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B13698 A dialogue or conference betweene Irenæus and Antimachus, about the rites and ceremonies of the Church of England: by Samuel Gardiner, Doctor of Diuinitie Gardiner, Samuel, b. 1563 or 4. 1605 (1605) STC 11575; ESTC S102819 49,951 71

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when they fulfill their wicked lusts so the simple and vnskilful are of enmis-led in the vain● conceit and imagination of zeale This was the zeale that intoxicated the Iewes of which S. Paul saith They haue the zeale of God but not in iudgement 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not according to knowledge This knowledge like Captaine Ioas should goe in and out before our zeale and lighten the way of our zeale and direct as the pillar of fire that gaue light to the people of Israel in the night season As Iohn Baptist was the fore-runner of Christ so ought knowledge to be the fore-runner of zeale to make readie a way for zeale as Iohn made readie the way to Christ Knowledge is like the starre that led the Easterne Wise-men to Christ Math. 3. that will leade our zeale vnto the truth The spirit of zeale is sampled to fire yet a boll of water is to be cast vpon it somwhat to quallifie the fury of this fire Wherefore as Christ baptized with fire so Iohn the Baptist did baptize with water A great heate is naturally in zeale which by letting in acoole winde and ayre Acts 2. would be moderated wherefore as the Holy-ghost came downe in fire so he came downe in a mightie winde that doth much abate the heate of the fire There is a golden meane as in all other things so in Knowledge in Zeale Rom. 12.3 Exod. 16.18 according to this saying of the Apostle Be wise with sobrietie It was vnlawfull in the Iewes to gather too much or too little Manna wherefore their measure was appointed them and they were stinted in the proportion of it which hath a good application to zeale that it neither may redound or bee defectiue Isaiah was willed to cry Isai 58. and to cry somewhat highly but he was not bidde●●are and to rende his throate and the ayre with his voyce Zeale and that in some height is good but there may too much strength be put to it which will quite marre it Mar. 10.28 It was zeale in the Disciples that wrought with them when they forsooke all to follow Christ and it was good and well esteemed of by Christ And it was zeale that kindled the coales of wrath in the breasts of the Disciples against the Samaritans Luke 9.55 when they would haue plucked fire from heauen to haue consumed them if Christ would haue suffered them but this was preposterous inconsiderate braine-sicke wherefore Christ controled it Iud. 4. As Barak would not goe to warre without Deborah against Sisara so let vs not warre with our zeale without our other companion of knowledge Zeale without knowledge is as Sampson without eyes who could not take hold of the arches of the house it cannot finde out the principall things Vaesoli woe be to him that is alone saith Wisedome so wo be to zeale alone not accompanied with knowledge Zeale and knowledge of God 1. Kings 20. are as the two Lyons that were the supporters of Salomons Throne And he that combineth them and coupleth them together he shall be like Moses in meekenesse and Phineas in feruour Wherefore as wine is delaide by water so is zeale with knowledge As the Pinnesse without a Pilot is in perill of rockes and as the bodie without the eye is in hazzard of falling so zeale without knowledge that is the eye of zeale and ruleth it is in danger of mis carrying For it is not a bare good intention and zeale that must iustifie our good actions but such mature knowledge must leade vs forth to them as we may be able to warrant them The great variance among vs I wot well not for so great causes I feare me is not warrantable When the Lord willed Eliah to stand vppon the mount before the Lord it is saide 1. Kings 19. that a mightie strong winde rent the mountaines and brake the rockes before the Lord but the Lord was not in the winde and after the winde came an earth-quake but the Lord was not in the earth-quake and after the earth-qake came fire but the Lord was not in the fire and after the fire came a still and soft voice and there the Lord vvas In the stormie vvindes and tempests of the Church that offer to shake it in the verie foundation in the earth-quake and fire of our endlesse contentions the Lord is not but he is in the still voyce that seeketh and ensueth the peace of Ierusalem Antun I haue nothing else to say in the cause but I promised to call for your counsell and therefore if you please addresse your selfe to that Iren. My counsell shall be first That you weigh the points in controuersie betweene vs in equall ballances and that you striue not by inuention of argument to hang lumpes of lead to the heeles of them to make them heauier then they are of themselues You may weigh our cause vneuenly on the weights two wayes for in any of these two there