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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A90976	The sun out-shining the moon, or, Righteousness excelling rottennness in answer to a lying scandalous paper, published by John Moone, entituled, The true light hath made manifest darknesse, &c. : but it is darkness put forth for light, as it will appear by that which followeth / and is published by John Price.	Price, John, Welsh clergyman.; Bownd, William. Brief discovery of the the erroneous tenets of those who are distinguished from other men by the name of Quakers.	1658 (1658)	Wing P3353; ESTC R43721	30,935	58

in the steps of the false Prophets which knowest not the first principle of pure Religion For we say that the first principle of pure Religion was before transgression was and transgression was before repentance And again thou sayest that the light shineth but in some men herein thou art found a liar and wrestest the Scriptures who deniest the Testimony of Iohn who was a true Minister of the Lord who said It lighteth every man and thou sayest some men and not all And whereas thou sayest there is no true Church out of God but are by Faith in God neither doth that Church persecute This is truth and this we own to be ours and we find thee to be in the same Generation who said they were of the seed of Abraham and that God was their Father and Christ Jesus said Ye are your Father the Devil who was a liar from the beginning And there are all them who knows not the first principle of pure Religion strangers to the Covenant of grace and truth and this Covenant we witnesse to be our light and life and by this light we see thee and all the false Prophets to be out of the light walking in the dark world and here thy fellowship is with them who goeth for the wages of unrighteousnesse as thy Brother and Companion John Price who receives moneyes when people are married and when Children are born And now let that of God in all consciences judge whether this be in the Church which is in God or in the world where covetousnesse is And whether you be the Deceivers and Seducers who practise and uphold these things or us who are sent of the Lord to speak against these evil practises And herein we exhort you to that of God in your conscience which witnesse for us against all these evil practise JOHN MOON JOHN DAVIES READER Before I set down the answer to this foregoing reply as they call it which Hugh Evans and I have sent to John Moone and John David I shall give you a Relation of what Hugh Evans was Seeing that Iohn Moone hath the face as to give Hugh Evans the Title of a blind Priest therefore Ishall enforme you of what Hugh Evans was He in his youthful time was bound Apprentise in the City of Worcester to a Clothier and there he learned the Trade and wrought there many years Then in the time of the Wars he went from Worcester to Coventry Worcester being then a Garison for the King and there joyned himself to the Church and wrought there for certain years and being zealous in the Gospel and his love much kindled towards God and man and hearing that his native Countrey was destitute of that means of Salvation that is to say the Preaching of the word and the Ministration of the Ordinance of Jesus Christ he was much moved with love to the truth and to his native Countrey yet not judging himself fully furnished or fitted for that work and Ministry he by the consent of the Church went to a faithful Servant of the Lord Ieremiah Ives and informed him and the society there with him of the necessity of the Preaching of the Word in Wales then were they sent and came to Wales and performed the work which they were sent to do Hugh Evans having no other mind but to return then the Brethren besought him to abide with them the which he accordingly did for the space often years and upwards until the Lord saw good to deprive them of him in which time his Friends can give a large Testimony of his Zeal and labour in the Gospel yet this lying man Iohn Moone hath the face as to say that he was a blind Priest in Wales Here followeth another Paper of Iohn Moone which is like the rest and my reply to it but you shall find more by a Friend of mine who hath been accused for the same things by the forenamed Iohn Moone I went from David VVilliam unto Hugh Evans and John Price to give the said Hugh a Paper The said Hugh and Iohn fell a discoursing with me in which discourse the said Iohn Price said that the Devil was Eternal And he asked me whether I would deny it And I said I deny that the Devil is Eternal and bade him prove it by Scripture but he did not neither would he acknowledge that he told a lie but goeth on in sin beguiling unstable people and herein thou Iohn Price art found one of them who said that God was their Father but they were of their Father the Devil and thou callest the Devil Eternal and herein I see thee forsaking the right way