by Usage or Allowance that 's denied Nay the Impossibility is manifest For I conceive by Law the King cannot make an Estate for if he could he might make a fourth a fifth or a sixth Estate and require consent from them all to the making any Law which would alter the Frame of the Government Mr. Prin hath very well proved them to be only a third Estate in Convocation from the manner of penning their Grants there to wit By the name of Prelates and Clergy of the Province of Canterbury and York orderly assembled in a Provincial Synod or Convocation may be ratified and confirmed in your Highness's Courn of Parliament with the Assent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal not Prelates and Clergy as in their Grant Prin. fourth part of his Kalender p. 594 595. to these I might add many more Authorities Caudrey's Case Cook part 5. p. 8. Clerus tota Gens Laicalis but these eare enough and I take it a full Answer to his several Records urged to that purpose and for Explanation of the Author of the Letter who when he saith they are a third Estate of the Kingdom not of the Parliament that is to say not in that House of Parliament where they sit mixt with the Temporal Lords But should I admit them a third Estate in the Lords House as this Author and others contend they are and so a distinct Estate from the Lay-Lords What colour can they then have to judg a Peer upon an Impeachment for Life when themselves tho they sit among them are a distinct Estate from them and so no way their Peers which I take to be a very strong Argument ad Hominem I have thus past his first Assertion and given Answer to his Conceit of their being a third Estate in the Lords House if by it he mean an intire third Estate and not a part of it as I said before For when they act in Convocation they act with the rest of the Clergy as an intire third Estate can they that is the Bishops in the Lords House be more than part of a third Estate where they vote not as Bishops but as Barons as themselves would have it Certainly we must not shut out the Convocation to represent the Clergy if then the Bishops in Convocation represent but a part of the Clergy how they should be an intire Representative of them in another place whilst both are in being is to me a Riddle Let us now come to his argumentative part After he hath climbed a Ladder of five Steps he comes at last to this Conclusion That to sit in Iudgment with the Lords is not against Magna Charta What if this shall be granted him Doth it thence follow that they are such Peers as are enabled to try those in Capital Cases who are enobled in Blood and have inheritable Baronies in themselves by Creation Magna Charta is a general Charter which directs the Proceedings in the Tryal of all men by their Peers Who are Peers to one another is not there the Question neither doth the Author of the discourse of Peerage make any other use of it The ancient Canons forbid them to meddle at all in secular Affairs if therefore the Indulgence of Kings have admitted their Presence in Parliaments in some Cases doth it thence follow that they have Right to be there in all Cases or to try Peers for their Lives to whom they are no way equal The Author proceeds and in the next place insists upon the Forms of their Writs which are of the same kind with those of the other Barons which being not limited nor restrained neither ought their Power so to be The Weakness of this Argument is very apparent for by this he may infer that the Judges and some others had the same Right for Mr. Elsing in his Modus pag. 11. hath observed that the Writs were alike to the Lords to the Judges and some others in diverse years of Ed. 1. in most of Ed. 2. and many of Ed. 3. But the Words of these Writs though general were to be interpreted by the Practise of the Court and not contrarily Again there is a great deal of difference between giving Counsel in difficult matters according to their Writ and trying Men for their Lives an Employment no way proper for Messengers of Peace and Preachers of glad Tidings Lastly the Earls and Barons are Consiliarii nati Counsellors by their Birth and so have a natural Right to give Counsel in all Affairs being once assembled in Parliament and for that Reason upon the Death of the King the Nobilitas Major have all equal Right to meet in Council in order to a Successor so have not the Bishops nay though Privy Counsellors their Commission ceasing they have then no Right to come into Council with the other Lords In the next place he saith Men as certainly dye by Bills of Attainder where the Bishops have an undoubted Right to vote in their Legislative Capacity and therefore to vote in Cases of Blood is not incompatible with their Function To this I answer the Cases are very different as well to the matter of the Law as the Reason of it For first Custom or whoever gave them Right to sit in the Lords House in the Nature or amongst the temporal Barons though Ecclesiastical Persons did not restrain them as to their Concurrence in the making new Laws yet very well might as to their judging in some Laws already made so that the one is agreeable to the Laws of the Kingdom and the Laws of Parliament and the other not so And if any thing in that Particular had been contrary to the Holiness of their Calling or their Rules of Living it had been fit for them to have informed the King and Lords and not for them to take notice of it otherwise Nay in that very Case when that Bill shall come to be passed into a Law by the King the Lords Spiritual ought to absent themselves as it was held by Mr. Bagshaw a Reader of the Middle-Temple in the time of Arch-bishop Laud by whose Power he was then prohibited from farther Proceedings in his said Lectures Rush. Hist. Collect. part 2. pag. 990. Secondly the passing a new Law be it what it will doth not immediately but by Consequence may concern Blood Now the Bishops who are always supposed to incline to Mercy rather than Severity may perpetually with a good Conscience hinder the passing such a Bill as shall punish a Delinquent with Death who had not capitally offended before But when once a Man is capitally impeached for transgressing a known Law and Issue joyned thereupon 't is not now in their Power with a good Conscience to acquit the Guilty because they must there opine according to the Proofs before them which is a very strong Argument why they might be permitted to be present in the one Case and not in the other Lastly if this way of arguing
I say that if the Bishops did joyn in the Judgement it would have been so expressed and they would have been first named otherwise it is like an Et caetera in the beginning of an Enumeration which in the close and after an enumeration of some particulars may intimate a joyning of some others that are not particularly specified and named but is never put in the beginning And I think I may with confidence affirm That there is no example in all the Rolls of Parliament that any of the Benches of the House of Lords hath been particularly mentioned in any business and if the Prelates did likewise act in it that they were not also particularly mentioned and always in the first place nay before any other even before the Prince of Wales and the Princes of the Blood as may be seen in the Roll 28 E. 5. upon Roger of Wygmore's Petition the Record saith Le Roy â—…st venir devant lui les Prelatz Edward son fitz eisne Prince de Gales Henri Duc de Lancastre Countes Barons Piers le Iugement c. The King caused to be brought before him and the Prelates and Edward Prince of Wales his eldest Son and Henry Duke of Lancaster and the Earls Barons and Peers the Iudgement c. Now is it probable or can it be believed that the Decorum concerning the Bishops being in those times still so punctually observed and that respect always given to the Prelacy whenever they were concerned to mention them particularly and in their due place that they would in that Parliament of E. 3. be content to be comprized under a general notion and pass as a man may say Incognito when others have more respect shewed them to have their names recorded I do not think that the Clerk of the Parliament durst have been guilty of so great a disrespect to them Therefore we may well conclude that in this Judgement upon Mautravers the Prelates were not at all signified under the general word of Trestouz les Piers Countes Barons All the Peers Earls and Barons nor were they at all present or had any part in that Tryal no more than in that of Roger de Mortimer Earl of March The other persons judged that Parliament had all the same Judges and passed under the same Judicature The Record for Boeges de Bayons and John Deuerell is Item tieu Iugement est assentiez accorde que soit fait de Boeges de Bayons John Deuerell pur la cause susâ—…ite c. Item The same Judgement was agreed to and accorded to be given upon Boeges de Bayons and John Deuerell for the cause aforesaid c. The very same words are likewise for the Judgements upon Thomas de Gurney and William de Ocle And to prove it more authentically that they were all Ejusdem farinae of one and the same nature I will give you the Kings Writ that declares them to be so to the Lord Treasurer and Barons of the Exchequer commanding them so to inroll those Judgements and with them a kind of Protestation made by those Peers stiled a Concordia ne trahatur in Consequentiam An Agreement that it should not be drawn into Consequence That is Not made a Precedent to oblige and compel them to judge hereafter any but their Peers because of the Judgement they had then given against Sir Simon de Bereford John Mautravers and the rest who were Commoners For as for those who were their Peers they could not avoid the Trying of them particularly in Parliament where only a Peer of the Realm can be tryed in Parliament time which hath ever been the priviledge of the Peers and from which I shall in due time and place before I make an end draw I think an Argument not to be answered that the Bishops are not Peers for if they be Peers and questioned in Parliament time they must be Tryed in Parliament But 4 E. 3. Stephen Bishop of London having been complained of in Parliament for saying That if Edward the Second were still alive as he was informed that he was and in Corfe-Castle he would assist him with all his force to re-establish him in his Throne was by the Parliament referred for his Tryal to the Kings Counsel and by them to the Kings-Bench where putting himself super Patriam to be Tryed as all Commoners do a Jury was empannelled and the Tryal went on there in the Kings-Bench till at last he got the Kings Pardon This is Term. Pasc. 4 E. 3. rot 53. Now had the Bishop been truly and really a Peer of the Realm neither could the House of Peers have avoided the Trying of him themselves nor would he have submitted to a Tryal elsewhere out of Parliament the Parliament being once possessed of his Cause But this is by the by the Writ for inrolling those Judgements and the Concordia is In Memor and. Scaccarii inter Brevia directa Baronibus de Termino Sancti Hillarii Rot. 33. 5 E. 3. In these words Rex Thes. Baronib suis salutem Bittimus vobis sub pede Sigilli nostri quaedam Iudicia in Parliamento nostro apud Westmon nuper tento per Comites Barones at alios Pares regni nostri super Rogerum de Mortuo Mari quosdam alios reddita nec non quandam Concordiam per nos Pares praedictos nec non Communitatem Regni nostri in eodem Parliamento factam super praemissis Mandantes quod Iudicia Concordiam praedicta in Scaccario nostro praedicto coram vobis legi publicari ibidem seriatim irrotulari de caetero ibidem obserâ—…ari faciatis Teste me ipso apud Wyndesor 15. die Februarii Anno regni nostri 5. Per ipsum Regem Concilium The King to the Treasurer and Barons greeting We send you under our Seal certain Judgements given in our Parliament late at Westminster by the Earls Barons and other Peers of our Realm upon Roger of Mortimer and some others also an Agreement made in the same Parliament by Our Selves the foresaid Peers and the whole Commonaliy concerning the matters aforesaid commanding you that the said Judgements and Agreement you cause to be read in your presence in our Court of the Exchequer and there to be enrolled in course and duly observed Given under our Test at Windsor Febr. 15. in the fifth year of our Reign All this shews there was no variation in any of those Tryals but all went on pari passu in the same Method And it is not probable there could be any great change in their proceedings the Parliament continuing together so short a time but fifteen days in all as Mr. Pryn observes by the Writs of wages in his fourth Part which is concerning Parliamentary Writs And I think I may now say that few will believe I concealed these Precedents because they made against me The Case of Sir Thomas Berckley is of another nature his Tryal is said to be Inter Placita
