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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A69753	The generall demands, of the reverend doctors of divinitie, and ministers of the Gospell in Aberdene, concerning the late covenant, in Scotland together, with the answeres, replyes, and duplyes that followed thereupon, in the year, 1638 : reprinted in one book, by order of Parliament.	Forbes, John, 1593-1648.; Henderson, Alexander, 1583?-1646.	1663 (1663)	Wing C4226; Wing C4225; ESTC R6298	125,063	170

better then ye have hither-to done 3. What the most honourable Lords of His Majesties Privy Counsell have done concerning the Kings Majesties last Proclamation is not sufficiently known to us and farre lesse upon what Grounds and Motives they have as you say rescinded their Approbation of the late Proclamation 4. His Majesties Religious and Righteous Disposition hath been to us and is a maine ground wherefore we rest and relye upon his gracious Proclamation perswading our selves that he intendeth not nor never intended any Innovation in Religion 5. We shall labour by all meanes to eschew every thing which in the least degree may wrong you our Reverend and worthy Brethren As for the Wrongs already done by us to you as yee pretend when-so-ever it shall please you to specifie them we hope to give you full satisfaction and to cleare our selves of that Imputation 6. The worke of GOD towards any Nation how strange and wonderfull so-ever it seem to be is never contrary to his Word and therefore we feare not to be found fighting against GODS Worke so long as we fight not against his Trueth revealed in his Word That all-seeing LORD knoweth that we mentaine his Trueth according to the light of our Consciences and are ready to joyne Heart and Hand with you for the Purity and Peace of this Church in every lawfull way course as sincere lovers of Trueth and Peace And now Brethren before we conclude againe we entreat you and all others our deare Countrey-men especially our reverend Bretheren of the holy Ministrie to judge charitablie of us and of our proceedings at this time and in particular of these our Demandes and Replyes which GOD is our witnesse neither hatred of any mans person nor love of Contention nor any worldly respect but only the Conscience of our Calling hath drawn from us And as for our Arguments for not Subscriving which are taken from our due subjection and obedience to our Soveraigne and his Lawes we protest and declare that they ought not to be so interpreted as if we intended to accuse you or others our dear Countrey-men of Disloyaltie towards our most Gracious KING or as if our purpose were to lay any such Imputation upon you for they are only used by us to show what the wordes of the Covenant seem to us to import and how we conceive of them as also what maketh us so to conceive of them We doubt not reverend Brethren but ye know that as we owe to you and to your Proceedings the favourable judgment of Charitie so we ought to judge of those thinges which we are to sweare and subscrive with the strict and inquisitive judgement of Veritie and consequently we ought to ponder duely and to propound particularly and fully to others especially to those who requyre our Oath and Subscription and undertake to satisfie our Consciences there-anent all the doubts and reasons which make us unwilling or afrayde to give our Subscription thereunto IOHN FORBES OF CORSE Doctor and Professor of Divinitie in ABERDENE ALEXANDER SCROGIE Minister at Old ABERDENE D. D. WILLIAM LESLIE D. D. and Principall of the KINGS Colledge in Old ABERDENE ROBERT BARON Doctor and Professor of Divinitie and Minister at ABERDENE IAMES SIBBALD Doctor of Divinitie and Minister at ABERDENE ALEXANDER ROSS Doctor of Divinitie and Minister at ABERDENE THE ANSVVERES OF SOME BRETHREN OF THE MINISTERIE TO THE REPLYES Of the Ministers and Professoures of DIVINITY in ABERDENE CONCERNING THE LATE COVENANT 2. CHRON. 15. 15. And all Juda rejoyced at the Oath For they had sworne with all their heart and sought Him with their whole desire and He was found of them To the Christian READER THat you may know our Proceedings how we are brought upon the Stage and contrary to our expectation are put in Print Comming to ABERDENE on Fryday the after-noon we received the Demands of our reverend Brethren that night late and for the greater expedition without delay we returned our summarie Answeres on Saturnday at night On the LORDS Day following we desired to expresse our selves to the People in presence of the Ministerie but the Pulpits and Kirks were altogether refused and therefore in the most convenient place we could have sub dio and at such houres as were vacant from the ordinary exercises of publicke Worship we delivered our Message in the audience of many After our last Sermon towards Evening we found that our labour was not in vain in the LORD for dyverse persones of speciall note both for place and wisdome with willing heart and great readinesse of minde did publicklie put their hands to the Covenant Having the weeke following seene some parts of the Countrey where besides the Presbyteries Alforde and Deere who had subscrived before the Moderator