despise that and to take vpon them that function of the Ministrie without that lawfull ordinary calling for that were to disturbe the peace of the Church and to open a gap to much disorder and inconuenience but to this end to make it appear that the Church of God in former ancient times hath not so precisely and curiously stood vpon these points of visible succession and ordination for the iustifying of ones preaching the Gospel at al times and in all places as you doe For doubtles there haue beene times and yet may be as after that great apostasie spoken of 2. Thes 2. in other great ruines of the Church when it hath and may please the Lord to call men extraordinarily to this worke without either immediate locall or personall succession going before who as long as they preach but the trueth and otherwise the times be so corrupt that of them that haue authority ordinarily to call men to that busines such rather should be shut out generally then let into the ministrie are to be receiued heard and listened vnto as such whom the Lord of his mercy hath extraordinarily called himselfe The XIIII Chapter CAluin doeth alleadge to vs that the Apostles doe saie that no bodie ought to take vpon him the honour of the high priesthoode except he be called to it as Aaron was meaning by that to conclude that of our owne authority we haue vsurped the dignitie of Priesthood a And â—et to no purpose We haue answered him at large of our vocation by the succession of Pastours ioined with the imposition of handes I doe demande of him or of his if they can make any true answere to the like obiection You doe laie to our charge the all liues of our Popes and Bishops and the naughtinesse that you pretend to finde in our Preachers but all those inuectiues serue to no other purpose but to shew how you keepe b Nay you shall haue the bell both for that for prophane iering scoffing a learned schoole of railing the which preheminence we doe yeeld to you without any debate or processe for ye maie attribute that vnto your selues as your owne by right insteede of the imposition of hands which ye want But in one thing to my iudgment you are greatlie ouerseene and that is this c When you obserue this lawe your selues we wil learn of you Why doe ye not fill both sides of your booke in the one you set forth at large without omitting anie point of their ill doings al the naughtie lives of our Pastours and Bishops but the other sides of the leaues are emptie you should haue writen on them the holie liues of your Ministers succeeding one after an other this thousand and fiue hundred yeares When the Popes Bonifacius Gregorius did gouerne ill their Seats at Rome d I haue sufficiently answered this cap. 4. which were the good and holie ministers that did their duetie at Geneua When our Doctours did preach against God in times past in what part or vnder what sign were your Ministers lodged that did then preach the pure word of the Lord e Reasoned like your selues as though the Apostles neuer lawfully hid themselues from the fury of the persecuters if they did hide themselues they did not folow the pure word of the Lord the which you say is necessarie to know the true faithful beleeuers For Christ doeth saie Mat. 10. that hee that shal deny him before men him

proue by a law of Theodosius and Arcades Emperours of Rome made to forbid men vnder paine of leesing their right not to seeke to recouer possession of their own by violence force Wherunto I answere you that graunt vs so much which of right you must and for all your tale and penall Statute of Theodosius and Arcades we shall be to good for you For first what other Iudges sentence were wee to expect but theirs that we had on our side alreadie Secondly there hath beene no such tumultuous or disorderly violence vsed by vs as I haue shewed before as their lawe forbiddeth to recouer our owne from you and then you must vnderstand that these Emperours prescribe their lawe to bridle men and not to binde God from recouering his inheritance to the vse of his seruants from the hands of Antichristian vsurpers euen by force and violence if otherwise they will not yeeld To proue therefore that God would haue called in our commission though he had graunted it rather then hee would haue suffred vs to execute it in violent driuing you out of possession to recouer our owne right you had neede to haue vsed a stronger reason then taken from the edict of Emperours If these thinges had beene well coÌ„sidered before of you you might haue spared your iest wherewith you conclude this Chapter well enough and so rather haue staied your pipes your selfe then in such sorte as you haue blowen so ioyfully in token of triumph before any likelihoode of victory The vanity and falshoode of your bragge for the continuance of your religion aboue one thousand yeares before we were borne not onely throughout France but also throughout all Christendome I haue fully and at large discouered in the later ende of the preface in my answer to your 4.16 39. ca. therfore in this place I haue saied no more then I haue referring the reader for a full answere thereuÌ„to both here and wheresoeuer else it is repeated by you vnto these places And though S. Augustine say as you write that liberty and licence of conscience to doe euil is the death of the soule yet that toucheth vs nothing at al for doing what we may by lawfull ordinary means to dispossesse your AntichristiaÌ„ prelats of the places of gouernment ouer Christs Church and of the maintenance due to his true faithful pastors For so to deale is but orderly to recouer Gods inheritance out of the hands of his enemies to possesse them thereof to whom it is due and therefore in so doing there is neither liberty nor licence to doe euil practised But rather you in crauing the restoring of you thereunto and quiet continuance therein still craue both liberty licence without controlement to go on in sacrilegious enioying that which at no hand appertaines to such as you be The XVI Chapter FOR a This is vntrue for wee alleage both our lawful calling shew the right that we not you haue to those places and maintenaÌ„ce for they were appointed for true Pastours and not for wolues foxes as your Prelates haue beene a great while your defence you alleage no other reason but your good zeale and your ardent Apostolicall affection the which hath mooued you to sowe this seede of sedition You saie that the fielde is great and there are few good reapers but if you marke that that doeth followe afterward and to take the counsaile of the wise Christ doeth not commaunde therefore that euerie one should take his sickle and go and cut downe other mens corne But he saieth * b Mat. 15. b Mat. 9. It is but your ill luck scarce to quote one of ten rightly Pray the master of the worke to the end that he sende more workemen to his vine He doeth teach vs that if we see anie estate out of order we should praie to God to redresse it And in the meane time we ought to correct and amend our owne liues for if euerie man were for himselfe God would bee for vs all c That is a good means but doth it thereupoÌ„ follow that no other meanes is good and lawfull to that ende and in that case Yet notwithstanding this it is not reasonable that vnder the colour of a good zeale a seruant shoulde take in hand an act of so great importaunce without expresse commandement of his master as it is saied But now that wee are come to talke of your good zeale if it please you let vs knovv d Neither haue we if those ardent flames of charitie haue so inflamed you that you haue ouerthrowen the chaires of the negligent Pastours and Bishops and in their roomes ye haue collocated your ministers in euerie place where yee could beare anie swaie as it doeth appeare in manie townes and Cities in this Realme I doe not doubt but that you vvill doe the best that yee can to doe the like with the rest e This is but a malitious surmise enforced to make vs odious contrary both to your coÌ„science and experience but indeede it is plaine by proofe that thus you deaâ—e with Kings and Queenes if they be â—oâ— of your sect and humor I meane as vvell temporall as spirituall For euen as God of whom yee speake so often doeth make no exception of persons euen so you that call your selues his Lieutenants will make no difference betweene the euill estates the good Euerie one doeth know that the administration of iustice is verie honourable before God and that there be manie in this vocation that would not for anie thing doe anie wrong vnto the widow and fatherlesse childe yet we see and know by experience that there are manie others that without anie conscience doe take bribes and offer wrong both to the fatherlesse to the widow the which crimes are no lesse in that estate then the carelesse liuing of the Bishops and Pastors So that I thinke by this that he that hath giueÌ„ you charge power to turne the Bishops out of their seats the Curats out of their benefices and the Monkes and Abbots out of their Abbeys because of their euill liuings would likewise extende your commission to put downe Lordes Knightes Iudges and Gentlemen because of the corrupt liues of manie of them And to make an ende of the reformation your holie Ghost and those zealous flames of the spirit woulde mooue you to go a little higher for there is nothing done but the spirit may amend it Against the great trees striue the great windes and against great dignities great abuses It is not vnknown to al meÌ„ that ther are good and godly Catholicke Princes and Kings which are surelie to the people the great giftes of God but likewise one cannot denie but that there hath beene and are diuers ill Princes that doe gouerne their people careleslie without iustice And if by chance your Gospell should fall into some kingdom where the Prince were not so sage nor so

