discovered and that the greatest Papists the greatest Catholicks in England were in the Design That the Queen and the Duke were in it and that several Lords by name my Lord Bellasis my Lord Powis my Lord Arundel of Wardour and others I believe my Lord Stafford was named but I cannot be positive in that At that time my Lords I did wish I had had a Commission in the new raised Levies that were Mustered on Hounslowe-Heath he told me he would procure me a Commission from the Duke of York and that there was a new Army to be raised to bring in the Catholick Religion but he did say he would tell me more particulars after my receiving the Sacrament of Secresie and I did understand by him that that Commission was not to be sent till the taking off the King was effected but being I was surpâ—ised at it he would not tell me the whole matter but he desired me to come and receive the Sacrament at Sir Philip Tyrwhytts in Blomesbury and then he would acquaint me with the whole Affair My Lords being in Berkshire about the Month of December 78 at Madam Halls in Shinefield Parish one Mr. Cuffil a Jesuit came into our Company It was about the Tryal of Coleman and Mr. Cuffil did then say That he thought Mr. Coleman was infatuated upon the Discovery of the Plâ—t to give notice to Mr. Harcourt Mr. Ireland and Mr. Fenwick and the other Jesuits to burn or secure their Papers and yet not to secure his own My Sister Hall was present at this Discourse and Mr. Cuffil did then further say that Bellarmine did draw a Sentence out of the Scripture to favour the Popes Authority of Excommunicating Depriving and Deposing Temporal Princes and the saying was this Quòd Papa habeat eandem Potestatem super Reges quam Jehoiada habuit super Athaliam And that there were other corroborating Testimonies among the Fathers for it Mr. Treby My Lords we desire to ask him whether ever he heard of Mr. Oats being in the Plot or being thought trust-Trust-worthy among them Mr. Jenison Yes my Lords I did L. H. Stew. When did you hear it and of whom Mr. Jenison Of my Brother Thomas Jenison the Jesuit L. H. Stew. When did he tell you so Mr. Jenison About the latter end of July 78. when there was a Discourse of a Design and that the greatest Papists were in it he said Mr. Oats a Parson newly come over to them was in that Design I answered I did wonder that he would trust a reconciled Enemy he answered That being once reconciled they were more Zealous and Trusty I submitted to his Opinion and instanced in Dr. Godwyn and Dr. Bayley that were Protestants and afterwards came over to the Church of Rome Mr. Treby We have done with him my Lord. L. H. Stew. Will your Lordship ask him any Questions my Lord Stafford L. Staff No my Lord. Sir Fr. Win. My Lords I would only observe the time when he says his Brother told him of the Design that it was about the time of the Mustering of the Forces upon Hounslowe-Heath and that he was then told Mr. Oats was in the Plot I only observe it now for the end of the Case in point of time L. H. Stew. He says it was in July Mr. Jenison It was two Months after the Mustering of the Forces about the latter end of July L. H. Stew. Before the Discovery Mr. Jenison Yes L. H. Stew. Did you know Oats at that time Mr. Jenison No my Lords I was not acquainted with him Sir John Trevor Did you not see him then Mr. Jenison Yes I saw him at Irelands Chamber Sir John Trevor When was that Mr. Jenison The latter end of April or the beginning of May. L. H. Stew. You say you did not know him in July How then can you say you saw him before Mr. Jenison I did not know him I only saw him come into Irelands Chamber and whisper for sometime two or three minutes and then they told me that that was Mr. Oats a Parson newly come over to them a brisk jolly man and worthy my acquaintance L. H. Stew. Is this the same man you saw there Mr. Jenison My Lords I can't remember his face for he was gone out when I was told of him L. H. Stew. Why you know Mr. Oats now Mr. Jenison Yes I do L. H. Steward Do you know him to be the same man that you saw then Mr. Jenison I can't tell that Sir John Trevor My Lords he says Mr. Oats only came in for three or four minutes and his back was towards him and his Brother told him when he was gone who it was Mr. Jenison I only knew his Name from my Brother Mr. Treby And I presume your Lordships will observe this was at the very time of the Jesuits Consult Sir John Trevor We desire this Gentleman may tell your Lordships who his Brother is and what Profession he is of Mr. Jenison My Brother was a Jesuit brought up at St. Omers L. H. Steward Your Brother is dead and died in Newgate Mr. Jenison Yes he did so L. H. Steward Pray recollect your self again When was it that you saw the man they called Oats at the Jesuits Chamber Mr. Jenison My Lords It was in the year 78 the latter end of April or the beginning of May. And I will tell you why I apprehend it to be that time My Brother being a Priest lived with Sir Phillip Tyrwhitt in Lincolnshire and in that year in Lent he came to Town with my Lady and that Family and he and I used to Dine together at the Fish Ordinary at Pedleys And about three weeks or a month after that time when he came to Town I was at Mr. Irelands Chamber and there was a Gentleman whom they told me was Oats L. H. Stew This you say was the latter end of April or beginning of May 78 for the time is material upon your Oath you say it Mr. Jenison Yes my Lords I do L. H. Stew. You say it was at Ireland's Chamber Mr. Jenison Yes my Lords Sir Fr. Win. My Lords will you give us leave to ask him one short Question because some of the Gentlemen doubt of it we would ask it again what his Brother was whether he was a Jesuit or no Mr. Jenison I have heard him own it my Lords L. H. Stew. Whom do you call next Gentlemen Mr. Treby If it please your Lordships we shall in the next place produce our Evidences that are matters of Record and we desire your Lordships advice and direction how we are to minister the same whether your Lordships will have them all read 〈…〉 of them and let them be left with your Lordships L. 〈…〉 〈…〉 Records are they Mr. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 are the Records of the Attainder of Coleman Ireland and the other Conspirators L. H. Stew. The Fact is so notorious that they were Attainted and Executed That the reading of a word will serve the turn Sir
L. Stafford Of Dr. Oats that was read in your Lordships House I heard it L. H. Stew. Let us understand your Lordships demands that when my Lords are withdrawn I may know what Questions to put to them and acquaint them with your desires The one is the Journal of the Lords House which is always before their Lordships and you might have had Copies long since The next thing you ask is an Affidavit of Dugdale if this Affidavit is entred into the Journal that supplies your Demands if it be not entred there where shall we find it L. Stafford I do not know L. H. Stew. Does your Lordship think all this matter must stay till we can find a loose Affidavit that we know not where 't is filed L. Stafford I know it was before the Council and I believe my Accusers have it I desire the Gentlemen of the House of Commons may produce it Sir John Trevor I have seen none nor have none L. Stafford The one was taken the 24. of December this time two year and the other the 29. L. H. Stew. My Lord will your Lordship give me leave to tell you you ought to be provided with some particular exception and not to make your demand in general If your Lordship will say Dugdale did swear such and such things which are contrary to what he now affirms we know what to make of it but to hunt after an Affidavit that we know not where to find to pick something out of it that I do not understand L. Stafford I appeal to my Lord of Essex and my Lord Bridgewater whether they did not examine me the first time upon one or two Affidavits of Dugdale L. H. Stew. Suppose it be not to be found my Lord L. Stafford Then I must have patience and submit L. H. Stew. Can you tell wherein he swore quite blank contrary to what he swears now L. Stafford My Lord I conceive it was never denied before but your Lordships may do what you please L. H. Stew. Well my Lord let us go on to the next The Affidavits of Dugdale if they be entred on the Journal may be ready if not thenâ— shall acquaint their Lordships and they will direct what is fit in the case L. Stafford Then there is the Affidavit of Oats before my Lord Chief Justice upon which I was committed the next day which was Friday it was read in your Lordships House L. H. Stew. I believe that is entred upon the Journal and so will be ready to be used L. Staff I do hope to make it evidently appear thereby that he is forsworn I desire two Affidavits more that were taken before the Justices of the Peace of Middlesex who examined Mr. Turbervile twice L. H. Stew. What Justice of the Peace L. Staff Mr. Warcupp Sir William Poultney and Sir Thomas Stringer I desire I may not be misunderstood I do not desire to have them to instruct my Counsel or advise with them upon them but I cannot make my Defence without them L. H. Stew. Those are voluntary extrajudicial Affidavits that no body is bound to keep L. Staff They were spoken of in the Votes of the House of Commons L. H. Steward What say you Gentlemen to it Sir Fran. Winn. My Lords because my Lord at the Bar is pleased to insinuate as if we knew where those Affidavits are which he seems to desire and because your Lordship was pleased to say that the Commons in Parliament are the Grand-Jury of the Kingdom I desire to say one thing That certainly it will not be required from us to produce and publish the several Facts and Circumstances that induced us to impeach him if it shall be demanded by the Prisoner at the Bar. L. H. Steward I wish you would answer the Question and not argue upon it whether those Affidavits of Turbervile may not be produced for 't is my Lords Exception against your Witnesses that he swears several ways and by those Affidavits of Turbervile he intends to disprove him in what he hath said to day Sir Fr. Win. My Lords the House of Commons never administer an Oath and therefore it is not to be said to us but my Lord Stafford must go to the particular Offices where they are to be found L. H. Stew. I do not ask you where my Lord should find them but whether if they can be found you can object any thing why they should not be produced and read Mr. Serj. Maynard When they are produced we will give an Answer L. Stafford My Lords I am informed this is the substance of the Affidavit That Turbervile did swear before two Justices of the Peace whether they be of the House of Commons or no I cann't tell that he spoke with me at Doway and in Paris in the years 73. and 77. and now he says 72. and 75. I am informed my Lords and I appeal to the House of Commons they are all Persons of Honour and Worth if my Information be mistaken I beg their Pardon and yours for 't whether he did not mend it after he had sworn it L. H. Stew. Are these all you do demand L. Stafford Yes my Lords Whether this was true or no I don't know â— is what I have been told I appeal to the House of Commons who are all worthy persons I do not believe I have an Enemy among them they know whether I speak true or no. L. H. Stew. When will your Lordship be ready to make your Defence L. Stafford As soon as ever I have them I will not stay a minute a moment an instant I desire not to shew my Counsel nor any one for my Tryal is a thing that I have long desired Therefore I would not be mistaken as if I would put off the Cause I am innocent and shall be so while I live and hope I shall make it appear so I beg if this be a matter of Law whether I may have them or not that my Counsel be heard to it L. H. Stew. This is a matter of Fact L. Stafford I insist upon it as things without which I cannot make my Defence I am innocent and I suppose not one of the House of Commons nor one of your Lordships will debar me of that by which I may make my Innocency appear Lord High Steward You cannot know my Lords pleasure till they are withdrawn Sir William Jones Before your Lordships withdraw I hope you will please to hear us a few words which we think may be for the Service of this Court. My Lords what Evidence is before your Lordships 't is in your Lordships pleasure what of that you shall please to communicate to my Lord Stafford but for this Evidence he speaks of as remaining in our hands and which he takes upon himself to appeal to us for admits of another consideration My Lords if we were conscious of any thing in these Affidavits that were for my Lords Advantage and knew where they were we would
been told this that I speak here and I desire it may be proved Lord High Steward If you are bound up so that you cannot consent I can t help it Mr. Serj. Maynard Let him put the Fact my Lords and not suppose and imagine Things and then raife Questions L. H. Stew. It is usual in these Cases for the Gentlemen of the House of Commons to stay till the Lords are withdrawn and expect their Lordships Resolution perhaps they may so order it that you need not go back Sir Will. Jones I desire before your Lordships withdraw that it may be taken notice of by your Lordships that for the matter of the variation of the year we do admit it My Lord is not pleased to mention any other particular matter of the Affidavit but only says in general that it is contrary to what he says to day if my Lord would tell us wherein perhaps we should admit it or answer it or take it into further consideration but to make so general an Allegation and give your Lordships no particular account we submit whether such a suggestion ought to be regarded Lord High Steward Is there any further variation besides the variation of the year L. Staff I cannot say there is my Lord I do not know it but I do really believe in my Conscience there is from what I have heard but however I insist upon it and demand your Judgment Sir Fr. Win. My Lords I humbly desire one word as to the Objection that hath been made that he hath prayed your Lordships to grant him the sight of such and such Papers The nature of this Cause my Lords we know is such that there was never the like number of Papers known as to the General Plot and my Lord that is the Prisoner at the Bar may as well demand to morrow such a particular Paper and the next day another that he hath heard of in the General Plot and where will the end of this be So that if the thing be granted upon the variation of the time that it was immediately rectifyed and he cannot produce any grounds that may satisfie your Lordships why he should have that Paper you may as well suffer him to demand any other Paper after and so never end the Cause L. H. Stew. Your Lordship hath been told and you shall find it that you shall have as fair and equal an Hearing as is possible and nothing shall be denied you that is just and reasonable to safe your Life or make your Defence But pray my Lord for so much as is upon the Journal which you may resort unto you may easily know what answer my Lords will give to that but for this other thing if it be only the variety you alledge of the Time and the Year and you do desire it to look for other Exceptions and you pray the help of the Lords to see such a Paper that you might make inquiry after other varieties Do you think they are to help you to find out Exceptions to the Witnesses L. Stafford I do not desire their Lordships to help me to find out Exceptions but I have told your Lordships of one Exception to the Affidavit which these Gentlemen acknowledge to be true and the other Affidavit is that he Swears I spoke to him at Doway in the year 72 or 73 which I can disprove and then I say he Swearing several things false he is no credible Witness L. H. Stew. 'T is admitted to your Lordship that he did mistake the time L. Stafford It is admitted that he said he spoke to me at Doway L. H. Stew. How very an easie matter were it to expedite this Process by allowing the Prisoner his demand in this particular Sir Will. Jones I never saw it and a great many of the Managers say they never saw it L. Stafford These Gentlemen say I did it to put off the Cause I am far from it for though I am in a condition very unfit to manage my Defence faint and weak with speaking so long and hardly able to speak any more yet I desire to finish this night and if I see it now it will be enough I shall not desire to have a Copy to advise with my Counsel or any body else L. H. Stew. Pray Gentlemen of the House of Commons will you observe my Lord as weary as he is would make an end of the matter presently if you would but send for the Affidavit Mr. Foley My Lords it is not in our hands here if the House of Commons will order it it may be done we cannot order it of our selves Mr. Powle My Lords this is a Paper that does properly belong to the House and I do think that none of us here that are Managers for this Trial will undertake it shall be delivered without resorting to the House for their Opinion for though I do verily beleive and am fully persuaded that what this Noble Lord at the Bar does object will not appear to be so For I think there is not any thing of my Lord Staffora's speaking with this Witness at Doway mentioned therein yet how far the Presidents of this may reach in other Cases I think is worthy the Consideration of the House And we cannot presume to offer any thing in it to your Lordships until you be pleased to give us leave to go and resort thither Then the Lords withdrew and after an Hours and an Halfs space returned and Proclamation was made for Silence L. H. Steward My Lord Viscount Safford my Lords have considered of the Demands you made and my Lords upon the Debate of the Reasons of your Demands are come to this Resolution Your Lordship did demand in the first place that you might have a sight of the Journal and have the Papers lodged in the House of Peers My Lords take notice that this Demand which your Lordship now makes is a Demand that was granted you long ago about two years since you have an Order entred upon the Books that your Lordship should have Copies of every thing in that House and if your Lordship have not taken out Copies and if any thing is missing to your Lordship that is yet there extant 't is your Lordships fault However my Lords will command their Journals to be brought hither that your Lordship may make that use of them that may be of most profit to you For the other Demand touching the Affidavit supposed to be taken from Turbervile by the Justices of the Peace that my Lords upon Consideration had do find that there is no Obligation at all upon them as a Court to concern themselves in that Matter And therefore my Lords have made no Order in that Point but your Lordship must come provided as well as you can and the Court can do no more to help you in it For the rest my Lords did take notice that your Lordship said before they were withdrawn That you found your self very Faint and Weary and
I do now L. Stafford I desire my Witnesses may be called to prove it for I conceive it is very material My Lords does he deny it Mr. Dugd. I do say there was a Consult at Tixal in August but I did not charge your Lordship positively to be there then nor with more than I do now L. Staff I think you did and I have witnesses to prove it And 't is impossible for any man living to defend himself if persons shall swear as they suppose think or remember I tell your Lordships I was not there in all the month of August L. H. Stew. Does your Lordship intend to call any Witnesses L. Stafford My Lords I thought I had more Witnesses than I have But I have two here if your Lordships will hear them that he did swear I was at Tixal in August L. H. Stew. Who are they L. Stafford My Daughter Winchester for one and a Lady that is my Kinswoman for another L. H. Stew. Let them stand up they are not to be sworn You don't except against them Gentlemen Sir Will. Jones No let him prove what he can Lady Marchioness of Winchester He did swear that he was to receive his Orders from L. H. Stew. Madam your Ladyship is not upon your Oath but you are under all the obligations of Truth and Honour in the world Lady March Winch. My Lords by the Grace of God I will not speak an untrue word Sir Will. Jones We desire to know this Ladies Name L. Stafford It is my Daughter Winchester Lady March Winch. This Stephen Dugdale did say at the Tryal of Sir George Wakeman That he was to receive Orders from my Lord in June or July when he was to come down and that my Lord was at a Consult at Tixal in August L. H. Stew. Did he say positively in August or in August and September Lady March Winch. No he did not name September Mr. Dugdale My Lords I might say my Lord was to come down then but not that ever I said he was there but as now L. H. Stew. But she says you did not name September L. Stafford Here is another Lady Sir Will. Jones Who is she my Lord L. Stafford Mrs. Howard Daughâ—er to Sir George â—lount and married to Mr. Howard a Kinsman of mine she is now a Widow Mrs. Howard My Lords at the Tryal of Sir George Wakeman Dugdale was asked to be positive in the Month my Lord Stafford came down And he said he came down in June or July but he said the Consult was in August wherein my Lord Stafford was L. H. Stew. That Lady likewise says the same That you would not be positive as to June or July but as to August you were positive that my Lord was there Mr. Dugd. No my Lords I only said in August there was a Consult and in June or July my Lord was to come down Mrs. Howard I do assure you we came to that Tryal on purpose to observe every word he said about my Lord Stafford and we have kept it in our memories ever since L. H. Stew. What do you say Mr. Dugdale to it Mr. Dugd. I suppose there was a great many more at that Tryal than these two worthy Ladies and I suppose some of them may remember I said no more than I do now I said then my Lord was to come down at that time and so I said several times but not positively that he was there till the end of August or the beginning of September L. Stafford My Lords I do positively averr here are two Witnesses that say he swore I was there at the Consult in August Now it concerns me to prove that I was not there in August since he said absolutely I was there in August and I assure you I can prove I was not there not all the whole Month. In the beginning of August I came from London from my own House on Tuesday or Wednesday the 6. of August I went to my Lord Bellasis's and that night I went to George Porters the next night I went onwards towards Bath when I was there I went over and staid with my Noble Lord the Marquess of Worcester there I staid two or three days and I went thence to another place hard by there and then I came back again to Bath and went back again afterwards to my Lords House and the first or second of September I went from my Lords House to London Then it this be acknowledged I need say no more if not I 'll prove it by sufficient Witnesses So then I was not there the whole Month of August and the beginning of September he says he spoke with me I was not there till the 12. of September Now I beseech your Lordships how that could possibly be the beginning of September I submit to you whether then he be a Witness fit to be heard that shall sweat positively what hath no colour of truth in it I also leave to you And if they object I was not where I say I was in August I will prove it And for the 20. and 21. of September I do own something of that and I shall prove to your Lordships what it was L. H. Stew. Call what Witnesses you please my Lord. L. Stafford My Daughter proves when I went out of Town Lady March Winch. My Lords it was on a Tuesday my Father went to my Lord Bellasis he dined there and then went on to George Porters L. Stafford That I was at Bath I shall call Witnesses L. H. Stew. My Lord you should prove when you first came to Tixal my Lord Aston's L. Staff Will that satisfie your Lordship L. H. Stew. Me 'T is not me you are to satisfie but my Lords and the Gentlemen of the House of Commons L. Staff Then I do own to your Lordships I came the first time the 12 th of September to Tixal L. H. Stew. That was the first day you were there L. Staff That Year my Lord it was Sir Will. Jones Prove it L. Staff Does he deny that my Lords L. H. Stew. Do you deny that my Lord came first to Tixal the 12. of September Or do you know he was there before Mr. Dugdale My Lords I have positively spoke to no day but only to the 21. or 20. of September L. Staff Where is my Lord Marquess of Worcester's Servant L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford it will be best for your Lordship to produce all the Witnesses you have and not to leave any thing undone that you can prove L. Staff But I beseech your Lordships I may ask one Question if I shall name any of the House of Peers as my Witnesses does that exempt them from being Judges L. H. Stew. No my Lord. If your Lordship have any Witnesses among any of my Lords here they may very well testifie for you and yet remain still in the capacity of your Judges for my Lord of Strafford had a great many Witnesses that were Peers Sir John Trevor We
Godfrey said he I hear he was an active Justice of the Peace against the Papists and he made this inference We had need have a care what we do for we shall be all sacrificed Sir Will. Jones My Lords will your Lordships be pleased to observe that yesterday there was some Witnesses called to disparage Mr. Dugdale And the first man as I can remember was a very substantial Gentleman called Mr. Robinson I think he was not able to give an account of his Employment but he was a Gentleman that lived upon his Money I remember those were his words My Lords we shall call without telling you what they will say some Witnesses to prove the Condition of this Gentleman what Reputation he is of and what is his Conversation And we first call my Lady Gerard. L. Stafford My Lords pray give me leave to say one word but 't is no great matter 't is not worth the speaking L. H. Stew. What can you say my Lord L. Stafford It was only a thought of my own not worth troubling your Lordships with Then the Lady Gerard appeared and was sworn L. H. Stew. Does your Ladyship know one William Robinson Lady Gerard. No my Lords Sir W. Jones He hath several Names we desire he may be called L. H. Steward Call Robinson the Upholsterer He was called but appeared not Sir W. Jones I perceive we mistake one Lady for another We desire Mr. Booth a Member of the House of Commons may be Sworn VVhich was done in his place L. H. Steward My Lord Stafford send for Robinson your Witness L. Stafford I believe he is here but if he be not one that belongs to me I have sent to see for him whether he be a good or a bad Witness I do not know personally Sir VV. Jones Mr. Booth knows him very well he saw him yesterday and so we may venture to ask him the Question L. H. Steward Did you see Robinson the Witness yesterday Mr. Booth Yes my Lords I did L. H. Stew. Do you know him Mr. Booth My Lords I do know him very well though I have not seen him often for indeed my Lords he behaved himself so the first time that I saw him that I believe I shall never forget him My Lords I am better acquainted with his Character than his Person though I know the man very well and truly the first time that ever I was in his company he gave me no incouragement ever to desire it again for if you please I 'le tell you how I came to know him He told your Lordships that he came into Cheshire at a Cocking it was at that time that I saw him for upon the Sunday after the Cocking I was invited to a Neighbours about two miles from home We were set down to Dinner and we had not sat long but this man comes into the Room where we were there was an empty place at the lower end of the Table and he sits him down and began a discourse to ridicule the Lords day in such a manner as I never heard the like And the rest of his discourse was full of a great deal of Contempt of God Almighty and all that was sacred All his discourse at Dinner was very prophane It was not in mine own House and because it was not taken notice of by the Master of the House and he coming under the protection of a young Gentleman I did not what else I should for I should have made him hold his tongue or have used it to better purpose The whole of his discourse was so Atheistical and prophane that I never heard the like in my life When dinner was done he used a great many inticements to draw the Company into play by asking what would they say if they should see such and such things to be done and at length he pulls out a great many Dice out of his pocket and behaves himself in that manner as people do that would draw in others to play and they that had better skill in it than I said that they were all false When I saw this I desired him to leave our Room or to forbear for said I if this be the entertaintment of the day I must leave the Company then they commanded him to desist This is all that I do know of my own knowledge But I shall acquaint you what I believe for I have heard it from very considerable persons whom I dare credit for the man run much in my mind because I never saw so ill a man in my life Coming home I was speaking to some of my Family says I Yonder I met with the strangest fellow that I ever saw in my days he is fitter to be hanged than any thing else Oh Sir said they there is such a fellow hath cheated I know not how many at the Town where the Cocking was The next day I think it was or shortly after I had occasion to go to that Town and many people came and complained to me of his Cheats to a very great degree They asked me what they should do said I you have nothing to do but indite him for a Cheat. Why said they will you take no course with him Said I What course can I take I am turned out of the Commission of the Peace else I know enough to bind him to the good behaviour After this I had occasion to go into Lancashire and there I found he was better known than trusted There were very loud Complains against him and some would have given Twenty pound to meet with him I heard afterwards he went into Staffordshire and he changed his Name where ever he went but he soon discovered himself and all thereabouts he goes for a notorious Cheat. This is all I can say of him L. Stafford My Lords Be pleased to give me leave to say one word I assure you if I had thought this man had been such a fellow as now he proves I would not have brought him before you I never knew what he was in my life nor heard of his Name till Saturday last L. H. Stew. It may be so my Lord. But your Lordship must take notice that this is the man that gave the most important Evidence that Dugdale should corrupt him to swear against you for money L. Stafford Give me leave to observe upon that my Lords That if Dugdale knew him to be a cheating fellow he might think him the liker to take money to forfwear himself Sir Will Jones My Lords we shall not reply now but observe anon how this cheating fellow comes to swear for my Lord at this time But we desire an Honourable Peer of this House may give some account of him and that is the Noble Lord the Earl of Maclesfeld I think he may be known to your Lordships Then the Earl of Maclesfeld stood up L. H. Stew. Pardon me my good Lord my Lord must be sworn E. of Maclesfeld Before I am sworn I would know of your Lordships
after having required from him all possible obligations of Secrecy he told him plainly what great benefits would accrew to himself and what advantage to the Catholick Cause if he would make himself and the Nation happy by undertaking to kill the King of England who was an Heretick and consequently a Rebel to God Almighty My Lord Stafford did believe the Witnesses did embrace this proposal warmly and therefore directed him to prepare to go for England and to go before hand from Paris to Deep where he would meet him and go over with him But it seems my Lord Stafford met with some diversion for he did not keep his word with him in coming and so this Gentleman being disappointed went over without him but fearing to be called upon to the same Service he returned back again suddenly and went into the French Army My Lords We shall produce these Witnesses against the Lord at the Bar and when they have proved to your Lordships what I have opened any one who was not acquainted with the Popish party would believe they would be at a loss how to acquit themselves from this Charge All manner of foul and indirect practices have been used by them to Terrifie to Corrupt and to Scandalize our Witnesses all manner of Objections have been made to our Evidence If the Witness does not come up to speak directly to every Point we are told he says nothing at all if he speaks directly they cry he is not to be believed Thus they have a ready answer to every Witness that has been or ever shall be produced either that he says nothing Material or that nothing that he says ought to have any Credit But we doubt not by this Tryal before your Lordships if we cannot stop their mouths at least to convince all the World besides of the reality of this Plot. It will be no wonder if their Confidence goes on still to frame Cavils They are used to scandalize the Government and they cannot give it over How often has His Majesty under his Great Seal published and declared this Conspiracy How often has he press'd His Parliaments to go on to bring the Conspirators to Punishment and at the opening of this very Parliament he says plainly That he does not believe himself safe from their Designs Your Lordships also have Voted the unquestionable Truth of the Plot and so have the Commons yet these men are so hardy as still to deny the plainest Truth so confirm'd as this hath been Nay My Lords Their Malice goes yet farther for they have been so Bold as to whisper up and down and industriously to spread Reports before the Trial as if this Lord at the Bar and the rest who are Impeached should certainly be acquitted We do hope to be able to detect the Authors of this great Scandal and the Commons doubt not of your Lordships Concurrence to assist them in bringing them to their deserved Punishment This is sure the first time that ever any sort of men presumed to Reflect upon the Justice of this High and Noble Court Your Ancestors my Lords did by their Honour Courage and Justice preserve our Ancestors The advantage of which We who are descended from them do now enjoy and We shall never have occasion to doubt in the least but that your Lordships will tread in their steps You have in your hands a great Opportunity to make your Zeal for Truth and for the Protestant Religion famous to Posterity No Artifice or Malice can Create the least Jealousie in us that ever your Lordships should shew any Partiality or Injustice to the Commons of England To your Judgement this Cause is submitted and when we have your Judgement we doubt not but we shall drive Popery out of this English World My Lords We shall go on to the proof of our Cause and I hope this will be a happy day to us and the whole Protestant Interest Then Mr. Treby also one of the Committee appointed for the Management of the Evidence began as followeth My Lords THese two Learned Gentlemen have fully discharged their Province I shall proceed to call our Witnesses to give their Testimony But before we produce them your Lordships will be pleased to take notice that our Evidence will consist of Two Parts general and particular the general to shew the Universal Conspiracy the particular to shew what special part this Noble Lord the Prisoner at the Bar had in it And though in the first part my Lord Stafford may not be particularly named yet that Evidence will be pertinent and proper for us to give in this Trial of my Lord Stafford for we charge him not with the Private Treason wherein he with his immediate Complices only might be concerned but it is a Treason of the Popish Faction or at least the Principal and Active Papists We lay it in our Articles of Impeachment That there was an Execrable Plot contrived and carried on by the Papists and that the Conspirators acted diverse Parts and in diverse places beyond Sea as well as here It was a Treason that did bestâ—ide two Lands England indeed was the thing aimed at the destruction of the Religion Government and Liberty of England was the End but the Means and Instruments were not Collected here only but part of them were to be brought in from abroad This is an Enterprise too extensive to be intirely manag'd by a Single Nobleman And though we look upon my Lord Stafford as a great Malefactor yet we cannot think him so great a Man as to be able within his own Sphere to compass this whole Design Should we not take this course of Evidence first to prove the General Plot it might be a great and just objection in my Lords mouth to say You charge 〈◊〉 with a Design of Subverting the Kingdom how is that possible to be undertaken by me and those I have had opportunity to converse and confederate with a mighty part of the Catholick World had need be engaged for such a purpose My Lords If this would be a material Objection from this Lord then will it be requisite for us to obviate and prevent the Objection by shewing first that there was such a grand and universal design of Papists in which this Lord was to co-operate for his distinct share though perhaps when we descend to our particular Evidence it will appear that his part hath been great and manag'd with malice as great as any My Lords We shall begin with a Witness a Gentleman whose Education has given him the opportunity of knowing the inside of their Affairs and we presume he will give you a satisfactory account his name is Mr. John Smith Lord High Steward What do you call him to Gentlemen Mr. Treby To the General Plot my Lords Lord Stafford May it please your Lordships I know not who he is nor his Name I humbly beseech your Lordships that this Witness who ever he be and all the rest that have any thing to
