Selected quad for the lemma: lord_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
lord_n	word_n	world_n	zion_n	484	4	9.0079	4	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A45823	A contention for truth: or, an impartial account, of two several disputations The one being on Munday, the 12th. of Feb. And the other on Munday, the 26. of the same month, in the year 1671. Between Mr. Danson of the one party, and Mr. Ives on the other, upon this question (viz) whether the doctrine of some true believers, falling away totally and finally from grace, be true or no? Published to prevent mistakes, and false reports, concerning the said conferences. By a lover of truth and peace.	Ives, Jeremiah, fl. 1653-1674.	1672 (1672)	Wing I1095A; ESTC R222598	83,987	220

can you may shew where any one of these Characters agree to one that is not a believer and it shall suffice Mr. Danson I begin with enlightening and that we have in the 17th of John 23. where Christ prays that the World may believe that thou hath sent me Mr. Ives What do you bring thia for Mr. Danson Why It is Scripture Mr. Ives What care I for Scripture Hear the Peofell a Laughing Mr. Ives What do you Laugh for Surely you cannot think that I speak to undervalue the Scriptures since we come here to prove our opinions by them Now when I say I care not for the Scripture my meaning is for Mr. Dansons impertinent alledging of it for what if he had brought his instance out of the first of Gen In the beginning God made Heaven and Earth I might have said what care I for that being impertinently alledged as to the thing in hand and if Mr. Danson may be a judge I will appeal to him what he thought of that expression Mr. Danson I thought as you have said not that you did reject or slight the Scripture but the use I made of it Mr. Danson I bring it to prove that the World that here is distinguished from those that believed through the Apostles word that these persons might know that God sent Jesus Christ which is part of the illumination Mr. Ives Here you have brought a text to prove something but not to the purpose For you are to bring a text to prove that some unbelievers were enlightened you are now to Instance in parts therefore first shew me where any were enlightened that were not True believers Mr. Danson This is an instance but you do not understand it when Christ had said for their sakes I Sacrifice my self that they also may be Sanctified through the Truth v. 19. he then adds Neither pray I for these alone but for them also which shall believe on me through their Word that they also may be one as thou Father art in me and I in thee that they also may be one in us that the World may believe that thou hast sent me Our Lord Jesus Christ doth here pray for those persons that should afterwards believe on him by the Apostles preaching for their Conversion that it may be a means of the Worlds Conviction of that more common believing and knowing which we do say is intended in this place by inlightened Mr. Ives You are under a mistake because my Argument is this that these qualifications are not applyable to any but True believers that is to no unbeliever you now only shew me that Christ prays for the World that the World may believe through the Apostles word which makes against you Mr. Danson Either you do not understand it and that 's your ignorance or yov will not and that 's your disingenuity Mr. Ives Pray Sir forbear I confess I am ignorant enough but it is not handsom for you to reflect so often upon me Mr. Danson I affirmed that our Lord Jesus Christ prays for Real believers those whom the Father had given to him and he speaks of this as one great end which he did design to obtain by their Conversion namely that the World thereby might be convinced not converted Mr. Ives How know you that Sir Mr. Danson The Word saith so Mr. Ives I Answer two things First that it is impertinent and not to the case and Secondly you give a wrong sense of the Text the first thing you are to shew is a Text where any are said to be inlightened that are not True believers and you tell me of a Text where Christ prays that the Apostles preaching may Convert others that others may believe through their word and then he prays afterwards that it may have this effect that the World may know that the Father sent him Now I hope it is Life Eternal to believe that Jesus Christ was sent from God Again If Knowledge and Enlightening were all one yet this Text doth not prove some did so know that were not True believers but only Christ prayed they might know Mr. Danson I deny that Mr. Ives Doth not the Scripture say so and this Scripture you bring makes no distinction of knowledge Mr. Danson He distinguisheth them from those persons that should believe on him through their word Mr. Ives Give me a Text where any man is said not to be a True believer and yet enlightened Mr. Danson This is unreasonable Mr. Ives It is reasonable therefore shew me where because this is so plentiful a word in Scripture You were once darkness but are now