by the Grace of God of England Scotland France and Ireland King Defender of the Faith c. your Supream and Natural Lord not having the fear of God in your hearts nor weighing the Duty of your Allegiance but being moved and seduced by the instigation of the Devil the cordial love true due and natural Obedience which true and faithful Subjects of our said Soveraign Lord the King towards him should and of right ought to bear wholly withdrawing and devising and with all your strength intending the peace and common tranquility of this Realm to disturb and the true Worship of God within this Kingdom of England used and by the Law established to overthrow and the Government of this Realm to subvert and Sedition and Rebellion within this Kingdom of England to move stir up and procure and the cordial love and true and due obedience which true and faithful subjects of our said Soveraign Lord the King towards him should and of right ought to bear utterly to withdraw put out and extinguish and our said Soveraign Lord the King to Death and final Destruction to bring and put on the four and twentieth day of April in the thirtieth year of the Reign of our said Soveraign Lord King Charles the second at the parish of St. Giles in the Fields in the County of Middlesex aforesaid You the said Thomas White otherwise Whitebread John Fenwick William Harcourt otherwise Harrison John Gavan Anthony Turner and James Corker with diverse other false Traitors subjects of our said Soveraign Lord the King to the Jurors unknown falsly subtilly advisedly maliciously and traiterously did purpose compass imagine and intend Sedition and Rebellion within this Kingdom of England to move stir up and procure and a miserable slaughter among the subjects of our said Soveraign Lord the King to procure and cause and our said Soveraign Lord the King of his Kingly State Title Power and Government of his said Kingdom of England utterly to deprive depose cast down and disinherit him our said Soveraign Lord the King to death and final destruction to bring and put and the Government of this Kingdom of England the sincere Religion of God within the same rightly by the Laws of the same established at your will pleasure to change alter and the State of this whole Kingdom of England through all its parts well instituted ordained wholly to subvert and destroy and War within this Kingdom of England against our said Soveraign Lord the King to levy And to accomplish and fulfil your said most wicked Treasons and traiterous imaginations purposes You the said Thomas White otherwise Whitebread John Fenwick William Harcourt otherwise Harrison John Gavan Anthony Turner and James Corker and other false Traitors against our said Soveraign Lord the King to the Jurors unknown the said four and twentieth day of April with Force and Arms c. in the Parish aforesaid and County aforesaid falsly maliciously subtilly advisedly devillishly and traiterously did assemble unite and gather your selves together and then and there falsly maliciously subtilly advisedly devillishly and traiterously did consult consent and agree our said Soveraign Lord the King to Death and final Destruction to bring and put and the Religion of this Kingdom of England rightly and by the Laws of the same established to the Superstition of the Romish Church to change and alter and the Government of this Kingdom of England to subvert and that one Thomas Pickering and one John Grove should kill and murder our said Soveraign Lord the King and that you the said Thomas White otherwise Whitebread John Fenwick William Harcourt otherwise Harrison John Gavan Anthony Turner James Corker and other false Traitors against our said Soveraign Lord the King to the Jurors unknown should therefore say celebrate and perform a certain number of Masses then and there amongst your selves agreed on for the soul of the said Thomas Pickering and for that cause should pay to the said John Grove a certain sum if money then and there amongst your selves agreed on and that you the said Thomas White otherwise Whitebread John Fenwick William Harcourt otherwise Harrison John Gavan Anthony Turner and James Corker and other false Traitors to the Jurors unknown in further prosecution of the Treasons and traiterous Consultations and Agreements aforesaid afterwards the said four and twentieth day of April at the Parish aforesaid in the County aforesaid falsly subtilly advisedly maliciously devillishly and traiterously did severally each to the other engage your selves and upon the Sacrament traiterously swear and promise to conceal and not to divulge the said most wicked Treasons and traiterous compassings consultations and purposes aforesaid amongst your selves had traiterously to kill and murder our said Soveraign Lord the King and to introduce the Romish Religion within this Kingdom of England and the true reformed Religion within this Realm rightly and by the Laws of the same established to alter and changes and that you the said Thomas White otherwise Whitebread John Fenwick William Harcourt alias Harrison John Gavan Anthony Turner and James Corker and other false Traitors to the Jurors unknown in further prosecution of your said Treasons and traiterous intentions and agreements aforesaid afterwards the said four and twentieth day of April at the Parish aforesaid and County aforesaid falsly subtilly advisedly maliciously devillishly and traiterously did prepare perswade excite abet comfort and counsel four other persons to the Jurors unknown subjects of our said Soueraign Lord the King traiterously our said Soveraign Lord the King to kill and murder against the Duty of your Allegiance against the Peace of our Soveraign Lord the King his Crown and Dignity and against the form of the Statute in that Case made and provided How sayst thou Thomas White alias Whitebread art thou guilty of this High Treason whereof thou standest indicted or not guilty Whitebread My Lord I desire to speak one word I am advised by Council and I may and ought to represent it to this Court for not only my own life but the lives of others of his Majesties Subjects are concerned in it That upon the 17 th of December last I was tryed upon the same Indictment the Jury was impannell'd and called I put my self into the hands of the Jury and the Evidence was brought in and examin'd particularly against me and was found insufficient so that the Jury was dismissed without any Verdict I humbly submit my self to your Lordships and this noble Court whether I may not have Counsel in this point of Law to advise me whether I may and ought to plead again the second time for according to Law I am informed no man can be put in jeopardy of his Life the second time for the same cause Lord Ch. Just You say well Mr. Whitebread Whitebread I speak it not for my sake only but the sake of the whole Nation no man should be tried twice for the same cause by the same reason a man
J. Mr. Corker you have heard the Indictment read◠〈◊〉 what it consists of a Traiterous endeavour to subvert the Government to Mor◠〈◊〉 King to change the Protestant Religion into Popery if you have any witnesses that can be serviceable to you as to these matters name who they are and where they live if you cannot you had as good take your Tryal now as at another time Corker I not only have no witnesses ready but there are substantial circumstances which peradventure may arise which may induce your Lordship to believe me innocent and therefore I humbly beg I may stay some short time to consult with those that are better skill'd in the Law than I am L. C. J. What do you mean to have counsell assigned you Corker My friends my Lord. Lord Ch. Just Every man knows his own case beâ—â— you have been bread a Scholar and so you cannot be so ignorant as other men arâ— you can tell whether you have any Witnesses that you think are material for your defence Corker That day of the 24 th of April spoken of in the Indictment I truly and really believe I was not in Town that day but I cannot positively prove it because I heard not of it before Lord Ch. Just Is there any body that can testifie where you were that day can you name any one Corker Yes I believe I can name one and that is one Alice Gaton that is now 30 miles out of Town at Tunbridge who can prove where I did go about that time Lord Ch. Just I l'e tell you what if my Brothers will this woman you suppose can say something for you we will respite your Tryal for to day send some body for her and we will Trie you to morrow Lord Ch. Just North. Or any other Witnesses for