These thyngs haue been doone among the heathen whose goddes were no gods but deuyls and that by the permission and suffrance of God because of their horrible idolatry that they dyd most shamefully wallow in But it foloweth not that the lyke may be done among the people of God Philalethes Answer It is moste manyfeste and playne that God doth permit and suffer Sathan to worke suche thynges among his people For dothe not God geue vnto false Prophetes power to worke miracles Deute 19. that so he may try and proue his people whether their loue him or not And whether they will stedfastly cleaue vnto his lawes And least it shold be said that this was don amoÌ„g the Iewes but that it is otherwise in the churche of Christ we haue an excellent prophecie of the holy apostle wher he saith on this maner 2. Thes 2 Than shall the wycked man be reuealed whom the Lord shall consume with the spirite of his mouth and shal abolishe with the bryghtnesse of his coÌ„ming eueÌ„ him whose coÌ„miÌ„g is by the woorkyng of Sathan with all power and signes and lying wonders And in all deceauablenesse of vnrightuousnesse emong theim that perishe because they receaued not the loue of the truthe that they myght bee saued And therfore god shal send them strong delusion that they should beleue lyes that all they might be damned whiche beleued not the truth but had pleasure in vnrightuousnesse Do we not lerne by these words of thapostle that in the later days there shall be wonders and signes in the kingdome of Antichriste And doubtlesse There bee vvonders and signes in the kingdome of Antichrist as they are by the rightous iudgement of God ordeined for to deceiue them that haue a delight in vnrightuousnesse so doo they also take away sicknesses and diseases that the vngodly contemners of the truth may the more be blynded and confirmed in their error Are not also these Christes wordes Many shall say to me in that day Lorde haue we not by thy name prophecied he we not by thy name cast out deuils and doone or wrought great miracles And theÌ„ will I confesse to them I neuer knew you Depart ye from me ye workers of iniquitie Mat. 24. And in an other place There saith he shall arise false Christes and false prophetes and shal shewe great signes and wonders so that if it were possible they shoulde deceaue the very elect It doeth sufficiently appeare by this that many times it cometh to passe not onely among the heatheÌ„ and Iewes but also in the chirche of God that by the inuocation of them that are no Goddes not a fewe haue ben and are healed Yet no man ought thervppon to conclude that it is laufull in the time of trouble to call vpon any other than vppon the true lyuyng God all creatures be they neuer so excellent beyng layde asyde Similitude Procreation of children doth not excuse vvhooredome no more doth the vvorking of miracles excuse the idolatrous inuocatioÌ„ of Saincts Eutrepelus I am of this opinion that miracles doo no more excuse the inuocation and worshippyng of Saintes than the conception gettyng or procreation of children can excuse adulterie whoredome although it be a miracle that the child is conceiued in the mothers woÌ„be that there it is norished and fed and at lengthe in his due tyme brought forth into the worlde and suche a myracle as can onely be doone and wrought by the diuine vertue and power of God Likewise he that stealeth bread or meat if he do eate it he shal bothe take away his hunger and also feede his bodye though this vertue and power to feede the body doeth onely perteyne to God Shall we therfore excuse whooredom adulterie and theft Didymus No maÌ„ I trow will be of that mynde Eutrapelus Howe can then the inuocation of Sainces which the whole scripture dooeth disauouche be excused by shewyng or workyng of myracles Therfore when thei say why should we not call vpon the Saintes sithe that many as we se dayly by experieÌ„ce haue ben bothe healed and also deliuered from the perills and dangers that they were in by that meane It is euen as if the horemoÌ„ger shold say Why shuld I not cleaue vnto a harlot sith the I do aswell get childreÌ„ of her as of a laufull wife or as if that these shuld likewise say Why should I toyle or labor sith that by stealyng I can helpe my necessitie nede As then it is not laufull for any man to seke to haue childreÌ„ by adultery and whoredom although meÌ„ may haue issu that way nor yet by pickyng stealing to helpe the necessities of his body althogh many do lyue by theft but it is the part of an honest maÌ„ to seke to haue issue by honest matrimonie wedlock by due labor to get his liuing so it is the dutie of a true christeÌ„ maÌ„ The abolishing of the similitude in what trouble peril or daÌ„ger so euer he be to seke for help deliueraÌ„ce not by the vnlauful calling vpon the dead Saints althogh many haue receaued their helth by it but by the faithful inuocation only of the true lyuing eternall god And as an honest man had lieffer to bee withoute childreÌ„ than to get them in aduoutrie whoredome Similitude and to byte his bread verye nere rather than to lyue by thefte and other vnlaufull meanes so he that feareth God vnfeignedly hath lieffer to suffer any kynde of affliction than to seke for healpe and deliuerance by the forbidden inuocatioÌ„ of dead creatures Albion Wel I graunt that the dead Sainctes ought not to bee called vppon as gods I meane that they ought not to be called vpon as thoughe they their selues should help vs A good Chift of the papistes â–ª in our troubles and aduersities but that wee ought to call vpon them as beyng our mediators aduocates and intercessors which doo make intercession vnto God for vs. Philalethes Where I pray you brother Albion haue ye learned this diuinitie So are we wont always to excuse the want or lacke of faith Whâ— doo we not rather praye vnto God out heauenly Father sith that in so many places he wil haue vs so for to doo Albion Iohn 9. Obie 4. Because we are sinners And ye know what the scripture saith Peccatores noÌ„ andâ—r Deus God heareth not synners but them that are obedient to his will Philalethes That we are sinners we haue that coÌ„mune with al mortall men For Answer 8 King â— 1 Iohn 1. A difference betâ—ixt sinners there is no man that synneth not And if we shold say We haue no sin we deceaue our selues and the truthe is not in vs. But this difference dothe the scriptures puâ—fe betwixte synners that some are always ready to â—â—pâ—nt whensoeuer they be eyther by the outwarde preachyng of Gods word or by the inwarde motion of the holy ghost moued therto and some agayne wyll neuer
Christians and to cleaue onelye to Christe and by him to be made one with the father If the saintes do all thinges yf they haue the gouernement tuition defense protection of cities and townes if the standing manfullye in battaile the rennyng awaye and victory if the curinge of diseases if the benefit of health be in their haÌ„ds if they haue power ouer the windes stormes tempestes if they possesse al the lymmes of a mannes body what doth god in the meane while Where is his diuyne prouidence will they say that god being wearye doeth coÌ„mit the gouernement of his creatures vnto other But no suche infirmities is god subiect vnto It is euident and plaâ—ne then right honorable sir that they doe make of him a plaine Idole yea they make of him no god at all For take his diuine prouideÌ„ce away or make him subiect to any infirmities and then he is no god It is farre otherwise with vs. Howe the faithful do confesse god For beinge instructed by the scriptures and worde of god we do wholly depend vpon his fatherly prouidence vsing with most harty thankefulnes all those lawful meanes that he hath appointed and ordeyned for vs and so gyue him onelye the whole glorye of the gouernement of al thinges for the commoditye and profit of his chosen and electe people A denial of god Again is not this a denial of god to go aboute to worshippe and serue him otherwise then he himself doeth appoint and prescribe in his holy and sacred word Socrates being an heathen Socrates doeth plainlye say that in religion it is requirâ—d that euery god be worshipped after his own wil and not after the wil of his worshippers If this did take place in false religioÌ„ howe muche more ought it to take place in true religion I meane in that religion that god hath set fourth vnto vs by his eternal and euerlasting wisedome Deut. xii These are his wordes Ye shal not do euery man that thing that seemeth vnto you best I am the Lorde my god that thing only that I commaunde thee se that thou doest it add nothing vnto it and minish nothing from it Again Math xv They worship me in vaine teaching the doctrines and preceptes of men But howe wel these thinges haue bene and are obserued of our frends the catholikes let your honour be iudge Those wayes that god wil be worshipped and serued they haue stoutly contemned chose eueri day straunge kindes of worshipping and seruice which the Lord doeth not once mencion of in the scriptures This then is an other differeÌ„ce betwixt them and vs How the godâ—y do worship god that we will haue god to be honoured worshipped and serued accordinge to his worde and as he himselfe doeth appointe and prescribe in his sacred scriptures submitting our selues wholy our wit and reason al the wisdome that can be in vs vnto his vnsercheable wisdome and coÌ„tenting our selues with that fourme and maner of religyon that he hath sett fourthe vnto vs by his sonne Iesu Christ whom he hath appointed by his holy spirit to be the only teacher scholemaster of his church Mat. xvii we do study labour to the vttermost of our power with al due submission and obedience to kepe our selues within the limites and boundes of his prescribed rules Canons hauing alwayes this saying of Samuell before our eyes Samu. xv Hath the lord as great pleasure in burnt offeringes and sacrifices as when the voice of the Lord is obeyed Behold to obeye is bâ—â—ter then sacrifice and to hearken is better then the fatt of Rammes Mat xv Whereas they neglect nge gâ—des commaundementes that so they may set vp their owne traditions and going about moste vngodlye to sett the wisedome of god to schoole do bring in all maner of trâ—ssh trâ—ssh shippes full of dombe and beggerly ceremonies whiche they vrge with fire and sworde Wherin doeth consisterie outwarde worshipping of god and maintain them with al kinde oâ— cruel tâ—râ—â—nye Whereby the externe and outward worshippinge of god whiche consisteth in the preaching of the doctrine and in the right and due ministration of the sacramentes accordinge to the institution and ordeynaunce of our sauiour Iesu Christe and in the faythful prayers of the church is clen abolyshed and put downe Read the ouerthrow of the iustification of workes for that Howe peryllous a thinge it is to attempte to serue god otherwise than he himself doth appointe it is easye to see in the x. Chapyt of Leuiticus and in the ij booke of Samuel and syxt chapt and in the .i. boke of Cronicles xiii chapyter well this is most sure and certain that they do prefarre their wisedome before the wisdome of god â–ª which is a playne denial of god For yf he be not of a perfect wysdome he is no god Againe this that they do is a manifest forsaking of the couenaunt of the lorde A forsaking of the couenaunte of god Howe the aduersaries do coÌ„fesse christ Math. viii What it is to confesse Christe aright as it may be proued by manye places of the scryptures but specially by the xxij chap. of Ieremy the Prophete But now let vs come to their confession of our sauyour Iesu Christ How do they confesse him I pray you Euen as the vnclean spirytes did who euery where acknowledged him to be the sonn of god the sonne of the highest To confesse Christe a right then it is not onely to confesse him to be true and naturall god equall and of one substaunce with the father and to be true natural man equal and of one substaunce with vs beyng in al thinges lyke vnto his bretherne synne only excepted But to confesse and acknowledge him to be an omnisufficyent and moste perfect Sauiour of all those that beleaue in hys name and put their whole trust in the merytes of his death passion and bloudsheddinge and to be the onely mediatour betwixt God and men For therefore did he come Wherfore Christ came into the flesh Ioa. iii. Tâ—moth i Hel iu. vii Actes iiii and did take vpoÌ„ him our fraile nature that destroiyng the works of the diuel he should saue sinners most perfectly and to the vttermost I meane as manye as come vnto God by him so that there is none other name vnder heauen geuen vnto men wherin we muste be saued but the name of our sauiour Iesu Christe This therefore is oure confession and beleue that by the merites onelye of the death passion and bloodshedding of oure sauiour Iesu Christe being apprehended and taken holde vpon by faythe we obteyne full saluation forgeuenes of our synnes and deliueraunce from eternal and euerlasting damnation Whefore we do attryhute vnto him the whole glorye of the saluation of mankinde acknoweledgynge hym to be oure onelye mediatoure aduocate and intercessour accordinge to these scriptures I am the waye the trueth and the life â–ª Iohn