witness against me may look upon me face to face according to the words of the Statute I humbly beseech your Lordships to grant me this which I take to be according to Law and that each may give his Evidence alone and that both against me and for me one may not know what the other says Lord High Stew. My Lord You shall have all the fair proceeding that can be Lord Stafford The Law says my Accusers must look me face to face I desire to have the words read Lord High Steward Your Lordship may see him there where he stands up Then Mr. Smith turned and looked upon my Lord Stafford Lord Safford I do see him but do not know him Lord High Steward Swear him Clerk The Evidence that you shall give in the Tryal of William Viscount Stafford shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God and the Contents of this Book Lord High Steward Your Lordship observes he is not brought as a particular Witness against your Lordship but to prove the general Design of your Party Lord Stafford 'T is still concerning me Lord High Steward Look upon my Lord Stafford which he did and now tell your Evidence Mr. Treby This is Mr. Smith my Lords And that which we would examine this Witness to is the general Design of the Plot what knowledge he hath had of it here or beyond Sea the Gentleman is able to understand the general Question Mr. Smith My Lords I remember very well when I went first into France I came acquainted with Abbot Montague Father Gascoyn and several other Popish Priests and Jesuits who often discoursed with me and told me if I would make my self a Catholick I should have an Employment amongst them there and afterwards in England for they did not doubt but the Popish Religion would come in very soon upon which I asked his Lordship the Abbot one day what reason he had to believe it he told me two reasons first that they did not doubt but to procure a toleration of Religion by which they should bring it in without noise and secondly that the Gentry that went abroad did observe the novelty of their own Religion and the Antiquity of theirs and the advantages that were to be had by it These Reasons Abbot Montague gave me There was one Father Bennet and others that told me the chief reason was their party was very strong in England and in a few Years they would bring it in right or wrong All this would not prevail with me to turn Papist and I lived among them several Years At last I had a design to go to Rome and as I went I had a design to go to Provence and so into Italy where there was one Cardinal Grimaldi coming thorough the Town and the Jesuits having a great School there I was curious to go to the School and they were very desirous I should tarry for some time in the Town I did and they made much of me and told me much to the same substance what assurances they had of their Religion coming into England At last they had a desire I should discourse with the Cardinal which I did and he made much of me and he it was that perverted me to the Romish Religion upon this the Cardinal shewed me a pair of Hangings that were in his House which he said did belong to the Queen Mother and were bought in Paris and he told me he was acquainted with many of the Nobility in England and that he had great assurance the Popish Religion would prevail and he told me there was but one in the way and though that man was a good natured man yet they could not so far prevail upon him but that to accomplish their designs they must take him out of the way but at last I left this place and went to Rome where I lived some years in the English Jesuits Colledge there and when I had lived there five years I came to be Prefect of several Rooms there which are the Scholars Lodgings and places of Study I have heard it there often disputed in their own Colledge both preach'd and privately exhorted that the King of England was an Heretick and that there was no King really reigning and who ever took him out of the way would do a meritorious action Lord High Steward Who was that that said so Mr. Treby Name the persons Mr. Smith Father Anderton Rector of the Colledge who was a very good Scholar Father Mumford and one Father Campion but chiefly one Father Southwell one of the chief of the Jesuits And I doubting of the truth of that Opinion they did shew me several of their Books there and directed me to some passages of Mariana Vasquez and Bellarmine which I have since published to the world wherein they did assert it as a true Doctrine and as Christian Doctrine what the Fathers told me and this was never condemned at Rome Besides my Lords when I was coming from Rome with my Faculty and License signed by Cardinal Barberino who generally conducts or causes to be conducted all Papists to take their leave of the Pope and before we came away for there were five or six of us together for a whole month these Fathers were exhorting us That we were not obliged to obey the King of England and that in all private Confessions we were to instruct all persons that we thought were capable of any design That they should use all their endeavours for promoting the Popish Religion I coming into England made my application to Dr. Perrott who belonged to the Portugal Ambassador and was chief of the Popish Clergy in England I was kept there some months to say Mass in his Chappel and afterwards I was sent into the North where there were abundance of Jesuits and Fryers to one Mr. Jenison's House where knowing the Principles of these people I made it my business to rout these Jesuits away especially out of Mr. Jenison's House who had a Kinsman of his own that was a Jesuit and used to serve him in his House and great complaint was made against me and there was one Mr. Smith otherwise Serjeant in the North who gave me intimation of it ond to whom I wrote to satisfie him and the Clergy of the grounds and reasons why I routed them away which if he be in England now he can justifie Upon this I received a smart Letter as a kind of Reprimand for my doing so and he told me That though they did agree with me in Doctrine yet they would endeavour what they could to bring in the Popish Religion And taxed me sharply for appearing against it I told him how the Jesuits perverted the Duke of York and that by that means they would be the chief men in England though there were none of their Order till Queen Elizabeths time Besides My Lords in Rome I saw Coleman's Letters and read them once a month as I believe wherein he
when we come to the particulars Sir Franc. Winn. My Lords with your Lordships favour we have opened our Case first that we would go on with the general while we are upon that head we will only call those that speak to the general but it may happen that one Witness may speak to both but we shall divide his Testimony when we come to observe upon it Mr. Treby My Lords I take leave to acquaint your Lordships that Mr. Dugdale hath but a low voice and your Lordships will not hear him without a Command of Silence which was done by Proclamation and Mr. Dugdale sworn Mr. Treby Mr. Dugdale take notice We call you now only to the general part of the Plot what Discourses you have heard from Priests in general concerning any part of the Plot. And you are not to give your particular Evidence against this Noble Lord my Lord Stafford till we call you thereunto Lord High Stew. What say you Sir Mr. Dugdale About fifteen or sixteen Years I have been acquainted that there was a Design carrying on for the bringing in the Romish Religion I have at several times by the means of my Ghostly Father that was Mr. Evers been acquainted that there were several Lords and several Priests in several places in England that were to carry it on that is they were to have Mony and Arms ready for those that wanted against the death of the King I have seen several Letters which have come from Paris Rome and St. Omers all relating to this to incourage Mr. Evers and that he should go on to incourage the rest that were ingaged For that purpose I read some of them and intercepted them because they were all directed to me Mr. Evers hath sent me upon Messages sometimes by Letters and sometimes by word of mouth and all tended for the introducing of their Religion that all should be ready with Money and Arms against the Kings Death For I did hear nothing till of late about the killing of the King In particular there came one Letter to Evers from my Lord Stafford to shew that things went on well beyond Sea and hoped they did so here I saw another time some Letters which were also transmitted to my hands by a Messenger that came from Boscobel which did come from Paris and so to St. Omers from whence they came to Harcourt and Harcourt had delivered the Letters to have the opinion of some Lords All which contained advice which they had received from Paris which they counted extraordinary good The purport of these Letters were to shew there was no way could be more likely to do their Work than if any sudden death should happen to the King then to throw it upon the Presbyterians who had killed the old King and were likeliest to be thought to have done this and so they might easily get the Protestants those of the Church of England to join with the Papists against the Presbyterians who would by that become odious and so should weaken the party the more easily to accomplish their design I have of late several times been in company with Priests and other Gentlemen in the Country when they have had Consultations both for the introducing their own Religion aud taking away the Kings life which they did always intend to be about November December or January 78. It was late in the Year but all that Year 78. this was their Consultation I have been sent to the Jesuits some of them particularly to Mr. Vavasor and Mr. Gavan for some Moneys for there was a general Collection and there was the sum of five hundred pounds at one time which I received and gave to Mr. Evers and he returned it to London for the carrying on this design and for discharging an account of Arms and things received from beyond Sea And it was agreed that my Lord Aston Sir James Symons and others should go in October 1678. to dispose of the Arms which they had so received some here and some beyond Sea to the value I heard say of 30000. Moreover I did hear that they were to have men raised there as well as here So I have heard from Mr. Evers and Mr. Gavan and others and I have been also by when it hath been discoursed that the King of France was acquainted with all these Designs and that he would furnish us with men and should not be wanting with all other aid and assistance if there should be any alteration if the King should die or be taken away or to that purpose I have been several times put upon to make Foot-Races to draw people together that they might the better have Discourses together without suspicion I was likewise put in trust by the Jesuits all the while the Plot was carrying on and particularly for two years all the Letters relating to the Plot came to my hand some of which I opened and some I kept in my own hands and particularly I had one that came to my hands which was about the Death of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey for when I carried it to Mr. Evers he said There was one of our Enemies taken out of the way and it was contained in the Letter This night Sir Edmondbury Godfrey is dispatched which by the date of it was the 12. of October 1678. I told him that that would prove a discouragement to us and would be the ruine of all the Design he said not so it would rather prove otherwise for he was one that was active in punishing lewd and debauched persons and it would rather be put upon them than us as done out of Revenge Mr. Treby Pray Sir speak the particular time when that Letter came into Staffordshire Mr. Dugdale The 14. of October 1678. which was Monday Mr. Treby The date of it pray tell us Mr. Dugdale The 12. of October 1678. Mr. Treby The very night that it was done Mr. Dugdale Likewise when I did hear there was like to be an alteration in the Government and having such fair promises I was incouraged to it and was very willing to contribute to the Design and I did then make over an Estate which I had of four hundred pound value for that purpose and for the praying for my Soul And when my Lord Aston and I should come to Account as there was money over and above due to me I did likewise promise because I saw money would be wanting I would give them a hundred pound more There were several other Gentlemen as Mr. Heveningham Sir James Symons my Lord Aston Mr. Draycott Mr. Howard and Mr. Gerard who did to my knowledge contribute towards the carrying on of this Charge for defraying of Money and raising Arms and paying for them And I have seen Letters from beyond Sea that have been to Mr. Evers that all things have been ready as to the Arms and there only wanted Orders how they should be disposed of and I have been several times brought to the Oath of Secrecy for fear I
should disclose it and particularly that time that I went away from my Lord Astons which was on a Monday morning Mr. Evers gave it me about the 18. or 19. of November 1678. And I did then promise by all the promises I could make and upon the Sacrament in his Chamber that I would not disclose it but having others to advise me in it such as could better do it that told me such Oaths were better broken than kept and thereupon I came to discover the thing which I have done to the best of my knowledge I am very loath to charge my memory in particular about times or how many were in company but those that I am sure of but there hath been in company at the Consultation several times Mr. Heveningham Sir James Symons Mr. Vavasor Mr. Petre Mr. Howard and my Lord Aston himself when there hath been speech about the Design for the introducing of Religion and for taking order about money to buy Arms and particularly when my Lord Stafford was by about the Death of the King and that was about September 1678. Mr. Treby Mr. Dugdale you speak of leavying Arms and of the Oath of Secrecy that was given you were there not other Spiritual Weapons used Was there not an Indulgence or such a thing Mr. Dugdale There was an Indulgence about 78. or thereabouts which came through Irelands hands transmitted from beyond Sea and so to Mr Evers and Mr. Gavan was put on to publish it which he did one time at Boscobel And it was likewise at all private Chappels that whosoever was active for the introducing the Romish Religion or killing the King should have a free Pardon of all his sins Mr. Foley Pray declare what Arguments have been used by your Priests to induce you to this Design Lord High Steward Raise your voice that we may hear what you ask Mr. Foley We would know what Arguments have been used to perswade to this design Mr. Dugdale They have told me in their Meetings the King was an Excommunicated Heretick and he was out of the Pale of the Church therefore it was lawful to kill him and it was no more than the killing of a dog Sir John Trevor My Lords I desire to ask him one Question further what he hath heard about a Massacre that was intended L. H. Stew. Have you heard of any Massacre that was to be Mr. Dugdale I have heard that about the time the King should be killed several should be provided with Arms and such Instruments and rise all of a sudden at an hours warning and to come in upon the Protestants and cut their Throats that was one proposal and if any did escape there should be an Army to cut them off in their flight Mr. Treby My Lords I desire to ask him one Question further whether he ever knew or heard of Mr. Oates and Bedloe till the Plot was detected Mr. Dugdale I have heard of them from Priests as messengers intrusted by them but no otherwise L. H. Steward When did you hear that Mr. Dugdale I have formerly declared it Mr. Treby Ay when L. H. Steward Before the discovery or after Mr. Dugdale Before the discovery Mr. Treby My Lords the reason of the Question and the use we make of it is this We charge the Papists with the Conspiracy of a Plot and they charge our Witnesses with a Conspiracy to accuse Now it appears that Mr. Dugdale had not any knowledge of the other Witnesses and only had heard of them as persons concern'd so it could not possibly be a joint contrivance amongst them Sir John Trevor My Lords I desire to ask this Question Whether Mr. Dugdale hath seen any Letters from Whitebread to Evers and what instructions were in those Letters to Evers about the persons to be concerned and what kind of Creatures he was to imploy in this great Design of theirs Mr. Dugdale I saw a Letter from Whitebread to give Mr Evers a caution who he did employ or trust in the Design for he told him there had been good care taken therein hitherto and it were no matter whether they were Gentlemen of Quality or not so they were stout and trusty or to that purpose L. H. Steward What should they be trusty for Mr. Dugdale For the killing the King L. H. Steward Was that said plainly in the Letter Mr. Dugdale To the best of my remembrance in those very words L. H. Steward Was there no Cypher or Character Mr. Dugdale There was no Cypher or Character that I know of nothing but two letters for his Name Mr. Treby My Lords I desire Mr. Dugdale may give an account of those Papers he speaks of What became of them and tell us the reason why they were not produced Mr Dugdale My Lords when I was by the instruction of Mr. Evers to take my flight I conveyed all my Papers that either belonged to him or my self for the carrying on of the Plot and carryed them to an House not far remote from my Lord Aston's and by the help of two Maids Mr. Treby Name them Mr. Dugdale Elizabeth Eld and Anne Eld. And they two did prepare a Fire in their Chamber for that purpose and they assisted me to burn them I was in a great consternation and great fear in regard I must fly and abscond my self and indeed I did it with Tears in my Eyes And whilst we were burning of the Papers one of them spy'd a little Paper-book by chance and she asked me whether that should be burnt I told her no burn not that for there is no Treason in it With that one of them ask'd me is there any Treason in the rest and I put them off to the best of my knowledge and would not give them a direct answer Sir John Trevor Why did you consent to burn them Mr. Dugdale Because I knew they would discover me and others that were concerned in the Plot. Sir Fr. Winn. Your Lordships will be pleased to observe the burning of the Letters was before he discovered the Plot or any thing Mr. Sacheverell My Lords We desire he may be asked one Question he told your Lordships of the Letter that came into Staffordshire about the Death of Sir Edmonbury Godfrey but he hath not told you of the reason why he was to be taken away We desire he will let your Lordships know what reasons they gave for it Mr. Dugdale My Lords I was desirous to know how things went being concerned as well as Mr. Evers and I asked what the reason was they took away his life Mr. Evers told me that there was a Message sent to Mr. Coleman to desire him that he would not reveal what he knew concerning the Plot or any thing of that nature Mr. Sacheverell From whom was that Message sent Mr. Dugdale From the Duke of York And Coleman did send word back again What was it the nearer for he had been so foolish as to reveal all to Sir Edmondbury Godfrey who
being asked if he hath any thing or knows what to say for himself why the Court here ought not to proceed to Judgment and Execution of him upon the Verdict aforesaid saith nothing but as before he had said And hereupon instantly the Attorney General of our said Lord the King according to due form of Law demandeth against him the said Edward Judgment and Execution to be had upon the Verdict aforesaid for our Lord the King Whereupon all and singular the Premisses being viewed and by the Court here understood It is considered That the said Edward Coleman be led by the said Keeper of the Gaol of Newgate aforesaid unto Newgate aforesaid from thence directly be drawn to the Gallows of Tyburn and upon those Gallows there be hanged and be cut down alive to the Earth and his Entrals be taken out of hiâ— Belly and be burned he still living and that the Head of him be cut off and that the Body of him be divided into Four parts and that those Head and Quarters be put where our Lord the King will assign them c. L. Staff I do not hear one word he says my Lords L. H. Stew. My Lord this does not concern your Lordship any further than as to the generality of the Plot. Sir Will. Jones My Lords we have now done with our Proofs for the first general head that we opened which was to make it out that there was a Plot in general We now come to give our particular Evidence against this very Lord and before we do begin we think fit to acquaint your Lordships that our Evidence will take up some time if your Lordships will have the patience to hear it now we will give it but if your Lordships will not sit so long till we can finish it it may be some inconvenience to us to break off in the middle And therefore we humbly offer it to your Lordships consideration whether you will hear it now or no. L. H. Stew. If it cannot be all given and heard now it were better all should be given to morrow Sir Will. Jones If your Lordships please then we will reserve it till to morrow L. Staff My Lords I would only have your directions whether I shall answer this General first or stay till all be said against me That which I have to say to this General will be very short L. H. Stew. My Lord you are to make all your Answer entire and that is best for you L. Staff I am very well contented that I may be the better prepared for it L. H. Stew. Is it your Lordships pleasure that we should Adjourn into the Parliament Chamber Lords Ay Ay. L. H. Stew. Then this House is Adjourned into the Parliament Chember And the Lords went away in the same Order they came The Commons returned to their House and Mr. Speaker resumed the Chair and then the House Adjourned to eight of the clock the next morning The Second Day Wednesday December 1. 1680. A Message was sent from the Lords by Sir Timothy Baldwyn and Sir Samuel Clark Mr Speaker The Lords have sent us to acquaint this House That they intend to proceed to the Tryal of William Viscount Stafford at ten of the clock this morning in Westminster-Hall Mr. Speaker left the Chair and the Commons came into Westminster Hall in the new erected Court And the Managers appointed by the Commons went into the Room prepared for them in that Court to proceed to the particular Evidence against William Viscount Stafford About ten of the clock in the morning the Lords came into the said Court in their former Order and Proclamation being made of Silence and for the Lieutenant of the Tower to bring his Prisoner to the Bar they proceeded L. H. Stew. My Lords expect you should go on with your Evidence and proceed in the Tryal of this Noble Lord. L. Stafford My Lords if your Lordships please I humbly desire that my Counsel may be near me for the Arguing of what is fit to them to speak to as to points of Law for points of Fact I do not desire it L. H. Stew. My Lord you have an Order for your Counsel to attend and they must and ought to attend Mr. Serjeant Maynard The Counsel must not suggest any thing to him while the Evidence is giving they are not to be heard as to matter of Fact L. H. Stew. It is not intended to make use of Counsel as to matter of Fact but they may stand by Mr. Serjeant Maynard My Lords they may stand within hearing but not within prompting L. Staff I assure you if I had all the Counsel in the world I would not make use of them for any matter of Fact Mr. Treby My Lords will you please to order them to stand at a convenient distance that they may not prompt the Prisoner Sir Will. Jones My Lords I hope your Lordships will consider that a man in a Capital Cause ought not to have Counsel to matter of Fact 'T is true he may advise with his Counsel I deny it not but for him in the face of the Court to communicate with his Counsel and by them be told what he shall say as to matters of Fact is that which with submission is not to be allowed If your Lordships order they shall be within hearing I do not oppose it but then I desire they may stand at that distance that there may be no means of intercouse unless points in Law do arise L. H. Stew. You were best make that exception when there is Cause for it in the mean time go on with your Evidence Sir Franc. Winn. We did perceive his Counsel came up towards the Bar and very near him and therefore we thought it our duty to speak before any inconvenience happened This Lord being accused of High Treason the allowing of Counsel is not a matter of Discretion If matters of Law arise all our Books say that Counsel ought to be allowed But we pray that there may be no Counsel to advise him in matter of Fact nor till your Lordships find some Question of Law to arise upon the Evidence L. H. Stew. When there is Cause take the Exception but they do not as yet misbehave themselves Mr. Treby My Lords we presume your Lordships did from the strength and clearness of yesterdays Evidence receive full satisfaction concerning the general Plot and Conspiracy of the Popish Party It being an Evidence apparently invincible not out of the mouths of two or three Witnesses only but of twice that number or more credible persons Upon which we doubt not but your Lordships who hear and Strangers and unborn Posterity when they shall hear will justifie this Prosecution of the Commons and will allow that this Impeachment is the proper voice of the Nation crying out as when the knife is at the throat By the Evidence already given I say it is manifeâ—t that there was a general grand Design to destroy our
Religion our King and his Protestant Subjects And 't is even impossible that this Design so big could be conducted without the concurrence of such persons as this Noble Lord at the Bar. It could not be carried on by less and lower men And it were a wonder that a person so servently affected and addicted as this Lord is to that Party should not be in at so general a Design of the Party But this indeed is but presumptive Evidence which will induce a moral persuasion We shall now produce such positive Evidence as will make a judicial certainty and will abundantly suffice to convince your Lordships and convict this Lord. The Particulars you will hear out of the mouths of the Witnesses whom we shall call They will testifie what share this Lord had in almost all the Parts and Articles in our Charge contriving and contracting for the Murder of the King levying Arms c. And first we call Mr. Dugdale L. Stafford My Lords I conceive I have good ground to except against this man for a Witness for my own particular I know myself as clear â—nd free as any one here but I will not except against him now but reserve it against the time when I come to make my Defence and therefore admit him to be sworn provided my Lords that he look me full in the face L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford what is your Exception against this man that he may not be a Witness L. Stafford I do admit him to be sworn I say nothing now against him Mr. Treby He is sworn already L. H. Stew. You swore him to give Evidence as to the general Plot you did not swear him as to the particulars against my Lord Stafford Sir John Trevor We are content he shall be sworn again we pray he may be sworn Sir Will. Jones 'T is true my Lords we did divide the Evidence into two parts but his Oath was not divided if your Lordships please you may swear them all over again if it may be any satisfaction but I think it was never seen before Then Mr. Dugdale was sworn L. H. Stew. There is Mr. Dugdale come Sir what say you L. Staff Really he is so changed I do not know him Mr. Dugd My Lord I have Witnesses to prove that you know me L. Staff I beg your Lordships that he may look me in the face and give his Evidence as the Law is Sir John Trevor My Lords if this Noble Lord the prisoner at the Bar will have this Witness to look him continually in the face the Court will not hear half his Evidence We desire he may address himself as the Law is to your Lordships and the Judges L. Staff I desire the Letter of the Law which says my Accuser shall come face to face Mr. Dugd. My Lords I am willing to do as your Lordships shall order L. H. Steward My Lord you do see the Witness that is enough for face to face and you make no legal exception against him why he should not be heard L. Staff Very well my Lord I submit Mr. Dugd. My Lords I have for some years past whilst I was a Servant with my Lord Aston been acquainted and frequently had Discourses with my Lord Stafford before we came to discourse any thing concerning the Plot on foot Lately in 78. my Lord coming down into the Countrey it was either in August or September the latter end of August or the beginning of September L. Staff I beseech your Lordships he may name the times L. H. Stew. My Lord if your Lordship please do not interrupt the Witnesses but wherein he is short do you ask him the Question when it comes to your turn I will bring it to as much certainty as I can Mr. Dugd. There was a meeting at Tixal where there were several present L. H. Steward When Mr. Dugdale It was in September or the latter end of August L. H. Stew. What year Mr. Dugdale 78. My Lords I had then by Mr. Evers means admittance to hear because of my incouragement what the Discourse was at that time It was to debate and determine upon the former Resolutions both beyond Sea and at London before both to take away the life of the King and to introduce their Religion of which I was then one My Lord Stafford was there present and did with the rest consent to it Afterwards my Lord Stafford being at one Mr. Abnets of Stafford one Sunday morning in September came to my Lord Aston's House to Mass I met with my Lord Stafford at some distance from the Gate and my Lord speaking to me when he alighted off from his Horse told me it was a very sad thing they could not say their Prayers but in an hidden manner but e're long we should have our Religion established which was much to my joy at that time After that time my Lord Stafford was sometimes at Stafford and sometimes at Tixal I will not bâ— positive as to a day but I think it was about the middle of September My Lord Stafford sent for me to his lodging Chamber as he had several times before sent for me and said he had had great Commendations of me from Mr. Evers that I was Faithful and Trusty Lord Stafford My Lords I desire I may have Pen Ink and Paper allowed me L. H. Stew. Ay God forbid you should be denied that Give my Lord Pen Ink and Paper I hope your Lordship hath one to assist you that takes Notes for you if you have not you have lost a great deal of time already L. Staff There was one all day yesterday my Lords I desire he may speak his Evidence over again L. H. Stew. Let him begin his Evidence again for my Lord had not Pen Ink nor Paper which he ought to have to help his memory Mr. Dugdale I may miss as to the words but the matter of Fact I shall repeat my Lords I have been frequently acquainted whilst I was a Servant at my Lord Aston's with my Lord Stafford coming to my Lords House in the Counâ—rey and my Lord being several times there I came to that Intimacy by Mr. Evers means that my Lord would frequently discourse with me About the latter end of August or some day in September my Lord Stafford my Lord Aston and several other Gentlemen were in a Room in my Lord Aston's House and by the means of Mr. Evers I was admitted to hear for my incouragement and there I heard them in that Debate at that time fully determine a Resolution upon all the Debates that had been beyond Sea and at London before That it was the best way they could resolve on to take away the life of the King as the speediest means to introduce their own Religion After sometime my Lord being at Stafford at Mr. Abnets L. H. Steward Was my Lord Stafford at that meeting where they debated to kill the King Mr. Dugdale My Lord was there L. H. Steward Was he consenting to
the business was reconciled by one Seignior Con who came over into England in the year 76. to reconcile the great Difference that was betwixt the Jesuits and the secular Clergy and between the Benedictine Monks and the Jesuits My Lords my Lord Stafford upon the perswasion of this Seignior Con as he does intimate in his letter does assure the Jesuits of his fidelity and his zeal My Lords in the year 78. I found letters from my Lord Stafford wherein he does blame Mr. Coleman's openness and his being too publick in the great Affair and that Mr. Coleman was pleased to communicate several great secrets to men of whose Fidelity his Lordship was not secure My Lords in the year 78. in the month of June my Lord Stafford the Prisoner at the Bar came to Mr. Fenwick and there received a Commission from him to pay an Army that was to be raised for the promoting of the Catholick Interest and he did assure Mr. Fenwick that he was going down into Staffordshire and there he did not question but he should have a good account how the Catholicks stood affected and he did not question but to give a good account how Affairs stood in Staffordshire Shropshire and Lancashire and this Commission to my Lord Stafford was as neer as I can remember to be Pay-Master-General of the Army My Lords among other Discourses with my Lord at the Bar he was discoursing about my Lord Duke of Norfolk and my Lord Arundel his Son and after several other passages he Fenwick was asking of him how my Lord Arundel came to have a Jesuit in his House My Lord Stafford did say that my Lord of Peterborough his Father in Law was instrumental in it on purpose to oblige the Duke of York for my Lord Arundel as I have been told kept Father Symonds in his House who to my knowledge was a Jesuit But my Lords he came to Mr. Fenwicks my Lord Stafford did by the name of Mr. Howard of Effingham L. H. Steward Were you at Fenwicks when my Lord Stafford came to his Chamber Dr. Oats Yes my Lords L. H. Steward Look upon my Lord Stafford is that the same Person Dr. Oats It is the same Gentleman that came there by the name of Howard of Effingham L. H. Steward And he took the Commission Dr. Oats Yes he did so L. H. Steward And he promised to effect it Dr. Oats Yes And he said that he was then going down into the Countrey and he did not doubt but at his return Grove should do the business L. H. Steward Who said so Fenwick Dr. Oats No my Lord Stafford And says Fenwick to my Lord Stafford again Sir â—tis fit that some should be here present least you fail of your Expectation or to that purpose 'T is two years since and I cannot remember the words but my Lord Stafford did say he was of necessity to go into the Country at that time And there he did write a letter to St. Omers in which he did excuse himself about a young man that was to be sent to the Jesuits Colledge whom he had taken care of another way And he desired their excuse but he would be as faithful to them as any body for all that And the same hand that wrote that letter by all the comparing I could make in my thoughts wrote all the other Letters that I saw at St. Omers and in Spain My Lords I saw my Lord Stafford at Dr. Perrotts I think verily it was in June or July 78. it was before the rising of the Parliament that sat that Summer and my Lord Stafford was discoursing of a Son he was to send over to Lisbon and he went over by the name of Sir John Stafford And after this Discourse was over they fell into a Discourse of the Affairs in hand and my Lord was mighty glad there was so good a Correspondence and Concord though my Lords it was not very great for the Jesuits have an irreconcileable Quarrel with the rest of the Clergy But my Lord did hope that their fair Correspondence might tend highly to the advancing the Catholick Cause But my Lords I have one thing more to speak as to the Discourse at Fenwicks Chamber speaking of the King he said He hath deceived us a great while and we can bear no longer Lord High Stew. Who said so Dr. Oats My Lord Stafford the Gentleman at the Bar. Lord High Stew. When was that At Dr. Perrotts Dr. Oats No I speak of a passage at Fenwick's which I had forgot My Lords this is all I can remember at present M. Foley My Lords I desire he may give an Account what letters my Lord Stafford sent to Fenwick and Ireland to pay money Dr. Oats There was some money returned but it was no great Sum and it was about private business Mr. Morgan was to receive it I chanced to have the money in my own keeping Mr. Fenwick gave it me to pay to Mr. Morgan and the letter in which the Sum was mentioned did give them an Account for it was out of Staffordshire that he found things stand in a very good state there but I being not within Mr. Morgan called on Mr. Fenwick for the money which I returned to him when he had paid it Lord Stafford My Lords I do in the first place desire to know where Mr. Fenwick lived Lord High Stew. Where did Mr. Fenwick live when you saw my Lord at his Chamber and the Commission delivered Dr. Oats His Lordship I suppose knows very well where he lived he lived in Drury-lane Lord Stafford I will submit to any thing if I ever saw the man or heard of him till the Discovery of the Plot. Dr. Oats He came to him by the name of Thompson Lord High Stew. Your Lordship does not observe your Lordship says that you never knew any Fenwick but your Lordship knew one Thompson and that Thompson was Fenwick Lord Stafford I did know one Thompson but that Thompson I knew was an â—nglish Merchant in Brussels and not a Jesuit Dr. Oats I can't say what my Lord knows that he knew Fenwick to be a Jesuit but he knew one Thompson that was Fenwick the Jesuit Lord Stafford I never heard of the Name till this Plot. Dr. Oats But if your Lordships please I will give you a reason why I believe he knew him to be a Jesuit because the Society was very often in their mouths in their Discourses which gives me a ground to believe he knew him to be what he was but my Lord he took his Commission from him Lord Stafford I desire he may be asked L. H. Steward Good my Lord raise your voice for I am come half way to hear you Lord Stafford Pray my Lords give me leave to ask him whether Dr. Oats hath not said several times since I was first imprisoned that he never saw me in his life I think I was imprisoned the 21. of October 78. Dr. Oats I never said any such thing
