you finde that our Saviour would have it used for a pattern Min. In the sixt chapter of the Gospel written by Saint Matthew and the nineth verse where it is written that our Saviour said After this manner pray you Our Father which c. ANSWER I would that all in your book could have been as well approved as this for here you speak both the words of sobernesse and truth and I commend you for it DIALOGUE Gent. Why will not the witch acknowledge Christ to be the Lord Min. Because the Devill would have her to take Him and not Christ for her Lord. ANSWER This is mentioned to great purpose I promise you is it not I am loath to trifle away the time in these passages I should else go neer hand to tell you that as Simon Magus was taken for some great one because he had a long time bewitched the people with sorceries so you perhaps would be thought some great one too for your profound knowledge in what passeth between the Devill and witches of which you have so often told us But whilest you are so busie in the Theory of their trade and apply your speculations no better you doe but shew your selfe in your colours to please a company of frantick and mis-perswaded people wilfull and wandring soules who are led with an intemperate spirit as well as you The simple saith Solomon Prov. 14.15,16 beleeveth every word but the prudent man looketh well to his going A wise man feareth and departeth from evill but the foole rageth and is confident Ch. 16. v. 29 30 A violent man entiseth his neighbour and leadeth him into the way that is not good He shutteth his eyes to devise froward things moving his lips he bringeth evill to passe Ch. 15.2 The tongue of the wise useth knowledge aright but the mouth of fooles bableth out foolishnesse And I pray good Sir doe you a little work upon that DIALOGUE Gent. Why doe some say that the Priest and Clarke when they doe Church a woman are like to a couple of players acting their parts Min. Because the Priest doth skip over these words But deliver us from evill and doth leave them to the Clark to say for his part c. ANSWER Before he was like to a Witch but now he and his Clark are likened to Players you will one day be ashamed of this I feare unlesse you act a better part before you leave the stage your present Plaudite may deceive you the future is that which is most materiall But le ts goe on and see what followeth DIALOGUE Min. And then as soon as the Clark hath said them the Priest saith Lord save this woman thy Servant then the Clark comes in again with his part saying which putteth her trust in thee then the Priest as though he would not have the woman to put her trust in him turns her over to the Clark and bids him be unto her a strong Tower then the Clarke answereth and sheweth wherein saying from the face of her enemy ANSWER Oh desperate wickednesse dares any man be so bold as to utter such impieties The first words Lord save this woman thy servant will stand as a sentence against this prophane babler to witnesse against him be he whom he will He a Minister more fit to make a rayling Rabshakeh or a scoffing Michal Let him therefore in time look well unto it lest with prophane Esau he loose his birth-right and be deprived of his heavenly Fathers blessing As well may he tell us that we are to have no other God but the Minister because the Minister reads the first Commandement as vent this thus concerning the Priest and Clark in their Churching of women DIALOGUE Gent. This is a very strange kinde of giving of God thankes for womens safe deliverance from the great pain and perill of Childe-birth Min. It is indeed and no small griefe to honest women not only because there is no thanks given to God for their safe deliverance from the pain and perill of Child-birth but also because thanksgiving is turned to a Jewish kind of Purification For they must come with a vaile to cover their faces after the Jewish manner signifying thereby that by childe-bearing they were made uncleane and that they were ashamed of their uncleannesse or that they had played the Harlots and were ashamed to shew their faces and Juda thought that Thamar was an Harlot because her face was covered with a vaile Gen. 33.14.15 It is a great offence not only to honest women but also to every true Christian man to see his wife goe to the Church like a Jew or like an Harlot ANSWER You have a fine faculty in moulding of matters I see and in fashioning of things according as your selfe thinks good to fancy One while you say it is a strange giving of thanks another while it is no giving of thanks and then again it is a giving of thanks but turned to a Jewish kind of Purification You would make a pretty Proteus I perceive But I will reprove thee and set before thee the things that thou hast done Thou hast let thy mouth speak wickednesse and with thy tongue thou hast set forth deceit according to that of the Psalmist with which you dallied but even now Can I tell how to say otherwise Is here no giving of thanks I marvaile that you blush not nor be ashamed to wrest things contrary to the evidence of open sight I have lifted up mine eyes unto the hills from whence commeth my helpe words sure of thankfulnesse Nay the whole Psalme is an Hymne of Prayse and thanksgiving fitly chosen for such a purpose 2 Chr. 29,30 Moreover Hezekiah the King and the Princes commanded the Levites to sing praise unto the Lord with the words of David and of Asaph the Seer and they sang prayses with gladnesse and they bowed their â—eads and worshipped 2 Chro 29.30 The Church then you see goes on in a right way and repaires to a worthy store-house for a fitting form But I perceive your drift as if you aymed like T. C. your great Goliah to have no publike thanks in such a case as this because it comes too neer the Jewish kinde of Purification Wherefore I shall answer in more particular and tell you that although that Law as concerning the Ceremony be ceased yet the righteousnesse thereof is to be fulfilled in those which walk not after the flesh but after the spirit Rom. 8.4 For in all things we are commanded to give thanks 1 Thess 5.18 And must offer the Sacrifice of prayse unto God Heb. 13.15 And if for other benefits thanks and praise be due then for this preservation which in Melancthons phrase is Magnum miraculum a great miracle insomuch that if the Childe when he comes to know it will not stick to say with David Psal 139.13 I will give thanks to thee for I am fearfully and wonderfully made then may the Mother not refuse who