in gods boke that shold haue coÌ„manded theÌ„ otherwise they wold haue ben obedient vnto it But no suche expresse word shall ye fynd in all the scriptures wherein not withstandyng all thynges that do pertaine to the saluation of man are most sufficiently sette forth vnto vs. Therfore it were a plain blasphemie in the tyme of our trouble to cal vpon any other than vpon the liuyng God onely who by his prophete Dauid speketh these comfortable wordes vnto vs Psal 100. Call vpon me in the daye of thy trouble so will I deliuer thee thou shalte glorifie me Who I praye you hauyng this coÌ„mandement of the euerlyuyng and eternall God ioyned with so sweete a promise VVe haue no promis in all the vvhole bodye of the scriptures that the deade sayntes do heate vs. would seeke to any other Eutrapelus I woulde holde hym woorse thanne madde that would doo it sithe that wee haue neyther expresse woorde nor promysse in all the whole body of the Scriptures that the dead sainctes should heare vs or succor vs in the tyme of our neede Philalethes Vvhat properties he oughte to haue that vve muste pray vnto Adde therto that he whom we ought to pray vnto muste haue all these properties 1 Fyrst he must be omnipotent or almightie that is able to do what soeuer he wyll bothe in heauen and in earth for onlesse he were able and of power to helpe vs out of all maner of troubles perils and dangers that we bee in be they neuer so great it were but labour lost to pray vnto him 2 Secondly he must be of an absolute and perfect wyse dome that so he may perfectly know how to helpe them that call vpon hym for helpe ayde and succour and how to compasse and ouerthrow the craftie and subtill deuises of the enemies of his people For many there be that haue myght and power but for wante of wisedome they can bring nothing to passe their might and power profiteth them nothyng 3 Thirdely he muste not onely be almightie and of a perfect wisedom but also willyng both to heare and to helpe vs. For what shoulde his great power and wysedome auayle or profite vs except he were willyng to doo vs good 4 Fourthly he must be such one as is able to here the prayers of al them that call vpon him although in one instant all the nations that be vpon the earth shold make theâ—r praiers together vnto hym Fo els it shold come to passe that the suite and prayers of th one shoulde be both hyndred and letted by the praiers of the other or whyles he shoulde heare the praiers of the one and delyuer them out of the present danger and perill the other theyr prayers beynge not heard should perishe in the same 5 Fiftely this propretie also he must haue that is he muste be suche one as dothe better know our necessities and what is expedient for vs than we our selues bee able to declare For who wold coÌ„mit himselfe into the handes of that phisition that can know no more of the sycknesse than the pacient can tell himselfe These .v. propreties are necessarily required in hym whom we oughte in the tyme of our trouble to call vpon Bryng one either in heuen or in earth that hath all these thynges Rom 10. and then we mai be sure that it is he that ought to be praied vnto of all men But who can be such except he be almyghty except he knoweth all thynges or be of a perfect wisedom except he be most bouÌ„tuouse and moste willyng to doo good vnto all them that by faithfull praiers doo fly vnto him hearing all them that call vppon hym and knwoyng better their necessities than they their selues be able to declare Didymus None I trow can be suche but the true lyuing and eternal God onely For none of all the angels nor of the children of Adam can haue these propreties onelesse we wil grant them to be gods Philalethes It foloweth then by good consequence that none ought to be called vpon God only oughte to bee called vppon but the true lyuing God onely For he only is almightie whose spirite is the spirite of counsaile so that he knowethe howe to deliuer his out of temptation being so mercyful and bounteous that he dooth of his owne goodnes call the afflicted vnto hymselfe Psal 50. and promiseth healpe vnto all them that calle vppon hym sayeng as we alledged beefore Cal vpon me in the day of thy trouble so shall I delyuer thee and thou shalte glorifie me Agayne he dothe not onely beyng euery where present here our woordes but also the very desyres of our owne heartes knowyng most perfectly the infirmitie and weakenesse of his worke that he himselfe hath made There can be no true inuoation vvithoute faithe ObiectioÌ„ 1 Moreouer this is moste sure that no inuocation or praier can be made withoute faythe Albion And doo not they that praye vnto Sainctes beleue that they shall be heard Without all doubt they bee fully persuaded that theyr prayers shall bee hearde and that they shall obteyne healpe and succour at the deade Sainctes handes Therefore it canne not bee sayde that their inuocation or prayers be without faithe VVhence the faythe of the christians doo comme and vvhervppon 〈◊〉 it gronded Philalethes But whence doothe the faithe of the christians proceede and comme but of the preachyng of the gospell or whervpon is it grounded but vpon the infallible word of Gud which sendeth vs to none other but to our heueÌ„ly Father through his sonne Iesus Christe our onely sauior aduocate and mediatour This doothe the Apostle write Who soeuer shal cal vpon the name of the Lorde Rom 10. shal be saued But how shall they cal on him in whom thei haue not beleued And how shall they beleue in hym of whom they haue not hearde And howe shall they heare withoute a preacher And how shall they preache except they be sente as it is written How beautifull are the feete of theim whiche bryng glad tidynges of peace and bryng glad tidynges of good thinges But they haue not all obeyed the Gospell Esai â—â— Nauir â— Esai â—â— Iohn 12. for Esaie saithe Lorde who beleueth our report Then faith commeth by hearyng and hearyng by the worde of God What could I beseche you be spokeÌ„ more plainly of the true Inuocation and prayers of the ChristiaÌ„s Who seeth not whence it dothe come How sayth he shall they call on hym in whom they do not beleue The true inuocation thenne can not be without faithe And that we might vnderstande of what saith he doth speake he setteth foorth whence it cometh that we maye know the qualitie boldnesse of it He sheweth that it cometh by the preching of the Gospell whiche bryngeth vnto vs glad tidings of peace and certifieth vs of good thyngs But the true preachyng of the Gospell dothe teache vs to beleue in God onely and in his
repent but doo stubbrnely vnto the end abyde in theyr sinnes makyng a mocke of the threatnynges of God and of his iudgementes If we be of the numbre of the true repentant synners who dareth contrarye to all the whole scriptures affirm that God will not heare vs Math. 6. If synners may not bee heard why dooeth our sauiour Iesus Christ teache vs to say forgeue vs our trespasses as we forgiue them that trespasse against vs Again if God wil not heare repentant sinners but the saints doo heare them and haue pitie and coÌ„passion on them then are the Sainctes mercyful and God vnmerciful Therfore the Scripture should haue comended and sett foorth the mercyfulnesse of the Saints and not the mercy of God All saincts that be in glory haue ben saued 〈…〉 the mercy of god But let such blasphemie be farre from vs that we shoulde take away mercye from God and attribute it vnto sayntes of whom not as much as one hath bene saued but only through the grace and mercy of God Nowe if we be vnrepentant synners what meruaile is it if we haue no boldnesse at all to call vpon God Ye know that they that are such as they be voyde of a liuely faith in our sauior Iesus Christ so are they most vnworthy that thei shuld be herâ—â— Eutrapelus Verily it semeth vnto me the greatest foly in the world to thinke or imagine that the Saintes are so far different or disagreyng from God that whom he wil not heare because of their vnrepentant heartes them they would not onely heare but also make intercession vnto GOD for theym The iniury that is don by the aduersaries both to god and to his sainctes Who doth not se that so doyng we do great iniurie bothe to God and the Saintes To the Saints because that we iudge them to be such as will heare an vnrepentant sinner when he calleth vppon them make intercession for him And to God The enemies harp stil vpon one string because we shold imagin that he will contrary to his worde admitte any intercessors for suche a sinner Albion Yet they will say still that this is the scripture good heareth not synners Here the holy ghoste maketh no suche distinction as ye make Philalethes I may answer you by the words of saint Augustine August li. 2. contra episto lam parmeniani ca 9. who writeth after this maner Hoc à Domino non est dictuÌ„ sed â—b illo qui oculos corporis iam quidem restitutos habebat sed ei oculi cordis nondum patebant vnde ipsum Dominum adhuc prophetam putabat NaÌ„ eum postea cognituÌ„ del filium adorauit Ipse autem dominus quum in vno templo orarent Pharisaeus publicanus â–ª publicanum confitentem peccata sua magis iustificatum dicit quam Phatisaeum â—actantem merita sua Quanquam enim iustificatus destiterit esse peccator tamen vt iustificaretur peccator orabat peccator confitebatur exauditus iustificatus est vt desinerer esse peccator NoÌ„ vtique desineret esse peccator nisi prius exaudiretur peccator That is to saye This was not spoken of the Lord but of him which had alredy his bodily eies restored Ioan. 9. but the eies of his heart were not yet open and therefore he thought yet of the Lord that he was but a prophete For afterwards Luc 18. knowyng that he was the sonne of God he worshipped him But the Lord hymselfe when tow dyd praye together in one temple A Pharisei and a Publican dooth say that the publican coÌ„fessing his sinnes was more iustified thaÌ„ the pharisey bostyng his merites For although beyng iustified he cessed to be a sinner The example of the publicane yet whiles he was a sinner he dyd pray confesse his synnes that he myghte be iustified and beyng heard he was iustified that he myghte ceasse to bee a synner And truely he should not ceasse to be a synner onelesse he were hearde beyng yet a synner Eutrapelus As farre as wee can gather of the texte that they dooe allege we shall not greatly neede the helpe of this holy father Hovv the place aleageth out of the .9 of Iohn ought to be vnderstanded for let vs only marke the circumstances of the place The phariseys dyd say of Christ This man is not of god for he kepeth not the Sabboth day By which wordes they went about to robbe Christ of the glorie of the miracle that he had wrought in making the blynde man to see and to persuade the people that he was a moste abhominable synner and a despiser of the Lordes holy lawes and ordinaunces The poore sely blynd man hauyng receued such a benefite at Christes handes did all that in him dyd lye to stoppe theyr blasphemous mouthes saieng We know that god heareth not synners that is suche synners as ye wyll make hym for it was not hearde sence the worlde began that any dydde open the eyes of a man that was borne blynde Except this man were of god he could haue done nothyng It is easy now to vnderstand of what kynd of sinners the scripture speaketh there For if those wordes were spoken generally of all sortes of synners what iniurye shold this be both to the worde of god and also to his diuine grace Didymus ObiectioÌ„ If ye will geue me leaue I will bring foorth an obiection wherwith they do meruailously for it is sette out with a similitude taken of the commune vse of men trouble the heades of the symple and ignorant people â— Grounded vpon a similitude Albion We do all geue you good leaue Didymus Who say our galant champions of the Popes clergie dare come to an earthly kyng or prince hauyng any suite vnto hym without mediatours They that haue ought to doo with the prince they wyl come vnto them whom they know to be in most fauor with him and them doo they make their mediatours that they maye haue the better accesse vnto hym and spede in theyr businesse We haue the examples of the same in gods word 1. King 2 for was not Berseebah a mediatrix vnto her sonne Solomon for Adoniah Againe was not Absalon reconciled vnto his father Dauid 2. Sa. 14. by the meanes of Ioab If we may not then come to worldly princes but that we muste haue some to be meanes for vs howe dare we be so bolde beyng synful creatures to appeare before the maiestie of God without mediatours But who should be those mediators but the blessed virgin Mary the holy apostles and martirs of our sauiour Iesus Christe PHILA Answer In deede with this similitude they doo wonderfully dasylle the eies of the simple and vnlearned But I trust that we shall soone ouerthrowe it and so muche the rather because that it hath no fuÌ„dation at all in gods boke Fyrste and formoste are not these the wordes of the Lorde Esay 55. Num vie meae sicut viae
it doth kinâ—ell nouryshe and encrease in vs a brotherlye loue But the inuocation of dead saintes doth quenche them both Albion Obie 9 I thynke that the Saincts that be alreadye in heauen doo of a brotherlye loue praye for vs. For they are members of the same bodye that we bee of and loue vs and therfore withoute all doubte they doo praye for vs. Are not Hierony contra vâ—gilaÌ„tium I pray you these Hieromes wordes against Vigilantius Dicis in libello tuo quod dum viuimus 〈◊〉 pro nobis orato possimus post quam autem mortui fuerimus nullius sit pro â—ocxaudienda oratio praesertim cum martyres sui sanguinis â—tionem obsecrantes impetrate non quluerunt That is Thou sayest in thy booke that whyles we lyue we may pray one for an other but after we be dead Reue. 6. no prayer that is made for an other shal be hearde speciallye sith that the martyrs praiyng for the vengeaunce of their bloud coulde not obtaine their petition Yf the Apostelleâ— and martyrs canne pray for other when they ought yet to bee carefull for theim selues howe much more doo they praye after theyr crounes Exod. 3â— Act. 7. victories and triumpheâ— Moyses beyng one man dothe obteyne pardon for .vi. hundred thousand harnessed men And Stephen beyng folower of his maister and the first martyr in Christ doth pray for his persecutors Act 27. and after that they begynne to be wyth Christe shall they be of lesse ablenesse Paule the Apostell saithe the lxxvi soules were geuen him in the shyppe And shall he nowe beyng after his resolucion wyth Christe holde his peace and not bee able to open his mouth for theym that in all the whole world did through his preachyng beleue to gospell By these wordes of Hierome we do learne that yf the dead Sainctes whyles they were yet in the earth dydde of a compassion and loue pray for their poore bretherne whome they sawe to be in misery Answer much more they will doo the same beeyng now in perfection and in glorie with they head Phialethes It is easy to say that the dead Saints do of a loue that they beare vnto vs beyng yet in the coÌ„bate make intercession for vs but how can that bee proued by the scriptures and worde of God without the whiche no maner of doctrine ought to be receaued of the faithefull congregation of God If ye argue or reason after this sorte The dead Saintes doo loue vs and therfore they pray for vs for wheÌ„ they were yet in this life they prayed diligently for their bretherne The argument of the pâ—pâ—sts beaten vpon then ovvn heades whome they loued by and by it may be answered that they also did wepe with them that dyd wepe shall we say that they do nowe the same in heauen for christen and brotherly loue dothe not onely pray for the afflicted but it doth also weepe with theim that doo weepe Didymus I am afrayed brother Albion that ye shall be faine to seeke an other argumente for to proue that the dead Saintes doo pray for vs PHIL. Again if they pray how doo they pray I beseche you whether doo they particularly praye make intercession for them of whom they be called vpon Aâ—gu li. de cuâ—a pro mor his agenda prayed to or do they generally praye make intercession for al vs Saint Augustine dothe plainely affirme that the soules of the saintes that be in heauen do not know what the lyuing doo here in earth His wordes are these If the soules of the dead were present in the matters or businesses of the liuing or shuld talke with vs when we se them in our slepe that if I should holde my peace of the other my godly mother wold neuer a night forsake me which folowed me both by sen by land that she myght lyue in my companie For God forfend that she should in the blessedfull lyfe be made more cruell in so muche that when any thyng troubleth my heart she wold comfort me hir son beyng in heauinesse whome she loued entierly whom she would neuer see to be striken in sadnesse But verily the same which the sacred psalme doothe sound or set out is true Psal â— My father and my mother haue forsaken me but the Lorde hath taken me vp If then oure parentes haue forsaken vs howe hee they present in our affaires and carefulnesse or in our eares Nowe if our parentes be not present who of the other dead doo knowe what we doo or what we suffer Osaie the Prophete saieth Esa 63. Thou arte our father Abraham was ignorant of vs and Israell knew vs not If these greate Patriarches were ignorant what was doone vnto the people that descended of them vnto whom beleuyng in God promyse was made that the same people should come of their stocke how are the dead present for to know and helpe the affaires and doinges of the liuyng Howe shall we say that they haue a good turn or are wel prouided for which dyed afore the calamities did come Note which ensued and folowed after their death yf after theyr decesse they haue also a feelynge of those thyngs that doo chance in the calamitie of mans lyfe Or doo we peraduenture through error speake these thyngs iudge them to be quiete whom the troublesom life of the liuing do vnquiete What is it then that god doth for a great benefite promise vnto that godly kyng Iosias that he should die afore lest he shoulde see those calamities plages and miseries whiche be threatned shold come vpon the place vpon the people These are gods wordes Thus saith the Lord god of Israel 2. Kin. 22. 