as to this 24 th day of April it is known to all the world to have been the day of the Consult But because you pretend a surprise I must tell you that Mr. Attorny sent you notice with the rest but because you might be led into another opinion that the Council did not order it you have the favour to be put off till to morrow Get your Witnesses ready if you can Lord Ch. Just If you have any other Witnesses or desire any order for their appearance let us know it Corker I desire I may have liberty to have my Tryal put off till Monday Lord Ch. Just North. No it cannot be Monday is the Assogin day and then the Commission will be out Lord Ch. Just Call the Jury Cl. of Cr. Thomas White alies Whitebread hold up thy hand and so as to the rest You the Prisoners at the Bar those men that you shall hear call'd and personally appear are to pass between our Soveraign Lord the King and you upon Tryal of your several lives and deaths if therefore you or any of you will challenge them or any of them your time is to speak unto them as they come to the Book to be sworn and before they be sworn Call Sir Philip Matthews Whitebread We Challenge him my Lord that there may not be any further trouble it is our general Petition that none of those that were for any of the former Tryals may be of this Jury they having already pass'd their Judgment upon the Evidence they have heard Lord Ch. Just You may Challenge them And therefore speaking to the Clerk of the Crown dont take any that were upon the last Jury for this cause Gavan Nor any of the former Juries we do this that we may avoid giving your Lordship any farther trouble because if we should stay upon particulars we should too much trouble the Court. Lord Ch. Just North. Look you I will tell you by the way you have the liberty to Challenge peremptorily so many All we can do is to give direction to the Clerk if he do not pursue it we do not know them we can't tell you must look after that Mr. Recorder You have the Books wherein are notes of all their names by you Then The Jury that were Sworn were these Twelve JURY Thomas Harriott William Gulston Allen Garraway Richard Cheney John Roberts Thomas Cash Rainsford Waterhouse Matthew Bateman John Kaine Richard White Richard Bull and Thomas Cox Cl. of Cr. Cryer count these Thomas Harriott Cryer One c. Cl. of Cr. Thomas Cox Cryer Twelve good men and True stand together and here your Evidence Then the usual Proclamation for Infornation was made and the Jury-men of Middle-sex Summon'd and not Sworn were dismiss'd till next morning eight of the Clock Cl. of Cr. Thomas White alias Whitebread hold up thy hand and so to the rest You Gentlemen that are sworn look upon the Prisoners and hearken to their Cause they stand indicted by the names of Thomas White c. put in the indictment Mutatis Mutandis and against the form of the Statute in that case made and provided Upon this Indictment they have been Arraigned and thereunto have severally pleaded not Guilty and for their Tryals have put themselves upon God and their Country which Country you are Your charge is to enquire whether they or any of them are Guilty of the high Treason whereof they stand Indicted or not Guilty If you find them or any of them Guilty you are to enquire what Goods or Chattels Lands or Tenements they had at the time of the High Treason committed or at any time since If you find them or any of them not Guilty you are to Enquire whether they fled for it if you find that they fled for it you are to Enquire of their Goods and Chattels as if you had found them Guilty If you find them not Guilty nor that they nor any of them fled for it say so and no more and hear your Evidence Then Mr. Belwood of Counsel for the King in this cause open'd the Indictment thus Mr. Belwood May it please your Lordship and you Gentlemen of the Jury The Prisoners at the Bar Thomas White alias Whitbread John Fenwick William Harcourt alias Harrison John Gavan and Anthony Turner together with James Corker stand Indicted of High Treason 't is charged in the Indictment That the 24 th of April in the 30 th year of the King that now is These persons with other Traitors unknown did purpose and conspire to stir up sedition and Rebellion to cause a miserable slaughter of the Kings Subjects to depose the King of his Government and bring him to death and to change the Government and Religion by Laws established and to Levy war against the King And 't is further charged in the Indictment that pursuant of this intention of theirs and the better to bring it to pass They did Assemble Consult and agree First to bring his Maiesty to death to Murther the King and thereupon to change the Religion Established by Law to the Superstition of the Romish-Church and to subvert the whole Government and it was agreed that Pickering and
to Rise when the Blow should be given in England Lord Ch. Just was that in Whitebreads's Letter Doctor Oates Yes my Lord and Mr. Whitebread did say He did hope it would not be long ere it was given Now my Lord by the word Blow we did use to understand and had instructions to understand the death and murder of the King and in the month of January I think it was that he sent over two Jesuits into Ireland to see how the state of Affairs stood there in the beginning of April they returned of which we had an account from Mr. Whitebread by Letters wherein there was mention of a Consult to be held in the month of April old Stile and May new Stile according to the Order there given there met at that Consult the Prisoners at the Bar Whitebread Fenwick Harcourt and Turner and if it please your Lordship all these at that Consult did Sign a Resolve Mr Whitebread at his Chamber which was at Wild-house Mr. Fenwick at his Lodgings in Druâ—y-lane and Mr. Harcourt who had some at his Chamber in Duke-Street But my Lord I am to premise this before I go any further that the Consult was begun at the Whitehorse Tavern in the Strand and there they did agree to send Father Cary to be their Procurator at Rome and after some such things were done they adjourned into several Clubs or Colloquies or what you please to call them One was at Mr. VVhitebread's Chamber another at Ireland's Chamber that is Executed another at Harcourt's and another at Fenwick's now here was a Resolve Signed by these Prisoners at the Bar in which Lord Ch. Just That is four of them Whitebread Fenwick Harcourt and Turner Dr. Oates Yes my Lord. Lord Ch. Just Was Gavan there Dr. Oates I dare not my Lord affect him with that because I cannot be positive but I le give you my Evidence against him by and by My Lord these four Gentlemen with the rest of their Accomplices did Sign a resolve which was this That Pickering and Grove should go on in their attempt to dispatch the King and this they did resolve upon and gave it as their Judgment as a very excellent expedient My Lord after this Consult we did return we were 8 or 10 that came over and may it please your Lordships in the month of June I think it was June he came to Flanders in order to visit his Colledges being Provincial of the Jesuits of England He did stay there as near as I can remember till the 10 of June and enquiring of the Fathers how Squares went in Town among other expressions he used this was one That he hoped to see the black Fools head at Whitehall laid fâ—st enough and that if his Brother should appear to follow in his footsteps his Pasport should be made too or to that purpose he should be dispatch'd Upon the 13 th of June old Stile the 23. new Stile I had orders to come for England according to which Order I came and did take the Pacquet-Boat as near as I can remember the 24 th which was 14 th old stile and we landed at Dover the 25 th very early in the morning and when I was at Dover I met with the prisoner at the Bar Mr. Fenwick and he my self and some others did take Coach and come as far as Canterbury after we had eaten and drunk there we came six miles further where there was a Box seized by the Searchers of the Town of Borton and this Box was brought up by Mr. Fenwick and directed to one Blundel and the Superscription was as near as I can remember in these words To the Honourable Richard Blundel Esq at London And this prisoner at the Bar Mr. Fenwick did desire that the Searchers would send it to him it was full of Beads and Crucifixes and such things to the Fountain Tavern near Charing-cross and writ a Letter to him by the name of Mr. Thompson a that was the name he usually went by when he came to Dover and he had then brought some Students there to send over to