somewhat worse them whom in all parts it doth not satisfie And let me say that heretofore Rogations or Letanies were the very strength stay and comfort of Gods Church In the dayes of Mamercus bishop of Vienna the people seeing how heaven threatned their City with imminent ruine began to fly away from it but their Bishop staying still and some others with him exhorted such as remained to use those vertuous and holy means wherewith others in the like case have prevailed with God Whereupon they fly to the Rogations or Letanies formerly used the Bishop perfects them in what he thâ—ught meet and addes unto them what the present necessity required Their good successe was not only a thing known but an encouragement to others who being afflicted with famine and besieged by their enemies took the same course as in particular is storied of Sidoneus the Bishop of Arverna Nor doe we but find by daily experience that those calamities may be neerest at hand and readiest to break in suddainly upon us which we in regard of times or circumstances may imagine to be farthest off as judicious Hooker speaketh Or if they doe not indeed approach yet such miseries as being present all men are apt to bewaile with tears the wise saith he should rather by their prayers prevent Or if finally we for our selves had a priviledge of immunity doth not true Christian charity require that whatsoever any part of the world yea any one of all our brethren doth either suffer or feare the same we account as our own burthen The Letany saith one is a common treasure house of all good devotion It may be said of the Church in composing that exquisite prayer as it was of Origen writing upon the Canticles In caeteris alios omnes vicit in hoc seipsum In other parts of our Liturgy she surpasseth all others but in this her self Some mislike the Letany for that it hath a petition for all men and all people and yet the precept in Gods word is that supplications prayers intercessions and giving of thanks be made for all men 1 Timothy 2.1 Others are angry that we should pray From suddain death good Lord deliver us And I wonder much at this let men of understanding tell me and let a wise man hearken unto me whether it be not better to leave this world with a kinde of treatable dissolution then to be snatcht away as in a moment Xenophon and Plato were Ethnicks and strangers from the common wealth of Israel yet it was no little beauty to their stories to tell us how leasurely Cyrus in the one and Socrates in the other departed hence Absolon had a suddain death and how did David therefore exceed in lamentation Elibu speaks of some which dy in a moment we may therefore beg of God to depart as Jacob Moses Joshua David who had not only respit to end their own lives in peace but also to adde comforts and blessings to those about them But I hasten and come again to the Dialogue DIALOGUE Min. Throughout the whole Letany they doe interrupt him by mingling their prayers with his ANSWER Here still you urge us with interruptions but I have already shewed the weaknesse of this cavill in my former answers and should be glad to see you studdy quietnesse and not to think your selfe wiser then the Church of God in all ages with whom these eager devotions were better esteemed And as Fishes were never accepted for Sacrifices so neither would those Christians be as mute as Fishes in their Congregations DIALOGUE Min. They doe also without any warrant from God but from Pope Hormisda interrupt the Minister when he readeth the Psalmes by taking every other verse out of his mouth to reade it for him with a loud hackering and confused noise especially in Country Churches where the people cannot read well The Minister when he readeth or preacheth Gods word is the mouth of God speaking to the people therefore they ought to be silent and to hearken with reverence ANSWER The Psalter as you know contains the whole book of Psalms they were made by severall men someby Moses some by Solomon some by Asaph and the most by David and not seldome composed upon speciall occasions for the most part either to pray unto God or to praise him in such a set form of words David inscribes many of them to sundry Musitians had them used in the service of God were then and have been since otherwise used in the Lords service then the other Scriptures their tittles shew it and the practise of the Church both among the Jews and the Christians evidently declare it This therefore takes away the edge of your argument by which you endeavour to limit them altogether to the mouth of the Minister And whereas you would beare the world in hand that Hormisda was the man that first appointed them to be used interchangeably See St. Aug. confess lib. 10. cap. 33. you are greatly out from the truth of the story as even your own T. C. will witnesse against you Pantaleon brings testimony that this which you mention was done by Celestine Pantal. in Chronol who was Bishop of Rome about an hundred years before Hormisda But Polydore Virgil goes higher and saith Polyd. Virg. de invent rerum lib 6 cap. 2. That the division of Davids Psalter into seven parts called Nocturnes according to the seven dayes of the week was the work of Hierom at the request of Damasus who was then the Bishop of Rome Damasus also saith the same author instituted that the Psalms should be sung and said by course Thus also Platina Plat. in vitae Damasi but some again say as Polydore noteth that this was first devised by Ignatius Thus also Socrates who maketh Ignatius the Bishop of Antioch in Syria Hist Eccl. cap. 8. the first beginner thereof even under the Apostles themselves he suffered Martyrdome in the daies of the Emperour Trajan unto whom it was related by his own vice-gerent concerning the Christians of Pontus and Bithinya that the onely crime he knew of them was they used to meet together at a certain day and to praise Christ with Hymns as a God secum invicem one to another amongst themselves secund Nor doth this but agree most aptly to the Apostles exhortation in Eph. 5.19 Speak to your selves saith he In Psalms and Hymns and spirituall Songs See also Exod. 15.1 compared with verse 21. and again look into Esay 6.3 DIALOGUE Min. When they read the eighteenth nineteenth and twentieth verses of the fifty Psalm they are likened by some to women scoulding and accusing one another The Clark and people doe begin to scould with and to accuse the Minister saying When thou sawest a thiefe thou consentest unto him and hast been partaker with adulterers Then the Priest accuseth the Clark saying Thou hast let thy tongue speake wickednesse and with thy tongue thou hast set forth deceit Then the Clark and people