wise as you would haue him in your conscience what would you doe to him I thinke that that verie zeale if you coulde that hath mooued you vnder the colour of a reformed Gospell to trouble so much a This you attempt and practise flatly all the world knoweth Looke else to the course that your legers now in France take against their king our state vvould likewise commaunde you to dispossesse those Kings that doe abuse there owne kingdomes euen asvvell as to depriue those Bishoppes that doe abuse their bishoprickes But O Lorde vvhat a Gospell is this if it bee permitted that the people shall call their Princes to accompt or that they maie correct their superiours vnder the colour of a reformed Gospell vvhat seditions troubles and vvarres shall vvee see ouer all Christendome Wee shall see fulfilled to our great harme the prophecie of * Cap. 3. Esay who saieth The people shall seeke to raise one against another euery one against his neighbour the yong man shal disdaine the old and the ignoble the noble c But what colour soeuer ye cloke your new Gospel withal ye run far wide from him that doeth command vs * Rom. 13. to b If this lesson had beene remeÌ„bred of your Romish prelats they neither could nor would haue beene so terrible to Kings and Emperours as they haue beene of late obeie al creatures for the loue of God He doeth not regard whether they doe acquite their charge or no for the obedience of the inferiours is not limited by the duetie of the superiours * Rom. 13. Al power doeth come of God saieth the Apostle he that resisteth that power doeth resist the ordinance of God and they that doe with saie it acquire for themselues damnation for euer c The Lord in his word prescribeth obedience to ciuill magistrates and to all such ministers and Chu ch officers as are according to his ordinance but if they be contrary to that as your Popes be hee saieth neuer a word for them but many against them He doeth make no distinction of persons whither it be a Magistrate Ecclesiastical or temporal whither it be a King or a Pope a Bishop or a Lord he doeth talke generally of al powers that are established by God to make vs liue in peace tranquility God had not chosen of his good wil Caesar the Emperour of Rome to be king of HierusaleÌ„ as he did chuse Saul Dauid Salomon the rest for of his owne ambition vnsatiable cupidity he had vsurped the kingdom appertaining to the house of Dauid yet our Sauiour did commaund that they should paie him tribute Math. 22. The which commandement he himselfe did fulfill to teach others obedience God did likewise permit that the wicked king Nabuchodonozor should destroie the kingdome of Hierusalem to punish the wickednes of those that dwelt in it And although hee had inuaded the kingdome of Iuda to the which he had no title nor right yet doth God protest that he gaue it him he willeth doeth command that they should obey him euen as if he were the best Prince of the world Beholde saieth God by the Prophet Ieremy Cap. 27. you shall tell your Lordes that I make the earth the men the beastes that walke on the face of the earth through my great strength and mighty arme and I haue giuen it to whom it pleaseth me And so now I haue giuen all these Lands and countreyes to Nabuchodonozor my seruant king of Babylon Besides this I haue giuen him the beastes and the fields to serue him his sonne his sonnes sonne vntill the time of his earth come also of him many people great kings shal come and shal ordaine that the kingdome or the people that shall not serue Nabuchodonozor king of BabyloÌ„ I wil visit that people saieth the Lord with the sword pestilence and hunger vntil that I consume them in his hands c. But if you my masters the new reformers of the Gospel had beene in those daies what would haue bridled your burning zeale d Noâ— for your Popes place and office that he challenges is far more vnlawfull then Nabuchodonozors was Could yee not with a little better cause report of Nobuchodonozor that that ye report of the Pope for who is that Nabuchodonozor that we should submit our selues vnto him He is not a king hee is not a tirant hee is not an Emperour but a robber a cutthrote more cruel then anie kinde of wilde beast Is it not by him that the Prophets haue represented the spoiler of nations For God when he would cause * Cap. 14. Esay e Cujus contrarium verum est to talke of the fall of Lucifer he doeth discrie it vnder the person of Nabuchodonozor then how wil you haue vs to submit our selues to be subiect vnto him whom God doeth liken not onelie to a deuill but to the captaine of all the deuils of hell Manie causes doe persuade vs not to obey him First his wicked abhominable life Secondly our religioÌ„ for we beleeue in God that created heauen earth but as for him he is more theÌ„ a worshipper of Idoles for he is one that called himselfe a God Thirdlie he is not of the line of Dauid by whom God had promised to establish his kingdome for hee was a stranger such a one as got into the kingdome by force making himselfe a king not by righteous election but by violent compulsion so that considering althese things ye might well according to your zeale haue found fault with his raigne but God would haue stopped your mouthes saying as I haue writeÌ„ aboue I haue created all things I giue theÌ„ to whoÌ„ it pleaseth me Or as he saieth in * Cap. 34. Iob It is I that cause Hypocrits to raign to punish the sins of the people Or as he saieth in the .4 of Daniel I haue the prehemineÌ„ce ouer the kingdomes of men I giue theÌ„ to whoÌ„ it pleaseth me f True the authority being of it selfe lawfulâ— as Nabuchodonosors was though he abused it but it is not so when the office it selfe is vtterly vnlawfull as your Pope is And he that speaketh against him that is put in authoritie although he be as euil as Nabuchodonozor hee shall perish thorough the sword famine or pestilence or that that is worse through eternal death These are the very words that God spake by the Prophet therefore saieth Christ Come vnto me learn in my schoole for I am humble and milde of heart I haue obeyed Pylate and Annas Cayphas I haue suffered the senteÌ„ce of death haue beene nailed betweene two theeues * Math. 12. and I tooke it paciently for your sakes Learne of me to be my disciples in the schoole of humility and you shall finde rest in your spirits The which true rest indeede is for euerie man to examine diligently his owne conscience and to commit

to returne to your perswasion of vs to be meeke and humble c. tell me in good earnest did Christ at any time obey any of them you speake of in any thing that was ill and was there not a necessity in regard of our redeÌ„ption to suffer those things which he suffered and as he suffered them at their hands what maketh this then either to binde vs to obey the wicked vngodly proceedings of your Popes and Prelates wherein onely we refuse to listen vnto them or needelesly to suffer those thinges at your hand which lawfully we may auoide And I trust you are perswaded that Christ himselfe that willed others to learne of him to be huÌ„ble and meeke that he neuer forgat that lesson himselfe And yet if you reade Mat. 23. and Iohn the 8. you shall finde that he comprising the high Priestes themselues within the compasse of his speech aswell as other his inferiour malitious enemies calleth them hypocrits children of the Deuill c. And the Prophets though they were not to learne of you how to behaue them selues to higher powers yet they did vse often very sharpe and bitter speeches against the Princes and other rulers of their times an example whereof you haue Esay 1.10 in these wordes Heare the word of the Lord O Princes of Sodom hearken to the law of our God O people of Gomorrah But Paul you will say Act. 23. hauing called a wicked high Priest that contrary to law tyrannously had commanded him to be smitten painted wall being admonished thereof corrects himselfe remeÌ„bring that it is writeÌ„ thou shalt not raile or speake ill of the Prince Ex. 22. saying I knew not that he was the high Priest Indeede one of the high Priests clawbacks who are alwaies ready to iustify their master how vniustly soeuer he deale and to controle Gods seruaÌ„ts for saying neuer so litle amisse of theÌ„ though therunto they be neuer so iustly prouoked gaue him a check therefore wherevpon it seemeth that Paul vpon the reason aforesaied excused himselfe but indeede he did it in such sort as that in trueth he giue him a greater blow though somewhat more couertly then he had done before in plainly shewing that that dealing of his considered he knew him not to be the high Priest But if this notwithstanding you thinke still that Paul would not giue any harde speech to such a Prelate and iustifie it when he had done consider a little what reckoning you make of Saint Peter and then call to remembrance what is writen Gal. 2. and you shall finde it cleare that not onely he rebuked Peter openly at Antioch but that also he iustifies that his owne doing therein saying that he did so because he went not with the right foote to the Gospell And learne by these places not to be so dainty ouer your Popes and Prelates hereafter but that if they doe lewdly think it may well stand with that meekenes humility that Christ hath taught vs that they be plainly as they deserue tolde of their doings by vs. It is one thing to rafle of them that be in lawful authority and to backbite and depraue them and another thing it is by way of instruction admonitioÌ„ and reprehensioÌ„ by plaine iust and true tearms to let them see their faults so it be done in time and place conuenient in maner beseeming such an action This later might the Iewes doe to Nabuchadnezzar notwithstanding Ieremies words and the Christians vnder the heathen Emperours to them and yet both keep within duety and loialty but the former is that which is vnlawful to bee vsed against any how bad soeuer he be that is in place of lawfull magistracy or office Finally whereas you yet thinke scorne that your Pope should bee worse then Nabuchadnezzar and that therefore the Iewes might haue had far more iust exceptions against him to free them froÌ„ their obedience and submission to him then we haue to free vs from subiection to your Popes in trueth therein you are very much deceiued For first his authority as a King ouer them was a power in it selfe lawful though abused by him and yours as I haue shewed is flatly vnlawfull and the Iewes were commanded subiection vnto him and we are commanded as I haue saied Reuel 18. to forsake all communion with your Popish Antichristian kingdome Your Popes for lewdnes of life for manifold Idolatries and blasphemies in Religion and for want of right title to the dignity and office which they claime doubtlesse will thorowly match him by how much their knowledge in respect of the meanes they haue which he lackt should be more then his by so much these things in them make them more intolerable then the same could make him And therefore these thinges considered the obedience and submission which the Iews were enioyned to yeeld to Nabuchadnezzar inferreth not the like to be due to your Popes and other your Romish Prelates The XVII Chapter ANy maÌ„ may easily perceiue by this discourse that you haue no great reason in saying that that you saie and much lesse to doe that that you preach I meane to begin the reformation of the church by the waie of force the which is a thing contrarie to all lawes diuine and humane which defende * Cod. vt nemo in suÃ¢ causÃ¢ jud that a This is your dealing flat for your Pope is the party many waies most iustly charged by vs yet he wil be the supreme iudge in his owne cause one should bee Iudge in his owne cause and you will not onelie be a Iudge but a partie resembling in this him that gaue the blowe to Christ vnto whom the answere was made * b Job 15. b Wel hit again 15. for 18. If we haue done ill c This alwaies we are ready to doe proue it before the Iudge seeing that you are our accusers If you saie that God hath giuen you power to knowe to iudge and to exempt that is to saie to driue vs out of our possession and to cause the people to forsake that Religion which they haue maintained d It is a shame to repeate this bragge so often and neuer to go about in all your booke once to proue it which you know is the maine question these 1500. yeares vpwards shew vs your commission with as sure a warrant as so great a matter doeth require seeing that you saie that ye are sent extraordinarilie as Moses was to redeem the childreÌ„ of Israell out of the captiuity of Egypt that is to say according vnto your interpretatioÌ„ the children of God the true faithful out of the false Religion of the Papists of that which the Pope Antichrist worse theÌ„ Pharao is the head master Thus ye vse to expouÌ„d moralizate the figures of the olde Testament in fauour of the Catholicke Church yet is it so that when God spake vnto you about so zealous a thing as this yee