St. Omers L. C. J. When went Fenwick Dr. Oates When I came to Dover I met Fenwick by the name of Thompson going to send over the Students and Fenwick did say if they had searched his pockets as they had searched his Box they had found such Letters as would have cost him his life for saith he they were about our concern in hand Then we came up to London and arrived at London the 17th of June old stile for we lay a part of the way at Sittenburgh in the morning and in the afternoon we came to Dartford and came to London Monday noon the 17th old stile And in the month of July there was one Richard Ashby whose right name indeed is Thimbleby but he went by the name of Ashby and this Gentleman did bring over Instructions from the prisoner at the Bar Mr. Whitebread who was abroad in Flanders wherein he was to propose 10000 l. to Sir George Wakeman to poison the King and several other Instructions there were of which I cannot now give you an account and withal that a blank Commission should he filled up and ordered for Sir John Gage to be a military Officer in the Army and by that Gentleman 's own orders I delivered that Commission into Sir John Gages own hand on a Sunday Lord Ch. Just Where had you that Commission from Whitebread Dr. Oates It was signed and sealed by him but it was a blank and was to be filled up L. C. Just Where Dr. Oates It was at Wild-House L. C. J. How was it filled up Dr. Oates It was filled up by Mr. Whitebreads order it was signed and sealed blank and he ordered it to be filled up and me to take that Commission and carry it to Sir John Gage Whitebread Did I order you Dr. Oates You ordered Ashby I saw the Letter and knew it to be Whitebreads hand L. C. J. Was it before he went to St. Omers Dr. Oates It was while he was at St. Omers Whiteb. What day was it what hour Dr. Oates It was in July Whiteb. What time of the month Dr. Oates The beginning or middle Whiteb. Are you sure it was in July Dr. Oates I cannot be positive but I think it to be in July for Ashby went to the Bath the latter end of July or the beginning of August and it was before he went Whiteb. Who was present at the signing of this Commission Dr. Oates There was present at the filling up of this Commission Mr. Harcourt Mr. Ashby and Mr. Ireland Fenvick Was not I there Dr. Oates I think I filled it up I 'le tell you when you were there presently My Lord when Ashby went away Fenwick went out of Town but returned again presently to give an account how Squares went and really I cannot remember where he had been but as near as I can it was in Essex I will not be positive
any Question Gav Mr. Oates you say you saw my Name to a Letter for the taking up of money To whom was that letter writ Dr. Oates There was a letter from you to Mr. Ireland And he did receive it by the hands of Grove Gavan Where was that money to be taken up Dr Oates My Lord I say that letter was received by Grove who is out of the way and can't prove it and was delivered to Ireland L.C. J. I perceive your memory is not good Gav I perceive his memory is very good Dr. Oates This letter did give an account of the business of Staffordshire and the particulars of that Mr. Gavan did afterwards give an accompt of by word o mouth and â—ome other things not fit to be named Gavan Pray where was it Sir that I gave an account of it in London or in the country Dr. Oates In London Gavan In what month Dr Oates In July it was Gavan What part of July Dr. Oates It was when Mr. Ashby was in Town the beginning or middle Gavan Just now you said it was in the latter end Dr. Oates My Lord I beg this favour that if the Prisoners at the Bar ask any questions they may be proposed to the court for they are nimble in their Questions and do a little abuse the Evidence They put things upon them that they never say Mr. Just Pemberton propose your questions to the Bench that you would have asked Gavan I will do so my Lord in whose Honour I have more confidence than in whatsoever Mr. Oates says or swears L. C. J. But he tells you who you drew your Bill of exchange upon and that was Sir William Andrews L. C. J. North Don't give the King's Witnesses ill words L. C. J. Have you any more to ask any of you Whitebread Yes my Lord. L. Ch Just See if you can catch him he gives you a long and exact accompt as can be given by any man in England and pray direct your self Mr. Whitebread to the Court. Whitebread He says he was here in April and at the Consult now I desire to know how long before that time were you I acquainted Dr. Oates Why before that time I never saw Mr. Whitbread's face Whitebread what imployment were you to have and what reward Dr. Oates When I came away from St. Omers I was to attend the motion of the Fathers at your Chamber and to carry the Resolve from chamber to chamber where the Fathers were respectively met Fenwick was not you at the White-Horse-Tavern Dr. Oates Yes I was there Fenwick Did you dine there Dr Oates No our stay was short there Fenwick How long did you stay in Town Dr. Oates Truly I can't tell you exactly but from the time I came into England to the time I went our again was under Twenty days Fenwick Who were they that came over with you Name the Parties Dr. Oa I will tell you who they were but it 's so long since I can't exactly remember Fenwick You need not trouble your memory you have them in your Narrative Dr. Oates My Lord there was Father Williams the Rector of Wotton the Rector of Leige Sir John Warner Sir Thomas Preston and some others Whitebread Was not Mr. Nevel there Dr. Oates I believe he was it is like he might be there Whitebread Was not Sir Robert Brett there Dr. Oates I believe he might Whitebread You have said so in your Narrative L. C. J. Perhaps a man will venture to write more than he will Swear not that he does Write what he does not believe but that he knows he ought to be more cautious in his Oath than in his Affirmation Fenwick My Lord with your Lordships favour it is upon Oath L.C.J.N. Fenwick you are in a Court of Law and we must go according to the Law if you will prove any contradiction in him to his Oath you must bring the persons here that saw him take the Oath and you must not think to take a Pamphlet for Evidence Fenwick It was Sworn before a Justice of Peace and will not I suppose be denied and therefore he must make his Evidence agree with it being part of his Narrative Gavan You speak of one thing in August and of another in July which month saw you me in Dr. Oates I told you I saw you in Town in July and when Father Ashby or Thimbleby was in Town And you said you would go and see him Just Pemberton He says it was in July and that is enough Gavan What time in July Dr. Oates It was towards the middle or latter end Gavan Was it before Mr. Ashby went to the Bath Dr. Oates It was so Lord Chief Just He says he saw you in Town when Ashby was in Town which was towards the latter end of July or beginning of August He cannot tell exactly whether but positively he says before Mr. Ashby went to the Bath Lord Chief Just North Well to satisfie you we will ask Mr. Oates the Question again Can you recollect whether it was the middle or latter end of July Dr. Oates My Lord as near as I can remember it was about the middle of July that Ashby came to Town and he did not stay in Town above a Fortnight And it was whilst he was in Town and designed to go down to the Bath That this Gentleman came to Town and gave accompt of the particulars of that Letter Lord Chief Just North You may ask him any Questions but I would have you observe what accompt he gives That about the middle of July Ashby came to Town that he staied in Town about a fortnight as he believes that during that time you came to Town and then was this Discourse Dr. Oates During that time I saw him in Town but I know not exactly when it was Gavan My Lord I would ask him one Question the thing that is brought against me is this He says Mr. Ashby came to Town in the middle of July that he stayed in Town a fortnight that while he was there I came to Town and had such Discourse Now my Lord I desire to know whether it was the first week or last week that Ashby was in Town that he saw me Lord Chief Just If he can answer it let him Dr. Oates My Lord I cannot Lord Chief Just He tells you he cannot charge his memory with it Dr. Oates No my Lord nor will not Lord Chief Just Really I believe there is scarce one in all this company able to give an accompt of a particular time of a passage so long ago Gavan No doubt he hath an excellent memory Lord Chief Just And if he had not some memorials of this he could not do it And though he hath memorials of the most eminent passages yet we cannot suppose he hath of all circumstances Gavan But this is the substance and your Lorship may conceive that not without Reason I urge it for if Mr. Ashby came to Town the beginning