up his countenance upon thee and give thee peace And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel and I will blesse them All which is still done by the Ministers of the Gospell they blesse they teach they instruct they rebuke they reprove they exhort they consecrate the Bread and Wine to holy uses they offer up the Prayers of the people nay more they do as it were offer Christ in a Mystery and sacrifice him objectively by way of commemoration In which we differ farre from the Church of Rome for the Romish Church professeth the Body and Blood of Christ to be the proper subject we nay but the proper object of our Celebration We take then a Priest and Presbiter now to be all one and list not to quarrell any longer about the word For should we descend to Grammer we are told as much as comes fully home namely that the word Priest hath his right place in him whose meer function and charge is the service of God Whereunto let me only adde that which I find in Bishop Jewell We know saith he that the Priest or Minister of the Church of God is divided from the rest of his brethren as was the tribe of Levi from the children of Israel and hath a speciall office over the people Neither may any man force himself into that office without lawfull calling But as touching the inward Priest-hood and the exercise of the soule we say even as Saint Peter and Saint John and Tertullian have said in this sence every faithfull Christian man is a Priest and offereth to God Spirituall Sacrifices In this only sence I say and none otherwise Thus he granting that there is a Priest-hood internall and a Priest-hood externall For saith he there is not one of us that ever taught otherwise See this in his Defence of the Apology for the Church of England Part 2. pag. 130. DIALOGUE Gent. What do you think of the Priest and Clark when they do Church a woman Min. I will not tell you what I think but I will tell you what some doe say Gent. What do they say Min. They say that the Priest is like a witch Gent. Why doe they say that the Priest is like to a witch Min. Because he doth as a witch doth when she saith the Lords Prayer Gent. What doth a witch when she saith the Lords Prayer Min. She leaves out these words but deliver us from evill and so doth the Priest when he doth Church a woman Gent. Why will not a witch say these words Min. Because the Devill will not let her till she hath bewitched so many as he would have her For by the evill that is prayed against in that petition is meant the Devill and the sinne whereunto he tempteth therefore the Devill will not have her to say these words because when she saith them she prayeth that God will deliver her from him and the witchery whereunto he tempteth her ANSWER This is a cavill scarce worth the answering for it is most certain that the evill which you speak of is prayed against The most therefore which you could urge fairely is no more but this viz. That the order in saying that Prayer had been better without an answer interposed then by the interposing of one in which I think you should have met with few or none to quarrell you But to speak so basely and in such unbeseeming manner as you have done serves as a figne to shew with what a malignant spirit you wrote these things who do rather play the witch your selfe by speaking perverse words to draw away disciples after you then justly accuse the Priest in these your vain janglings But it is as Saint Paul gave notice a great while since when he called the Elders of Ephesus together as we read in the twentieth chapter of the Acts of the Apostles at the 30 verse DIALOGUE Min. The Priest doth also skip over the conclusion of the Lords Prayer for thine is the kingdome power and glory and therein also they say that he is like to a witch when she doth say the Creed for when she saith the second Article And in Jesus Christ his onely sonne she skips over these words Our Lord and so doth the Priest slip over the conclusion of the Lords Prayer Gent. Saint Luke leaves it out and therefore the Priest may leave them out Luk. 11.4 Min. It followeth not that therefore the Minister may leave them out for Saint Luke did not write any thing of himselfe but what the holy Ghost would have him to write Gent. Why would not the holy Ghost have him to write them Min. Because it was sufficient that Saint Mathew had writ them Math. 6.13 ANSWER Here you shew us still more of your skill in witchery and tell us of the Priests skipping over the conclusion of the Lords Prayer And indeed if there were not some President for it in Scripture it might not be But there is president for it in Luke 11.4 although you be pleased to passe it over with a non sequitur And yet for all that it may follow well enough For whereas it seemed good to the holy Ghost in one Evangelist to adde the Doxologie and in another to omit it the Church is blamelesse and may indifferently follow either the one or the other seeing both of them wrote by inspiration For who knows except you who know any thing whether it were the purpose of the holy Ghost to have Saint Luke omit it because Saint Matthew had recorded it and not rather to shew that it was a compleat Prayer at the end of the petitions although the reason of the petitions be not mentioned where the Doxology is omitted It is well then to repeat those words of the conclusion and not ill although they be not alwaies mentioned for our Church in so doing hath the pattern not only of all the Latine and some of the Greek Fathers but even of Saint Luke himself Quando dicimus libera nos à malo nihil remanet quod ultra adhuc debeat postulari as saith Saint Cyprian Cypr. de Orat. Dominic that is When we say Deliver from evill there remains nothing more to be prayed for DIALOGUE Gent. Some doe think because Saint Mark and Saint John doe make no mention of the Lords Prayer that therefore the Minister may omit the reading of it and that because the Evangelists and the Apostles did not use to say it as a Prayer therefore none neither Minister nor people ought to use it as a Prayer Min. The truth is that our Saviour Christ did make it for all Christians to use as a prayer and also for a pattern to pray by Gent. Where doe you finde that our Saviour Christ would have it used as a Prayer Min. In the 11 chapter of the Gospell written by Saint Luke and the second verse where it is written that our Saviour said When you pray say Our Father which c. Gent. Where doe