2 Chr 34. The wordes that thou hast heard shall come to passe But because thine heart did melt thou didst humble thy self before god whaÌ„ thou heardest his wordes against this place against the inhabitaÌ„tes therof huÌ„blest thy selfe before me tarest thy clothes and didst wepe before me I haue also heard it saith the Lord. Beholde I wil gather thee to thy fathers and thou shalte be put in thy graue in peace and thyne eyes shall not se al the euil which I wil bring vpoÌ„ this place vpon the inhabitants of the same He beyng frayed with the threatnynges of God had wepte and torne his clothes and therfore he was certifyed that he shoulde be taken awaye by deathe and so reste in peace that he shoulde not see all those euylles Ibi ergo sunt spiritus Defunctorum vbi non vident quaecunque aguntur aut eueniunt in ista vita hominum VVher the spirites of the godly be There therfore are the soules of theim that be departed where they doo not see all those thynges that are done or doo chaunce in the lyfe of men These are saint Augustines wordes who doth plainly denie that the blessed soules of the dead doo entermedle them selues to knowe and healpe the affaires of
the liuyng yea he dothe playnly affirme Sith that the dead sainctes knovve nothing of al that is done here it is in vain to pray vnto them QuestioÌ„ that they be vtterly ignorant what is don in the lyfe of men If this bee true as that can not be false which is proued by the holy scriptures truely the saluation necessitie either of the dead or of the liuyng is in vaine committed to the intercession of theim that know nothing therof We doo beleue in vayne that they doo pray vnto the Lorde for oure present necessite which know not that we are in any perill or daunger Didy And may not they haue intelligence vnderstandyng of our affaires eyther by the angels or by them that go away hence from vs or els by god himselfe Philalethes Answer Sithe that these wayes of reuelation are no where in the scriptures sett foorth vnto vs and therfore be most vncertaine Why should we It is folishnes to fly from that vvhich is certaine to â—hat vvhich is vncerâ—aâ—e I pray you flie from those thynges that are most sure most certaine and infallible vnto that which is doubtfull and not ones mencioned of in all the whole body of the scriptures Ye haue hearde how that this moste holy father sainct Augustine doth plainely confesse that the dead saintes doo not knowe our estate or the case that we bee in nor yet be careful ouer vs. Leauing then that whiche is without any grounde of the scriptures let vs stedfastly cleaue vnto that which is most surely grounded in gods boke wherin we are taught that the blessed soules of the elect and choseÌ„ of God do rest in peace beyng in glorie with their heade our sauiour Iesu Christ who alone is appoynted of god to be oure mediator aduocate and intercessor Albion But what will ye say to Hieromes clerkly sayenges ye see that he dothe plainly hold opinion that the dead saintes doo praye for vs. Philalethes As for Hierome Hovv Hierome dyd ouershote himself in this mater I doo with all due reuerento acknowledge him to do a most worthy instrument of God howbeit in this master he hathe declared him selfe that he was a man And verelye I doo meruayle that beeing so great a cleark as he was would buyld the doctrine of the praisyng of the deade saintes for vs vpon such weake argumentes For who wil say that the Saintes do nowe the same in heauen that they did in the erth But Hierome sayeth none other thing neither dothe he with any other arguments proue that the saints do pray for vs in heauen Hieromes vveake arguments Yf saieth he they did pray for vs in the earth how much more shall they do it now after their crounes Act. 27. victories and triumphes Yf two hundred lxxvi soules were geuen vnto Paule praiyng here in the earth how many mo shall be geuen vnto him praying now in heauen I graunte that god hath done good vnto men here in the earth through the ministery and praiers of his seruants VVhy god did good vnto men here in the earth by the ministerye and praiers of his seruauntes but to what ende I praye you euen to this ende that they should beleue the worde of god set foorth by his true ministers But the ministers dyd all with one doctrine teach vs to cal vpoÌ„ god only in al â—â—re necessities Nowe the doctrine of the praiers of the saints and of their intercession for vs in heauen doth pull vs away from god Hiero in Lâ—c 14. and causeth vs to put some truste hope and confidence in the creatures Which Hierome hym selfe doth stronglye impugne saiyng The righteousnes of the righteous shal bee vpon him and the wickednesse of the wicked shall remayne vpon him Euerye manne shall dye through his owne syn and euerye man shall liue through his owne righteousnesse Iohn 8. The Iewes do say in vayne â–ª Abraham is our father syth that they haue not the workes of Abraham Yf we should put our truste in any let vs put our trust in god liere 17. Psal 146. Cursed be euery man that putteth his trust in menne although they be saintes although they be prophetes We reade Put not your trust in men Again better it is to trust in god than in princes Not onely in the princes of the world but in the princes of the church whiche yf they be righteous they shall deliuer their owne soules onelye These are Hieromes woordes Let vs therfore hope in the lorde oure GOD and sith that we haue not one iote in the Canonicall Scriptures of the intercession of the Sainctes for vs in heauen nor any example that they do pray vnto the father for vs let vs boldely reiecting this idolatrous inuocation of the dead sainctes and the vaine and fonde doctrine of their intercession for vs vnto God cal vpon our heauenly father through his sonne Iesu Christ though an angell from heauen shoulde teache the contrarie I doo here let passe that in the boke which this holy father did write agaynste Vigilantius there is more furious bitternesse to bee founde than either modestie or learning whiche maye bee proued by the censure of Erasmus The censure of Erasmus vpon Hieromes booke against vigilantius whiche is this lo vigilantium ita conuitiis debacehator Hieronymus vt plusculum in eo modestiae eogar desyderare Vtinam argumentis duntaâ—at egisset à conuitiis temperasser That is Hierome doothe 〈◊〉 with reuilyng woordes raile against Vigilantius that I am fayne to fynde a larke of modestie in him would god he had onely soughten with argumentes and had refrained from reuilynge and opprobrious wordes For take away these railyng woordes Caupo Calagutitanus Dormitantius Herculis monstra Louiathan Behemoth The taunces of Hierom against vigilantius take away his chiâ—yng brawling and scoldyng take awaye his subtill conueâ—ance in the torrke Take awaye his exclamations translations tragicall amplifications his swellyng and braggyng wordes and nothing almost shal be left vnto the reader that hath anye sauor of the propheticall and apostolicall simplicitie Albion Obie 10 Yet this holy father dothe plainely affirme that the deuils dyd roare out at the relykes of Saint Andrew and that great myracles and wonders at the dust and ashes of the martyrs haue beÌ„ wrought and the vnclean spirites tormented Whiche thyng he dothe proue by the example of certaine emperors kynges and byshops saying If it be not laufull to shrine vp and to translate the relikes of the saintes then was Archadius with Constantine a sacriledge all the byshops were not only sacrileges but to be also coÌ„pted verye beastes foles which did cary so vile a thing and ashes in silke and in a golden vessell Philalethes As touchyng the firste Answer I answere that the diuels dyd not roare out because of saincte Andrewes drye bones VVhythe diuel did roaâ— ouâ—e at sainct An drevves reliâ—es but because of Christe whome the holy
Apostle Saint Andrew hadde preached And as touching the miracles wonders that he doth speake of who doth not see that thin good man hauyng forgotten hym selfe dyd attribute the same vnto the dead bones of the Saints which the true seruantes of god being aliue wold neuer haue suffred to be attributed vnto them Neither ought his examples to in due vs any thing For in receiuing or settyng out religion The facte of a priuate man in maters of religion proueth nothing the priuate facte or deede of men proueth nothyng unlesse it be manifest that it is wel done But that only is wel done which is boone by the auctoritie of the scriptures and not against the law of God Now if we shold reade the whole Bible ouer and call to remembraunce all the examples of the true and faithfull seruauntes of God mentioned of in the scriptures A poore helpe in tyme is muche vvaith we shall not fynde there one onely iote or syllable of the gatheryng translatyng or honoring of the relikes of the Sainctes DIDYMVS It semeth that ye do now condemne Constantine and Archadius and those godly byshops with Helenâ— the mother of Constantine the greate whose examples Hierome dooth bring foorth for the probatioÌ„ of his doctrine Philalethes It foloweth not because I do disalow their fact in this point that therfore I do vtterly condemne them or laye any sacriledge to their charge The holy Apostle doth write after this maner of his contreymen the Iewes Rom. 9. I beare them recorde that they haue a zeale of God but not accordynge to knowledge And I doo not doubt but that they dyd of a zeale that which they dyd but in the meane whyle they dyd minister a great occasion of stumblyng to theym that came after Whereby it foloweth that they synned greuously againste the Lorde 1 Ch. ca 17 The holye scripture doothe saye thus of Iosaphat And the Lorde was with Iosaphat because that he walked in the first wayes of Dauid his father and soughte not Baalim but sought the Lord GOD of his father and walked in his commandementes and not after the trade of Israell Agayne 1 Cht 20. he walked in the way of Asa his father and departed not there from doyng that which was right in the sight of God Howbeit the hye places were not taken away For the people had noy yet prepared theyr heartes vnto the god of their fathers Who wold vtterly condemne this holy prince for that error or lay any sacrilege to his charge But who would againe allowe that whiche he dyd So we ought not by and by to condemne those godlye princis Constantine and Archadius ConstaÌ„tine Arcâ—â—dius with the byshops muche lesse to laye sacrilege to their charge whom we beleue to be in blessedfulnes with their head and kyng our sauiour Iesu Christ Yet in the meane while we may not alowe that fact of theyrs for asmuche as it was withoute any warrant or example of the scriptures Gedeon Gedeon emong the Iudges of Israell was coumpted most vpright and moste godly and yet being caried away with to greate a zeale towarde religion he sinned moste greuouslye againste the Lorde his God For hauing gathered together of the pray of the ennemies earerynges and other lyke iewelles of golde he dyd make vnto hymselfe an Ephod VVould god al kinâ—e prinâ—es that in profeâ— Christe vvoulde maâ— this history not for to set vp a newe religion 〈◊〉 straunge worshipping but for a memoriall of the greate victorye that god had geuen him against his enemies At the first it did not seme to be any great offence but at length by the reason of it great Idolatry was coÌ„mitted in the lande as the holy scripture doth testify saiyng And all Israell wente a whoring after it in Ophra which was the destruction of Gedeon his house yf Gedeon hadde bene wyse he should haue asked councell of goddes worde and not folowed his good intente Yf those godly bishops emperours that Hierome doth speake of had asked couÌ„cell of the scriptures and had bene ruled by them they would not haue opened the sepulchres or graues of the dead nor yet set forth their bones to be worshipped For vnto whom of the Saintes either in the new or in the olde Testament was euer this done Eutra Yf men would haue conteÌ„ted them selues with the same rule that God hath prescribed vnto vs in his worde and wyth the laudable examples of the same such inconueniences would not haue groweÌ„ in the chirch nor yet could such abhominable idolatry haue takeÌ„ place amoÌ„g christen meÌ„ as we se now to reigne almost in al places Ph This shal wee fynde written of Moises Den. 34. The historie of the death and buryeng of Moses So Moyses the seruant of the lord died there in the lande of Moab according to the worde of the lorde and he buried him in a valley in the lande of Moab ouer against Beth-peor but no man knoweth os his sepulchre vnto this daye Yf the taking vp translating of dead mennes bodies had bene expedient for the glory of God for the saluatioÌ„ of men verely the lord wold not haue hidden such pretious relikes of his well beloued and faithfull seruant For without all controuersye Moses was the chiefest amonge all the prophetes of whoÌ„ we do rede after this manner Nume 12 Yf there bee a prophete of the lord among you I will be knowen to him by a vision will speake vnto him by dreame My seruant Moses is not so who is faithfull in all mine house Vnto hym will I speake mouth to mouth and by vision and not in darke woordes but he shal see the similitude of the lorde Thys place doth the holye Apostle aleadge in his epistle to the Hebrues And yet for all this Moises beynge suche a man is neyther translated nor layed vp in a golden or syluer shrine ther is no chapel nor church builded for him he is not caried about in processioÌ„ among a sorte of superstitious menne Ther were some at that time that would gladly haue doone it and woulde haue spared no cost at all Do we not rede in the Apochryphes that ther was a strife betwixt the aungelles and the diuel about the body of Moses whereof Iude maketh mention in his Epistle And doubtles Iudes pâ—stle this was because that the diuel would kepe aboue the grounde the body of the faithful seruant of god and bring it foorth vnto superstitious men for to be worshipped â–ª which thinge the good angels perceauing what abhominable idolatrye would haue risen thervpon would in no wise suffer hauing a respect vnto the glory of God and to mens saluation which next vnto gods glorye they do seeke aboue al thyngs Albion Do we not reede in the first boke of Moses that the Israelites did enbaâ—â— the bodye of Ioseph did put it vp in a cheste in Egipt This I am sure is an exaumple of