light in the Lord therefore walk as Children of the Light c. The word Light and Enlightened is a word frequently used Eph. 1.18 Heb. 10.32 There is not many more plentiful words in Scripture then this and therefore among all this variety I would have Mr. Danson shew me where this word Enlightened is applied to a man that is not a True believer Mr Danson I answer your demand is unreasonable that it must necessarily be brought in the same Terms for suppose it be inequivolent Terms it is enough this very word Enlightened in Heb. 6.4 is rendred in Chap. 10.32 Illuminated so that enlightening and knowledge are the same thing Mr. Ives Because likeness and similitude are the same thing therefore knowledge and light are the same thing I deny that for though sometime light and knowledge are in Scripture put for the same thing yet they are not alwaies but that which you are to do is to shew me where these Characters in Heb. 6. are applied to any but True believers now that was denied and you tell me you will not undertake the whole but you make no doubt to shew it in parts if not in the whole give me therefore the first Mr. Danson Here is a plain place John 1.7 That was the True light which lighteth every man that cometh into the World Mr. Ives This speaketh of such a light as lighteth every man that comes into the World either let us now be ingenious or let us all be Quakers for the truth is if you believe all men in the World are enlightened with the light of Christ I cannot understand how you or any that gives such a sense of that text should differ from their notion about the light within they so much speak of you are therefore to bring a text to prove that some men that were not True believers were yet enlightened for I deny the whole World were enlightened for this text speaks indeed of a universal light as the Sun may give a universal light and yet men that are blind are not enlightened doth it follow because the Sun is a universal light and enlightens the World that therefore every man in the World is enlightened for as I said there is a great many blind men and the Gospel is said to open mens eyes and to turn them from Darkness to Light c. You

It is made general and indefinite to Sons and Daughters To those persons that were under the dispensation of the old Testament among which there were believers only by outward profession Mr. Ives Why you are to give an instance that the promise of the holy Ghost is made to some that were not true believers I say give me an instance Mr. Danson I say here is a promise made to visible believers Mr. Ives Is it made to any that were not true believers If these were all visible believes they were all true believers for ought you know either give me an instance or leave it for the instance you have given me rather proves against you Look at the fulfilling of it Acts the second and then give me an instance of any that this promise was made or fulfilled too that were not true believers Mr. Danson In the 8 of the Acts. 12.13 verses he tells us there that when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdome of God and the name of Jesus Christ they were Baptized both men and women then Simon himself believed also and when he was Baptized he continued with Philip and wondred beholding the miracles and signs which were done Now when the Apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria received the word of God they sent unto them Peter and John who when they were come down prayed for them that they might receive the holy Ghost for as yet he was fallen upon none of them only they were believers in the name of the Lord Jesus then laid they their hands on them and they received the holy Ghost Mr. Ives But doth this prove that any of them were not True believers you are to give an instance that the holy Ghost was promised to some that were not True believers and you prove the quite contrary that it was given to them that did believe Mr. Danson I will shew you why it is not a contradiction for the Scripture saith that Simon himself believed also and the Scripture likewise affirms concerning him that he received the holy Ghost Mr. Ives But doth the Scripture say he received the holy Ghost he would have given money indeed to have had it himself therefore this is nothing to your purpose Mr. Danson Thus far it is to our purpose because the Scripture in all its promises which it makes to believers it respects them as they are visible belivers not as they are True believers Mr. Ives Then God promises salvation to Men not as they are True believers but visible believers for Mr. Danson said all the promises respects them as visible but not True believers But however I say give me an instance where the promise of the holy Ghost was ever made to an unbeliever or to a man that did not Truly believve Mr. Danson It was a promise made to those that were visible believers and among those of that number there were such to be found Mr. Ives The promise of Salvation is made to believers promiscuously but doth it therefore follow