any receive his mark on the forehead and on the hand he shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God therefore some do keep their children unbaptized rather then have them marked with the mark of the beast ANSWER By that figne made on our foreheads is intented that we should be put in remembrance of that Christian warfare which every one baptized is to enter into and to continue in unto the end if he will be saved See Rom. 8.13 1 Tim. 6.1 Revel 2.10,11 chap. 21.7,8 So that we are not signed with the signe of the crosse in token of any superstitious matter but of a matter most necessary For though we walk in the flesh we do not warre after the flesh but are commanded to fight the good fight of Faith to endure hardnesse as a good souldier of Jesus Christ to be strong in the Lord and in power of his might to put on the whole armour of God whereby we may be able to stand against the wiles of the Devill and are taught not to glory save in the crosse of our Lord Jesus Christ by whom the world is crucified unto us and we unto the world nor is it but written that Michael and his Angels fight against the Dragon and his Angels Revel 12.7 And therefore we are to acquit our selves like men and must confesse the Faith of Christ crucified and must take unto us the whole armour of God whereby we may be able to withstand in the evill day and having done all to stand Eph. 6.13 Galat. 6.14 1 Tim. 6.12 2 Tim. 2.3 c. Now all these are main Christian duties and who so unfainedly endeavoureth to keep them needs not in any wise be offended at the signe used to put him in minde of them but will rather thank God that he is born in such a Church where not only the true Christian life is taught by tongue and pen but is also signified by some ceremony for ones more remembrance of the same The Israelites had their fringes on the borders of their garments with a ribban of blew that looking thereupon they might remember all the Commandements of the Lord Num. 15.38,39 Nor hath the Christian Church but power to appoint Ceremonies though the particulars be not as directly specified as was that to them of Israel for which we have a text in 1 Cor. 14.40 Shee therefore useth this godly Ceremony of signing with the signe of the Crosse for a good signification and transgresseth not no more then those in the daies of Joshua who built an Altar for which they had no command in the Law of Moses in regard they did it as do we for a good signification See Josh 22.22 And whereas you tell us of the mark of the Beast The mark of the Beast is surely one thing and the signe of the Crosse another They are threatned with damnation which receive the mark of the Beast But is an Infant therefore damned because he reciveth at anothers hand the sign of the Crosse upon his forehead and is no agent in it himself nor able to know either what 's done or threatned You shew your selfe a proper Divine I promise you and would broach such an inequality in the wayes of God as is utterly condemned in his holy word The soule saith the Lord that sinneth it shall dy the Sonne shall not bear the iniquity of the Father neither shall the Father bear the iniquity of the Sonne the righteousnesse of the righteous shall be upon him and the wickednesse of the wicked shall be upon him Ezek. 18.20 which if it make not against you let your self be judge Besides as we are free enough from receiving any mark on the hand at Confirmation so are we as able to shew that the signe of the Crosse was in use before the Beast that should impose it was born yea even whilest the Bishops of Rome were glorious Martyrs and the Church of God under the troubles of the persecuting Emperours witnesse those proofs which are brought out of Tertullian Origen and Cyprian by the learned to shew that they used it In immortali lavacro in the immortall laver See Tertull. lib. de resur Carnis Cypr. Epist 56. Jeu lib. 4. Epist 6. lib. de Lapsis sub init lib. ad Demetrianum In the first of which quotations out of Cyprian the said Father councelleth that the forehead be garded that thereby the signe of God may be kept in safety and in the second he speaks of the same signe upon the forehead and in the third he saith that by this Sacrament viz. Baptisme and signe we are enrolled Nor doth Bishop Jewell but grant that the signe of the Crosse among the Christians was had in great regard Neither when the Papists charge us with Novelties can you better know how to answer their objection then truly to tell them that their abuses are new but the things which they abused we retain in their primitive use and forsake only the novell corruption and for as much as this Ceremony was abused as is confessed in time of Popery it doth plainly imply that it was well used before Popery as King James of blessed memory hath very worthily affirmed in the conference holden at Hampton Court DIALOGUE Gent. What fault do they finde with the Prayers that are made at the administration of Baptisme Min. They finde fault with the Popish errors that are in them as in the first Prayer before Baptisme it is written that God hath sanctified the flood Jordan and all other waters to the my stycall washing away of sinne The truth is that there is no mysticall washing away of sin in water but a true and reall washing away of sin in the blood of Christ 1 Joh. 1.7 The water in Baptisme doth but signifie that as foul things are washed and made clean in water so the souls of the Elect defiled with sin are made clean in the blood of Christ 1 Joh. 1.7 ANSWER You come now to finde fault with the Prayers that are made at the adminstration of baptisme and to pick some holes in their popish coats for in your esteem they want not their popish errors But shall I tell you Saint Austin speaks in the same language that you mention to be in the first Prayer before baptisme else he had never said in his 29 Sermon Detempore That Christ in the waters of Jordan consecrated the waters for the reparation of humane kinde under baptisme And a little after Et quia saith he per universum mundum sacramentum Baptismi humano generi opus erat omnibus aquis benedictionem dedit quando in Jordanis alveum unica ac singulari piet ate descendit Tunc enim Christum Dominum non tam lavit undo quam lota est That is And because saith he the Sacrament of Baptisme was needfull for mankinde throughout the whole world he gave a blessing to all waters when in his only and fingular piety he descended into the river