the Canonical scriptures Phâ— Answer I do not denye it But no man is able to proue that the Israelites kepte the body or bones of Ioseph for to haue them to be worshipped For no maÌ„ did fal or knele doun before Iosephs tomb no man did bring the cheste that his body or bones were in into the Tabernacle no man did light candels or tapers beefore it But Ioseph woulde by thys meane confirme and establish the faith of his people in the promisses of gâ—d 〈…〉 â—ouching the lande of be heste For so doth Ioseph say to his bretherne I am redy to dye and god will surely visite you and brâ—ng you out of this laÌ„d vnto the land whiche hâ— sware vnto Abraham vnto Isaac vnto Iacob And Ioseph toke an other of the children of Israell saying God will surely visite you and yâ— shal cary my bones hence Paule beynâ— a faithfull expositour of this facte or dede of Ioseph by faith Hebr â—1 saith he Iosephe when he died made mention of the departing of the children of Israel and gaue coâ—â—aundement of hys bones That is because he doubted nothing of the worde and promise of god therfore did he coÌ„maunde his brethern at their goyng out of Egipt to cary out his bones into the land of ChanaaÌ„ So sure was he that the lord would according vnto his promises bring the children of Israell oute of Egipte into the lande that he had promised vnto their forefathers After Moses there were none among the prophets more samoê° ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ of greatter renoune than Samuell and Hâ—lias were Samuel Helias 〈…〉 5 2 Kâ—n 2. Yet we do not reede that any memoriall was appointed or set vp for him For the holye scripture doth plainly speak of his death and buriyng after this maner Samuell died and all Israell dyd gather them selues together and did wepe for him did bury him in his house in â—ama 〈…〉 As for Helias he was taken vp in a syâ—e chariot not into a temple made with handâ—s but into heaueÌ„ partly that in that exâ—mple we myght haue a most infallible testimony of our immortality and of that moste excellente reâ—aâ—de that GOD hathe prepared and layed vp for his faythfull prophetes and partelye that by this meane all occasion of worshipping this holy prophetes body might be taken away Some of the anciente writers are of opinion that the body of the blessed virgin Marye Epiphani was either by the angels caried vp into heauen or els by their ministery buried in such a place as is knowen vnto no maÌ„ vnto this day because that god would not haue that chosen vessel the temple of his holy spirit and the mother of his onely begotten sonne to be made anidole of superstitious and euill disposed persons The holy scripture doth speak thus of Eliseus the prophete Elizeus â— Kin 13. And Elizeus died and they buried him And certaine bandes of the Moabites came in to the lande that yere And as they wer burying a man beholde they sawe the souldiours therfore they did cast the man into the sepulchre of Elizeus and wheÌ„ the man was doune and touched the bones of Elizeus he reuiued or lyued again and stoode vpon his fete And yet we rede not that after this miracle the bones of Elizeus were taken vp and translated or that there was anye pylgrimage appoyncted vnto theym or a churche of S. Elizeus buylded and set vppe We rede in Ecclesiasticus or in the booke of Iesus the sonne of Syrach that after Elizeus death Eccl. â—8 his body prophecied and that as he did wonders in his lyfe so in deathe were his workes merueylous And that yet for all thys the people repented not nor departed from their sinnes VVhy the dead that â—â—a caste in to â— Elizeus â—â—auâ— taâ—eâ— againe It doth appeare theÌ„ that this miracle was not doone for to teach the people to worship or to geue godly honour vnto the faithful seruantes of god but that therby the auctoritye of Elizeus whose doctrine in hys life thei conteÌ„ned might be confirmed that at this sight they might embrace the same doctrine and turn again vnto the lorde their god with all spede and so escape the destruction that honge ouer their heades for their stubburnesse disobedience and rebellioÌ„ 1. Kin. â—â— Vnder that most holy godly prince Iosias when the bones of the fals prophets were breÌ„t the sepulchre of the maÌ„ of god was not ones touched yet we rede not that there was any pilgrimage vsed to it Obâ—e 12. Dâ— All these examples are only examples of the olde Testament But what exaumples can ye bring out of the neue PHILA Answer Math. 11. Math 14. Act. â— Among them the are borne of womeÌ„ there arose not a greater as oure sauiour Iesus Christ doth testifye him self than Iohn Baptist But the holy euangelist S. Mathew writeth thus of him And when Iohn was beheaded his disciples came and toke vp his body and did bury it Of Stephen the first martir of Christe Luke in the Actes of the Apostelles doth write on this manner And certayne men fearing god caried Stephen among theym to be buried made great lamentation for him Yf the taking vp or translating of the bodies of the dead Saincts had ben profitable vnto the churche of Christe neyther the olde ancient churche that was afore him nor yet the primitiue church that was nexte after him shoulde haue wanted it or bene without such honoring of the faithfull seruantes of god if god would haue them to be honored after the same sorte Therfore lette no man maruell that I will in no wyse alowe the doynges of kinges and princes and of bishops which be contrarye to the scriptures and worde of god and that I do vtterly reiecte the argumentes of Hierome The auctoâ—â— of â—od 〈…〉 as both weake and repugnant vnto goddes holy and sacred booke the warraunt and auctoritye of which ought to be preferred before the autority of aungels much more then before the auctoritie of corruptible and mortall men I would wyshe that leauing the bodies of the dead Saintes in the place appointed of God for theym there to reste in peace and in hope of their glorious rising again we should haue in due reuerence their true reliks whiche are 〈…〉 the exaumple of theyr stedfast fayth and beliefe their godlye lyfe and conuersation and theyr sound doctrine that they haue left behynd them for our instruction and the edifiyng of the true church of god Albion I maruell that ye do so stoutly defend Vigilantius Doth not this holy father and doctour of the holy catholike church I pray you lay to his charge that he did rayse vp againe and reuiue the heresy of the Caines whiche as a Scorpion did venime the whole body of the churche It appeareth by the booke whyche Tertullian dydde write of heresyes Teâ—â— li. haâ—â— where he speaketh of the errours of the Ophites
For in his sermon de lapsis he saithe playnely thus God onely can haue mercye He onely can geue pardon to the synnes that are committed against him which did beare our synnes which did sorow for vs whoÌ„ god did deliuer for our sinnes Man can not be greater than god nor yet remit or forgeue that by his owne indulgeÌ„ce or pardon which with a heinous faute is committed againste the lord lest this also be imputed vnto him for a greater crime or offerd if he shold be ignoraunt that it hath bene said before Huc â— Math. â— Mat. 8. luke 9 Cursed be euery man that putteth no truste in man The lorde oughte to be prayed to the lorde ought by our satisfaction to be pleased whiche sayeth that he will denye him of whome he is denied and which alone hath receiued all iudgemeÌ„t of the father And to those doth he adde by and by Although the workes of the rightuous doo auayle muche beefore the iudge yet the same whiche is promised by mans promisse is not by and by granted by the diuine maiestie of GOD. Noah Gene. 6. Daniell Danie 6. What was more rightuous then Noah who when the earthe was replenished with sin was sounde alone to bee righteous What was stronger than Daniell to suffre martyrdome throughe the constancye and stedfastnesse of his faith more fortunate through the fauor of God who as ofteÌ„ as he did combate he dyd ouercome and when he dyd ouercome he dyd ouerlyue what was more prompt and redy in workes than Iob Iob. stronger in tentation more pacient in sorowe more lowly and humble in feare truer in faithe and yet if they had prayed God sayd he woulde not haue graunted them their petition for when Ezechiell prayed for the synnes of the people When a lande saith he synneth against me by committyng a trespasse then will I stretche oute myne hande vppon it Eze. 14. and will breake the staffe of the bread thereof and wil sende famine vpon it and I wil destroy man and beaste foorthe of it Though these three menne Noah Daniel and Iob were amonge theym they shoulde deliuer but their owne soules by theyr owne righteousnes they shoulde saue neither sonnes nor daughters but thei alone should be saued And so al that is asked is not in the preiudice and power of him that asketh but in the wil of him that geueth neither dothe mannes sentence or iudgemente challenge or claime here any thyng vnto it selfe onlesse the diuine censure doth graunt it And a litle after They can do nothyng against the Gospel which for the gospel are made martirs Let no man well beloued brethern defame the dignitie of martirs lett no man destroie theyr glories and crounes The strength of the incorruptible faith remaineth safe neither can he say or doo any thyng against Christ whose whole hope faith and glorie A short exposition of Cyprians vvordes is altogether in Christ Eutrape If the Lord onely can geue pardon of sinnes if the seruaÌ„t can not forgeue that whiche is coÌ„mitted against the maister if he be accursed the putteth his trust in man if the Lord not a creature ought to be prayed vnto if that which is asked doth not slande in the will of the asker but in the will and pleausre of the geuer if they that are most righteous shall onely delyuer them selues and not their sonnes daughters if the martyrs saye or doo nothing agaynste Christ how muche I beseche you can they gather out of the authorite of Cyprian for to confirme their doctrine of their idolatrous inuocation of the saintes If all thinges be well considered this semeth rather to haue escaped him thaÌ„ otherwise This is much like â—nto the commâ—ne saying â—od hâ—ue mercy on his soule Au. de pastoribus cap 8. Psal 121. wheÌ„ he did thus of a ferueÌ„t loue write to his frend and brother in Christ Cornelius The feruent loue I saye that he bare vnto hym dyd by a certayne violence extorte this of him PHILALE Ye shall also heare what Saincte Augustine in his booke De Pastoribus sayeth There bee also sayeth he good mountaynes I haue lyfted vp myne eyes vnto the Mountaines from whence helpe shall come vnto me My helpe sayeth he is frome the LORDE whyche made heauen and earth Do not thinke that thou doest any iniury vnto the holy mountaynes when thou sayest My helpe is not in the mountaynes but my healpe is frome the Lorde whiche made heauen and earthe The mountains their selues doo crie out the same vnto thee He was a mouÌ„tain that did cry out I heare that there bee scismes or diuisions among you so that euery one of you dooth say I am Paules I am Apollos 1. Corin. â— I am Cephas I am Christes List vp thine eies vnto that mouÌ„taine heare what he saith and remain in hym Heare also what folowethe Whether was Paul crucified for you Therefore when thou haste lifted vp thyne eies vnto the mountaines from whence helpe commeth vnto thee that is vnto the authors of the scriptures harken vnto hym that with al his marow that with all his bones doth crye out Lorde who is lyke vnto the that thou beeyng sure or certified mayste without any iniurie of the mountains say My helpe commeth from the lorde which hath made heauen and earth It shal be so farre of that then the mountaines will be angrye with thee that then they wil both loue fauor thee the more Yf vve put our trust in the faithâ—â—l seruantes of god then vvill 〈◊〉 be inâ—â— vvith 〈◊〉 Reue. 12. Yf thou dost put thy hope in theÌ„ then wil they be sory The angell which did shew many heaueÌ„ly woÌ„derful things vnto man was worshipped of maÌ„ but the aungell reuoking him vnto the lorde as he was lyftynge vp his eies vnto a mountaine saide Do it not worshyp hym For I am thy felowe seruaunt and of thy brethren Obie 14 What I beseche you could be spoken more plainly thaÌ„ this All our helpe is from God who in all perilles must be called vppon If thou puttest thy hope in God the saintes doo loue thee Au. conâ—â—â— faustruÌ„ Mâ—â—iâ—n Answer 〈…〉 in my boke 〈…〉 â—â—lleâ— the oueâ—th◠〈…〉 the 〈…〉 of vvâ—â—kes yf thou puttest thy confidence in them they are sory Alb. Yet this holy father writingâ— Cotia Faustum Manichaeum dooth say that the christian people dyd celebrate and keepe together the memories of martirs both to stirre them vp to â—â—â—ation or folowyng of theym and that they might haue felowshippe with their merites and be helped by their prayers PHILA As concerning meâ—â—â—s â—e haue sufficiently spoken of them in our coÌ„munication and talke that we haue had alredy touching the ouerthrow of the Iustification of workes and of the vaine and fonde doctrine of the Merites of men and therfore we will come to this where he saithe And that wee may be helped by their prayers Didy There mee thinke Augustine doothe playnly affirme