Lord Stafford I will willingly dye if ever I saw this Doctor in my life Dr. Oats I excuse my Lord for that for I was in another habit and I went by another Name and your Lordships do remember I came in another habit to make the first Discovery Lord Stafford My Lord I never saw his face nor know him nor Fenwick or Thompson otherwise than one Thompson a Merchant at Brussels Dr. Oats But my Lords I have one thing more to say of my Lord Stafford my Lord Stafford went into France I can't say the year but I believe it is within the term of 6 or 7. but he went over to France and it did appear by letters from him that Seignior Con was made choice of to heal the Difference between the Regulars and the Seculars and Seignior Con did come over in the year 76. and there did make a kind of a peace among them which lasted whilst Con stayed here and Con did bring over Messages to which my Lord Stafford if he tells any truth in his own letter did return answers Lord Stafford For the present all I say to it is this I never writ any one letter this 25 years nor had any correspondence with any Jesuit Lord High Steward I beseech your Lordship make me capable of serving your Lordship by letting me hear what you say Lord Stafford My Lord I have a great Cold and can speak no louder I desire to ask this Witness no more Questions at present but I say I never writ any letters to any Priest this 25 years Mr Foley Then my Lords if my Lord hath done we will call another Witness and that is Mr. Edward Turbervile Who was sworn L. H. Steward Look upon the Prisoner Do you know my Lord Stafford Mr. Turbervile Yes my Lord. L. H. Steward Raise your voice and speak deliberately Mr. Treby Give an account of your knowledge and use your own method Mr. Turbervile My Lords in the year 1675. I was perswaded by my Lady Powis and one Morgan that was Confessor to the Family to go to Doway in order to take upon me the Fryars Habit. When I came there instead of Religion I found nothing but Hypocrisie and Villainy among them and quickly grew weary of staying there and with much difficulty I escaped thence to go for England when I came into England I did not think that my Friends would look unkindly upon me because I refused to live in that way that they proposed to me to live in I used all the means I could to have them reconciled and made applications to them that since I could not bear with the life they would have had me lived in they would contrive some way for me being a younger Brother that I might live in the world but they were so averse and inveterate against me that they told me instead of doing any thing for me they would do me all the mischief and prejudice they could and having lived all my time among them I thought the World would receive a Character of me from them who were my Relations as they would please to represent it so having no hopes in England I took a resolution to go into France where I had a Brother that was a Benedictine Monk and I hoped that he being in good repute amongst them might be able to do me some service there When I came to Paris my Brother used all the endeavours imaginable to get me to be of that Order but I having so ill a conceit and opinion of the Order that I was in before and thinking all the rest were the same I was unwilling at all to enter into it And after I had staid there a while I resolved to come over into England My Brother used all the means he could for my accommodation and recommended me to this Noble Lord the Prisoner at the Bar who lodged then at a corner house in a Street which as I remember bears the name of La Rue de Beaufort where I was several times with him in order to come over with him in the Yaught for England After I had been there for a fortnight with this Lord he understanding my condition by my Brother and by the other Fathers of that Convent and imagining I was a fit instrument to be employed on such an occasion propos'd to me a way whereby as he said I might not only retrieve my Reputation with my Relations but also make my self a very happy man and after having exacted from me all the obligations of secresie which I could give him he at length told me in direct terms it was to take away the life of the King of England who was an Heretick and consequently a Rebel against God Almighty I looked upon it as an extraordinary attempt and desired time to consider of it before I would undertake it And I gave him this answer I would give him my resolution at Diep where we were to go on board for England And when I came to take my leave of this Noble Lord at the Bar he was sitting upon a bench and he was troubled with the Gout in his foot at that time And he told me he had some business to go to Versailles and that he should not be in six or seven days at Diep where I was to wait for him After a while I received a letter at Diep from his Lordship wherein he writ word That he had altered his resolution and would go by the way of Calice and that I should hasten to wait on his Lordship at London I have one thing more to observe to your Lordships when I got passage from Diep in a Fisher-boat for England I never came neer my Lord Stafford because being not willing to undertake his proposal I thought my self not safe even from my own Relations and therefore I made my applications to the Duke of Monmouth and his Grace was pleased by letter to recommend me into the French service and by that means I avoided his Lordships further importunity Lord High Steward You say my Lord did propose to you the Killing of the King did he plainly make the proposal in direct terms to kill the King Mr. Turbervile Yes he did my Lord. Lord High Steward What did he offer you to do it Mr. Turbervile Nothing for I would not accept of it I told him it was a matter of great concernment and I ought to consider of it and I took time to think of it and would give him my answer at Diep which he came not to and so there was an end of it Lord High Steward What ingagements of secresie had you given my Lord before he opened himself so plainly to you Mr. Turbervile I gave my Lord my word and my promise that I would not discover it to any person directly nor indirectly my Lord had nothing of an Oath from me L. H. Steward Will you ask him any more Questions Gentlemen Sir Will. Jones No my Lords L. H. Steward Will your
Representative Body of the Commons of England and I confess my Lords to be accused by them was a load especially being added to what lay before upon me more especially to my â—eak Body and weaker mind that I was so afflicted with it and have so continued that I am scarce able to bear up under it For I look upon the House of Commons as the great and worthy Patriots of this Kingdom I ever held them so and I hold them so still My Lords These things being such great afflictions to me and some other accidents which I shall not trouble your Lordships with the telling you of have so much disordered my sense and reason which before was little that I scarce know how to clear my self to your â—ordships as I ought to do or which way to go about the doing of it therefore I do with all humility beg your Lordships pardon if I say any thing that may give an offence or urge that which may not be to the purpose All which I desire you would be pleased to attribute to the true Cause my want of understanding not of innocency or a desire to make it appear My Lords These Gentlemen the Managers of the House of Commons who are great and able men some I am sure if not all of them very well read and have understanding in the Law have set forth to your Lordships Treason in an horrid shape but I confeâ—s my Lords if they had made it never so much worse it cannot be so horrid as I have often fancied it my self for my Lords I do and did ever hold Treason to be the greatest sin in the World and I cannot use words enough to express it and therefore I hope you will give me leave to clear my self of it and I shall give you one Notion of it which I heard at your Lordships Bar some years ago where you were pleased to here several people of several perswasions give you some reason why Liberty of Conscience should be allowed them And I remember one of them an Anabaptiâ—t I think did tell you that they held Treason to be the sin of Witchcraft and so do â— And next to Treason I hold Murder to be the worst sin But the Murder of the King I looked upon to be so above all others that it is not to be expressed by words My Lords I have heard very much of a thing that was named by these Gentlemen of the House of Commons and that very properly too to wit of the Gun-powder Treason My Lords I was not born then but some years after I heard very much Discourse of it and very various Reports and I made a particular inquiry perhaps more than any one person did else both of my Father who was aâ—ive then and my Uncle and others and I am satisfied and do clearly believe by the Evidence I have received That that thing called the Gun-powder Treason was a wicked and horrid Design among the rest of some of the Jesuits and I think the malice of the Jesuits or the Wit of man cannot offer an excuse for it it was so execrable a thing Besides my Lords I was acquainted with one of them that was concerned in it who had his pardon and lived many years after I discoursed with him about it and he confessed it and said he was sorry for it then and I here declare to your Lordships that I never heard any one of the Churâ—h of Rome speak a good word of it it was so horrid a thing that it cannot be expressed nor excused And God Almighty shewed his Judgments upon them for their wickedness for hardly any of the Persons or their Posterity are left that were concâ—rned in it and even a very great Family too that had collaterally something to do in it is in the Male line extinct totally and I do think God Almighty always shews his Judgments upon such vile Actions And I have been told all those persons that were engaged in this wicked Act were all heartily sorry for it and repented of it before they died without which I am sure there is no Salvation And therefore I think it was not the Interest of Religion but a private Interest put them upon it My Lords As to the Doctrine of King-killing and Absolving persons from their Allegiance I cannot say the Church of Rome does not hold it I never heard it did hold it it may be it does it may be not I say not one thing or other but my Lords there was an English Colledge of Priests at Rhemes that translated the Bible and printed it with Authority according to their Translation and in their Annotations upon the fourteenth Chapter of the Epistle to the Romans they do declare their dislike and detestation of that Opinion They say all Subjects ought to obey their Kings as the 〈◊〉 mitive Christians did the Heathen Princes of the Empire and the learned Doctors of the Colledge of Sorbonne did upon an occasion administred to them about that Opinion declare the mistakes that were in it and owned it to be a damnable Principle My Lords I have an Authentical Copy of that Decree of the Sorbonists whether it be here or no I can't tell Yes here it is which does declare that a damnable Position and there is lately come out a Book written by a Priest of the Church of Rome tryed for his life for being in the Plot but acquitted of that in which he says that that Opinion of killing Kings is damnable and herettical and declared so by the Council of Trent My Lords This gives me occasion to believe that the Church of Rome holds it not I do not say that it does not but some particular persons do abhor it which are great in that Church and which weighs far with me but that which further most of all confirms me in my ill Opinion of it is the words of our Saviour when not only he commands us to give unto Caesar the things that are Caesars but asserts our Obedience to our Governours in many other passages of the Holy Scripture and what I find there the whole World is not able to alter my Opinion of I do assure your Lordships in the presence of Almighty God That I do extreamly admire when I hear of any thing like it and I did read with great horror what I found the other day in the Gazette of some imprudent people in Scotland and of their wicked Principles and Practices My Lords I do in the presence of Almighty God who knows and sees all things and of his Angels which are continually about us and of your Lordships who are my Peers and Judges solemnly profess and declare that I hate and detest any such Opinion as I do damnation to my self And I cannot be more desirous of Salvation to my self than I am cordial in hating this Opinion My Lords I know no person upon Earth nor all the persons in the world put together nor all the Power
Blood is so great a Crime and I know every man is careful of giving his Voice in the Case of Blood I should be very cautious my self and if I were a Judge I would rather save twenty Guilty than condemn one Innocent I bless God I have not the least desire of the Death of any man and would not for all the world have the innocent Blood of all the word lye upon me I beg your Lordships pardon that I have troubled you thus long I shall now as well as I can apply my self to my particular Defence I do my Lords before I can go on to it desire I may have such Depositions as have been taken against me and the liberty to look on your Journal Book when I have occasion I do particularly desire the Depositions of Oats upon which I was committed by my Lord Chief Justice the two Depositions of Stephen Dugdale taken at Stafford before two Justices of the Peace Mr. Lane and Mr. Vernon I desire the Depositions taken before I think it was Mr. Warcup and Sir William Poultney or some other two Justices which was made by Turbervile and then I shall compare their Testimonies together And I hope shall give you a clear account that they are perjured persons How without these to go on to my just Defence I cannot well tell Lord High Steward What do you say to it Gentlemen you hear what my Lord prays Sir Franc. Winnington The Witnesse are here and have been heard viva voce As we cannot use any of the Depositions of which he speaks so no more can they be used by him Lord High Steward If I understand my Lord aright this is the thing he desires says he You have brought Witnesses against me viva voce they have been examined here and they have been examined elsewhere and their Depositions are upon Record I desire to confront what they have said here with what they have said contrary in other places Mr. Serj. Maynard If there be any thing expressed by my Lord wherein they have contradicted themselves and produce that Deposition he may do that but to desire to have all the Depositions that have been made by our Witnesses is a strange request When there is occasion to use them upon any particular point he may produce them if he can Lord High Steward Can you object why my Lord should not have Copies of any thing that is upon the Journal and Depositions that are sworn before a Magistrate which may be of use to him Sir William Jones My Lords We do not object against it but my Lords I think it is out of time of to desire it What was sworn and is entred in your Lordships Journal was sworn above two years since My Lord or any man else might repair to them they are matters of Record and for ought we know were never denyed to any especially if they desired it in the House but after two years time and after three weeks time given to prepare for this Tryal when my Lord could not but know what Witnesses would be examined before your Lordships for him to come now and desire such and such Depositions may be produced which if by Law he might be allowed to do he might have done before is to no other purpose under favour but to gain time and to cause our Evidence to be forgotten And therefore we must humbly pray it may not be admitted My Lords I think it is an unusual thing My Lords the Judges are neer your Lordships I suppose they will inform your Lordships If a man be tryed at the Assizes for him to desire a Coppy of the Informations remaining in Court by which he may except against the Witnesses is what the Court does not use to grant But if your Lordships proceedings vary from the common proceedings of other Courts then I resort to what I said before Whether your Lordships will think this a proper time when he might have had it in the Parliament that was first Dissolved and then in the Parliament that was last Dissolved Now to desire those Copies at this time is to put off the Cause for that which perhaps he cannot be furnished with in a day or two Sir Fr. VVin. I would add but one word if your Lordships please to give me leave My Lords you have the Learned Judges near you who will inform you Whether ever when a man was accused of a Capital Offence and the Evidence against him had been fully heard by the Court and by himself he was admitted to require from the Prosecutors the Copies of Examinations formerly taken before other Persons Does my Lord intend to have time to peruse those Examinations and to have the Copies of them that he may consult in private with his Counsel to find out Exceptions and with his Witnesses to make them good My Lords I must say that in my short Experience and I have attended a considerable time upon the greatest Court for Trial of Offenders I never heard such a thing asked by a Prisoner either at the Bar of the Kings Bench or at the Assizes I speak with all the tenderness imaginable because we are in a matter of Blood and God-forbid but the Lord at the Bar should have true and equal Justice done him But if I take my Lord right this seems but an Artifice to delay the Trial of which it is our duty to be very cautious Indeed I have seen the Judges upon trial of a Criminal call for the Depositions or Informations from the Clerk or the Justice of the Peace who took them and caused them to be read but for a Prisoner to call for Examinations at the Bar from the Prosecutors Et ex Debita Justitia to demand them is a thing which as it never has been so I think will not be admitted at this time especially when we are now almost at the end of the Cause and with all Modesty and Submission to your Lordships I look upon it as a very strange and unreasonable Demand L. H. Steward My Lord Stafford What is the reason your Lordship had not all this while Copies of the Journal which is that you now ask L. Stafford I shall not undertake that I am able to give your Lordships a reason for it because I think wherein I have been mistaken as to point of Time your Lordships will not tie me up to that But this Gentleman that spoke last is not acquainted with me and does not know me for I have no desire to go back or to put off this Trial But if it cannot be done to Day I am as guilty to Morrow as I am to Day and I desire no more than what he says hath been done in the like Cases I do desire my Lord the Informations and Depositions of Dugdale Oates and Turbervile may be produced and read and I will make Observations upon them in my Defence I desire those Affidavits may be brought L. H. Stew. Affidavits taken When and where
redily produce them but for my self I must answer and I think my Companions will say so too that we do not know where these Affidavits are nor of any Variation in those Affidavits from what is now sworn but whatever they were they were taken for the Information of the House of Commons who are the Prosecutors in this Cause and who are no Judges Now if my Lord will bring any Witness that will say this Witness of ours did before a Justice of Peaee depose so and so and says the contrary now there might be then just reasons to look after these Affidavits and to have them produced but upon a bare imagination that there is a Variance where in truth there is none and the Truth may otherwise be known to desire that these Affidavits that never were before you should be produced whether such a Suggestion is to be admitted I humbly submit it to your Lordships Consideration L. Stafford My Lords if these Gentlemen that are the Managers for the House of Commons will aver to your Lordships that there is no Variation in them I will submit to them and be quiet if they will say it was not debated in the House whether he should amend or no. L. H. Stew. Look you he puts it upon you so far Gentlemen that if you will take it upon you to aver that there is no Variation between those Affidavits upon which you grounded your Impeachment and the Evidence you have given upon the Trial of your Impeachment he will not give you the trouble L. Stafford I beseech you let me say one word my Lords I have been thus long a Prisoner I was as far from being proceeded against now as any of the rest of the Lords in the Tower till Turbervile came in with his Discovery and I believe I am now called the sooner which I am glad of and I give the Gentlemen thanks for it upon the Affidavit of Turbervile I desire that Affidavit and though it be true the House of Commons give no Oath yet they appointed two Members of the House that were Justices of the Peace of Middlesex to take it upon Oath and he desired the next day to amend it and I put my self upon them whether this be not true L. H. Stew. What say you Sir to it Sir W. Jones My Lord I cannot answer because I don't hear L. Stafford My Lord I say this I do observe that Mr. Turbervile whose face I never saw in my life that I know of till to day nor never spoke a word to him and I shall prove that no Servant that ever I had see him did depose for the purpose to day that he was in the Years 73. and 76. in such and such places and that he did speak with me at Doway and Paris and to Morrow recollecting his Notes he found he was mistaken in his Affidavit that he had made before and desired to mend it and brought it to the Years 72. and 75. there was some Debate in the House about it whether they should permit him to mend it I appeal to all the Gentlemen whether it were not so L. H. Stew. Your labour is to have two Affidavits that you do presume will do your business in order to the finding out a variety of time of his being at Doway or at Paris That which does press your Lordship we know in Turbervile's Evidence is That at Paris in the Room below of your Lodging you encouraged him to kill the King and you were to have met him at Diep to know his mind but you came not and he went away if you have it in the Affidavit quite contrary to this you say somewhat L. Staff My Lords I beseech you it presses me and every man in England not to be run down by a Fellow that forswears himself for him to swear one thing to day and another thing to morrow is Perjury L. H. Stew. What say you to it Gentlemen Sir W. Jones What was done in the House of Commons it does not become any of us that are Members to disclose But I have heard and will admit it that in the Depositions the Witness made before a Justice of Peace there was a year put down which he going home and upon sight of Letters and Papers found it to be mistaken he comes the next day and desires to alter it if this be for my Lords Service we shall grant it Mr. Serj. Maynard 'T is on or about too L. H. Stew. What say you my Lord now L. Staff I do say my Lord I am informed by what I have heard cursorily for I have not seen one of the House of Commons before the day of my Tryal that though in his second Deposition he named the years 72. and 75. yet I can prove him perjured as to what he hath sworn here to day L. H. Stew. Since 't is insisted upon Gentlemen that there is a Variety in the last Deposition from what he swore at first what can you say why he should not have the avail of his Exception Sir Will. Jones My Lords whether your Lordships will think fit to consider by what ways and means the House of Commons informed themselves in order to Impeachments I submit to you and for those things that still remain in the hands of the Commons I suppose you will be pleased to consider how you can send for them to inform you We would not be mistaken in the matter let not any one that hears us think that we are conscious there is the least Variation nay we are confident if the thing were produced it would turn to my Lords prejudice but what is done in this Case may be a President for the future and therefore we cannot without resorting to the House consent to deliver any thing the House took for their Information Therefore if your Lordships stand upon it and incline to have it done we must resort to the House to ask their leave whether we shall do it or no. L. H. Stew. I cannot tell what my Lords will incline to do but I desire when you are gone back you will consider how far it will make the matter easie to my Lord. Sir Will. Jones My Lords we can give no Answer to that till we have attended our House Mr. Serj. Maynard I desire your Lordships to consider what a piece of cunning he hath put upon both Houses to pass by his villifying our Witnesses which I may say was not comely But if he makes any Question it must be put to the Houses upon supposition to be a Question and so he would bring things only to this issue to put off the Cause for to day He ought to put that which might probably be something of a Question Let him instance in particulars and make out his Evidence not seign things to put off the Cause for ought I see 't is to no other end and 't is a Jesuitical trick I think L. Stafford I feign nothing I have
that you were much spent in Discourse and Tired with what already you have done My Lords are extreamly willing to give your Lordship all the Favour and Accommodation possible for the Recollecting your self therefore my Lords will not now put you upon it to go on to make your Defence but will give you time till to Morrow L. Stafford I humbly give your Lordships thanks for your kindness and Favour to me but here I profess and call Almighty God to witness rather than I would have it thought I am willing to put it off I would have sunk down Dead at the Bar. But my Lords there was another Demand that I made Your Lordships say I shall have Copies of all the Journals and that you cannot help me to the Affidavit of Turbervile I submit to it without saying one word more but I desire that I may have brought hither to Morrow the Journals and other Papers in the Lords House but I desire also the two Affidavits of Dugdale taken the one the 24. the other the 29. of December following which Depositions were taken before Mr. Lane and Mr. Vernon in Stafford Town when Dugdale was in Prison L. H. Stew. Look you my Lord This is all under the same Rule What Evidence soever there is before the Court of Peers that you shall have whatsoever Evidence is not in that Court you ought to come provided of the Court is not to stay nor to help you to Evidence L. Staff My Lord I beg your pardon Dugdale made an Affidavit then and says the clean contrary now I desire nothing but Justice and I am sure I shall have all Justice from your Lordships L. H. Stew. Produce it and alledge what you will for your self it shall be heard L. Staff How then shall I be able to make my Defence if I have not those Papers which I humbly concieve by the Law ought to be brought These Gentlemen of the House of Commons say That I could not have Turbervile's Affidavit because it was in the House and they could not give it without consent of the House but this was examined before a Justice of Peace and returned to the Council Sure I shall have that I was examined by my Lord of Essex and my Lord of Bridgewater upon that Affidavit twice I think therefore that is material and necessary and I know your Lordships would not have me come to defend my self without Weapons L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford I do beseech your Lordship to be a little better informed in your own Business You have leave to make use of the Journal and all Papers that are entred there the Clerks say Dugdale's Oath is entred there L. Stafford Is the 24. of December there Clerk It is there L. H. Stew. Pray my Lord do not put the Court upon Interrogatories but come provided as well as you can L. Stafford If it be entred on the Journal Book I desire not the Original I am very well satisfied L. H. Stew. Will you be ready to go on to morrow my Lord L. Stafford I will withall my heart L. H. Stew. 'T is too late Gentlemen to go on to Night we must Adjourn till to Morrow Lord Stafford My Lords I had so much to write last Night that I had very little sleep I desire I may not come till Ten. L. H. Stew. My Lord I am not able to hear you I take as much pains to come near you as I can L. Stafford I had a great deal to write last Night I say and I want some sleep I desire I may not come till Ten. L. H. Stew. Will you be ready by Ten a Clock to Morrow L. Stafford I will be ready by Ten. L. H. Stew. I will move my Lords when they are withdrawn to Adjourn till Ten to Morrow But my Lord Stafford I do not know how your Lordship is provided or how you look after your own Business If you have not had Copies of the Journal all this while 't is you are in the fault A great deal of it is in Print you may send your Solicitor to the Clerk of the Parliament and take Copies of what you have need of I give you notice of it that if you come unprovided you may know it is your own fault L. Stafford I do acknowledge I have Copies of the Journal Book I think of all but I do not find any thing of Dugdale's second Deposition there L. H. Stew. Here is that of the 24. of December that you ask after send your Solicitor and then you shall have a Copy out of the Journal of it L. Stafford I assure your Lordship I will be ready to morrow if I can get those Copies Lord High Steward My Lords will give you as much Ease and all the Accommodations that are fit L. Stafford Then to morrow I will be ready by Ten a Clock if your Lordships please only I would desire your Lordships to take notice that these Gentlemen of the House of Commons do acknowledge that Turbervile swore one day to one year and the next day to another L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford you say you can be ready to morâ—ow at Ten a Clock Are you sure you can be ready then L. Stafford I say my Lords this I shall not be so ready as I shall be next day but I assure your Lordships I will rather sink down in the place where I am if you think fit than put off the Tryal L. H. Stew. Look you Gentlemen of the House of Commons in a Case of this consequence and of this Vital Importance to a Man as this is where is the inconvenience if there should be a days respite and the Court should Adjourn till Friday if my Lords be moved in it I make no direction but what inconvenience will be in it Will it not be every way as well Sir Will. Jones My Lords your Lordships does not expect from us to give our consent to put off the Tryal L. H. Stew. I ask only what inconvenience it is Sir Will. Jones Your Lordships are the Judges and will do as you find it reasonable but this I say it is very unusual and scarce to be Presidented that when the Prosecutors have given an Evidence the Prisoner should have time a further considerable time to give his Answer to it the Prisoner knows before hand the general Scope and Drift of the Evidence therefore for him to have time till to morrow is a favour but to have more than that even a whole day to intervene is very unusual L. H. Stew. If that be all and the matter depend upon what is usual I do venture with my Lords leave to inform you that my Lord of Strafford had two days time after the Prosecution to give his Answer to what was said against him Sir William Jones That was an Evidence upon Twenty Eight Articles this but upon Two Heads and that was after a long Examination of many days L. Stafford My Lords
by the Statute Mr. Serjeant Maynard Express your self my Lord for we do not understand you L. Stafford I cannot say more than I do the time which the Statute limits is six months but this is five years I desire the Statute may be read L. H. Stew. What Statute my Lord L. Stafford The Statute of the 13 th of this King L. H. Stew. If your Lordship pleases you shall have it read But your Lordship does not observe you are prosecuted and impeached of High Treason upon the Statute of the 25 th of Edward the 3 d. not upon the Statute of the 13 th of this King made for the Safety of the Kings Person which limits the Prosecution of some Offences to be within six months but the Prosecution for Treason may be at any time L. Staff Does your Lordship say it may be at any time Lord High Steward Yes my Lord. L. Stafford This truly does very much surprise me though I am wholly ignorant in matters of Law My Lords I have ever heard that no man can be prosecuted by that Statute but within so many days in one part of it Thirty Days in another six months and I desire your Lordships that the Statute may be read L. H. Stew. If your Lordship please the Statute shall be read if your Lordship desires the Clause of the Statute of the 13 th of this King which limits the Prosecution to be within six months that shall be read But I conceive your Lordship is not accused upon that Statute Lord Stafford I beseech your Lordships I may know whether I am prosecuted upon the Statute of the 13 th of this King or upon what other Statute L. H. Steward What say the worthy Gentlemen of the House of Commons Is my Lord prosecuted upon the Statute of the 13 th of this King M. Serj. Maynard Not at all my Lord he is not prosecuted upon that Statute but upon the Common Law and the 25 th of Edward the 3 d. which was only Declarative of the Common Law L. Staff This is a point of Law Sir Will. Jones What is the point of Law L. Staff Whether I can be prosecuted after so many days L. H. Steward The Law is very clear If you were prosecuted upon the 13 th of this King for any less Offence than Treason you could not be prosesecuted after six months but if you be prosecuted for Treason either upon the 25 th of Edward the 3 d. or 13. Car. 2 d. there is no time limited and God forbid there should L. Stafford I beseech your Lordships Judgment whether there be not a Statute I think 't is in the Reign of Edward the 6 th that sets the time after which no man shall be prosecuted for any thing of Treason I desire a quarter of an hours time to look into the Statute L. H. Stew. What say you Gentlemen L. Stafford Pray my Lord let me read the Statute of Edward the 6 th Mr. Serj. Maynard We know not of any such Statute L. Stafford I will not say there is but I will say I cannot read if there be not L. H. Stew. Pray Gentlemen of the House of Commons my Lord does suppose he hath some kind of Objection in Law to make which he cannot make out of himself will it be amiss to let his Counsel make and propose the Question for him Sir Will. Jones My Lords we rather would have my Lord propose the Objection for your Lordships know till a matter of Law is proposed he cannot be admitted to have Counsel If he desires time to recollect himself about the Objection we can't oppose it But we desire that he may propose the Objection and after if it be any doubt in matter of Law your Lordships will assign him Counsel to be heard to speak to it Sir Franc. Winn. This would be a way for a Prisoner to have the Advantage of Counsel when they ought not to be allowed for 't is but to say he hath some doubt which he cannot propose himself and so let in his Counsel to make Objections for him If any Question of Law do arise and that Question is stated you will allow the Prisoner Counsel to argue it but at this rate he may make the like pretences in every part of his Defence and so obtain that Counsel shall manage his whole Defence for him L. H. Stew. I suppose my Lord does intend an Objection as to the time of the Prosecution but he does not know how to make it He supposes he is prosecuted after the six months which he thinks is the time limited for the Prosecution But I pray my Lord Stafford will your Lordship take time to recollect your self and make an Objection fit for Counsel to be heard upon and you shall have it L. Staff I beseech you I may have the Statute-Book with me for I have none my self my Lord. Sir Will. Jones With all our hearts we do not oppose it Then my Lord withdrew into the Room provided for him and within a quarter of an hour returned L. H. Stew. Say my Lord. L. Stafford My Lords I do confess I have been very much mistaken ever since I was first committed to the Tower For I did conceive that they would have proceeded as I thought I was impeached upon the Statute of the 13 th of this King I humbly desire your Lordships Judgment whether I ought or no to be prosecuted upon that Statute L. H. Stew. The Gentlemen have told you already They prosecute you upon the Statute of 25 th of Edward the 3 d. and upon the Common Law L. Staff And they lay aside that Statute L. H. Stew. What Statute L. Staff The 13 th of this King L. H. Stew. What say you Gentlemen once more Sir Fr. Winn. My Lords we have declared already to his Lordship and if my Lord had looked well upon the Articles of Impeachment he could not have put that Question but would have found himself impeached for Treason at the Common Law declared by the 25 th of Edward the 3 d. L. Staff So then they lay that aside of the 13 th of this King Mr. Serj. Maynard We do not mention any Statute but we mention the Crime and that Crime is against the Common Law declared by the Statute to wit The attempting the King's Death and the Subversion of the Government L. Stafford My Lords There is no doubt but the attempting the King's Death is a great and hainous Crime but my Lords I do not find that in the Impeachment there is any Overt Act at all And whether I shall answer to a Treason not proved by any Overt Act sworn by two Witnesses I submit to your Lordships But my Lords because your Lordships and the House of Commons may not think that I propose these things out of a desire of delay if your Lordships please it may be saved to me with all other points of Law I will go on to my proofs L. H. Stew. Yes