are those words of our Saviour Christ to be understood in Luk. 14.26 where he saith that If any man come to me and hate not his Father and Mother c. he cannot be my Disciple Thus our Saviour Now we know that a man is bound to honour his Father and Mother to love them and not to hate them and yet he that shall love either Father or Mother more then Christ is not worthy of Christ Matth. 10.37 And thus doth one place explain another But howsoever the meaning be that what you mention is not to be referred precisely to the particular persons of Jacob and Esau whereupon you loose that you strive for is plain enough First because Gods Oracle to Rebecca was concerning two Nations Gen. 25.23 where the words be these And the Lord said unto her two Nations are in thy womb and two manner of peâ—ple shall be separated from thy bowels and the one people shall be stronger then the other people and the elder shall serve the younger Duae gentes nen in seipsis sed in suis patribus secundum Prophetiam quoque ipsius Isaac quando Minorom pro Majore benedixit And secondly because the Prophet Malachy declares the same nay he shews the accomplishment thereof in the Israelites and Edomites the one whereof were discended of Jacob the other of Esau Malach. chap. 1. The Paraphrase whereof is as followeth Ecce populus Israeliticus ex Jacobo oriundus populus iste est quem singulariter dilexit Deus quippe cui ex merâ—… dilectiâ—…e gratia terram promâ—ssam melle lacte fluentem Abrahamo Isaaco olim promissam velut haereditatem possidendam dedit Populus verò Edomeus ex Esau progenitus populus iste est quem Deus amore isto singulari complecti favore tam prolixo adficere noluit quippe cui horrida inculta loea montes Seir vastos saxosis desertosque cum fertili ista terra promissa miniâ—… conserendos habitandos dedit ut servilis borum filialis istorum conditio juxta praegressum de illorum capitibus or aculum clare elucesceret And was it not that out of both these Saint Paul cited that which you have aymed at and in Saint Pauls Epistles are some things hard to be understood as Saint Peter tels us 2 Pet. 3.16 Wherefore let me advise you not to be rash in citing from thence things hard to be understood nor come with things obscure against what is elsewhere plain and manifest for then you will neither benefit your self nor truly instruct others The elder shall serve the younger understand that not of the persons of Esau and Jacob for Esau never served Jacob but of the two * Major populus serviet Minori id est Primogenitus populus haeres non trit terrae Canaan sed secundogenitus Propositum enim Dei erat vocare semen quos quales vult Nations which were to come of them as the words of God declare which said not to Rebecca Two men but two Nations are in thy womb And then whereas the Apostle presently subjoyneth Jacob have I loved but Esau have I hated it is not to be taken as if it were spoken before the children were born as was the former Oracle for this was said many ages after by the Prophet Malachy and spoken likewise not of two men but of two people as in the said Prophet is apparent Besides the very phrase of speech declareth that this was not as the other spoken before the Children were born for then it had not been in the Preterperfect but in the Future tense So that all the reference which this can have unto the former is but to shew how Gods purpose took effect in preferring the Nations which came of Jacob before the people which came of Esau which he terms love and hatred and is found to be so in the sence already mentioned But whereto serve those examples if they be not to shew that God irrespectively decreed to save the persons of some of them in particular and absolutely in particular according to the Councell of his will to damn the others Verily he that shall read the Scriptures and find it * Ezek. 18 32. ch 33.11 1 Tim 2.4 2 Pet 3.9 written that God would not the death of him that dyech would have all to be saved and is not willing that any one should perish will scarce be perswaded that God hath absolutely decreed any mans damnation I answer therefore Gods love to mankinde is such that not only is the promise of Grace Universall but also free and taken by Faith alone insomuch that the Apostle to the Romans plainly excludes all prerogative of the flesh and merit of workes and concludes that every one who believes shall not be ashamed For there is no difference between the Jew and the Gentile For he that is Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him And hereto serve those famous Types and Heads of Nations which he propoundeth when he brings in the sonnes of Abraham and of Isaac already mentioned which types as Hemmingius speaketh Hemming Syntagm capit De Praedestinat sect 32. are to be fitted after this manner viz. that in certain commodities belonging to this life all which are born of the seed of Abraham and Isaac are not reckoned for their sonnes Much lesse in things spirituall are they accounted as sons who draw their originall from those holy Fathers Wherefore even as in profits and priviledges belonging to this life they only are reputed the sonnes of whom the holy Patriarchs had the promises So in things Spirituall they only are to be reckoned as sons of Abraham whose faith is in the free promise and not those who exult and swell by reason of the Prerogative of the flesh as did the carnall Jews whose rejection he sheweth to be just notwithstanding they could say we have Abraham to our Father * Similiter nunc propositum hoc Dei manet quo Judaeos legem praefracte sectari volentes licet illi praeferri debere videantur Gentilibus semen vocare non vult sed omnes solos eos sive Judaei sunt qui Evangelio filii ejus credunt et si hi illis deteriores indigniores esse videantur DIALOGUE Gent. This errour you say is in the Rubrick what is in the Chatechisme Min. In the Catechism it is affirmed that Christ hath redeemed all Mankind The truth is that Christ came into the world not to redeem all Mankind but the Elect only therefore the Evangelist Saint Luke setting forth the Genealogy of Christ beginneth from Joseph and ascendeth to Adam and from Adam doth descend to Sheth who was the first of Elect that was born after the death of Abel and maketh no mention of Cain nor of any of his posterity And Saint Matthew beginning from Abraham and from Abraham descendeth to Isaac and from Isaac to Jacob and maketh no mention of Ishmael nor of Esau nor of any that