may be deceit in all weights First when a thing is weighed ouer hastily Be not therfore too readie rash in iudgement in condemning such things as may well in any free estate be tolerated Secondly when one part of the ballance is heauier then another which is when thou commest aggrauated with preiudicate affections against the setled ceremonies when thou art rather led by thy wil then reason When you haue set these ceremonies vpon the tenters of your inuectiues and grounde the face of them betweene the mill-stones of your fore-stalde affections you shall neuer perswade the wise that either they are of hurtefull nature or otherwise contrarie to the word of God but in ordinary vnderstanding they will be deemed to be indifferent Secondly you are in the next place to be aduised how you wrong other Churches by your bitter sermons against these ceremonies which haue alwaies hetherto entertained them as lawfull and laudable Iob 47. Eliphas was very imperious ouer Iob not considering himselfe The Iewes very notable hypocrites themselues and loose liuers snebbed and snatched vp the Gentiles at their pleasure which said Isai 63.5 Stand apart come not neere to mee for I am belier then thou We are not ignorant how farre the authoritie of the Church may extend and wee willingly confesse that it ought to rule by the Scepter of the word and that it may not any way countermaund that that standeth like Mount Syon that may not be remooued the whole world the Lords building and the heauens the beautifull roofe thereof must perish before any tittle of the word must perish and fall to the ground But of this we are well assured that it hath leaue and libertie to authorize ceremonies that are of mixt kinde and that we are neither to condemne such or vnreuerently to esteeme them I agree with thee that which is not of faith is sinne Rom. 14 2 yet that wee may carry a quiet conscience and haue the testimoniall thereof in our
habite the man was that met them and they answered he was a hayry man and was girded about the reynes with a lether girdle Which was a marke of knowledge enough to the king though they knew not his name It is Elias the Thisbite sayth he So as the Prophet was knowne by his habite it were well that the Lords ministers might be known by their formall attyre It can not be deuised how we should treade awrie in framing our selues to forme of lawe herein seeing no religion is reposed in them and that it is with other externe ceremonies a mixt matter of indifferrent middle nature may adessevel abesse sine interitu subiects And as S. Paul sayth Let no man iudge you of meate or drinke or in respect of an holy day or of the new moone or of the sabbaoth daies so we may say let no man iudge vs of apparell Col. 2. For as meat so rayment commendeth vs not to god The superstition in this ceremonie is among the desidious and resty Cloisterers the mopish monks to whom it is great religion to bee buried in a Cowle or monastichall habit Antimachus You haue said in the matter of the garments enough and I hold them tollerable But that which stabbeth my conscience is the crosse in Baptisme And that is the hooke I can not swallow 1. because it is a dangerous addition to the institution of the sacrament 2. there is no warrant in the worde of god for it 3. and no one thing so much as that hath bin superstitiously abused 4. and there is no vse of it Irenaeus All your reasons by your leaue are loose and we will prooue them so to be 1. If your first supposall were true you had said enough For the viall of the Lords curse is powred vpon them Reuel 22. that shall adde or withdraw from his booke he shall be sure to be blotted out of the booke of life and to haue no part in the holy city Be this formidable presumption therefore far from euery Christian sure we are it concerneth not our church For the institution of baptisme is performed by vs as Christ commaunded and no otherwise The forme thereof is finished the sacrament absolued and the child absolutely Christianized before it is signed Your second argument wherby you would conclude it to be vnlawfull because the word of God hath not warranted it is not so warrantable Our consciences are satisfied in this action because the word standeth not against vs. I doubt not that it is lawfull for the chiefe magistrate to giue lawes and Canons for the church or ciuil state though they concur not so absolutely with the word of god so as they no way be repugnant vnto it The Lord hath put the sword into the magistrates hand and there withall power to ordaine what decrees the thinketh good in points of outward gouernment so as they crosse not or confront his royal lawes Adoniah Ioab Agag and sundry others in the old testament were cut off by the sword But where find we this allowed in the old lawe For these statutes deale but with these three kinds of death hanging stoning burning Dauid decreed fowre fould restitution of the stolne lamb and determined beside the fellone to the death wherein two wayes he ran