all these things shall be saved to you pray let us hear your Evidence L. Staff Since your Lordships hath granted me that be pleased to give me leave to go to my Evidence and I begin with Stephen Dugdale L. H. Stew. Set up Dugdale L. Staff Will your Lordships please I may have Pen Ink and Paper L. H. Stew. By all means my Lord. Which was given him L. Staff May it please your Lordships Stephen Dugdale said if I understand him aright and I ask him again that he knew something of the Plot 15 or 16 years ago L. H. Stew. What say you Mr. Dugdale you hear the Question Did not you say you knew of the Plot 15 or 16 years ago Mr. Dugdale I did say it and did explain my meaning in it I did say there was among us such a preparation to be made against the King died of Arms and Money that neither should be wanting L. Staff I beseech your Lordship to ask what proportion of Arms was to be provided L. H. Stew. What proportion of Arms was to be provided Mr. Dugdale I never heard it nominated how many absolutely I have heard of some Numbers I heard of late of 30000. that were to be raised beyond Sea what the whole number in England was I have forgot but I think I have heard Mr. Gavan and some of the Priests say That if there was occasion they should have at least 200000 to assist them that was of Men and I suppose they had Arms as well as Men. L. Stafford My Lords If this were true which he says Mr. Gavan said that they were 200000 I desire to know what Men he ment what Religion they must be of Lord High Stew. What Religion were they of that were to come in and help Mr. Dugdale He did not name them at that time but I understood them and so I apprehend the Company would that they were Roman Catholicks L. Stafford 'T is a strange thing that there should be 200000 Catholicks raised when there are not 20â—00 in England that can bear Arms. L. H. Stew. Good my Lord They might come from beyond sea and so they might be so many Roman Catholicks though there were not so many in England Mr. Serj. Maynard And he says not they were Roman Catholicks but he heard so Mr. Treby There might be so many Roman Catholicks and such as should be with them L. Staff Did he hear 15 or 16 Years that I was one to be among them L. H. Stew. Answer that Question Did you hear then that my Lord Stafford was to be one among them Mr. Dugdale I cannot remember it that I did my Lord. L. Stafford Then my Lords I make this use of it He tells you of a Plot 16 Years ago that 200000 Men in Arms were ready against the King's death Mr. Dugdale I did not say so my Lords I desire I may be understood aright L. Stafford You say you heard so Mr. Dugdale I speak as to the number of Men what I heard of late at the Consults and Meetings within these two Years L. Stafford But I speak of 16 Years ago what Number of Men was there to be raised Mr. Dugdale My Lords it was a general word that was amongst us That we must be provided against that time against the Death of the King but no Number at all L. Stafford This my Lords under favour I conceive does not concern me He tells you there was such a thing it might be so or it might not be so I am not concerned in it then 't is out of Doors as to what concerns me I conceive otherwise if the Gentlemen conceive otherwise they will say so Then my Lords the next thing is How long ago it is since I first spake to him about this Plot and I beseech your Lordships he may mention time and place L. H. Stew. You hear the Question Mr. Dugdale Mr. Dugdale The first time to my best remembrance L. Stafford I beseech you my Lords let us have no remembrance but let him swear positively L. H. Stew. There is no mortal Man can swear otherwise than according to his Remembrance L. Stafford When a mans Life and Honour and all he hath is at stake and indeed in Consequence every man in England is concerned if they swear not positively but still say as I remember who can make a Defence L. H. Stew. Mr. Dugdale Go on and say as near as you can and be as particular as you can upon your Oath Mr. Dugdale That which I can positively affirm is It was about August or September 78. L. Stafford He said yesterday it was in the latter end of August or the beginning of September which are two Months I beseech you what does he mean by the latter end of August how long before the end of August L. H. Stew. How long was it before the last day in August Mr. Dugdale My Lords I will not be positive but it was either in one Month or the other I did not keep a Diary or else I would give your Lordships satisfaction L. Stafford I beseech your Lordships he may positively say whether in August or nor in August or whether in September or not in September Mr. Dugdale I dare not venture to swear that I dare not do it L. Staff Then saving my Exceptions to the incertainty of that afterwards I would ask him what day was it in September that I spoke to him Mr. Dugd. I remember one was either the 20. or 21. of September 78. L. Staff My Lords he says the 20. or 21. does he say that was the first time he spoke with me Sir Jolm Trevor No no. L. Staff I beseech you my Lords they may not answer the Questions but the Witnesses they cry No no. L. H. Stew. My Lord you shall certainly have an answer to all the Questions you will ask L. Staff But when I ask they answer for them I would know whether that is the Course or no. L. H. Stew. Do not disquite your self for any thing that is said about you you shall have a fair hearing L. Stafford But my Lords I cannot but be disquieted when I hear these learned Gentlemen make Answers to my Questions for the Witnesses L. H. Stew. Mr. Dugdale Was the 20. or the 21. of September you speak of the first time you spoke to my Lord Stafford Mr. Dugdale No my Lords it was not L. Stafford Pray my Lords what day was it then I spoke first to him L. H. Stew. What was the day you first spoke to my Lord Mr. Dugdale Truly my Lords I cannot remember so well as to tell you L. H. Stew. Do you remember when my Lord came to Tixal Mr. Dugdale I remember one Sunday in particular but I cannot tell what day of the month it was L. H. Stew. Do you remember my Lord Stafford at Tixal in company of my Lord Aston and Father Evers Mr. Dugdale Yes I do L. H. Stew. Do you remember that any
discourse passed between them Mr. Dugdale Yes I do L. H. Stew. Was that before or after the 21. of September Mr. Dugdale Both before and after L. Stafford My Lords he says there was a Consult at Tixal where such and such were present and the Kings Death determined I ask when was that Mr. Dugdale That was in September I cannot say positively the day but in September or the latter end of August L. Stafford My Lords I must acquiesce and submit to your Lordships to do what you please but if he does not name times nor places how can I make my Defence I desire he may say positively within five days of the one or of the other and my Lords I will put it upon that if he say five days before the end of August or five days in the beginning of September which one would think is space enough that is ten days time L. H. Steward My Lords do observe how far Mr. Dugdale goes and that he is no further positive than he does express himself L. Stafford I beseech your Lordships I press this because it concerns me very much that he may be positive within five days over or under Lord High Steward Can you remember whether it were within five days of the one or of the other Mr. Dugdale Truly my Lords I cannot be positive if I had not made a particular Remark upon that of the 20 or the 21. I could not have remembred that for I did not then intend to reveal the Plot or else I could have given you satisfaction in that Lord High Steward My Lord your Lordship hath an answer to it he cannot speak more positively to it than he does L. Stafford I beseech you then how is it possible I can make my Defence Mr. Dugdale My Lords I kept no Journal if I had I would be more positive L. Stafford He says it was the latter end of August or the beginning of September I desire he will say whether it was the last week in August or the first week in September L. H. Stew. He answers he cannot tell your Lordship must make what advantage you can of that Answer L. Stafford I can make no advantage of it unless he does speak positively to the time My Lords I beseech you I may know what is the end of August and the beginning of September L. H. Stew. My Lord I hear you not L. Stafford If a man says the beginning of June I was at such a place how many days is the beginning and how many days the end of a Month How much time will your Lordships understand the meaning of that to be I am concerned extremely in the point of time for it is that which the whole Business depends upon I mean as to this man L. H. Steward My Lord go on with your Evidence I know not how to give you an Answer what Judgment my Lords will make of it or how much they will understand by it till they are withdrawn they observe how much you Lordship insists upon it and will hear what the worthy Gentlemen of the House of Commons will answer to it L. Stafford My Lords my whole business with this Fellow is concerned in a positive Answer to this Question I give him I think reasonable time to confine himself to L. H. Stew. What say you to the 20. or 21. of September my Lord L. Stafford My Lords I shall give a clear Answer to that anon but I am extremely concerned in this to know whether it was in August or September L. H. Stew. My Lord if your Lordship be concerned never so much at that the Witness can swear no more than he can swear He says about the latter end of August or the beginning of September will your Lordship stand still for that L. Stafford Well then I will go on as well as I can as for the matter of the 20. or 21. of September I beseech your Lordships I may ask Dugdale one Question whether at the Tryal of Sir George Wakeman or the Five Jesuits he did not say the Consult was in August if he deny it I shall prove it Lord High Stew. Mr. Dugdale my Lord asks whether at the Tryal of Wakeman or of the Five Jesuits you did not say it was in August Mr. Dugd. My Lords I did name there was a Consult at Boscobel in August but I do not remember that I did name my Lord Stafford in any Consult in August positively but as I say now the latter end of August or the beginning of September But I did name that there was a Consult at Boscobel in August 78. L. Staff My Lords He did say I was at the Consult in August Mr. Dugd. I did not say my Lord Stafford was there I don't charge him in it and if any such thing was printed I have wrong done me L. Staff Then he says he had nothing to do with me till the latter end of August or the beginning of September My Lords I beseech your Lordships to ask him whether in Sir George Wakeman's Tryal he did not say he was to receive Orders from me in June or July when I came into the Country L. H. Stew. Did not you say at Sir George Wakeman's Tryal that you were to receive Orders from my Lord Stafford in June or July when he came into the Countrey Mr. Dugdale My Lord I submit to your Lordship and the rest of my Lords here whether when that Question was asked by my Lord Stafford I did not say That the first time I entred into correspondency with the Consulters they told me my Lord was to come down then and I should receive Orders from him I had heard of my Lord Stafford before but not to enter into any Consults with him till he came down the latter end of that Summer L. Staff I beseech your Lordships pardon me I desire him to answer positively whether at the Tryal of Sir George Wakeman he did not say he was to receive Orders from me in June or July when I came into the Country L. H. Stew. Did you say so at Sir George Wakeman's Tryal Mr. Dugdale I believe I did say so for I had it from others and not my Lord Stafford himself L. Staff My Lords in June or July I was not in the Country L. H. Steward He says You were to come down not that you did come down L. Stafford If you will let him do thus there is no man safe I shall begin the Tragedy and millions will follow He swore at the Tryal of Sir George Wakeman or that of those other persons That there was a Consult at my Lord Aston's at Tixal where I was one in August Mr. Dugdale My Lords I did not swear so but in August or September or one of them as now I swear L. Stafford I shall prove it by the Book and Witnesses that were there Mr. Dugd. Then they did me wrong by printing it for I never said of your Lordship otherwise than
he would be revenged of my Lord Stafford did you Sawyer No of my Lord Aston Then another time being at Stafford he owed me Twenty nine Pounds and he was under the Serjeants hands and then he promised me from time to time he would pay me and did not keep his word This was three or four days before he begun to peach He bid me come such a day and he would pay me part of the money and when I came thither he told me it was reported That he should be a Peacher and that there was a speech how that he should have two hundred pounds for informing that there were Fourteen Priests in the Country but he takes a Glass of Drink and Thomas says he by God I wish this may be my Damnation and my Poison if I know of any Plot or any Priests L. H. Steward Was not he a Papist then Sawyer I cannot absolutely tell that whether he was or no. L. H. Steward Do you know one Father Evers Sawyer My Lords I have seen him Lord High Steward Hath he never been at Tixal Sawyer Yes My Lords I have seen him there L. H. Stew. And have not you seen Dugdale in his Company Sawyer Yes I have L. H. Stew. Did not you at Tixal think Dugdale a stout able Fellow Sawyer No he never was accounted to be so L. H. Stew. Then I ask you if you thought him an honest man or a rich man Sawyer No my Lords for I 'll tell you more than that my Lord Aston employed him to be his Bayliff and receive his Rents and to pay Workmen their Wages which he received every Saturday aud my Lord Aston did Accompt with him where he did set his hand to receive the poor Workmens Wages according to their Bills when they had not been paid some of them whole years and half years and quarters And they came and cryed to my Lord that they were not paid and thereupon Dugdale did say That one of them had demanded more of my Lord than was his due for he said he had reckoned such a day with him and paid him so much money which man said he was not that day at Tixal and so he hindred him of part of his money L. H. Stew. Did you ever know that Dugdale did forswear himself Sawyer That I do not know my Lords I did hear he was concern'd in a Race about which there was a Tryal and a Dispute which had won This â— have heard by report Sir Fr. Winn. Speak your own knowledge not Reports L. H. Stew. I ask you do you remember the day when my Lord Stafford came to Tixal Sawyer He came on the 12. day of the month L. H. Stew. What September Sawyer Yes the 12. of September L. H. Stew. Did you ever see Dugdale in the Company of my Lord Stafford while he was at Tixal Sawyer No never in the House but at the Race he hath come into the Parlour Mr. Treby You had Discourse with Dugdale you say he took a Glass and drank and wished it might be his Poyson Was not Father Evers that time at my Lord Aston's Sawyer Not as I know of my Lords Mr. Treby Was he not commonly there Sawyer Yes Mr. Treby If he were Mr. Dugdale must know it and how then could he take a Glass and wish it were Poyson if he knew where any Priest was since it was apparent he knew where that Priest was 'T is most improbable Mr. Dugdale should say thus Sawyer My Lords this was three or four days e're he confessed any thing he knew of his knowledge Mr. Treby What Perswasion of Religion are you Sawyer Of the Church of England Mr. Serj. Maynard Pray my Lords ask him one Question he says Dugdale went away from my Lord Aston's was not there a speech of a Plot at that time that was discovered Sawyer Yes that I heard Sir Fr. Winn. My Lords I would ask him one Question more Was there no discourse of the Death of a Justice of Peace that was said to be killed in London about that time Sawyer To my best remembrance as I heard there was Mr. Dugdale My Lords if your Lordships please that I should call Witnesses to confront him now or afterwards Sir Will. Jones Not now stay till your time comes L. Stafford Then call Philips who stood up L. H. Stew What is your Name Sir Witness Ralph Philips L. H. Stew. What are you a Clergy-man Mr. Philips Yes L. H. Stew. Are you beneficed Mr. Philips Yes my Lord. L. H. Stew. Where Mr. Philips At Tixal my Lord. L. H. Stew. You are a person that knows the Obligation that lies upon you to give a true Testimony what can you say of Mr. Dugdale Mr. Philips My Lords I have very little to say concerning Stephen Dugdale as to any thing of the Plot but in reference to what he should relate concerning Mr. Sambidge and me in the Narrative which he deposed upon the Tryal of Sir George Wakeman He said then he did receive a Letter concerning the death of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey which was dated the 12. of October as I remember and that he did communicate the Letter to Mr. Sambidge and me immediately the next Tuesday Whereas I will assure you my Lords I never heard neither by Letter nor word of mouth from him nor any other till it was publickly known L. H. Stew. You did not live in my Lord Aston's house did you Mr. Philips No my Lords Sir Will. Jones We know not what he says we desire to understand what he means L. H. Stew. He takes notice that Dugdale at the Tryal of Sir George Wakeman did depose touching a Letter dated the 12. of October which should come down to Tixal intimating the death of Sir Edmnndbury Godfrey and that he did communicate that with the Parson of Tixal and another which Parson comes now to say He did communicate no such a matter to him Sir VVill. Jones We desire to ask him whether he was present at that Tryal and heard him say so Mr. Philips I was not present at the Tryal but if the Narrative of the Tryal be truth he did say so L. H. Stew. So then you only come to disprove what is printed that Dugdale should say Mr. Philips Then I leave it to your Judgments whether what he said in the Narrative of that Tryal do concur with the Truth L. Stafford I desire then to ask him whether Stephen Dugdale did not run away from my Lord Aston's and would have him go to my Lord to own him for his Servant L. H. Steward What do you know of Dugdale's running away Mr. Philips I know nothing at all of that my Lords L. Stafford Whether he did speak to him for his Servant when he was in the Justices hands L. H. Stew. Can you say any thing touching the Credit of Dugdale Mr. Philips I have nothing to say concerning Dugdale's Credit L. H. Stew. Did you know him Mr. Philips Yes ever since I came
to Tixal L. H. Stew. How long is that Mr. Philips About fourteen years L. H. Stew. What Reputation had he in the Country was he looked upon as one that would perjure himself Mr. Philips I never knew any thing of that Lord High Steward Was he thought a stout man Mr. Philips He was in good repute with some and indifferent with others L. H. Stew. Will you call any more Witnesses my Lord L. Stafford I would only ask him one Question Whether he did go to my Lord Aston from Dugdale to know if he would own him for his Servant Lord High Steward What say you Sir did you Mr. Philips Yes my Lords he knows very well I did he did request me to go to him My Lord Aston I was loth to go to because I had no familiarity with him nor Interest in him but he did request and urge me so much that I did go by much motives and persuasions from him and I did speak to my Lord so I told him the Message I had was from Mr. Dugdale who would request of my Lord that he would own him for his Servant for if he did not he knew not what to do with himself but if he did he might be free from the Gaol and from the Oaths and escape the Troubles that were upon him So my Lord replyed to me 'T is his own act and deed and I have nothing to do with him and let the Justices do what they will with him which were Sir Walter Bagott and Mr. Kinnersley Mr. Foley We desire to know whether he heard any discourse about a Plot at that time or no. Mr. Philips Truly my Lords I heard a talk of a Plot but not at that time Mr. Foley My Lords I desire to know if he took Mr. Dugdale for a person that might be in the Plot if there was any such thing Mr. Philips I cannot tell how to answer that 't is an hard Question I am not so intimately acquainted with persons whose secrets are not reposed in me L. Staff The next Witness I desire may be with the leave of the Gentlemen of the House of Commons Sir Walter Bagott I did desire him to be here Sir Will. Jones There he is we do not oppose it L. H. Stew. Is it your Lordships pleasure that Sir Walter Bagott be heard in his place Lords Yes Sir Walter Bagott L. H. Stew. What would you ask Sir Walter my Lord L. Staff My Lords I desire to ask Sir Walter Bagott whether he did not apprehend Dugdale and upon what account it was L. H. Stew. Sir Walter Bagott my Lord desires to know of you whether you did apprehend Dugdale and upon what account Sir Walter Bagott My Lords Mr. Dugdale was taken at an unseasonable time of night and brought to me the next morning by the Watch as the other Witnesses have told your Lordships and I took him away to Stafford where there were several other Justices of the Peace there we offered him the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy which he took After the taking of these Oaths we told him that he was a likely man to know something of the Plot and it was a very proper time for him to discover it to us that were Justices he at that time did deny the knowledge of it that is all I can say Lord Stafford I desire Sir Walter Bagott may be asked whether he did not go to my Lord Aston to see whether he would own Dugdale as his Servant L. H. Stew. Did you ask my Lord Aston to own him for his Servant Sir Walt. Bag. Yes I did for my Lords house being in the way to Stafford whither I was going I called upon him to know if Mr. Dugdale were his Servant he told me he was no servant of his and he would not receive him Upon which I and another Justice of the Peace that was with me took him to Stafford The occasion of our meeting there was to summon in the Militia upon an Alarm of the Papists being risen in Derbyshire L. Stafford I make this use of it my Lords that my Lord Aston would not receive him and if my Lord Aston had known he had been in the Plot and could have discovered him he would not have disobliged him L. H. Stew. Nay he says more then that which you don't hear he says when they examined him they gave him the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy and then told him he would do well to discover his knowledge of the Plot and then he did not own any thing he knew nay he denyed it Mr. Foley Did he deny the knowing of it Sir Walter Bagott Yes he did then Sir Fran. Win. He was not resolved to discover at that time Mr. Serj. Maynard We desire Sir Walter Bagott may be asked whether he examined him upon his Oath or no. Sir Walter Bagott No I did not Mr Serj. Mayn But had they then just given him the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy Sir Walter Bagott Yes my Lords we gave him those Oaths and those only L. Stafford Then Mr. Kinnersley if you please who stood up Be pleased to ask this worthy Gentleman what he knows about Dugdales going from my Lord Aston L. H. Stew. First let us know this Gentleman L. Stafford His name is Kinnersley Mr. Kinnersley What Questions would your Lordship ask me L. Stafford What you know about Dugdales going from my Lord Aston L. H. Stew. Mr. Kinnersley we must know your Christian Name Mr. Kinnersley Thomas L. H. Stew. Do you know Mr. Dugdale Mr. Kinnersley My Lords I was not acquainted with Mr. Dugdale till Sir Brian Broughton Sir Walter Bagott and I and others gave him the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy the latter end of November or the beginning of December I did not take notice exactly of the time L. H. Stew. What year Mr. Kinnersley 78 L. H. Stew. Well Sir go on Mr. Kinnersley When he had taken the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy I asked him if he knew any Treason or Conspiracy against the King telling him it was a seasonable time to declare it He told me he knew of none This is all I know and all the discourse that I remember we had with Mr. Dugdale Mr. Serj. Maynard Pray why did you ask him that Question Mr. Kinnersley The Plot was then newly broken out Mr. Serj. Maynard Why did you ask him so particularly Mr. Treby Why did you think Mr. Dugdale concerned in it Mr. Kinnersley Because we heard he was a Papist and my Lord Aston's Servant L. Staff Then I desire Sir Thomas Whitegrave may be examined Who stood up L. H. Stew. What say you to Sir Tho. Whitegrave my Lord L. Staff Will your Lordships please to ask Sir Tho. Whitegrave whether he did not examine Dugdale about the Plot and what he said at that time Sir Tho. Whitegrave My Lords I came to Stafford the latter end of November or the beginning of December I am not certain which but I think it
serve him in case he shall need it Made at the Camp before Air this 4. of August 1676. Sheldon L. H. Steward What is the date of that Discharge Turbervill Mr. Turbervill 'T is in August 76. L. Stafford May I see it my Lords L. H. Stew. Yes deliver it to my Lord which was done and he looked upon it L. Stafford The thing looks like truth but there is no proof of it Mr. Turbervill The Seal is a little broke but the Name remains perfect L. Stafford He says here is a dismission from the Army in 76. how will that rectifie this mistake about 73. I understand not that Then the Court called for the Paper and it was looked upon by the Duke of Monmouth and some other Lords L. H. Stew. My Lord this Paper hath been looked upon the Hand is well known by those that should know it L. Stafford I do not say the contrary L. H. Stew. Whereabouts are you now my Lord then L. Stafford I am extreamly faint and weary that I am sure of This Gentleman told you yesterday that he spoke with me several times in France and that he was conversant with me for a fortnight together that he visited me and I proposed the Killing of the King to him and that he refused to give me an Answer then but told me he would give it me at Diep This he said yesterday as I remember And afterwards when he was gone down he came up again and desired to put your Lordships in mind of a particular Circumstance which he said he did remember That when he came to me I had the Gout and was in a lower Room of the House in such a Street which faced Luxenburgh House all which I stand not upon and that the Prince of Conde lived in the same Street on the left hand he said first and after on the right hand and after he knew not where and that I did lodge in the same Street Mr. Turbervill I did say I believed the Prince of Conde lived there but was not positive L. Stafford No but first he swears a thing and then only believes it Be pleased to call my Servants to know if ever I had my Foot ill of the Gout in my life Mr. Turbervill Your Lordship told me it was the Gout Lord Stafford If ever I put my Foot on a Stool or was lame there I will own all that he says But when a man swears his Evidence and goes down from the place and then invents and comes up again to tell new stories who shall believe such a man Mr. Turbervill I never went from the Bar. Lord Stafford I do say yâ—â— went down and had given all your Evidence and came up again and told this Circumstance I have not been lame not one moment these forty years and yet this Fellow this impudent Fellow to say that I was lame and put my Foot on a Stool He does not my Lords swear positively in any thing but this and this I can easily disprove in him L. H. Steward What say you to this particular Turbervill Had my Lord Stafford never the Gout while he was in France Mr. Turbervill He told me it was the Gout my Lords He had a great lameness he could not go from one place to another Here are several people to give Testimony that my Lord was lame within less time than he says Mr. Foley Hold hold Turbervill you must not give that Evidence now L. Stafford Call Nicholas Furnese again L. H. Steward What do you call him for L. Stafford Ask whether ever he saw Mr. Turbervill with me in France L. H. Stew. Were you with my Lord Stafford all the while he was in France Furnese Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. Did you never see Turbervill there Furnese No. L. H. Stew. Pray did you never see Father Anthony Turbervill there Furnese No my Lords I never heard of his Name L. Stafford Was I ever one moment lame while I was in France Furnese Not that I remember L. H. Stew. How long was my Lord there Furnese About three Months L. H. Stew. What time of the year Furnese At Paris in October and November in December at Rohan in January we came over into England L. Stafford Ask him if ever I put my Foot upon a Cushion or upon a Stool for lameness Lord. High Steward Mr. Turbervill did you ever see Furnese when you were in France Mr. Turbervill This Man my Lords L H. Stew. Yes Mr. Turbervill No not that I remember L. H. Stew. In what quality did you serve my Lord in France Furnese Furnese My Lords I waited on him in his Chamber L. H. Stew. Do you remember any other Servant of my Lords that you did see there Mr. Turbervill Truly my Lords I don't remember I might forget him Lord Stafford So I believe thou dost me too Mr. Turbervill Your Lordship that could call me Coward may say any thing L. Stafford You shall be as valiant as Hector if you will Pray call my other Boy Who stood up L. H. Stew. You little Boy were you all the while with my Lord that he was in France Leigh Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. Did you ever see Turbervill there Leigh No my Lords not that I know of L H. Stew. Had my Lord the Gout in France Leigh No nor never had since I have been with him L. H. Stew. That is six years Leigh Seven years almost my Lords L. H. Stew. Are you sure of that Leigh I am sure of it L. Stafford Now my Lords Mr. Turbervill says I writ him a Letter to Diep which Letter he can't find I beseech you what were the Contents of the Letter L. H. Stew. What were the Contents of the Letter my Lord sent you Mr. Turberv The Contents of the Letter were that I should not stay at Diep in expectation of him for he had appointed a Yatcht to come to Calice but I should make what haste I could to London and there I should meet with him L. Stafford I desire to ask whether I sent him word that Count Gramont came over with me Mr. Turbervill Yes my Lords to the best of my remembrance L. Stafford I shall now bring Witnesses that I did not come by Calice but by Diep and Count Gramont came not with me L. H. Stew. Mr. Turbervill which way came you from Diep or from Calice Mr. Turbervill From Diep my Lords L. Stafford And I came from Diep too L. H. Stew. My Lord came that way too he says Mr. Turbervill I know not of it he sent me word otherwise L. Stafford I shall now prove what I say pray call Mr. Wyborne VVho stood up L. H. Stew. What do you ask him my Lord L. Stafford Whether he did not see me at Diep and embark from thence for England Mr. VVyborne My Lords I will give you an Account as well as I can In the year 75. in December I had occasion to go over into France upon my own Concerns and
and some years since and was the great Confident of the said Lady and the said Remige was for the most part taken with her Ladyship into Morgan's Chamber when the Consults were held there where he hath often seen Father Gavan Father Towers Father Evans Father Sylliard Roberts White Owens Barry and the Earl of Castlemain and other Priests and Jesuits meet and shut themselves up in the said Morgan's Chamber sometimes for an Hour sometimes for two Hours more or less and at the breaking up of the said Consults have broke out into an extasie of joy saying They hoped ere long the Catholick Religion would be established in England and that they did not doubt to bring about their Design notwithstanding they had met with one great Disappointment which was the Peace struck up with Holland saying that if the Army at Blackheath had been sent into Holland to assist the French King when he was with his Army near Amsterdam Holland had certainly been conquered and then the French King would have been able to assist us with an Army to establish Religion in England Which expressions with many others importing their confidence to set up the Romish Religion they frequently communicated to this Informant And the said Morgan went several times into Ireland to London and several other parts of England as this Informant hath just cause to believe to give and take measures for carrying on the Design and the said Remige and her Husband having first clandestinely sold their Estate and fled into France about May or June last for fear of discovery This Informant by many Circumstances being assured that the said Mrs. Remige was privy to all or most of the Transactions of the Plot. And he saith that about May last was two Years he was present at Mass with the Lord Powis in Verestreet when the Earl of Castlemain did say Mass in his Priestly Habit after the Rites and Ceremonies of the Church of Rome EDWARD TVRBERVILL Sworn the 9th day of November 1680. before Thomas Stringer William Poulteny Edmund Warcupp L. H. Steward My Lord this Affidavit is to the purpose to which you call for it this does say that your Lordship did go by the way of Calice it does absolutely so L. Stafford Now whether he be forsworn or no your Lordships may judge by these three Witnesses Mr. Turbervill My Lords that which I grounded my belief of his going to Calice upon and so consequently that Affidavit was the Letter which I received from my Lord which I have looked for but cannot find L. H. Stew. This Affidavit does not say you went from Calice to England but you went with Count Gramont to Calice L. Stafford I conceive my Lords this Affidavit and his Narrative are word for word the same only that Amendment of 72 for 73 upon which I observed before he was forsworn once I cannot tell what to say if this man can be believed And Count Gramont came by Diep too but besides my Lords in this Affidavit he does not say he believed so by the Letter tho' now he speaks of one L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford was Count Gramont in your Lordships company when you came to Diep L. Stafford No my Lords he was in England before me a month but my Lords I cannot deny but I had one recommended to come over with me that pretended himself to be a French Count but the man was as errant a Rascal as this that swears against me and that was one that called himself Count de Brienne whom all the world knows to be a Cheat. L. H. Stew. Call your other Witnesses my Lord. L. Stafford Where is John Minhead Who stood up L. H. Steward Who do you belong to Minhead My Lord Powis L. Stafford My Lords Mr. Turbervill he says by the persuasion of my Lady Powis went to Doway and he staid in the Monastery three weeks and not liking that life he came away this may be true I say nothing to it But that which I take Exception at is this He says for this the Earl of Powis and his Lady when he came back from Doway were very angry with him and so were all his Relations and he stood in fear of his life from them Surely when Mr. Turbervill knew he was in such danger he would not have come near them Pray ask this Gentleman whether he was at my Lord Powis's and how he was entertained L. H. Steward Do you know Turbervill Minhead Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. Have you seen him at my Lord Powis's Minhead Yes my Lords L. H. Stew How was he received there Minhead Very well my Lords L. H. Stew When was that Minhead In the year 75. L. H. Stew. Was that before or after he came back to England Minhead It was after he came from Doway L. H. Stew. What Country man are you Minhead A French man L. H. Stew. What Religion are you of Minhead A Roman Catholick L. Stafford Pray ask him whether he lay in my Lords house Minhead Yes my Lords he lay with me in my lodgings L. Stafford And yet he says he was afraid of his life L. H. Stew. Did my Lord know he lay there Minhead Yes he must needs because he came through the Room to go to Bed L. Stafford May it please your Lordships he says he was threatned that he should have his Brother disinherit him and which afterwards was compassed Now I shall shew that this is impossible for he had no Inheritance to lose nor was to have none for his Brother who is elder than he this man being by a second Venter hath Children as I shall make appear by another of his Brothers who is here And this not being settled upon him who was by the second Venter could not come to him but for want of Issue of that Brother must go to the Uncle So he swears he was disinherited of an Estate when he was to have no Estate nor could have Call Mr. John Turbervill who appeared My Lords I desire you to ask him whether he knew that upon his coming back to England he was ill used Mr. J. Turbervill I never knew any unkindness from my elder Brother to him L. H. Stew. Are you his Brother Mr. J. Turbervill Yes my Lords by the Father not by the Mother L. H. Stew. Well what can you say Mr. J. Turbervill I never heard any thing when he returned from Doway that he was ill received by my Lord Powis but in a few days after my Brother and Sister came to Town we went to Bloomesbury and there we met together and my Brother complaining that he was unfortunate in that he had undertaken what he could not perform in going beyond Sea and now wanted a Livelihood my eldest Brother told him he had done as far as his Ability was he could do no more it was his own Choice and he had no more to say L. Staff Had he any money from his Relations Mr. J. Turbervill He
made intercession by Friends to my Sister and she told me that she gave him 7 l. to bear his Charges to Paris with that Proviso that he would never trouble them more L. H. Stew. But were they not angry with him Mr. J. Turbervill Here he is he cannot say they ever gave him an angry word in their days I 'm sure I never did L. H. Stew. Did you not forbid him the House Mr. J. Turbervill No. Mr. Edw. Turbervill These are people that take not the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy and therefore are not fit to be Witnesses L. Stafford Now your Lordships see what a Villain he is Mr. Serj. Maynard You must give good words my Lord for none but good words are given you Lord Stafford I must call them Villâ—ius or my self Traitor L. H. Steward You say they gave him 7 l. upon condition they should never see him more Mr. J. Turbervill I did not say my Sister said upon condition she would give him 7 l. he would never trouble us more it was his Declaration Lord Stafford One thing I wâ—â—ld ask Mr. Turbervill more and that is about this man's being disinherited Whether he could or whether he was Heir to any Estate or not L. H. Steward What say you to it Mr. J. Turbervill By all the Information of our Relations the Estate was made by my Grand-father to my Father for life and after my Fathers life to my Mothers and after my Mothers life to my Eldest Brother and the Heirs males of his Body and for want of such afterwards to me and the Heirs males of my Body and in case I had none then to my Fathers Brother and his Heirs males and if he had no Heirs males then after that to the right Heirs of the Grand-father This was before my time L. H. Stew. Well then that Remainder to the right Heirs might come to him and so there was some Estate for him to lose and that Remainder might be docked by the Tenant in Tail I would ask Was there any Recovery suffered to bar that Intail Mr. J. Turbervill Yes I think there was one upon my Brothers Marriage L. H. Stew. Mr. Turbervill Were you told you should be disinherited Mr. E. Turbervill Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. Who told you so Mr. E. Turbervill My eldest Brother L. H. Stew. What did he tell you Mr. E Turbervill He told me it should not come to me L. H. Stew. How should it come to you Mr. E. Turbervill I am not so good a Lawyer as to tell that whether it could or no but I thought by Succession Lord Stafford Then he says he came to serve my Lady Mullineux in 72. it may be it is so as he says I don't know it of my own knowledge but I pray he may answer whether it was in 71 or 72. Mr. J. Turbervill In January or February 71. Mr. Treby That is the beginning of the year 72 according to the Almanack L. Staff My Lords for the present I do not remember any thing more Oh yes my Lords he says he was at such a time at my Lord Powis's when my Lord Castlemain was at Powis-Castle which must be either in the year 72 73 or 74. Now I desire you would ask Mr. Lydcot whether my Lord Castlemain was there or could be there in any of those years Then Lydcot stood up L. H. Stew. What do you ask him my Lord Lord Stafford I desire to ask him whether in the year 72 73 or 74. which are the years Turbervill says he was at my Lord Powis's at Powis-Castle whether my Lord Castlemain was at Powis-Castle or could be there at that time L. H. Stew. Was my Lord Castlemain there in any of those years Lydcot My Lords I can prove he was not as much as I am capable of proving a Negative I was with him in the years 72 73 and 74. L. H. Steward Where Lydcot He was in England in 73. I was with him all the while and I am sure since I knew him he was never in Wales and I was never absent from him since I knew him which is nine years not four months in all I have travelled with him and been abroad with him L. H. Stew. Turbervill When do you say my Lord Castlemain was at Powis Castle Mr. Turbervill I think it was in the year 73. L. H. Stew. By what Token do you remember him there Mr. Turbervill He was arguing with my Lord Powis about Religion and several times he did so I believe it was in the year 73. L. H. Stew. What say you to that Lydcot I can assure your Lordships he was not there then I was always with him that year he had many times a design to go there but he could not but put it off and the last time he was there I can prove it was fifteen years ago L. H. Stew. I desire to know of you this Friend can you take it upon you to affirm upon the Faith of a Christian that you were never from my Lord Castlemain all the year 73 Lydcot I can give an account to half a week where he was And when I was absent from him it was beyond Sea and all that while I kept Correspondence with him every Post and received Letters from him constantly once a week dated from Liege This was in the time of my absence L. H. Stew. Were you at Liege when my Lord was in England or were you with him all the time that he was in England Lydcot My Lords I was with him all the time he was in England and was never absent from him all that compass of time but when he sent me into England from Liege L. H. Stew. Then he was at Liege himself Lydcot Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. Was that in the year 73 Lydcot Yes my Lords I was then in England But my Lords I can give you an whole account for my Lord and I never made any Journeys but I put them down L. H. Steward You say you can give a particular account of the whole year 73. even to the compass of four days in that year at most Lydcot No my Lords I do not say so but I say I can give an account of the whole time I have been with him within four months L. H. Stew. Were any of those months within the year 73 Lydcot No I was with him all the year 73. L. H. Stew. Will you take it upon you to say That every day in 73. you were with my Lord Lydcot Every day my Lords L. H. Stew. Every week Lydcot Yes I do not think but that I was My Lord did me the honour to make me as it were his Companion Mr. Serj. Maynard No you do your self the honour to make your self his Companion he made you his Servant L. H. Steward Come where are your Notes you pretend to speak by your Diary or your Journal let us hear a whole account of the year 73. for you come to testifie as if