when they might have been others that they were present when by his own Rules they should have been excluded either therefore the general words where they are not mentioned do not enforce their Absence or that they oughtto have been excluded at some other Trials where the Author of the Letter admits they were or might have been present The chief Case he instanceth in is that of Michael de la Pool Chancellour of England who was accused of many Misdemeanours by the House of Commons and as I think he would infer such as Thorp Chief Justice was found guilty of being Capital where the Author of the Letter saith the Bishops were not present yet allows them to have been present in the Case of this Chancellour a parallel Case as he saith with that of Thorp either therefore saith our Author they might have been present in the Case of Thorp or they should have been absent in Trial of Pool This is his Argument as near as I can gather out of his Words put together something obscurely I need give no other Answer to this than to lay before you the words of the Record This Accusation was exhibited by the Commons in 10 R. 2. against Michael de la Pool Lord Chancellour in full Parliament before the King Bishops and Lords and six Articles were objected by them against him The first was That he purchased Lands of the King of great value whilst he was Chancellour the other five as the Record saith were only Quarrels and of little concern To the first and most considerable the Chancellour put in a fair Answer the Commons reply and urge things to the utmost and amongst other things say That whereas by the Popes Provisions a Person was recommended to the Priory of St. Anthonies he the said Chancellour would not suffer him to be admitted till the Grantee had contracted to pay to the Chancellor and his Son 100 l. yearly and then parallel this with Thorp's Case and would have had the Chancellor in the same fault with Thorp for Bribery as a Judg and consequently incur the same Judgment The Chancellor replies and shews great difference between the Cases Upon the whole matter Judgment was given against him pursuant to the Accusation for Misdemeanours only in which the Bishops were and might be present and the parallelling it with Thorp's Case was only in the Management of the Cause by the Commons and no part of the Accusation Neither is it reasonable to believe that which our Author asserts in the same Page that the Prelates were free Agents and might withdraw at some times and be present at others as they saw cause For beside that this is contrary to the express Law of Clarendon which expresly declares that 't is their duty to be present in all Proceedings in Curia Regis which in that place must be understood of the Parliament because they were to be present with the other Lords tho I know that Curia Regis is sometimes taken in a more laxe Sense for all the Courts in Westminster are the King's Courts and unto which they were to give Obedience and Attendance in Cases not prohibited I say over and above this Act at Clarendon it seems to me very unreasonable to suppose that such a Body of Men had liberty to give their Attendance when they pleased without leave of the House or cause shewed why 't was fit they should be absent or that the Author of the Letter meant more when he saith they might have been present than that they were not prohibited by the Law of Clarendon which only had Relation to Matters of Blood But these Men had other Canons to go by when they thought fit as well as those of Toledo and 't is probable enough that the rest of the Noble-Men finding them most constant Factors for the Pope were willing enough to let them be absent upon any colourable Pretence when they desired it Is not one clear Precedent against them in point of greater weight than many dubious and equivocal ones which cannot without great Art be wire-drawn to speak to their advantage Let him consult the Discourse of Peerage pag. 17. The Case of the Earl of Northumberland 7 Hen. 4. Rot. processus cor Dom. Rege in Parl. in 5 Hen. 4. This Noble-Man came into Parliament and confessed before the King and Lords that he had done against his Allegiance in gathering Power and giving Liveries this Fact by the Lords was adjudged no Treason for which he gives Thanks to the Lords his Judges and a day after the Commons do the like where the Prelates are named as our Author affirms and to which I shall speak by and by But in 7 Hen. 4 the same Earl was in actual Rebellion in the North and his Forces dispersed by the Earl of Westmarland but he and the Lord Bardolf fled into Scotland the rest were most of them taken Prisoners This Case came into Parliament where the King commands the Lords Temporal Peers of the Realm to advise what Process to make and what Judgment to render against the Earl of Northumberland and Lord Bardolf Nothing can be plainer than that the King look'd upon the Lords Temporal as those Peers who were proper to give Judgment touching their Fellow Peers who had fled from Trial in a case of Blood The Record goes on the said Lords advised thereupon and gave Counsel to the King Then the said Lords Peers of the Realm by assent of the King order summoning the said Lords to appear at a day given or to stand convicted by Award of the Peers in Parliament The King farther demanded the Opinion of the Lords Temporal touching the Arch-bishop of York who was in the same Treason The Lords Temporal by the Assent of the King and by their Authority declared and awarded the said Earl and Lord to stand convict of Treason for not appearing upon Summons 'T is very clear that this whole Business was transacted by the Lords Temporal without the Bishops and with the Concurrence of the King 'T is not to be believed that the Bishops would have sate quiet had they thought themselves wronged in these Proceedings See the Discourse of Peerage pag. 17 18. I think it hardly possible to find a more clear Record in the Point than this is First here were two Noble Lords defeated in actual Rebellion and fled from Justice into Scotland The King upon this would not so much as consult with his Prelates knowing them by Law no proper Counsellours against Peers in matters of Blood applies himself to his Lords Temporal they order Proclamations by order of the King enjoyning the said Lords to appear at a day certain or to stand convict they not appearing are by Award of the Lords Temporal convicted of Treason and a Year after one is slain the other mortally wounded at Bramham-moor in York-shire Can any thing be more agreable to the Practice at this day against Men that fly from Justice and
and other Lords who were suspected to be of the Confederacy with the said Henry Hotspur alias Percy This was the work of Friday the 18th of February on Saturday the 19th the Commons give Thanks to the Lords Spiritual and Temporal for the rightful Judgment they had given as Peers of Parliament 5 H. 4 from N. 12 to N. 17. This is the whole Case as to Father and Son Now whether the Bishops were present at all these Proceedings and how far is the Question The Grand Questionist contends they were present at the Proceedings both against the Father and the Son at that against the Son from the word full Parliament which he seemeth to infer must include the Bishops and at that against the Father from the Thanks made by the House of Commons the next day after the acquittal of the Earl First as to the Son It appears plainly by the Historians of those times that he was slain in the fourth Year of the King in the life-time of the Father who soon after broke out into Rebellion so that at the time of Henry's Death he was only a Commoner and consequently not to receive any Judgment in the Lord's House alone nor could he be made a Traitor otherwise than by Act of Parliament so that the word full Parliament must either refer to some particular Act of Parliament made in his Case in which the Bishops might be present and the Commons concur or else the Proceedings were wholly irregular and contrary to their own Agreement in 4 E. 3. Now from an illegal Act no Right can be concluded As to the Earl himself we find him suddenly after in open Rebellion defeated and escaped into Scotland with Lord Bardolf and convicted of Treason by the Temporal Lords for not appearing upon Summons and all this within two Years after Now can it be reasonable to think that the Bishops were present at the acquittal of this very Lord in 5 H. 4. who were not present in 7 H. 4. which was but two Years after nor were present at a like Case in 2 H. 4. N. 30. against the Earl of Holland and others which was not three Years before Neither can any weight be laid upon the Thanks of the House of Commons which was only matter of Complement and performed at another time when the House was assembled upon other matters but seeing them there might extend their Thanks to them also who though they could not contribute did nothing to hinder the Clemency of the Temporal Lords towards the Earl besides at the same time it was accorded by the King and Lords upon the Desire of the Commons that certain ill Officers about the King should be discharged in which the Bishops might be Instrumental and very well deserve the Thanks of the Commons at which Desire of the Commons they might assist and be absent at the rest The Precedent of Iohn Lord Talbot will not avail him he exhibited an Accusation against the Earl of Ormond for certain Treasons by him committed this Accusation was in the Marshalsea before the Earl of Bedford Constable of England The King to put an end to this matter doth by Act of Parliament make an Abolition and Discharge of the said Accusation and Discovery The words are That the King by the Advice and Assent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal and the Commons made an Abolition of the said Detection Whoever denied the Bishops Consent in a Legislative way and had it been otherwise the Commons could not have been I think regularly concerned 2. H. 6. N. 9. The Precedent of the Duke of Suffolk in 28 H. 6. I thought to have passed over being a Case as irregular in the Proceedings as unjust in those that put to death that unfortunate Man Much Art was used by the Court to have preserved him from the Envy of the People A Parliament assembled at Westminster after dismissed into London then prorogued to Leicester that dissolved and another called at Westminister in which the Duke appeared which exasperated the Commons against him But upon the whole Record it appears that no Issue was joyned for after Articles exhibited by the Commons and his denial of them March 14 at the least of the eight first and giving some Answers to others on the 17 th he was sent for again and the Chancellour acquainted him that he had not put himself upon his Peerage and now asketh him how he would be tried who instead of pleading put himself upon the King's Order who caused him to be banished for five Years By all this it appears here were no judicial Proceedings which could not be before Issue joyned so that although the Bishops were present at the reading of the Articles yet this can be no Precedent to entitle them to be present in judicial Proceedings in Capital Causes for here were none at all in this Case and till Issue joyned the Bishops are not bound to withdraw Neither ought it to seem strange that the Viscount Beaumont should make Protestation in the name of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal against these Proceedings which they finding to be extra-judicial in very many Particulars they did not know I mean the Bishops as well as some of the Lords what Construction might be made to their Prejudice for sometimes they met in one place sometimes in another and not always in the Parliament-House to consult of this Business Besides many things pass sub silentio which being questioned would not have been allowed these Observations being added to what hath been said by the Author of the Letter seems to me a full Answer to this Precedent in which the Protestatio is only Protestatio facti not Iuris I have thus put an end to the Examination of this third Chapter and fully considered all his Arguments and Precedents and come now to a view of his fourth and last Chapter CHAP. IV. IN this Chapter our Author hath employed all his Art to assert the Peerage of the Bishops and that they make a third Estate in Parliament in what sense they are called Peers as also that the entire Clergy met in Convocation make a third Estate I have largely shewed before and shall not now repeat I admit they are sometimes called Lords Spiritual tho not so before Rich. II. but Prelates or the like Peers of the Realm Peers in Parliament If by that Appellation you would make them Equals to the Nobilitas Major I think they never were yet have they many Privtledges in respect of their Seats and Episcopal Dignity in the Lords House and by reason of their most honourable Profession have all of them Precedence to Barons I admit also that the Clergy is really a third Estate and that the Bishops in respect that they are the Head of the Clergy may sometimes in ordinary Discourse be called so but are in truth never so exclusively to the rest of the Clergy they all making but one Body or third Estate fully represented