of July and stayed but a fortnight in Town and I came to Town while he was here it must be in one of the two last weeks Now I would have it assertain'd because I may disprove it in one week or in the other Lord Chief Just 'T is true you did not amiss in asking the Question if he were able to answer it but if it be either it is enough to prove you Guilty Gaven Pray was it only one time or diverse that you saw me in London Dr. Oates It was but one day but as near as I remember I saw you twice that day and I le tell it you by a particular circumstance that I saw you in the afternoon when you were a little illish and there was a cordial brought to you by an Apothecary that went by the name of Walpoole L. C. J. Here is memory refresh'd by a circumstance you see Whether was it brought to him Dr. Oates To Ireland's chamber Gaven Who brought it Sir L. C. J. An Apothecary he says whose name was Walpoole Gavan My Lord I never saw Walpoole in all my life L. C. J. I believe he is known well enough such an one as Walpoole the Apothecary But aske what questions you will Dr. Oates I cannot say whether it was Walpoole himself or his man that brought it Gavan I do as truly believe there is a God and Heaven and an Hell as any one here does as I hope for Salvation as I hope to see God in Heaven I never saw Mr. Oates before the day in January when he says I had the Periwig on and he did not know me And as for July I call God to witness I never saw him then L. C. J. You were in town in July Gavan Upon my Salvation I was not in London L. C. J. You 'l prove that by and by Fenwick I hope my Lord we may ask him any questions in the court of our Evidence to make things clear L. C. J. Yes you may Turner Did you ever see me in all your life before you saw me at Whitehall Dr. O. You were then in a disguised habit a nasty periwig I did not know you so well Turner You at Whitehall was pleased to tell me I went by another name Dr. Oates I don't value names but your person you are the man L. C. J. You are the man he says Turner Did you see me at the Consult Dr. Oates I saw the man that speaks to me Turner Who was there and how many were present Dr. Oates There were about 40. or 50. L. C. J. When you have but one name a piece then he can hit it right but when you have so many names then you are too hard for him Turner Did you see me at the Whitehorse Dr Oates That I will not say for when they were in lesser Clubs or Colloquies I was sure of better acquaintance with them Turner Where was it you saw me Dr. Oates At Mr. Fenwicks Chamber Turner At Whitehall you said it was at Wild-House Dr. Oates My Lord because the chiefest part of the consult sate at Wild-House we called all it the consult at Wild-House L. C. J. I 'le your defence will be little else but captiousness to disprove him in circumstances of time place persons or numbers now all these are but little matters to the Substance T is true Mr. Whitebread If you can prove you were not at that place a that time it will do you great Service Have you any thing more to say to him Lord Ch. Just North I hope your witnesses are in readiness that you were sp◠〈◊〉 â—f to fortify your Testimony Dr. Oates Yes my Lord they are I desire they may be heard Lord Chief Justice By and by when occasion is Jury My Lord I desire he may be asked one Question L. C. J. Mr. Garraway what Question would you aske him Jury Where it was that he saw Mr. Turner at the Consult Dr. Oates I saw him at Fenwick chamber where he was a member of the Consult and being so I saw him sign the Resolve of the Kings death Lord Chief Just Did you see him Dr. Oates Yes I did Sir Crâ—sw Levins Then we desire Mr. Dugdale may be sworn which was done Come Mr. Dugdale pray will you tell my Lord and the Jury what you know concerning Whitebread and Harcourt First about Whitebread Mr. Dugdale My Lord I have very little acquaintance with the man I have seen him at Tixall with my old Lady Aston Lord Chief Just When Mr. Dugdale I dare not speak the time but appeal to him himself about the truth of it Lord Chief Just Is it years ago Mr. Dugdale It is two or three years ago Lord Chief Just Well what can you say against him Mr. Dugdale Mr. Whitebread did write a Letter that I saw under his own hand inclosed in a Letter from Mr. Groves to Mr. Ewers wherein he gave Mr. Ewers a caution to be sure to choose those that were very trusty it was no matter whether they were Gentlemen or no so they would be but stout and couragious This was the purport of the Letter I cannot say the words exactly but that he should chose those that were hardy and desperate or to that purpose Lord Chief Just Pray where was it you saw that Letter Mr. Dugd. At Tixall Lord Chief Just How came you to see it Mr. Dugdale Because all the Letters were directed to me that came to Mr. Ewers inclosed in Mr. Groves Letters And so I intercepted the Letter and read it Lord Chief Just What was Mr. Ewers Mr Dugdale A Jesuit my Confessor for I was entertained by Mr. Gavan to be in the conspiracy of the Kings death and so I was by several others Lord Chief Just You were not acquainted with Mr. Whitebreads hand were you Mr. Dugdale My Lord I only came acquainted with Mr. Whitebreads hand by seeing him write a Letter at Tixal which he delivered to me to send L. C. Just I pray let me understand you You say that Mr. Whitebread did write a letter to Mr. Ewers inclosed in one from Mr. Grove wherein he advised that he should entertain lusty stout fellows and no matter whether they were Gentlemen or to that effect Now I ask you how you do know that was Whitebreads hand or was it his name only that was to it Mr. Dugdale My Lord I saw his name at it Lord Chief Just When you saw that Letter had you ever seen his hand before Mr. Dugdale Yes my Lord I saw it to another Letter which I saw him write â—â—rd Chief Just And that was like the hand in the Letter to Ewers's was it 〈◊〉 Dugdale Yes I do almost positively swear it was the same hand 〈◊〉 Ch. Just But what say you to Gavan and Ewers 〈◊〉 â—â—gdale There were several Consultations in Mr. Ewers's chamber my 〈…〉 at Boscobel and several other places Mr. Gavan might he so ingenuous to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Chief Baron What were those Consultations
for Mr. Dugdale For conspiring the Kings death and introducing of Popery Mr. Gavan was chiefly made use of as a good Orator and learned man â—â—â—d a good Scholar to perswade people into the design this I speak as to these personâ— Lord Chief Just Pray go on Sir for you shall have a full scope for you never were a Witness in any of the Trials before and you may take your own way and you shall be heard you shall not be interrupted for what you say is very considerable Mr. Dugdale One meeting I think was in September last it was aâ— â—â—â—â—l and there was my Lord Stafford and several others Lord Chief Just Was Gavan there Mr. Dugdale Yes Mr. Gavan was there I suppose he will not deny it Mr. Justice Pemberton Don't rely upon that he will deny it you may be sure go on You say he was there Mr. Dugdale Yes and that was to carry on the Design And I was by to hear I think Mr. Ireland was in the countrey then there was you speaking to Mr. Gavan Mr. Peters Mr. Lewson and Mr. Ewers at this Consult and there was another my Lord Stafford and others that I cannot now name Gavan What time Mr. Dugdale It was in September 1678. Gavan What day Mr. Dugdale I think it was 21. September Lord Chief Justice What was that Consult and Conspiracy about in short Mr. Dugdale It was for the introducing of Popery and taking away the Life of the King I being a person chosen out for that purpose and was to besent to London by Mr. Harcourt to be under the tuition of Mr. Parsons Lord Chief Justice Pray who mentioned this was that the first time that ever they discoursed of the death of the King Mr. Dugdale No my Lord it was two years ago but I speak of a shorter time Lord Chief Justice Who began the discourse Mr. Dugdale Mr Gavan often discoursed of it and incouraged me to it Lord Chief Justice Who broke it first to you who seemed that principal man Mr. Dugdale Ewers and Gavan Lord Chief Justice By the Oath that you have taken repeat it once more for this is new to Us. Gavan 'T is so to me too upon my soul for upon my conscience I never heard