came of them Also our Saviour Christ saith that he gave his life a ransome for many Matth. 20.28 and that his blood was shed for many Matth. 26.28 He doth not say that his blood was shed for all mankind but for many that is for the Elect only who are many though but few in comparison of the multitude that are Reprobates ANSWER When our Church teacheth her Children to say I believe in God the sonne who hath redeemed me and all mankinde she hath respect to the ample latitude of the merit of Redemption wrought by Jesus Christ which is such and so large as that it extends it selfe to all it excludes none but hath satisfied Justice and made a way for all men to attain unto mercy For if God be not willing that any one should perish as Saint Peter speaketh 2 Pet. 2.9 but that all men should be saved as Saint Paul to Timothy declareth 1 Tim. 2.4 then surely the Son of God who came to seek and to save that which was lost and to do the will of his Father laid down his life in common for all that thereby a way might be made for all to attain unto mercy Christ indeed gave his life for his sheep and laid it down for his friends but not for them only For He is the propitiation for our sinnes and not for ours only but for the sins of the whole world 1 Joh. 2.2 And well might he say he gave his life a ransome for many and that his blood was shed for many who shed his blood for all and gave himselfe a ransome for all 1 Tim. 2.6 Nor do we but read that Judas was one of them to whom Christ said My blood is shed for you Luk. 22.20 and yet Judas was a Reprobate To which agreeth that of Saint Peter concerning some who should bring in privily damnable Heresies even denying the Lord that bought them 2 Pet. 2.1 And again saith another scripture Of how much sorer punishment shall he be thought worthy who hath trodden under foot the Son of God and hath counted the blood of the Covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing and hath done despite to the spirit of Grace Hebr. 10.29 And in the second chapter of the same Epistle the Apostle saith expresly Heb. 2.9 But we see Jesus who was made a little lower then the Angels for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honour that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man And again The Lord saith the Prophet hath laid on him the iniquity of us all Esa 53.6 And I saith Christ if I be lifted up from the Earth will draw all men unto me Joh. 12.32 And in the 2 Corinth 5.14 Christ dyed for all And in Tit. 2.11 The grace of God that bringeth Salvation hath appeared to all men And in Rom. 5.18 As by the offence of one judgement came upon all men to condemnation even so by the righteousnesse of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life as our common translation reads it And will you notwithstanding all this deny that the price paid by Christ was not paid for all nor made for all The truth is that it hath not been beneficiall to all and in that respect our Saviours words are manifest that he shed his blood for many And so the Apostle likewise meaneth expresly declaring that we trust in the living God who is she Saviour of all men specially of those that beleeve 1 Tim. 4.10 you see then that God excludes none but those that exclude themselves by unbeliefe For though Christ hath not gained all yet neverthelesse he hath dyed for all as Chrysost speaketh Chrysost in Rom. 14. He hath done that which was his part to do if therefore others will not doe that which is theirs they must notwithstanding Christs death be damned Ideo passus est ut tolleret peecatum Mundi Si quis autem in Christum non credit generali beneficio ipse se frodat ut siquis clausis fenestris radios solis excludat saith Saint Ambrose Ambr. Serm. 8. in Psal 118. That is Christ therefore suffered that he might take away the sinne of the world But if any one believe not in Christ he defrauds himself of that generall benefit as any one by having his windows shut excludes the light of the Sunne In medio Temple misericordia est non in angulo aut diversorio In communi posita est offertur omnibus nemo illius expers nisi qui renuit as saith Saint Bernard Bern. Serm. in purif pag. 101. which is as if he should say Although Christs merits are common to all and that he keeps open house to all commers yet those only have full benefit by them that lay hold upon him God loved the World indeed when he gave his only begotten sonne howbeit they only shall not perish but have life everlasting who believe on him Joh. 3.16 So then that Christs precious blood hath greater efficacy or force in some then in others is not the fault of him who did so well impart it but of them who do so ill imploy it And so all this while no errour in our Common Catechisme DIALOGUE Min. It is also affirmed in the Catechisme that we are made the Children of God in Baptisme The truth is that whosoever is not a childe of God before he be baptized shall never be a childe of God because all that are the children of God were before the world was made the children of God by virtue of Gods eternall decree of Election ANSWER This is answered before and therefore to avoid prolixity and repetition I shall justly passe it over DIALOGUE Min. It also affirmeth that there are two Sacraments generally as necessary to salvation intimating that the Sacraments are necessary to salvation so as if a childe dye before he be baptized be shall be damned which is the cause that Midwives do take upon them to Baptize Intimating also that there are more Sacraments then two therefore it is written in the Rubrick * You would say after if you cared to relate things aright before the Communion that every Parishioner shall communicate thrice in the year and also receive the Sacraments meaning the five Popish Sacraments For there are none other ANSWER We teach indeed that Christ hath ordained in his Church two Sacraments only as generally necessary to Salvation viz. Baptisme and the Supper of the Lord and will you be he that shall blame us for it These two are said by the Ancients to flow out of Christs side when hanging upon the Crosse for us the souldier with his speare let out from thence Water and Blood Joh. 19.34 It is therefore said that This is he that came by Water and Blood even Jesus Christ not by Water only but by Water and Blood 1 Joh. 5.6 And will you be he which shall not grant these two legitimate and true