art gone astray following the lust of the flesh living out of the fear of God speaking high swelling words of vanity but is found out among the Dogs and Sorcerers and unbelievers and they who loves to make a lie and before the everlasting fire of the Lord is kindled for the Devil and his Angels And herein I Iohn Moone do bear witnesse that the Lord God of Heaven and Earth is Eternal and what ever is Eternal is one with the Lord God and endures for ever And herein I utterly deny that the Devil is one with God whom thou sayest is Eternal and so let that of God in all consciences judge whether God and the Devil be both one for he that is Eternal is one with God and this is he who is our Salvation for evermore but he who calls the Devil Eternal knows not Salvation for there is no Salvation to be found in him but woe and misery which is the portion of unbelievers and herein we bear witnesse to the truth and against that which is untruth JOHN MOONE Here followeth my answer to John Moones fore-going Paper A word to thee Iohn Moone in answer to thy scandalous Paper which I have received from thee upon the 21th day of the first moneth in the year 1656. in which I find more of thy vainjangling and false accusing as thy manner is seeking to make me and all Saints odious But blessed are ye when men revile you and speak all manner of evil of you wrongfully as thou and thy fellowes do unto me and others who walk in the fear of the Lord and do continue by his goodnesse in his grace to which he hath called and chosen us and established our souls and spirits therein yet you that is to say Iohn Moone and Iohn Davies do call us Dogs the seed of the Serpent and Sons of the Devil and Children of darknesse and presumptuously in the name of the Lord excommunicate us if your cursing could from the love and grace of our God in pronouncing all the wrath and plagues of the Eternal God to fall upon us and saying to your own hurt that you are sent of God so to do I shall not bring against thee any railing accusations but the Lord rebuke thee and touching what hath been said by me concerning the immortality of the Devil It was to

meeting in the Parish of Llauvr in Raduorshire where Hugh Evans was exercising his Gifts to the edifying and building up of his Brethren in the Faith and fear of the Lord and in his exercise he said to this effect That there is a threefold nature in the people of God The Divine Nature The Humane Nature And the Serpentine Nature The seed of the Serpent under the feet of the seed of the Woman the seed of the Serpent bruising the heele but the seed of the Woman bruising the head then one John David a Quaker so distinguished from other men spake to this effect or these very words I deny thy third there is but two stop thy mouth the Plagues and Judgements of God is thy portion and with many presumptuous words in the name of the Lord he railed much against us and so began to teach the people and held forth that there is but two things light and darknesse God and the Devil the seed of the Woman and the seed of the Serpent and many things to that purpose After him John Moone began his Lesson but Hugh Evans made some reply to this effect That if it was so as they said that there is but two things light and darknesse God and the Devil the seed of the Woman and the seed of the Serpent then what is that which is to be saved or to be damned for it is impossible for the seed of the Serpent to be saved nor for the seed of the Woman to be Eternally damned But John David did give no sound answer and I believe that all rational men will say that he could not Then this question was by us propounded to John Moone but his answer was no better then the other Whereupon the said John Moone stared in Hugh Evans his eyes and asked him many questions though they themselves cry out against others for asking of questions some of them I can yet remember The first question he asked him was this Art thou come to the beginning He answered I am come to the beginning and the end Christ Jesus Again he asked him Hast thou eaten of the Tree of Life He said He had Then John Moone said How comest thou there Thou knowest what the sword of the Cherubin is Hugh Evans said It is the anger of God Then he asked What the Soul was Upon that I desired Hugh Evans not to answer him knowing them to be but the Cavillers questions Then John Moon said to the people This man who is your Teacher knoweth not what the soul is Then Hugh Evans said Answer not a Fool according to his folly lest thou be like him yet answer a Fool according to his folly lest he be wise in his own conceit And so Hugh Evans stood up and read this Scripture And God breathed into man the breath of life and man became a living soul and so gave the people a Description of the soul of man And after he had done some that were there desired John Moone to gainsay if he could what Hugh Evans had said concerning the soul