of it before Lord Chief Justice 'T is a mighty confirmation of what was before discovered Mr. Dugdale But I speak to Mr. Gavan and appeal to him himself Gavan Look upon me with confidence if you can Mr. Justice Pemberton You must not threaten the Kings Witnesses Mr. Dugd. Mr. Gavan I desire you to inform the Lords and all here present whether I was not under your Tuition and whether you knew any unjust action by me Gavan You were never under my Tuition Lord Chief Just Did you ever know him Gavan Yes my Lord he used to come sometimes where I was and so we were acquainted and I lived within 11 miles of Tixal my Lord Astons and having acquaintance in that Family Mr. Ewers whom I know very well I used to come there sometimes but I never was in his Chamber in my life In what Room of my Lord Astons house was this Discourse Mr. Dugdale Some of it was in the little Parlour and some in Mr. Ewers's Chamber Gavan Were any present there And who were they Mr. Dugdale I have told you there was Mr. Ewers and Mr. Lewson and Mr. Peter's and some others and for a further Confirmation of this That Mr. Gavan may know that I had a great zeal for him and that they did love me well I gave them an Estate or else I believe they would not have trusted me so well as they did I gave them 400 l. to pray for my Soul and for the carrying on of this Design and when they told me they doubted they should want money I promised them 100 l. more for the carrying on the work Upon which Mr. Gavan promised me that I should be Canoniz'd for a Saint Mr. Just Pemb. Mr. Gavan himself Mr. Dugdale Yes my Lord. Mr. Belwood What do you know of any Forraign Assistance Lord Ch. Just I would seign have all the world hear this pray what was Discoursed in the Parlour in my Lord Ashon's house and in Ewer's Chamber Mr. Dugdale It was about taking away the King's life and introducing the Popish Religion Lord Ch. Just By the Oath you have taken was that their Discourse Mr. Dugdale Yes my Lord They were contriving how to kill the King and introduced Popery Sir Cr. Levins Pray have you heard any Discourse of an Army or about making a Massacre Mr. Dugdale It was spoken in my hearing and there was some discourse why they should expect Forces from beyond Sea and this Gentleman said meaning Mr. Gavan though they Beyond the Seas had Troubles enough upon themselves yet if we could effect it men and money would not be wanting I will add nothing more than the Truth in what I say L. Ch. Just You deliver your Testimony like a sober modest man upon my word Sir Chr. Levins What say you as to a massacre Mr. Dugdale My Lord I have at some Consulations heard speak of it but the chief thing that they aimed at was first there was a letter that came out of Paris and came through Mr. Harcouort's hands and so came down into the Country to prove that it was the Opinion of them at Paris and St. Omers to fling all this upon the Presbyterians that is the Death of the King That if any thing of that nature should happen they should be ready to give the first Alarum and give out That it was those still King-killing Presbytorians that had done the Fact And so they thought they should easily have brought in the Episcopal party into their Company to revenge themselves of the Presbyterians Lord Ch. Just It was prity Advise indeed to have it first laid on the Presbyterians that they might get Protestants to join and cut them off and then their own Throats should be cut Mr. Dugdale And then my Lord there was to be a massacre and if any did escape that they could not be sure of were Papists they were to have an Army to cut them off Mr. Belwood Did he ever use any Arguments to you to prove the lawfulness of the Design Mr. Dugdale Yes my Lord he hath and shewed me several Examples for confirming me in it Lord Chief Justice What for killing the King Mr. Dugdale For the killing of any to introduce their own Religion Mr. Belwood Pray will you name some Mr. Dugdale He endeavoured to prove it by Scripture I cannot now call the Text to mind but it was to shew how it was lawful and good to destroy any for the advantage of their Religion and then he shewed the Example of Father Garnett How several of his Reliques being beyond Sea great miracles had been done by them Lord Chief Justice And so now there is by St. Coleman too Sir Cr. Levins What Letters have you received from
Mr. Harcourt Mr. Dugdale I have received several Pacquets of Letters from several persons beyond Seas which were by his instruction communicated by Mr. Grove to Mr. Ewers which Letters did contain Treason in them for the introducing of Popery and killing and destroying the King Lord Chief Just How can you tell that Mr. Dugdale Mr. Harcourt hath given it under his own hand and I have intercepted the Letters and read them Lord Chief Justice You were acquainted with the hand Mr. Dugdal◠〈◊〉 my Lord. Lord Chief 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 read the Letters then Mr. Dugdale Yes my Lord I did Lord Chief Justice How many Letters have you intercepted have you interepted Twenty Mr. Dugdale Yes 100 my Lord Mr. Harcourt was the first that gave intelligence into the Countrey as I know of of the death of Sir Edmondbury Godfrey Sir Cr. Levins Tell when it was given and how Mr. Dugd. I have made it out already upon Oath and I have Witnesses to prove it Sir Cr. Levins Pray Sir tell it now Mr. Dugdale It was directed to Mr. Ewers and it was three days before he was found for it was received on the monday and he as it is proved was killed on the Saturday The words were these This very night Sir Edmondbury Godfrey is dispatched And I very much rejected Mr. Ewers for this Action and then told him This will overthrow the Design or I will be hanged Lord Chief Just What day did you receive the Letter Mr. Dugdale I have proved I received it on a monday Lord Chief Just But pray what date did it bear Mr. Dugdale That Letter must come by Saturday Post for it said This night Sir Edmondbury Godfrey is dispatched Lord Chief Just He did not name any body by whom Mr. Dugdale No but it said he was killed and we knew by whom Mr. Justice Pemberton And are you sure that was Mr. Harcourts letter Mr. Dugdale Yes for he did usually sign his letters with two letters W. H. which stood either for Harcourt or Harrison Mr. Belwood Did you acquaint any body with this or did you conceal it Mr. Dugdale I did go to an Alehouse that is hard by my Lords the next day which was Tuesday and there I asked if they did not hear some news of a Knights being kill'd at London And I have an Evidence here if your Lordship please I will call him who I desire may testifie the same thing Lord Chief Just Yes by all means Sir Cr. Levins Mr. Dugdale Pray will you give us some more account of the letter that came from Mr. Whitebread to Mr. Ewers Mr. Dugdale I remember one particularly but I cannot tell what number I have seen Sir Cr. Levins Did you see more than that one Mr. Dugdale I particularly remember that Lord Chief Justice What was that one particularly Harcourt My Lord I desire to ask him one Question When was the last time that you received any letters from me Mr. Dugdale The last I received from you to my best remembrance was that about Sir Edmondbury Godfrey and it was in October Harcourt I have not writ to that person this year and half Lord Chief Justice Let that man be called that proves this business of the death of Sir Edmondbury and the talk of it Mr. Dugdale mr Harcourt you know very well that when Mr. Ireland was last in the Country last year you were to send him the Answers that came by letters from Saint Omers and those were sent down to my Lord Astons and I saw them eight of those letters I am sure And I can prove it by one circumstance two of them came relating to Mr. Edward Astons death from Paris I intercepted them and talking of it that I could conjure and tell of the death of Mr. Edward Aston before any of his Friends knew of it And Mr. Ireland writ a chiding letter about it that he had not heard it sooner and you sent down word That you did write those letters and yeâ— you say you have not written to me of a Twelvemonth or more Harcourt This Gentleman does pretend to know my hand and 't is true I have writ several letters for Mr. Ewers and directed to him but as to this time he speaks of I have left off writing for divers years He pretends to know me and yet this Gentleman before the Committee of Commons in Parliament which was yesterday was 5 weeks as well as he knew my hand came and said I was a Gentleman he did not know He came also