than the Suitors at the Curia being Summon'd The Legislative power they exercised as Members of the General Council or Parliament And the Iudicial power as Members of the Curia and were Members of the Curia as they held Lands of the King in Chief Whereas Men came to the Parliament generally upon the account of property in Land without consideration of tenure so it were free In short a Man may have that in an extraordinary capacity in Parliament which he has not there in an ordinary I likewise held that Becket was try'd for Misdemeanors only though according to the Language of those days they were crimina Laesae Majestatis and that the Tryal was in a bare Curia Regis when no more than Suitors to that were summoned Mr. Hunt 's Argument upon this follows If it was the Curia Regis wherein the ordinary Justice of the Nation was administred and not the Parliament was intended in the Assize of Clarendon in which the priviledge and indulgence under the quosque was allow'd to Bishops then the Assize of Clarendon is unduly urg'd against the Bishops judging in Cases of Blood in Parliament c. And consequently by the Assize of Clarendon the Bishops have no leave to withdraw If the Court wherein Thomas Becket was tryed was the Curia Regis then the Bishops judging in that Court in that cause doth most clearly declare that being a case in point that the quousque was an indulgence which they might use or wave Now to my thinking this seeming irrefragable Argument has no real force For not to mention his wrong interpretation of the Constitution of Clarendon nor yet his mistake of the Fact in relation to Becket 's Tryal as if he were Tryed for a Capital Offence In both which I doubt not but he will receive Conviction to the contrary from these two Learned Authors I am bold to say that there is no manner of consequence in the first Branch of his Dilemma which is the only thing that can lye upon me to answer And truly I conceive that it by no means follows that because the Curia Regis in the Constitution of Clarendon is not the whole Parliament but only that Court which either when a Parliament was held or when only a Council of Tenants in Capite or Lords assembled had the sole exercise of the Judicial Power that therefore Iudgements in Parliament before the Lords such as were Members of the Curia are not affected by that Constitution any more than we can now say the House of Lords cannot be concerned in any matter which does not belong to the whole Parliament I shall only add three Observations which may go far to put an end to this Controversie 1. That part of the Constitution of Clarendon which says of the Ecclesiastick Tenants in Chief Debent interesse Judiciis Curiae Regis quousque perveniatur ad diminutionem membrorum vel ad mortem was part of the avitae consuetudines ecclesiasticae If it had been a New Law then indeed whatever was not expresly forbidden were matter of Liberty But it being only in affirmance of the Ancient Law their Liberty went no further than the usage which was to be present only till such Causes came to be tryed 2. If Precedents are as Mr. Hunt censures them like an Oracle that will always give a Response agreeable to the Enquirer and Consulter then we must as I formerly did look to the Law in the Case without entring into the large Field of Precedents 3. If the Canons require the Bishops not to concern themselves in the Tryals of Capital Causes and those Canons have been sufficiently received to become the Law of the Land which these Authors prove undeniably then the Bishops must ever be supposed to have been absent when such matters came in question in Parliament unless they are mentioned there by name and cannot be comprehended under words common to them with the Temporal Lords any more than we can imagine that the Popish Lords who are excluded the Lords House by Act of Parliament yet still are Peers are Parties to any Judgement given by the Peers there SIR THE former trouble I gave you upon this Subject you pulled upon your self by desiring my opinion in it but for this I now give you I must beg your pardon it being singly upon my own account to do my self â—…ht and justifie what I then wrote to you against several aspersions cast upon me in a Pamphlet entituled The Right of Bishops to judge in Capital Cases in Parliament c. made it seems by the same person who had set out the other Pamphlet intituled The Honours of the Spiritual Lords asserted c. Of which I gave you some account in a Postscript to my former Letter and I think without any sharp reflection either upon that Author or his work The most I said was When I had instanced in three notorious falsifications of his The first is p. 112. where he quotes Mr. Selden to prove That the Spiritualty made their Proxies in Capital Causes in more Parliaments than the 21 R. 2. for that they did it likewise in the 2 H. 4. and 2 H. 5. which I shew was a mistake and only said he could not find it so in the Record it self but that he took it upon trust out of the Margin of Mr. Seldens book of the Priviledges of the Baronage p. 125. where there is such a quotation of the 2 H. 4. and the 2 H. 5. but wholly misapplyed by our Assertor of Honours for Mr. Selden alledges that Precedent to shew that whereas 2 H. 5. it was by the then Earl of Salisbury assigned as an error in the Attainder of his Father who was condemned of High-Treason in the 2 H. 4. because it was done Sans Assent des Prelates which are the words of the Record Without the Assent of the Prelates by the way speaks nothing of Proxies it was then adjudged to be no error and his Petition rejected which in truth is a strong Argument to prove that the Prelates had no right to be present at such Tryals and Judgments which is the main Question between us And though he being of another mind had maintained his opinion by so gross a prevarication I was so far from retorting it upon him with any bitterness saying It was disingenious and a suppressing of truth and not setting things down faithfully which is his ordinary language concerning me Or with insipid jeers saying I wear a sharp Sword a Trenchant Toledo as one of the younger house of great Alexander and that he brings me to the Sun like Alexanders Horse and telling of the Magical combate in Apuleius and a City of Birds in Aristophanes and such other scurralous passages as his Book is full of which shews the sweetness of the Gentlemans nature and the goodness of his cause which he maintains only by railing and false assertions Whereas I rather lessened his fault saying only that he was mistaken by being
demand for I do very well know what judgments the Commons did then not intend which were all Judgments in Capital Cases for it is most clear by all Records of Parliament and all the vestigia that remain with us of the usage and proceedings of antient Parliaments that there is not the least colour for so much as a doubt or a suspition that the Prelates or Lords Spiritual could have any part in those Judgments And we know on the other side what judgments they had their shares in which were all Judgments in such Civil Causes as came into the Parliament and in Criminal Causes that were not Capital and the Commons then could intend none but these which was enough to satisfie me that this Petition of theirs at that time was no wayes contrary or repugnant to what I maintained And by the way methinks it is worth observation the reason they give of their desire that the Bishops would make a Proctor not so much for that that their presence there was of so absolute necessity as that what was done without them was in it self null and void but to put an end to all controversies which shews the Prelates had expressed some dissatisfaction and had gotten some things which had been done in their absence to be undone and Repealed which considering their power at that time and how all the Laity was in awe of them would have a great effect upon mens minds and make them do what else they would not have done and perhaps strain a point a little to satisfie them And still it shews that notwithstanding their absence they were good and valid till the same power that had made them did Repeal them And to shew what an ascendant the Prelates had over King and Parliament and the whole Kingdom at that time see what they did but the year before 20 R. 2. They declared unto the King in open Parliament That they were sworn to the Pope and See of Rome and if any thing were in Parliament attempted in restraint of the same they would in no wise assent thereunto but would utterly withstand the same and can we then wonder if the Commons were not very loth to displease them and willing to comply with them much rather than have a controversie with them and perhaps be fain at last to undo what they had done His fourth Postulatum is upon the Protestation of Viscount Beaumont in the name of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in the Case of William de Pole Duke of Suffolk which hath been touched upon before wherein he now saith I have left out the most material words but what they are he expresseth not nor can I imagine what he means As I have already said I have been very particular in setting down every circumstance of the whole proceeding acknowledged the actings of the Prelates in it thoroughout as far forth as the Temporal Lords and then I say how upon the Kings giving Judgment upon the Duke that Viscount in the name of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal made that Protestation That it should not be nor turn in prejudice nor derogation of them their heirs ne of their Successors in time to come I think this was sufficient to shew that I did acknowledg all that could be pretended to for the Bishops Judicature in that business and what this Assertor would have more and wherein I have failed I can not imagine only I see he is a quick-sighted Gentleman and can see further into a Milstone than another man and spy a fault which another cannot see He hath a fifth Postulatum to whichI can say nothing for I understand not what he would be at he speaks of my accurateness in making a distinction between the Matter andForm of a Law and then saith He observes three things though he expresseth but two which he saith he shall have occasion to make use of hereafter when he comes to speak of the particular Cases and I must refer my Answer to what I shall there find when I believe I shall make it appear that he makes no great use of them nor of any other Argument that he brings And now I come to the particular Cases the first is 4 E. 3. of Roger Mortimer Earl of March being then condemned for Treason Here our Asserter saith That by 28 E 3. upon his Cousin Roger of Wigmore's petitioning to have this Judgment and Attainder reversed I acknowledg it to be an Attainder If I say truth say nothing to the purpose This is gentile language and which discovers my Gentlemans ignorance as well as his rudeness his ignorance in conceiving an Attainder to be only by a Law by an Act of Parliament in which Bishops may be present and if they were not so but did withdraw it was their own voluntary act and no diminution to their Rights I have already upon his second Postulatum handled this point so fully and made I think both his errour and the truth so clear as I need not say any thing more to it here Then it is a pretty Argument he brings against my saying That the Record being Les queur Counts Barons Piers les Articles per eur eramine rebindrent c. Which Earls Barons and Peers having examined the Articles returned c. It must be inferred that the Bishops cannot be comprehended under the word Peers since the Barons are named first To this his Answer is Well but I find the contrary Peers many times put before Barons particularly in Mr. Selden's Baronage p. 12. then he cites a Record of the Judgment against John Mautravers where it is said For which the said Peers of the Land and Judges of Parliament adjudge and award c. Doth this at all contradict my quotation of the Record in Roger of Mortimers Case but that it is as I say That the general word Peers is there put after the Barons and being so cannot comprehend Bishops because in some other Records that word is put before He talks of drawing arguments illogically I am sure this is so I would put him a Case he brings his Action of Slander against one for that at such a time in such a place he had spoken ill of him and said he was a lying Knave and other words that will bear an Action and proves it by witness That man proves by other Witnesses That at another time and in another place he had spoken very well of him and said He was a fine Gentleman I ask now if he would be satisfied with this and not stand upon it that he had proved his Plaint and expects a Verdict and Judgment upon it So may I say that my Precedent stands good and proves what I alledge it for and what he saith is not to the purpose But I will go further and make it appear that even his Precedents that he alledges make all for me and against himself and though he charges me with not being so good as my word saying That I
Coronae tenta coram Domino E. Rege in pleno Parliamento suo c. Mem. Thomas de Berkeley Miles venit coram Rege in pleno Parliamento suo allocutus de hoc c. about the murther of Edward the Second and asked how he would be tryed Ponit se super Patriam So twelve Knights were empannelled who did acquit him I do not look upon this as a Tryal by the House of Peers acting in their ordinary Judicial Capacity There was some other Court in those times in time of Parliament where the Peers probably were the principal Judges but then were added to them some great Officers of the Crown and of the Judges of Westminster-Hall before whom those Pleas of the Crown were held I confess this is to me Terra incognita a thing of which I can give no very good account But I think one may affirm with confidence that no Prelates were amongst them for they would have been mentioned if they had been there as in all Criminal Causes which were Capital or in any thing concerning such Causes I observe they were And even in this Case of Sir Thomas Berckley the next Parliament N. 18. it is said â—…tem en mesme le Parlement si prierent les Prelatz Countes 〈◊〉 Barons pout Mr. Thomas de Berkley a nostre Sur le Roy â—…il lui voustst deliver de meynprise c. Item in the same Parliament the Prelates Earls and Barons besought the King that he would set Sir Thomas Berkley at liberty from his Mainprize I do observe they are always named and never omitted if any else be named which is my Postulatum to our Asserter and not as he injuriously would put it upon me p. 56. of his Pamphlet That I should maintain That the Prelates are in all Cases particularly named or else they cannot be thought to be there and then to disprove it quotes a Bill of Subsidy where the words are Les Seigneurs Communes si sont assentez The Lords and Commons have agreed And Semble as Seigneurs du Parlement It seems to the Lords of Parliament and a hundred such instances more I know he may give And the Trifler could not but know that I could intend it of no other but of the matters in question which were Judgements in Criminal Causes And I shall add but this more to shew the improbability of the Prelates of those times being at all employed in Tryals of that