altar and the leaues of the other scattered all ouer the church wherevpon Adrian the Pope like a profound interpreter of visions gathers that it was the Lords meaning thereby to shew that S. Ambroses Lyturgy might well be vsed vpon his owne altar at Millan but the other should be vsed generally ouer all churches and thus the credit of Saint Gregories masse was first established Howbeit before transubstantiation came in which was not as I haue sayed before the yeare 1215 it was nothing the minion that it hath beene since And yet euen then it was not growen to her highest credit for about fiue yeares after it was ere that adoration or eleuation of the host was decreed for then first Honorius the 3 enacted that and the hosts holiday commonly called Corpus Christi day was not made before Pope Vrbans tyme in the year 1260. as witnesseth Polydor in his 6 booke and 8 Chapter of the inuentours of things Whereupon it may euideÌ„tly appeare that the masse as it is now is but a very youngling and one of her father the Popes youngest daughters And as for latin seruice her coÌ„panion it was first brought into England by one Theodorus sent hither by Pope Vitellian about the yeare 657. And to proceede to other pointes of Popery as it is well knowen it is an other most principall point of your religion to attribute vnto the Pope that vniuersal supremacy ouer al bishops and ouer the whole Church of Christ that you doe for you haue made it an article vnder payne of damnation to be receiued that there is no saluation but vnder his obedience and within his communion as it is set downe by Boniface the 8 in his extrauagant de maioritate obedientiÃ¢ And yet in the 6 Canon of the Nicene councell holden about the yeare 330. as some count it appeares that then the Roman bishop had his bounds and limits prescribed him aswell as the other patriarches And the generall councell of Calcedon and the 6. generall councell held at Constantinople determined Can. 36. that the bishop of that see should haue equall priueledges with the bishop of old Rome 680 yeares after Christ And appeales to Rome were forbidden vnder paine of excommunication in the couÌ„cel of Mileuitan Cap. 22. and of Africke Cap. 92. Further yet your owne proper and late councels of Constance and Basil haue not long ago greatly curtolled the supremacy that now the Pope chalength for they haue decreed that the authority of a general councel is so farre aboue him that thereby he may be condemned and deposed And though now according to your Canon Dist 40. cap. si papa your popes wil be lawles may not by any be controled though be lead people headlong by heaps to hel as it is there set downe yet I read that in Pope Symachus tyme about the yeare 500. after Christ that many bishops did accuse him then to Theodoricus king of the Gothes because he took vpon him to be ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ that is one whose wil should be a law And in the couÌ„cel of Carthage the thâ—â— there was a decree made Cap. 26. against sundry ambitious ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ chalenged euen then as it should seeme to be due vnto the bishopâ— of Rome as that they should not be called Prince of Priestes ã€ˆâ€¦ã€‰ priest but bishops of the first see And howsoeuer now Hoâ—ius Belarmine and others reckon the title of ecumenicall or vniuersall bishop amongst the due and iust titles of the Pope yet it is flatly set downe as a thing vnlawful and is forbid in the 99. distinctâ—â—â— ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ by the iudgment of Pelagius bishop of Rome in the yeare 58â—â— by Gregory the first his successor And it is wel known that Gregory very directly and often condeÌ„ned this title both in Iohn bishop of CoÌ„staÌ„tinople and in al other bishops himselfe and the bishops of the see of Rome not excepted as it is euident in his 4 book of Epistles Epi. 30 38.88 in his 9 book Ep. 45. Your set daies of fasting you learned of MoÌ„tanus your placing so necessary a point of fasting in abstineÌ„ce froÌ„ flesh of the Manichees as it appears in Aug. 74. Epist wherein you are as deepe as either they or any other heretickes euer were witnes your owne Dur. li. 6. c. de ieiuniis For he there giueth this as a reason why in fasting flesh is rather abstained from then fish because al flesh was accursed and not al fish in the daies of Noe. And compare Augustines description of the Manichees fasts with yours in his 2 book de moribus ManicheoruÌ„ Cap. 13. and you shal finde theÌ„ marueilous like Further what holines soeuer you imagin to be in your forbidding your cleargy mariage and how ancient soeuer you would perswade the simple and ignorant that that order is any man may see that reads Augustines foresaied 74 Epistle his 18 Chapter of his second booke de moribus Manicheorum as the Manichees Tatimists learned to condemne mariage as they did of the Ethnicks as Clemens Alexandrinus thinketh they did Stromat 3 so you haue learned this your kind of forbidding your cleargy as you cal them marriage of them For there it appears that they allowed it amongst their ordinary hearers forbad it onely to those that studied perfection and were the chosen ones to the ministery amongst them eueÌ„ as you do But whatsoeuer either you or they say or haue sayed to the contrary for the iustifying of this your antichristian deuise as it is most cleare to any that readeth but the old testament that mariage was as allowable to the Lords priests then and as honourable accounted both of God and good men so ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ lesse clearly doeth it appeare in the new 1. Cor. 9. 1. Tim. 3. that the lyke opinion was retained both of the honorablenes and lawfulnesse thereof for Apostles Euangelists and al other ministers of the Lord insomuch that Paul in the first of these places howsoeuer you papists seeking to hide his playne meaning disorder his words read a woman a sister for a sister a wife sheweth not onely how the brethren of the Lord and Cephas caried their Christian wiues vp and down with theÌ„ but that also it was lawful for them so to due to take maintenance where they preached for themselues theirs that he Barnabas if they listed might lawfully euen doe so also Insomuch that S. Paul 1. Tim. 4 doeth flatly aduouch the denial or forbidding therof not only as the Manichees some other heretikes haue forbiddeÌ„ it as a filthy vnlawful estate in it selfe with yet if your own report be true was Siritius opinion dist 82 is stil Gregory Martins discou ca. 11. but euen as the wisest of you defend now the denying of it to your cleargy vnder the preteÌ„ce of more holines in abstaining ther froÌ„ for a plaine doctrine of deuils For especially he speaketh of theÌ„ there that should in the later daies doe so in

deal with such an one as he had theÌ„ to approue his calling by miracles wheras ours in this is far more substaÌ„tiallie iustified by the scriptures froÌ„ wheÌ„ce our doctrine hath warraÌ„t that hath wrought this effect then it could haue by miracles For as wheÌ„ the law was first published with al the ceremonies therof it was needful because theÌ„ it was new that Moses credit the publisher therof the law it selfe should be coÌ„firmed by miracle but wheÌ„ in the raigne of Iosiah Hilkiah the priest fouÌ„d the booke of the law which had lien hid before a long time so did but reuiue or renue the same law that was before sufficiently confirmed by miracles he wrought no miracles neither was there any called for or looked for at his haÌ„ds for it was needles EueÌ„ so wheÌ„ the ceasing of the ceremonial seruice of the law was to end the new priesthood of Christ to come in place thereof so withal that then first it should be notified both to Iew and gentile who was and is the very person of the Messias what new gouernment sacraments he would haue in his house it was necessary that miracles should be wrought to confirme the ministry of theÌ„ that should teach these new strange thinges first vnto the world but now these things hauing bene already then sufficiently coÌ„firmed by miracles we comming in these later daies of the world and not taking vpon vs to preach any other doctrine then the former and so onely renuing and reuiuing the knowledge of that which by the ignoraunce and wickednes of former times had lyen in great part hid no more at our hands ought miracles to be looked for Indeede if it could be proued but once that we labour to set abroach a new doctrine as you often in wordes charge vs that neuer was before sufficiently confirmed by miracles or if the maner that we vsed to reuiue it by were any other but the ancient ordinary way that God hath alwaies allowed in his Church there were yet some colour of reason why they should bee thus called for at our handes But seeing wee stand vpon that point and haue alwaies done that our religion is the very same and no other that Christ and his Apostles taught which by them in their times was confirmed by miracles and the maner of our dealing to spread the same againe is but the ordinary ministerie of the worde and sacraments by them left for the same purpose vnto the church there is no reason at all in matching vs thus as you doe with Moses and in requiring miracles of vs as of him And vntill you can proue by the scriptures that the doctrine that we preach is false which you neuer shall be able to doe the three places which you cite out of Ieremie 14.27 29. vttered by him to admonish the people in his time to take heede of suffering of themselues to be seduced with the false and lying Prophets that were in those daies make nothing at all against vs nor yet appertaine to the matter in hand which was to proue that seeing we worke no miracles therefore our commission cannot be good in taking vpon vs to reforme you For in these places eueÌ„ by the words as they are set down by your selfe it most euidently appeares that he warned the people to take heede onely of such Prophets as prophecied falsly in the name of God hauing no vocation from him and labouring to seduce the people by false visions naughty diuinations southsayings and their owne dreames whereas we haue ordinary vocation from God preach nothing but trueth warranted by his word and neuer vse but alwaies abhor the vse of all these meanes that they vsed to seduce the people by But herein most certaine it is that the Lord most plainely forewarneth his people of such as you be For you be they indeede that were neuer sent of Christ but of Antichrist and that preach false doctrine as doeth appeare not only by the dissenting but by the contrariety of your doctrine in a number of points from the vndoubted word of God as I haue noted in sundrie places in this my answere to you and then whom neuer any false Prophets in the world more relied vpon false visions diuinations southsayings fond dreames for indeede they are the best most vsuall pillers grounds of your Popish doctrine For what is more common with you then to the ende these may haue place to complaine and by long rhetoricall discourses to make what shew you can of the obscurity vnsufficiency and vncertainty of the word writen that so with some colour you may shew the triall of your doctrine by that touchstone and all because in your owne consciences you know that it cannot be iustified thereby And then when thus you haue satisfied your selues in weakning what you may the credit of the scriptures to prepare a way for your selues to fly from them then you breake out into commendation of the word vnwriten traditions and liuely practise of the church that so by that window you may thrust in and out to the Church whatsoeuer pleaseth you be it neuer so fond a visioÌ„ diuination or dreame of your owne drowsy heads But yet once againe for lacke of miracles howsoeuer the case stand whither we be sent of God or no for your refusing to yeeld vnto vs you thinke you may pleade simplicity and ignorance for your excuse as Abimelech did Gen. 20. especially you say seeing you are willed not to beleeue euery spirit and seeing you reade that the Angell of darknes will sometime traÌ„sforme himselfe into the shape of an Angell of light c. But withall you must remember that you are willed to search the scriptures Iohn 5. so to trie the spirits whither they be of God or no 1. Ioh. 4. For they are able to make the maÌ„ of God wise to saluatioÌ„ thorowly to furnish him to all good workes 2. Tim. 3. which if you did as you ought thereby you shall be driuen to perceaue that not only our calling is of God but that also we teach the trueth according to the same and that therefore notwithstanding we worke no miracles yet your ignorance cannot be simple ignorance as Abimelechs was but either wilfull or of an idle peeuish negligence and therefore such as cannot excuse you in refusing to beleeue vs. And as it is writen that sathan will so transforme himselfe as you write and that we should take heede what way we take for there is a way that seemeth good and yet leadeth to destruction so you must remember that still the due consideration of the writen word is the meanes to preserue vs froÌ„ the daÌ„ger of both For thereby Christ hath taught vs to withstand him Mat. 4. euen when he would seeme to fortify his temptations with the word writen it selfe whereby else shall a young man learne to frame his waies aright but by taking heede thereunto according