and dyverse of the Presbyterie of ABERDENE the Presbyterie and People of Turreff after they were satisfied in some scruples did also subscrive we returned the next Saturnday to ABERDENE where finding that some others had subscrived that weeke we resolved to preach upon the morne That night we received a Replye unto which before our returne home we have made an Answere All these we desire may be unpartially considered if it shall please the LORD that any light shall come from our Labour unto thy Minde let it bee as●ryved not unto us who neither had time nor helps for such a taske but to the brightnesse of the Trueth and Cause it selfe and to the Father of Lights to whome be all Glorie To our Reverend Brethren The Doctors and Ministers of Aberdene THat our Answeres reverend and beloved Brethren have not given you full satisfaction as it may be imputed to our weaknesse in the defence of so good a cause so it may proceed also from your own prejudice against what could be said by us which we have some reason to suspect for two causes one is that your Demands which we conceived to have been intended meerly for us and were sent unto us from you in write were published before our comming in Print like as ye have now printed and published your Replies before ye had seen our Answeres unto that which we received from you last in write we having promised to the bearer to returne an Answere shortly ere we departed the Countrey This may seem rather to be a seeking of victory from prejudice then a search of veritie for satisfaction The other cause of our suspicion is that the groundes of our Answeres to you have proven satisfactorie to others who for Age and gifts of Learning and Understanding are pryme men in this Kirke and Kingdome and to whom modestly will not suffer you to preferre your selves But whether our weaknesse or your prejudice be the cause must be now judged by others to whose view ye have brought us whom therefore we with you heartilie desire unpartially to consider our first and second Answeres wishing and hoping that partiality prejudice and all worldly respects and feares laide aside the naked Trueth shall

it according to your own grounds none of you will say that ye have sworne the perpetuall approbation and practise of these things which ye esteeme to be indifferent whatsoever bad consequent of Popery and Idolatrie Superstition or Scandall should follow thereupon we speake here only of things indifferent in your own judgement for ye have declared before that ye thinke the Ministration of the Sacraments in private places no more indifferent therefore can not forbeare the practise of these although your Ordinary and other lawfull Superiours should will you to doe so wherein Pearth Assembly for which you stand is wronged by you two wayes 1. That ye differ in judgement from them about the indifferencie of the five Articles and next that at the will of your Ordinary and we know not what other lawfull Superiours ye are ready to forbeare the practise of these things which the Assembly hath appointed to be observed What Oaths ye have given at your admission we know not because there is no Ordinance made Civill or Ecclesiastick appointing any such Oath and because the Prelats who arrogated that power presented to the intrants diverse models of Articles to be subscrived dealing with some more hardlie and with others more favourably according to their own diverse motivs considerations For some immediatly after Pearth Assembly without any warrand from the Kirke or Parliament were made to sweare at their Admission that they should both in private and publick maintaine Episcopall Jurisdiction and in their private and publicke Prayers commend the Prelates to GODS mercifull Protection that they should subject themselves to the Orders that presently were in the Kirke or by the consent of the said Kirke should be lawfully established The word lawfully was not in the Principall first subscrived as we have learned and if it had been exprest it is all one for the Superiours were judges to this lawfulnesse and unlawfulnesse We will not labour to reconcile every Oath given by Ministers at their entry with the present Covenant but wish and exhort rather that they may be recalled and repented of as thinges for which they can not answere before a generall Assembly To the Fourteenth IF the words of the Covenant be plaine concerning the meere forbearance and speake nothing of the unlawfulnesse no mans thoughts can make a change 2. By this Reply ye wrong your selves in forging from the words of the Covenant impediments and drawing stumbling blockes in your own way to hinder your subscription ye wrong the subscryvers in changing the state of the question and in making a divorce betwixt Religion and the KINGS Authority which the Covenant joineth together hand in hand and most of all ye wrong the KINGS Majesty in bringing him upon the stage before his Subjects in whose mindes ye would beget and breed suspicions of opposing the trueth of making innovation of Religion and of dealing with his Subjects contrary to his Lawes and Proclamations and contrary to the Oath at his Coronation We are not here seeking inscitiae 