born Sacraments to be generally necessary to Salvation Why then are they not left either to be used or not to be used ad placitum as every one pleaseth The Scripture I am sure grants no such freedome for generally and in ordinary they are necessary and so commanded If therefore the Spirit doe convey grace to any without the use of the Sacraments this is to be accounted extraordinary no man in common is to rely upon it but to use the ordinary meanes which Christ hath appointed For what is sometimes done ex parte Dei on Gods part in cases not of wilfull neglect or contempt but in cases of desire when the want proceeds from inevitable necessity is not to be reckoned ex parte nostra or by us enough at other times to rest upon Understand then this phrase generally necessary to be as much as commonly and in ordinary And as for the morenesse or super-duality of the Sacraments which you say is here intimated we answer that in a large signification there may be not only seven but many Sacraments but strictly and properly no more then these only two and true Sacraments If our Church teach otherwise then speak and spare not till then be silent and spare your breath to coole your broath for there it may be of more use then it can be here especially if you could but remember what is delivered in that Homily which declareth that Common Prayer and Sacraments ought to be administred in a known tongue This is all that I shall need to say your scruple is cleared farre enough DIALOGUE Min. It affirmeth also that Godfathers and Godmothers doe promise and vow three things first that the Infant shall forsake the Devill and all his works the pomps and vanities of the wicked world and all the sinfull lusts of the flesh Secondly that he shall beleeve all the Articles of the Christian Faith Thirdly that he shall keep Gods holy will and commandements and walk in the same all the dayes of his life which no man is able to doe of himself ANSWER Here is nothing more then what we have had before excepting a word or two about the keeping of Gods commandements which you say no man is able to doe of himselfe And doth not the very Catechism also teach the same in the question next before the Lords Prayer you are blinde sure else you might have seen it Let me therefore intreat you to look better about you and although you cannot see wood for trees be not good Sir angry at it DIALOGUE Min. The truth is thatt the Godfathers and Godmothers doe neither promise nor vow that the infant shall doe these things Gent. What then do they Min. They do nothing but counterfeit the Infants voyce as if he were a conjured Ghost within every one of them speaking and saying that he doth all these things ANSWER This of the conjured Ghost pleaseth you sure very mightily as well as that other of the witch which you have mentioned more then once but harp on The string which you harp so much upon will break at last and helpe but little although for the present it may be used by the Minstrels of your own sect to make the simple dance DIALOGUE Gent. Are there any other things that do offend and discourage the people from comming into the Church till service be all read Min. Yes Gent. What are they Min. They are the perverting of the meaning of the holy Ghost in many places of the Psalmes Epistles and Gospels by putting in and leaving out of words and also of the meaning of our Saviour Christ in many places of the Revelation Gent. Wherein is the meaning of the holy Ghost perverted by putting in and leaving out of Words Min. In the Psalm 106.30 Phineas prayed are put in for Phineas executed judgement Psal 105.28 Not obedient are put in for not disobedient Psal 125.3 these words The rod of the ungodly commeth not on the lot of the righteous are put in for resteth not on the lot of the righteous In the Epistle on * You are deceived it is in the Epistle on the Munday before Easter munday in Easter week these words Israel remembred are put in for he that is God remembred To make mention of all the places in the Psalmes Epistles and Gospels would be too tedious ANRWER I verily think that if what you here mention had been a thing of moment it had been amended when it was urged in the Conference at Hampton Court where so judicious a King as our late King James of blessed memory heard all the grievances which then were brought among the which this in particular was one And verily this is certain that words in the Originall do many times admit of a diverse and doubtfull reading and may indifferently be taken either the one way or the other as is easie to instance even in one of those Scriptures which you have mentioned For whereas you say Phineas prayed are put in for Phineas executed judgement I answer the originall word in that very text hath diverse significations and is therefore translated diversly for in the Septuagint it is Phineas did propitiate or pacifie God in the Chalde he prayed And in later ones it is translated He executed judgement And as For the next if it cannot be answered with the like facility then that which followeth may for whereas the words are barely turned The rod of the ungodly commeth not on the lot of the righteous you can but open the meaning and say That it commeth not so as to rest or abide upon it and yet commeth neverthelesse After this you tell us of another pervertion in the Epistle on Munday in Easter week where these words Israel remembred are put in for He that is God remembred But shall I tell you there is no such thing at all in that Epistle you doe but dream sure or take your wares upon trust it had been else in the Epistle on the Munday before Easter where we read indeed thus Yet remembred Israel the old times of Moses which as you say should be He that is God remembred This is your glosse and yet the Geneva noteth that the word Hee hath relation to the people of Israel who being afflicted called to remembrance Gods benefits which he had bestowed upon their Fathers in times past which is also the way that is taken in our translation used in the Service-book both in this and in some such other passages as are either doubtfull or stand in need of explanation which are rather rendredin a mean between the liberty of paraphrasts literall rigor of an obscure translation then otherwise and hath ever been judged the fittest for publike audience witnesse the practise of all Nations Greeks Latines Persians Syrians Aethtopians Arabians as Hooker noteth And so also for that other of not obedient of not disobedient it is much after the same manner translated as S. Mathew once translated a place out