to the same Psal 119. you must also remember that it is writeÌ„ Wo to him that calleth good euil Esa 5. striue to enter in at the streite gate Luk 13. Al this notwithstanding in your opinion we are like to a false merchant pretending to be the Princes seruant in his masters name demaÌ„ding mony of his debtters hauing neither his haÌ„d nor seale to warraÌ„t his demaÌ„d and all this you say would perswade to be true because we worke no miracles as the Apostles did I deny your argument for we haue our Lord masters hand and seale in his writen word in that therby our doctrin is taught as it appears therby is sealed both by miracles with the pretious bloud of our lord sauiour yea but say you if yee be the Apostles successours in preaching this doctrine why doe ye not confirme your doctrine with signes and wonders and say with the Apostle Paul 2. Corinth 12. the signes of our Apostleship haue beene accomplished amongst you with signes and miracles Hereunto I answere that then it was necessarie for them so to doe and yet now it is not likewise for vs because then for the newnesse and strangenes of diuerse things incident to their ministrie miracles for the first confirmation thereof for a time were necessary whereas now we taking vpon vs only to preach the same doctrine as we doe it being then thereby sufficiently confirmed it is needles now to confirme it againe thereby The XVIII Chapter YOu a And so we may still for any reason that you doe shew to the contrary doe answer vs as the Iewes were answered by Christ when they did demande him to shew some miracles * Mat. 12. The generation adulterous peruerse doeth demaund signes but no signe shal be giuen them c. But this comparison cannot bee applied vnto vs for we are not so hard of beliefe as the Iewes nor you such faithfull messengers of God as Christ was of whom the Iewes did demande some signes of obstinate hatred after they had seene so manie lame healed so manie blinde receiue their sight so manie deafe heare and so manie dispossest that had spirites but as for you b The power of our commission hath stretched so farre as to the harts griefe of al your Synagogue your Romish Babylon is so falne that ye eueÌ„ despaire of euer recouering the glorious pompe of your Babylonish harlot againe we haue seene your coÌ„mission not to haue extended so far as to restore a flie to life againe or to heale a lame goose although that greater matters are required to confirme so strange and so new a reformed Gospell These wordes doe make you mad crying out and preaching in euerie place that your church ought c We say and preach thus and we are well able to stand to it not to be called newe but rather that it is olde Apostolicall that your doctrine is the very same that S. Peter S. Paul did preach And to drawe the simple people to beleeue that that you say you doe declare your faith saying that you doe beleeue doe preach that there is one God in Trinitie of persons and the second which is our sauiour became man from the wombe of the virgin and that he suffered and did rise againe to be briefe you shew that you haue profited in your Religion for you haue beene but fortie yeares which is the time since it began in learning the great creede the Pater noster the which you could not learne in a thousand and fiue huÌ„dred of ours But in all this you say nothing to the purpose for we doe not demaÌ„de of you whether you can well your Catechisme d If we had had no better catechisers then you we should neuer aright haue vnderstoode either Creed the Lords praier or the coÌ„mandements the which you hauing learned of vs you teach to others And as Sampson saied Iud. 15. If you had not laboured with my cowe ye would neuer haue hit my riddle That is to saie that if that our Church had not nursed or taught you which are her rebellious children you would haue knowen nothing for it is of our Church that you haue learned the principles of your faith e Howsoeuer these had tâ—â—ir bringing vp and maintenance for a time amongst you they had their learning true knowledge no more froÌ„ you then Paul had of the Pharises She is the Cowe that hath nourished Caluin in a Canonrie of Noyon Theodore de Beza in the Priorie of Louinnam hard by Paris and consequentlie all the other ministers which haue learned all that they know at the conuent of S. Francis S. Dominick S. Augustine and of S. Bennet where ye were nourished spirituallie as touching your doctrine and temporallie as touching the mainteining of your studie at the charge of that church against the which ye doe now so striue f These others haue sought to be thankful to you for these things as Paul sought to be thankfull for the like to the Pharisees and Iews in seeking their reformation and conuersion as the camels which sometime reward their masters for their good keeping with yerking biting so that colour it how you list ye cannot deny but that ye set forth new deuises For although it is so that your heresies which to please the eares of the vnlearned yee call the reformed Gospell pure word of God haue beene in times past g This is but your spitefull vaine of popish railing without either trueth honesty or reasoÌ„ yet they were buried in the verie depth of hell you haue raised them againe cloked with new colours But although it were so that your doctrine were not new but verie olde h If either our office or errand were extraordinary you say somewhat but both being ordidinary there is no like reason that miracles should bee wrought by vs as by them yet ought not you to be more priuiledged then Moses and the Prophets whose simple and plaine wordes the world would not beleeue although they preached no new doctrine no more then you saie that you doe Moses did shew manie miracles in Egypt and why was the principall cause to deliuer the children of Israell out of the captiuitie of Pharao No surelie for to what purpose I praie you should God shew such great power and might against a simple worme of earth Is it like to be true that he should mooue the whole heauens with such great darkenesse * i Exod. 19. to sende so manie notable plagues to bring him to yeelde which had confessed his wickednesse for the torment that he suffered with the flies the frogs and Grashoppers Surelie no he himselfe doeth shew the cause it is to the end that my name be knowen ouer all the earth that is to saie that men should know that he is God If we come to the Apostles wee shall finde likewise that

not thought that he himselfe not onely might but had erred would he euer haue writeÌ„ as he did a booke of RetractioÌ„s or RecaÌ„tatioÌ„s And indeed in his 2 book 4. Chap. ad BonifaciuÌ„ against that 2. Epist of the PelagiaÌ„s it appeareth that he was of opinioÌ„ that of necessity childreÌ„ were to receiue the CoÌ„munion or els they could not be saued because it is writeÌ„ Ioh. 6. Except yee eat the flesh of the sonne of maÌ„ drinke his bloud yee haue no life in you and Pope Innocent and many of the fathers were of the same opinion then And yet I thinke now your selues holde this to bee an errour aswell as wee And who will read his fourth booke de animÃ¢ eius origine ad Vincentium and his prologue to his retractions he should there plainlie finde him confesse that there are manie things in his wordes worthilie to bee founde fault withall which he craueth that his reader would not cleaue vnto in any case but rather pardon and follow him non erraÌ„teÌ„ sed in melius proficientem not erring but better profiting Yea in the later place he saieth that he would not arrogate that perfection to himselfe then being old much lesse when hee was young not to erre And I thinke that you are not ignorant that Irenaeus and Papias were plaine Millenaries and that Cyprian a nuÌ„ber of bishops in his time in Affricke held in councel decreed that rebaptizatioÌ„ of those that had bene baptized by hereticks which both you and we count errors notwithstanding now Why therefore especially when the names and titles of councels or men are vrged to the preiudice of the trueth taught in the scriptures may we not say that which is true that they both might haue erred And thus you haue your answere first generally to your principall scope in these 4. or 5. last Chapters set downe togither because the drift of them was but al one and now also a further answere to the rest of the matters and words therein here and there scattered But yet you haue not quite done with this matter let vs therefore further follow you to see if you haue said any more to the purpose in that which is behinde then in that which we haue heard already The XXVII Chapter I Pray Syrs since you are so absolute answere me to this obiection a A vaine questioÌ„ for whoeuer of vs either saied or wrote so is it good to beleeue almaner of people that doe alleage the Scriptures or not If ye say yea why doe not you beleeue the aboue named Valentinus Apollinaris Hebion Cherintus and Nestorius with diuers others that haue sought to maintaine their errours with the new olde Testament If you saie no but that we ought rather to follow the counsell of S. Iohn in his first Epistle cap. 4. The which is not to beleeue euery spirit but that we ought to proue whether it be of God or no b Our proofe is that our senâ—e wherein we alleage them stands with the rest of the scriptures is according to the analogy of faith and good maners receiued to be the sence of ancient time and from time to time amongst the sound teachers in the Church What proofe wil you shew vs of yours Shewe the priuiledge that you haue by the vvhich God dieth enioine vs to beleeue your Gospel rather the the Gospell of the Pelagians Nouatians Nestorians and other such false Apostles considering that they haue alleaged the Scriptures aswel as you If you saie that they were heretickes abusers of the people and rauishing wolues cloathed in lambes skins and false interpreters of the Scriptures all this is certaine a The more haue they to answere for that report so for they can neuer proue it to be so But vvhat though the like report goeth of you Ye say that ye are sent from Cod to reforme the Church They saie as much b Which of hem I pray you seeing they liued before the B. of Rome beâ—ame Antichrist They preached that the Pope vvas Antichrist c Yea but the Church of Rome then and now are not al one shevving themselues verie eloquent in detracting and rayling against the Catholicke Roman Church you doe the like d You say so but you â—ay more then you can proue At euerie vvord they did alleage the Scriptures in their Sermons to confirme their doctrine as you doe for yours That that they preached was called by them the Gospel the pure vvorde of the Lord these are the verie tearmes that you vse among your holie prophetes they haue beene condemned as heretiques by the generall Councels e Not yet by any lawful and f ee geneâ—al councel was euer our religioÌ„ or any point of it condemned you are so likewise They did appeale vnto the pure vvord of God you doe the like Yet are they proued to be false f This iâ— flat dogs eloquence cogging knaues and so shal you Then seeing there is so great an vniformitie betvveene you vpon vvhat grounde g Vpon this that we are able to iustifie our alleaging of them to to be sound and catholicke which they are not shall vvee confirme that reason that shoulde condemne them as heretiques allow you for Catholicks h This question is rather meete to be proposed to you who haue learned of the Donatists to tye the Church to your popes sleue and to shut it vp within the narrow limits of his dominion S. Augustine in his Epistle 161. did put vnto a Donatist called Honoratus this probleme We desire thee not to thinke it much to answere vs to this what cause doest thou know or what thing hath there beene done that hath made Chirst loose his inheritance spred ouer all the world to coÌ„e to be contained onely in Affricke there onelie to remaine We put the like question to i Though your popish Church hath bene none of his â—nheritaÌ„ce a good while yet he hath had his inheritance alwaies and euer will haue and this we hold and teach and therefore your question is vâ—iâ—e friuolous and flaâ—â—eâ—ous Caluin Beza Viret the rest that it may please theÌ„ to tel vs if that by chauÌ„ce they haue bene aduertised through what occasion our Sauiour Christ hath lost his inheritaunce that is to say the Church spread ouer all the world to remaine now in the later daies with a coÌ„panie of rude Swizers or in two or three corners besides not among the rest for there is a great number of good Catholickes what badge caÌ„ you shew or what signe to make vs know that you are the successours of the Apostles of Christ If that the Scriptures that you alleage ought to be a sufficient proofe we are content to accept it k There as no need that we should doe so because we can proue that we alleadge them soundly they falsely corruptly if you will be content to grant