the least concerned of any I thought and I hoped it would prove so I can take all the Oaths in the world I said no more L. H. Stew. What else do you know Porter Only such things as these he hath often said Earl of Shaftsbury Pray my Lords ask him how came Turbervill to talk of Witnesses about the Plot. L. H. Stew. Upon what occasion came Turbervill to talk of these matters Porter It was only voluntary of himself it was speaking of my Lord Powis and the rest of the Lords in the Tower Earl of Shaftsbury My Lords I mean of his own being a Witness L. H. Stew. How came Turbervill to say he hoped God Almighty would never forsake him so far as to let him swear against innocent Persons he was never called to be a Witness Porter But my Lords some of his Friends did say they were fearful of him in regard he was reduced to poverty His Friends were fearful L. H. Stew. Who were fearful Porter His Brother and Sister Mr. Turbervill and his Wife L. H. Steward Did he take notice to you that they were afraid he would come in Porter Yes Mr. Turbervill did tell me himself that they heard he would come in L. H. Stew. Have you said all you have to say Porter My Lords that is all I have to say L. H. Stew. Then call another my Lord. L. Stafford Where is Mr. Yalden Who stood up L. H. Steward What is your Name Witness Yalden L. H. Stew. Your Christian Name Witness John L. H. Stew. What is your Profession Yalden A Barrester at Law L. H. Stew. How long have you been called to the Bar Yalden I was called to the Bar last Trinity Term 12 months L. H. Stew. What House are you of Yalden Grays-Inn L. H. Stew. Are you a Practiser Yalden Yes my Lords L. H. Steward What Religion are you of Yalden Of the Church of England L. H. Steward Well what can you say Yalden I am summoned to appear by Order of this House and I desire to know of my Lord what he is pleased to examine me about L. Staff What Mr. Turbervill hath said in his hearing about the Plot. L. H. Stew. What Discourse hath passed between you and Turbervill about the Plot Yalden My Lords in February or March last I was walking in Grays-Inn-Walks with Mr. Turbervill and Mr. Powell and he dined with me a day or two after and there Mr. Turbervill and I were talking of the Distractions of the Times how Trade was ruined how the whole Kingdom was out of order and he was a little touched at some things and cryed out Go Dam me now there is no Trade good but that of a Discoverer but the Devil take the Duke of York Monmouth Plot and all for I know nothing of it L. H. Stew. That is odd that he should say it was a good Trade to be a Discoverer and at the same time say he knew nothing of the Plot. Yalden This I understood to be his meaning he cursed himself and them because he knew nothing of the Plot to discover for he would have got money by it as I understood as well as others Mr. Turbervill My Lords Mr. Yalden did declare yesterday he was summoned in by my Lord Stafford the last night and that he had nothing to say but what was by Hear say Mr. Yalden My Lords I do declare what I say is true and yesterday Mr. Powell gave me a Caution to take heed what I did and swore by God it would else be the worse for me L. H. Steward Who did Yalden Mr. Powell L. H. Steward Who is that Yalden Mr. Turbervill's Friend And I said I do not appear here as a voluntary Evidence but by an Order of the House of Lords I do not know what weight my Evidence may have for I can say nothing but what I heard him say and so perhaps it will be taken but for an Hear-say Mr. Turbervill You said you knew nothing but by Hear-say L. H. Stew. Will you ask him any Questions Gentlemen Managers No my Lords L. Stafford My Lords I shall not trouble your Lordships with any more Witnesses as to these Points I have here a Copy of the Warrant for the Yaught to go to Diep and if there be any Question whether I did come over from Diep at Christmas 75. if you please the Book may be searched L. H. Stew. My Lord it is all lost for I hear not one word L. Stafford I say my Lords if it be fit to trouble your Lordships with it I can prove that I did come over in the Yaught from Diep at Christmas 75. Here is the Copy of the Warrant for it to go for me And whether you will have it proved that I did come over thence I submit to you L. H. Steward I suppose that is fully proved already that you did come by Diep Managers We do not deny it L. H. Stew. You do not stand upon it Gentlemen do you Managers No no my Lords L. H. Stew. 'T is admitted to you my Lord. L. Stafford My Lords when I went from your Lordships Bar last night I had no thoughts of examining any Witnesss but what I have already done But my Lords since I was here there hath something happened about which I desire Dr. Oats may be called again I shall give you the reason why I move it afterwards upon something I heard yesternight L. H. Stew. Call Dr. Oats again Who appeared and stood up L. H. Steward My Lord what does your Lordship call him for L. Stafford He did say that he being a Minister of the Church of England did seemingly go over to the Church of Rome or some such words I desire he may answer that first L. H. Steward What say you Dr. Oats Yes I did say I did but seemingly go over L. Stafford I desire to know whether he was really a Papist or did but pretend Dr. Oats I did only pretend I was not really one I declare it L. H. Stew. What do you make of that L. Stafford I desire to know how long Dr. Oats was in Spain Dr. Oats My Lords I came into Spain in May and I came home again in November L. H. Steward That is six months L. Stafford He is called Dr. Oats I beseech your Lordships to ask him whether he were a Doctor made at the Universities here or abroad Dr. Oats My Lords if your Lordships please any matter that is before your Lordships I will answer to it but I hope your Lordships will not call me to account for all the Actions of my life whatever Evidence is before your Lordships I will justifie L. H. Stew. The Doctor hath never taken it upon his Oath that he was a Doctor and why do you ask it L. Stafford He is called a Doctor and I would know whether he did never declare upon his Oath that he took the Degree at Salamanca Dr. Oats My Lords I am not ashamed of any thing I
have said or done I own what is entred as my Oath before your Lordships and am ready to answer it but I am not bound to say what does not at all concern this business L. Stafford I say my Lords 't is entred upon your Lordships Books that he did swear at the Council he was at Madrid with Don John of Austria I would know of him whether he did so Dr. Oats My Lords I would have my Lord to propose the Question to the Court of Peers L. H. Steward Have you sworn any thing of Don John of Austria Dr. Oats My Lords I refer my self to the Council Book L. Stafford I beseech your Lordships I may have that Book L. H. Steward I believe it is in the Narrative turn to the Journal you have that mentioned there To which the Clerk turned but it could not be sound L. H. Stew. If you will not acknwledge it we must stay till the Book be brought Dr. Oats My Lords if your Lordships please I will repeat as well as I can what was said at the Council Table but I had rather the Council Book were fetched because I am upon my Oath but my Lords I always thought the Council Book is no Record upon any man L. Stafford I desire it may be produced or he own that he said so Lord High Steward What you said at the Council Table you said upon your Oath and 't is lawful to lay it before you Dr. Oats But if your Lordships please as to what was said at the Council Table if my Lord will bring any one Viva voce to swear what was said by me there that will make something L. H. Stew. That may be material as he says That your Lordship should bring some body to swear he said so for the Clerks may mistake him L. Stafford If your Lordships please that the Book may be sent for I will make it out Sir W. Jones It could not be read if it were here L. H. Stew. If the Clerks will swear what is in the Books it may Sir W. Jones But whether the Clerks will take that upon them or no may be Question Lord. High Steward Go on in the mean time L. Stafford I cannot conclude with him without it L. H. Stew. Where is the Council Book For the Clerks inform me 't is not in their custody but the Gentlemen of the House of Commons have been attended with the Book and other Papers relating to it L. Stafford In the mean time give me leave to say something though perhaps it may be nothing to the purpose Mr. Yalden was just now going down ' and Turbervill threatned to lay him by the Heels L. H. Stew. If he did so 't is a Misdemeanor and he must be punished for it Call Yalden and Turbervill L. H. Stew. Mr. Turbervill Have you dared or threatned Yalden the Witness to lay him by the Heels Mr. Turbervill I did not speak any such words to him Mr. Dugdale was just by me all the while L. Stafford I tell you but what he said and what I can prove by Witness pray call Yalden Mr. Turbervill This Gentleman Captain Scudamore stood by me too L. H. Stew. But I ask you upon this Misdemeanor Whether you threatned Yalden to lay him by the Heels Mr. Turbervill My Lords I stood by Mr. Dugdale till he was gone down L. H. Stew. How could he lay him by the Heels By what Authority could he do it Mr. Turbervill I did not speak such a word upon my Oath L. Stafford Ask Yalden I am told he did L. H. Stew. I am afraid you are misinformed my Lord for he could not do it 't is not in his power L. Stafford He threatned he would Goal him but if you won't Examine it I submit to you Dr. Oats My Lords Yalden it seems calls us a Pack of Rogues that give Evidence for the King and here are Witnesses of it Yalden stood up L. H. Stew. Yalden were you threatned by Turbervill Yalden Yes I will tell you how I was threatned my Lords Mr. Turbervill pulls me by the Arm when I had given my Evidence and asked me if I knew him and bid me take care L. H. Stew. Do you call that a threatning Yalden My Lords I did not make this Complaint nor did I desire it should be made but speaking this in the Room some body carried it to my Lord. Mr. Turbervill My Lords now he hath done let me speak I pray Mr. Yalden did say in the hearing of Captain Scudamore who is here he had got a great many Clients here but you says he have got nothing but a pack of Rogues Yalden That is a mistake L. H. Stew. This is fine work But Gentlemen will you call Captain Scudamore now or will you stay till afterwards Sir Fr. Winn. My Lords Mr. Turbervill desires it may be now and we do also desire it upon this occasion Captain Scudamore is a man of Quality and will give you a true account We did not think to have interposed in my Lord Stafford's Evidence but he having impeached our Witnesses of a Misdemeanor we conceive it fittest to clear it at this time Then Captain Scudamore was sworn L. H. Stew. Mr. Scudamore what are you called for Can you say any thing that happened between Turbervill and Yalden Captain Scudamore The Gentleman that is here that said he was one of Grays-Inn I do not know his Name L. H. Stew. 'T is Yalden Captain Scudamore I heard a Gentleman ask him if he came there to get Clients And he said I know nothing among you but Roguery L. Stafford Whereabouts did this Gentleman stand Captain Scudamore In the Passage Mr. Turbervill Here are five or six more that heard him say so Yalden That which I said was this That I might come hither for Practice but I did not come hither for Roguery L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford until such time as the Council-Book comes which may be sent for Will your Lordship proceed to something else L. Wharton My Lord Steward I humbly conceive That it was resolved in the Lords House the day before yesterday that no Book should be sent for out of the Court and it was done upon the Judgment of all the Judges of England Yalden My Lords They will not permit me to go down L. H. Stew. There is a strange Quarrel between you Witnesses and an Affectation of complaining one of another Let Mr. Yalden go down Sir W. Jones My Lords I would only acquaint your Lordships that the Council-Book that my Lord does make mention of was in the hands of our Clerk we did not know of it when it was first discoursed of but now understanding that here it is we desire it may be delivered in to any body that hath occasion for it L. H. Stew. Hand it in Which was done L. H. Stew. What day does your Lordship speak of L. Stafford The 28 29 or 30. of September Clerk Then this is not the Book
as for Dr. Perrot I never was at his Lodgings in my life and I never knew where he lay he hath been with me sometimes but I knew not that he was a Doctor But my Lords I desire I may not be ran down by these Fellows who do not speak a word true nor one tittle My Lords I have Witnesses in whose House Fenwick lay Call them and ask them if ever they knew me in their lives L. H. Stew. What kind of man was he Dr. Oats My Lords he is an ancient man he wears his own Hair L. H. Steward Is he a tall man or a low man Dr. Oats A lusty man L. Stafford Truly my Lords I never was at his house since I was born Dr. Oats My Lords I 'll tell your Lordships a Circumstance That Summer Don Francisco de Melos the Ambassador here was sick and I think he died of the Sickness Dr. Perrot was his Father Confessor I was waiting for Dr. Perrot some time for he promised to meet me at his Lodgings and this Gentleman the Prisoner at the Bar did come in there L. Staffo rd Where Dr. Oats Into Dr. Perrot's Lodging Dr. Perrot had a Kinsman there that waited on him and when my Lord came in he was in haste to speak with Dr. Perrot and he offered me half a Crown to fetch Dr. Perrot to him and I made him this Reply I was no Porter L. Stafford If ever I saw this man in my life since I was born or heard of his Name till the Plot then I will confess my self guilty of all Indeed when first I heard of the Plot they said there was one Mr. Oats discovered it but I did not know any such man Dr. Oats I went by another Name and went in another Habit and my Lord Stafford though his memory be bad yet it can't be so bad but that he must remember something of me L. Stafford I don't remember you I never saw your face in my life L. H. Steward You would have given him half a Crown to have fetch'd Dr. Perrot L. Stafford It seems then at that time I took him for a poor Fellow that I should offer him a shilling or two Dr. Oats It is like I was but I refused your half Crown and told you I was no Porter L. Stafford My Lords I shall give you Evidence that he was a poor Fellow since he gives me occasion to prove it nay that he was so poor that he was brought down to accept of 6 d. I will prove it by the party that gave it now he puts me upon it But my Lords this Doctor Oats says he saw some of my Letters I desire to know what was in them Did he take any Notes What was in them L. H. Stew. Did you when you had a sight of these Letters at St. Omers take any Notes out of them Dr. Oats What Notes I did take if I did take any I have not now in being but I do not remember that I did take any Besides my Lords we could keep no Papers by us but what we communicated to our Superiours and therefore it was still their care to look after their Papers themselves and in that Circumstance of time if they had known I had taken Notes out of their Papers it would have been prejudicial to me and indangered my life L. Stafford My Lords I infer this one thing further upon what this Doctor Oats tells you He did seemingly profess himself of the Catholick Religion and I do stand upon it that hereupon he is no competent Witness in that which he offers against me For he being of the Church of England for I think he professes himself so and wears that Habit I say any man let him be who he will in the world Church of England man or other that shall pretend himself to be a Papist for what end soever it be that he so pretends and dissembles with God Almighty which he must do to a great height in receiving that Sacrament which is by your Lordships and the House of Commons declared to be gross Idolatry is not easily to be esteemed a Witness I appeal to your Lordships to the House of Commons and every body whether such a Fellow that will abhor his Religion let him do it for any ends in the world be a man to be credited and especially ingaging in such a way to such an height in that which his Conscience tells him is idolatrous is not a perjured Fellow and no compleat Witness No Christian but a Devil and a Witness for the Devil And I appeal to the whole Christian World if a Protestant of the Church of England should come to be a Servant to a Catholick and pretend himself a Papist and were not so whether he were fit to be countenanced as it did once happen to me at Brussels fore the King came in one that was a Protestant came to be my Footman and he professed himself afterwards to be a Catholick and when I found he was not so I told him what a Villain he was and he ought to be punished severely I detest such dissembling with God and I think by the Laws of God and Man and the Holy Scriptures such a perjured man is no Witness I am sorry I have troubled your Lordships so long But now if you please to give me leave my Lords I will give you my Reasons why I called him now when I did remember how he had dissembled with God Almighty as I said before I did consider with my self sure this Dr. Oats must have been ever since he hath returned of a very severe strict and sober life for a man that hath so dissembled with God ought to shew himself of an exemplary peaceful pious civil life to testifie the truth and reality of his Repentance But last night when I came home and was siting by the fire side extreamly weary my Daughter here comes in and asks me if I had heard what had passed between Dr. Oats and the Lieutenant how he called the Lieutenant Rascal and Goaler sure then said I to my self this is not the quiet civil sober man that such a one that hath lived as he hath done ought to be And this is the reason I speak of it that he should call him vile Names Goaler and Rascal it did not become a man of his Coat to do it whether it was so or no I do not know but Mr. Lieutenant I suppose will satisfie your Lordships L. H. Steward What did Oats say to you Mr. Lieutenant Mr. Lieuten My Lords I was desiring Mr. Oats that he would keep the people down because there was a great croud and seeing a great many people come in he told me they were Witnesses that were to come in said I I believe half of these are not Witnesses and the door opening so often I could keep this place in no order so I desired they would stand away that were not Witnesses why says he you are but a
Goaler then I told him if it were not for his Coat and I were out of this place I would break his head Then he called me Raskal L. Stafford My Lord Steward I desire to know whether this be a Witness fit to be believed against any man L. H. Stew. Mr. Oats this does not become you 't is very ill manners in you Dr. Oats My Lords the Lieutenant of the Tower hath the Law and I refer my self to the Law if I have done him any wrong Mr. Serj. Maynard It did not become Mr. Lieutenant of the Tower to tell him he would break his head Mr. Lieutenant Why if any man out of the Court or in another Habit should tell me I was a Goaler I think I should not deserve to be the Kings Lieutenant if I did not break his Head Mr. Serj. Maynard Pray tell the Court so But yet under favour you ought not to threaten him for a word to break his head L. Stafford My Lords I do say this to your Lordships a man that hath dissembled with God Almighty in so high a nature as he ackowledges himself to have done ought to be a man of a very severe life afterwards and not so passionate and cholerick as it seems this fellow is L. H. Stew. Will your Lordship proceed L. Stafford For this man truly I shall say no more I think I have said enough to make him appear a person not fit to be believed I would only ask Stephen Dugdale a Question if you please 't is but a little I won't hold you long I only ask and if he deny it I 'le prove it whether he was not a Prisoner at Stafford for Debt when he made the first Affidavit L. H. Stew. Were you a Prisoner for Debt at Stafford when you made your first Affidavit Mr. Dugdale In the Serjeants hands I was my Lords L. Staff For a very great Debt my Lords some hundreds of pounds and he was a fellow not worth a Groat And my Lords Dr. Oats says I offered him half a Crown and he refused it I call Ellen Rigby to prove he was so poor he begg'd for six pence Dr. Oats I will save my Lord the trouble of proving any such thing My Lord Stafford says I was a poor man and had not six pence in my pocket I can make it appear to the House of Lords that sometime since I came in upon this Discovery I have not had two pence in my pocket and sometimes I have not had six pence but a mans Pȯverty is no objection against his Honesty L. Stafford Where is Ellen Rigby to prove whether she did not give him six pence But then my Lords pray ask him whether he did not swear at a former Tryal he had spent six or seven hundred pounds more than he got L. H. Stew. Did you say at a former Tryal you were five or six hundred pound out of purse Dr. Oats My Lords I will satisfie this House what I said what folks write after me I am not to justifie But my Lords I had a Friend of mine presented me with 100 l. I name not his Name but if that be questioned he is a Peer of this House and will justifie it I had 100 l. for my Narrative I had 100 l. for taking some Jesuits which is 300 l. I had for some other Copies that I printed a matter of 50 or 60 l. And now I can make it appear that as to those Sums which I received in gross I have spent them all and more in this Service for I have none of the money now by me L. Stafford He makes out but 350 l. and he swore he was out 700 l. but he does not swear one true tittle nor is any whit to be believed Dr. Oats If you expect I should prove it I can prove it now Managers Be quiet Dr. Oats we will do you right anon L. Stafford My Lords I do not know for the present that I have any thing else to trouble your Lordships with I remember these Gentlemen when I asked them if they had any more Evidence to give in said No unless I should give them some occasion and now I desire your Lordships if they bring any new Evidence that I may have time to answer it L. H. Stew. God forbid but you should have liberty to answer any Objection Sir W. Jones My Lords before we go about to sum up our Evidence we shall have occasion to call some Witnesses and that will be to fortifie what our Witnesses have said to discover what kind of Witnesses have been made use of against them and to falsifie what my Lords Witnesses have said in some particulars These will be the three Heads for which we desire to call Witnesses And because my Lords we will not trouble you with making one intire Narration of what they can say or to what purpose we call them before they come we desire the favour that we may acquaint your Lordships with it still as we call them for that we think will be the way more clearly to be understood My Lords we shall begin to make good by other Witnesses some things said by Mr. Dugdale for he was our first Witness and therefore in order of time we will first begin with him My Lords the Prisoner at the Bar was pleased to object L. Stafford My Lords I would not interrupt him but I would ask whether there were more than two heads that he proceeds upon to fortifie their own Evidence and to falsifie mine Sir W. Jones My Lords I think we may comprehend all under those two heads But my Lords you observe one great matter my Lord did insist upon yesterday was this That he it is true hath seen Mr. Dugdale at my Lord Aston's though by the way I must say this my Lord at the first did not seem to know him L. Stafford I did not know him in his Peraiwig L. H. Stew. Do not interrupt them my Lord for they must have the same liberty that you had to go on without interruption Sir Will. Jones We must have the same freedom my Lord had I will do his Lordship that right he did afterwards recollect himself and say His Perriwig had made that alteration in him that he did not know him But my Lord was also pleased to say yesterday That though he did know him yet he looked upon him as so mean and inconsiderable a fellow that he did purposely avoid all discourse with him and that sometimes when he was a dry at my Lord Aston's he would not speak to him to help him nor to call one to help him to drink My Lord was pleased yesterday also to deny that ever he had any Converse with him but only that one time when indeed Mr. Dugdale did desire to make use of my Lord that by his interposition he might have leave to go to the Foot-Race My Lords your Lordships very well perceive we are now going about to prove a
with my Lord. L. Stafford Did he hear us discourse or any word we said Mr. Ansell No I did not Sir Will. Jones My Lords if you please before Ansell go away we would ask him a Question to another point and that is For what reason Dugdale was secured whether he went away for Debt or no L. H. Stew. Do you know wherefore Dugdale was secured or why he went from my Lord Astons Mr. Ansell I can't tell why he went away whether for fear of the Plot or no I can't tell Sir VV. Jones What discourse was between you and Dugdale about it Mr. Ansell Where There was a discourse at Stafford when he was there Sir VV. Jones But before he went away Mr. Ansell I came to my Lord Aston's one day and told Mr. Dugdale I heard say he was concerned in the Plot for I told him I was amongst some people and they say you are concerned in the Plot. And this was about a fortnight after the News was hot in our Country L. H. Stew. What said he Mr. Ansell He laughed at it and said God blast him if he knew any thing of it L. Stafford So he denied it then Sir VV. Jones Pray Sir at that time did he say he knew any thing about my Lord Aston and why my Lord Aston did use him ill Then my Lord Stafford objected Mr. Dugdale was too near the VVitness and desired he might go down and it was ordered accordingly Sir Fr. VVin. My Lords we would ask this man what does he know of Dugdale's concealing himself after he had heard of the discourse about the Plot. Mr. Ansell I know not that my Lords he was fearful of coming in company what his discourse was I do not know Sir VV. Jones My Lords now if it please your Lordships we will go to another particular Yor Lordships will please to remember that yesterday there were two Witnesses called by my Lord Stafford that is Sambidge and Philips Sambidge was the old Gentleman that was deaf and a little passionate too because he was once summoned to Litchfield Court Mr. Philips was the Minister of Tixal And both these did testifie That whereas Mr. Dugdale had sworn at a former Tryal that he did give notice before them of the death of Sir Edmunbury Godfrey upon Monday which as I take it was the 14. of October there was no such notice given in their presence Mr. Dugdale did affirm they were by and that he gave notice before them others This was made use of by my Lord to invalidate the Testimony of Mr. Dugdale that he should go and affirm at a former Tryal that he did give notice of the death of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey within two days after he was killed before any one knew of it and Dugdale must needs know it from the Jesuits and both of these Gentlemen being now in Court do deny that they heard of it at that time My Lords we shall prove to you here that he did give notice of it at that time and that they were both present For Mr. Sambidge it is not so strange he should not observe it he was very deaf and he could hardly hear yesterday and as he was deaf so he was very passionate As for Mr. Philips I cannot say that as to him but perhaps he cannot at that distance of time remember but we will prove by undeniable Witnesses that notice was given that Munday and that these persons were by when it was given Sir Fran. Winn. This Witness we use to another purpose besides this but we will ask him only to this now L. Stafford I desire the Witnesses may stand by themselves L. H. Stew. Let them take care that there be but one Witness at a time and that no body approach them while they are giving their Testimony Sir Will. Jones We did not make the like desire as to my Lords Witnesses L. Stafford In troth you might with all my heart if you would Sir Will. Jones It may be so but we did not fear them so much Swear William Goldsmith which was done Sir Will. Jones I would begin with James Ansell who appeared and stood up again Sir Fr. Winn. If your Lordships please we would ask him what he knows of a discourse about the Justice of Peace's death to tell the time and what it was that was said We only ask general Questions L. H. Stew. What discourse did you hear of the murder of a Justice of Peace and when Mr. Ansell My Lords I heard it at Tixal L. H. Stew. When did you hear it first Mr. Ansell The 14. of October L. H. Steward Who did you hear it from Mr. Ansell From Mr. Dugdale L. H. Stew. The Letter was dated the 12. Where did you hear of it Mr. Ansell It was at one Elds House an Alehouse in Tixal L. H. Steward Where Mr. Ansell At an Alehouse hard by my Lords L. H. Stew. Who was by Mr. Ansell When that was spoken there was I and VVilliam Hanson and Mr. Sambidge and Mr. Philips L. H. Stew. Did Dugdale speak with them at that time Mr. Ansell Yes he was with them at that time but he spoke with me at the Parlor for he sent for me into the Parlor L. H. Stew. Then at the same time he spake it to you and they were in the House Mr. Ansell Yes he came from them to me into the Parlor and went to them again Sir Will. Jones My Lords I hear him speak to the day of the Month if you please to ask him if he can tell what day of the Week it was Mr. Ansell It was on a Munday L. H. Stew. That is right the Letter was dated on Saturday the 12. of October Sir Fr. Winn. I would ask him whether afterwards he came into the Room where Mr. Philips the Parson was Mr. Ansell Yes Sir Fr. Winn. Was there any discouse after you came in about the Death of â— Justice of Peace Mr. Ansell I cannot tell that L. H. Stew. Will you please to ask him any thing my Lord L. Staff Indeed my Lords he says nothing concerning me therefore I say only this I desire to know if he can tell what time of day it was Mr. Ansell It was the Forenoon Sir W. Jones Then call Will. Hanson again who appeared Sir Fr. Winn. We call him to the same Question Do you declare to my Lords what you know of Mr. Dugdale's acquainting you with the Death of a Justice of Peace and when it was Mr. Hanson I heard Mr. Dugdale say at Old Elds house at Tixal There was a Justice of Peace murdered that lived at Westminster L. H. Steward When did he tell you so Mr. Hanson The day that I went to run the Race the 14. of October Sir Fr. Winn. Can you remember what day of the week it was Mr. Hanson It was Munday L. H. Steward Was it the Forenoon or Afternoon Mr. Hanson The Forenoon L. H. Stew. What Company was in the house when he
there is an Accompt made up under his own hand of almost Two or Three hundred Pounds which sum I cannot say but one of them I am certain of which he hath denyed several times that he had it but I can prove that he hath it if he will be pleased to produce that Book we need not be a quarter of an hour in making up the Accompt He did speak of some other sums he had to place to Accompt too but so much was made up already But Captain Hawley saying he would not speak with him nor any of us from him I did take the liberty to say to Captain Hawley That it was hard his Lordship and his party should abuse Mr. Dugdale at that rate to make him his Debtor for now I understood by what Mr. Dugdale said my Lord was his Debtor And said I if I can perswade Mr. Dugdale he shall publish his Case for the Protestant Interest suffered by it That he should be made a Debtor to my Lord when he was not so And I believe Capt. Hawley told my Lord Aston what I did say for when he came back again from my Lord Aston he said my Lord did acknowledge he had that Book and it was ready to be produced but he would stay till a Councellor of his came out of the Country and till he had spoke with the Lieutenant for he would not speak with Mr. Dugdale unless the Lieutenant were by and in three or four days time he would send for him but I never heard that he sent for him ever since If it please your Lordships I have one thing more that I remember There was a young man that belonged to my Lord Aston's Family that heard Mr. Dugdale was at Captain Hawley's Chamber and came to see him and paid a very great respect to him and would stand bare to him though Mr. Dugdale desired him to put on his Hat several times Some of us asked him whether Mr. Dugdale was thought to be such a Knave when he lived with his Lord as they would have made him since No said he Mr. Dugdale was as honest a Gentleman as ever lived in our Family I remember my Lord Aston's man said this to us then L. Stafford My Lords Will you be pleased to give me leave if I speak impertinently I am under your correction I conceive I shall have something to answer this but I would first know whether I may desire of your Lordships that I may have my Lord Aston here to give an account of this matter Sir Will. Jones If he were here he could not be heard being a person accused for the same offence L. H. Stew. My Lord he stands Indicted for the same Treason and cannot be a Witness L. Stafford I beg your pardon my Lord. Nicholas Boson was sworn L. H. Stew. What is your Name Witness Nicholas Boson Sir VV. Jones Declare to my Lords what you know concerning Mr. Dugdale's pressing my Lord Aston to come to an accompt Mr. Boson In January last I met with Mr. Dugdale and one Mr. Noble and one Mr. Colledge And Mr. Dugdale desired us to go down with him to the Tower He said he had an Order of the Council to pass his Accompts with my Lord Aston and when we came there we enquired for Captain Hawley and desired him that he would acquaint my Lord Aston that he was there to accompt with him Captain Hawley went up to my Lord Aston and brought word back again my Lord was not at leisure or would not speak with him or to that effect whereupon Mr. Dugdale said it was very hard that he should be aspersed to owe my Lord Mony and he would not come to accompt with him For my Lord Aston had a Book or Books in his custody which he would stand by and they would determine the business between them that my Lord Aston was almost Two hundred pounds in his debt And pray says he Captain Hawley do me the favour to go to my Lord Aston again and desire him that he will be pleased to produce that Book or Books If I owe my Lord any money I am ready to pay him and if he owe me any I hope his Lordship will do the like by me as I am sure he does Two hundred Pounds Captain Hawley went away and brought this Answer That his Lordship would send for him in some short time assoon as a Coâ—nellor did come out of the Country whom he had entrusted with his Books and that was one Birch as near as I remember Sir Will. Jones We have done with this Witness And because we desire to conclude as to Mr. Dugdale we shall call some persons of Quality as to his Reputation my Lord having gone about to make him a man of no Reputation Mr. Boson I can speak too about the Boy that came in Sir VV. Jones There is no need of that now we shall trouble you no further Sir Your Lordships will be pleased to observe That Mr. Philips the Minister that was one of my Lord Stafford's Witnesses did say Mr. Dugdale was a man of whome many spoke well and some indifferently and perhaps that is the case of most good men for scarce any are so good that all speak well of them but that many should speak well and some indifferently of him may be the lot of a very good man We shall call some Witnesses and begin with Mr. VVhitby a Justice of the Peace that will tell you he hath known Mr. Dugdale long and what Reputation he is of Thomas Whitby Esq sworn Sir John Trevor My Lords We desire your Lordships would be pleased to ask him what Reputation and credit Mr. Dugdale was in in my Lord Aston's Service Mr. VVhitby My Lords I have known Mr. Dugdale to be a Servant to my Lord Aston this nine or ten years he was Steward to him and there was no other person between my Lord and him he received my Lords Rents and Debts for him exchanged his Lands for him in forty places I exchanged some Land with my Lord my self and he was the man that did it He was very hard for my Lords advantage and did what he could for my Lords profit Sir John Trevor What do you know more as to his dealing Mr. VVhitby He was a person that was next to my Lord and did rule and govern the rest of the Family All the Servants were under him Sir John Trevor Was he looked upon to be an honest man in his dealings Mr. VVhitby As to what I had to deal with him he was an honest man I never heard the contrary I have heard some Tradesmen complain that he hath put them off without Money would not pay them what my Lord owed them L. Stafford I desire that Mr. VVhitby may be here when I shall have occasion to say something to him Sir VV. Jones That will be I hope by and by for we have almost done Call Mr. VVilliam Southall VVho was sworn L.