temple not made wyth handes Ibi. ca. 16. And in an other place yf therfore any angels wil haue sacrifices to be offred vnto theÌ„selues they that wyl haue the sacrifice to be offred not vnto them selues but vnto god the creator of all thinges whom they do serue are to be preferred before them For hereby do they shewe howe syncerely they loue vs when by the sacrifice they wil assubiectize vs not vnto theim selues but vnto him by the contemplation of whoÌ„ they are blessed and seke that we shoulde come vnto him from whome they neuer wente awaye Although thys hadde bene sufficiente for to aunswer al the obiections that caÌ„ be made of the angels yet wil I for to make the matter more plain adde these few wordes that is to saye howe that the same is many tymes attributed vnto aungels as vnto the farther cause whiche in dede doth properly perteyn to god only but is attributed vnto the angels as to ministers instrumentes and meanes Di. I do not well vnderstande what your meaning is Exod. 23. Hovv the name of god 〈◊〉 in hâ—â—â—â—â—ed Philalethes I shall make you anone to vnderstande it In Exodus the lorde dothe with exprsse wordes speake thus of his angel My name saieth he is in him that is I wil geue hym myne autoritye and whatsoeuer he shall do he shall doo it in my name he shall do it by my vertue and power So doth holy Stephen speak also And when fourty yeres were expired Actu 7. ther appeared to him in the wildernesse of Mount Syna an aungell of the lorde Exo 3. Then by and by dothe he adde And the voyce of the lorde came vnto hym saying I am the god of thy fathers the god of Abraham the god of Isaac and the GOD of Iacob Loe he dothe expresselye calle hym GOD whome he hadde already called an aungel because that he vnderstode that the aungell dydde all whyche he dydde in the name of God and at hys commaundement EVTRAPELVS Sith that this aungell dothe call hym selfe God I doo stedfastelye beeleue that he was Chryste The angel of the gâ—â— câ—unsaile the angeâ—â— of the testament Augu. lâ— que â—â— ex odâ— 2. c. 3. the mediatour who is the eternall God and who in the scriptures is called Angelus magni consilii angelus Testamenti that is to say the aungell of greate counsell and the aungell of the Testamente Philalethes Ye doo not beleue amysse For Sainct Augustine in his questions vppon Exodus dothe write of it on thys manner The Lord cried vnto him oute of the bushe The lord in the angell or that lorde the aungell which is called the aungell of greate counsayle â–ª Tertullâ—â— contra â—â—xeam and so Chryste is vnderstanded whervnto maye bee added the sayings of Tertullian in hys boke contra Praxeam It is the sonne sayth he who at the begynnyng dydde condemne that moste proude towre dashyng out and destroying the tongues punnishyng the whole worlde wyth violence of waters raynynge fyre and brymstone vpon Sodome Gomorre beyng GOD of God For he dyd always come down to speake wyth men from Adam vnto the Patriarches and prophets in vision in dreame c. Sith then that this angell of the testament whiche is Christe was promised vnto Abraham Israell coulde no better expresse the faith of his mynd than with these wordes The aungell which hath deliuered me from all euill blesse these children For he vnderstode the angel of great counsaile euen the Lord Iesus who alone is the blessyng saluation righteousnesse and sanctification of his people Albion But what saye ye to that which I alledged out of Zacharie For there he doothe with expresse wordes testifie that the angell prayed vnto God for the delyueraunce of the people if the angels do pray for vs The place of the first chapter of zacharie why shoulde not the blessed soules departed pray also for vs Phil. What if by the same angell we should vnderstand our sauior Iesu Christe who as mediatour prayed for the saluation of his Churche whiche was then troubled when all the countreyes aboute them Hieron in zacharia were at rest Hierome hym selfe writyng vpon this place doothe by the angell of the Lord who stode among the myrre trees who vpon the occasion of the aunswere which they had made whome the lorde had sent throughoute al the whole worlde began so ernestly to praye for Hierusalem and the cities of Iuda vnderstande the aungell of great counsayl Again let vs by waye of disputation graunt that the angels do praye or are carefull for vs. Shal ye bee able to proue by it that we oughte therfore to call vpon them and displacyng Christ the onelye mediatour bewixt god and men to make theim our mediatours aduocates intercessors or that the blessed soules departed doo make intercession for vs vnto our heauenly father Ye haue learned beefore out of Sainct Augustine that the holy aungels will in no wise suffer that any sacrifice shoulde be offred vnto theym The holye aungels vvil haue no sacrifices to bee offered vnto them ergo they vvil not be praied vnto but will haue all sacrifices to be offred vnto him onely whose seruaunts they are Nowe it is moste playne that the prayers of the faithfull congregation are called sacrifices the aungels then who do onely seeke the glorye of him whome they doo serue will in no wise suffer that the faithfull congregation shold maâ—e any prayers vnto them Moreouer what should the carefulnes or praiers of the aungelles profite vs excepte we be firste reconciled vnto god Exo. 33. The lorde said vnto Moises Departe go vp from hence thou and the people whiche thou hast brought vp out of the laÌ„d of Egipt into the land which I promised vnto your forefathers and I will sende myne aungel before thee For I will not go vp with thee because thou arte a stifnecked people lest I consume thee in the waye Here the lorde promised vnto Moises vnto the people hys anâ—el but hear what foloweth streight waies after And wheÌ„ the people heard these euill tydinges they sorowed and no man did put on his best raymentes The scriptures do cal the helpe and assistaunce of the aungels euill tydings as longe as god is angry with vs and not yet reconciled Therfore Moyses doth laboure as much as in hym lieth yea it is all his study and care that god may be reconciled vnto hys people Whiche thing he goeth not aboute to obtayne by desyrynge the aungelles to praye for him and the people but by pouring oute his whole harte beefore God Now they that are reconciled vnto God doo vnderstande that they are through Christ reconciled to him Therfore they doo whollye depende vppon God onely in hym onely doo they reioyce in hym only haue they theyr hole affiance and truste they haue no neede of the intercession of angels but doo offer vnto God onely their troubled spirit their contrite
and humbled hart Which pleaseth the angels excedingly well Christ him self saying in his gosspel that the angels doo reioyce at the conuersion of sinners Let vs therfore endeuor our selues that we may turne a right vnto the Lorde be reconciled â—â—â—o him which thyng muste be doone not by the intercessioÌ„ of angels but by the grace onely and intercession of our sauior Iâ—sus Christ Are not all angels ministring spirites Hebr 1. sent foorth to minister for their sakes that shal be heires of saluation Why do we not then rather worship call vpon the lord of angels and of men than vpon mens felow seruantes Reue. 22. When Iohn had fallen downe at the feete of the aungell this do oth he heare of the angel Se thou do it not for I am thy felow seruant and of thy bretherne the prophetes and of theim that kepe the wordes of this boke â–ª worship God Albion Ye haue not yet answered to the wordes of Iacob where he saith And let my name the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac bee called vpon them My faithfull guydes did say vnto me that this is as much as if he should haue said And they shal cal vpon my name vpon the name of my forfathers Againe They dyd alledge that when Moyses prayed for the people he did speake these wordes Exo. 34 RemeÌ„ber O Lord thy seruantes Abraham Isaac and Iacob vnto whom thou did dest sweare by thine owne selfe Lo say they Moyses prayenge for the people dooth pray by the name of the holy patriarches that were dead 4. Kin. 1â— These ar also the wordes of the Lord. I will defend this Citie and saue it for myne owne sake and for Dauid my seruantes sake Is it not moste plaine by this that for the prayers and merites of the Sainctes synners are spared wholle nations and cities saued and preserued PHILALE You re blynde guydes through ignoraunce of the holy tongue gather of a thynge misvnderstanded VVhy Iacob vvilled that his name should bee called vpoÌ„ Ephraim and Manasses vvhâ—t his meaning vvas Esa 4. a folishe and fonde conclusion or rather a false and erronious doctrine Iacob otherwise called Israell did by adoption receaue Iosephes children in to the numbre of his owne children that they mighte haue equall or euen portion of the lande of behest with them And therfore sayeth Iacob they shall beare my name and not the name of my son Ioseph they shall be called Iacobs or Israels children and not Iosephs This shall we fynde written in Esay the prophete Then shall seuen wiues take holde of one man and say we will lay all our meate and clothing together in commune tantum nomen tuum inuoce tur super nos onely let thy name be called vpon vs that is onely let vs be called thy wiues and beare thy name and so take away from vs oure opprobiousnes and shame By as good reasoÌ„ may we by this text of Esay proue that women ought to call vppon the names of theyr husbandes when they be deade as they canne by the texte that they doo alleadge proue that Ephraim and Manasses Iosephs children ought to haue called vpon the name of Iacob Danic 9. Abraham and Isaac Dominc saith Daniel respice ciuitatem super quam inuocatuÌ„ est nomen tuum lord looke vpon the citye that thy name is called vpon that is which is called by thy name I mean the city of god In like maner doo they declare their blinde ignoraunce when they do bringe in for the mayntenance of theyr idolatrous inuocation of the deade Saintes Hovv the place brought out of the 32. chap. of Exodus ought to be â—nderstanded these woordes of Moyses remember O Lorde Abraham Isaac and Iacob asthough thys were like vnto that which they haue continually in their mouthes sayinge Sainct Abraham ora pro nobis sainct AbrahaÌ„ praye for vs or obteine by thy prayers merites that god vouchesafe to forgeue vs oure synnes Esa 63. It is easye to see in the prophete Esay how little they did trust in the merites and intercessions of the forefathers For there the hole churche crieth out saying Where is thy zeale thy strength the multitude of thy mercies of thy coÌ„passions they are restrained from me Doubtlesse thou art our father For Abraham knoweth us not neither is Israell acquainted with vs but thou Lorde art our father and redemer and thy name is euerlasting Therfore Moses dyd not call vppon them whom he knowe right well to be ignorant of the estate that they were in but vpon the true liuyng God our heauenly father puttyng hym in remembrance of his promises For with expresse wordes he sayth Remembre thy seruants vnto whom thou hast sworne by thy selfe and vnto whom thou hast saide he saith therfore remeÌ„bre our fathers because the God had with an othe promised vnto the fathers that he would be the god of their sede And of this promise doth he put god in remembrance now at this present And hereunto semeth that to pertaine whiche the Lord himselfe dooth speake in Exodus The Lord god of your fathers Exod 3. the God of Abraham the God of Isaac and the God of Iacob hath sent me vnto you This is my name foreuer and my memoriall frome generation to generation Therfore God would be so called and prayed vnto that is he would be put in remembraunce of his promises not for his owne but for our own sake But now that we haue our sauior Iesus Christ in whose blood both the promises and couenant be established and sealed vp in whose name should we offer vp oure prayers vnto God but in his onely Albion What say ye to the last sentence ye haue not yet aunswered to it Philalethes It may be aunswered two maner wayes Firste The expositâ—â— of the place that 〈◊〉 ale aâ—â— out of 4. Kâ—â— 19. 2 Sam 7. we must consider the promisse of God that he made vnto Dauid touching the seede that shold come of hym and the stablenesse and eternitie of his kyngedome The wordes of the promyse are these Whenne thy dayes bee fulfylled thou shalte sleape with thy fathers and I will lett vp thy sede after thee whiche shall procede out of thy body and will establishe his kyngdom c. These thinges are expounded by many of kynge Salomon and of his reigne or kyngdomme but no manne will denie but that the same may be vnderâ—â—anded of the sede of Dauid or of his posteritie or other kinges that oâ— folow after him For this is moste manifest and playn that for this promise sake many kynges and the whole realme were spared 1. Kin. 15. In the historie of Abiah this promisse was renewed For so we reade there And the hart of Abiah was not perfect with the Lorde his God as the hart of Dauid his father But for Dauids sake the Lorde his god did geue hym a light in Hierusalem and did set vp