as you are and that hee suffered death to sustaine your Religion Then let vs see what good fruit this did produce vnto vs those that haue writen the stories of Boheme and among others d Your authour you know was a great papist and afterwardes a Pope therfore worthily he is to be suspected as a partiall reporter and yet cap. 35. before he is enforced to coÌ„fesse that the Senate had secretly murdered so many of those that called the Pope Antichrist that the bloud of theÌ„ running out of the gate bewraied it whereupon this and some other extremities followed Aeneas Siluius doe testifie that in the yeare of our Lorde God 1418. there was a certaine monke that became an Hussite in the citty of Prage which is the Metropolitane of that kingdome the which accompanied with a number of companions as zelous as himselfe they did execute so horrible a cruelty that eleuen of the principall magistrates were driuen to flye from the Citty to saue their liues and seuen more for in all they were 18. being taken by them they did cast them out at the windowes of their owne houses and did kill them with their speares as they fell This was done Sigismondus being then Emperour in the time of Martin the first Pope of Rome of that name Vneslaus being then king of Boheme The next yeare after the death of this saied Vneslaus they did spoile a This al is too much and more then either your authour or the euidence of the matter wil beate by far al the monasteries Abbeies and Churches of of the saied kingdome And among others one Iohn Zischa who was their captaine in the Cittie of Prage he made them all passe through the edge of the sworde without sparing man woman or childe And the like was done in another towne of the saied kingdome called Messim the yeare 1423. It were too tedious to write all their cruelties they did not care whither those of their coÌ„pany were of their sect or no b This is your slander for any thing that I can see in your author or any where else but indeed no pâ—ople sâ— barbarous but you caÌ„ finde in your hearts to vsâ— them against good Christians yea he hath bene a Pope of Rome that hath betraied a Christian Emperour into the hâ—ndâ— of the Turkes for so dealt Gregory 9. with the Emperâ—ur Fredericke witnes Caspinian for some were Idumeans some Palestines some Moabites and some other Amelecites euen as of your bountifull goodnesse ye call all those that will not be of your sect Papists Infidels Hypocrites Idolaters and therefore we may iustly saie that you are their right heares apparent although yee haue gone somewhat before them and as our sauiour saied accomplished the measures of your fathers by the heroicall acts that you haue done in this c You may wholy thanke your selues for the desolate estate of France almost desolate kingdome of France there needeth no other witnes to proue it but the testimonie of your owne eies and eares which haue hearde and seene more almost then any man can write Therefore I beseech you not to reproch any more the abuses of our ecclesiasticall ministers for although it be so that they haue neede of some reformation yet I doe thinke it is necessarie to choose some better staied persons then you are d If you may be iudge this wil easily be the sentence for you haue done more harme in fiue yeares then ours haue done in 1500. S. Augustine in the first booke of the cittie of God e Capite 1. you might haue added doeth magnifie in the Christians behalfe the diuine fauour of God for he doeth write that when the Gothes did destroie and spoile the citty of Rome the Romans although they were not Christians did retire themselues for their sauegard into the churches and Temples of the martyrs And the Gothes being but a barbarous nation had that respect to God that they neuer durst nor would enter into those holy places to doe them any displeasure f It is a wonder that yoâ— that haue so openly slaiâ—e thousands in Châ—rches since your most barbarous and faithles massacres of late in France began as it is notoriously knowen not yet beyond the memory of man in Merindall and Cabriers should yet bee so impudent to obiect this to vs as a fault which yet you haue not proued to haue beene committed by vs wherein you glory as a vertue You which make so great profession of the Gospell haue shewed your selues a great deale more cruell then those barbarous people for they did pardon all those that went to the Temples and you haue in manie places spoiled the churches and murdered al those that yee found in them so that one might well saie to you that that Optatus Myleuitanus in his booke con Parm. Donatist the which was that the Donatists ought to be content you likewise to haue wounded the members of the Church and to haue deuided the people of God f If you would haue learned this lesson it had beene well with vs. at the lest you should haue spared the alters and the teÌ„ples not to make warre against the stones The XXXV Chapter NOw in this you craue the keies to enter by into our garden to visite our trees that so you maie see the fruites of our religion hauing gotten in in your owne pleasant conceit after you had cast your eies about you and looked a while vpon our trees first you bid vs read all the stories since Christ and tell vs that so doing wee shal finde that all those sects that haue left your Romish Religion or Church haue done more mischiefe in one yeare being seperated from you then they did in an hundreth before Now doing as you will vs we finde indeed great hurt hath beene done by the ancient heretiques for the space of six hundred yeares that haue seperated themselues from the Roman Church that then was but withall we finde that our Church is farre liker that Church then your Roman Church that now is and since what hurt soeuer hath beene done by one or other that haue seperated themselues froÌ„ you though we challenge not communioÌ„ with euery one that hath so done your owne doings we finde in stories hath far exceeded theirs in al kinde of impiety Thus hauing in these general words set a good face vpoÌ„ it as though you could say very much of the bad fruites which you finde growing of our Religion you beginne at the yeare 1418 with the sturs in Bohemia laying to our charge the murdering of seuen magistrates of Prage by a certaine Monke and his companions sundry other things done by Iohn Zischa and his army in the time of those warres there then you lay to our charge also once againe al the troubles of late in France preferring vs for cruelty before the Goathes that conquered Rome and yet spared their Temples and those that

