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B13698 A dialogue or conference betweene Irenæus and Antimachus, about the rites and ceremonies of the Church of England: by Samuel Gardiner, Doctor of Diuinitie Gardiner, Samuel, b. 1563 or 4. 1605 (1605) STC 11575; ESTC S102819 49,951 71

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diuided from the West about Leauen and Easter in all counsels continually new Creeds Decrees were coyned Of late yet the two names of Luther and Zwinglius haue made no small garboiles in the Church And the Papists would choake vs with this bone of our home-borne new-fanglenesse and factions But therein they pull themselues by the noses for I know no greater wranglers then themselues For their Scotists and Thomistes are together by the eares about the dunsicall distinction of Merits of Congruitie and Condignitie about originall sinne in the Virgine Mary about solemne and simple vowe The Canonists contend for auricular confession concluding it to bee Deiure humana positiua that it is of humane and positive constitution And the Schoole men squabble with them for it and auouch that it is Deiure diuino it hath foundation in diuine ordination Albertui Pigghius differ from Caietan Thomas from Lambard Scotus from Thomas Oceanus from Scotus Alliensis ●●●m Occan the Nominalls from the Realists How many dis●entions haue there beene among the Monkes and shauelings which some in fish some in flesh some in hearbes some in shooes some in slippers some in a linnen garment some in a woollen weede haue reposed religion while some would goe in blacke other in white others would be more broadly others more narrowly rounded and shauen others would be in their slippers and others go bare-foote others would be girt others would be loose Antim What of all this be the peoples mindes neuer so contentious we cannot be too religious we must therefore come as nie perfection as we can according to Christs precept Be yee perfect as your heauenly Father is perfect Iren. True but this your conformitie nothing derogateth from this your Christian perfection or profession but it will rather giue furtherance vnto it For it is a rule in Philosophie and reason Vis vnita fortior conioyned helpe is strongest Antim But how doe wee goe forward in this perfection when we keepe at a stay as the Sunne in Gibeon or the Moone in the valley of Aiaton in the daies of Iosua Iren. This stay is in yourselfe or rather your backwardnes that stop the course of your good proceedings in the singularitie of your affections The regions are not onely white vnto haruest but drie to the fire therefore we cannot labour too much in the Lordes haruest now you put your selfe to silence for these ceremonies Antim These ceremonies came in with the childhoode of the Church in the minoritie of it and the grace of them is gone now with the times Gal. 4. When I was a childe saith Saint Paul I did as a childe but since I was a man I did put away childishnesse And now seeing we know God or rather are knowne of God why turne ye then to the impotent and beggerly ceremonies of the law Iren. The godly fathers of the Church in the purest estate thereof commended them vnto vs and antiquitie a testimonie not to be reprehended hath confirmed them and euer there was good vse of them and neuer any harme in them Irenaus the antient father often appealed to those antient Churches that were nighest Christs times Antiquitie is the seale of the grace of the ceremonies as it is of sundry other things wine that is the oldest is best for no man that may haue olde wine will taste of new for he saith that old is better It graceth wisdome which is rather in the older then the younger sort weapons are for young men Prou. 22. and wisedome for the old It adorneth the truth for that is truest which is first and custome that is oldest is best approoued Wherefore it is prouided by law not to remooue the antient borders which our fathers haue placed And friendship that hath beene of longest continuance is of best countenance Eccli 9. Wherefore it is said Forsake not thine owne friend and the friend of thy father for a new friend will not be like him Olde trained and practised souldiers are more skilfull and coragious Wherefore C●ytus said to Alexander Doost thou despise thy father Philips Souldiers The landes and possessions that haue beene longest in the name and in the stocke is of chiefest reckoning Which respect was so great with Nabaoth as no money that the King could offer him could preuaile for the purchasing of it but he shooke him off with this absolute deniall 1. Kings 21. God keepe me from selling the inheritance of my Ancestors to them And this was Barzalia his plea to Dauid when he would haue induced him to liue in the Court with him I am fourescore yeeres old I will therefore goe into mine owne cittie and I will bee buried in the graue of my father and my mother Antim I perceiue that you are the ceremonies great maister and heerein you are not to be misliked that your nature is according to your name studious of the outward peace of the Church wherein I would concurre for peace sake with you but that these outward Rites are so offensiue to my conscience and verie zeale draweth my inclination from them to the other side Iren. You must not holde forth the target of Conscience to defend disorder your conscience and zeale must haue a good cause of its side or else it will be wrong with you I will not any way preiudice this your zeale and conscience but I must tell you this that the worst sort of all take vp this plea and allegation for themselues 2. Sam. 15. to shadow their nefarious and vngodly doings Absolon when hee went to proiect his rebellion made pretence and colour to his father of religion that he was to goe to performe his vowes to the Lord in Hebron 1. Sam. 15. Saul pretended conscience and zeale of sacrifice and obedience in reseruing the fattest cattell of the Amalekites when hee was most disobedient Math. 2. Herod seemed to be zealous to worship the child Christ when his meaning was contrary Iohn 12. vtterly to haue destroyed him Indas made as though conscience to the poore touched him when he murmured against the deuotion of the woman that brake the sweete and pretious box of ointment vpon the head of our Sauiour whenas he cared not a farthing for the poore but rauished and robbed them being a pursebearer and a pilferer The old Donatists in Augustines time made a conscience in breaking their owne neckes as our moderne Anabaptists that sprang out of them make it a matter of conscience of breaking the necke of the Churches gouernement Wherein Antimachus I doe not meane you or any of your fellowes God is my recorde yet I must needes say you beare them companie a mile or twaine in the way though there your discretion serueth you to leaue them There is zeale in you but yet it is such as somewhat beguileth you with a copie and countenance that it hath of the truth For as the wicked hang this maske and muffler before their eyes