to entrap me at the Gatehouse before those Gentlemen of the Committee of the House of Commons but because he said he knew my hand so very well and testifie those expressions in the letter I must say this I never did write any such letter nor did I ever in my life seem to approve of any mans death or murder But the thing is this he pretends to know my hand and to prove it the Gentlemen desired me to write my own hand and my name and he in the mean time did withdraw and three of them did write their names afterwards they called him in again and asked him which was Harcourts hand he was not able to say which it was Lord Chief Just You write more hands as well as have more names and can counterfeit your hands as well as change your names Mr. Justice Pemberton You speak before your time and your bare word goes for nothing Lord Chief Justice But Mr. Dugdale where is your Witness Harcourt I don't know any thing of this Lord Chief Justice But if he calls up a Witness of whom you can have no suspicion that can testifie that at this time Mr. Dugdale spoke about the death of Sir Edmondbury Godfrey What will you say to that Harcourt I believe there is no such thing at all â—ir Cr. Levins My Lord here is Mr Chetwin pray swear him Which was done L. C. J. Mr. Chetwin Do you remember that Mr. Dugdale came to you any time last â—ummer and what time and what discourse had you Mr. Chetwin My Lord if your Lordship please I was most part of the Summer in the Country I came into Staffordshire about the 29th of August My Lord there is a Gentleman one Mr. Sanbidge that is a Kinsman of my Lord Astons that was very well acquainted with the Family where I was which was half a mile off my Lords and used to come and play with me at Tables My Lord at that very time in October he came to me and there says he Do you hear nothing of a Justice of Peace in Westminster where you live that is killed or to that effect No said I and I had Letters yesterday and heard nothing of if Saith he I was this morning at Elds and there a Girl of the House told me Mr. Dugdale had been there and reported that there was a Justice of Peace of Westminster was killed but who he should be I never heard named and on Saturday
was this Mr. Dugdale At Tixal and other places Turner In what month Mr. Dugdale It was about two years ago about the beginning of the Business Turner Where was it Mr. Dugdale It was at Mr. Ewers Chamber you know me very well Turner I have not been in Staffordshire these four years L. C. J. why don't you know him Mr. Turner Turner I do know I have been there a matter of three or four times in my whole life but have not been there these four years Mr. J. Windham Have you any thing to say against Fenwick Mr. Dugdale I don't know that ever I saw him before Mr. Recorder But he speaks fully as to the other Four Sir Chr. Levins Call Mr. Prance and swear him Which was done Sir Chr Levins Come on Mr. Prance What can you say to Mr. Fenwick or any of the others Mr. Prance Mr. Harcourt I made him an Image of our Lady about a year ago and when I was receiving mony for it it was to be sent into Merry-Land you told me then that there was a design of killing the King Lord Ch. Just Who told you Mr. Prance Mr. Harcourt that very time Sir Chr. Levins When was it Mr. Prance It was when it was sent to Merryland in the Portugal's Countrys you know it well Mr. Harcourt Harcourt I know nothing of it Sir Chr. Levins Pray let him alone till we have done with him Harcourt I desire but to know when it was Mr. Prance When I received the money for the picture it was a year ago Sir Chr. Levins What say you to Mr. Fenwick Mr. Prance I was in Mr. Ireland's chamber in Russel-Street and there was Ireland Fenwick and Grove and they were talking of 50000 men that should be raised and be in readiness to carry on the Catholick cause and settle the Catholick Religion I asked who should Govern them they told me my Lord Bellasis my Lord Powis and my Lord Arundel Lord Ch. Just Who told you so Mr. Prance Mr. Fenwick Lord Ch. Just How long ago Mr. Prance About a fortnight Michaelmas last Mr. Grove came to me two or three days afterward to buy two or three Silver Spoons to give away at a Christning and then I asked him what Office he should be in he told me he could not tell but he told me my Lord Arundel my Lord Bellasis and my Lord Powis had Commissions for these things to give L. C. J. This Grove told you Mr. Prance Yes my Lord. L. C. J. But what did Fenwick tell you Mr. Prance He told me who were to govern the Army my Lord Bellasis my Lord Powis my Lord Arundel of Wardour Sir Ch. Levins Had he any discourse with you about Trade Mr. Prance He said I should not fear Trade I should have Churchwork enough Mr. Belwood Pray speak that again Mr. Prance I asked him what shall we poor Tradesmen do if you have civil wars in England O said he you need not fear having trade enough you shall have Church-work enough to make Images Chaâ—ices and Crucifixes and Vases and such like things Mr. Belwood If you will ask Mr. Prance any questions pray do Fenwick My Lord I am certain of this that he never saw me at Mr. Ireland's chamber in that company not did I ever speak of any such thing before him Mr. Prance Mr. Ireland and he have been sitting together whole hours and consulting about some concern or other mischief no doubt My Lord I went to Mr. Fenwick's chamber after my Ghostly Father was dead L. C. J. What was his Name Mr. Prance Father James And he importuned me to come to confession to him I told him I was not yet very well satisfied who I should go to to be my Ghostly Father Fenwick When was this Mr. Prance Mr. Prance Before Michaelmas about a week or eight days L. C. J. Did not you know him Mr. Fenwick Fenwick Who Father James yes very well and I know Mr. Prance but not upon that account Mr. Prance And I brought you a Table home for the Altar at the same time Mr. J. Pemberton Who was it importuned you to have him for your Confessor Mr. Prance It was Mr. Fenwick and I told him when I did come to Confession I would come to him And he injoyned me onâ—e or twice to say nothing of what I heard said L. C. J. If Harcourt have any questions to asked him let him Harcourt Can you say that ever â—â—pose to you about any such Business M. Prance Yes as sure as I stand in this place and you in that And one Thomson came with you when you paid me for four Candlesticks L. C. J. Do you know Mr. Thompson Harcourt Yes I do L. C. J. Had you any Chandlesticks from Mr. Prance Harcourt I had a great while ago Mr. Prance He paid me 44 l. that time for them Mr. Recorder Call Mr. Bedlow Who was Sworn Sir Chr. Levins What can you say to any the prisoners at the Bar L. C. J. What can you say as to Mr. Whitebread and Mr. Fenwick Mr. Bedloe My Lord I do not question but Mr. Whitebread and Mr. Fenwick will object against me my refusing to give in Evidence against them at the former Tryal but I think that there are some upon your Honourable Bench that can make my Apology for not giving in all my Evidence aginst them then for it was not convenient because it would have stopt a Design I was then upon and could not get off from that was about Mr. Reading whom I was then treating with for Mr. Whitebread and Mr. Fenwick as well as the Lords in the Tower and he told me that he would depend upon my confidence Justice as to the Lords according as I did deal with these men if I brought them off he would believe the Lords in the Tower believe that I would bring them off too So that I did make an Apology them in the Court that I could not safely say all that I had to say at that time Some of the Justices I believe do remember it and in that which I did give in against them I did not say all nor half that I could have said Whitebread Did you say any thing of that at the last Tryal Mr. Bedloe I will answer that matter to the Court but 't is the measure they always take to intrap the Witnesse for now I am out of a country that will give me an indulgence and dispensation to speak exactly to a day or an hour as their St. Omers Witnesses have L. C. J. But what say you now to them Mr. Bedloe I did then say that I did see M. Whitebread and he hath been in several consultations for the carrying on of the plot but then I did it with a caution that I never heard of Mr. Whitebread that he was so very much concerned and indeed I had no reason to say so because I heard him my self and could not well speak from the hearsay of