eare-shrist pardons but by their faithful preaching of the will of God sacraments ministring and vsing of the other censures in due time and place They haue a ministry of testification and declaration by the rule and light of the scriptures thorow the shining of Gods spirit in their hearts to assure them that rightly vnderstand them and beleeue them of that assuredly which God only doeth properly absolutely and principally But you seeme in thus alleadging of these places first so thinke that the power and authority the Christ here gaue his Apostles to binde and loose c. inuesteth them streight with power and authority to binde euery man to make vnto them your auricular confession whereas we neither read that any did so vnto them nor that they for all this euer exacted any such thing at any mans hands that they dealt withall and secondly you seeme to take the power giuen them and from theÌ„ deriued to other ministers here to be such that they properly and absolutely should haue power to pardon sinne c. which is absurd and blasphemous for you once but to imagine For so can none forgiue sinnes but God onely How can you say or thinke that a Priest properly or absolutely can absolue one of sinne seeing he may not so much as pronounce or declare a sinner to be pardoned of God vnles he be contrite penitent and faithfull indeede Now God onely and the party are priuy to this whither these thinges be sound and right in the heart or no for an hypocrite can make a shew to deceaue man withall in these you know vnles therfore we will thinke that we haue power to absolue him whom God yet condemneth our pronouncing of pardon or absolution to those that seeme such vnto vs must be but conditionall if they be such in deede as they make shew for and therefore neither is nor can it be proper or absolute Ambrose libro 3. de Spiritu Sancto ca. 19. by that of Iohn proues the godhead of the holy ghost for that he can and doeth forgiue sinnes which were no good argument if by that place Christ meant to giue ministers power and authority properly and absolutely to doe it vnles it be lawful to think that they are very Gods But marke I pray you your kinde of reasoning from these places Christ gaue to his Apostles power and authority giuing them the holy Ghost to bind and to forgiue sins ergo auricular confession before the sacrament thereby was enioynes this is your argument or else you saie nothing in all this for your selues against vs. For we deny not but most willingly confesse that by these places it is certaine that Christ gaue vnto his true ministers to whom he gaue the holy Ghost power and authority as ministers to doe this But what is this to authorize your priestes which are no ministers of his ordinance and to whom hee hath not giuen that spirit to doe this Or what is this if they had authority to doe it either to that which they take vpon them or to enforce a necessity of such auriculer confession as you practise and pleade for Herein it is with you as it is in other points of your religion you are deceaued and after seeke to abuse and deceaue others with the ambiguity and diuersity of acceptions of confession For that is a common tricke with you when you finde either in scripture or father that there is but the word mentioned that by any stretching maie reach to your meaning to alleadge that streight as flat full and pregnant for your purpose when as indeede if the circuÌ„staÌ„ces of the place he looked into it is as far from countenaÌ„cing your opinion as may be So in this case you finding in scripture some mention of confessioÌ„ of sinnes and sundry examples of the same and likewise in the fathers you finding that they exhort and perswade men to confesse their sinnes you by and by imagined that your auricular confession must needes be that that they speake of or at least your learning not suffering you so to imagin you contrary to your owne knowledge and conscience as it seemeth could be contented to doe what you could to make your Reader so to thinke Wherefore to arme him hereafter against your subtlety or the cunning of any of your fellowes in this point and so to giue him a triacle to preserue him from the danger of your popish poison in this case let him know and vnderstand that there haue beene and be many kinds of confessing of sinnes spoken of both in scriptures and fathers and yet you neuer the nearer for yours For Augustine de verbis Euangelii hom 8. very pretily according to his maner saieth that confession is tither laudis or fraudis that is of praise or of fraude by the former vnderstanding that kinde of confession whereby we thankfullie acknowledging what God hath beene or is vnto vs we burst forth into lauding and praysing his holy name therefore whereunto the faithfull seruants of God are oftentimes exhorted in the scriptures as for example Psalme 33. in these words confesse vnto the Lord in harpe and in a psaltery of ten strings sing vnto him And Dan. 3. in these confesse vnto the Lord that he is good and that his mercy is for euer which kinde of confession in our Churches we alwaies publickly vse both before and in the receiuing of the Sacrament which wee teach to be a Sacrament euen to prouoke vs so to doe for our free and full saluation purchased for vs by the death of Christ And the other is the generall to all kyndes and sortes of confession of sinnes which he tearmeth frawde because by all sinne God or man or both are wronged of that which is due vnto them Otherwise some distinguish confession into confession of fayth and confession of maners of the first whereof sayeth Christ Matthew the tenth hee that confesseth mee before men I will confesse him before my father which is in heauen and of this Saint Paul speaketh saying with the heart man beleeueth to righteousnesse but with the mouth confession is made to saluation and this is farre more playnely in vse with vs also then with you For in all our publicke assemblies ordinarily as it is wel knowen according to the three auncient Creedes in english that all present may vnderstande vs wee make confession of our faith And as for the later which is confession of our maners there is no kinde of so confessing taught and commended vnto vs either in the olde Testament or new either to God or man priuate or publicke but wee vse it allowe it and exhort one an other vnto it in farre better sort and maner then you doe Yea to go one step further with you there is no kynde of so confessing our faultes by the consent and vniforme practise of the auncient fathers approued vnto vs but therein also both before the receite of the Sacrament and at other times as

testimony that he might haue such school masters as I haue saied to teach him herein somwhat to fauor you to speake of your side Irenaeus in his first book 24. chapter testifieth of the heretique Carpocrates that he was a great admirer of philosophy insomuch that to the images he made of Christ and of some of his Apostles he ioyned the images of Pythagoras Plato and Aristotle of whom hee learned to imagine that there was a purifying place after this life and so to proue purgatory out of that place of Matthew as you hearde before Montanus Paraclet did And the heretiques Heracleones as Augustine wryteth of them vsed ouer their deade oyle balme water and inuocation in the Hebrewe tongue Hereunto ioyne you Virgils 6 book of his Aeneidos lying visions you haue the right scholemasters that haue taught you al that fauour you in this point But concerning the places in Tertullian which you quote we need not thus answere you for they are not so pregnant for you as you imagined For the words you ground on in the first place are these spoken by him to the wife to teach her how in this point to behaue her selfe towards her dead husband pro animÃ¢ eius oret refrigerium interim adpostulet ei in primÃ¢ resurrectione consortium offerat annuis diebus dormitionis eius that is let her pray for his soule and in the meane time desire refreshing for him and felowshippe in the first resurrection and let her offer alwaies when the yeare day commeth for his sleeping which are the words as Beatus Rhenanus confesseth that he hath so set downe acknowledging that he found it far otherwise in all examples before Againe not onely this obscurity of Tertullians wordes and the vncertainety what they were disableth this place from being of any force for you to ground vpon but also vnles you must haue it granted that euery womans husband to whom he gaue this counsel was in purgatorie wherof there is no ground at all in his wordes in that booke but rather the contrary whereby it should seeme that he spake of such as were gone before in peace to the Lord his words if they were these proue not your praying to relieue soules there And the offering that he lastly speaketh of was either the offering of thankes to God for his quiet rest and sleeping or an offering or giuing of almes to the poore in token of ioy for the same and to prouoke them to be thaÌ„keful therfore also as you heard me before note the fashion was when the tracts of Iob fathered vpon Origen were writen out of the third tract of the same and not as you woulde haue it taken an offering of your propitiatory sacrifice in your masse for his sinnes For hee saieth for his falling a sleepe and not for his sinnes and hee willeth the woman to offer and not that she should get the Priest to doe it And in answering of this place your other is also answered for there onely he saieth oblationes pro defunctis pro natalitiis annuÃ¢ die facimus that is wee offer oblations for the dead for their birth daies euery yeares day For in that he expresly saieth pro natalitiis for their birth daies it is euident that he cannot nor may not be vnderstood of any other oblation but of thankefulnesse and reioicing But this offering for their birth daies Beatus Rhenanus vpon this place in his notes saieth was heathenish and afterwards was condemned and abolished by the Nicene councell and others And yet for any thing that these words of Tertullian enforce in this place he speaketh of no other oblations for the dead but for their birth daies so that long ago the date and credit of this testimony and fashion was abrogated And lastly it is not to be forgotten that he himselfe within few lines after these words speaking of this fashion of sundry others that there also he had spoken of plainely confesseth that these thinges had no grounde in the scriptures but onely by tradition That which other of your fellowes alleadge to this purpose out of Tertullian in his exhortation to charity may receiue the same answere with these for it is euident that booke also was writen in his Montanisme for there hee is against second marriage as in the first and so against Paul Romans 7. 1. Cor. 7. and with Montanus and the words are no more pregnant to ground praier to relieue soules in purgatory then the former were Now next is Cyprian who was a bishop in that City wherein soÌ„etimes Tertullian had liued in him for your praier for the dead you would haue vs read his Epistle ad plebem Furnensem in his first booke I am sure you meane the ninth Epistle of that booke writen as it appeareth there ad plebem Furnilanorum though either you could not or would not to put your reader to a little more paines to seeke it out tell vs so much But hauing found it and read it howsoeuer you were perswaded of it we finde little or nothing there that can doe you any good for onely there of a decree made in some Africane Synode before his time he groundeth his perswasion to that people forasmuch as one Victor had contrary to that decree made one Heminius Faustinus minister executour of his wil and testament therefore to stay others from daring any more so to violate that decree to the calling away the ministers from attendance of their ministry that they should execute that decree against that their brother Victor departed which was that for this cause there should be no offering for him nor sacrifice for his falling a sleepe For saieth he he is not worthy to be named in the praier of the Priest that wil so cal away the ministers or Priests from the altar therefore seeing this is Victors fault let there be no oblatioÌ„ with you for his sleeping nor in his name any deprecatioÌ„ frequeÌ„ted in the Church Doe you thinke in good earnest Master Albine that if Cyprian had thought that his brother Victors soule had bene in such paines in purgatory as you teach are there and that these were the ordinarie meanes to ease soules there that for so small a matter as this the breaking of this positiue law which with you is vsually broken if in your sence these things were to be vnderstoode of oblation sacrifice and praier for the ease of the party so departed from vnder the punishment vpon him for his sinnes that Cyprian either might lawfully could without too too much cruelty or would so without all mercy and charity perswade to depriue a brother departed of these things You cannot be so without reason as once to thinke so The execution of this Canon against Victor was but onely a note of some disgrace ignominy laied vpon him the better to make others after to regarde that Canon and not any denying of his soule any thing so necessary