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or starting hole of ignorance or of the smallest disloyalty of affection but would willingly decline that for the present which neither his Majesties wisdome nor the prudence of Statsmen nor the modesty of good subjects will allow you or us to dispute The Crowns and Scepters of Kings would be more tenderly touched then the ordinary subjects of Schoole disputes The naked naming and bare proposall of certaine suppositions such as some are made by you can not but reflex upon Authority and sound harsh in the eares of all his Majesties good subjects who wish that he may long and prosperously reigne over us 3. His Majesties most honourable privy Counsell hath proven more favourable to this cause of maintaining the reformed Religion then many Pastors whom by reason of their place and Calling it beseemed to goe before others and although according to their wonted custome they gave warrand to make his Majesties Proclamation yet on good groundes remonstrated unto them by the Supplicants they willingly refused their approbation thereof hoping that his Majesty should be moved to give greater satisfaction thereafter and this is not our saying but a publicke doing before many honorable witnesses of which number some were directed unto you whose report ye have no reason to call in question 4. It becometh us to judge charitably of the intentions of our Superiours and most of all of the intentions of our dread Soveraigne Yet if that hold good which the supplicants have offred to prove that the Service Booke and Canons containe a reall innovation of Religion we must judge otherwise de conditione operis of the matters contained in the Booke then de intentione operantis of his Majesties intention although the intention of the Prelates their Associates the Authors contrivers of the Bookes be most justly suspected by us 5. It is no delight to us and can be but small comfort to you to mention the wrongs which by you are done to us all who have joined in this Covenant and doe adhere to the Religion as it was reformed in this land in your estimation writings we are Rebellious perjured hereticks schismaticks blind guydes seducers miserable interpreters ignorants shal such men as these be your reverēd Brethren Is this your meeknesse and charity Is this the duety ye expect from us But setting these aside ye have wronged us in with-holding your hand and help from so good a Cause of purging Religion and reforming the Kirke from so many grosse abuses and opposing all those who have modestly laboured for Reformation Your speaches in private in your chambers beds of sicknesse and in your missives and in publicke at tables and in Synods which are come to our knowledge we wish rather should be remembred and repented of by your selves then be recited by us who desire not to worke you any trouble 6. Although there be a perpetuall harmony betwixt the Word and Works of GOD far contrary to that which we finde to be amongst the Children of men yet often it commeth to passe that the Word and Warnings of GOD which we heare with our ears are not believed till we behold with our eyes the plaine Cōmentaries thereof in His Works Many Proofs and notable Documents have been observed of the Finger of GOD in the Worke in hand the Characters of the great Works of GODS more then ordinary Providence since the beginning are legible here Then did the LORD begin this work when the Adversary was raised to a great hight and become intollerably insolent The beginnings were small and in the eyes of the World contemptible such as use to be the beginnings not of the works of men but of the Magnificke works of GOD the power of GOD sensible in the hearts of many and manifested by the joy the tears and cries of many thousands at the solemne renewing of this Covenant hath been a matter of admiration and amazement never to be

it cannot be denyed first That if in a Free Assembly they be found to be against the purity and liberty of the Gospell they ought to be abolished in the meane time it being left free by the words of the Covenant to all who will to stand to the defence of their lawfulnesse Secondly how can it be denied that many corruptions contrary to the purity and liberty of the Gospell were they never so innocent in themselves have accompanyed these Novations such as the superstious observation of Daies feriation and cessation from worke on those dayes Feasting Guysing c. many grosse abusses have entered in the Sacrament upon Kneeling before the Elements and upon the lawlesse usurpation of Prelates in respect whereof even they who allow of Pearth Articles and Episcopacy may swear to recover the purity of the Gospell And thirdly who can be so great a stranger at home as to deny that many corruptions of Popery and Arminianism have entred in in the Kirke and have been vented and defended in schooles and Pulpits by reason whereof we are bound every one of us according to the measure of our light to labour for recovery of our former Purity And therefore if you had cast your eyes upon the condition of this poore Kirke as ye have pryed narrowly into the expressions of the Covenant ye might have spared both your owne