his sonne after him and established Ierusalem Now this is asmuch as if he had saied Therefore God dyd not destroy Abiah his kyngdome and the citie of Hierusalem because that God had promised that he would not take away his mercy from the house of Dauid nor suffer that he should want sede or posteritie or that his kingdom shold vtterly decaye It is then euident and plaine that Abiah was spared for the promise sake that was made vnto Dauid 4. Kin. 19 therfore it must folowe necessarily that Ezechias was also spared for this promise sake and that these sentences or sayenges I will defend this citie for myne own sake and for Dauid my seruauntes sake and I will defende this citie for myn own sake for myn own promisse sake which I made vnto Dauid be equipollent or of one force Secondly thus may the answer be made that God did spare bothe that city realm for his owne sake and for his Christes sake For the Prophetes are wont by a figure called Antonomasia to cal our sauiour Iesu Christ Dauid Antonomasia And the promise wherof we spake before was in very deede completed or fulfylled in Christ Thus dothe the Lord speake in Ezechiell I will sayeth he raise vp a shepeheard ouer them Eze 34. and he shal fede them euen my seruant Dauid he shall fede them he shal be their shepheard And I the Lord will be their God and my seruant Dauid shal be the prince among them I the Lorde haue spoken it Hie. 23. The like place shall ye fynde in Ieremie But none of all the expositors dyd expounde these places otherwyse than of Christ the Gospell of Iohn doothe manifestely declare that these Scriptures oughte to be expounded of Christ Therefore the Lorde spared Hierusalem for the Lorde Iesu Christes sake whome it behoued to be manifested in that citie and his name and doctrine frome thens to bee published throughout all the whole world Therfore Daniell the prophete prayeng vnto the Lorde for the repairing of the citie and of the temple Danie 9. maketh his praier after this sort Heare O our God the prayer of thy seruaunt make thy face to shyne ouer the sanctuarie whiche is destroyed for the lorde sake As yf he shoulde say Oure maners oure life and conuersation did deserue other wyse but yet remembre the lorde thy Christ whome thou hast promysed vnto vs. Esa 2. For by Esaie and Micheas he hadde made this promise It shal be in the laste dayes that the mountayne of the house of the lorde shall bee prepared in the toppe of the mountains and shall bee exalted aboue all the hylles and all nations shall slow vnto it And many people shall go and saye Come and lette vs come vp to the mountaine of the lorde to the house of the God of Iacob and he will teache vs his wais and we wille walke in his pathes for the lawe shall go foorthe of Sion and the woorde of the lorde frome Hierusalem Whenne we doo then by Dauid vnderstande oure sauioure Iesu Christe who in Esaie is of GOD called his seruaunt we brynge no newe exposition nor yet wraste the Scriptures but sette foorthe the playne sense and meanyng of the holy ghoste to the greate commendation of the glorie of oure Sauioure Iesu Christe Albion Obie 16 Iob. â— These woordes shall ye fynde written in Iob Calle nowe yf any wyll answere thee and turne thee to somme of the Sainctes Here are we expressely commaunded in oure troubles and afflictions to turne our selues to the saintes Didymus I thought that there had bene no place in all the whole scriptures so playne for the praying vnto the Sainctes as the sames is Answer The fondnes of the aduersaries in aleaging of the scriptures Philalethes And I thought that the ennemies of the truthe had neuer ben so foolishe as to haue aleaged that place for the maintenaunce and confirmation of their doctrine For there they shoote altogether besydes the cusshion not marking to what ende Eliphas dooth speake those woordes Ye shall therfore vnderstand that Iob didde affirme that plagues and calamities dyd not alwayes happen for synne whiche thynge he proueth by his exaumple The true seÌ„se of the place that they do aleadge out of the .5 of Iob For the Lorde sayth he hath not brought me into this calamitie because of my sinnes but accordyng to his good wil and pleasure This will not his aduersaries admitt and specially Eliphas who goeth aboute to proue that no calamitie hapneth to any man but onely for his sinnes and that no man is punished but onely for his faulte prouyng besydes that all men are synners and that no man is cleane in the syght of God although few do acknowledge the same geuyng in the meane whyle a priuie nippe vnto Iob although he did not acknowledge himself to be a sinner and this was because he vnderstoode not Iobs meaning and therfore they wer taken awaye and cut of in their ignorance That this might be made more plaine and manifest he speaketh vnto Iob after this maner Call any man that is name me any maÌ„ As if he shold say Bring me any man that hath not by his wyckednesse and heynous synnes deserued the calamitie that is com vppon him turne thee to any of them that be called Saintes meanyng that it was impossible for to fynde any in all the whole world which did not deserue by his owne sinnes to haue trouble aduersitie and affliction Albion Obie 17 Hiero. 15. What will ye say to these woordes of Hieremie Though Moses and Samuell stoode before me yet haue I no heart to this people Why say my geÌ„tylmen should Hieremie speake so of the deade excepte be knowe that they made intercession for the lyuyng Philalethes Answer I may a great deale better reason after this maner Sith that neither Moses nor Samuell dyd praye for the people of Israell in that extreme peryll that they were in it appereth that there was then no intercession of the deade For who of all the Sainctes should haue takne thought for the people if Moses didde not Who in this thyng dyd exceede and passe all men whiles he dyd lyue Therefore thus I say I myght make myne argument agaynst you and your gentylmen In the extreeme necessitie of the people Moses made no intercession for theim it is moste lykely then that none at all dyd make intercession for theim The 〈◊〉 mâ—â—â—t of the papists 〈…〉 and beaten 〈◊〉 on â—â—eir heades sithe that Moses dyd passe al men in humanitie gentilnesse and mercy The meanyng of the prophete then was this that God was so offended with the people that he wold in no wise spare them though Moyses and Samuell whose prayers he was wonte to heare aboue all other should make intercession for them The like in a maner haue we in the prophete Ezechiell Ezâ—â—4 where the lorde speaketh on this maner If Noah
Daniel and Iob were in the citie as truly as I lyue they shall delyuer neyther sonnes ne daughters but saue theyr owne soules in their rightousnesse As if he should say Thoughe Noah Daniell and Iob were then alyue again and made intercession for the people they shoulde not delyuer theyr owne sonnes and daughters but should saue onely theyr onwe lyues in they righteousnesse my wrathe and indignation is so kyndeled agaynst that stiffe-necked people And so the afore alledged place of Hieremye oughte to bee vnderstanded For the woordes are as muche as if he shoulde say Though Moyses and Samuell wer nowe aliue and stoode before me makynge intercession for this people as they were wonte to dooe yet woulde I not for theyr sake withdrawe my plagues frome this wycked and frowarde generation I woulde not heare theym nor geue eares vnto theyr prayers but woulde in my furye destroye this rebellious and styffenecked people Reade and marke diligentely the circumstaunces of bothe places and ye shall fynde that this is the true sense and meanyng of theim ALBION Obiect 18 Psal 3â— Nowe wille I come to the holye Psalmist These are Dauids woordes I am sure I sayde I wylle confesse my synne vnto the LORDE and so thou forgauest the wyckednesse of my synne Pro hac orabit ad te omnis sanctus in tempore oportuno For this shall euerye Saincte make his prayer vnto thee in a tyme whenne thou mayst bee founde Agayne Psal 150. doothe not he wryte thus Laudate Dominum in sanctis eius Praise god in his saints Philalethes Answer And I say that by bringing in these testimonies or autorities of the psalmes they doo most manifestly beewraye their impudent and shamelesse ignorance Hovv the place aleaged out o the 〈◊〉 pâ—aâ— ought â—o be taken For when Dauid had reasoned of the remission of synnes and had appointed him self an example vnto other and had said I haue confessed my sinne vnto the lorde and thou hast forgeuen the wickednesse of my synne he did adde by and by Many holy and godly men shal be prouoked by this example of mine to call after the same sort vpon god for the pardonne and forgeuenesse of theyr synnes in a tyme when thou mayest bee founde Cypr an coÌ„tra dâ—metrianum For Cyprian writing against Demetrianus did saye very godlye Quando isthinc excessum fuerit nullus iam locus poenitentiae est nullê° satisfactionis effectus Hic vita aut amittitur aut tenetur Hic saluti aeternâ— cultu dei fructu fidei prouidetur That is to say After that we be departed hence there is no place of repentaunce no effecte of satisfaction Here the lyfe is eyther losse or holden here by the worshipping of god the fruite of faith euerlastyng saluation is prouided for Wherby we doo learne that as long as we be in this life wee maye throughe faithe in oure Sauiour Iesu Christ praye vnto God for the remission of oure synnes and that so longe God may be found but after that wee be ones gone neither repentaunce nor yet praying vnto God for the remission of our sinnes can profite vs nothyng Didymus Obiect 19 But here he speaketh of the Saintes that being in heauen do pray vnto God for vs that of his goodnesse he wylle forgeue vs our synnes as he did vnto Dauid I am sure ye will not call them that are yet aliue and be subiect to all kinde of infirmities Saints For that pertaineth only to those blessed spirites and soules that be alredy in glorie with their head our sauior Iesu Christe Philalethes And in this do also the champions of the Romishe churche declare theyr wylfull blyndenesse Answer For in howe many places of the scriptures are the faithfull lyuyng yet here on the earth called Saintes The faithfull lyuing here on the earth are Rom 1. Act 9. Paul doth write to the sainctes that were at Rome These be also Ananias woordes in the Actes of Apostels Lorde I haue heard by many of this man how muche euill he hath done to thy Saints at Hierusalem and here he hath power of the high priestes to bynde all those that cal vpon thy name The tyme would not suffise to reherse all places of the Scriptures where the faithfull lyuing yet here in the earth be called Saints But ye shal heare what Saint Augustine sayth concerning this matter Augu. ii Psal 86. He writing vppon the psalmes doth aleadge these wordes of the Apostell And some of you were such but ye ar washed but ye are sanctified Si ergo eos sanctificatos dicit dicat vnusquisque fidelium Sanctus sum Non est ista superbia elati sed confessio non ingrati Si enim dixeris te saÌ„ctum esse ex te superbus ex Rursus fidelis in Christo membrum Christi si te non dixeris esse sanctum ingratus es That is yf he calleth them sacntified lette euery one of the faythfull saye I am a Sayncte Thys is not the pryde of hym that is pufte vppe but the confession of him that is not ingrate or vnthankefull For yf thou sayest that thou arte a Sayncte of thy selfe thou arte a proude manne Agayne beynge faythfull in CHRISTE The pope vvill scarcely alovve â—his doctrine for he is vvonte to canonize his sainctes an hundred yeres after they bee dead and a member of Chryste yf thou sayest that thou arte not a Sayncte thou arte ingrate and vnthankefull Saye vnto thy God I am a Saincte because thou haste sanctified me because I haue receaued it not because I hadde it because thou hast geuen it not because I haue deserued it For on the other side thou beginnest to doo iniurie vnto thy Lorde IESV CHRIST For yf al Christians and faythful and all they that bee baptized in hym haue putte hym on or are apparailed with him as the Apostell dothe saye As manye as are baptized in CHRISTE are apparayled with CHRISTE Yf they bee made members of his bodye and saye that they are not sainctes they dooe iniurie vnto the heade hym selfe whose membres are not hollye Nowe see where thou arte and take dignitye of thy heade Lette therfore euerye Christiane saye yea let the whole bodye of Christe crye oute whensoeuer it suffereth afflictions dyuers tentations and innumerable sclaunders Preserue my soule for I am a saynt Those wordes of saint Augustine are so plaine that they nede no exposition at al. Eutrapelus Som there be which to shewe a difference betwixt the Sainctes that are alredy in glorie with their head our sauior Iesu Christ and the Saintes that be yet alyue here on the earth doo in the Latine tongue call the one Diuos these are they that be alredy in heauen and the other Sanctos which ar they that be yet compassed aboute with the bodye of synne Albion Well be it so as ye saye But wherfore dothe the Psalmist write on this maner Laudate dominum in sanctis eius that is to
saye Praise God in his Sainctes The beâ—st liâ—â—s of the papists in aleaging the scriptures Philalethes Who wold not laughe at the beastlynesse of these blynde bussardes for if they will haue this sayeng Prayse the Lorde in his saynctes to bee lyke vnto this Call vpon the saâ—nctes of the Lorde then by as good reason we may say That the trumpette the viole and the harpe c. oughte to bee called vppon For it foloweth immediately after Prayse hym in the sounde of the trumpette in the violle and in the harpe But the Catholike veritie and truth dothe bothe reade and vnderstande the wordes of the prophete after this sorte Prayse the Lorde in his sanctuarie or in his hoynesse that is Prayse hym that dwelleth in heauen Psal 134. For in an other place he sayth Lifte vp youre handes vnto the sanctuary and praise the lord Whyche is as muche as yf he shoulde haue sayde Lyfte vp your handes vnto heauen and prayse the Lorde and geue hym thankes for his benefittes Whervnto the addeth with what instruments they wer wont to stirre vp the hertes of the people to sing prayses to be thankefull vnto the Lorde But nowe vnder Christ suche ceremonies of the olde lawe are cleane abolyshed Ob e. 20 aâ—â— 3 Didy I remembre that ones this place of Baruch was alleadged for the mayntenaunce of the inuocation of the Saintes O Lorde god almyghtie the God of Israell heare nowe the prayers of the dead Israelites and of their childreÌ„ which haue sinned before the and haue not hearkened vnto the voyce of thee their God therfore these plagues hang vpon vs. Albion If ye had not preuented me Answer I wolde haue alleged the same place For it seemeth vnto me to make muche for the purpose Of vvhat maner dead Baruch doth speak Philalethes Ye muste marke brother Albion that Baruch in his prayer speketh not of them that were dead with the bodyly deathe but of the wicked whiche lyuyng vnto the worlde were deade vnto God whiche figuratiue maner of speakynge is oftentimes vsed in the scriptures For in the gospell our sauiour Iesus Christ doothe saie Math. 8. Suffer the dead to burye their dead As if he shoulde saye Lette the worldlings that be dead to God and good woorkes burye theim that bee departed oute of this lyfe for that is an office moste mete for them but doo the thinges that be for the lyuing The like phrase or maner of speaking dooth the holy apostle vse 1. Tim. 5. when he sayth A wydowe lyuyng in delitiousnesse though she be alyue yet she is deade It is also oftentimes sene that in the thirde person we be wont to speake of our selues Baruch besydes by such kynde of wordes doothe sette foorthe the myserable estate of the childerne of Israell whiche were euen as deade menne here in the worlde because of their captiuitie and thraldome and straicte bondage or slauerie that they were in whych was vnto theym as a graue or pytte that the dead bee buried in Weyghe and consyder well the circumstances of the place and ye shall fynde it to bee so Didymus Obiec 11 2. Mach. 15 And what wyll ye say to this place of the seconde booke of the Machabees where we reade that Iudas Machabeus dyd see in a dreame Onias the prieste and Hieremie the prophete praying for the people whereof he was so sure that he tolde his dreame to the people to encourage theim withall against the terroure of theyr ennemyes PHILALETHES Answer This place hath neyther commaundemente nor yet sufficient exaumple but is onely a vysyon or dreame whereby it was represented that the people of the Iewes shoulde not bee forsaken of God For yf so bee that it had sette foorth the Intercession