Sir you need not question his Majesties Gracious Promise my Life for yours if you have not his Pardon but I will take special care about it for I will send up a Letter to London directed to some of the Lords which I accordingly did and I will also speak to Captain Lane who is a worthy Gentleman to interpose in it too Then said he I will make a discovery of the Plot. Then my Lords he told me first some particular passages relating to this Lord at the Bar and also concerning Mr. Evers and Mr Peters now in Custody and some other particulars I wished him that he would speak no more at that time And when I parted with him forthwith I consulted with my self what I ought to do in point of Law I knew I must discover that a further discovery might be made of what had passed between us Then I went to Mr. Freek who was either Mayor or Justice of Peace in Stafford and told him he must come with me to Serjeant Parry's He asked me what to do I told him when he came he should know he accordingly came and took short Notes of a further Discovery and Mr. Freek he certified it up to Mr. Chetwyn who was then at London Upon the day following the 24 th I rose and went to one Mr. Vernon one of His Majesties Justices of the Peace and told him what had happened and he sent for Captain Lane another of His Majesties Justices of the Peace and they took an Examination of him I have done my Lord with reference to his Discovery and the time L. H. Steward Do you remember what he mentioned of my Lord Stafford what he said of him Mr. Southall Truly my Lords I can only tell what he said at the first Examination he told me the first time my Lord Stafford spoke with him was at Tixal-Hall nigh to the Gate-House betwixt the Gate and the Hall My Lord was going into the Hall and my Lord Stafford told him it was a very hard thing or to that purpose that they could not say their Prayes but in private and after told him the same day or night t'one that they had some work to do and he might or must be instrumental in it This was the effect of what he told me passed the first time Another time I think he told me he was to have five hundred pounds to kill the King Lord High Steward When did he tell you so Mr. Southall Not till Captain Lane examined him which was the second time he was examined which was about the 26 th L. H. Stew. Did he swear that before Vernon and Lane Mr. Southall Yes he did I could give your Lordships a Breviate of what he swore then L. Stafford I desire he may give that Breviate Mr. Southall I took some Notes of what he swore then L. H. Stew. Have you them by you or about you Mr. Southall Yes my Lords I have L. H. Stew. Produce them Mr. Southall I took this upon some Paper I had in my Pocket and is the substance of what he swore Which he delivered to the Clerk Clerke December the 24th 1678. Mr. Dugdale informeth That in September last he met in Tixall the Lord Stafford nigh to the Gates who said That it was sad they were troubled they could not say their Prayers but in a hid manner but suddenly there would be a Reformation to the Romish Religion and if there be a good success we shall enjoy our freedom And that upon the 20th day of September 1678. the said Lord Stafford told this Informant That there was a Design in hand and if he would undertake in it he should have a good Reward c. and make himself famous The same day this Informant went up into Mr. Francis Evers Chamber to know what my Lord Stafford meant by his words and he first made him swear secresie upon his knees and then told him That he might be a person employed and have a good Reward and make himself famous if he would stand instrumental with others in taking aatay the Kings Life by Shooting or otherwise and need not fear for that the Pope had Excommunicated the King and that all that were Excommunicated by him were Hereticks and they might Kill them and be Canonized for Saints in so doing And that the Design was as well to Kill the Duke of Monmouth as well as the King December the 29th 1678. This Informant saith That since the 20th day of September last the said Lord Stafford did promise him Five Hundred Pounds as to the carrying on of the Plot and that Mr. Evers should give him instructions about the same And that the Lord Stafford told him he did not doubt of his fidelity for Mr. Evers had given him a good character to be trusty And that the Lord Stafford told this Informant That there was a Design to take away the Life of the King and the Life of the Duke of Monmouth and that several others were to be imployed in the Design besides this Informant And that this had been throughly considered of to be the fittest way for the establishing of the Romish Religion And that at the said time the said Lord Stafford laid his hand upon his head and prayed God to keep him in his good mind and to be faithful to what he had intrusted him in c. And this Informant further saith That he doubting of the Lord Stafford's payment the said Mr. Evers promised him the making good of my Lord Stafford's promise c. And further saith that he saw a Letter directed from my Lord Stafford to Mr. Evers and he read the same and knows it to be my Lord Stafford's writing and that therein was written that things went on well beyond the Sâ—as for the carrying on the Design and so he hoped it did do here in England c. Sir Will. Jones My Lords we will examine no further as to Mr. Dugdale But will conclude with this Witness and I think he speaks fully to him The next Witness we called was Dr. Oats and your Lordships have been pleased to observe That what Exceptions have been made against him have not been so much by Witnesses produced as by opposing one part of his Testimony to another what he swore at one time to what he swore at another to which we shall give an Answer when we come to sum up our Evidence for there will be no need of Witnesses to what is objected against Mr. Oats but only of Observations but as to the third Witness Turbervill we have something to answer of Witness and someâ—â—ing by way of making Observation We will first call our Witnesses Then Mr. Southall desired his Paper again which the Court told him he should have a Copy of from the Clerk Sir W. Jones And our first Witness is to this purpose It was objected against Mr. Turbervill L. H. Steward Have you done with Dugdale You have forgot to give an Answer to the objection
out a Priest one Charles Prichard and I think also if I mistake not one Morgan my Lord Powis's Priest I spoke with him before he went I sent Letters down with him I spoke with him afterwards he hath been in my family some time he hath behaved himself very well there and in several other sober families nearly related to me I have not heard a better character of any man from all sorts of people than of him in my life Sir VV. Jones Did he tell you any thing of the Plot Sir Mr. Arnold My Lords I did several times find by him that he knew much having conversed both in France and here with Jesuits and Priests I pressed him oftentimes to discover his knowledge and to come in to the Council but he gave me such Answers why he did not that I could not answer Sir VVilliam Jones What were they Sir Pray tell us Mr. Arnold That the Witnesses that were come in were in danger of their Lives that they were discouraged that they were discountenanced and as long as the Duke of York had that power in the Conncil that he had and my Lady Powis's Brother had that power over those Countreys where he lived which his Lordship is often pleased to call his Province he durst not do it for his Life Then Mr Hobby was sworn Sir Will. Jones Do you know Mr. Turbervill and how long have you known him Mr. Hobby My Lords I have known Mr. Turbervill near four years L. H. Steward What account can you give of him Mr. Hobby My Lords my first acquaintance with him was at my Brothers House in Glamorganshire When I came there my Brother shew'd him me and told me he was a very worthy man but his Friends had cast him off because he would not take Orders in the Romish Church He lived at my Brothers above a year and when he came thence my Brother writ a Letter of Recommendation to my Father to receive him there and do him all the kindness he could He came to my Father's and stay'd there near half a year or thereabouts I cannot tell to a Month or so Since I have known him often in this Town and been in his company and I never knew nor heard but that he behaved himself like a worthy honest Gentleman but as to any thing of the Plot I know nothing Sir VV. Jones We ask you not to that Where is Mr. Matthews Then Mr. Matthews a Divine was sworn Sir VV. Jones Mr. Matthews pray tell my Lords Whether you know Mr. Turbervill and how long have you known him Mr. Matthews Yes My Lords I have known Mr. Edward Turbervill for about four years last past L. H. Steward Go on what do you know of him Mr. Matthews My Lords he lived some time in my Neighbourhood I never knew him guilty of any ill action at all but a person of a very fair Reputation He acknowledged himself a Roman Catholick and was pleased to give me the liberty to talk to him I found him inclinable to hearken to me and to those Reasons I offered to him and I found he had a mind to quit that Religion being convinced by the Arguments I gave him and as several times he hath since told me those were some of the great motives of his coming over from the Romish to the Protestant Communion L. H. Stew. What were the Motives Mr. Matthews One was the hazard I told him of in his living in the Roman Communion as to Salvation another was the excellency of the Doctrines of our Church its Principles and Practices L. H. Steward Did he acknowledge to you he knew any thing of the Plot Mr. Matthews No not a syllable of it Sir Will. Jones We don't call him to that purpose Then another Witness was sworn L. H. Steward What is your Name Witness William Seys Sir W. Jones Pray will you acquaint my Lords what you know of Mr. Turbervill Mr. Seys I have been acquainted with him this two or three years and I never knew him guilty of any ill action my life I never heard of any body that could asperse him but he hath behaved himself like a very honest civil Gentleman Sir Will. Jones Where were you acquainted with him Mr. Seys Here in London Then Captain Scudamore stood up again Sir Will. Jones He was sworn before we desire he may speak to Mr. Turbervill's Reputation Capt. Scudamore My Lords I have known Mr. Turbervill for these three quarters of a year I have been acquainted with him in London he hath been much at my House and all that while I saw nothing in him but that he is a very honest Gentleman Sir William Jones My Lords I think we have but one matter more which we should have mentioned before but that our Witness was not come but I hope we shall have the favour of some Honourable Lords that do know the thing and I think there are many more that can prove it My Lord Stafford who is very ancient it may be may not remember matters exactly I blame him not Oblivion is the great infirmity of old age He was pleased to say Yesterday he had so good health that he had not been lame I think he said for these Forty years but at last his Page said for the last Seven years and I shall confirm our proof to that time My Lords I think there are some Honourable Lords here that have seen this Noble Lord that says he was not Lame in so many years very near about the time he was confined and imprisoned go Lame and come Lame to the House and ease himself by holding up his Legg sometimes My Lords I do not say the Circumstance is very material but only to shew my Lord may forget himself which I shall impute to his old Age. L. Stafford I will acknowlede it if your Lordships please I did say I had not been lame with the Gout so long no more I have not I was troubled with the Sciatica many years but 't is above eight or nine years since that and I took so much Opium that that and my going to the Bath cured me I have often come lame to the House out of weariness and old Age but if ever I put my Foot upon a Stool for the Gout or was ever so lame as to put my Foot upon a Cushion to ease it I will admit what he speaks to I 'll acknowledge thus much to save time Sir Will. Jones Seeing my Lord is pleased to go off from it I 'll call no Witnesses to it L. Stafford I go off from nothing I was lame three or four years when the King came in I went to the Bath and afterwards into Germany and what with Opium and the Bath I was cured and I have not been lame these eight or nine years I have not had the Gout in my Foot for these many years and I never was so lame to put my Foot on a stool to my remembrance Sir VVill. Jones
but puts them off and makes them complain says my Lord my Son is now at Standall but I will tell him as soon as he comes home and if you will bring the persons that have waited so long for their money and made so many journeys you shall hear what he will say to it Within a while my Lord Aston that now is came down and I went thither to see what became of it And I went to the Bâ—wling Green where my Lord and his Son were but my old Lord said nothing to me of it nor his Son neither Within a few days my old Lord Aston's Gentleman came down to my House one Mr. Ashley said I I wonder whether my Lord Aston hath acquainted his Son with what I told him says he he hath but it signifies nothing for he will hear nothing against Mr. Dugdale This I speak upon my Oath 't is true L. H. Steward Your Lordship sees what this Gentlemans Opinion was of Dugdale then he would hear nothing against him Will your Lordship conclude L. Stafford My Lords I am mighty unready and know not which way to turn my self upon those new things they have brought for I knew nothing of it nor expected any such thing But will you be pleased that I may call Simon Wright again VVho stood up L. H. Stew. What would your Lordship have with him L. Stafford I have nothing to say to him but to desire him to seé this Letter whether it be of his own Writing or no. L. H. Stew. Look upon that Paper shew it him which was done L. H. Stew Is it your hand Wright This is my hand 'T is part of that I was hired to do There is another of a great deal more consequence than that L. H. Stew. Deliver it in and read it Clerk June the 14. 1680. Sir I Can I bless God with a safe Conscience declare upon Oath that Mr. Dugdale hath been unkind to me in taking his opportunity of my Poverty by reason of a private meeting of us two by his appointment he did that time proffer if I would swear against You and Mr. Gerard he would protect me as one of the King's Evidence and I should not want Money and in the Hall at Westminster he said if I did discover it that day at Mrs. Price's Tryal he would set me in the Pillory This I have owned to his face and shall not go back from this and more neither for fear nor favour So I rest as you shall find by your Servant Sim. Wright L. H. Steward Is this your hand VVright Yes my Lords this I was advised word for word to write L. H. Stew. Who pen'd this for you Did you pen it your self VVright No my Lords they penn'd it and a great while I would not set my hand to it but Jermin Drayton said I need not fear I was not to swear against the King L. H. Steward Who is that VVright He is Butler to Mr. Heveningham L. Stafford See what you have under his hand I have no more to say to him VVright But by their perswasion at last I did wright it and a great deal more then that Sir William Jones I desire to ask Mr. VVright whether they would have had him swore this L. H. Stew. Were you desired to swear this VVright No my Lords they never put me to swear it for they told me I was not to swear against the King but if I would be so kind to make an Affidavit before a Justice of Peace I might then go where I would into the Country and I should have money to bear my charges Sir VVilliam Jones Who would have had you swear it before a Justice of Peace Wright Jermin Drayton and Mr. Longmore where he is I can't tell but he told me that Sir James Symons was better able to perform than Dugdale was to promise Mr. Serj. Maynard The same thing that was done by Redding he was convicted for it and stood in the Pillory Sir Will. Jones We desire to know whether he was ever with Sir James Symons himself and what he offered Wright I was once with him at the Kings Bench I dined there after I had written the Paper that was read he gave me 20 s. and said he hoped I would not go off from what I had said and he hoped I was sensible his gratuity would not be wanting and was sorry he had not occasion to use me Sir Will. Jones My Lords we have done with him I only observe that my Lord Stafford was pleased to produce this Paper he was Master of it and had it in his keeping Sir Fran. VVinnington Wright says there is another Paper of more Consequence I wish his Lordship would produce that also L. Stafford I did not know of this till just now it was delivered into my hands Did you see Mr. Longmore before this Letter was writ VVright Both before and after to the best of my remembrance and at the time when Sir James's Tryal should have been at the Sign of the Crown in Kings-street in Bloomsbury L. H. Steward My Lord will you conclude L. Stafford My Lords I desire your Lordships Pardon I do not know how really to go about it to night I will obey your Commands though I fall down at the Bar. I protest before God I was all night so ill of the Cramp that I had no repose If you will have me go on I will if you will give me but a little time to recollect my self L. H. Steward God forbid when your Lordship is to speak upon so great a Concern and a matter of that importance as this is to you you should be put at the end of the day and in the midst of all your thoughts to sum up your Evidence I do believe if you do desire time till to Morrow my Lords will give it you And if you would have me move my Lords in it I will L. Stafford One word I beseech your Lordships Sir VVilliam Jones We do not oppose it L. Stafford My Lords I desire one thing I am very ignorant in this matter and do not understand it I would desire your Lordships directons to know in what method I must proceed L. H. Stew. Your Lordship is to proceed thus if you please Your Lordship is to recollect and recapitulate all the Proofs you have made and you are to enforce them as well as you can and make such Observations upon them as are for your own advantage and this your Lordship must do for the Fact If there remain a doubt in Law which you may have occasion to move Counsel may be demanded and if it be considerable and worthy of debate you may have Counsel heard to speak to it But the Process is closed no more Witnesses are to be heard There remains only Observations upon the Fact or Law to be made L. Stafford Are no more Witnesses to be heard L. H. Steward No I think not 't is agreed on both sides
and names of his Witnesses we shall not oppose their being heard Sir Fr. Winn. If your Lordships please one word further We know well of what Concern this is to my Lord and no body desires to have him crampt in his Evidence The Objection did lie fair on our side it looking like a designed delay and yet we are willing to comply with this Reservation that if there should be any such Witnesses produced now as may require an Answer that we may not be foreclosed of advising with one another about it L. H. Stew. No by no means My Lord Stafford your desire is consented unto upon these Terms That your Lordship will now name the persons and number of the Witnesses you will call Mr. Hambden And the Points to which you will call them L. Stafford I humbly thank your Lordships for the favour but it is an impossibility for me to do it If your Lordships will give me a quarter of an hours time I will name them I cannot name some of them one is my Lord Ferrers another is one Dr. Taylor Dr. Watson Dr. Elliot and one William Dale L. H. Stew. Now to what Points will your Lordship call these Witnesses L. Stafford My Lord Ferrers is to speak his knowledge of Southall the Coroner and that is as to Dugdale my Lord knows that person Dr. VVatson and they are to invalidate the Testimony of Dr. Oats and there is another mans Name I forget what it is Sir Will. Jones To what Point is he to be a Witness L. Stafford 'T is to Dr. Oats and the Evidence against me Mr. Serj. Maynard So there will be pretences made every moment of some new Witness to put off this Cause Lord Stafford Under your Lordships favour I scorn to make any delay If you think this may not be material or not fit to be done I will quit it L. H. Stew. Go on my Lord. L. Stafford Will your Lordships be pleased to begin with my Lord Ferrer s who stood up in his place L. H. Stew. My Lord Ferrers your Lordship is called upon by my Lord Stafford and you being a Witness for the Prisoner and against the King your Lordship is not to be sworn Lord Ferrers My Lords what I have to say concerning that person my Lord named Southall is only upon Hear-say and upon the Reputation he hath in the Countrey for I have no acquaintance with him nor do know him at all But the Reputation that hath been given me of him in the Countrey is That he hath been a very active man in the late times against the King and is counted to be a very pernicious man against the Government Lord Stafford Call Dr. Taylor Servant I know not where he is he can't be found at present L. Stafford Then call VVilliam Dale in the mean time My Lords This same Southall I never heard of the other man that drew up the Affidavit that is Feake I know he was named by Southall to joyn with him in the Examination I can tell what he was I can prove that he is an Attorney that he was Mayor of Stafford and proclaimed the King Traytor L. H. Steward Who was that Lord Stafford One that drew up the Affidavit of Dugdale Feake mentioned by Southall L. H. Steward Who is your next Witness my Lord L. Stafford One VVilliam Dale who being called appeared L. H. Steward What is your Name VVitness VVilliam Dale L. H. Stew. What do you say L. Stafford About Dugdale my Lords what he knows about his offering him any money Sir VVill. Jones We desire to know where he lives Dale Dugdale never offered me any money L. H. Stew. Where do you live Dale At Owseley-bridge L. Stafford Pray ask him whether Dugdale persuaded him to swear against my Lord Aston something he knew not L. H. Stew. Did Dugdale ever hire you to swear against my Lord Aston Dale No he never hâ—red me L. H. Stew. Do you know that he ever hired any body else to swear false Dale I do not my Lords L. Stafford My Lords I most humbly thank your Lordships for your favour in giving me the liberty of examining these other Witnesses I shall trouble you no further nor give no more Evidence only one Witness my Lords I shall trouble you no further and that is Mr. Lieutenant of the Tower to this point whether my Lord Aston did refuse to come to accompt with Dugdale L. H. Steward Come Mr. Lieutenant do you know any thing about Accompts between my Lord Aston and Mr. Dugdale Mr. Lieutenant My Lords last Summer was 12 month Dugdale came to the Tower but my Lord Aston would not speak with him unless I were by so they brought him to my Lodging and he shewed me the Books of Accompts Itold them I did not understand Accompts but if they would have me be by I would get some body to be present that did and have them adjusted Mr. Dugdale said he whould come another time but from that time to this I never heard of him L. Stafford My Lords I shall not trouble you with any more Witnesses My Lords I have now done my Evidence I shall as well as my weak memory and old Age will give me leave sum it up something as well as I can of the Evidence given against me and for me Truly my Lords I am able to do it very imperfectly for want of understanding and truly for want of sleep but I do not doubt but that according to the Law as I am informed it is since I can have no Counsel in matter of Fact or to advise me in any thing of that nature yet I am also informed by the Law your Lordships who are my Judges are my Counsel And I do not doubt but your Lordships when you take it into consideration will supply any defects which I shall commit which I believe will be many I shall spend your Lordships time as little as I can though these Gentlemen of the House of Commons believe I desire to protract it yet I profess before God I do not And I declare before them all and your Lordships I am so satisfied of my own Innocency that I would never beg a moments time of delay and I know your Lordships will take care of the Life of the meanest Subject and though I have had the honour to sit among your Lordships as a Peer yet I ask not for your favour but with your justice too I shall therefore sum up my defence as well as I can For the first Witness Dugdale he swore I was at a Consult at Tixal in the end of August or the beginning of September I have sufficiently proved that in all August I was not there nor till the 12. of September I have proved that his first Oath was I was there in August and a man that will swear false in one thing is not to be credited in any I have made it appear to your Lordships that upon the 20. of
which he forswears to morrow is not to be believed And the truth of it is as his Brothers prove to your Lordships he came to my Lord Powis's in the year 71 and so he forswears himself in every thing and is in no wise to be believed He swears to your Lordships I writ a Letter to him to acquaint him that I would go by Calice and not by Diep but I have proved I went by Diep and I assure your Lordships I have not been at Calice I think these twelve or fourteen years I conceive these things are very manifest and clear proofs against him that he hath not swore one true word He swears that my Lord Powis my Lady Powis and his friends perswaded him to go to Doway to to be a Frier but not liking it he came over again and was in danger of his life by them but the Evidence is sufficiently strong in proof that he afterwards was at my Lord Powis's and was well received that he lay in the House and was not in the least injured by them And for his other Relations his Brother proves he was not ill used by them They gave him Seven Pound to be gone and trouble them no more He says I said he was a Coward and I 'le tell you why I said so because a Captain that is now out of England told his Sister so who told me But that is not very material My Lords there is one Witness more John Porter that swears to your Lordships this one thing That this Turbervill swore to him at such an Alehouse he knew nothing of the Plot. And then my Lords there is Mr. Yalden and he is a Gentleman of Reputation he said in his company there was no Trade good but that of a Discoverer God damn the Duke of York Monmouth Plot and all for I know nothing of it Truly my Lords whether he got no money by it or is known since he hath been a Discoverer telling what he knew not so many Months ago and therefore I submit it to your Lordships what he is My Lords these people that swear against me there is not one of them a person of any Quality or Condition and whether they have not rather sworn for money than the truth by things that are known and need no proof I shall observe when I come to it to argue that point in Law Whether a man that swears for gain is a credible Witness or no My Lords I have as well as I can summed up that little Evidence that was given against me I cannot better do it in so short a time for indeed I had but a very short time last night and I have not slept I had the Cramp so much in extremity that my next Neighbour heard me roaring out My Lords I submit my self to your Lordships and doubt not but that the matters charged upon me will appear to your Lordships sufficiently answered And I beseech your Lordships well to consider that one thing against Dr. Oats his dissembling with God Almighty and his impudent owning of it This I do insist upon and I protest before God Almighty if I were a Judge I would not hang a Dog upon such Evidence My Lords I have many points in Law to offer to your Lordships and when you please I should do it I 'le name them to you L. H. Steward Name them my Lord if you have any Doubts in Law propound them Lord Lovelace My Lords I would not interrupt my Lord but I think indeed it is no interruption since his Lordship broke off and was going on to another point But I think I see one of the impudentest things that ever was done in a Court of Justice Whilest we are Trying a Person here for a Popish Plot I do see a prosessed Papist standing in the Body of your House and that is Sir Barnard Gascoyne Who thereupon went out of the Court. L. Stafford My Lords I do conceive I have cleared my self to your ' Lordships of what I am accused of My Lords The Course of my whole Life hath been otherwise I defie any Creature in the World to say That I ever used one disobedient or disloyal word of the King or did any such Act. I waited on the King that now is in the Unhappy War that is passed when I was in a low condition enough as to Fortune and my Wife and Family were thereby reduced to great Streights for my Wife and Children lived some five or six years upon some Plate and Jewels that we had whereas if I would have come and been at London and joined with that party I could have saved my Estate and lived quietly as others did But my Conscience told me I ought to wait upon the King and offer him my personal Service when I could do him no other I have shewn how the Witnesses have forsworn themselves I shall now if your Lordships please desire your Opinion in some points of Law And though perhaps I may name to your Lordships many things that are impertinent or not to the purpose I beg your Lordships pardon 't is out of the weakness of my Understanding and I hope you will not think ill neither your Lordships nor the House of Commons if I should through Ignorance move things impertinent The first Point of Law is this First I conceive there is no Example or President for it That Proceedings Criminal ever did continue from Parliament to Parliament and this is continued to three L. H. Steward Speak out my Lord and go on L. Stafford Secondly my Lords I do not question the power of the House of Commons in the least but my Lords I know they Impeach when they find Grounds for it without dispute but I question whether any man by the known Laws of this Kingdom in Capital Cases can be proceeded on but by Indictment first found by the Grand Jury and not by Impeachment by any Person or other body of Men. L. H. Steward Say on my Lord. L. Stafford Thirdly my Lords I conceive there are many defects in the Indictment or the Impeachment Indictment there is none There is no Overt Act alledged in the Indictment or Impeachment I know not well what it is called And my Lords by the Act of Parliament in 1 H. 4. c. 10. nothing from thenceforth is to be Treason but according to the Statute of 25 Edw. 3. which includes an Overt Act. Fourthly my Lords I desire that I may prove that by Law they are not competent Witnesses for they swear for money But my Lords I forgot one thing to say to Your Lordships as to the Evidence that these Gentlemen did endeavour to prove I do not speak whether they did or not a general Plot of the Papists whether they did not I am not concerned in it for I say they have not proved me a Papist which I submit to Your Lordships and though any man may know me so in his private knowledge yet they having not given any
proof of it 't is not to affect me Fifthly There is is one Point of Law more That no man can be condemned for Treason as I conceive by one Witness and there are not two Witnesses to any Point These are the Points of Law I humbly beg your Lordships pardon for the trouble and desire your Opinion in them Sir William Jones My Lords Before we make answer to what my Lord hath said I do humbly desire That for the Objection which he hath made against Mr. Southall proved by a Noble Lord of this House though I must observe it was not of his own knowledge but by Hear-say and that matter of Hear-say contrary to the Act of Oblivion to the end there may no doubt remain of Mr. Southall's Credit that a Noble Lord of this House and a Gentleman of the House of Commons who both know Mr. Southall may be heard to his Reputation Sir Fran. Winn. My Lord Ferrers knew him not himself but my Lord Brook and Mr. Gower will give a better account of him Then the Lord Brook was sworn Lord Brook My Lords What I have to say concerning this Mr. Southall is That he hath been often employed both by my Brother and my Mother and they have so good an Opinion of him that they employ him still and therefore we take him for an honest man and an able man or he would not be so much trusted and employed and I take him to be a very good Churchman for if he was not I would not employ him L. H. Steward An honest man an able and a good Churchman your Lordship says Lord Brook He receives the Sacrament four times a year Sir Will. Jones Then swear Mr. VVilliam Leveson Gower a Member of the House of Commons which was done in his place Mr. L. Gower My Lords I have been near 7 years of Staffordshire but did not know Mr. Southall till this Popish Plot was discovered After that I came acquainted with him being a Justice of the Peace in that County in Court where I found him to be the most zealous Prosecutor of the Papists in that Country no man like him I likewise found several Popish Priests had by his means been apprehended and imprisoned and one of them since convicted who by the way still remains unexecuted in Stafford Goal What Opinion some may have heard or had of him formerly I cannot tell but this I know that he hath more than once come to desire my Assistance that he might prosecute the Papists the most effectual way upon the Statutes made for that purpose and that he did complain to me that he had not met with good usage elsewhere My Lords I take Opinion to be grounded upon Principles and I do observe that those of this Country who do believe this Popish Plot and know Mr. Southall and are principl'd for the Preservation of the King the Protestant Religion and the Government do at this time speak well of him and those who are not so principl'd speak otherwise My Lords I was surpris'd when I heard my Name mention'd upon this occasion I have told your Lordships all the matter of Fact that upon the suddain occurs to me with my own Opinion which I offer with all submission and had I had notice I might possibly have recollected more which I would freely have declared to your Lordships but this is all that I can now say L. Stafford My Lords if your Lordships please I would say one word if you will give me leave I am very ignorant and beg your Lordships pardon for troubling of you I humbly desire to know whether after the Points of Law are argued I may speak something not concerning the Evidence of the Plot but concerning my self Sir Will. Jones My Lords we shall not oppose the saying any thing he can for himself but we must conclude and have the last word L. H. Steward My Lord the Gentlemen that are for the House of Commons must conclude My Lords will give you all the favour they can but they must have the last word L. Stafford I do not oppose it L. H. Steward Therefore you will do well to say all you have to say together For the Points of Law my Lords will give no Judgement till the Commons have answered them and they I suppose will first sum up the whole Proofs then you may say what you have to say for they must make an end Gentlemen will you speak first to the Law Sir Will. Jones No my Lords first to the Fact L. H. Steward Go on then Then Sir William Jones One of the Committee appointed to manage the Evidence began to sum up the same as followeth MAy it please your Lordships We have now done our Evidence as to matter of Fact and that which I have in Charge at this time is to remind your Lordships of our Proofs to answer the Objections that have been made against them and to make some Observations upon the whole My Lords The Members of the House of Commons that were appointed for the Service of the Management of this Tryal those of them I mean who began the first day made a Division of our Evidence into two parts the one that which concerned the Plot in general and the other what related to this Lord in particular My Lords as to the Plot in general we did call six Witnesses I know some of your Lordships have taken Notes and you have their Names they were Smith Dugdale Prance Oats Denis and Jenison My Lords because I will save as much of your time as I can I will not take upon me to repeat what each Witness said as to the Plot in general but when I come to the Evidence which immediately concerns my Lord I must beg your favour that I may be more particular I will say thus much for the Proofs of the Plot in general That there was by those Witnesses so much fully proved that made it most apparent That there was a general Design amongst the Roman Catholicks to introduce their false Religion into this Kingdom That the Jesuits had several Meetings to that end That they endeavoured to do it by several ways by raising of Armes by collecting of Monies and by designing against the Kings Life nay they had so far advanced their Designs and were in so much readiness as they thought it time to appoint Officers not only for their Army but for the Civil Government as if the Work were already accomplished Your Lordships were told by one of the Witnesses of a Lord Chancellor and of a Lord Treasurer Lords now in the Tower yet to be tried and you were told also of Officers for the Military part a General a Lieutenant-General and this Lord at the Bar to be Pay-Master of the Army I shall my Lords desire to take notice to your Lordships That this Design though it was to be finally acted by other Hands yet was it first contrived and afterwards carried on by the Priests and
his hearing complain That the King had deceived them a great while and that they would bear with him no longer he should deceive them no more My Lords Our third Witness was Mr. Turbervill who doth give you an account that he being first sent to Doway and intended to be entred there in one of the Societies he was sent by my Lord Powis and my Lady Powis and some of his Relations of that Religion for that purpose he did not like the Company he was not pleased with the Exercises of that Religion and that with much difficulty he escaped thence and came for England But finding he was not well look'd upon here nor well received by his Relations he went over to France That being at Paris he came into the company of the three Fathers I named before Father Sherborn Father Nelson and Father Turbervill the last whereof he tells you was his own Brother That by the means of these Priests he was brought acquainted with my Lord Stafford and doubtless they were able to make him intimately acquainted with my Lord. And it did prove so for he tells you after some time that in a lower Room of my Lords Lodging my Lord proposed to him the business of killing the King That he did not at all like it was very unwilling to undertake it but my Lord bid him consider of it and that he should give him his Answer at Diep having enjoyned him secrecy but my Lord after sent him word he would go by Calice and the Witness afterwards went into England and from thence into the French Army And this is the substance of what Turbervill deposeth And my Lords I think it will not be doubted by any man that will consider these three mens Testimonies but that here are two Witnesses if not more to prove my Lord Guilty of Treason But my Lord has been pleased against them to make several Objections some have been by Witnesses which he hath produced to incounter the Proofs that we have offered and some of them have been by Observations that he hath made upon what hath been said by our Witnesses and his I will keep to Order as much as I can not confound the Order and Method of his Defence The Witnesses he first brought were against Dugdale and of them his Lordship was pleased to begin with his Daughter the Lady Marchioness of Winchester and his Niece Mrs. Howard Your Lordships I presume are pleased to observe what they were called to They did testifie that being at Wakeman's Tryal they did hear Dugdale swear says my Lady Marchioness of Winchester that my Lord Stafford was to come down into Staffordshire in June or July and Mr. Dugdale was then to receive Orders from my Lord and he swore as she was pleased to say that there was a Consult in August at Tixall and my Lord Stafford was there present Mrs. Howard for I put them together was pleased to say that she was present at that Tryal and there Dugdale swore my Lord Stafford did come down in June or July and that my Lord was at the Consult in August My Lords I will not make Objections neither to the Religion of these Ladies nor to the Relation to my Lord though those be matters that are to be considered But that which I shall observe to your Lordships is this That they do not agree one with another For my Lady Winchester says Dugdale did swear that my Lord was to come down in June or July and Mrs. Howard says that he swore he did come down then Now there is a great difference betwixt swearing an intention that a man was to come down and swearing the very Act that he did come down at that time By which your Lordships may observe how hard a matter it is for Witnesses that are present at a Tryal especially at a Tryal which did not directly though it might in consequence concern another Person of their Relation to take notice exactly of things And truly my Lords these Ladies being of that Religion might have so much concern upon them for Sir George Wakeman the Popish Physician and in him for other their friends of that party that they might not have so much liberty of thought as to observe exactly all circumstances sworn to by the Witnesses and therefore it is no great matter if they are mistaken in them But I believe if any one do consult the Print though it be no Evidence nor offer'd as such he will find no such thing was at that time sworn for it is not so printed and those that took notes did not understand it so My Lords The next Witness my Lord is pleased to bring is his Servant Furnese and what is it that he testifieth He saith that he was with my Lord the whole time that Dugdale was in my Lords Chamber and he doth not remember that ever Dugdale was there but once and he doth not remember that ever my Lord bid him go out of the Room My Lords it is a very hard matter for a man to come thus in the Negative to remember how often Dugdale was there especially there being no more occasion to take notice of it then than here appears to be and that after so long a time And it is a very hard matter for a Servant to gain Credit by saying his Master never bid him go out of the Room in his life These things may be done or said and yet escape the memory of a Servant of more Age and of less inclination to favour his Master then this person appears to be of and to have Therefore I think there will be but a very small matter made of what he said no force at all in it and I believe your Lordships will give very little regard to it but rather believe those Witnesses that swear positively that they have seen him with my Lord and speak to a familiarity at that time between them This young man Furnese was my Lords Servant and of his Religion and it is considerable whether we have not reason to be afraid that more than ordinary Practice has been used to prepare Evidence on my Lords behalf which I shall have occasion to speak to when I come to the other Witnesses His next Witness my Lords was his Boy George Leigh who is Fifteen years of Age now and was Eight years old when he came to my Lord Seven years ago And he attests the same thing and to the same purpose with the other And I think I may leave him with the same Answer for we are nothing more concerned with him than we were with the other Only one thing I would observe to shew that his Memory was imperfect he doth not remember that Dugdale was with my Lord at all that day which my Lord himself doth acknowledge he was and the other Witness agrees So that there cannot be any great weight laid upon what he saith My Lords next Witness was Thomas Sawyer and he is one of my