labour and ours and not laboured to skarre both your selves and others with this shadow In your Argument ad hominem you should have considered that whatsoever be our judgement as we are particular persons yet at this time we were to be taken as Commissioners from the whole company of Subscrivers who about this point are of different judgements and if some of your own judgement had either come alone in our place or had been joined in Commission with us we had anticipate your Objection and this ye have been forced to see and so your selves in propounding your Objection have answered your own Syllogisme in making us to say that ye may sweare and subscrive seeing ye thinke not these things to be abjured in that Oath made Anno 1581 neither was it for you to inquire in our private Opinion nor necessary for us to make it knowne but to have conceived of our minds according to our Commission and the will of those who sent us Your Arguments need to be no impediments unto your swearing of the Covenant For upon your grounds ye would not have sworne the short Confession any time bypast yea ye can not sweare the Confession of any Kirke nay not the Articles of the Creed because of the diverse Interpretations of the Article of Christs descent into Hell or swearing them in Scotland and England ye behoved to sweare them in diverse senses There be some words of the Lords Prayer as Give us this day our daily bread and of the ten Commands as the words of the fourth Command which are diversly understood must Christians therefore forbeare to joine in saying the Prayer or swearing Obedience to the Commandements Neither for this doe we admit any Ambiguity or Equivocation the words certainly have but one true sense and signification but diverse persons conceive and understand them according to the different measures of their light Since then your Disputation is builded upon such a Supposition it must either fall to the ground or hardly can any Confession of Faith or religious Covenant be sworne Offend not therefore if we in modesty present unto you a dish of your owne dressing we meane the like Argument ad hominem The Rites and Ceremonies which are not abjured in the negative Confession are not abjured in this late Covenant But the Rites and Ceremonies which were concluded in Pearth Assembly are not abjured as ye say in the negative Confession made Anno 1581 therefore they are not abjured in this late Covenant The first Proposition is evident because in the late Covenant we are bound no furder concerning the negative Confession but to keep it inviolable and therefore what Rites are not abjured there are not abjured here The second Proposition cannot be denyed by you for these twenty years by-gone ye hav● thouhgt your selves free of Perjury notwithstanding of the Oath in 1581 and of your conforming your selves to the Ordinances of Pearth And whereas ye alleadge afterward as before that our Supplications are satisfied the contrary is knowne by our publicke Protestation and by our last Supplication and Complaint presented to his Majesties Commissioner And urging of the Service Booke was a sufficient reason for forbearance of Pearth Articles till an Assembly at which time it may be determined whether it be expedient that this Kirke be any more troubled with them Neither needeth your Conscience to hinder you to subscrive the forbearance of these Novations as if swearing of forbearance were a swearing disobedience to Authority first Because the swearing of forbearance of a thing in your opinion indifferent in the case of Scandall and of sensible feare in others of Superstition is the swearing of Obedience the Commandement of GOD which forbiddeth us to destroy him for whom Christ died although man should cōmand the contrary 2. Because the Articles of Pearth were concluded for satisfying the KING and not to presse any man with the practise of them as was openly professed unto the Opponents before the face of the whole Assembly and because the Act it selfe giveth warrand to forbeare the practise at this time when the memory of superstition is revived which maketh us to thinke that they who have forborne the practise of these Articles since the superstitious service Booke was complained upon make most truelie conscience of obedience of the Act of Pearth and Parliament ratifying the same and are most conforme unto the Confession of Faith ratified in Parliament declaring that Ceremonies ought to be changed when they rather foster superstition then edifie the Kirke using the same Last of all Ye say ye can not sweare forbearance because ye can not abstaine from private Baptisme and private Communion where we perceive that in your judgement private Baptisme and Communion are not any more things indifferent but necessary necessitate praecepti in so farre that the not using of them is a contempt of the means and a tempting of GOD. By this your Doctrine first The state of the Question anent Pearth Arricles is quite altered for ye and your Associates did ever to this time alleadge the Question to be of thinges indifferent but now ye finde some of them so necessary that altho the generall Assembly of the Kirk should discharge them yet ye behoved still for conscience of the Commandement of GOD to practise them If ye have the same judgement of kneeling before the Elements and of festivall dayes it commeth to passe amongst us which hath been incident to the Kirke informer Ages that thinges have been first brought in as indifferent then urged as necessary If confirmation also in your judgement be