nature and least of all that we should imagine they could be comprized under general expressions which if it were would argue an unquestionable right and title in them to such a Judicature Let us consider the Statute made but two years before it is 2 E. 3. c. 2. which confirms a Statute formerly made 27 E. 1. c. 3. which Enacts That the Justices of Gaol delivery which are sent down into the several Counties when they enquire of Felonies and Murthers if one of them be a Clerk then some discreet Knight of that County shall be associate to him that is the Lay-man and shall deliver the Gaol We see how careful they were then that no Church-man should take Cognizance of Matters of Blood Canon Law Common Law and Statute Law did prohibit it And now to follow my Gentleman to the Parliament 5 E. 3. in which he tells me I have not been fortunate in the choice of my Topick because that Parliament being called for the redress of the Peace and the Bishops saying It did not properly belong to them to give the King counsel for the keeping of the Peace of the Kingdome signified nothing But had they said it did not all belong to them it had been somewhat to the purpose But under this Gentlemans favour I think it is to the purpose to shew that the Bishops did then believe and acknowledge that it did not properly belong to them to look to the keeping of the Peace that it was not their proper work which implies that they conceived their duty and employment to lie another way And it is a strong argument à minore that if they might not do that and advise the King in doing what was necessary for the keeping of the Peace and punishing the breakers of it much less could they be put upon it to judge in Matters of Blood And for them to say that It did not properly belong to them was a little softer and more respectful to the King to excuse themselves from doing what he required of them for giving their advice than if they had bluntly said That it was not at all of their duty to give such advice which had grated a little too much and had been a kind of retorting it upon the King for requiring a thing in it self improper and unreasonable And yet they did as strongly put it off from themselves saying It did not properly belong to them for no prudent and sober man will do a thing that is not proper for him nor can it be required of him that he should So I think my Topick was very good and I may say I am not altogether unfortunate to have to deal with so weak and impertinent an Adversary What he saith in the Case of Sir John Grey and Sir William de la Zouch of Bishops that they are sometimes comprehended under the general word of Les Grantz I never denied it but in that place where the King did charge Toutz les Countes Barons autres Grantz en lour foies ligeances c. All the Earls Barons and other great men c. I say that Bishops cannot be comprehended there because in that place it can be understood but of such great persons whose Rank is after the Barons where I am sure no Clerk of the Parliament durst ever rank the Prelates And another Rule which I stand upon is That if any one Bench of the House of Peers be named and specified as that of Earls or Barons that of the Bishops if the Bishops were present is never left out but always first placed The next scratch he gives me is upon the Case of Sir William Thorp 25 E. 3. upon my inferring that by the General Term of the Grantz in that Parliament who approved of the Judgement of death given upon Thorp it cannot be supposed that the Bishops are understood because they tell the King that if such a Case should happen afterwards the King might call any of those Grantz whom he pleased and by their advice give such a Judgement of himself which I say could not be meant of Bishops because it was no employment for them to assist in Judgements of death Upon this my Gentleman is pleased in good serious earnest as he scoffingly expresses it to ask if this be not petere Principium to beg what I am to prove And I answer in true serious earnest that I do not petere Principium not beg the Question for the Question is first general Whether Bishops in Parliament can be employed in
doubtful to him who these Lords were whether the Prelates or the Lords particularly named and plusours autres Seigneurs under which he saith very probably the Lords Spiritual might be comprised I see a truth cannot come clearly from him a thing that is most clear he makes it doubtful And one thing he saith most falsely of a Petition commanded to be read Numb 29. En cest Parlement per les Prelates Seigneurs Piers du Parlement By the Prelates and Lords Peers of Parliament which Petition he will have to be concerning this matter which is most false For that which is said Numb 29. is of a Petition and Writ of Error presented by William de Montague Earl of Salisbury which was then read and nothing at all concerning Gomenitz and Weston which is a horrible falshood and imposture of our Asserter to abuse the world so and impose upon the Reader The first request of the Commons concerning this business and to have this matter examined is Numb 38. and then Numb 39. there is mention of a Schedule given in by Weston and the Record saith Ueue leue la dite cedule en plein Parlement The Schedule being seen and read in full Parliament and any thing concerning Weston or Gomenitz before this there is not But some falshood he must still add of his own for the Jesuites Verse is very applicable to him Verba damus cum nostra damus quia fallere nostrum est Et cum nostra damus nil nisi verba damus And indeed throughout his whole Pamphlet he doth but Verba dare take Verba Words as in opposition to reality and truth for it is full of falshoods or take Words in opposition to matter and good sense for his whole Book is a very bundle of words without any good matter in it But one thing more I cannot but observe it is his insisting so much upon a thing which I am confident himself doth not believe though I have known a teller of stories tell one of his own invention so often that at last himself hath begun to believe it to be a truth It is that after the naming several Lords and ending with some Barons there is a general expression â—…t plusours autres Seigneurs Barons Bannerettes And many other Lords Barons and Bannerets my confident Gentleman hath the boldness to add Under which probably the Lords Spiritual might be comprised which he knows the Prelates of those times if they had been concerned in it would never have endured and the Clerk of the Parliament would as soon have eaten Fire as have entered it so Then in the Case of the Murtherers of John Imperial a publick Minister 3 R. 2. because I observe that it is expressed in the Parliament Roll that the Bishops were not present at the framing of the Act to make it Treason in them which I grant in other places of my Letter they might have been being to pass an Act of Parliament in a Legislative way my Gentleman is pleased to say That I forget my self In truth No I did suppose it and do suppose it to be a good Argument à minore to shew that the Prelates were then so modest as to withdraw upon the passing of a Law for the greater punishment of such a Capital Crime which in strictness perhaps they did not need to have done much more then would they avoid the sitting as Judges to take away life in a judicial way which they could no ways pretend to But my Gentleman loves to quarrel and scribble Paper though to no purpose To the Case of Sir Ralph Ferrers 4 R. 2. he only sings over his tedious plain Song That under the general word of Lords of Parliament Bishops may be comprehended and therefore he will have it That they must be so And much good may it do him with his Crambe bis cocta I may say centies cocta for I think he serves up this same dish a hundred times in this his learned Treatise But I may not let pass what he saith upon the Case of the Bishop of Norwich 7 R. 2. how extream falsly he recites things taking all upon trust how this man or t'other man cites a Record but never seeing the Record it self which perhaps he cannot so much as read He desires it may be taken notice of that for those Misdemeanors he was adjudged to make Fine and Ransome to the King and that the Judgement was passed upon him by the Lords by assent of Parliament where he saith he hopes I will not deny but that there were Bishops present and for this sends me to Cotton's Abridgement 7 R. 2. n. 23. but if he would have looked upon the Parliament Roll he would have found this Perquoy del aâ—…ent des Countes Barons autres Seigneurs Temporelz presentz en ce Parlement est assentuz accordez que vous soiez en la mercile Roy mis au fin raunceon pur vostre malfait solonc la quantitée qualitée dicell Therefore by the assent of the Earls Barons and other Lords Temporal present in this Parliament it is agreed and accorded that you shall be at the Kings mercy and put to Fine and Ransome for your misdeeds according to its quantity and quality You see now how this man would impose upon us and what stuff he brings to make good his assertion If I had been guilty of such a falshood I should have heard of it to purpose that both my ears would have rung again and no Ink this Gentleman could have got black enough to set it out in its colours Then he comes to the Case of Michael d la Poole 10 R. 2 where he saith the same things he did before and which I have already answered so to that I refer you The next is the 11 R. 2. where the Prelates withdrawing from Parliament by reason of matters of blood which were then to come into agitation enter a Protestation with a Salvo to their right of sitting in Parment which my Gentleman will have to be meant even of their being present at the agitation of those matters if they were so pleased This hath been treated of before at large already to which I refer you I will only observe this further at present out of the words of their Protestation first they say Quia in praesenti Parliamento agitur de nonnullis materiis in quibus non licet nobis aut alicui eorum juxta Sacrorum Canonum instituta quomodolibet personaliter interesse ea propter pro nobis eorum quolibet protestamur eorum quilibet hic presens etiam protestatur quod non intendimus nec volumus sicuti de jure non possumus nec debemus nec intendit nec vult aliquis eorum dum de hujusmodi materiis agitur vel agetur quomodolibet interesse sed nos eorum quemlibet in ea Parte penitus absentaxe This they declare That it is not lawful for them nor any of them
tumultuary way without any formal Tryal the business being brought into Parliament were by the Temporal Lords in a Judicial way of proceeding adjudged to be Traytors and their fact to be Treason But then he adds that I likewise make the Case of the Earl of Cambridge 3 H. 5. like to these which is not true being of a clean different nature an Act of Parliament which had its rise from a request of the House of Commons who brought it up to the Lords here I say the Bishops were and might be present That which he saith to the Case of Sir John Oldcastle 5 H. 5. is so threadbare with rubbing it over and over again and hath been so often said and so often answered as that it would too much trespass upon your patience Sir to trouble you with any one word of it more I think I have made it exceeding clear where under the general term of Lords of Parliament Bishops may be understood to be comprehended and where not Those particular Cases which he now brings to prove his Assertion are point blank against him that is the Case of Mautravers 4 E. 3. and of Gomenitz and Weston 1 R. 2. in that of Gomenitz many particular Lords are named several Earls and Barons and then a general clause Et plusieurs autres Seigneurs Barons Bannerettes Is it possible to think that Bishops come in that fag end Indeed I do observe one thing in this Case of Sautre which is not in any of the other I cannot say that I lay any great stress upon it yet something it is that the Record expresses that the Bishops had done with him declaring him a Heretick and then Relinquentes eum ex nunc Iudicio seculari Leaving him from henceforward to the Secular Judgement as if they should say They would have no more to do with him And as convincingly he argues in the Case of Sir John Mortimer 2 H. 6. He confesses with me that the Indictment found against him at the Guild hall was brought into Parliament before the Duke of Gloucester and the Lords Temporal Fuit liberatum It was there delivered to them and then he cites a Record as he makes it De advisamento dictorum Dominorum auctoritate istius Parliamenti ordinatum est statutum quod ipse usque ad Turrim ducatur By the advice of the said Lords it was ordained and enacted by authority of the said Parliament and by the advice of the said Lords Temporal that he should be led to the Tower These are his words and how he hath mangled and falsely rendred and expounded the Record you will judge by the words of the Record it self which I will here faithfully set down It is this Numb 18. Memorand quod 26. die Februarii anno praesenti de advisamento Dominorum Temporalium ac ad Supplicationem Communitatis Regni Angliae in praesenti Parliamento existentiam redditum fuit quoddam Iudicium versus Iohan. de Mortimer de Bishops Natfield in Comitatu Nertford Chevalier cujus quidem Iudicii recordum patet in Schedula per Iohannem Hals unum Iusticiariorum Domini Regis de banco edita praesenti Rotulo consuta Memor That the 26th of February of this present year by the advice of the Lords Temporal and at the Petition of the Commons in this present Parliament a certain Judgement was given upon Sir John Mortimer of Bishops-Hatfield in the County of Hertford Knight the Record of which Judgement appears in a Schedule drawn by John Hals one of the Justices of the Kings-bench and fastened to this Roll. Then follows the