Oats as to the General Matters which he evidenceth of the Plot. What now doth my Lord object against Dr. Oats He call'd no Witnesses against him but only an Honourable Earl of this House I think I may name him the Earl of Berkely And that which his Lordship was pleased to testifie against him was Object That being examined at the House of Lords after he had given a long Evidence against many persons he was asked this Question whether there were any more Persons of Quality he could speak against or could accuse and he said no. Answ First your Lordships will be pleased to observe that this was after he had accused my Lord Stafford my Lord was secured in the Tower long before that upon Dr. Oats his Testimony and so he could not exclude this Lord. But that which it is brought for I suppose is to make him a person of no Credit For after he had said this he proceeded to an Accusation of the Queen My Lords I humbly conceive this may receive a very fair Answer For First my Lords I appeal to your Lordships Memories for I think the Matter was before you all or at leastwise before some of your Lordships that the Accusation which Dr. Oats made of the Queen was not positive nor of his own certain knowledge but Words which he heard spoken in a Room in which he was not himself but coming in afterwards he saw the Queen was there So it was not positive but circumstantial proof and questionable whether what he testified would amount to the proof of one Witness And I must observe in the second place it might not be so clear to Dr. Oats whether the Queen were a Person capable of an Accusation so as to be proceeded criminally against the King and the Queen are to some purposes but one Person in Law 'T is true some Queens have been tryed for Treason but whether Dr. Oats understood that She might be brought to a Tryal may be a Question But that which I rely upon as an Answer and which I desire may be considered is that Dr. Oats had given an Accompt of a great many persons and a great many things he had sworn against several persons some of which were executed some to be tryed and his Narrative against them and of the whole Plot consisted of a great number of particulars Here is a Question comes to the Doctor on a sudden Have you any more to say or can you speak against any other 'T is possible a man that had said so much and of so many might not upon an instant recollect whether he had said all or against all that he could say Nay ' tit easily to be imagined he could not on a sudden comprehend all he had said or could say Therefore that the Answer of a man to such a Question put suddenly to him having so much in his mind and having said so much should be taken so very strictly and to hold him as perjured because he did not at that instant time remember this particular of the Queen I think is a severe Construction His Lordship is pleased further to object against Dr. Oats that he is of no Credit why Because he went to be of the Romish Religion and so was of that Religion which is Idolatry I suppose his Lordship will not call that Religion Idolatry at another time and in another place but it serves his Lordship upon this particular Occasion to call it so but suppose Doctor Oats did out of Levity or for want of being well grounded in his own turn to another Religion he is not the first man that hath done so There have been Men of great Fame in our Church and of great Learning too that have changed their Religion more than once I think he that knew that Famous Man Mr. Chillingworth could not but know he was first a Protestant and afterwards a Papist and afterwards a Protestant again So that unless my Lord could accuse the Doctor of some great Crime or Immorality it will be hard that the matter of changing his Religion should hurt his Testimony I am sure it was happy for us he did change without that we had not had the first knowledge of the Plot nor of many particulars which he could not come to know but by occasion of that Change My Lord was pleased to object that the Doctor was a man subject to Passion and he brought in the Lieutenant of the Tower to speak of some hot Words that passed between them My Lords I will allow the Doctor to be a Man of Passion Nay if my Lord please a Man that is not of the deepest reach but your Lordships will observe that Passionate Men are not often malicious and that a Man who is not of a deep Judgment could never have contrived and invented a Narrative consisting of so many particulars and they so coherent if they were false And if his Narrative be not true he must be indued with more Subtilty and wicked Policy than upon Tryal we can find in him So that what my Lord hath objected as to his Infirmities is no diminution to the truth of what he says but rather a Confirmation of it My Lords The last Witness whom my Lord endeavoured to impeach is Mr. Turbervill and against him my Lord thinks he hath a great advantage But my Lords by that time I have re-minded your Lordships of what hath been already said and what was before proved in Answer to my Lord's Objections against him Mr. Turbervill will stand as clear in this Court as any of the former Witnesses Your Lordships will be pleased to take Notice That Mr. Turbervill was at the beginning when he came to the House of Commons a little uncertain as to matter of Time For when he had made in his Affidavit the times to be 73 and 76 he craved leave to alter it to 72 and 75. Surely my Lords this will be far from being any Imputation to Mr. Turbervill because First he gives the Reason how he came afterwards to understand the Time bettter by viewing his Papers and Letters he likewise gives you an Account and so did Sir William Poultney when he did this the next Morning before any Man in the World had questioned him upon it So that it shews the Man's Care and Conscience both when he is so careful even in matters of the smallest Moment to set things right There is no Man that knows the Practice of the Court of Chancery but knows that for a Man to mend his Answer after it is sworn in a point of Time or other Circumstance is no disparagement to him Nay to do it before the other Party did except or take notice of it is no Objection but rather a Reputation to him And your Lordships will be pleased to take notice that one of the times rectified is of 7 or 8 years the other of 4 years standing And I do not think the worse of a Witness that is not positive
in a time when that time is so far elapsed The next matter is That this man was never with my Lord how was that proved for 't is a Negative Why my Lord is pleased to call his own Servants Furnese and the Boy Leigh and what say they they never saw any such man My Lords I desire your Lordships to observe That Mr. Turbervill was introduced by greater Confidents than either of these Servants Mr. Turbervill came in the company of the Priests and you hear the Boy deny that he knew Anthony Turbervill but not that he knew Father Turbervill nor doth my Lord himself deny it nor doth either Master or Man deny my Lords correspondency with the other two Fathers And it might be very easie for Mr. Turbervill to come in the company of the Priests and the Boy not take particular notice of him And 't is as little an Objection what my Lord says that Turbervill himself said he did not know the Boy how many are there that come to the Houses of another and unless they Lodge there or dine there often do not remember the Servants of the House And 't is no greater an Objection to say the Servants did not know him The Priests they knew him they were his Guides they were the likeliest to gain him Admittance not only into my Lord's House but into my Lord's Heart My Lords Your Lordships will be pleased likewise to observe They have also gone about in very little matters to disprove Mr. Turbervill as that whereas he says he was not well used by my Lord Powis and his Lady when he returned from Doway that he was very well used and as one Witness I think Minhead says he was permitted to lie in a Room near my Lord's Chamber My Lords Mr. Turbervill does not pretend to say that my Lord Powis shut him out of doors but what Reproaches or unkind Words might pass between them in private Minhead might not hear So that to say that he lay in my Lord's House is no Answer to this Matter And for the other Witness his Brother that speaks of his Kindreds being kind to him that under favour does not at all disprove him for what was the kindness His Brother and Sister were so kind as to give him Seven Pounds never to see him more a great matter when a younger Brother lies upon a Family that the trouble of his stay there is redeemed at the price of Seven Pound This was a very great kindness a kindness indeed that one would scarce deny to a Stranger if in Poverty I mention the least matters I can remember because I would have nothing stick with your Lordships Then Secretary Lydcott the Fellow of Kings Colledge was called again but indeed my Lords he was so out in his Arithmetick so mistaken in the Year and used the New Stile the Romish so much more than ours that it makes me suspect he is not so great a Protestant as he pretends to be He promised us his Book which he was not then prepared to produce but because we do not hear of him nor of his Book since we say no more of him My Lords John Porter my Lord Powis's Butler comes next and what does he tell your Lordships Why that Mr. Turbervill came not to Powis's House it seems he did not appear there but that he came to a Victualling House hard by and he telling Turbervill he must know something of the Plot he denied that he knew any thing To the same purpose or rather to less and more improbably does Yalden the Gentleman of Grays Inn as he calls himself testifie who says that walking in Grays Inn Walks he had discourse with Turbervill and that he then swore there was no Trade good now but that of a Discoverer and damned himself because he could make no Discovery Truly my Lords this looks in it self to be something prepared for the purpose It is not probable that a Man that should use those horrid Oaths and should have such a mind to be a Discoverer should disable himself ever to be so by swearing he knew nothing But I will not only answer that matter with saying 't is improbable but I shall desire Your Lordships to remember that Mr. Powel a Gentleman of the same House and of good Reputation does swear that Turbervill did acquaint him that he could discover a considerable matter and this was above a year since And Mr. Arnold a Member of the House of Commons does confirm it that he did several times acquaint him that he could make an important Discovery and gave him several reasons why he thought not fit to do at that time because of the Dangers which might arise from some Great Men and therefore till he had a more convenient Opportunity he would not discover But as soon as the Parliament sate very early he did begin to discover So that I shall oppose the Testimony of Mr. Powel and Mr. Arnold to the Testimony of my Lord Powis's Butler and Mr. Yalden the latter of whom speaks so improbably and of a Discourse half a year ago whereas Mr. Powel speaks of what Mr. Turbervill said above a year since and Mr. Arnold of a longer time My Lords It hath been sometimes objected that Mr. Turbervill was a Stranger to my Lord and it was too great a Trust to commit to a Stranger too great a Secret for a Stranger to be acquainted with My Lord's design of the King's Death was too great a matter to lodge with one with whom my Lord had no more Acquaintance than he had with Turbervill Your Lordships will be pleased to observe who they were that did introduce him and who probably gave the best Character of him they were the three Priests and I do not wonder when these Priests had brought my Lord up to such a purpose that they should prevail with his Lordship to give Credit to and deal with a Man that was not very unlike in his Circumstances to attempt such a business For your Lordships will observe he was a man that was very stout for against my Lord's reflection upon him as to Cowardise in deserting the Army Mr. Turbervill hath produced the Certificate of his dismission which gives him a very good Character Besides he was a man indigent and therefore I think there could not be a fitter man chosen for the purpose if he had been so void of all Grace as to undertake it And that Priests having gotten a man so qualified as they thought him were not likely to let slip such an opportunity But My Lords to come to that which is the sum of the business and which my Lord lays more weight on than all the rest and that is the Affidavit which Mr. Turbervill swore before the Justices of the Peace which was in effect what he informed the House of Commons and in that Affidavit besides his alteration of Times which I have spoken to already it is objected that he does say that which
is manifestly untrue For he says my Lord came by the way of Calice with Count Gramont neither of which my Lord did do My Lords I will not mention the Master of the Yacht nor the Witnesses from the Admiralty which make out that my Lord came from Diep and not from Calice Nor do I deny that my Lord came by himself and not with Count Gramont and therefore 't is most certainly true that what Turbervill swore as to those two particulars was not true Yet if your Lordships please to observe the Circumstances tho' what he swore herein was not true it will appear a very innocent mistake For in Turbervill's Affidavit he tells your Lordships that he came away without my Lord to Diep and came from Diep to England before my Lord Stafford left Paris Mr. Turbervill tells you afterwards my Lord came from Calice with Count Gramont Mr. Turbervill could not possibly be thought to speak this of his own knowledge because he does in the same Affidavit tell you too that he came away before my Lord and had not his passage with him So that my Lords I desire you would observe it could be no design of his to affirm this of his own knowledge For if it were he took a very ill course to disclose in the same Affidavit that he was absent and so could not speak of his own knowledge And my Lords suppose a man did swear such a man and he were in such company and that he came home and left the man there and that afterwards the man said such and such things in that company what should I say of this Oath I might well say the words of his Oath were not proper or that he was unweary in expressing himself but I could not say nor would any man justly be able to say he had a design to make the World believe he heard him say so because he swears in the same breath he came away before the Words were spoken If Mr. Turbervill had understood how strict and nice a man ought to be in expressing himself in an Affidavit he would have said as he had been told my Lord â—ame by Calice and that Count Gramont came with him as he understood 'T is true he hath not put in those words but I beseech you when the matter it self will bear it nay when 't is most apparent that Mr. Turbervill could have no other meaning than to relate what he was informed by others and what he could not know himself what corruption what obliquity can there be in this Oath All that can be said is it was not cautiously worded but it does certainly disclose so much in it self that every one that hears it must say That he did not take upon himself to swear it as of his own knowledge because he tells you he was not there so that it was rather want of knowledge how to express himself properly than any corruption in his Oath or forswearing himself But says my Lord how should he come to know this Why Mr. Turbervill said he had a Letter whereby he knew my Lord would come by the way of Calice but where is that Letter Is it necessary to keep or does any man almost keep Letters of no greater concernment than this that my Lord writ him word how he would go by the way of Calice and this after five years and after he was in the Wars and where I have heard he was taken Prisoner To be sure he was much tumbled up and down from place to place And under all these Circumstances might not such a Letter be lost But my Lords I beseech you are there not some Proofs that look much this way made out by another Witness Does not Mr. Mort tell you something of this Nature First he agrees as to the matter of an English Lord lying about such a Street in Paris he tells you he was with Mr. Turbervill and that he himself walked about Laxenburgh House whilst Mr. Turbervill went to speak with that English Lord he does say he believes his Name was my Lord Stafford but he is not positive and the times which he speaks of do agree with what Mr. Turbervill deposeth And there is one thing which tho' I should not mention upon any other occasion because it was but a foolish Joke yet I shall crave leave to speak of it now He tells you That one day while they were at Diep in expectation of my Lords coming and hearing that he went another way they had this piece of minute Wit upon it Cursed is he that relies upon a broken Staff whereby he thinks was meant the Name of Stafford So then â— beseech you if Mort say true are not here footsteps and a foundation whereon to ground a belief That there was a Correspondence between Turbervill and my Lord and that Mr. Turbervill had an Information that my Lord would come by the way of Calice And one thing more Mort says that Turbervill told him if he would make haste to Calice he might go over with my Lord. And here I would observe how should Mr. Turbervill come to know that my Lord went that way and how should he tell Mort that he might go over with my Lord from Calice unless he had receiv'd some such Information Therefore my Lords taking into Consideration what is confirmed by Mort and taking into Consideration the whole scope of the Affidavit I cannot see that there can be any material Objection against Mr. Turbervill for saying That my Lord came by Calice in the Company of Count Gramont My Lords I have done now with the Witnesses and I told you as I went along because I would not trouble you with a double Repetition what Evidence we have given in contradiction to those Witnesses which my Lord hath brought in order to defame our Witnesses But my Lords I am to acquaint you That besides these particular Answers your Lordships have had men of very great Credit brought to testifie the Reputation of Mr. Dugdale and Mr. Turbervill As to Mr. Dugdale we have brought men that have known him a great while one hath sworn what Opinion even my Lord Aston himself had of him for it seems he lived with so much Credit there that he would not believe any ill of him You have heard from other Witnesses how he did behave himself It was objected sometimes Tradesmen were not paid but what then can a man pay without Money I believe there are some Lords here whose Stewards are very honest men and yet the Tradesmen such Lords deal with are not always readily paid He was as you observe believed to be in the Plot and my Lord's Servants say he seemed much troubled about it he went away upon that Account and was so much concerned that he burnt his Papers which I make use of for two Purposes The one to shew that he did apprehend he was in great danger the other to shew what was the Reason why the
of those Letters shew me the Letter you carried to the Post-house My Lords were those Letters written to Dr. Oats Did they belong to him Or is it possible that my Lords Letter delivered by the Doctor to the Post-house should now be shewn by the Doctor or that the Letters writ to the Superior of the Society of the Jesuits should be produced by one that was a Novice of that Society Does Dr. Oats talk of any one Letter written to himself You will then I suppose see no reason to expect those Letters should be produced by him that were not written to him and the custody whereof belonged to others My Lords I must observe to You that there have been great Endeavours used to Invalidate our Testimony we have had Witnesses called against Witnesses and my Lord hath had that Advantage to do it which perhaps was never given in any Case before and which I hope will never be again The Evidence hath been Printed and Published to the World before it hath been given I say not that it was not necessary in this Case which was a National Cause and the Cause of our Religion but I do say it would not be fit to be done in other Cases for the notifying of the Evidence is the way to have it falsified and corrupted But notwithstanding all these Advantages my Lords I appeal to your Lordships Memories what considerable contradiction hath been given It is true some Witnesses to that end have been brought before your Lordships but those Witnesses have been rendred incredible by more credible persons and I would desire your Lordships to observe That tho' my Lord hath failed of proving any Subornation in our Witnesses yet we have proved much Subornation endeavoured by his Agents Your Lordships have the Record against Redding before you and what Reference that hath to the Lords in the Tower every one does remember and my Lord is mentioned in that Record And I might likewise mention the business of Cellier and what therein related to the Lords in the Tower and I 'le name but two Witnesses more that have been attempted upon this Nature There was Wright the Barber all the Applications were made to him that could be Money given Letters writ Insinuations that he was not to Swear he was but to Write and that was easily done or if he would be so kind to Swear it he should never come into open Court only go before a Justice of Peace So that your Lordships will observe by what steps and degrees men were endeavoured to be Suborned And then Launder tells you what was offered to him to perjure himself how he was brought to Tixall and what endeavours were used to make him Swear against our Witnesses These things are plain both by Records and particular Proofs upon Oath But my Lords lest we should want proof of all This very Lord I pity him for it hath been so unfortunate as to bring that Paper out of his Pocket which Wright says he had money to frame and was to Swear to It seems my Lord had the Command of it it seems to have been prepared for such a good time as This and the producing of this Paper is as full a Confirmation of this point as can in reason be expected My Lords I have been I fear too long already and yet I fear I have omitted as many particulars as I have mentioned My Lords The Evidence is so strong that I think it admits of no doubt and the Offences proved against my Lord and the rest of his Party are so foul that they need no aggravation The Offences are against the King against His Sacred Life against the Protestant Religion nay against all Protestants for it was for the Extirpation of all Protestants out of these Three Nations I mean not of every one that is now so but of every one that would have continued so every one amongst us if these Designs had been accomplished must either have turned his Religion or turned out of his Countrey or have been burned in it 'T is a Design that appears with so dreadful a Countenance to Your Lordships to this great Assembly and to the whole Nation that it needs not any words I can use to make you apprehend it If the matter be fully proved as I see no reason to doubt but that it is I am sure your Lordships will do that Justice to Your King and Countrey as to give Judgment against these Offenders which will not only be a Security to us against them but a Terror to all others against comitting the like Offences L. Stafford I beg of your Lordships to know whether you will give me leave to speak a word And my Lords I shall not speak any thing but as to a mistake Sir Will. Jones hath made in two or three things Pray my Lords may I put you in mind of them Sir William Jones If there be any mistake pray tell us what it is L. Stafford First My Lords he did omit telling you that Mr. Turbervill's Brother did say he came in 71 to my Lord Powis's Secondly He says I have proved my self a Papist because I have not taken the Test My Lords the Test was since I was in the Tower and whether I will take it or not I do not yet know till it be offered me The Third is this That this Letter was in my Pocket which I produced to you my Lords I knew nothing what was in it it was given into my hand as I stood here at the Bar. Fourthly He said Hobson did go out of England with the Almoner he did not so Another thing he says that I said Oats was an infamous person because he went to a Church that I said was Idolatrous I only said it was so adjudged by Act of Parliament I find my Lords these things he is mistaken in and that my Lords made me very willing to put You in mind of them L. H. Steward Gentlemen I would ask you whether you take any Notice of the Points in Law Sir Fran. Winn. After the Fact is stated my Lords we shall Then Mr. Powle also one of the Committee appointed to manage the Evidence proceeded further in Summing up of the same Mr. Powle My Lords the Learned Person that spake last hath left very little for me to say in the Summing of this Evidence But because this Noble Lord hath been pleased to alledge several Reasons from whence he would infer at least a great improbability that he should be guilty of the Treasons whereof he stands Accused I shall crave your Lordships patience that I may give Three or Four words in answer to those particulars My Lords In the first place this Noble Lord was pleased to begin and afterwards to continue his Defence with making protestations of his own Innocency We very well know your Lordships sit now in the Seat of Justice and whatsoever credit or regard your Lordships please to give to the Protestations of a Peer in
Then when Godfrey was murther'd how came that Discovery out but by the voluntary Confession of one engaged in the whole Plot I mean Bedloe So that though these men had engaged themselves by wicked Oaths yet their own Consciences witnessing against them in themselves they could not forbear coming in to testifie against themselves I shall say no more than that we ought to acknowledge the Hand of God in the Discovery with great Thankfulness for it is He and He alone that out of his own Grace and Goodness hath done it and thereby preserved the Life of our Prince to us and in Him us too But as to the Matter in Law My Lord has been pleased to mention first this That there is no Overt Act. I wonder that my Lord should be so much mistaken When it is charged in the Articles and proved to his Face he received a Commission Is not that an Overt Act He is charged in the Articles of Impeachment with Contriving the Death of the King and being at several Meetings and Consults about the King's Death and Hâ—â—ing Persons to Kill the King And are these no Overt Acts Therefore as to that my Lord is mistaken My Lords another Exception that is taken is That there is no Indictment I conceive that an Impeachment of the House of Commons is more than an Indictment And there cannot be any doubt of that the Impeachment of the House of Commons having always been received and proceeded on by your Lordships But that which is most insisted upon is That this Charge that is made against this Lord was presented in another Parliament It is true but under favour what is once upon Record in Parliament may at any time afterwards be proceeded upon It is a sudden Objection but I conceive it hath been done However in a Case of this Nature when the Life of the King when our own Lives and our Nation and our Religion lies at stake if there were not a Precedent I hope You would make a Precedent But under favour Reason is for it the Charge is before You the Proof is made and we pray You will judge according as the Evidence hath been Sir Will. Jones My Lords as to these Matters of Law I think they are of so little difficulty that my Lord will not desire to have Counsel assigned him I am sure his Counsel will not desire to speak to them For this last Matter which Mr. Serjeant spoke of and which was first named by the Prisoner I desire your Lordship to consider what it is Says my Lord the Prisoner there was an Impeachment begun in the Long Parliament and this is now the Third Parliament in which I am brought to my Tryal It is very true there was a General Impeachment in the Long Parliament the particular one was in the last and this Lord was pleased to plead in the last It may be he was not so well advised then as he is now But my Lords How can this be a doubt when your Lordships have resolv'd and have sent it down to the Commons and it is there entred in their Book as the Law and Constitution of Parliaments that not only Impeachments but all Judicial proceedings continue from Parliament to Parliament in the same state that they were in at the Rising of the last Parliament This is now become the Law of Your House and it is under favour being so the Law of the Kingdom and You having thus declared it and sent it to the Commons I hope the Commons had very good reason to proceed upon this Impeachment at this time The next matter is concerning the Overt Acts I think there are sufficient Overt Acts in proof and sufficient in the Impeachment Will any man deâ—y thaâ— tâ—e Receiving a Commission to be Pay-master of an Army is an Overt ' Act Will any deny that the sending for the Witness and offering him money in order to hire him to kill the King is an Overt Act and which answers to all will any man deny that the meeting and consulting of several men together about killing the King and changing the Government is an Overt Act. My Lords These are all Overt Acts and I cannot but think it was without advice of my Lords Counsel that he made these Objections for indeed these several Overt Acts are laid in the Impeachment as fully as they are made out in proof My Lords there is another Objection that my Lord is pleased to make and that is that there is but one Witness to a particular Fact L. H. Steward Ay What say you to that Sir Will. Jones That my Lords is of little weight with submission for our Impeachments and our Proofs run to this that my Lord had a Design and Intention to destroy the King this was to be done by Force and this was to be done by secret Assassination Now if several Witnesses come and prove each a distinct Act under this Head of killing the King it is so many Proofs or Witnesses to the Treason For my Lords if a man shall intend to kill the King and shall buy a Knife in one County at one time and send for a man out of another County at another time whom he shall hire to kill the King and these distinct Acts are proved by several Witnesses if they concur to the same general Treason they are all but parts of that and so are so many Witnesses to the whole And so I am sure it was resolved in the Case of others of the Conspirators in the Old Baily and before that in the Case of Sir Henry Vane But My Lords in this Case here is first a Proof that he accepted a Commission which I do not use as an Act for the levying of War only but as a Design to change the Government and destroy the King Here is meeting and consulting how to do this wicked Work I mean to kill the King that is another Overt Act Here is offering money to one of the Witnesses for that end that is a third Overt Act and there is attempting another of them though not with Money yet with Promises of Reward in general that is another Overt Act all which are to this end the Killing of the King And I am sure of it your Lordships cannot but receive satisfaction from my Lords the Judges that it hath always been so held that though there need Two Witnesses to prove Treason yet there needs no more than one to one Act and another to another if the several Acts fall under the same Head of Treason Sir Franc. Winn. My Lords I crave your patience but for a word or two and this Noble Lord will have little Reason to say his Objections in point of Law are of any weight I confess he had said a great thing if it were true that the Articles of Impeachment did not alledge an Overt Act for then indeed they had been apparently defective But under his pardon that is not a point of Law but
these be two such Witnesses as the Law requires I pray then my Lords consider the consequence of that doubt A man shall talk with twenty Persons about a Design to kill the King in one and the same Room one after another by taking them into a Corner singly and if ten or all twenty come to prove it here is but one Witness to each Discourse This would be a matter of dangerous Consequence but I hope will remain no manner of doubt with you nor is it fit to be argued As to the Hiring of Witnesses to Swear I think that can be no point of Law till it be so proved in Fact Doth his Lordship think that when His Majesty out of His Grace and Bounty allows a Maintainance to His Witnesses that that is an Objection to their Testimony Doth not every man allow his Witnesses a a Maintainance and yet it never was thought a thing to take away their Evidence It may be every one doth not give so large an allowance as the King because his Dignity is not so great But can it be an Objection to the House of Commons Have we that are the Prosecutors maintained them If His Majesty have been bountiful to His Witnesses what is that to this Cause of the Commons If my Lord can prove any thing of Bribery in us as he has proved for us against himself it may be an Objection But till that Fact be proved I hope there is no ground for a Question in Law and if there be no doubt in Law I hope there will be no need of Counsel Lord High Steward My Lord Stafford What are the Points you would have Counsel too Lord Stafford To all of them my Lords Lord High Steward Would you have Counsel to the first Point to argue what the Law of Parliaments is concerning the continuance of Impeachments from Parliament to Parliament Lord Stafford My Lords if you will declare the Law to be as these Gentlemen say I must acquiesce Lord High Steward Pardon me my Lord I do not declare the Law but ask you whether you would have Counsel to argue that Point Lord Stafford My Lords I do say there is no Example of it I know there have been Impeachments but no Examples of Impeachments continued from Parliament to Parliament Lord High Steward Then in the next place for I shall propose your Objections to their Lordships by and by and desire their Judgment in them Do you desire to argue by your Counsel that every Overt Act ought to be proved by two Witnesses Lord Stafford I do my Lords I desire my Counsel may be heard to all the Points I mentioned to your Lordships Lord High Steward Have you Counsel ready to speak to these Points now Lord Stafford Yes my Lords Lord High Steward Are they prepared to speak to them now Lord Stafford They are my Lords Lord High Steward If they be so what hurt will there be in hearing of them Sir William Jones My Lords Whether you will hear an Argument from Counsel about the Law of Parliaments I hope you will please well to consider Sir Fran. VVinnington My Lords We in the House of Commons do never suffer any Counsel to tell us what is the Course of our House and the Law of Parliaments if your Lordships think fit to allow it 't is in your own power but we who are intrusted with the Management of this Cause by the House of Commons have no direction to consent to such a thing Lord High Steward We will hear Counsel to save time upon that Point whether in proof of a Treason for killing the King every Overt Act ought to be proved by two Witnesses Sir William Jones If your Lordships make a doubt of it Sir Fran. Winnington And if the Prisoner desire it Mr. Serjeant Maynard My Lords We shall not oppose it but I shall wonder if any Counsel do maintain it Lord High Steward Are your Counsel ready to speak to that Point Lord Stafford Here they are my Lords Mr. Wallop of the Middle-Temple Mr. Saunders of the same Society and Mr. Hunt of Gray's Inn appeared by the Prisoner at the Bar as his Counsel Mr. Wallop May it please your Lordships we are here commanded by your Lordships to Attend that if any matter of Law do arise upon a Case proved agreed and judged by your Lordships debateable then in due time we are to conform our selves to your Lordships command and argue those Points for my Lord the Prisoner at the Bar. But if your Lordships do think that the Points urged by my Lord are not debateable in Law I have so high an Opinion of your Lordships Judgment and such a mean opinion of my own Talent that I shall not undertake to Argue Extempore in this great Assembly in a Cause of so high a Nature Lord High Steward Look you Sir you are of my Lords Counsel Mr. Wallop I am my Lords and by the Order of your Lordships do attend here Lord High Steward If you think it an arguable Point you will have the Judgment of my Lords afterwards Will you argue it now Mr. VVallop My Lords I always thought if a Point be stirred in any Court and thought disputable it should be stated and agreed before it be argued Lord High Steward You are to argue for my Lord and to know the Judgment of the Court afterwards would you know our Opinions before hand Mr. VVallop We would know what it is we are to argue if your Lordships please Lord High Steward Why if you are provided for it you are to maintain that by Law every Overt Act ought to be proved by two Witnesses if you are prepared speak to it and my Lords will hear you Mr. VVallop It is true my Lords there have been some publick Resolutions concerning that Point therefore I shall be the warier what I say in that But my Lords it is a matter that has been thought of great import one way or other but I do profess at this time I am not able to undertake a Solemn Argument upon that Point Lord Stafford My Lords I am so far from delaying this Cause that I desire it may be argued now Lord High Steward Then you are not ready to speak to it Mr. VVallop No my Lords I am not for my own part at present for it is impossible we should foresee what would be the Point and to apply our selves to study an unforeseen Case before it be agreed stated and judged worthy of Argument cannot be expected from us I have always observed it in the King's-Bench If the Prisoner urge any thing and the Court think it debateable they first agree and state the Case then Assign Counsel whom they do not urge to deliver an Opinion presently but give them time to prepare for it Lord High Steward Mr. VVallop it is not believed that this Point is moved but by your Advice that are of my Lord's Council and you should be ready to maintain the Advice you give