but he did not much confused discourse hath been that day which cannot be repeated neither is it worth the repeating At another time there was a meeting of theirs at a place called Yscwriw to which meeting Hugh Evans and others went and he accused them of denying the Resurrection and desired time and silence to prove it but could not have it but much bruitish and unreasonable Behaviour shortly after I sent these ensuing queries to John Moone First Whether God and man was not two distinct things after he had created him Secondly Whether man onely did not sall from that peaceable estate which God had created and stared him in and no part of God fell with him or in him Thirdly Whether that formed creature man or that body which God created in the beginning did not become mertal and must die the natural death Fourthly Whether that body or the bodies of all men shall not at the last day or at the dissolution of this world and all Creatures be raised up out of the Earth and receive a just Sentence These queries he did take upon him to answer But I will leave it to the Reader to judge what manner of answer it is Their answer with their queries are as followeth John Price I having received thy Paper wherein thou seekest to put a Cloak on thy errors which Paper I am made free to answer for the innocent sake and not to satisfie thy busy mind First Whereas thou broughtest the Scripture in Nehene 7.5 64. to be a Cloak for thy error and covetousnesse but the Scripture doth declare against all errors and covetousnesse wherein thou art shut out of the Scriptures and art a stranger to the life of God which gave forth the Scriptures living in thy Ignorance and covetousnesse wresting the Scriptures to thy own destruction Answer It is not for that word Register that I charged thee withall for the word in its place I own But for that thou dost follow the way of Balaam who loved the wages of unrighteousnesse but was rebuked for his Iniquity and so I rebuke thee and whereas thou hast confusedly written in thy Paper concerning Justice of the Peace and naming no man yet for truth sake I answer All that are true Ministers of God and Magistrates I own and all that are just and do justice is more acceptable to the Lord then sacrifice and all that acts for the punishment of the Evil-doers and the praise of them that do well For so is the will of God that with well-doing we may put to silence the Ignorant and the Foolish men And herein is our Father glorified and the Enemies of God discovered and all them that acts not according to that which is just I deny An Answer to thy queries First Query Whether God and man was two distinct things after he had created him Answer The Lord God is Eternal and endures for ever and he formed man of the dust of the Earth which is Carnal The second Query Whether man onely did not fall from that peaceable estate which God had created and stated him in and no part of God fell with him or in him Answer It was man onely that brake the Command of God as by one man sin entered into the world and death by sin so death passed upon all men for that all have sinned herein I deny that that which is of God should fall into sin or Iniquity The third Query Whether that formed Creature man or that body which God Created in the beginning did not become mortal and must die the natural death Answer All flesh shall perish and man shall return to the dust from whence he was taken The fourth Query Whether that body or the bodies of all men shall not at the last day or at the dissolution of this world and all Creatures be raised up out of the Earth and receive a just Sentence Answer All

mouth carping at they know not what like Dogs barking at the Moon Whereupon the said Alexander fathered that uproar upon me whereas there had not proceeded out of my mouth at that time any words but these above written and then I stated the question again as followeth Question Whether thou dost own a humane soul in man which is to be redeemed besides that pure principle of God He Answered The Soul is pure I replied that Jesus Christ came not to redeeme a pure principle of God but an impure soul Then said he Can the soul be defiled Can the soul be desiled I said The Soul can be defiled and the Soul is defiled through the fall in the first Adam He said The soul is under sin and slavery but it is not defiled with sin Then there was one that stood there for their side stirred up with a very wrathful distempered Spirit and said unto the said Alexander Brother I charge thee before God and these men that thou shalt not speak with this man And when he had thus spoken three times then the said Alexander said That he would not speak with me and so withdrew from me Whereupon I spake unto the people what he had said concerning mens souls that they could not be defiled with sin to the end that all those that see and are not stark blind might have a sight of his erronious