in Fasting and Humiliation had been also Testimonies of your sincerity against Popery 2. The laudable means of Preaching Praying c. which we wish may be still in all faithfulnesse used by you may very well agree with the renewing of our Covenant with GOD and both being joined have in a short time past produced more powerfull effects to the comfort of many thousands then all our Prayers and Preaching hath done for a long time before which testifie That as it is warranded by the Word of GOD so the motion hath pr●ceeded from GOD. All the Arguments and Subtilties that can be devised will never make a People who at this time have found GOD dwelling and working in their hearts to thinke the contrary 3. The naturall inclination of people to Popery and the perswasion of others of their disposition may make the people to conceive other wayes of the Service Booke and Canons that ere it be long they may be brought in in a faire and legall way and therefore it is necessary for preventing of those and other Evills of that kinde that the Subjects joine in a Covenant both for themselves and their Posterity To the Twelfth FIrst we have ever preached according to our measure and have given example of reverence to Authority and the LORDS Service but we neither acknowledge the usurped Authority of prelates for lawfull Authority nor the Service Booke for the Lords Service And therefore it was so much the more intollerable for the Prelates without Authority from the Kirke or Parliament to bring in the Service Booke into GODS own house upon the LORDS own Day Which maketh it nothing strange that people zealous of the Trueth and of the Service of GOD were stirred up to oppose and we are very confident that these who have opposed doe beare as loyall respect to the KINGS Majesty and will be as loath to provoke him to just wrath as their opposites are In the meane time why doe ye not acknowledge that the children were higher provoked to wrath by the Prelates whom ye account reverend and holy Fathers 2. As the preservation of our own private Possession from Invasion of others belongeth to our selves under the KINGS Protection so the keeping of GODS House from Pollution and Superstition belongeth to Authority to the community of the Faithfull and to every one in his own place and order 3. We told you before that we did no more allow violences of that kinde nor we did allow the ●oule aspersions of Rebellion Heresie Schisme and Perjury put upon the Noblemen and remnant Covenanters And where ye aske of us Why these tumults are not publickly by us condemned and rebuked we aske againe of you why ye did not condemne and rebuke such dealing since that is no lesse transgression both against the sixt and nynth Command then the other is against the sixt And whereas ye are now so peremptorie in drawing a Declaration from us answearable to that which ye have given concerning the foresaid Aspersions and Calumnies we having no commission to declare the mindes of others in this point or to give Documents for our own private judgement doe heartily disallow every wrong of that kynde As for the Apologie of D. JOHN FORBES of Corse seeing the wrong hath been done not unto some few particular persons such as ye say have been wronged by some of the people but unto the body of the Kingdome consisting of Noble-men Barons c. who are highly offended thereby it were in us Presumption and without the bounds of our Calling to take upon us to receive any Declaration of that kinde especially wherein so many thinges are reprovable as first That his bitter speaches were occasioned by some printed Bookes affirming that Episcopacy and Pearth Articles were Antichristian and abominable Supposing it were true did he thinke the Noblemen and whole Covenanters to be the Authors of those Books And was this dealing agreable to that Christian meeknesse so much required of us before The Writers of those printed Books are not the first who have spoken so For Master KNOX spared not in a Letter of his to call this kneeling A Diabolicall Invention Secondly The swearing of Forbearance of the practise of Pearth Articles and the Confirmation of the said Doctrine which we neither deny nor affirme to be imported in the olde Covenant but only in the Interpretation thereof we declare That Promise is only made to forbeare for a time doth not deserve so bitter a Censure as this apologie beareth upon us 3. If the KINGS Majesty Counsell or the Subjects of Scotland had asked his opinion and advice he might have used the greater liberty 4. It is ill apologized to call it a holie indignation and worse defended since it is such a wrath as worketh not the righteousnesse of GOD. 5. Whereas he desireth to be accounted in the number of these qui proficiendo scribunt scribendo proficiunt we could wish that he had profited better by writing then