before the law and strained it as it were a scrowle of parchmēt 1. For neyther was the crime capital 2. neyther was the delinquent to make so large a restitution For the law case was this If the theft were taken in the hand of the theef he was to redeliuer it If he had killed it or sold it he was but to restore fowre oxen for one and fiue sheep for one now fowre fould are eight the duplicate of the oxen Neyther is there any exception to be made against Dauid as of this course were exorbitant from Iustice or that he wringed or wronged gods lawe it being the prerogatiue of his place according to the circumstances of the cryme eyther to extentd or remit the punishment awarded by gods lawe I may yeeld that you say truth in your third reason that nothing hath bin so miserably abused as the most sacred signe of the Crosse and that from the beginning while some haue adored it and haue signed their breast and forehead with it as armour of proofe against diuels and all mishappes and we confesse that the Christians as Tertullian sayth at the first did take the outward sign of the Crosse for a supine security for their indemnity And Gregorie of Rome in his 3 booke of Dialogues lendeth vs a lye and that a lusty one as hee hath pestered that booke with a noysome companie of very fabulous and ridiculous things A Iewe sayth he entred by night into the temple of an Idoll there to take his rest but agast at the sight of so many euill spirits in that place he armed himselfe with the signe of the crosse now when the head deuil perceiued that a man was come he dispatched an vnder diuel vnto him to examine him what he was but when he had seen him he returned and sayde I found indeed an empty vessell but it was sealed and so left the Iewe and did him no harme which while he recounted with himselfe he became a Christian Also we are not ignorant what slauer and blasphemies haue been thrown vp to heauen in their adorations and orisons made to the Crosse as when they haue chaunted in this wise in their churches O Crux aue spes vnica Hoc passionis tempore Auge piis iustitiam Ressque dona veniam All haile ô Crosse our onlie hope in this time of the passion Increase in the godly righteousnesse and giue pardon to the guiltie All which words are the very vomit of an Aspe Againe they roare in the congregation thus Ecce signum cruc is venite adoremus Behold the roode of the Crosse let vs come and worship it Which is horrible sacriledge Againe thus they powre out the surcharge of their stomacks vpon the churches lap Crucem tuam adoramus Domine resurrectionem tuam sanctam glorificamus Where they set the Crosse in the higher roome and make the resurrectiō vnderling vnto it I dare not stir this deuilish dunghill any more least I stifle your stomack The sacrificing shauelings drinke down deeplie this damnable opinion and feede vpon it as vpon a restoratiue to the enchantment of their soules that they consecrate and sanctifie all things by the signe of the Crosse Thus we graunte that neuer poore signe was so tormented as the crosse hath been they hauing stretched euery ioynte thereof vpon the rack of their most execrable blasphemies But what would you euict from hence that therfore it is vtterly vnlawfull to vse the signe of the Crosse at all Then I deny your consecution For is the vse of a thing to be taken away for the abuse sake that is cast vpon it then take away the Sunne out of the firmament for that hath bin
thou hast a bridle to checke him and hold him in if he be dull and will not goe thou hast spurres to put to his flankes so controle thy too extrauagant affections and keep them in as it were with bit and bridle that they get not the vpper hand of thee and let better reason and suggestion spurre and stirre thy dulnesse that thou maiest go on forward in the right way of thy Christian calling In any wise take Wisedomes counsel with thee Eccles 18. Psal 72. which saith Doe not after thine owne lustes But say and pray with Dauid Leade mee in the path of thy commaundements for rude am I and ignorant and as a beast before thee Secondly an other cause is because peace is a jewell of that rarenesse and price that the world can not giue it wherefore it is iustice when one robbeth an other hee should loose that is his owne God taketh away the peace that is ours because we take away the honour that is his and serue him no better There be sixe things which the Lorde dooth hate Prou 6.16 yea his soule abhorreth seauen the seauenth thing is one that raiseth vp contentions among brethren My brother thinke of this and flee from it as from the face of a Serpent It is daungerous to play by the hole of this Aspe and to nourish in thy bosome this lions whelpe to thine owne decay The defect of righteousnesse is the effect of discorde for men embrace peace for righteousnesse sake and by their vnrighteous courses they are diuided Wherefore the Kingly Prophet maketh righteousnesse and peace to goe hand in hand together like Hyppocrates two twinnes in this piece