Judgement Then the said Alexander drew near me again lest his Errors should be uncloaked and his Doctrine laid naked before the people saying Do not wrest my words I say The soul is pure I denied that the soul is pure to which end Christ came in the Flesh for to purifie impure souls I did bid him prove his affirmative Whereupon one John Moone it seems of the same judgement and Alexander did bid me prove that the soul is not pure I said I was not to prove a negative and so I did demand of them to prove that the soul is pure Then the said Alexander urged that Scripture in Gen. 2.7 God breathed into man the breath of life and man became a living Soul I said that doth not prove what the Soul is but what the soul was Here it appeareth that lest he should receive a total rout or a deadly wound with his own staffe and his false Tenet be stript bare he said that he spake of his own Soul Now a word unto the said Alexander Parker and John Moone who say You speak from the mouth of the Lord and by that infallible Spirit as the holy men of God did and are fully perfect How is it that the said Alexander hath said and the said John Moone seeming to maintain what he had said and if he spake of his own Soul to be under sin and slavery how is it that he is also perfect Or is it not rather clear according to his general Doctrine that day and the question propounded that he spake of every mans Soul but lest he should be trapped in his own snare he said He spake of his own Soul Here I charge thee with a lie either of you shew me if you can which way you can escape it let me see which way you can dawb up this tottering Wall with your untempered Morter or else be ashamed of your ignorance and confesse your Error and repent Now to all you that are impartial and unbiassed that can weigh the truth in the Balance of Justice do I appeal First Whether that Proposition I propounded was a thing needful or material that day Secondly Whether the propounding of that question onely was a cause of an uproar Thirdly Whether it was a difficult thing for me to prove from Scripture that the Soul was defiled with sin Fourthly Whether that Scripture Gen. 2.7 doth prove his Soul or any other man's Soul to be pure since our fall in the first Adam Fifthly Whether this lying and equivocating aforesaid be from the mouth of the Lord and by the infallible Spirit Or whether is it by the Spirit of Error and from the mouth of Antichrist who is the Lord of lyes By one that is embouldened to stand up in the truths behalf to the face of truths Opposers WILLIAM BOWND A Copy of this forementioned Discourse was sent unto John Moone and Alexander Parker After many dayes I received this reply which followeth A Paper I received subscribed by one William Bownd wherein I find several lies and false accusations and lying aspersions cast upon the Messengers of the Lord judging of truth with his dark mind as that Generation of Professors ever did who had a form of Godlinesse but denied the light and Power as William Bownd hath gotten the good words painted himself with a covering but not with the Spirit of the Lord woe is his Portion for and to all who make a shew of Goodnesse but their lives and conversations contrary a blind Zeal but not according to truth and out of that blind zeal doth judge of the things of God judges truth to be Error and puts light for darknesse and darknesse for light as thou William Bownd and all blind Professors ever did persecute and hate them who were Professors and did walk in the life and Power of truth and to thee William Bownd and all people that were present that day at David William's house was the word of the Lord declared a mongst you and that of God in all your consciences shall for ever bear Testimony for the Lord and his word and it shall stand for ever and shall not go out in vain and shall be thy condemnation for ever and all that slight it and his Messengers and we shall be a good Savour unto God both in them that believe and in them that perish and what was spoken there of the mystery of Godlinesse which is hid from all vulterous eyes and venemous Beasts shall stand for ever and concerning redemption and the groanes and cryes of the Innocent that groaneth for deliverance as Israel groaned under Pharaoh this shalt thou Bownd and all people one day confesse to be truth and I appeal to all of that in thy conscience and all peoples consciences when any evil of sin is committed upon the sense and feeling of it many times sighes and groanes will be heard and the groans and cryes are entered into the eares of the Lord of Sabbath and he is now risen in his Majesty and dreadful Power for the redemption of his own people and will burn up the chaffe the wicked and carnal Professors and give them their Portion in the lake of endlesse misery and this shalt thou witnesse when the Book of conscience is opened and the liar hath his Portion And whereas thou Bownd saith That after Alexander Parker had done speaking thou spake unto him Whether he did own any part in man which is to be redeemed besides that pure principle which he had been speaking of and thou sayest he did not answer to the question which thou propoundedst which thing