Schedule it self where is set down what past at Guild-hall upon the sinding of the Indictment and how that Indictment was brought into the Parliament Coram duce Bedfordiae ac aliis Dominis Temporalibus Before the Duke of Bedford and the other Lords Temporal and how Sir John Mortimer was brought before them by the Lieutenant of the Tower and how the Commons desired the Indictment might be affirmed and that Judgement might be given upon him Then follows Super hoc viso plenius intellecto Indictamento per dictum Ducem de advisamento dictorum Dominorum Temporalium ac ad requisitionem totius Communitatis authoritate istius Parliamenti ordinatum est statutum quod Indictamentum affirmetur praedictus Iohannes Mortimer de proditionibus praedictis sit convictus ad Turrim ducatur usque ad furcas de Tyburn trahatur super eas suspendatur c. Hereupon the Indictment being viewed and well understood it was by the foresaid Duke by the advice of the said Lords Temporal and at the request of all the Commons ordained and decreed that the Indictment should be affirmed and the foresaid John Mortimer stand convicted of his foresaid Treasons should be carried to the Tower then drawn to the Gallows at Tyburn and there hanged c. This was a Judgement of the House of Peers in their Judicial capacity upon an Impeachment and at the pursuit of the House of Commons who prosecuted and pressed the evidence before the Lords the words of the Record are Tota Communitas praefatum Indictamentum illud in omnibus fuxta vim formam effectum efusoem pro vero fideli Indictamento affirmat ac praefatis Duci ac aliis Dominis Temporalibus supplicat eadem Communitas quatenus iidem Dux Domini Indictamentum praedictum pro vero fideli Indictamento affirmare vellent quod executio dicti Iohannis Mortimer ut de proditionibus feloniis convicti fiat The whole House of Commons do affirm the foresaid Indictment to be in all points for the force form and effect thereof a true and legal Indictment and that execution of the said John Mortimer as of one convicted of the said Treasons and Felonies may follow This you see was a formal Tryal in all points and a Judgement upon it and so it is entred upon the Roll such a day 26 Februarii de advisamento Dominorum Temporalium ad Supplicationem Communitatis redditum fuit quoddam Iudicium versus Iohannem de Mortimer c. And our Asserter here tells us a tale of a Tub that the matter should be decreed after by Authority of Parliament of which the Bishops are an essential part and therefore were present which is an excellent Chimaeâ—…a as if the Advisamentum Dominorum Temporalium Authoritas Parliamenti were two distinct things and the work of several persons some actors in the one who were not so in the other and that the advice of the Lords Temporal had produced some other things which had a greater authority and that the Bishops had joyned in that which shews his ignorance in the course of Parliaments for the Judgement which is given Judicially in the House of Lords hath upon it the stamp and the authority of the whole Parliament and that Advisamentum of the Lords Temporal here was the Judgement as is the advice and assent of the Lords Spiritual
what Men may say of themselves or passeth under common Estimation of Men but what upon serious Examinition of the Question shall be found to be true I shall endeavour to make it appear that many who held Lands in Cap per Baroniam or per servitium Baroniae were not enobled in Blood nor had Right to demand their Writ of Summons as the Noble Barons had but were to expect the King's Will and Pleasure and were often left out These were secundae Dignitatis Barones or Barons by Tenure only of which some might probably be adopted into the Nobilitas Major afterwards as Barones adscriptij yet at first were not so and this was to them an Honour but to the Bishops a Burthen who held their Lands free before and had no Honour conferred upon them as the rest had For tho it be true that all the great Noble-Men held per Baroniam yet was it not their Tenure which gave them that Right as I shall shew by and by These second sort of Barons were called Barons Peers because they held of the King in Capite as his immediate Free-holders and were stiled Barones Regis for the Word imported then no more but Men holding of the King's Person in Capite These subdivided their Lands to others under the like Military Service these were likewise called Barons from their appearing at their Lord's Court called the Court Baron and Baronagium became a Word of general Signification comprehending those liberè Tenentes or Sutors to the Court Baron who together with the King 's immediate Tenants who were the Barones Regis that is the Kings immediate Free-holders made up the Communitas Angliae and comprehended all Persons except such as held in Villenage Besides these thus made by the King there were others some found here some brought out of Normandy of great Nobility and Extraction who had of their own great Possessions as Earldoms and Counties in this Country and others brought over with the Conquerour out of Normandy of an Inferiour Rank to whom he gave the like Honour out of the Lands of those adhered to Harold which all held of him per Baroniam but by Creation were many of them afterwards made of a higher Rank and were called Comites Regis and Majores Barones Regni they being possessed of the like Honours in their several Countries before The Bishops I conceive were not under any of these Ranks but were called to Parliaments ratione Episcopalis Dignitatis not ratione Tenurae only of which they complained as a Burthen Creation they had none to any higher Honour than Episcopal their Tenure could not give them a greater Honour than to be Barones minores or Barons Peers Neither can I find in any Act of Parliament or Record that they were called Lords before the time of Rich. II. and then first called Lords Spiritual to shew their Honour arose from their Spiritual Function and not from any Temporal Possessions nor the name of Barons applied to them except by themselves who perhaps finding the Burthen of their Service which before was free were willing that others should give them the Title tho there was no more reason that their Tenure by Baron Service should make them Barons than that Knight Service should make the Tenant a Knight Having thus cleared my way I shall in the next place shew that these Barones Minores or Barons Peers were sometimes summoned by Writs to Parliament and sometimes left out The Abbot of Feversham one under the same Rule with the Bishops was summoned to 12 Consecutive Parliaments as Tenant in capite per Baroniam and then left out 19 Edw. 2. Rot. penes remem Dom. Regis in Scall Thomas de Furnival had been sumoned to 30 Parliaments and yet upon an Amerciment in the Exchequer pleads he was no Baron now except he had held in Cap. per Baroniam or part of a Barony he could not have been summoned at all as a Member of Parliament Whether his Plea were allowed doth not appear upon the Record but by this and some other Records in my hand to the same purpose it seems to me that many that held per Baroniam were not Barons but at the best Bannerets or Barons Peers I cannot find by my utmost search that any thing hitherto hath madeit apparent that Baronies were ever annexed to the Possessions of the Bishops but Men have generally taken it for granted that they were so They say that William the first soon after his Reception to the Crown of England did introduce new Tenures and established Counties and Baronies and did then order that Bishops and the Parliamentary Clergy should hold per Baroniam or sicut Baroniam which the Learned Mr. Selden saith in the language of those Times signified the same thing For he saith that tenere de Rege in capite and habere possessiones sicut Baroniam and to be a Baron according to the Laws of those Times are synonimous Seld. Tit. Hon. part 2. pag. 704 Cook Hakewell and others say they hold per Baroniam But the Proofs any that I have met with offer to make good this Division by William or that Tenure per Baroniam did infer more when a minor Baron in my Judgment are not cogent What they urge is taken out of Wendover and from him transcribed by Matth. Paris He first greatly blaming the Act of William hath these Words Episcopatus Abbatias omnes quae Baronias tenebant catenus ab omni servitute saeculari libertatem habuerant sub servitute statuit militars irrotulans singulos Episcopatus Abbatias pro voluntate suâ quot Milites sibi successoribus suis Hostilitatis tempore voluit a singulis exhiberi That is He established under Military Service all Bishopricks and Abbeys which held Baronies and at that time had freedom from all Secular Service inrolling them all and appointing according to his Pleasure what Souldiers in time of War they should severally find unto him and his Successors Mr. Selden finding the contradiction in these Words that their Baronies which should have kept them as he thought free from Secular Service as the words import were the only thing that bound them to it thinks there ought to be a Parenthesis after Baronias in purâ perpetuâ eleemosina eatenus ab omni servitio saeculari c. and makes the words run thus All Bishops and Abbeys that held Baronies in Frankalmoign and in that respect freed from all Secular Service c. And backs this Conjecture by the Authority of Mr. Cambden who he conceives might have seen some Copy where those words were But he need not have put himself to the trouble of that Conjecture had he translated eatenus at that time as the word signifies and never that I know in that respect However finding further that this would not take away all doubt because the words refer not to all Bishopricks and Abbeys but to such only as then possessed
their share in making new ones This one would think were enough to content them without desiring to have a Judicial Power in Cases of Blood which I doubt not to prove is by Law forbidden them But I fear the charging this Desire upon them is rather an Artifice of their Enemies who by assixing this Calumny upon them which indeed is not their Design labour to lessen them in the Estimation of the World and by that means bring into Contempt both their Persons and Callings Many Examples I confess are given where Christian Emperours and Princes have made use of the Service of Bishops as Counsellors Chancellors and Chief Justices and the like but upon Examination it will appear that as to our own Kingdom the Offices of these Persons were much mistaken The Office of Capitalis Justiciarius Angliae was not to sit and judge Causes among Associates as at this day but was the Chief Officer of the Nation had the Appellation of Prorex and had Power in the Absence of the King to displace any Officer of the Cinque-Ports and to do any thing as Vice-Roy and Protector of the Kingdom of which see at large Sir Henry Spelman's Glossary in the Word Capitalis Justiciarius Upon Examination it will be manifest that when they sate in any such places their Service rather was to direct the Conscience to make amicable ends of Controversies to preach Peace to others and pursue it themselves till the Subtilty of Rome turned Religion into Policy and destroyed the Power of it How far the Edicts of Princes were binding is not my Task to enquire but only how far that of their not medling in Blood was a part of the Law and Custom of this Kingdom and observed here But what I have said in this Chapter especially as to the Baronies of Bishops I have delivered by way of Proposal not Determination and upon a clear Answer of my Reasons shall be ready to retract any thing I have written CHAP. II. I Come now to the Examination of his second Chapter in which the Recognitions made at the Parliament held at Clarendon come under Examination together with the Protestation made 11 R. 2. I call it a Parliament because I find it generally so esteemed by our best Lawyers and I think denyed to be so by very few Mr. Selden calls it that great Parliament at Clarendon Tit. Hon. part 2. ch 5. p. 703. the first Edit in fol. Coo. 2. Instit. ch 2. p. 6. and in many other places Hoveden saith there met Clerus Populus Angliae Where note he makes Clerus comprehend Bishops Abbots and all Ecclesiastical Persons and Populus both Lords and Commons contrary to what Dr. Brady hath asserted but very weakly proved But before I enter into a more narrow Examination of this Statute I think it not amiss to give a short Account of the History of those times from William the First to the tenth year of Hen. the Second when this Meeting was with Relation only to the King and the Church It will not be denyed that William the First disclaimed all Title to the Crown of England by Conquest and swore to observe the Laws of Edw. the Confessor which were our Laws before yet notwithstanding it is generally agreed that he erected Tenures in Capite and Baronies and that amongst others he obliged the Bishops who before held their Lands in Frankalmoign to do Service to his Courts and to hold their Lands in Cap. sicut Baroniam and not to make their so frequent Appeals to Rome and Journeys thither without his License being a thing contrary to the known Laws of his Kingdom which is made evident by Sir Edward Cook in Cawdryes Case and Sir Roger Twysden in his Vindication of the Church of England in point of Schism These were the Servitutes ecclesiasticae and the Pessimae consuetudines so much complained of by Mat. Paris and other Monks of that Age. But however so it stood during the Times of Will the First Will. the Second and Hen. the First after whose Death Stephen without any Right and contrary to their Oaths made to Maud Daughter to Henry the First then alive by the Aid of the Bishops gets into the Throne and by their Power was kept there till a Composition was made with Maud. In