another And as for Mr. Fenwicke I never heard him give in any Answer but I have seen Fenwick at the Consult there L. C. J. Have they ever told you any thing concerning the Killing of the King Mr. Bedloe Whitebread told Coleman at Mr. Harcourt's Chamber the manner offending the four Russians to Windsor about September Harcourt I never saw him twice in all my life before Mr. Belwood Do you know of any Reward those Russians were to have Mr. Bedloe Yes I saw Harcourt take the money out of a cabinet I think it was fourscore or One hundred pounds the sum I don 't well remember Harcourt paid them the money by Mr. Coleman's order and gave the messenger a Guiney from Mr. Coleman to drink his Health Mr. Coleman was gone a little before I came in and so I could not know that Coleman gave it but he said so Sir Chr. Levins What was Pickring and Grove to have Mr. Bedloe Grove was to have 1500 l. and a Promise of the Favor of the Lords 1500 l. was the Sum appointed at Mr. Harcourts chamber and doubtless in several other places but there I heard it from Mr. Whitebread and Prichard and le Faire Kaines and Pickering was to have a number of masses I can't tell exactly how many but they were so many as at 12 d. a mass would amount to be equal to Mr. Grove Mr. Belwood Pray Sir what was that for M. Bedloe For killing the King But Pickering had been disciplined before and received a Check from the Superiors because he had been negligent and slipt many opportunities One time the Flint of his Pistol was loose another time there was no Powder in the Pan another time he had charged with all Bullets and no Powder Lord Chief Justice Did you see Harcourt deliver the Guiney for the Expedition of the Windsor Business Mr. Bedloe Yes my Lord as from Coleman to drink his Health Mr. Belwood Pray was either Whitebread or Fenwick knowing of the Agreement when it was spoken of Mr. Bedloe I have seen Fenwick at Harcourts and Whitebreads chamber when it was spoken of they were all of one Opinion they had decreed it I never saw Whitebread but twice at Harcourts chamber where one time was Harcourt himself at another time was Pritchard and le Faire and others at which time Sir George Wakemans Business was spoken of and because he would not accept the 10000 l. 15000 l. was agreed to be given him and upon Sir George's Tryal I shall let you know where he had the money too but I desire to be excused at present I shall speak it to morrow Lord Chief Justice What did they consult there Mr. Bedloe They were consulting how it should be done and what should be done if they did not do it Then Ireland proposed that the most certain way was to do it at his morning walks in Newmarket Fenwick was to go and with him went Grove Pickering and Coniers I heard seven or eight of them were to go Lord Chief Baron What say you to Turner Mr. Bedloe Of Mr. Turner I know nothing but what I have heard others say Lord Chief Baron What say you to Gavan Mr. Bedloe I know nothing of him but only I have heard Mr. Harcourt say he hath been a great manager of this Business Lord Chief Justice That is nothing to the purpose what others say Mr. Bedloe Mr. Harcourt is no stranger to my bringing of Pacquets and Portmantles over to him from beyond the Seas Harcourt He never brought but one in all his life-time Mr. Bedloe What Did I never bring but one Pacquet Have not I brought divers and divers Portmantles Harcourt You never brought a Portmantle in your life Mr. Bedloe I have brought divers Harcourt You know I never saw you but twice in my life before to day and when I met with you at the Privy Council Mr. Bedloe My Lord the Triaâ—s have been so put off that I could never get all my Witnesses together but I have 7 or 8 of my Witnesses that are out of Town that would make this very clear My Lord there was never a Pacquet of letrers that I brought over to Mr. Harcourt but did contain in it a Design of the Subversion of the Government and it must be more than two Pacquets that I have brought over for I have brought letters from Watton and letters from St. Omers and letters from Bruges and from Paris and from Valledolid and Sallamanca and all these letters contained in them the management of this Plot how far they had proceeded beyond Sea and Answers how far they had proceeded in England from him and to them to and again from time to time in carrying on the Design of Subverting the Government and altering the Religion wherein was given an account of the Army and Forces that were to be raised both here and beyond Sea what Contributions were made or expected at home or abroad all was lodged in Mr. Harcourts hands at least wise an account of the greatest rare And I have been sent to Mr. Langhorn with Papers from Harcout about this Affair to Register them and of that I shall give you an account upon Mr. Langhorns Tryal Lord Chief Justice Well now ask him what you will Whitebread Sir I desire to ask you one Question Mr. Bedloe I desire it may be asked the Court. Whitebread I desire to ask him whether he was a Lieutenant in Flanders or no Mr. Bedloe Yes I was Whitebread Of Horse or Foot Mr. Bedloe Of Foot Whitebread Take notice there is no such Officer of Foot in all Flanders Mr. Bedloe I was then in the Regiment of the Prince of Freizland Whitebread There are no Lieutenants in all the Flanders Companies only Captains and Alfaras Mr. Bedloe My Lord I had a Commission and I have a Commission to be so and I desire I may send for it Lord Chief Justice It is no very material thing as soon as it comes they shall see your Commission Harcourt You say you have had Papers from me and been very familiar with me Pray how can this be when as I did declare before the Lords in Council that was the third time I ever saw your face The first time he came to me he brought letters from Dunkirk five years ago when I opened them I found them directed to other persons and to them I sent them my name being only used in the outside Cover it seems upon that confidence that he had in me at that time not long after he came to my chamber told me he had lately become a Roman Catholick and by that means had lost his Friends and that he then was in want and unless I did assiâ—t him it would be very hard with him though his Father disserted him yet he had some Friends whom he expected would do something for him and then I will repay you Lord Chief Justice When was this Harcourt The second time that I ever saw him
in Oates or Bedlow's power to shew that Commission this is just like that of the Bill of Exchange neither does it in any of the letters Fenwick Here is Mr. Hilsly my Lord. Whiteb. My Lord we pray we may have the favour that they may be sworn Lord Chief Just North. By law they cannot L. C. J. N. In no Capital case against the King can the witnesses for the Prisoner be sworn but I will say this to the Jury That they are not sworn is because they cannot but the Jury is to take great heed of what they say and to be governed by it according to the credibility of the person and of the matter Gavan My Lord if you please to give me leave my Lord Coke in his Institutes sayes expresly That there is no positive Law against it his words are there is not so much as scintilla Juris against it L. C. J. No. We know that the constant usage and practice is so and you cannot produce any man that in any Capital case had his witnesses sworn against the King L. C. J. My Lord Coke says otherwise That the evidence should be so plain that nothing could be answered to it and therefore no evidence should be sworn against the King Gavan My Lord those are the words of my Lord Coo. L. C. J. You argue against the known practice of all Ages L C. J. No. There never was any man in a Capital cause sworn against the King The common Law is the custome of the Kingdom and we are bound to know it and must all be governed by it Whitebread In mr Ireland's Tryal pag 35 36. he says he came over with Sir John Warner Father Williams and mr Hilsley from St. Omers Mr. J. Pem. Nay you must not resort to the printed Tryals for evidence Fenwick If we can prove him perjured at any time I hope we may L. C. J. Suppose upon the taking of those printed Tryals they mistake shall mr Oat therefore be thought guilty of perjury If you have any thing to ask of your Witnesses which you can apply to the evidence given now you may Fenw. Mr. Oates did not you your self own then you came over with mr Hilâ—sh Dr. Oates Ask me any question about what I have given to day and if the Bench think it reaâ—â—nable 〈…〉 answer it Fen. My Lord he 〈…〉 m that he came over with these persons in which he is for swrrn L. C. J. He is not convicted of perjury and therefore that must not be urged Fen My