their poisoned Cups notwithstanding you have soon learned that same Lesson of opposing railing cursing and condemning of all those that tread not in your foot-steps because they are not taken with those fancies that you have fixed in your own braines although thousands of them are more Heavenly and Spiritual then you your selves Also you use your uttermost endeavours to make the Saints names odious in the sight of others By these and other meanes you have caused the blind to go out of the way and the seeking Souls to look back have you not also quit and sold all your reading your meditating and your earnest seeking of God for railing and frivolous contending about you know not what yea about a false Doctrine that was never found in the Rowles of God's Divine Court and never owned nor confirmed by his dear and onely Son nor published by his Holy Spirit which is to say That all mens Souls are either God or one with God and cannot be defiled with sin nor condemned for sin and that all the Plagues and woes that are pronounced are but against the external or outward part of man the which shall be done away Here I have briefly out of love and not in opposition unto any but onely unto the man of sin given you a discovery of the snare that is secretly layed before your Souls but if you will shut your eyes and stop your eares and so wilfully remain blind your blood shall be upon your own heads and I shall here wash my hands from the guilt of your erronious revolt Now unto you the Cainish Cathedral Stone-church Priests and Tithe-mongers and new upstart Hirelings you are all for what you can hear said against any that in any measure do oppose you in your function Although I have put my hand to the publish of the discovery of some men's Errors think not that I shal put my least finger to the maintaining of yours you are all for the back and belly and for your own glory if you had but wherewith to attain it some of you have been for these many years daunted with the fear of your own ruine yet you usually rejoyce to hear that any are cryed down besides your selves Let the sight and feeling of your own covetous carnal corrupt mindes stop your mouths Let your proud and haughty hearts become meek and lowly Let your confounded Languages become silent And let your Babel-building cease Let your own eloquence and Scholasticke wisedom become foolishnesse So that you may be wise Let those that stole steal no more Let shame cover your faces and let your glory fall to the dust Let God arise and let all flesh be silent before the Lord. Your dumb Ministry is fruitlesse and your words are empty vain and pithlesse and shall not profit the people saith the Lord. Your Spirits are benummed by your unlawful gain and you and your Souls are become Servants and Slaves unto the unrighteous Mammon Your calling is by a mortal and inferiour Power and your places have you purchased with your corrupt Silver Your strength is in the Arm of flesh Your Authority is of mortal men And they that authorize you are like unto you The Lord God hath a controversy against you and you are all abuilding of a confounded tottering Tower that shall shortly fall upon your own heads Now unto you blind-folded worldlings and prodigal proud stone-Kirke Members the Devil hath found you a Toy to play withall in these dayes those seldom times that you come under the means of grace true Preaching of the word whereby you in being attentive diligent to hear might have a right and true salve applied unto your wounded and corrupted Souls But instead of so doing your wanton scoffing minds are then by your Driver fitted for another design you slight all that is said concerning your own dangerous sinful slavish condition and you also are all for what you can hear is said in opposition against others And thus you idlely and vainly wear out your few dear-bought dayes and spend them in fulfilling of your own false wills The minor Party you scoffe and jear at and all that they maintain be it true or false The Major party and their sayings you brag and boast be it right or wrong Your opposing of the one Party is more out of the bitternesse of your Spirits against the truths they sometimes speak of then out of any sensible knowledge that you have of the Errors they maintain And the other Party that you sometimes vainly prate for it is out of your partiality and outward respect you have to their persons or rather would be respected by them more then out of any love you have to any truth that they hold forth for you know not truth from falshood neither can you discern between Errors and found Doctrine because you have forsaken the