Recompence of this their breach of Oath Stephen frees them and the rest of the Clergy from answering in any other Courts but Ecclesiastical by which they now look'd upon themselves as free from the secular Power because they were answerable for no Offences but in their Courts In this State of things Stephen dies and Hen. the Second Son to Maud according to Capitulation is received to the Crown who after he had setled his Affairs in Normandy resolves to do the like in England but fearing some Opposition to his Designs might arise from the Clergy he first calls together an Assembly or Council at Westminster in the ninth year of his Reign where he propounds That all such of the Clergy as should be taken and convicted for any heinous Crime should lose the Priviledge of the Church and be delivered to the civil Magistrate to be punished for their Offences as other the Kings Subjects were To this the Arch-bishop Becket with the rest of his Brethren refused to give their Consent as being against the Liberties of the Church which were confirmed to them by King Stephens Charter This Answer put the King to a second Question Whether the Arch-bishops and Bishops would submit themselves to the Laws and Customs observed by them in the time of his Grand-father Henry the First They answered equivocally They would their Order the Honour of God and the Holy Church in all things saved with which Answer the King was more enraged But the News of this Breach coming to Rome the Pope writes and sends a Messenger from Rome charges the Arch-bishop to make Peace with his Lord the King and to promise to observe his Laws without Exception The Arch-bishop thus humbled repairs to the King at Woodstock and there promises to observe the King's Laws so far forth as was required Upon this Submission the King having before broken up his Council at Westminster summons this Parliament to meet at Clarendon in the tenth Year of his Reign where he gives in Charge that they should call to Mind and put in Execution and Writing the Laws of his Grand-father Henry the First Of which these following were the chief First that there should be no Appeals to Rome without the Kings leave That Lay-men might handle cases of Tithes That no Arch-bishop or Bishop should excommunicate any person who held of the King in Cap. or interdict any official of his without his leave c. The eleventh of them was at large what we have now under Consideration which I shall repeat and translate as it ought to be by and by But by this short Relation I have made of the History of those
Times it may appear plainly that their yielding Obedience to the known Laws of the Kingdom in matters of Appeal appearing and answering in the King's Courts though it were the ancient Usage and Custom of the Realm was the thing that most vexed them and not how far their Presence was required in cases of Blood brought into Parliament in which they were contented to be limited by the Usage of that Court and to afford or forbear their Presence according to that Obligation which was incumbent upon them from the Canons of the Church invigorated by the constant Usage of the Nation If therefore I can make it good that the Bishops had no Right to be present in the Debate and handling matters of Blood and that that was the known Law and the Sense of this Act now before us and of the subsequent Protestation in 11. of R. 2. I shall think my self competently safe though some seeming Precedents and Records should be brought against me for it is the Law must be the Measure and Standard of our Actions and not always Records the Reasons whereof are sometimes obscure and the matter it self many times shortly rehearsed and not always legal I must confess this Author hath much laboured to fix a Sense upon this Article subservient to his Purpose but the more he struggles the more he is intangled 'T is worth Observation that four or five I suppose different Persons have written in the Defence of the Bishops Right to vote in Capital Causes in Parliament and having all of them a necessity to say something to this Law of Clarendon do all of them give different Interpretations of the meaning of it a great Argument of a weak Cause The first whose Title is The Honour of the Lords Spiritual c. I presume being satisfied with the general Sense which was put upon these Constitutions from all times from which it is always unsafe to vary and perceiving that those illegal Priviledges granted to them by King Stephen were by the reviving the Laws of Henry the First abolished doth ingeniously confess in three places pag. 26. at the end of the sixth Chapter and in the same page at the beginning of the seventh Chap. That at Clarendon their Wings were indeed much clip'd yet the Priviledge of sitting and voting in Parliament is left intire to them and tho' they never of late voted in Capital Cases yet they have ever made their Proxies as he hopes to make appear In Chapter the seventh he hath these words We confess as before for that they were Spiritual Persons they were not to sit in Capital Causes and loss of Limb but adds that long before they had exercised this Power By which Words it appears that in the Judgment of that Author whatever their Power and Practice was before yet that now by the Laws of Henry the First recognized at this Parliament at Clarendon that Power was taken away and not since practised That they had such Power before he endeavours to prove out of Compton and Spelman neither of which Authors make good any more than that the Bishop was Assessor with the Earl in the County-court which was only to advise him in point of Conscience not much unlike the Offices of our Surrogates who sit in consistory with the Bishops Chancellor in whom we know resides all the Power That this is so appears by the Laws of Edgar put out by Mr. Lambert who in his fifth Chapter hath these Words Centuriâ—… comitâ—…is quisqueâ—…t antea praescribitur interesto Celeberrimus autem ex omni Saâ—…ia bis quotannis conventus agitor cui cuidem illius Diocesis Episcopus senator intersunto quorum alter jura divina alter humana populum edoceto By which we see 't was the Office of the Bishop to direct the People in Divine Laws as it was of the Senator or Earl to teach them Humane of the same Opinion is Sir Edward Coo. 2 Instit. p. 488. Stat circumspecte agatis Lastly Chap. 8. pag. 32. he mentions the Council at Westminster that in regard they might not Agitare judicium sanguinis they had many times forborn to meddle in such Matters The whole Chapter is concerning Bills of Attainder now whether he meant that in such cases they did sometime absent themselves let himself explain This Author not fore-seeing the Advantage would be made of these Constitutions or else hoping to help himself upon the Power they had to make Proxies doth ingeniously confess the Truth but is deserted by all those of his Side who follow him The Author of the Rejoinder p. 5. tells you that the Constitutions of Clarendon permit the Bishops to be present and vote till it comes to loss of Life or Member which is not till the passing of Sentence upon the Prisoner I believed the loss of Life and Member was the Execution and if they may be there and vote till then they may be present as long as any other for when that is given all go away but if his Meaning be that they should go away when the Sentence is to be pronounced the precedent Words will not bear that Construction so that according to him this is rather an imping than clipping the Wings of the Bishops as the former Author affirmeth Beside this Exposition is contrary to the Votes of the Lords who tell you they must go away when their Lordships proceed to voting Guilty or Not Guilty which is before the definitive Sentence which is always given in the Presence of the Prisoner the other not Vide Iournal of Parl. pag. 258. 15 Maii 1679. in which they explained a former Vote made by their Lordships 13 Maii 1679. in which they had voted that the Lords Spiritual had Right to stay in Court in Capital Cases till Sentence or Judgment of Death came to be pronounced by which you see the House of Lords have disowned that Sense our late Interpreters would put upon the Words of this Constitution though themselves before had given colour to that Interpretation Our third Author intituled The Rights of the Bishops fairly passeth over this Law only tells you that a Bishop pronounced Sentence against Becket in case of Treason as Fitztephen a grave Author saith and farther tells you That though the Prince may indulge many Priviledges to his Clergy as this of not compelling them to vote in Parliament in cases of Blood where by the Canon Law they are prohibited yet that Law must yield to the Law of the Land but how if the Canon Law be part of the Law of the Land what 's then to be done which cannot devest the King of his Right of using his Subjects Clerks or not in any Places or Employments he shall think fit to employ them in or in which he may think them capable of doing Him or the Publick any Service This I confess is plain dealing and I wish it were not too much the Sense of some of our greatest Clerks that let the
Law be what it will it cannot bind the King's Hands from making use of any of his Subjects in what he pleases though the Employment be forbidden by Law This is the Meaning our third Author gives of this Constitution and much good may it do him Our last Author in his Grand Question comes next to be examined in which I shall be more large because in him is concentred what the rest have said and his Cause defended with much Learning and variety of Reading He names the Constitutions of Clarendon and the Protestation in 11 R. 2. as the two main Laws against him The Constitutions of Clarendon which were no more than a Recognition of the ancient Laws and Customs of England not made but revived by Hen. the First and now confirmed by his Grand-son Hen. the Second he considers as the most material and is content this Cause should stand or fall by them He tells you the Constitution in Debate is the eleventh in number of which the Words are Archiepiscopi Episcopi universae Personae regni qui de Rege tenent in Capite habeant Possessiones suas de Rege sicut Baroniam inde respondeant Justiciariis Ministris Regis faciant omnes consuetudines Regias Et ficut ceteri Barones debeant interesse Iudiciis curie Regis quousque perveniatur ad diminutionem Membrorum vel ad Mortem After the Words he gives us the Translation of them made by the Author of the Letter in the following manner The Arch-bishops and Bishops and all the dignified Clergy of the Land that hold of the King in Capite shall hold their Possessions of the King as a Barony and answer for their Estates unto the King's Justices and Ministers and shall observe and obey all the King's Laws and together with the other Barons they are to be present at all Judgments in the King's Courts till it comes to require either loss of Life or Member But pray Sir why did you not rather give us a Translation of these Words of your own If the Author of the Letter have made an imperfect Translation why did not you mend it I believe if this Author had found it would have advantaged his Cause some Exceptions would have been taken to the Translation I shall by and by give the Reader a full account of the true Sense of the whole Period but will first make appear the Unreasonableness of the Exposition he makes of the last Clause of it Et sicut caeteri Barones debent interesse judiciis Curiae Regis quousque perveniatur ad diminutionem Membrorum vel ad Mortem The Meaning he conceives to be That the Bishops are required to be present in the King's Courts as other Barons are till they come to give Sentence as to dismembring or loss of Life Why he translates Curiae Regis in the plural Number the Kings Courts which is in the singular the King's Court and in this place hath always been understood of the High Court of Parliament in which the other Barons had an Interest to be present as Judges and in which Sense it is very often taken as is made clear by Mr. Petit in his learned Discourse of the ancient Rights of the Commons of England Pref. pag. 45. out of Gervasius Dorobornensis pag. 1653. who speaking of the Election of Arch-bishop Lanfrank hath these Words Eligentibus eum Senioribus ejusdem ecclesiae cum Episcopis ac principibus Clero Populo Angliae in Curia Regis in assumptione Sanctae Mariae and another Author saith it was Consensu Consilio omnium Baronum suorum omniumque Episcoporum Abbatum totiusque Populi Angliae commisit ei Dorobornensem ecclesiam That this was a Parliament we have little Reason to doubt and that it was called Curia Regis See also Inter com T. Hill 17 E. 3. penes remem in Scacc. 29. 32 H. 3. mem 12. 13. in dors rot claus Consideratum fuit in Cur. nostra toto Parliamento nostro c. Wherein Cur. Regis totum Parl. are but expressive of the same thing and not two Courts as I think I very well know that Curia Regis had various acceptations sometime it signified that Court of Justice that at those times followed the King's Person sometime it was taken for Aula Regis where Entertainments and Feasts were made as we read often in our Historians but I take it here to be understood of the High Court of Parliament for the Reasons before touched and many others if any shall seem to doubt of it Next why doth he leave out Judiciis whereas the Words are The Bishops as the other Barons ought to be present Judiciis curiae Regis in Trials in the King's Court viz. the Parliament he renders they are to be present in the King's Courts To help himself under the covert of an ill Translation savours not of that candour justly to be expected from so learned a Person and one that seeketh after Truth rather than Victory but since this Author is a subtile and no loose Writer give me leave to guess at the Reason of it He saw plainly that had he fairly rendred the Words The Bishops as other Barons have Right to be present in all Causes Sentences or Judgments in the King's Court or Parliament till the Cause Sentence or Judgment come to concern Life or Member the Word Judiciis in the plural Number must have referred to other Judgments in other cases and then the latter clause till Judgment or Sentence came to concern Life or Member would have been clearly restrictive as to cases of Blood for to be present at the Judgments of the Court till Judgment is Non-sense except the Words be applyed to different cases Now this Interpretation would have quite destroyed his main Undertaking who at last gives a Sense of the Words not only coincident with that given by the Author of the Bishops Rights to which I have before spoken but contrary to the Votes of the Lords in Parliament who though they seem to admit their Presence in the hearing such a case yet will not admit them to have any part or voice in the judging of it Beside I must needs take notice that 't is a strange Translation of the words Quousque perveniatur or in judicio perveniatur ad diminutionem Membrorum vel ad mortem Till they come to give Sentence when the Words more naturally import till Judgment may be fulfilled in the cutting off of Member or Life which is Execution But I shall anon give him a more proper Translation of the Words in the mean time will consider all his Subterfuges and cunning Evasions by which he would give colour to his Interpretation First from the occasion the Author of the Letter pag. 73. had said The Prelates affected a kind of Omnipotency he conceives the Author means in Judicature and I conceive he made that Supposition because he judged it for his Advantage to suppose so