that they are believers because they profess it pray hear me It is upon the presumption that they are True believers I say it is a promise made to none but True believers Mr. Danson I deny it it is made to visible beleivers Mr. Ives Shew where it is made to them why should you foist in a word Mr. Danson This is sufficient for the proof of it that the promise that is here made of the extraordinary gifts of the holy Ghost is not made to True believers as True but as visible Mr. Ives I say it presupposes them True believers Give an instance if you can that the Scripture doth not suppose them True believers to whom this promise is made Mr. Danson There is none Mr. Ives Then we have done and my Argument is proved and I shall now proceed to another Argument but before I do that I will repeat the sum of our past discourse This I Asserted that Christians were not bound to believe that God commanded them to avoid that which they could not but do you gave this distinction that the command was possible in it self or in relation to the subject commanded but not possible with respect to the decree of God Mr. Danson I said that those Cautions that are given to visible believers in general that they should take heed of falling away did suppose the possibility of it in the nature of the thing In True believers also because man is but mutable and grace is but a Creature and therefore certainly it may be lost and yet it is certainly Impossible as to True believers upon the supposition of the divine decree and Christs promise to preserve and uphold the grace of True believers Mr. Ives This is just as if a man should say the whole Earth is possible to be overflowed with Water in respect to the nature of it but with respect to the decree of God it is Impossible but then if God hath made such a decree no man hath any more reason to fear a universal inundation because of such a decree then he had to fear it if it were impossible with respect to the nature of the thing in like manner if it be impossible to fall from grace with respect to the decree of God there is no more reason to fear falling then there would have been had it been impossible with respect to the nature of the thing but to proceed The Sum then of my first Argument is this If True believers cannot fall away finally they ought to believe they cannot so fall away Now if they ought to believe they cannot fall away finally then it is not reasonable for them either to fear they can so fall or to be commanded or cautioned to take heed of it if God hath decreed it shall never be The Sum of the second Argument is that such as are partakers of the divine Nature may fall away therefore True believers may this I proved by this reason because some that partake of the holy Ghost as it is said Heb. 6. Therefore some that did partake of the divine Nature might fall away because none were ever made partakers of the holy Ghost as Mr. Danson hath expounded it for the extraordinary gifts of it but such as were first partakers of the divine Nature as he expounds the divine Nature 2 Pet. 1.4 For the inward and special graces of it now if none had the promise of such a partaking of the holy Ghost but those that first did so partake of the divine Nature as aforesaid then it must needs follow that if those that partake of the holy Ghost may fall away then they that partake of the divine Nature may fall away but the 6 of the Hebrews tells us such my fall away Ergo My next Argument is this to prove that some True believers may fall away totally and finally from grace If all those that have the Characters of true and sincere believers mentioned in the

have followed me in the regeneration or in the Resurrection shall sit upon 12 Thrones judging the 12 Tribes of Israel Now this promise seems to be absolute and Judas was one of those 12 to whom it was made but the condition implyed was that they should alway to the end continue in his service and therefore Judas falling away and not performing the condition never came to receive the fruition of the promise Again 1 Sam. 2.30 I said indeed that thy house the house of thy Father should walk beforeme for ever but now the Lord saith be it far from me for them that honour me I will honour c. So the Land of Canaan is often promised to the seed of Abraham for an everlasting possession yet Deut. 4.27 the Lord tells them that if they corrupt themselves He will scatter them among the Nations and they shall be left few in number among the Heathen where he will lead them And so Ezek 11.17 18 19. God promises as one would think upon the first view absolutely that he would gather Israel from among the People and give them one heart and put a new spirit in them but yet he tells them in Chap. 36.27 37. v. compared together that he will do this upon a condition as is there exprest yet for all this will I be inquired of by the house of Israel and so Jer. 31. Jer. 32.40 41 there we read of a Covenant which some call absolute but I must needs say an absolute Covenant in their sense is absolute non-sense