he hath done by writing his Irenicum first and now this his Warning after his Irenicum for which if he make no better Apologie then confessing Asperity of words proceeding from an holy indignation it will come to passe of his Apology as it fared with his Irenicum unto which was applyed fitly what was spoken in the like case Aut fabrum forceps aut ars ignara fefellit 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 voluit cudere cudit 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 6. Whereas ye desire us to doe the like if ye meane of us personallie we have declared our judgement and shall be carefull to approve our selves to GOD and the consciences of all men in every such duety and if ye meane us and those that sent us we shall not faill to report unto them what ye desire although our Commission from you had been the more acceptable if ye had spoken more reverently of our Confession and Covenant then ye have been pleased to doe in the words of your desire and had put your hand unto the Covenant which would presently have joined us in a greater Affection and made way for union in judgement and perfect peace which is the desire of our Soules To the Thirteenth YEE pretended a threefolde Scandall which should follow upon your Subscription 1. The Scandall of Dissenting from other Reformed Kirks and famous Divynes 2. The Scandall of Dissenting from Authority 3. The Scandall of Perjury We answered That the contraverted words of the Covenant being rightly conceived and interpreted according to their true meaning and not after the glosse which ye have put upon them doe put you out of danger of all the three Scandalls which ye seem to acknowledge of the first two and may by the like reason acknowledge of the third of Perjury We dispute not of the lawfulnesse of the Oath given at your Admission by what Authority it was exacted with what conscience it was given nor how ye can answere for the Scandall risen thereupon but conceiving

thereto by prejudice then at satisfaction by searching of the Trueth This reason is grounded upon a mistaking for although our Demands at the first were intended for you onely yet afterwards we resolved to Print them as also our REPLYES the Printing whereof did nowayes depend upon your second Answeres not for love of contention nor desire of vict●ry GOD knoweth but for such reasons as we have expressed in our Preface to the unpartiall Reader whom we hope we have satisfied in this point Your other reason is that the grounds of your Answers to us have proven satisfactory to others who for Age and Learning are prime men of this Kingdom and to whome our modestie will not suffer us to preferre our selves Farre be it from us to be so presumptuous as to preferre our selves to so many Learned and worthy Divines and as farre be it from us to measure the soliditie and sufficiencie of your Answeres by the Habilities or Induments of these who have acquiesced in them If this your reason were good the Papists might more probablie accuse us of prejudice as indeed they unjustlie doe because their Answeres to our Arguments have proven satisfactorie to many thousands of those who for profunditie and subtilitie of wit are inferiour to none of the World but we regarde not this slender motive remembring these words of our Saviour I thanke Thee O Father Lord of Heaven and Earth because Thou hast hid these things from the Wise and Prudent and hast revealed them unto Babes even so O Father for so it seemed good in Thy sight Besides if ye compare the Divines Ancient and Moderne who are of our judgement with these who favour your opinion either in number or in the excellency of their gifts ye shall finde that in this the advantage is greatlie ours In the meane time ye shall know that we can bring far better reasons to free our selves of prejudice then these which ye have brought against us to wit the soliditie of our Arguments which have put you to such straits pardon us to say that which every one who have eyes may see that oft times ye doe not so much as attempt to answere them being glad to passe them by with the show of an Argument in contrarium or some other like shift our humble earnest attestations in calling GOD the onelie competent Iudge as witnesse of our sincerity in the inmost thoughts of our soul our seriously professed Resolution to concurre with you if we should get satisfaction from you the modestie ingenuitie and peaceablenesse of our writings to you and on the contrarie your too great disdainfulnesse and asperitie in your second Answeres bewraying not onelie the weaknesse of your mindes farre by our expectation but also the weaknesse of your cause to unpartiall Readers who ascrive this to the pungent force of our Arguments judging that they have made you somewhat more cholerike then you were before To this wee will adde the great reluctance which some of the most Iudicious Subscribents did finde in their Consciences before they subscrived your Covenant together with the Limitations and Reservations wherewith they subscrived it evidently arguing their strong apprehension of the dangerous ambiguitie and haske sounding of the words of the late Covenant so that even these who are