they had a place to go to when 't was fit they should consult apart not that they always did so no more than it doth that the Prelates sate not among the Lords because they sometimes went apart and had a place to go to as well as the Commons We know that 7 Iacobi when Prince Henry was created Prince of Wales they all sate together in the Court of Requests and may do again when the King pleaseth I have now done with this rather curious than necessary Question which I had not touched upon had not Percy 's place in Parliament given me occasion a little to search into it Yet I think it not amiss here to insert the Prayer of the Commons and the form of the Proxy made by the Clergy to Sir Thomas Percy in 21 Rich. 2. memb 6. no. 9. as it is at large upon the Record that the Reader may be able to give a rational Judgment both what his Power was and how the Clergy were represented by him The Commons first pray the King that whereas divers Judgments and Ordinances before time made in the time of his Progenitors had been recalled and made null because the Estate of the Clergy were not present Et pour ceo prierent au Roy que pour surety de sa person salvation de son royaum les Prelates le Elergy ferroient un Procurateur avet povoir sufficient pour consentir en leur nome a toutes choses ordonances a justifier en cest present Parlament que sur ceo chacun seigneur spirituel diront pleinment son avis Sur quoy le dicts seigneurs spirituels commetterent leur plein povoir generalment a un lay personne nomerent en especial Thomas Percy Chevalier sur ceo baillerent au Roy une schedule contenant leur povoir la quelle nostre seigneur le roy receust commanda le dit Mardy estre entre de record en rolle de Parlement de quelle cedule la form sensuit Nos Thomas Cantuariensis Robertus Ebor. Archiepiscopi ac praelati Clerici utriusque provinciae Cantuar. Eborac jure ecclesiarum earundem habentes jus inter essendi in singulis Parlamentis Domini nostri Regis regni Angl. pro tempore celebrandis nec non tractandi expediendi in eisdem quantum ad singula in instanti Parlamento pro statu honore Domini nostri Regis nec non Regaliae suae ac quiete pace tranquillitate regni judicialiter justificand Venerabili viro Domino Thomae de Percy Mil. nostram plenarie committimus potestatem ita ut singula per ipsum facta in praemissis perpetuis temporibus habeantur It is observable in this Prayer the Commons recite Ordinances as well as Judgments to have been made null by reason of the Bishops Absence and comprehended not Judgments alone Now of what Latitude Ordinances were taken whether temporary or otherwise look'd upon as Laws is not very certain Secondly they desire such a Proctor as might have Power to confent to such things as should be done Thirdly they naming a Lay-man who had no Right of his own to sit there and giving the King a Schedule of their Procuration was enough to make their Right be preserved to them without any explicite Consent by their Proctor or perhaps his being so much as present at any Debate But I now proceed to observe how ready our Author is to pick what Advantage he can against the Author of the Discourse of Peerage from the words by him quoted out of the Manuscript History written by the Abbot of Molros in Scotland where the King of England sent Bishop Fox as I remember to treat with the King of Scotland Iames the Fourth then there touching a Match between the Children of those two Princes 'T is a Book to be seen in some few hands and writes of the Parliament in 21 R. 2. The Author of the Discourse pag. 20. tells you that that Manuscript Author blames the Prelates much for the Opinion they gave generally about the Revocation of Pardons but in this as in many other Authorities that make against him our Author curtails the Words and cites no more than makes for his turn The Words at large are these Dederunt ergo locum judicio sanguinis in hoc facto Ita quod dubitabatur à pluribus si non incurrerent in poenam irregularitatis pro negotio memorato unde contigit quod propter istud minus peccatum inciderent in aliud majus peccatum consequentur ut laicam personam constituerent procuratorem pro iisdem qui illorum vice consentirent ad judicium sanguinis dandum in isto Parliamento si necesse foret occasio emersisset The Prelates by this act of theirs gave Allowance or Countenance to Tryals of Blood insomuch that it was doubted by many whether they did not fall under the Penalty of Irregularity by reason of the foresaid business from whence it happened that instead of that lesser Offence they fell into a greater by Consequence in that they made a Lay-man their Proctor who in their Room might consent to a Judgment of Blood to be given in that Parliament if it were needful or occasion had happened I have translated dare locum fudicio sanguinis to give way or Allowance to a Judgment of Blood because it appears by the subsequent Words he meant them so The use the Author of the Discourse of Peerage makes of these Words is to shew that the Canons were not the only Cause that hindred their presence in II Rich. 2. For then when they had no Encouragement from the King or Lords then they ought not at any hand to be present in such Cases but here in 21. when they had any Allowance or Connivence as to the Laws against them then the Canons were neglected altogether His Inference seems to me rational and good Oh! but saith the Grand Questionist they were present in voting the Pardon to the Earl of Arundel revocable Under his Favour I think he is mistaken for the Book warrants no such matter only tells you that they gave a general Vote that Pardon 's granted in Parliament were revocable by the King by consequence whereof some of those who were pardoned in 11. were executed in 21. which Votes I hope might pass though the Parties concerned were not present and this meaning the book seems to enforce For first that Author saith it was a doubt amongst many whether that act did not make them incur the Penalty of Irregularity which would have been none had they personally by their Votes revoked the Pardon granted to the Earl of Arundel Secondly he saith by making a Proctor in that Case of Blood they committed a greater Fault than the former but certainly the making a Lay Proctor was not a greater Fault than actual Allowance and personal voting in Blood which that Author charges them with Lastly they made a
and Royalties and themselves Barons both blaming and threating them from God for so doing and involving themselves in Secular Matters This Author flourished in the time of Hen. II. ancient enough to know the truth and how they were look't upon in those days Moreover I do not find it can be made appear except conjecturally that they were ever present where they were not first named The Honour of their Function makes them be called before Dukes and Earls and being by that reason Pralati leâ—… no Man deprive them of their Right and by Post-Position make them post Lati. Lastly This Person being executed in 4 Edw. 3. as appears by the Record in 28 E. 3. Cot. p. 85. without any Accusation or Answer makes me believe the Bishops being Men of Piety would not by their Prefence countenance so illegal a thing tho they had had Right without entring their Protestation manifesting their dislike of it neither do I believe their Spirits so humble to suffer a Post-Position of their Titles But this whole matter will I conceive be better cleared if I shall acquaint the Reader with something more concerning this Roger Earl of March than hath yet come to this learned Person 's Knowledg In 5 Edw. 3. the very next Year after the summary Judgment was given against Mortimer and Matrevers a Commoner at the Complaint of the King we find inter Brevia Baronibus direct 5 E. 3. m. 33. penes rememorat Dom. Regis in Sâ—…cio that those Judgments were per Comites Barones alios Pares Regni not a Syllable of the Prelates nor can the word alios take them in since in the whole current of Records the Prelates were never placed after Earls and Barons And the alij Pares were either such as might be extraordinarily summoned an usual Practice at that time or they were the Barons Peers viz. Barones Minores besides the succeeding words clear the Point For there was in 4 E. 3. an Agreement and Concordia made by the Lords and Commons that such Proceedings should not for the future be drawn into Example to judg Commoners to death upon Summary Articles without any Concurrence from them Now this Concord was made by the Temporal Lords not by the Prelates but per nos Pares praedictos nec non Communitatem Regni in eodem Parliamento Now in 4 E. 3. the Reference was made to the Earls and Barons the Peers to whom of right such Judgments belonged and no Prelates comprehended and here they are called Pares praedicti Add to this Rot. Parl. 13 E. 3. Numb 8. Le grant des Graunts where an Aid was granted to the King then in war with France The Record saith Les Countes Barouns esteantzen dit Parlement Granteront pour eiix pour leur Peers de la terre qui teignent per Baronie la desme garb la disme tuzon la disme Aignel de touts leur demaignes Terres Now if the Prelates were understood by the word Peers in this place then it must be granted that the Earls and Barons taxed the Prelates who always taxed themselves and the inferiour Clergy in Convocation But the succeeding words will clear the matter which run thus in the same Record Et pour ceo quil fu aviis as Prelatez Countes Barouns autres Graunts que pour les ploite des besognes c. the Record is touching a speedy Supply to the King Here we see where the Bishops were concerned they were named which shews they were no more comprehended under Peers before than under the word Magnates in this Clause I could multiply Records to this purpose and am confident no clear Example can be given where they were necessarily comprehended after Counts and Barons The next Authority he quotes to weaken the Authority of those he calls Negative Precedents is the case of the Murther of Iohn Imperiall a publick Minister sent from Genoa This Case I conceive is not truly stated by the Author of the Letter and misapplied by the Grand Questionist The Point in question in the Record was what Offence the Murther of this publick Minister was which matter was referred to the Judges for their Advice who agreed that it was Treason within the Statute of 25 E. 3. This their Judgment was confirmed in Parliament whilst the Doubt was in Agitation among the Judges 't was not material who was there But after they had given their Sense what was meant by this Confirmation in Parliament is the next Question Whether more were meant than an approving of the Opinion given by the Judges by them drawn up in form and this may well be the meaning of that whole Proceeding which Practice is usual in our days but cannot be called a Judgment in Parliament tho it might be their Opinion But if you will rather believe it to be by Act of Parliament then must the Commons be Parties of whom we hear no mention nor any Statute to that purpose extant that I can find and in that Case the Bishops might have been present if they would and whether they were or not is not material Vid. Cot. 3. R. 2. N. 38. p. 183. Yea in Acts of Parliament when the Sentence comes to be given they are to withdraw as it was held by Mr. Edward Bagshaw a learned Reader of the middle Temple who for some Opinions by him held touching the Bishops was by the Power of Arch-bishop Laud suspended from proceeding in his reading Rushw. Hist. Coll. Tom. 2. p. 990. The next Precedent is in 5 E. 3. Which in conclusion will do him as little Service as the former The Author of the Letter pag. 7 8. tells us that that Parliament was summoned for redress of the Breach of the Law and the Peace of the Kingdom and the Record saith further that 't was to consult touching Lands in Guienne and the Marriage of the King in which the Bishops went away and returned no more I confess I know no reason but they might have staid it seems they thought otherwise being in all likelihood privy to some Actions to be treated there wherein Sentence of Blood might be pronounced But be their reason what you will their words are these Et pour ceo que avisefust a les dits Prelates qu'il nattient proprement a eux de Counseiller de la gard de la paix de chastiment de tels malvois s'allerent mesmes les Prelates Which words do not only import that they voluntarily went away but that it did properly behove them not to be present in such matters or to give Counsel for the Punishment of such Crimes The same word is used in 1 Hen. 4. Cot. p. 392. where the King by the mouth of the Arch-bishop of Canterbury declares that the Commons in that Case were only Petitioners and that all Judgments belonged to him and the Lords belonged that is the Commons had no Right thereto so here nattient proprement is that