of Saynctes Iudas Machabeus woulde haue commended hymselfe vnto the praier of Onias and Hieremie whiche thyng he dothe note but in his greate danger and perill he fleeth vnto the true liuyng God onely saying O Lorde thou that didst send thyne aungell in the tyme of Ezechias kyng of Iuda who in the host of Sennacherib slewe an hundreth fourescore and fiue thousand Send new also thy good angell before vs O Lord of heauens The praier of Iudas Machabaeus for a feare and dread vnto them And let them be discoÌ„fited by the strength of thyne arme whiche come againste thyne holy people to blaspheme Howebeit no man coulde iustly blame me if I shold vtterly reiecte the place that is alleadged out of Baruch and oute of the seconde booke of the Machabees sithe that they be no Canonicall bokes but playne Apocryphes as in our talke of purgatorie it hath been sufficientely proued Reade the 3 dialogue of my huntyng of purgatorie vnto death and specially in the beginning of the thirde communication so that I shall haue no nede to repete the thyng any more sithe that all our talke touching that matter is set foorth in print Eutrapelus Me thynke it were a fonde thyng to grounde any doctrine vpon a dreame It is no vvisdâ—m to â—round any doctrin â—pon a dreame specially vpon such a dreame as the like is not ones mencioned of in all the whole bodye of the Canonicall scriptures Iudas Machabeus did think also in this his dreame that Hieremye dyd delyuer vnto him a golden sworde wherwith he should wound the aduersaries As he thenne receaued a golden swoord of Hieremie so did Onias and Hieremie pray for the people but he receaued onely the sworde in a dreame it foloweth then that the prayers of these holy men were also dreamish Philalet Adde therto these wordes of saint Augustine Augu cont a gaudenâ—◠〈…〉 li. 2. cap 1â— Non debemus quicquid in scâ—ipturis etiam dei testimonio laudatos homines fecisse legimus consentiendo approbare sed consyderando discernere adhibentes iuditium non sanc nostrae authoritatis sed scripturarum diuinarum That is to say we ought not to approue by consentyng whatâ—oeuer we reade to haue bene done by men though they be praised by the testimonie of the scriptures but with consyderyng to discern it bryngynge the iudgemente not of oure owne authoritie but of the holy scriptures By these wordes we do learn that we are not bound to folow whatsoeuer we fynd in the Scriptures to haue ben don by the men of God but fyrst we must try by the word of God whether it be well doon or not Albion Obie 22 Yet father Origen dooth alleadge this place for to proue the Inuocation of Sainctes by These are his woordes whyche ye shall fynd written in one of his fower homilies which are founde by by after the commentaries of Hierome whych he hath writen vpon Ecclesiastes Sed omnes sancti Origenes super cantâ—ca de precibus sanctorum in coelo qui de hac vita decesserunt habentes adhuc charitatem erga eos qui in hoc mundo sunt si dicantâ—r curam gerere salutis eorum
the priestes the people goe aboute all the places of prayers and dyd lye prostrate in suckeclothe before the shrines of the martirs and Apostles and did require helpe for hymselfe by the faithful intercession of the Saintes What will ye say now to this No man can deny but that this is a moste auncient hystorie Answer Antiquâ—â—â—â— vvithout trueth proueth nothing Eutrapelus I haue many tymes hearde oure brother Philalethes saye that antiquitie without a truthe or without a good foundation or grounde in gods booke proueth nothyng Againe when certaine arguments of Hierom wer discussed it was by sufficiente testimonies and authoritie of the scriptures proued that the examples of such kynges and bishoppes which are brought foorth without any authoritie of the scriptures doo in such weightie matters proue nothynge Ye do not reade in al the boke of God that any of the godly and faithfull kynges dyd euer lie prostrate before the shrines of the righteous and did craue for help by the faithfull intercession of the dead For they did all crye out My helpe is from the Lorde whiche made both heauen and the earth The Lorde shal preserue thee from all euyll the Lord shall kepe thy soule The Lorde shall keepe thy goyng out and thy goyng in frome hensefoorth worlde without ende The exposition of Ruffinus vvorâ—â—â— Philalethes Besydes Ruffinus wordes doo appeare to be suche that they ought rather to be vnderstanded of the intercession of the saints that were in the earth For it seemeth that the prince went about all the oratories or prayeng places where the congregation of the sainctes was assembled and that he dyd desyre the faithfull to praye most earnestly vnto god that he would vouchsafe to geue him the victorye and to preserue his empire to the commodity profite and vtilitie of many men The like in a manner haue we in the said Ruffinus li. 10. ca. 8 where wee haue these woordes In the meane while Constantinus trusting in godlines did euen in their own contrey subdue the SarmatiaÌ„s the Gothes other Barbarous contreys and nations those excepted which eyther by frendeship or by yelding of them selues did preuente peace And the more deuoutely and humbly he did submitte hym selfe vnto god the more God did subdue all things vnder hym He dyd also send letters to Antonie the first inhabitaunt of the wildernesse as vnto one of the prophetes desiring him that he woulde praye vnto the lorde for him and for his children So he did not onely study to be made commendable vnto god by his own merites and by the deuotion of his mother but also by the intercession of the Saints Mark how he did here take the intercession of the saintes neither doo I see any cause why wee maye not expounde that place touching Theodosius VVhat the vision of Theodosius doth signify of the intercession of the saints that were aliue here on the erth And where as they say that the Apostles Iohn and Phillip did appeare vnto Theodosius the emperour what shall they gather by it But that he was by such a vision certified of the victorye as Iudas Machabaeus was before by the appearing of Onias and Hieremy And therfore as Iudas Machabaeus dyd not call vppon Onias and Hieremie when he should ioygne in battail with his enemies but vpon the mighty Lorde of hostes In like maner Theodosius whan he sawe his souldiours turne their backes he prayed not vnto the Apostelles but vnto god sayeng O almighty god The prayer of Theodosius thou knowest that for to reuenge the iuste quarell of thy sonne Iesu Christ I haue taken in hande these warres yf it be otherwise poure thy vengeaunce vpon me But if trusting in thee and vppon a iust cause I am come hether retch forth thy right hand vnto thyne lest the gentils do say where is now their god Whereunto the same doth well agree whiche Saincte Augustine in hys fyfte booke of the city of god and .26 chapiter doothe write of this moste holy prince how that he did put his whole confideÌ„ce and trust in God as in his moste strong shield and bucklar and strong bulwark agaynst his ennemies Didymus Obie 26 The coÌ„mune people is wont to saye stil that it was a mery world when the holy virgin Mary and all the blessed sainctes in heauen were prayed vnto and woorshipped whervppon they doo gather God was well pleased withall els God would not haue sent vnto them such felicitie But nowe sens pylgremages prayeng vnto sainctes was put downe rhe worlde hath ben in all kynde of myserie Philalethes Answer Hiere 44 The lyke were they wont to lay to Hieremies charge vsing these stoute wordes agaynst hym The woorde that thou haste spoken to vs in the name of the Lorde we wil not here it of thee but we will doo whatsoeuer thyng goeth out of oure owne mouthe as to burne incense vnto the queene of heauen and to poure out drynke offringes vnto her as we haue doone bothe we and our fathers our kinges and our princes in the cities of Iuda and in the stretes of Hierusalem for then had we plentie of vitailes and were well and selfe none yll but sens we leste of to burne incense to the queene of heauen and to poure out drinke offerynges vnto her we haue hadde scarcenesse of all thynges and haue ben consumed by the sworde and famyne Do not I pray you the worshippers of dead Saintes make the lyke complaintes praisyng the felicitie of the olde world as they do terme it when al kynd of idolatrie did reigne The common complaint of idolaters But this is the commune coÌ„plaint of idolaters For both Demetrianus and the commune sorte of the heathen dyd lay to the christiaÌ„s charge that it was long of them that suche cruell warres did arise emong them that theyr catell dyed of the moreyn that they were plagued with pestilence and famyne and that they had vnseasonable weathers yea that all maner of plages that the world was plagued withall oughte to be impuded vnto them Cypr contâ—â— demetrianum But Cyprian doothe so answere to al these vaine obiections that his aunswere maye serue vs for to stoppe the mouthes of the vayne Papistes whiche nowe doo make so greate a brag of the felicitie of theyr idolatrous tyme. But leauing mens auctorities I wil shew how the lord him self doth answere or rather handel this obiection of the aduersaries in his prophete Osee For Osee 1. he sayth your mother hath played the harlot for she said I wil go after my louers that geue me my bread and my water my wol and my star myne oyle and my drinke And she did not knowe that I gaue her corn and wyne and oile and multiplied her siluer and gold whiche thei bestowed vpoÌ„ Baal Therfore wyl I return and take away my corne in the tyme therof my wyne in the sea son therof and wil recouer my wol and my flaxe lent to
to their owne reason the glorie of God should better be knowen if god were manyfested and reuealed rather by the liuyng and reasonable creatures than by the vnlyuyng and vnreasonable Wherin they doo woorke great vngodlynesse to their owne destruction Albion I heard ones this place alleadged but answere was made agayne Replye of the aduersaries Aunsvvere to it that Athanasius dyd write against the Gentils and heathen And that therfore this place maketh nothyng against them Philalethes And I say that as these wordes are written against the heathen so may thei be alleaged agaynst them that do bryng in the gentilisme or heathenyshe fashyons And what is seene I praye you in our pictures and ymages besydes the stuffe that they bee made of and shape that is geuen vnto them They say that the forme or shape that is geuen vnto them dooth signifie and teache But I wold fayne knowe of them The ymages do neither teache he learned not yet the vnlearned Ergo they â—e vnprofitable whome their ymages and pictures do teache the learned or the vnlearned I am sure they can not teache the vnlearned onelesse they haue an interpreter behynd them For the vnlearned without a teacher shall neuer bee able to learne what is signified or represented by the ymage of the virgine Mary nor yet by the ymage of the Crucifixe The learned hathe no neede at all to learne of pictures and ymages the same whyche he hathe moste certaynely learned by goddes woorde What shall they bee able to saye to his that the chiefest mysteries of our religion can be expressed with no colours For with what pencelle shall they bee able to expresse the vertue of oure redemption The chiefe misteries of our saluation can not be expressed by anye ymage the glorie of the life to come the imitation of vertues and the obedience of the woorde Lette vs therefore contente oure selues wyth the moste trewe Teacher I meane the holy ghost which doth teach vs with the worde of lyfe and with the Sacramentes ordeyned by the eternall wysedome of god Wherby all thinges perteining to our saluation my plainly be sette forthe vnto vs and receaued or vnderstanded of theym that be not voide of the spirite of god Dydimu Yet no answer hath bene made to this their obiection where they say that although it was not lauful in the olde time to expresse God with an ymage bicause he was not yet sene in a humain forme or shape yet sith beyng incarnated he was made lyke vnto vs in all thynges sinne onely beyng excepted it is laufull for to haue an ymage of hym Philalethes Answer to the .32 obiection Dan. c 7. What wyll they say to this place of Daniell The auncient of daies did sytte whose garment was white as snowe and the heares of his head lyke the pure wolle And by and by after As I behelde in visions by nyght beholde one lyke the sonne of man came in the cloudes of heuen and approched vnto the ancient of the dayes and they brought hym before hym Reade ye besides the 33. and fower and thirtie chapiter of Exodus and the sixte chapiter of Esaie In the meane while none of the auncient prophets or of the holy men of god did set vp an ymage vnto the father or vnto the sonne neither did attempt to represente hym by any symilitude or shape made after the lykenesse of man And what other thyng dyd lette them to doo it but the playnenesse of the commandement of God The sonne of god did not take vpoÌ„ him our frayle natâ—re to the ende that he should breake goddes lavve or be painted and the reuerence that they bare vnto it Neither did our sauiour Iesus Christ take vpon hym oure humaine nature for to breake the lawe of God or for to geue vnto paynters a paterne or profe of their arte but for to be the pledge of the grace of GOD of the eternall couenaunt and of the coniunction that is betwixt GOD and vs and that he myghte haue what to offer for vs for the price of our redemption declare what we mortall meÌ„ ought to hope for For therfore did he rise again and dyd carye vp into heauen the body that he toke of vs that we shoulde beleue and be fully persuaded that oure bodies shall ones bee translated and taken vp from this vale of myserye being glorified into the euerlastynge kyngedome of heauen Nowe as muche as the body doothe excell or is better then the shadow so muche doothe the thyng whiche is represented by the signe better than the signe Note this But the flesshe of our sauiour Iesu Christe if it had remained here after the mysterie of oure saluation was fulfilled hadde profited vs nothyng muche lesse shoulde the liniamentes picture or image of the body of our sauior Iesu Christ doo vs any good As touchyng his diuine nature he is coequal and of one substance with the father But Esaie in the .xl. chapiter All nations sayth he before hym are as nothyng and they are counted to hym lesse than nothynge and vanitie To whome then will they like God or what similitude will ye sette vp vnto hym Dydimus Obie 33 I holde my selfe content with this answere But what saye ye to this whiche I hearde but a while ago I was in a place where we entred into disputation concernynge these wordes Idole and Image And there some did affirme that ye do them great wrong in this that ye call their images Idoles Where as there is a greate difference betwixte them For by this word eidole they do vnderstaÌ„d the representation of a thyng that is not but this word Image which sometymes of the Latins is called simulachruÌ„ is the representation of a thyng which is in deede Phila. Answer This am I sure they can not denie but that where soeuer the 70. interpreters haue this word cidolum ydole Hierom dyd translate it simulachruÌ„ an image And in his eleueÌ„th boke of his coÌ„mentaries vpon Esaie Hierome vpon these wordes of Ezechias prayer Thou onely arte the God of all kingdomes Their goddes are no gods but the workes of mens handes wood and stones He did sayeth he boldely pray vnto the Lorde and doothe affirme hym to be the onely lyuyng God Whereby we doo vnderstande that eidoles are the ymages of dead men So farre Hierom. A strong argumente again t the papistes Now will I thus reason with them Are not theyr images the images of dead meÌ„ but eidoles ar the images of dead men therfore their images are but eidols It is plaine thaÌ„ the eidolu â— simulachruÌ„ that is an idol an image be all one thiÌ„g Erasmê° Erasmus in his annotations that he did make vpon the new Testament which worke is so hyghly commended by their holye father pope Leo the tenth writeth on this maner Thomas de Aquino doothe bryng a newe difference betwixt Idâ—lum an ydole and simulachrum an ymage because that an