now joined with you have been much affrighted with those things which terrifie us As for your Protestation in the end of your Epistle that ye can no more be brought to our minde then ye can be drawn from the profession of our Religion as it hath been reformed sworne c. Although this importeth no small prejudice possessing and over-ruling your minds yet looking to the invincible force of that Trueth which we mantaine we even yet hope that at last it shall prevaile with you espe●iallie considering that our con●roversie is not concerning the Reformed Religion whereunto we as sincerelie adheare as any whatsoever but concerning the equitie of that forme of Covenant which ye lateli● made Wishing you and all others to adheare truelie and sincerelie to the same true Religion and to all the dueties which in it are recommended to you we most humblie and earnestlie pray the Almightie GOD to pitie his Church in this Kingdom and to unite all our hearts in Trueth and Peace in these most dangerous dayes which although they be to you dayes of gladnesse as ye professe yet to those who love the peace of Sion and the tranquilitie of this Kingdome they are sad and melancholious dayes in respect of the blacke clowdes of GODS wrath hanging over our heads and threatning us with stormes of fearfull Calamities which we pray the Almightie GOD to avert THE FIRST DUPLY. IN our Disputes against the Papists which have been frequent and by GODS grace not unfruitfull as we have learned that to multiply objections against the Trueth is a thing easie as ye say but fruitlesse and vain so also we have learned that to multiply Evasions against solide Arguments brought for the Trueth is a thing no lesse easie but altogether unprofitable which we pray you take heed to How forcible are right words but what doth your arguing reprove JOB 6. 25. 2. Ye say that our objection against your calling and the warrand of your comming to us was framed and published in Print before it was proponed unto you and ere your Answere could be had Indeed our Demands were at the Presse at your comming that they might be in readinesse but were not published before your selves in your Sermons did publickly read them and dispute against them in audience of such of our People as were there present for the time albeit that written copie of them was delivered to you onely and not at that time communicated by us to any other 3. Your Authority which ye acclaim is neither from his Majestie nor warranded by Act of Parli●ment nor by the Lords of his Majesties Counsell nor by any Nationall Synode of this Kingdom nor by any Judicatory established in it And both in your first Answere as also now again ye professe that ye came not hither to us●rpe the Authority of any Civill or Spirituall Judicatorie As for your multitude which ye call almost the whole Kirke and Kingdom it being destitute of Authority foresaid maketh no warrand of ordinary calling Therfore ye seeme to pretend an extraordinary calling from GOD alleadging an extraordinary necessitie at this time which truely we see not in any such degree as may deserve and warrand so great a change from the received order which is publickly by Lawes established in this Kirke and Kingdom That saying of the Apostle Let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good workes which ye alleadge for your extraordinary imployment importeth not an extraordinary calling but an ordinary duety to be performed by all Christians according to their Callings 4. The Word of GOD and the Canons of Counsells doe so permit to Pastors the care of the whole Kirke as they must

things were left indifferent by the negative Confession yet may we not forbear the practise of them because since that Confession Lawes have passed on them which remaining in vigour require our Obedience as we said before 7. The other horne of your Dilemma is that if these points were abjured for ever before Pearth Assembly then wee who practise them are perjured To which we answere That it followeth not for we never did swear to that negative Confession And therefore though these points were abjured therein yet are we free from all guiltinesse of Perjury And in the mean time ye have not resolved how he who is perswaded of the lawfulnesse of those points can swear the negative Confession if by it the Swearer be tyed to the abjuring of those points which was the other part of our Dilemma Thus if ye will consider rightly ye may perceive that our Dilemma standeth unmoved with the hornes of it still towards you Ye farther insinuate that our Reasons are not solide and grave but velitations of such a sort as ye looked not for Let the judicious Reader pronounce his sentence of this only we wish that ye had chosen rather to satisfie then to contemn our reasons That which ye here againe adde concerning the change of Cōmissioners is answered in our fourth Duply 8. To give light to your former discourse ye subjoine a distinction of discipline into three members First ye say it is taken for the rule of Government of the Church and censure of manners by office bearers appointed by CHRIST and thus ye say it is unchangeable Secondly for constitutions of counsells and Acts of Parliament