in which God promises many things but yet he tells the same People Isa 55.3 That IF they will incline their Ears and come to him he will make an everlasting Covenant with them even the sure mercies of David in this sense God's promises that sem absolute in form are to be conditionally understood As he that believeth on the Son hath everlasting Life and shall not come into condemnation John 8.34 John 5.24 Psalm 125.1 He that trusts in the Lord shall be as mount Sion that never shall be removed Now if these promises are absolute then this must be the sense of such Scriptures that if men have once truly believed and trusted in God they shall inevitably be saved let them hereafter trust or distrust believe or disbelieve or whether they be not or whether they be Whoremongers Adulterers or Idolaters yet they shall be saved and abide for ever Now if this be not the sense then these promises and all of that kind must be understood conditionally that he that believeth and continueth in believing and that trusteth in the Lord and continueth in so doing upon these tearms and conditions he shall be saved and abide for ever and to this agrees all these plain and express Scriptures which being well considered will explain all those texts and promises that seem to be absolute as to the form of them John 5 10. IF YE keep my Commandments ye shall abide in my Love and John 14.23 IF any man love me he will keep my sayings and my Father will love him and we will come unto him and dwell with him 1 Col. 1.21 22 23. And you that were in time past Strangers and Enemies in your minds by wicked works now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh to present you blameless and unreproveable in his sight IF YE continue in the Faith grounded and settled and be not moved away from the hope of the Gospel c. Heb. 3.14 We are made partakers of Christ IF WE hold fast the beginning of OUR CONFIDENCE firm unto the end Rev. 10. be thou faithful unto Death and I will give thee a crown of Life Mat. 24.13 he that endureth to the end shall be saved Heb. 10.38 the just shall live by Faith but if he draw back my Soul shall have no pleasure in him Much like these promises that seem absolute are such Scriptures that promise eternal Life to men without any exception or making the least question of their perseverance when that life and blessing promised is suspended upon their change as he that believeth shall not see Death and he that drinketh saith our Saviour of the Water that I shall give him shall never Thirst this plainly implies that these promises suppose their continuance in so doing so Christ saith he that confesseth me before men him will I confess before my Father which is in Heaven whosoever shall deny me before men him will I deny before my Father which is in Heaven Mat 10.32 33. Now Judas did confess Christ before men but he had no right or claim to this promise because he did not Persevere in this confession in like manner Peter denyed Christ before men but he was not denyed by Christ before his Father in Heaven because he did not persist and dye in the denying of him But yet we may see that the promises of the one and the threatening of the other is made without exception and wherever we read of any such promises a possibility of a change is supposed for when the Scripture saith He that believeth in the Son bath everlasting Life and shall not come into condemnation it doth no more suppose it impossible for that man to fall away and have this promise suspended then the other text that saith He that believeth not shall not see life but the wrath of God abideth or remaineth upon him doth suppose it Impossible for this man ever to believe and to have the wrath of God or the execution of vengeance suspended upon his believing to this may be reduced all Scriptures that seem to promise a blessing or threaten wrath according to mens present state and condition though both the one and the other may be suspended upon their change and that an impossibility of a change is not to be understood more by the one Scripture that promises Salvation to the believer then by the other that tells us wrath remains upon the unbeliever But to this it is usually replyed that though it be true there are promises that are conditional yet God hath promised to perform those conditions for them to whom be graciously makes such promises and therefore it is not possible for any True believer to fall away finally This perswasion is grounded upon the promises of the second kind that I before premised and they are such promises as 2. Thes 2 3. But the Lord is faithful who shall stablish and keep you from evil Phil. 1.6 He that hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ 1 Cor. 8 9. Who shall also confirm you to the end c. 1. Pet. 1.5 Who are kept by the mighty power of God through faith unto Salvation Phil. 2 12 13. Work out your own Salvation with fear and trembling for it is God that worketh in you to will and to do of his good pleasure 1 Thef 5.24 Faithful is he which hath called you Who also