are convicted for non-appearance He must have a new way of reasoning who considering that in 4 E. 3. the Earls and Barons are declared those Peers to whom such Judgments belong that in 5 E. 3. the Prelates declared that in a Case where Blood might be it belonged not to them to be present that in 7 R. 2. the Temporal Lords were only concerned in a Case where the Accusation was Treason with many other Cases that in 1 Hen. 4. the Lords are declared Judges in such matters that in 2 Hen. 4. in a like Trial or Judgment the Temporal Lords are all named who were the Judges that now in 7 Hen. 4. the Temporal Lords are again declared Judges and after all this that the Prelates should be deemed proper Judges in Cases of Blood upon bare Surmises and no direct Proof seems to me to savour of a Man wedded to an Opinion which he resolves to maintain when at last tho Precedents confirm what the Law is 't is that must determine the Controversy This I say in Relation to what Mr. Hunt objects This Precedent may in part serve to give answer to those Arguments drawn from the Identity of Names to the Identity of Right The Bishops saith the Grand Questionist are sometimes comprehended under the name of Grands Seigneurs and Peers therefore their Right is equal to all others who enjoy those Names How he attempts to make this good we shall see anon But first let him consider how weak a way of arguing this is we know nothing is more equivocal than Names Many are called Lords who had once that Name as Embassadors Chief Justice c. or such whose Fathers are Dukes so Earls Eldest Sons yet are indeed but Commoners so Baronagium comprehends all the whole Parliament Barons there are of the Cinque-Ports of the Exchequer and of some chief Towns as I have noted before from Mr. Selden so we are not to judg the Right from the Appellation but govern the Appellation by the Right The first Precedent he urges is pag. 96. where in 4 E. 3. an Act passed for Trial by Peers Cotton Numb 6. 'T is agreed unto by the King and all the Grands in full Parliament that tho the Lords had tried some who were not their Peers upon Accusation by the King in a summary way against Law it should be so no more If the Bishops were here comprehended under the Name of Grands so were the Commons too if it should be an Act of Parliament will he hence infer that the Commons have an equal Right with the Lords because they all are called Grands Who were esteemed Grands or Magnates see Matth. Paris in Anno Dom. 1100. Inhibitio ne qui Magnates viz. Comes Baro Miles seu aliqua alia notabilis Persona c. Here you see under Magnates are taken Earls Barons Knights or any other Person of Rank So Milites Comitatuum and Barones quinque portuum are called Magnates inter com brevia de term sctae trin Sct. Mich. An. 34. E. 1. penes rentem Dom. thesaurarij in Scaccario he that desires more let him consult Mr. Petyt's Learned Discourse of the ancient Rights of the Commons pag. 93 94. and in sundry other places I think therefore I may safely conclude this Point That where Grands are named alone there not only the Bishops but the Earls Barons Judges and Commons might be comprehended but where the Grands are mentioned after the Earls and Barons there the Bishops who ought first to be named shall never be taken in secondarily and by Implication Neither is it any thing to our Question whether it were for their Honour to be absent in some Cases as he intimates pag. 100. in the Case of Roger Mortimer but what the matter of Fact was Pag. 112. He would comprehend the Prelates among the Peers because in 4 E. 3. N. 3. The words are All the Peers Counts and Barons assembled in Parliament upon strict Examination do assent and agree that John Mautrevers is guilty of the Death of Edmund Earl of Kent Here he would infer that the Prelates were present at the Examination of that Capital Crime under the name of Peers because at that time there were no Dukes nor others of Superiour Degree to Earls but he doth not consider that the word Peers in this place doth only denote who those Peers then mentioned were Peers viz. Earls and Barons not Bishops as before Magnates viz. Comes Baro Miles c. As when we say a Noble-Man is to be tried by his Peers we understand only those that are truly so and not others that sometimes may be called so this is much cleared by the Record 2 Hen. 4. N. 30. The Lords Temporal by the Assent of the King adjudged Thomas Holland late Earl of Kent Iohn Holland late Earl of Huntington and others Traitors this Judgment was after the Parties were dead and but the second Successor after Edward the third Why did not now the Prelates come in and claim their Right Certainly they would have done it but that they knew the Law and Practice was against them what else is material in this Chapter hath been taken notice of by the Author of the Letter and others so that it needs no further Examination and I may safely conclude that where the Prelates are not named they are not understood Now that in this case the Bishops could not be meant by the word Peers is very plain from the Record it self For the fore-named Iohn Mautrevers being not in hold the said Peers do pray our Lord the King that search should be made for him throughout the Realm and a Reward promised Now if the Bishops were meant by the word Peers alone for Earls and Barons are named witness the Peers Earls and Barons then by Parity of Reason the said Peers should be meant only of the Bishops as if they alone had made the desire for the Apprehension of the said Matrevers and the Earls and Barons had been unconcerned which is absurd See 4 E. 3. Mem. 3. N. 3. Seld. Baron p. 13. Our Author concludes his third Chapter with the Case of Henry Hotspur the eldest Son of the Earl of Northumberland who for having levied War with others against the King was declared a Traitor being before slain in Battel by the King and Lords in full Parliament this was upon Friday the 18th of February upon the same Friday upon that Case and the Petition of the Earl Father to Henry and Examination of his Cause by the Lords as Peers of Parliament to whom such Judgment belonged for the King would then have referred the whole matter to the Judges he was declared innocent of Treason or Felony but only finable for Trespass at the King's Pleasure for which the said Earl gave Thanks to the King and Lords for their rightful Judgment and also at the same time purged upon his Oath the Arch-bishop of Canterbury the Duke of York
in Convocation as I have sufficiently I hope made appear pag. 19 20 c. of this Discourse As also that they had the Appellation of Barons and Peers not that they really were so which must have enobled their Blood but in respect of their Tenure in Capite sicut Baroniam or per Servitium Baroniae and for the most part so called by themseves only Our Author's Suggestion p. 151. that they sit in Parliament in a double Capacity as it is new so is it not solid He saith when they sit in the House in a judicial way they sit only in the Capacity of Temporal Barons and that this appears by the Constitution of Clarendon where the King requires their Attendance as his Barons But that in their Legislative Way they have a farther Capacity as representing a third Estate in Parliament I say this Fancy is new for I do not believe any before him look'd upon them as representing a third Estate in Parliament and not representing it I know they have been said to sit in respect of their Possessions which are Temporal in their own nature but not so when given Deo Ecclesiae but that they sate in any other Quality than Spiritual Persons I never heard nor can conceive Methinks if they have a Capacity to sit in the Quality of Temporal Barons they should also have a Capacity to change their Spiritual Robes and put on Temporal The Constitutions of Clarendon he saith require their Attendance in Judicature as his Barons and from thence would infer they sit in the Quality of Temporal Barons But how doth this follow I hope they may sit as Spiritual Barons But when all is done this Allegation of his is not sincere for the words are Debent interesse judiciis curiae Regis sicut caeteri Barones or cum caeteris Baronibus that is to say 't is their Duty to be present in Trials in the King's Court with the other Barons or as the other Barons are there present which words are far from inferring that they sit there in the Quality of Temporal Barons no more than the Judges rather that they sit not as Barons at all but only amongst them who are so It is evident therefore that his first Argument drawn from the Constitutions of Clarendon is not solid His next Suggestion that they are a third Estate in Parliament if by Parliament he mean their Convention in Convocation from the issuing out of Writs to the Guardian of the Spiritualties in the Vacancy of the Episcopal See I shall not contend with him only I think it from hence plain that they have Right to sit as Members of the Convocation properly where with the rest of the Brethren they make up a third Estate in which Writs there is generally a Clause of Praemunientes added to shew that other Clerks are to be chosen to sit in Convocation for which reason the Guardians in their Vacancy have their Writs directed to them lest the Convocation should not be full Now how this can prove them a third Estate in the Lords House I should be glad this Author would instruct me so that his Conceit of their sitting there in a double Capacity is of no weight and all his Precedents cited to that purpose might have been spared which do not in the least measure prove that the Bishops sit in the Lords House as a third Estate because Clerks shall be chosen to sit in Convocation by Writs directed to the Guardians of the Spiritualties where there are no Bishops or when they are beyond Sea rather evinces the necessity of a Convocation to meet in Consultation as to Ecclesiastical Matters which are only proper for their Function Lastly Let it be observed that his Quotations out of the Author of the Letter pag. 93. as to Doctor Standish his Case are mistaken the Author's words are the Judges said The Lords Spiritual have no Place in Parliament by reason of their Spiritualties in which respect in truth their place is in Convocation but by reason of their Temporal Possessions that is holding their Tempoporal Possessions in nature of Baronies The Scope of that Book is to shew that a Parliament might be held without them who indeed were no Barons but had liberty to sit among them by an Indulgence in respect of their Possessions And at last I am perswaded our Author will hardly be bound by that Opinion for if that be true how can they sit there as a third Estate if their Right to sit there be only as Temporal Barons This Authority is only from Kelway 7 Hen. 8. 184. See the Case at large in Burnet Our Grand Questionist goes on and endeavours to prove and clear that intricate matter as it hath been made touching the Interest the Clergy then had in Parliaments as well as Convocations but chiefly to prove that all the Interest they had in Parliaments was not meerly upon the account of their Temporal Baronies which the Bishops and many of the Abbots then had this he saith is the great but common mistake of the Author of the Letter 'T is first to be observed that he hath not proved that to hold Land by Baron-Service and to be a Baron is all one which by me is left doubtful as appears by what is said in the first Chapter of this Treatise Neither see I any reason why tenere per Baroniam should make a Baron more than Tenere per Militare Servitium should make a Knight Secondly That what he now saith is only a Pursuit of his precedent Conceit that the Bishops sit in the Lord's House in a double Capacity because as he saith there is a Distinction made even in Parliament between the several Estates of the Clergy and Laity How far this is argumentative and how far his Precedents warrant what he affirms I shall examine by and by only in the mean time would desire him to tell me whether they could come to Parliament at all without first receiving the King's Writ and in the next place Whether the King 's Writ imply any other Capacity than as Spiritual Persons holding their Possessions per Servitium Baroniae and voting among the Lords in respect of their Lands which are in their own nature Temporal Estates in the Hands of Spiritual Persons but by their Dedication to God made spiritual also which is as much as can be drawn from what Mr. Selden saith in the place quoted by our Author pag. 151. That they met as Counsellors in the Saxon's time in their Wittena Gemot I will not deny but whether by virtue of any Writ Summons or rather by general Allowance as Counsellors or what other way he cannot prove Records there are none or very few and Historians give but a dark account of those Times and things then one but which way soever they then sate certainly by William I. their right of sitting was much altered the Frame of things being in some measure altered also in so much that they