God that created you and ye know not your Redeemer your hearts are made fat your eyes are shut and your ears are stopped you see but discern not you hear but do not understand Isai 6.20 You sleight the meanes of grace and you know not the day of your Visitation Your terriblenesse and the pride of your hearts hath deceived you O you that dwell in the clefts of the Rocks and proudly walk upon the high Hills and make your nests as high as the Eagle or amongst the Stars yet I will bring you down saith the Lord. Jer. 49 20. Obad. 4. You forsake the Paths of uprightnesse to walk in the wayes of darknesse you rejoyce to do evil and delight in the frowardnesse of the wicked Woe be unto you that call good evil and evil good that put darknesse for light and light for darknesse that put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes prudent in their own sight Woe unto them that are mighty to drink Wine and men of strength to mingle strong drink which justifie the wicked for reward and take away the righteousnesse of the Righteous from him therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble and the flame consumeth the chaffe so their Root shall be rottennesse and their Blossome shall go up as dust because they have cast away the Law of the Lord of Hosts and despised the word of the Holy one of Israel Isai 5.20 21 22 23 24. O Poor wretched and miserable men let this be told you that your temporal joy is the producing of your Eternal woe and sorrow and that the time draweth near when your laughter shall be turned into weeping and your joy into heavinesse and you shall be deprived of all your temporal enjoyments and the object of your foolish mirth and youthfull rejoycing shall be done away and then sorrow and grief will approach unto you and horror and anguish will seize upon you and you will be found naked and void of the Wedding-Garment and be bound hand and foot and cast into utter darknesse there shall be weeping and gnashing of Teeth Now unto you carnal Professors and meer lip-labourers that draw near unto God with your mouths and honour him with your lips but your hearts are far from him You have learned to talk of a God and Godlinesse but the onely true God and the Power of Godlinesse you know not your chiefest Treasure is transitory and the object of your joy is but for a moment your Webs shall not become Garments neither shall you cover your selves with your works your works are the works of Iniquity and the Act of violence is in your hands the way of peace you know not and there is no Judgement in your goings you have made unto you crooked Paths whosoever goeth therein shall not know Peace Woe be unto you that are at ease in Zion yea you that have put your hands to the Plow and are looking back therefore you are not fit for the Kingdom of God Amos 6.1 Luk. 9 62. You sow the wind and reap the whirl-wind you conceive chaffe and bring forth stubble your words are empty your Wombs are barren and your brests are dry Your building is founded upon the Sands you are a fruitlesse Vineyard Isai 5.2 Bearing sowre Grapes you are Clouds without Water carried about with winds dry Branches Trees whose Fruit withereth without Fruit twice dead pluckt up by the Roots Jude 12. O blind naked and miserable men let this be told you that the work of regeneration and the new birth is an earnest work and that it requireth very much careful watching and continual striving Luk. 13 24. Marke 13.33 35. And earnest pressing to be brought forth out of the corrupt something into the pure nothing which is all in all Now unto the despised seeking Souls who earnestly seek the Lord in truth in sailing over this Ocean of misery your Ship hath been grievously toffed by many a raging Wave and by side-winds have been cast near many dangerous Gulfs yet during the time of these storms and tempests by great providence and unspeakable mercies you cast forth your Anchors upon a sure Rock and when the calm cometh so that you take a view of those dangers that you have escaped and rejoyce yet you ascribe not the glory of your deliverance unto your selves but earnestly make toward the promised Land notwithstanding you mourn over those that are over-turned yet your mourning shall be turned into joy your building is founded upon the Rock your Treasure is not corrupt You have a building of God an house not made with hands Eternal in the Heavens No Lion shall be there nor any Ravenous Beasts shall go up thereon it shall not be found there but the Redeemed shall walk there And the Ransomed of the Lord shall return and come to Zion with Songs and everlasting joy upon their heads and they shall obtain joy and gladnesse and sorrow and sighing shall flee away With whom I desire to commune and associate continually who am your Friend and Fellow-traveller WILLIAM BOWND FINIS Printed at LONDON And are to be sold by Daniel White at the seven Stars in Pauls-Church-Yard 1658.