therefore if you are so speak You have the Protection of the Court for the Counsel you give in matter of Law and whatever Advice you give you should maintain by Law Mr. VVallop Truly my Lords it is a Point that has as I said before received some Settlement but whether ever in this Court or no I cannot tell Therefore I did discharge my thoughts of providing any Argument till your Lordships should have determined whether you will take the Point upon the Resolutions in the Courts below to be finally settled and determined Sir William Jones So then it is agreed to be settled in the ordinary Courts Lord Stafford I desire also it may be argued whether words are an Overt Act. Sir Francis Winnington It seems the Law is with us in case of a Commoner but whether it be so for a Lord is the Question Lord High Steward My Lord Stafford How comes it to pass that your Lordship came prepared with Objections but not with Counsel ready to argue them Lord Stafford Mr. Wallop has given you an Answer I must stand by that Lord High Steward Is it your Lordships pleasure that we Adjourn Lords Ay Ay. Lord High Steward This House is Adjourned into the Parliament Chamber Then the Lords returned to their House in their Order and the Committee of Commons staid in their Places to attend their Resolutions In one hours time the Lords returned and my Lord High Steward being seated upon the Woolpack Silence was proclaimed Lord High Steward My Lord Stafford My Lords since they have been withdrawn have considered of one Point of that point chiefly which your Lordship did move touching the necessity of two Witnesses to every Overt Act alledged as Evidence of High Treason that is the point you have desired Counsel to speak to and that is the point your Counsel desired to know whether it was a doubtful or debateable point before they would argue it and hereupon my Lords did withdraw to consider it And my Lords have directed that all the Judges that assist them and are here in your Lordships presence and hearing should deliver their Opinions whether it be doubtful and disputable or no. Then all the Judges consulted privately together and afterwards gave their Opinion Seriatim beginning with the Lord Cbief Justice North the Lord Chief Justice Scroggs being absent Lord Chief Justice North. My Lords I do here deliver my Opinion and I am cleà r in it That if there be several Overt Acts or Facts which are Evidences of the same Treason if there be one Witness to prove one such Overt Act at one time and another Witness to prove another Overt Act at another time both the Acts being Evidences of the same Treason these are two sufficient Witnesses of that Treason and will maintain an Indictment or an Impeachment of Treason I never knew any doubt made of it in any Inferiour Court of Justice and I have known it often resolved Lord Chief Baron Montague My Lords where ever Treason is to be proved to every Overt Act two Witnesses as I conceive are not required If so be there are two Witnesses to several Overt Acts conducing to a proof of the same Treason I think they are Witnesses in the Judgment of the Law such as the Statute requires Mr. Justice Windham I am of the same Opinion with my Lord Chief Justice North and my Lord Chief Baron That if there be several Overt Acts done at several times tending to the same Treason these several Acts being severally proved by several credible Witnesses though but by one Witness at each time to each Act the said several Acts being Evidences of the same Treason these are sufficient Witnesses of that Treason so proved and will maintain an Indictment or as I conceive an Impeachment Mr. Justice Jones My Lords if several Witnesses speak to the same kind of Treason although they speak to several Overt Acts and give Evidence of several times the one of them speaking to one time and the other to another time yet keeping still to the same kind of Treason they are such two Witnesses as are required by the Statute of Edward the 6 th and this I do take to be the constant Opinion of the Courts below Mr. Justice Dolben My Lords I am of the same Opinion and I know it hath been many times so resolved I have been present when Sentence hath passed upon Persons by whom the same Case hath been urged and it hath been so resolved And it hath been moved in Westminster-Hall and that was the constant Opinion of the Judges there particularly in the Case of Sir Henry Vane It was upon solemn Debate resolved and divers times it hath been held that the same Treason may be proved by two Witnesses to several Overt Acts though one speak of Words or Actions that were spoken or done at one time and in one place and another speak of Words or Actions at another time and in another place those are two good Witnesses in Treason within the intent of the Law and if the Law were otherwise 't were scarce possible to convict any man of Treason and therefore I take it to be very clear Mr. Justice Raymond I am of the same Opinion That where several Cirstances are brought to prove the same Treason one Witness to each of the several Circumstances is sufficient and this I conceive hath been always the Opinion of the Judges Mr. Baron Atkins My Lords I am of the same Opinion That there must be two Witnesses in the Case of Treason is a matter without Question but there are several Overt Acts that may contribute to the effecting of that Treason If a man designs to kill the King and buyes Powder at one place at one time and a Pistol at another place at another time and promises a Reward to one to assist him to do the thing at a third place and a third time these are several Overt Acts but if the Law requires that each be proved by two Witnesses I do not well see how any man can be Convicted of Treason In the Case of Sir Henry Vane and others this very Question was started but was not thought worthy of Debate if it should be otherwise it would touch the Judgments which have been given upon this kind of Proof and what would the Consequence of that be but that those persons who were Executed upon those Judgments have suffered illegally And therefore I am of Opinion that it is not requisite there should be two Witnesses to every Overt Act. Mr. Baron Gregory My Lords I am of the same Opinion it is Treason to Conspire the Death of the King Now each of the Witnesses is a Witness to prove that Treason the one says he offered him such a Reward in such a place that is one Witness to prove that he Conspired the Death of the King and another says that he offered him such a Reward in another place that is another Witness that he Conspired the
Death of the King For the Party is indicted upon one particular Overt Act but he is indicted for Treason in Conspiring the Death of the King and each of thâ— Witnesses being to prove that though they speak to several Acts they are good Witnesses according to the Law Mr. Baron Weston My Lords I am of the same Opinion with my Reverend Brethren who have spoke before me Mr. Justice Charlton My Lords I am of the same Opinion and I think truly it would be the easiest matter for a man to Commit Treason and escape without questioning if it should be otherwise But this is the first time that I have heard it hath been made a Question that to the same Treason there must be two Witnesses to every Overt Act. It hath been adjudged always according to the Law that to prove Treason there must be two Witnesses but to any Overt Act there needs but onâ— Lord High Steward My Lord Stafford By the uniform Opinion of all my Lords the Judges there is no colour to doubt the Law in that point which you desire to argue So that as to that point you must rest satisfied you are not to have Counsel to speak to it For the rest I have no Commission yet from my Lords to say any thing Lord Stafford Will your Lordships give me leave to say one thing to what I have heard I would answer if I might only to one Judge I think they call him Judge Atkins Lord High Steward Your Lordship may say what you please Lord Stafford My Lords I hear a strange Position I never heard the like before in my life and 't is what he said if I am in the wrong I beg your Lordships pardon and his too He told your Lordships the Reason why the Law should be so was because else a great many of those persons that have already been Executed must have been acknowledged unjustly cut off and put to Death that is an Argument I hope will not weigh with your Lordships or any body for 't is better that a Thousand persons that are Guilty should escape than that one Innocent person should die much more then that it should not be declared that such a Judgment was not well given Lord High Steward Look you my Lord where many Reasons are given 't is easie to make a Reply to one of the least among many that was one Reason given but the true Reason is this if the Law were otherwise there would be great safety in Conspiring the Death of the King Lord Stafford My Lords I say nothing further as to the rest but this stuck with me I am sorry to hear a Judge should say any such thing and though I am in such a weak and disturbed Condition I assure your Lordships my Blood rises at it Lord High Steward Is it your Lordships pleasure that we should Adjourn Lords Ay Ay. Lord High Steward Then this House is Adjourned into the Parliament Chamber The Lords withdrew in their Order and the Committee of Commons went back to their House Mr. Speaker resumed the Chair A Message was sent from the Lords by Sir Timothy Baldwyn and Sir Samuel Clarke Mr. Speaker The Lords have sent us to acquaint this House That they have ordered William Viscount Stafford to be brought again to the Bar in Westminster-Hall on Munday morning next at Ten of the Clock After which the House of Commons Adjourned to Eight of the Clock on Munday morning The Sixth Day Munday December 6. 1680. ABout the hour of Eleven in the morning the Lords being Adjourned into Westminster-Hall going thither in their former Order into the Court there Erected and Mr. Speaker having left the Chair the Committee of Commons were Seated as before The Court being Sate Proclamation for Silence was made and the Lieutenant Commanded to bring his Prisoner to the Bar which being done the Lord High Steward began Lord High Steward Read my Lord Stafford's Petition To the Right Honourable the Lords in Parliament Assembled The humble Petition of William Viscount of Stafford Humbly shewing unto your Lordships that he hath some things to offer unto your Lordships in order to clear himself which he hopeth to do Your Petitioner doth therefore with all humility most humbly beseech your Lordships to give him leave to offer some things unto your Lordships Consideration And your Petitioner shall ever pray c. Stafford Lord High Steward My Lord Stafford my Lords have been willing upon your Petition to come and hear what that is that your Lordship hath to offer And they would know whether it be matter of Fact or matter of Law For your Lordship must know that as to Witnesses the Process is closed Lord Stafford I do not pretend any more Witnesses my Lords Lord High Steward Then my Lord what is it that you would say Lord Stafford My Lords I did Yesterday receive an Order from your Lordships and upon that and some other things that I have to trouble your Lordships with I did petition for this favour which I humbly thank your Lordships for granting If I be impertinent I shall beg your Lordships pardon and I hope you will be pleased to consider my Weakness at all times especially in this condition I am now in but I hope by your Lordships favour to be in an happier one quickly For the matters of proof I shall offer not a tittle but my Lords this Order which I received does say That the Lords Assembled in Parliament have ordered that my Counsel shall not be heard touching the continuance of Impeachments from Parliament to Parliament but I hope my Lords you will please without Offence to let me offer to your Lordships my own Conceptions about it which I shall do as briefly as I can My Lords I do not conceive by this Order That your Lordships say it does or it does not continue You have given no Judgment as I know of in it when you have I shall acquiesce but I hope your Lordships will resolve that it does not And my Lords my reasons for it are two the first is because one of the Managers for the House of Commons as I take it Sir William Jones said these words and your Lordships may remember them That if there were no such President your Lordships would make a President whether you will or no that I must submit to your Lordships but then there is none yet The next thing is my Lords this whether an Impeachment be to be prosecuted in Parliament without an Indictment this my Lords I humbly hope your Lordships are resolved it ought not For I see not how truely my Lords it can be by the little reading which I have had in the Law I never found any man prosecuted in a Legal way but by an Indictment I may be mistaken and I beg your Lordships pardon for troubling you with my mistakes but I never read of any that were prosecuted upon an Impeachment so then the Legal usual word being Indictment
I hope your Lordships will not alter the form for I hope you will keep that great Maxim of your Noble Ancestors Nolumus Leges Angliae mutare and whether this be a Change of the Law or no I submit it to your Lordships A third thing is this Your Lordships do not think fit that my Counsel shall plead to that Point whether Words do amount to an Overt Act for hearing my Counsel to that likewise I do not pretend but I hope your Lordships will give me leave to say this I never heard that Words did amount to an Overt Act if your Lordships judge otherwise I submit but till then I hope it shall not conclude me There were some other Points which I did offer to your Lordships and I humbly beseech you to know whether my Counsel shall be heard to them 't is true one of them which was whether two Witnesses in several places did amount to a legal Testimony or no your Lordships did not declare one way or another If you say you acquiesce in the Opinion of the Judges I must submit but till Judgment is given I beseech your Lordships to give me leave to tell you my weak thoughts about it I did not hear what the Judges said all of them but as I apprehend they were all of one Opinion 'T is true one of them that spoke last I think it was Judge Atkins did say it did amount to a legal Testimony because else those Juries that have found some Guilty upon the same sort of Evidence should be perjured but if this were not so then upon the same grounds under your Lordships favour those Juries that acquitted some upon such Testimony were perjured but I must believe it to be otherwise till your Lordships have declared it as your Opinion for that reason will not hold for the same reason will be for the perjuring the one as for the perjuring the other And the same Juries for the most part tryed those that were found guilty and those that were acquitted Lord High Steward Is this all your Lordship will please to say Lord Stafford No my Lords if you would give me leave I would trouble you a little farther if it were an Offence I would not say a word My Lords I do conceive I am not concerned in the general Plot of the Papists for I am not proved to be so and whatsoever I may be in my self as I conceive or whatsoever there is of hearsay I hope your Lordships will not go upon that but upon what is proved Secundum allegata probata and that common Fame will condemn no man if it do then no man is safe but I must say there is not one word of proof offered that I am a Papist I hope my Lords I have cleared my self to your Lordships and made my Innocency appear by making appear the perjury of the Witnesses and the falshood of those things they said against me Against Dugdale I have proved it by two of his own Witnesses the one was Eld the woman that swore for him That he took up a Glass of Cyder and wished that it might be his Poyson if he knew any thing of the Plot the other was Whitby who says he had given my Lord Aston's Father warning long ago what a Knave he was So 't is clear for Dr. Oats I hope from his Contradictions against himself as well as Dugdale who does contradict himself at one time August at another time the latter end of August or the beginning of September And I hope your Lordships will give no credit to Oats's Testimony for he said before your Lordships he had declared all he knew 't is true I was then accused but not for having a Commission as he now swears and afterwards he accused the Queen so here is Oats against Oats and Dugdale against Dugdale and for Turbervill I have proved by his Affidavit first he swears one thing and then another and the truth of it is his Brother proved him false in his last Oath that it was 7â— and not 72. My Lords 'T is not my part to make any Question nor do I whether a Plot or no Plot for I am not concerned in it If what I shall say now be impertinent I humbly beg your Lordships pardon My Lords I have been by the most of my Friends at least every one that came to me particularly by my Wife and Daughter that is near me persuaded to tell all that I knew and I do here in the presence of Almighty God declare what I know to be true Lord High Steward What says my Lord Speak out Lord Stafford My Lords I do believe since the Reformation from the Church of Rome to what it is now Established the Church of England those of that Religion have had several wicked and ill Designs and Plots I do believe they had a Design in Queen Elizabeth's time Babbington's Plot that is a long time ago how far it was to take away the Queens Life I can't tell but a Plot it was I do believe there was another in her time called Earl of Westmorland's Plot wherein there was a Rebeâ—â—ion in the North for which some fled and some were Executed that was a very ill design As for those poysonings of her Saddle and the like I take them to be but stories In King James's time in the first year of his Reign there was a wicked Plot composed by Actors some of one Religion some of another there was my Lord Grey my Lord Cobham my Lord Brooke and others such they were condemned all of them some fled as Markham and Bainham those Lords and Sir Walter Rawleigh were Reprived and kept long in the Tower But Sir Walter Rawleigh was afterwards upon that same Judgment Beheaded and the Lords dyed in the Tower My Lords Next to that was the Execrable Treason that I spoke of at first the Gun-powder-Treason And I protest before Almighty God I did from my Infancy detest and abhor those men that were engaged in it and I do think and always did think the Wit of Man nor the Devils Malice can't invent an Excuse for it For the men concerned they all acknowledged it confessed it and beg'd pardon of the King and God and all good men for it that is all I shall say to that now My Lords Since his Majesties happy Restauration I do conceive and I think I may safely say it for you all know it he was gracious and good to all Dissentersd particularly to them of the Romish Church they had Connivance and Indulgence in their private Houses and I declare to your Lordships I did then say to some that were too open in their Worship that they did play foul in taking more Liberty upon them than was fitting for them too and that brought the misfortune upon me which I will not name My Lordâ— it was not long ago that your Lordships at your own Bar did allow all the Dissenters from the Church of England
disturbance But we desire your Lordships to consider whether this practise of having things written down for the Clerk to read may not introduce a Custom which may in time grow inconvenient for future Example I see no great danger in the particular Instance before your Lordships now but it is dangerous in such Cases to do any thing that is new in this Court Lord High Steward All the matter is whether it be read by my Lord who cannot be heard or read by the Clerk Sir Thomas Lee. We only oppose it out of fear of making a President which may be of ill consequence Lord High Steward Read it my Lord and raise your voice for it concerns you to speak out Lord Stafford Reading out of his Paper My Lords when I offered Matter of Law to your Lordships on Saturday last I did in no wise admit the Matter of Fact to be true that was alledged against me and so I desire to be understood And I hope your Lordships will not lay the less weight upon the Testimony of my Witnesses because they are not sworn for the Law does not suffer them to be sworn which is no fault of mine nor ought not to turn to my Prejudice I must appeal to your Lordships Judgments in point of Fact how far the Kings Witnesses are to be believed against me considering the whole matter and my Counter-proof Next I submit to your Lordships Judgments this point That the Impeachment being founded upon the Common Law and the Statute of 25 th Edw. 3. and not upon the Statute of 13 th of this King two of the Witnesses Dugdale and Turbervill do only swear Treasonable words spoken by me and not my Overt Act for they swear only that I promised them Money and Rewards to kill the King Now I humbly pray your Lordships Judgment whether bare speaking of words be an Overt Act and Treason at the Common Law or upon that Statute and whether there be more than speaking of Words in a Consult or otherwise proved by Dugdale and Turbervill I appeal to you then the other Witness Oats is but a single Witness who speaks of the receiving of a Commission This is that I offer to your Lordships now for your Judgments and then I desire I may have your Opinion in other things Lord High Steward Is this all your Lordship hath to say Lord Stafford For the present my Lords Lord High Steward You must say all you have to say now Lord Stafford Is it your Lordships pleasure to hear Counsel to nothing at all I did likwise alledge to your Lordships th' other day that People that swear for Money are not competent credible Witnesses how far that was proved or I may prove by my Counsel I submit to your Lordships Lord High Stewared Look you my Lord you have so far received already the pleasure of the House You have raised several Questions of Law whether every Overt Act require two Witnesses to prove it You have had the Opinion of the Judges and there is no more to be said in it As to that whether Impeachments continue from Parliament to Parliament and the other thing whether Proceedings may be upon an Impeachment without an Indictment these are matters of the Course and Constitutions of Parliaments my Lords will consider of them by themselves and will permit no Counsel to argue them For the other Point That words are no Overt Act that rests for their Opinion in another Case when it shall come for they have now no such Case before them Lord Stafford Thumbly conceive there is Lord High Steward There is a great difference between bare words being an Overt Act and perswasion by Promises of Money and Rewards to kill the King which is a very great Overt Act. Lord Stafford Is it possible to do an Act by Words If it be so I never heard it before Lord High Steward Otherwise men may promise Rewards to â—0 several persons to kill the King and then say 't is all but Words Lord Stafford I say it not but I humbly conceive the Law says it Lord High Steward What say you Gentlemen of the House of Commons Lord Stafford My Lords I have something to say which I desire to speak first My Lords I hope I have cleared to your Lordships that all the Witnesses have swore false against me and this I have made out by Proofs I say not much to that My Lord was searching for his Papers Truly my Lords I am confounded with the Noise and other Circumstances but my Lords I shall if your Lordships please to give me leave humbly represent my Case to you how I take it to be in matter of Fact as to my own Condition not any thing but how I am now before your Lordships I was my Lords committed by my Lord Chief Justices Warrant on the 20. or 21. of October 78. Friday the 25. of October I was brought to your Lordships Bar I was Impeached I do not remember the day my Lords the beginning of December in one Parliament Articles exhibited against me in another Parliament I was brought upon these Articles exhibited and being called to your Lordships Bar the Articles were read to me and I gave in my Answer that was sometime in May 79. and in the end of May the 27. if I mistake not if I do I desire it may be rectified by your Books I with the other Lords were brought to this place in order to our Trial. We staid some time there and then were remanded by your Order to the Tower where I continued till November twelve month after without having heard any thing concerning it so that I was first Impeached in one Parliament Articles brought against me and pleaded to in a second and now brought to my Trial in a third and what your Lordships will say upon this I submit to you and whether these be Proceedings according to Law your Lordships will judge My Lords I humbly conceive that Magna Charta says That Justice shall be denied nor delayed to no man whether it hath not been delayed to me let your Lordships judge If you say the Prorogation of the Parliament is the cause of that delay I hope your Lordships will give me leave to say That from the 5. of December to the 30. when the first Parliament was Prorogued or during the Session of the other Parliament there was time enough sure wherein I might have been brought to my Trial and if these proceedings be lawful and just there is no man living but may be kept off from time to time till some Accidents happen that their ends may be gained I leave it to your judgment whether it may be only my Case now or of some of your Lordships in future Ages to be accused of things that you never heard of before and not brought to justifie your selves but kept in Prison My Lords There is a Statute I have forgot where it is but such a one I have read that though
the King by his great Seal or little Seal command that Justice should be delaid or denied yet however the Judges shall not obey it but proceed So I hope there is no pretence of delay on my part and the benefit of that Statute shall not be denied me And that Statute of the Great Charter which cost so many of your Ancestors their Lives to maintain I hope you will never go from Now your Lordships Noble Ancestors amongst other things took great care that Justice should be denied or delayed to none and this I desire you to take into Consideration I am in your Lordships Judgment either to be Acquitted or Condemned I hope your Lordships will and I know you will lay your Hands upon your Hearts consult your Consciences and your Honours and then you will do what is Just and Equitable I doubt not My Lords Mr. Oats said I came by the name of Mr. Howard of Essingham but that I did to my Letters sign Stafford surely my Lords if I was ashamed to own my Person I should have been as much ashamed to have owned my Name He says he saw me take a Commission and whether that be an Overt Act your Lordships are to determine Upon the whole matter I conceive there is nothing proved against me but words nor pretended to but only by Oats And whether you will credit a man that so dissembles with God as I have told you I appeal to your Lordships and beg you to consider of it That these Witnesses have sworn for Money if you send to the Exchequer Office and see what Money they have received you will find by the great Sums that 't is so and then I hope you will not allow them to be heard nor credit any that swear for gain I had a Suit in Westminster-Hall that had like to have gone expresly against me only because one of my Witnesses was to gain 8 l. if the Suit went for me But pray consider how much these men have had And for the point that there are not two Witnesses I beseech your Lordships give me leave to put you in mind That not many Years ago you passed an Act against Frauds and Perjuries wherein you were so careful to preserve mens Estates that you required three Witnesses to prove a Will of Goods or Lands above 100 l. and will you allow but one Witness to take away a mans Life for Words Though your Lordships will never commit Treason yet no man can preserve himself from the Misfortune that happens to me of being falsly accused 'T is true my Lords the Managers have given an Answer to the Business of the Money by saying The King may give as liberally as he pleases but to give so great Sums whereby Men Poor before are now become Rich I think will be an Objection against their Credit My Lords I have said what I do think convenient though I think much more might be said by an abler man to your Lordships for the clearing of himself I hope I have done it nay I am confident I have and this I have done for the Memory of that Great and Blessed King who first made me a Peer that it may not be said He did me the Honour Forty Years ago to call me up to this Dignity and I should fly in the Face of his Son in so horrible a manner as these men would make me I do owe it to the Honour of my Father and Mother who I think I may safely say were both Honourable and Worthy Persons My Father was a learned man and a wise man as I may appeal to some of your Lordships who knew him well I say I owe it to their Memory and to the Honour of the Family from whence I sprang which all the world knows what it is And I should be an infamous man to dishonour them so much as to bear their Name and commit Treason My Lords I owe it to my Wife who hath been a very kind Wife to me as ever Man had She is Heiress at Law to the great Estate of that great and unfortunate Man Stafford Duke of Buckingham who was cut offin the Reign of King Henry the Eighth and all his Estate if it were not for that Attainder would have come to her I may be impertinent in telling your Lordships what it was but I do not over-say it when I reckon it would have been at this day Two hundred thousand pounds a Year for it was Seventeen thousand pounds a Year in those days Penny Rent besides other Emoluments This is an extravagant thing to say but 't is true something thereof does remain to her which I now enjoy I owe it to all my Children especially to my Eldest Son who is a young Man and I may say of far better Parts and Hopes than his Father and whom I hope will serve his Country I owe it to all my Friends and Relations for I would not have it said after-my Death my Wife was the Widow of a Traytor I owe it to all these but above all I owe it to God Almighty then when I come to be judged by Him I may give a good account of what he hath intrusted me with that I may not appear as an infamous Man who knows he hath a Body but not his own and yet should throw it and his Soul away together And if I should have committed this Execrable Treason I should have been Guilty of my own Murder First in the committing a Crime worthy of Death and then in not Confessing to save my Life I hold Murder an extraordinary Crime the worst next to Treason And I know if I should not prevent my Death by confessing all I knew I should have been guilty of Self-Murder the worst of Murders I know your Lordships will lay to Heart what an execrable thing Murder is and the Blood of Innocents and I hope there is none of the House of Commons but after this Evidence will clear me I am sure none of them would have me punished for that I am not Guilty of I do not blame these Gentlemen of the House of Commons for Prosecuting nor the first for Impeaching for they had without all doubt Reasons great enough for it upon what Evidence they had before them before they knew what the Witnesses were I know your Lordships will not in the least point vary from Justice or the Law of the Land and I desire you to lay the whole matter to your Hearts I have not the least suspicion of the Partiality of any Man in the House nay I profess if I had an Enemy and he were not here I would beg of you that he might come I have cleared my self before your Lordshships and I hope I shall not be run down by the wicked Rabble which where it will end God knows It began in the late times against my Lord of Strafford and so continued till it ended in that most Execrable Fact one of them that ever was done
A wicked beginning it was and it had a wicked end For since our Saviours Death and Murder by the Jews never was so execrable a Murder in the World and whoever had an hand in it without an extraordinary Repentance can have no thoughts of Salvation I never could serve the King 't is true but in my desires and I never disserted him in Thought Word or Deed to my knowledg in my life much less did I ever contrive or consent to his Death I do in the presence of God Angels your Lordships and all Men declare I do know no more of the Plot or any such thing than any one here does That those of the Romish Religion had meetings I believe to obtain those ends that I spake of before Coleman went too far how far he was Criminal in it I cann't tell Meetings I say there were but I was never at one of them nor do I know what was done there I do leave it to your Lordships to do Justice as I know you will and with all submission I resign my self up to you Lord High Steward Have you done my Lord Lord Stafford If your Lordships will not allow me Counsel to argue those Points I have done Lord High Steward What say you Gentlemen of the House of Commons Mr. Serjeant Maynard My Lords some thing that my Lord hath spoken hath been resolved against him that is about two Witnesses to each Overt-act some things are not to be disputed about the Law and Course of Parliaments some things were not to be said now because he had said them before My Lords we had concluded our Evidence and he is pleased to take up the time with repeating what was said before For the other matters that my Lord is pleased to discourse of all he says is but his Obligations and how unreasonable it were for him to do it the Question is whether he hath done it or no if he hath his Obligations are an Aggravation of his Crime not an Excuse His Relations his Family and other things are nothing before your Lordships now in point of Judgment nor is there any thing new said to day that was not said before Sir William Jones My Lords I should not add one word further were it not that this Noble Lord is pleased upon his Memory or rather without to say something of me and that was that speaking of the Continuance of Procâ—edings I should say if your Lordships had no President I hope you would make one My Lords I do appeal to your Lordships Memory whether I said any thing like it I utterly deny it nor was there any occasion for it For there was no need of urging Presidents when your Lordships upon a Conference with the Commons did declare it to be the Law of Proceedings in Parliament and did then fortifie iâ— with many Arguments I know my Lords Memory is not very good I 'm sure in this he is very much mâ—staken My Lord hath been pleased to complain he hath received much disturbance and that the Noise and Shouts have been so great that they have occasioned some lâ—straction in him My Lords I am sure his Lordship cannot mean us for I appeal to your Lordships and all that have heard this Tryal whether he hath received the least disturbance or interruption from us or whether we have not treated him with that respect that becomes his Dignity and the Discretion that ought to be in the Managers of the House of Commons But I must needs say that his Lordship hath received distraction from those Friends or Counsel of his that put those many Papers into his Hand for he hath read one after another that do contain the same matter over and over again These I confess were sufficient to distract him or any other that should make use of them His Lordship hath been pleased to go off from the matter of Law to the matter of Fact and backward and forward so that it is impossible to follow him And as to the matter of Fact we shall decline to follow him for though we have not given his Lordship any disturbance yet we submit to your Judgment whether it be Regular or according to the Course of Proceedings when his Lordship hath sum'd up his Evidence and we that are the Prosecutors have concluded ours he should begin that work again which if it should be admitted we were to reply and he might rejoin upon us and so there would be no end of Proceedings And my Lords I hope though this Lord hath had the favour to do it yet it shall not for the future be brought into Example for it will make Tryals endless My Lords for the matter of Law there is nothing that deserves an Answer for though the Law does admit the Prisoner Counsel in matters of Law yet it must be in things doubtful And if there be any thing of that in our Case I submit it to your Lordships I am sure I have heard nothing new but what hath been over-ruled already unless it be a matter of Law which rises upon a matter of Fact and that not proved to wit the Corruption of Witnesses The last day all was said by his Lordship he could say and all said by us that we thought fit to say and now to begin the same matter again I think ought not to be admitted We shall not follow his Lordship in that way of Proceedings and hope it shall never fall into Example Sir Francis Winnington My Lords I have only one word to say to your Lordships and that is in relation to the Proceedings of the Commons in this Cause for if the Cause had not been of an extraordinary nature we should have stood upon it that the Prisoner ought not after the Prosecutors had concluded to have taken a liberty of reading and repeating what we had said over and over again We know my Lords there are are a sort of men in the world who are willing to lay hold of any pretences to cavil at our Proceedings and therefore we have let my Lord take all this liberty that so his Party might have no colour of Complaint His Lordship was pleased to say the last day that he had not a Witness more to produce nor a Reason to give as I understood him and therefore he must own that we have been very tender to him in all our Proceedings One thing my Lord insinuates to day which I cannot forbear taking notice of as if we had delayed him which is without cause we had used all diligence in preparing our selves and were soon ready when the King was pleased to let the Parliament sit and therefore it can be no imputation on us and truly if my Lord considers the weight of the Evidence I fear he will think his Tryal comes soon enough now Lord Stafford My Lords I desire to be rightly understood in one thing and 't is only this I did not say the House of Commons shouted at me but the
John Trevor Then we desire they may be produced here and the Copies proved upon Oath and then we shall leave them upon your Lordships Table And my Lords we desire likewise at the same time to save another trouble there may be delivered in the Convictions of Reading Lane Knox and others Then Mr. Clare was Sworn and delivered in the Copies of the Records L. H. Stew. What Record is that Mr. Clare It is the Record of the Attainder of Coleman for high Treason L. H. Stew. Did you examine it Mr. Clare I did examine it L. H. Stew. Is it a true Copy Mr. Clare To the best of my understanding it is Here is likewise a Copy of the Record of the Conviction of Ireland Pickering and Grove for high Treason L. H. Stew. Is there Judgment of Attainder entred upon Record Mr. Clare Yes my Lords there is Judgement entred Here is a Copy of the Indictment Conviction and Attainder of Whitebread Fenwick Harcourt Gavan and Turner for high Treason Here is a Copy of the Record of Attainder of Richard Langhorn for high Treason Here is a Copy of the Attainder of Green Berry and Hill for the Murder of Sir Edmond-bury Godfrey Here is a Copy of the Conviction of Mr. Nathaniel Reading for endeavouring to Suborn Mr. Bedlow to retract his Evidence against some of the Lords in the Tower and Sir Henry Tichbourn L. H. Stew. What is the Judgment there Mr. Clare The Judgment is entred upon it and 't is to pay 1000 l. Fine and to be put in and upon the Pillory in the Palace Yard Westminster for an hour with a Paper upon his head written in great Letters For endeavouring Subornation of Perjury Here is a Copy of the Record of the Conviction of Tasbrough and Price for endeavouring to Suborn Mr. Dugdale and Judgment entred upon it And here is a Copy of the Record of Conviction of Knox and Lane for Conspiring to asperse Dr. Oats and Mr. Bedlow Here is the Record of the Conviction of John Giles for barbarously attempting to Assassinate John Arnold Esq one of His Majesties Justices of the Peace and the Judgment entred thereupon is To stand three times on the Pillory with a Paper on his Hat declaring his Offence to pay â—00 l. to the King to lie in Execution till the same be paid and find Sureties for his Good Behaviour during life L. H. Stew. Deliver them all in And if my Lords have occasion to doubt of any thing being left in the Court they will be there ready â—o be used All which were then delivered in Mr. Treby My Lords we humbly desire that the Record of Coleman may be read because there is more of special matter in it than any of the rest and your Lordships may dispose of the others as you please L. H. Stew. Read the Record of Coleman Then the Clerk read in Latin the Record of the Attainder of Edward Coleman formerly Executed for high Treason by him Committed in this horrid Popish Plot which in English is as followeth viz. Of the Term of Saint MICHAEL in the Thirtieth Year of the Reign of King CHARLES the Second c. Middlesex AT another time to wit on VVednesday next after eight days of St. Martin this same Term before our Lord the King at VVestminster by the Oath of Twelve Jurors honest and lawful Men of the County aforesaid Sworn and Charged to Enquire for our said Lord the King and the Body of the County aforesaid it stands presented That Edward Coleman late of the Parish of Saint Margaret VVestminster in the County of Middlesex Gentleman as a false Traitor against the most Illustrious most Serene and most Excellent Prince our Lord CHARLES the Second by the Grace of God of England Scotland France and Ireland King Defender of the Faith c. and his Natural Lord not having the Fear of God in his Heart nor weighing the Duty of his Allegiance but by the instigation of the Devil moved and seduced the cordial Love and the true due and Natural Obedience which true and faithful Subjects of our said Lord the King towards Him our said Lord the King ought and of right are bound to bear utterly withdrawing and devising and with his whole Strength intending the Peace and common Tranquility of this Kingdom of England to disturb and the true Worship of God within this Kingdom of England practised and by Law established to overthrow and Sedition and Rebellion within this Realm of England to move stir up and procure and the cordial Love and true and due Obedience which true and faithful Subjects of our said Lord the King towards Him our said Lord the King should bear and of right are bound to bear utterly to withdraw blot out and extinguish and our said Lord the King to death and final destruction to bring and put the 29 th day of September in the 27 th year of the Reign of our Lord CHARLES the Second by the Grace of God of England Scotland France and Ireland King Defender of the Faith c. at the Parish of St. Margaret VVestminster aforesaid in the County aforesaid falsly maliciously subtilly and traiterously proposed compassed imagined and intended Sedition and Rebellion within this Realm of England to move raise up and procure and a miserable Slaughter among the Subjects of our said Lord the King to procure and cause and our said Lord the King from his Kingly State Title Power and Government of His Realm of England utterly to deprive depose deject and disinherit and Him our said Lord the King to Death and final Destruction to bring and put and the Government of the same Realm and the sincere Religion of God in this Kingdom rightly and by the Laws of this Realm established for his Will and Pleasure to change and alter and the State of this whole Kingdom in its universal parts well instituted and ordained wholly to subvert and destroy and War against our said Lord the King within this Realm of England to levy and to accomplish and fulfil these his most wicked Treasons and traiterous Imaginations and Purposes aforesaid The same Edward Coleman afterwards to wit the said Twenty ninth day of September in the abovesaid Twenty Seventh year of the Reign of our said Lord the King at the Parish of Saint Margaret VVestminster aforesaid in the County of Middlesex aforesaid falsly subtilly and traiterously devised composed and writ two Letters to be sent to one Monsieur Le Chese then Servant and Confessor of Lewis the French King to desire procure and obtain to the said Edward Coleman and other false Traitors against our said Soveragin Lord the King from the said French King his Aid Assistance and Adherence to alter the true Religion in this Kingdom then and still Established to the Superstition of the Church of Rome and to Subvert the Government of this Kingdom of England And afterwards to wit the said Twenty Ninth Day of September in the abovesaid Twenty Seventh Year