contrariety betwixt the saied two bookes themselues by the authours crauing to be borne withall and by his seeming to iustify in those bookes coÌ„trary to the Canonicall scriptures indeede sundry things Secondly let any maÌ„ read 1. Mach. 7. 12. the 2.4.3 and 13. and he shall thereby most plainely see that in those times whereof those bookes containe the story there were wonderfull grosse corruptions directly contrary to the lawe of God crept in amongst the Iewes from the Gentiles and yet securely practised of them Thirdly this is to be considered that neither Iosephus writing the whole story of the Machabees nor yet the fift Chapter of the first booke where the same story is handled maketh any mention of this fact of Iudas Fourthly if we looke to his fact indeede as the authour setteth it forth in Greeke we shall finde that the trueth thereof was and is onely this that he finding two thousand slaine that tooke vpon them of their owne heads to fight with the Iannites without commandement of their Captaine of an ambitious minde to get themselues a name that vnder their garments they had things hid consecrated to the Gods of the Iannites euery man then seeing that that was the cause they were slaine therupon first hauing called his people together he exhorted them by that example to keepe themselues from sinne and to giue glory to the Lord for his righteous iudgement executed vpon them and to pray that the rest perished not for that their sinne be like hauing in remembrance the story of Achan Iosua 6. And this thus according to his exhortation done he made a collectioÌ„ of two thousand drachmaes sent them to Hierusalem to offer a sinne offering which if he did to appease the Lordes wrath that it should not burst out to the hurt of the rest as it did against the Israelites at the besiege of Ai Iosua the seueÌ„th for the like sinne in Achan as it may be hee did hitherto hee did but well and with warrant from the twenty one of Deutronomie and seuenth of Iosua but here he staied not but as it appeareth by the authours owne wordes ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ discoursing with himselfe of the resurrection hee prayed for the dead and sought to make reconciliation for their sinne that so they might haue their part in the resurrection of the godlie for whom very godly hee thought that there was great hope layed vp But if hee had remembred that hee had neither commandemeÌ„t example nor promise in Gods booke thus to encourage him to doe and that the Lord had saied You shall not doe euerie one that which seemeth good in his owne eies but that which I commaund thee that onely doe thou shalt adde nothing thereunto nor take ought there from Deut 12. he should not haue followed his owne discourse imagination thus to haue done without all warraÌ„t from the word of the Lorde In many places of the olde testament he might haue remembred that of purpose the solemnity of burials are spokeÌ„ of yet that neuer there is any mention either of any such thing coÌ„manded there to be done or remeÌ„bred to haue beene done yea that Tobias the elder though there be much saied of him to his commendation in burial of the dead in his history that yet there is not any mention of any such thing done by him And it is worth the noting that from the time of Iudas Machabeus it caÌ„not be proued by any story after vntil now of very late daies that any such thing was by any godly man attempted againe Further yet how can this serue to breed any credit to popish praying or sacrificing for the dead in purgatory seeing the papists theÌ„selues confesse that there was no purgatory before the comming of Christ that they that die in deadly sinne as it appeareth by the story these did go not at all thither but streight to hell Lastly for any thing I can see in the authours words thorowly considered it may be saied for his credit that he sheweth that Iudas Machabeus did thus that he did very well honestly to thinke hope of the resurrection very godly to be perswaded that then it should be very well with those that died godly but that vpon these cogitations he did thus for these he doeth not at all iustifie him but rather shew that therein he followed his owne reason and discourse And this being thus all the strength of this place is lost For an historiographer may and doeth set downe often aswell the faults as commendable things of famous meÌ„ that they write of Wherefore to coÌ„clude this point for all this it remaineth firme and sound that I saied before they can neither by scripture nor any sound ancient writer approue their sacrificing offering or praying for the reliefe of soules in purgatorie Wherefore to go on now we are come to examine OrigeÌ„s testimonies which are two onely here cyted for prayer for the dead by Albine namely his 12 Homily vpon Ieremy and his 8. booke vpon the Romans cap. 11. in which places let them be read neuer so often there shal not be fouÌ„d so much as meÌ„tion of prayers for the dead indeede in both of them there is some mention of a purging fire but as I haue shewed before in the first entrance into this point when I repeated the words of the authour in these places none at all of the popish purgatorie For in the first he speaketh of that fire that must consume our hay woode and stubble which hee telleth vs is God who is a consuming fire of such things and in the other he speaketh expresly of the fire and torments of hell wherein saieth he he that would not be purged by the Euangelicall and Apostolique doctrine reserueth himselfe to be purified Thus thou maiest see good reader that which I admonished thee of before how they proue praying for the deade by mention of a purging fire though it be mentioned neuer so diuersly and farre from their sence as in these two places it is most euident it is whereby thou maiest see how with out all conscience they seeke to abuse thee with fond reasons and ambiguity of words Belike though the Scripture saie in hell there is no redemption yet Master Albine beleeues by his alleadging the later of these places Damascenes tale of Gregories getting Traians soule out of hell by praier and that Saint Frauncis and others also haue done and now can doe the like or at least that he and his fellowes haue beene fowely deceiued that before now made it a distinct place from hell In earnest let them take heede whom they haue perswaded hitherto doe hereafter that they go but thither and that they so they will take order they may be well paide for it will helpe them to ease there and out in the ende that they finde not indeede the popish purgatorie they dreamt of in the ende to proue nothing else but the fire

and torments of hell it selfe that Origen speaketh of But to haste to an ende of this point Chrysostome and Augustine are yet behind it may be these speake something more directly to the purpose it cannot bee denied they doe but the more a great deale was their weakenesse and fault and neuerthelesse yours euen where it was Chrysostome is alleadged onely in his third homily vpon the epistle to the Philippians where speaking as it is euideÌ„t by his words of such as die in their sinnes and infidelity so that they go to hell where saieth he peccata exuere non licet that is they cannot put of their sinnes he exhorteth their frends aliue to mourne bitterly for such because they are with the damned all the daies of their life that so the better they may take heede of the like sinne so yet to shewe their loue and in the ende addeth defleamus istos iuuemê° eos pro viribus c. let vs mourne for these let vs to our power helpe these let vs procure theÌ„ some helpe little indeed yet let vs helpe theÌ„ How what way praying for theÌ„ let vs exhort also others to pray for theÌ„ wtout ceasing let vs giue almes for them Habet res ista noÌ„nihil coÌ„solationis this thing hath some coÌ„solatioÌ„ c. What is this to the great vnspeakeable good that you faÌ„sie coÌ„meth by your praiers and almes giuing for the dead Yea I wonder how you are not ashamed to quote vs this place for your praying for the dead seeing you your selues as iustly you may condemne as not onely fruitles but as quite vnlawful all praying and giuing of almes for such as hee speaketh of But you will saie that going on in the same place ere hee haue done he goeth further and saieth that in the celebratioÌ„ of the diuine mysteries it was not in vain decreed of the Apostles that ther should a memory be made of the departed hence they know that great good would grow vtno them hereby and how can it be but that all the people and Priests praying and lifting vp their hands to heauen and the reuerend sacrament laied there but that we should pacifie God praying for these but that which we say now we speake of them that departed hence in the faith I graunt these words there follow but yet the most that these words proue is that he thought the commemoration of the dead was instituted by the Apostles and that the doing thereof at the celebration of the Lords Supper would be very accceptable vnto God and doe them some good But in all this if you vnderstand him aright here is nothing saied for your praying for the ease of soules in purgatory For as before he spake of those that were in hel in the state of damnation so he speaketh this of those that were in the state of saluation already with Christ their king in a blessed estate and that departed hence in sure faith thereof as his owne words entring into this matter and concluding the same make it manifest For all that he speaketh of that die or are dead he deuideth onely into these two sortes hauing first taught what is to be done for the wicked vnfaithfull daÌ„ned ones then he coÌ„meth sheweth thus what is to be done for the other And therfore eueÌ„ by your own receiued doctrine speaking but of these you can vnderstaÌ„d him but of a thaÌ„keful coÌ„memoration of such in their praiers But suppose he made an other distribution of the dead into bad good and meane as you doe and that he spake these words of the meane in your sence what reason is there why you should binde vs to allow of his opinion in this and that you your selues will not allow neither of that which he taught before to be done for the damned nor of that which immediatly after these words he setteth downe of those that die being yet but catechumeni that is but learners of the catechism whoÌ„ he saith they barred of this comfort and left altogither destitute of all helpe but of one that is that almes might be giuen in their name wherby some refreshing might come vnto them whereas you saie that Ambrose did well in praying for Gratian who yet died vnbaptized Yet this you will say is somewhat that he fathereth the coÌ„memoratioÌ„ of the dead that he speaketh of vpon a decree of the Apostles I graunt it is somwhat more then you haue heard his ancient Tertullian hath done or any other before him yet be it somwhat or more you are neither somwhat nor any more nearer your purpose then you were in the beginning But to conclude with him though he 20 more such as he should neuer so often tel vs that it was decreed by the Apostles that in the celebratioÌ„ of the diuine mysteries there should such memorial or remeÌ„braÌ„ce be made of the dead they must pardoÌ„ vs if we beleeue theÌ„ not For if they would be beleeued indeede in so saying wee haue learned to say vnto theÌ„ as Aug. saied vnto such as in his time vnder such colours troubled the Church with their own fancies legite hoc nobis de lege c. Read vs it theÌ„ out of the law the prophets psalms gospel or writings of the Apostles that we may beleeue it De vnit eccles ca. 6. For euen of Chrysost himselfe we are taught so to reuerence these canonical scriptures for their sufficiency that he that cannot proue that which he saieth therby but coÌ„meth in some other way not graunted him he is a theefe hom 58. in Iohan. And therfore he is not to thinke much if we refuse to credit him in this which he can neuer proue to be as he saieth by any souÌ„d proofe either out of the scripture or else where Thus therfore to dismisse him let vs see last of al what is brought vs out of Augustine to this purpose Out of him three places are cited the first is out of his 2 booke de Genesi against the Manichees cap. 20. where there is not a word spoken of praying for the dead onely there saieth he speaking of such as haue not whiles they were here wel tilled their field but let it be ouergrowen or oppressed with thornes that such after this life shal either haue the purging fire or eternal paine by which purging fire what he vnderstandeth it is hard to gesse hee had so manie variable opinions thereof as I haue shewed before and therfore hence no good argument can be drawen to proue that he allowed the popish purgatory I am sure they are not so in loue with this place that to proue their purgatory hence they will now teach that such as he speaketh of shall go thither For how coulde he haue described the worst sort of men more liuely then he doeth those that he speaketh of For is not he an extreame bad one that hath so neglected here the field of his minde that he carieth it