Scriptures they give us notice of some who in the latter daies should perish in the gainsaying of Corah as well as of some who should be led with the errour of Balaam for reward See S. Judes Epist vers 11. Look well about you and take heed how you strike an Angel else may chance to stand against you whilest you ride on the beast and be as loath to loose the rewards of your good Masters and Dames as was Balaam to loose the rewards of the King of Moab For the Pope may be Antichrist though Bishops be upheld they were never limbs of that man of Sinne as Bishops but as Popish whilest they swore subjection unto him whilest they defended him whilest they worshipped him above all that is called God and extorted this homage from others But shall they therefore which defie him resist trample upon him spend their lives and labours in opposing of him be necessarily still in the same condition because they are Bishops a foolish argument and he were a senceles man that should subscribe it But shall I tell you there were many Kings and Princes that gave their strength and power to the Beast but are now revolted from him are they not therefore Kings and Princes still Yes sure their calling is not lost they are Kings and Princes still although not Antichristian Kings and Princes England was once termed the Popes Asse but hath long since shaked off that yoak and abolished the Popes tyranny is it not therefore England still Or to speak of what was late The Princes Peers and Magistrates of England in Queen Maries daies were shoulders and armes of Antichrist their calling is still the same and must still be retained notwithstanding then they went the wrong way in it The like is to be said of Bishops in regard of their order which in it selfe is as firm strong and sound as ever notwithstanding what you or any man else may urge to the contrary If you were not a man of faction but would deale fairly in this busines you should not plead for parity or goe about to destroy the government of Gods Church by Bishops but labour to retain the Primitive form which consistteth not in the abolishing of Bishops and striving to make all Pastours equall but in the restoring of Presbyteries by joyning with the Bishops deserving honest and able * See for this Mr. Thorndikes book of the primitive Government of Churches Presbyters not Lay-elders but learned Ministers In a word there is one thing more which before I goe further must be rememhred For you tell us that in the latter end of Queene Elizabeths raigne when she began to be sickly and not like to live long then Doctour Bancroft Lord Bishop of London knowing that King James was to succeed her and fearing that his Majesty would reforme things amisse in the publike worship and service of God and in the Government of the Church did License a Booke written by a Jesuite that he kept in his house wherein it was written that it was in the Popes power as a gift appropriate to Saint Peters chaire to depose the Kings of England and to give authority to the People to elect choose and set up another Whereto I answer that in this you doe but cast durt in the face of the dead For that which you here mention is but what was objected in the Conference at Hampton Court by Doctour Reynolds and openly proved then in presence of his Majesty which you speak of to be but a false aspersion by which the Bishop was injured and standered Wherefore you doe ill to revive it now for the incensing of the people to the more malice who are already too eager to inveigh against Bishops For I verily thinke that never since the times of Christ and his Apostles were Bishops in such hatred nor had in such contempt as now I wonder that they goe not about likewise to cry down a standing Ministrie for personall offenders may as well countenance the abolishing of the one as of the other And indeed it is in a manner come even to that too amongst some furious and fanaticke spitits But the God of Heaven put a right end to these busie stirrs lest all at the last be brought to ruine Let the fiercenesse of those Opposites who cry Downe with them downe with them even to the ground turn to thy praise ô blessed Lord yea the fiercenesse of them who are thus furious doe thou restrain and bring honour to thy name out of this dishonour and good to thy Church out of this evill It is thine owne cause ô God arise therefore and defend it in spight of all that shall oppose it And thus I am come almost to the end of your dowty Dialogue a little more will bring me to it DIALOGUE Gent. There was a little Booke written of late and dedicated to the Mouse of Parliament that had most of these things in it that you have spoken of concerning the Service-booke and the Bishops Min. There was so but the Authour thereof is much grieved every time that he doth thinke upon it because it was dispersed without his consent and printed false by putting in and leaving out of words so as it was not fit to be presented to the House of Parliament ANSWER Great pitty sure to see so worthy a worke defaced especially being intended for the view of the high Court of Parliament But grieve not at it though you sometimes chance to thinke upon it for you make amends for all in this most learned and through-paced Dialogue which is instar omnium and a great deale fitter for the Parliament then that little Booke you speake of Aquila non capit Muscas Parliaments meddle with great matters Let little Bookes therefore goe and thinke your selfe better with this great volume of almost twenty leaves in Quarto which the Parliament when it hath nothing else to doe will read and relish as well as it can This is enough to comfort you you may by no meanes desire more except you had written to better purpose DIALOGUE Gent. It made mention of Judgements c. ANSWER Here you come in with a diâ—course out of your little Booke of some fearefull Judgements shewed on Churches by Thunder and Lightning in Service time and you mention chiefly two the one on the Parish Church of Whitcomb in Devonshire upon the 21 day of October 1638. the other on the Parish Church of Anthony in Cornwell upon Whitsunday 1640. when the people were kneeling at the Communion which fell upon those places to shew that God is not pleased but much offended with the publike Worship and Service which is prescribed unto his holy Majesty in our Service-booke Thus saith your Dialogue pag. 32. 35. and 37. But what saith the Apostle O how unsearchable are Gods Judgements and his wayes past finding out And verily we thank God our Service booke is clearely proved to be of another nature then to offend the diyine