about matters of Religion And thus ye say it is alterable or constant according to the nature of particular objects Thirdly for the ordering of circumstances to be observed in all actions divyne and humane and so ye say it is variable First by these distinctions the matter seemeth rather to be obscured then cleared For ye doe not expresse in which of these senses the discipline mentioned in the negative Confession is to be taken which was the point required of you 9. Secondly ye seem by this distinction to intangle your selves yet more For first if ye take the name of discipline in any one or any two of these senses what say ye to these following words of your dispute against the English Popish ceremmies Parte 4. cap. 8. Sect. 8. The Bishop doeth but needlesly question what is meaned by the discipline whereof the Oath speaketh For howsoever in Ecclesiasticall use it signifieth often times that Policie which standeth in the censuring of manners yet in the Oath it must be taken in the largest sense namely for the whole Policy of the Church For 1. The whole Policy of this Church did at that time goe under the name of discipline and those two Books wherein this Policy is contained were called the Books of discipline And without all doubt they who swore the Oath meaned by discipline that whole Policy of the Church which is contained in those Books 10. Secondly when that little Confession was framed the government of the Church was only by Presbyters and not by Bishops and therefore if ye think that the name of discipline in that Confession comprehendeth under it the first part of your distinction which as we conceive ye will no● deny ye may easily perceive that we are urged by you to sweare and subscrive against our Consciences since we think the rule of the government of the Church which then was to be changeable and that the Government was lawfully changed by following Assemblies and Parliaments from Presbyters to Bishops 11. Thirdly If these Constitutions of Counsells concerning objects alterable mentioned in the second member of your distinction be one the same with ordering of variable circumstā●es mentioned in the third member why have ye distinguished the one from the other But if they be different then ye grant that Ecclesiastick constitutions may be made concerning some alterable matters of Religion which are not bare circumstances which is repugnant to your ordinary doctrine whereby ye mantain that nothing changeable is left to the determination of the Church in matters of Religion but onely circumstances of Actions We can not see how ye can mantain this doctrine and yet oppose the determinations of the Church concerning Ceremonies which are indifferent 12. We had reason to inquire your judgement concerning Rites or Ceremonies which are not of divine Institution whether they be lawfull or not though ye still shun the declaring of it Since by your Covenant ye intend a reformation of Religion and a recovering of the Liberty and Purity of the Gospell as ye speak if ye in your judgement condemne such Ceremonies as ye insinuate we can not expect but that if ye obtain your desires all such Rites shall be expelled and condemned especially since by this your late Covenant ye tye your selves to that old Covenant wherein ye disclaim and detest all Rites brought into the Church without the word of GOD. Now we can not concurre with you for promoving this end because such a judgement is plain contrary to ours yea contrary to the universall judgement and practise of the Ancient Kirke repugnant also to the judgement of the Protestant Churches and most famous Divines therein as may appear by the quotations on the margine But if ye be of the same mind with us and think that there are some Rites of that kind lawfull why doe you hide your minde from us and others since the acknowledgement and manifesting of this Trueth would be no small advancement to your cause by removing this great offence Of Matrimoniall Benediction and God-fathers in Baptism 13. As for solemn blessing of Marriage we asked what warrand ye had for it by precept or practise set down in GODS Word In your Answere ye insinuate that it is a blessing of the people commanded in the Law and more plainly we find this set down in the Dispute against the English Popish Ceremonies Part. 3. Cap. 2. Sect. 10. Yet plain it is from Scripture it self that Matrimoniall Benediction ought to be given by a Pastor for GOD hath commanded his Ministers to blesse his People Numb 6. First who ever before you did ground the necessity of solemne blessing of Marriage upon these words Numb 6. 23. Speak unto Aaron and unto his sonnes saying on this wise ye shall blesse the children of Israel saying unto them the LORD blesse thee and keep thee c. Learned Melanchton was not so well versed in Scriptures as to see this For he sayeth in his Epistles Pag. 328. Ye see that the Rite of the Ancients is that the Bridegroom and Bride are joined before the Altar in the sight of GOD and with the incalling of GOD. Which custome undoubtedly hath been ordained by the first Fathers that we may consider that this conjunction was appointed by GOD and is assisted by Him 14. Secondly By this