wee onely are saued or they al condemned For I haue shewed how a nuÌ„ber yea infinite numbers of them might be saued this notwithstanding As for your iudgement that they neuer erred so much as our disciples it is not material For you are no competent iudge in this matter And the reason of your iudgement that we condemne the faith that the Catholique Church hath held this 1500. yeares and maintaine the olde rotten condemned heresies is a thing which by begging after this sort at our hands though therein you be neuer so impudent and shamelesse a begger as that way in this your book your greatest skill hath appeared you shall neuer get And therefore set your hearts at rest your words though they be neuer so lowde stout shall neuer make vs yeelde you this for an almes You must therefore proue your words true and so make vnto vs euident demonstration thereof which you shall neuer be able to doe before we may yeeld vnto you that you haue any right at all to this The XXXIX Chapter IF that by a good and a right title your disciples cal themselues the children of God this maketh me beleeue that the saying of our Sauiour is fulfilled in them the which is * Luc. 16. The childreÌ„ of this world are wiser in their generation then the children of light To proue this true wee see this dailie experience for a wise worldly man when he doeth put out his money to gaine he vvill not trust the promise so soone of one or two or three as hee vvill doe the bondes of a vvhole Towne or Cittie that should warrant or assure his gaine But you nor your disciples haue not done thus but rather the contrarie It had beene better for you to haue first put your faith and trust in God beleeuing that he hath giuen his holie spirit and declared the meaning as touching the Scriptures vnto the Catholique Church a We build not our faith religion or hope of saluatioÌ„ of these meÌ„s credits but vpoÌ„ the credit of the vndoubted worde of God set down in the scriptures which is for credit to be preferred before the credit of all men speaking beside or contrary vnto them and not to hazard the hope of your saluation putting it into the hands of Luther Zuinglius Oecolampadius and three or foure other such pelting merchantes vvhich haue newlie set vp shoppes at Wittemberge Geneua Losane vvhich one of these daies we shal see bankeroutes as their predecessours haue beene before them the vvhich after that they had deceiued the poore simple Catholiques b Beware of dogs Phil. 3. ergo take heed of this Romish barker the best is hee is but one that barketh to bite hurt he hath small or no power and gained some of their soules for the deuill they haue at the last sold al their honestie and credit so that at this daie except that it be those that reade the ancient histories no bodie else doeth remember that euer they liued in the world You are come now last of all to make vp their merchandise but your credit can hardlie be good before God c Will you neuer haue done with this bare vaine brag Shew this but once to bee true and then we yeelde and then brag and spare not for you shall haue against you all the ancient Catholicke Church which hath continued visible since the comming of Christ vnto this day all the Doctours of all the vniuersities all the Empires Kingdomes and priuate state thoroughout al the worlde which haue receiued and honoured this doctrine that you call Papisticall And if you saie that you will not trust meÌ„ but the verie word of the Lord we agree to the like that we ought al to beleeue the Scripture but we varie about the interpretation for you interpret it after one sort and we after another you expound it after a new sort and the Catholicke Church doeth follovv d When it commeth to the trial it will be found that our interpretation rather then yours hath continuance froÌ„ all the sound ancient Doctours and the vndoubted Apostolicall â—raditions the olde exposition of the ancient Doctours traditions which you haue forsaken or to saie the trueth your Ministers haue led the sheepe astraie froÌ„ the old flocke at the departing froÌ„ the which they haue beene al scattered abroad some following Luther some Caluin some the Anabaptists so forth for the which the Popes kings others that haue had the gouernment of the Church shall answere at the last daie of iudgement for as much as while e Ergo you haue had sleepy Popes they slept you haue come sowedweeds among the good corne Then seeing you are the sheepe that rome astraie what excuse can they make before God that wilfully follow your steps We confesse that we are the poore sheepe of God that haue continued with our old flocke stedfast whole as touching our religion but very weake and sickely f Amend them for shame as touching our maners that is to say g But your wounds sores sicknes is grown so desperat that you will account none such but them that wil tel you you are sound and in health where you are most sicke full of sins vices attending some sage phisitions to heale vs good pastors to keepe vs casting out the chaffe froÌ„ the corne I meane cutting off those abuses that are offensiue not to such scrupulous consciences as you haue but vnto him that doeth threaten theÌ„ for the carelesse liues of their sheepe so to continue in that h Proue this once some of you or else for shame neuer say it almost in euery leafe for lack of matter as you doe ancient faith that by succession of pastours we haue receiued from the Apostles The XXXIX Chapter In this Chapter there is nothing but your old great words stout begging the maine questioÌ„ that your Church is the true ancient Catholicke Church that al the ChristiaÌ„s great small since Christ haue bene flat on your side that you are the only men that follow the sound sence of the scriptures deliuered vnto you by the ancient doctors and true pastors of the Church that we are but two or three in coÌ„parison of you sprung vp yesterday such as you prophesie wil shortly grow banckerout both of credit and honesty This bladder ful of nothing but winde is sufficiently I hope prickt and let out already by that which I haue saied in sundry places before Howsoeuer I hope the reader is not so simple as that seeing in you neuer so great store of these swelling wordes as long as he knoweth your aduersaries denie them as stoutly of the other side and he seeth you bring nothing but bare wordes without proofe he wil any whit be mooued therewith And yet as not able a discourse as this booke of yours is accounted the greatest stuffing that it hath is onelie

as the Iewes had beene for not receiuing of our sauiour Christ e It was expresly prophecied that wheÌ„ the Messias should come he should worke such works and therefore it was necessary that he should work them and herein he had priuilege and prerogatiue beyond all men the like is not prophecied that preachers of the gospel should do alwaies therfore this is required at our hands without all reason And yet therefore we haue not more priuiledge but lesse theÌ„ Christ if he had not done so manie miracles For we know no cause why you should be more priuiledged then Christ And seeing that you haue shewed nothing to verify it this waie and that the Scriptures make no mention of your vocation nor you shewe no miracles that your liues are at the least as ill as ours f Thus to threateÌ„ you we may boldly without shame because we are able to proue our doctrine by the scriptures to be the same that Christ taught and confirmed with his miracles what moues you to be so bolde and so vnshamefaced as to threaten vs with eternall damnation if we receiue not your hereticall doctrine the which is so full of discords and diuisions that one maie easilie gather by this from whence it came and whither it doeth leade one although yee haue nothing in your mouthes but the Gospell and the word of the Lorde And as g Whoso reads that tract of Augustine shall finde the Manichees to whom he speaketh farre likeâ— you then vs. S. Augustine saied vnto your semblables Sola personat apud vos veritatis pollicitatio h I would you would go on with Augustine and saie if that be found with you it is more worth then al the rest and that you would be contented to try that by the scriptures as he was and then you would sure so many of you as haue any grace quickly ioyne with vs. I saie no more at this time but that I beseech God to drawe you as neere to vs as you are farre from vs and to inspire your mindes to turne to the flocke of Christ the which both to your owne harme and ours you haue forsaken The XLII Chapter THere is no question of that but that euery one is to begin first to reforme himselfe and the Lord giue both vs and you grace effectually so to doe But if neither side should call vpon the other for reformation vntill the one side were growen wholy cleare of sinne you know well enough that then they must neuer doe it For what company and society of men euer was there but therein was some bad as well as good As Adam had an Abel so had he a Caine. There was an Ismael as well as an Isaac in Abrahams house And Isaac had an Esau as well as a Iacob Amongst the eight that were saued in the Arke there was a Cham. In the foure that left Sodom one that looked backe And amongst Christs 12. Apostles there was a Iudas Yea Christ hath taught vs by the parable of the good seede and tares Math. 13. that we are to expect no other in Gods owne field but that euen vnto the haruest there wil be a mixture alwaies of bad with good But you charge vs further that amongst vs there are many kinde of vsuries and interests and that though one way we care not for your images yet we loue them so well an other way that we haue robbed your churches of them Whereunto my answere is that we caÌ„not deny but there are too many amongst vs who by such vnlawfull meanes seeke to enrich theÌ„selues and that there are too too many profane and carnall men that haue our religioÌ„ in their mouthes who by their lewd conuersation dishonour the glorious gospell of Iesus Christ we are most hartely sory for it and dayly pray vnto God for amendmeÌ„t thereof But this we must tell you that we preach against al sinne impiety whatsoeuer and namely against vsury and al tumultuous and disorderly spoiling of churches of such thinges as you talke of And our Religion and the lawes in our common weale condemne and disalow such dealing therefore we are wronged that in these things we generally or our religioÌ„ at al should be charged Surely many of our vsurers extreame dealing men amongst vs are either men of no Religion or yours rather then ours neither doe I thinke where your Religion is in greatest credit that in those common weales vsury lieth dead and buried Sure I am your Popes haue beene for a long time the cunningest and vnreasonablest vsurers in the whole world in that they haue sold their palles their lead and other their hallowed ware which are indeede trifles and thinges of no valewe for such summes of money and gold as they haue You flatly slaunder vs in saying that there are some of vs that affirme we are wholy without spot or sinne For we both detest that opinion and count them that should holde so euen worthy to be detested for their so holding Yet you say if it were so that ought not to moue you to leaue your religion taught you by your forefathers What a sound ground of Religion forefathers without distinction is I haue shewed sufficiently already In which point I would alwaies haue the Christian to learne to distinguish betwixt the olde and ancient forefathers the Apostles and their successours in doctrine and life in the primitiue church and the later forefathers and neuer to thinke the latter worthy following any further then they haue followed the former and then the danger of this dart is auoided And that it is reason we should follow them no further we may learne in that Paul himselfe 1. Cor. 11. requireth no further to be followed then he followed Christ But you haue a further reason not to be moued from your Religion for our life were it neuer so Godly because Christ though he was without sin and confirmed his doctrine both by the ancieÌ„t scriptures and Iohn Baptists testimony yet he saied that if he had not done in their presence the workes and miracles that neuer maÌ„ did before him they had had no sinne Iohn 15.24 For hereof you gather that you may securely whatsoeuer we say vnto you or howsoeuer we liue refuse vs and our Religion and continue in your owne still as long as we proue not the lawfulnes of our vocation and the goodnes of our Religion by miracles For you know no cause you say why we should be more priuiledged then Christ This argument you vrged before cap. 30. and there I answered it Where I haue shewed you amoÌ„gst diuers other reasons that there was this especiall reasoÌ„ that Christ should worke such miracles as he did to proue himselfe the Messias because expressely the Prophets had prophecied that he so should when he came which reason you cannot shew why now wee should work miracles For the Prophecies that were giuen forth by Paul 2. Thess 2.

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