of Antheme and Ode Righteousnesse and peace haue kissed each other Psal 85. As in a well ordered clocke the wheeles and inward implements are so framed as they walke their circuites circles and stations alike and they all concurre in motion and rest together so that albeit there be very many peeces yet in course and concord are all one So in a Christian Church and common-wealth there should be such sympathie of affections as though the parties be many they shoulde so sute and answer one an other in correspondencie of minde as if they were consolidated and coadunated into one body and minde in preseruing the vnitie of the spirite in the bond of peace Ephes 4. Rom. 14 1● in the faithfull apprehension of the Apostles counsaile For the kingdome of God is not meate nor drinke but righteousnesse and peace As the spirite dooth not giue life to the members vnlesse they be ioyned together so the Spirite of God quickeneth not the members of the Church vnlesse they be vnited and bound fast together by the bond of peace When Salomons Temple was in building there was not within the Temple so much as the noyse of an hammer heard Prou. 24.27 the timber and stone were broken and hewed without which aunswereth the precept deliuered by Salomon Prepare thy woorke without and make ready thy things in the field and after builde thine house It is the burthen of our Ministerie to builde a temple to the Lorde God of Israel by bringing a people to God whome the Apostle calleth liuely stones to be ioyned to the corner stone Christ Iesus Wherefore let vs handle our hammers without and strike the enemies of the Gospel and not lift vp hand one against an other I winde vp this warning with the passionate speech of Augustine to Hierome in the controuersie betweene him and Ruffinus which was then the argument of euery ones mouth the by-word of the people and the great disturbance of the peace of the Church Vt moncor vt doleo vt timeo prociderem ad pedes vestros flerem quantum valerem rogarem quantum amarem nunc vnumquemque pro seipso nunc vtrumque pro altere pro alijs maxime infirmis pro quibus Christus mortuus est qui vos tanquam in theatro vitae huius cum magno sui periculo spectant ne de vobis ea conscribendo spargatis quae qua●doque concordantes delere non poteritis qui nunc concordare nolitis And I speake to you and to your learned zealous brethren in like maner How am I mooued how grieue I and feare If I were with you I should fall before your feete so much as I loued you I should intreate you I should weepe my vttermost I should beseech each one for himselfe and both for each other and for others especially for those for whome Christ died who beholde you as it were in the stage of this life to their great danger that you would not scatter those things in your Sermons and Writings of your selues which you can not reuerse when you may be made friendes who will not now be made friendes Sixtly let my last words be as the latter raine that may giue fatnesse to the cloddes by the influence of the cloudes that you putte not off your calling the Lorde hauing made you so able a Minister of the new Testament in the conceit that you haue taken against lawful discipline maturitie of Iudgement scanning and examining it You shall not onely thereby corrupt the occasion giuen you by God of dooing much good by your godly labours but you shal be causa sine qua non of much hurtful consequence while perhappes some Idoll Shepheard may succeede in your roome that will not onely not grudge at these orders but wil make no conscience of discharging his duetie in preaching vnto them If your owne conscience doe not accuse you in this course I shall not accuse you goe in peace But be it farre from me to make so little account of my function as to cast it vp for so slender occasion If the difference were in matters of faith then you should doe well to contend with your vttermost sides and not to giue place to damnable doctrine though it should cost liuing and life too Verse 3. It is the exhortation of blessed Iude that we should contend for the maintenance of the faith which was once giuen vnto the Saintes So did Moses against the idolatrous Amalekites Iosua against the Canaanites Sampson against the Philistines Dauid against the Moabites and Edomites Asa Ezechias Iosias against the Idole-mongers rounde about Paul had verie quicke and sharpe contention against the Iewes in the fundamentall and maine poynt of out Iustification by faith and against the sect and schoole of Philosophers in the cause of the trueth of religion against idolatrous Gentiles and false brethren who craftily crept in to steale away the Christians libertie If the Prince shall make lawes for Poperie and commaund vs to worship an Image wee wilsay with Daniels godly consorts Dan. 3. Exod. 32. Psal 16.2 Mac. 6. O King we will not worship the Image that thou hast set vp Wee may not with Moses indure a calfe in Israel or with Dauid the offences of blood or with Eleazar the eating of swines flesh