may wtout any scrupulositie of coÌ„sciÌ„ece be present at the sacrifices of the gentiles and sitte with them at their feasts and banketts which they doo keepe in the honor of their idols For the mynd beyng restored vnto it selfe doth honor and worship the true liuing God alone therfore it contemneth ydoles and can not sithe it is purified by faithe be polluted or defiled with those thinges that be offered vnto theim Pauleâ— aunsâ—vere to â—heir reasons Vnto all those Paule maketh this answere Although thou doest beleue that there is but one God and doest therefore vnderstande that bothe the idoles the worshypping of theim and the sacrifices offered vnto them are but mere vanitie yet all men doo not see so muche neyther doo they comme to the sacrifices with the same conscience He that is weake and hath not yet cleane put away his olde inueterate errour whiche he hadde sucked of his forefathers dooth with a conscience sitte at suche meates and accordyng to his olde superstition whiche he hath no fully shaken of doth feare and dreade those goddes specially when he seeth thee whome he taketh to be of a founde iudgement to sytte at such prophane meates For he doeth suspecte that thou dost eate with none other conscience than he dooth and so he is not smally offended with thy bolde exaumple Bothe Ambrose Theophilactus and also Erasmus doo allowe this exposition Nowe if ye wille applie this to our purpose ye shall fynde nothyng that doothe more strongly impugne the images For although he whyche is of stronge faythe knoweth the image to bee nothynge yet another whyche hathe a weaker faythe wylle not so iudge But as long as he shall se them thus to stande in the Chyrches He wylle reasonne thus wyth hym selfe Idolatrye is not so damnable as the preachers doo say it is sythe that they are yet kept in the chyrches and are tollerated or borne withall of some lerned menne so they that frome their cradell haue bene nouseled in superstition and haue bene persuaded that there is some holyâ—â—sse in the ymages are kept still in errour can neuer come to a perfect pure faith Images ought to be pardoun in all churches Therfore it is a most wyse poynte to pull doune all ymages sythe that it is against all reason that a thyng of naught shoulde stande in the house of God in the place of prayer and therby had in reuerence But the Apostell doth briefely and shortly conclude or knit vp the whole disputation saieng Therfore wel beloued flye from idolatry Albion Obie 35 Yet it seemeth good vnto me that we shold haue the ymage of Christ being crucifyed with the images of his principall Apostelles and speciallye of the blessed virgin Mary the mother of our sauiour Iesu Christe for to put put vs in mynde of the passion of Christe and of the excellent vertues of his faithfull seruantes The dulneâ— of men in â—â—ings thaâ—â—ertaâ—â—e tâ—â—ut saluatioâ— Eutrapelus I fynde nowe by experience that the same is moste true whiche our brother Philalethes doth manye tymes repete in his sermons that is how that a good thynge hathe neede to be repeted and spoken of many tymes and often elles it will not bee remembred Ye hearde a little beefore that the meanes appoynted of god for to put vs in mynd of our Sauiour Iesu Christe and of the saluation purchased by him are the preachyng of the gospell and the ryghte and due ministration of the sacramentes according to the institution and ordeinaÌ„ce of the eternall wisedome of God that we are assured by goddes promises that the holy ghoste doth with these meanes worke in the hearts of the elect and chosen but as for ymages they be expressely forbidden in gods booke it is so farre of that they should be appoincted for to be meanes wherby the holy ghost shold plante faithe in our heartes or styrre vp our myndes to the knowledge of god to the imitation of his sayntes And because aboue al other ye would haue the ymage of Christe The ymage of â—heâ—â— of all other is most perillous I lette you to vnderstande brother Albion that of all other the ymage of Chryste is most perillous For the holyer the person is whyche is represented by the ymage ye shal finde the greater peryll of ydolatrye to bee in it Therfore it was not without a iuste cause that those godlye Emperours Valens and Theodosius dydde sette forth this godlye decree Sithe that this is our chiefest care aboue all thinges to mayntaine the religion of the high god we grante to no man Pertus Crinitus li. 9 de honeâ—ta diâ—ciplina ca. 9. to graue or paint the ymage of our sauiour Christe neyther to paynte it with colours nor to graue it in sones or in any other matter ‡ But vvhere soeuer it is found vve do bid â—t to be taken avvay beyng determined to punishe greuouslye those that will attempte anye thing contrarye to our decrees Wherin yf any man perchance dothe requyre an authour lette him reade the edictes and decrees of Emperours which haue ben gathered by these great learned meÌ„ Tribunianus Basilides Theophilus Dioscorus and other and most chieflye by the commaundement of Iustinianus the Emperor Hereby do we learn that it perteyneth to the mainteynaunce of true religion to put â—oune all ymages yea the ymage of oure Sauioure Iesu Christe VVhat vvee do learn by the decree of those eâ—â—perours because that in it there is moste peryll of idolatry And agayne that Vâ—lens and Theodosius did not this alone but many other Emperours whose decrees and edictes by the commandemeÌ„t of Iustinianus haue bene collected and gathered together by these greate learned men afore rehersed Philalethes Vnto these worthy Emperors wil I ioyne a most godlye auncient bishoppe whose greeke Epistle beyng sent to Iohn bisshop of Hierusalem Hierome did translate into latine his name is Epiphanius The wordes of the epistle are these Epiphanius â—ishop of â—alamena â— 1â— Cypius The ministration of the supper of the Lord vvas called collecta most chefly because â—hat the gatheâ—â—â—ges vvere made for the â—oâ—câ— When we were goyng together to the holy place which is called Bethel there to celebrate the communion wyth thee according to the Ecclesiasticall maner and was come to a ferm place called Anablatha and did see there passynge by a light burnyng and did aske what the place was and had learned that it was a churche and had gon for to pray there I founde as it were a vaile died or painted and hauing the ymage as it were of Christ or of som saint For I do not wel remember whose ymage it was Therfore when I dyd see that the ymage of man did hange in the churche contrary to the scriptures I rente it and did rather geue councel to the wardens of the place that they should wynd some poore dead body in it And a lyttell after Bid I beeseeche thee the elders of
that place to receaue of the bearer the vayle that is sent by vs and charge them that from henseforth no suche vailes be hanged in the churche of Chryste that are contrary to our religion For it be commeth thyne honesty to haue chiefly this solicitude and care that the scrupulosity vnseemely for the churche of Christ and the people committed vnto thee should be taken away Wherein we do learne all these godlye lessons Eight godly lessons vve learne by â—â—piphaâ—â— ' 2 Firste that no place ought to be geuen in the church of Christ to those things that are agaynst the autority of the holy scriptures Secondlye that to geue place in the churche of Chryste vnto ymages it is againste the autoritye of the holy scriptures that is of that lawe which saieth Thou shalte not make to thy self any grauen image Ero. 20. Thrydely that not onely grauen molten ymages and suche as be set vppe on high vpon or ouer the aultares but also the paynted images ought to be cast out of the churches Fourthly that the image of Chryste hym selfe oughte in no wyse to stande in the churche because that of all other it is moste peryllous and breedeth the greatest Idolatrye Fyftelye that the ymages oughte to be caste oute of the churche of Chryste not onelye by sedulitye and diligence of doctrine but also b verye facte and deede Syrtelye that they ought not coldely but with a seruent and earnest zeale of the true religion be put doune defaced and broken all to pieces as we do see this holy man of God Epiphanius to haue rente and torne in pieces the vayle that had the ymage of Christe paynted whiche he dyd beyng moued with the zeale of god Seuenthlye that it is the parte and duetye of byshops to see that ymages be not set vp in the churche of Christe Last of all that it is a mere scrupulosity and superstition vnseemely for the churche and the faithfull people of god to haue images Here maye we see that this godlye auncient byshoppe did muche differ in iudgement from those fonde personnes that thinke it to bee a profitable thynge for the people of God to haue ymages standynge in the churches Lette theym waye these thynges that haue alwayes the fathers in theyr mouthes and so lette theym learne that it is more honestie for vs to be called eâ—conoclastae that is ymage breakers than to be called eiconoplastae that is ymage makers and that we do approche nerer to the example of the olde ancient church than they do although they brag and boast theym selues to be catholyke and Apostolyke Eutrapelus I would fayn it now of them what those churches ouer whome Epiphanius was apointed superindenteÌ„t or bishop did want to the right edifying of true godlinesse Philalethes As ye saye for he was a Christian bishop he dydde preache that Christe was the sauiour of the worlde he dyd dispose the misteries of hys kingdome vnto the faythful and dyd builde the house of god without ymages of wood of stones of syluer and golde Epiphauluâ— in builâ—ing god â–ª house folovved the steppes of the auncient bishoppes or without any paynted grauen or molten ymages folowing in this the steppes of the patriarches and Prophetes of Chryste and of hys Apostelles Whyche all dydde plante religion and the true worshyppynge of GOD withoute ymages Dydimus Yf wee hadde manye Epiphanius in this realme not one churche wyndowe shoulde bee lefte hole thorougheoute all England there shoulde bee neyther crosse nor crucifixe lefte EVTRAPELVS Woulde God that we christians would labour studye to know the true crosse of Christ Of the croâ— Math. 16. Our Sauiour Iesus Christe doth saye He that will come after me lette hym forsake hym selfe take vp hys crosse and folowe me Here in this place by the crosse he doth vnderstande Crosse taken for affliction and trouble the afflictioÌ„ trouble and persequution that all they that will liue godly in our sauiour Iesu Christe are subiecte vnto But the most parte of those that delyte so much in materiall crosses doo take good heede that they shal not be fayn to beare this crosse of Chryste For they flatter to wyth the worlde swimmyng still betwixte twoo waters that howsoeuer it goeth with religion they thinke to escape free and to be without all troubles Paule wrytynge to the Galathians maketh mention of an other crosse Galati 5. affyrmynge that they that bee of Chryste haue crucifyed the fleshe wyth the lustes and concupiscences of the same Crosse taken for contâ—nual repeÌ„tâ—unce and mortifieâ—g of the flesh Whereby he dothe meane the continuall repentaunce that oughte to bee in vs the mortifyinge of the fleshe and of the lustes and concupiscences of the same and the brydelyng of our corrupted and poysoned nature and of our inordinate passions There is also an other crosse 1. Corin 1 whyche saint Paul doth speake of in the fyrst epistle or the Corinthians saying Christ hath not sent me to baptize but to preach the gospell not with persuading woordes of worldely wisdome lest the crosse of Christe should be abolished For the worde of the crosse is a foolyshenesse to them that perishe Galat. 6. but to vs that obtain saluation it is the power of god And in an other place God forbid that I should reioyce but in the crosse of our lorde Iesu Christe wherby the worlde is crucified vnto me and I vnto the worlde In these last textes by the crosse he doth vnderstand the death and passion of our sauiour Iesu Christe Crosse take for the deth of 〈…〉 for the preaching of the same and the preachynge of the same As yf Paule shoulde say I seeke none other where for the free pardonne and forgeuenesse of my synnes and for my delyueraunce from eternall deathe and from the power of Sathan but in the merytes of the deathe passion and bloudesheadynge of oure Sauioure Iesu Chryste Neyther doo I delyghte to preache and sette forthe any other thinge for to declare the goodnesse and mercy of God and the saluation of mankinde but the death of hys onely be gotten sonne These kindes of crosses ought the true christians to delight and glow in Dydimus I redde but a whyle ago Aungeli a certayne booke made in tyme of persequution where wonverfull many doctours of the primitiue churche are aleaged which do al maintayn the signe Osius and as he sayth the ymage of the crosse There is also one Osius whiche hathe written lately against the religion that is nowe and he doth also bringe manye doctours which do holde with the signe of the crosse EVTRAPELVS As for the fyrst I know hym ful wel In dede we haue many suche euill wicked aungelles that go about to peruerte the sinceritye of Christes religion and that they maye doo it wyth a better coloure they wil aleadge the fathers where they haue no warraunt at all of gods worde and where they speake as menne