Lord we will prove by witnesses that were at the Tryal that he did affirm so And I do desire now to know â—f you Mâ—â—â— whether ever you came over with mr Helsly Dr. Oates That which I said then and that which I say now is because you should not puzzle your selves that one Mr. Hilsly did come over with us when we did Hilsly My Lord I did not L C J How can you tell Hilsly I left him at St Omers L. C. J What say you Mr. Oates Dr. Oates 'T is true mr Hisly did leave me at St. Omers because he went out a Sunday morning and I came out of the munday morning but I overtook him at Calis Hilsly my Lord that is false and I have a great many here that can prove it L. C. J. What Religion are you of Hilsly I am only to serve his Majesty L. C. J. Are you not to serve God too Hilsly I am first to serve God and then his Majesty Mr. J. Pemberton Are you a Catholick L. C. J. Are you a Roman Catholick Hilsly Yes my Lord I am Mr. J. Pemberton Be not ashamed of your Religion do not deny that your Provincial here can give you a dispensation for what you say Hilsly I hope a Roman Catholick may be a lawfull witness L. C. J. Yes I deny it not This is that you say you left him at St. Omers you must call more Witnesses to back him Master Oates sayes 't is true you left him at St. Omers but he overtook you at Calis Dr. Oates This Gentleman lost his money at Calis and Father Williams did relieve him by my means Lord Chief Just What say you to that Hilsly Why my Lord yes it is true I did lose my money there but it is nothing to the purpose for I will affirm I was never in the ship with him in all my life Dr. Oates I desire he may be asked whether he be in the degree of a Priest or not L. C. J. That would be a hard question to put to him to make him accuse himself It would bring him into danger of Treason Mr. J. Pemberton He is a Boy very fit to make a Jesuit of L. C. J. How could he then come to know this Hilsly I confess 't is true that Mr. Oates did never come over with me And I have Witnesses to prove that they saw him there next day at St. Omers and two or three several weeks after Sir Christopher Levins Mr. Oates hath another Circumstance to prove it by Dr. Oates He went away from us by the way and did not come up with us to London Hilsly I know how he understood â—his There was a Gentleman that the Witnesses will prove he was very familiar with the 2d of May that told him L. C. J. Is that Gentleman here Hilsly Here is one here to prove it L. C. J. And did he tell him how you lost your mony Hilsly Yes my Lord I suppose so L. C. J. I speak seriously I do not understand how he could come by these things Parry my Lord I can testifie if it were lawful for us o wear and prove that he was at Saint Omers that day when he says he came over L. C. J. What is your name Parry my name is William Parry L. C. J. What Country-man are you Parry I am a Flintshire man L. C. J. When was he at St. Omers Parry He was there that 25th day that day he says he came over L. C. J. Was he there all day Parry He did not stir thence all the day L. C. J. How can you tell that Parry I din'd with him that day he went into the Infirmary he did not go out of the Colledg he was sick Fenwick Mr. Parry how long did Mr. Oates stay there at St. Omers Parry He staid till after the 20th of June I am sure for on the 20th of June I know he was present by a very good circumstance he was at an Action of ours a Latine Play Dr. Oates My Lord as to the going into the Infirmary at that time I deny it My Lord if your Lordship please I will shew that this Gentleman is not only a Votary of the Jesuits but hath been one of the Sodality several years And they have Dispensations and are bound by an implicite obedience to say what the Jesuits bid them who are their Superiours L. C. J. What say you to the 20th of June the time he says
you were there at the seeing of the Play Dr. Oates my Lord as to that twentieth of June I was there and there was an Action at that time for I was then returned thither from London Parry I deny all that for he never stirr'd out of the Colledge L. C. J. Youngman in what Quality were you there Parry I was a Student there a Poet. L. C. J. How can you say he did not stir thence all the while Parry I know by a particular thing I din'd and supp'd with him there but when he was in the infirmary but the particular passage was this He did there fall out with a Gentleman that was in the Infirmary too L. C. J. When was that Parry It wâ—s â—t thâ— time that he says he came away L. C. J. When wâ—â—â— he 〈◊〉 Parry Tâ—e 25â—h of April Old Style and staid a matter of three or four days Dr. Oates Will you be pleased to take notice of this he says that Hilsley left me at St. Omers when he cam◠〈◊〉 and that the next day he dined with me and that I went into thâ— Iâ—fiâ—niâ—â— â—hâ—â— he says was the 25th of April Old Style Now we will run to a gâ—â— ad huminâ—m 〈◊〉 this â—â—re the 25th of April Old Style how did Mr. Williams meâ—t with Mr. Hilsly iâ— Caliâ— â—â—d râ—store him his money when the 24th old stile Mr. Williams was at the coâ—sul◠〈◊〉 London L C. J. When was it that you say Mr. Hilsley was at St. Omers Fenwick Answer my Lords Question Parry He went away the 24th of April as I Remember Lord Chief Just What Old stile Parry Yes old stile acccording to the reckoning there D. Oates But my Lord upon the Oath that I have taken if he mean new stile all that this Gentleman hath said about this is false except that I was there the 20th of June Lord Chief Just Was it new stile or old stile that you say Mr. Hilsly went away Mr. Recorder He does not know new stile from old stile Parry He went the 24th that is the old stile beyond Sea Whitebread I do desire he may answer whether he does know that Mr. Oates was ever out of the house from the time he came in December till June but one night Parry No he never was out but one night at Watton Lord Chief Justice From what time to what time Parry It was but two days and one night Lord Chief Just What time was it that he was there first Parry He came thither in December Lord Chief Justice And he did stay there all the while Parry He did not stir from the Colledge till the end of June and never went out but a day or two as I know of L. C. J. Not as you know of but might not he go and you not know of it Parry I am sure of it L. C. J How can you tell Parry Not a Scholar goes from thence to England but the whole Colledge rings of it Gaven And then my Lord when they go out they go in Secular Cloaths that none but must know when any person leaves the Colledge Dr. Oates My Lord in such cases though t is true in a general sense yet it is but a general Rule and every general Rule admits of its exceptions and my case was a particular Exception I put on the habit of the House as soon as I did return from London and did not appear as if I had gone out of the House nor did I know that it was known that I had been out for I did never appear in a secular habit Whitebread What his Cloaths were does not change the place he sate in he being ancienter than the Boys had a priviledge to sit in a particular place which must be known to all the House at Dinner and Supper He was visible every day there L. C. J. I do believe it and therefore he says not only that he was reported to be there but that he saw him there almost every day Then another Witness for the Prisoner stood up L. C. J. What say you young Lad Doddington I say my Lord L. C. J. What is your name Doddington Doddington Dr Oates Pray my Lord ask him if he went by that Name at St. Omers Mr. J. Pemberton What was your Name at St. Omers Doddington My name was Hollis there L. C J. How old are you Doddington Eighteen years and an half L. C. J. What can you say where was mâ— Oates Doddington He never went out of the Colledge but one night to Watton till the end of June L. C. J. When came he into the Colledge Doddington A fortnight before Christmas I did not mind the day he says himseâ—â— it was the 10th of December Lord Chief Just Was he there till June Doddington Yes he never went out till June but one night Lord Chief Just Where was that At Watton Doddington Yes my Lord. Lord Chief Just How do you know that Doddington I only know that by what all the house said Lord Chief Just Did you see him every day except that day Doddington I cannot say I saw him every day because he was in the Infirmary once and he was there that very day after Mr. Hilsly went away Lord Chief Just What day was it that Mr. Hilsly went away Doddington The 24th of April new stile and that day he fell sick and went into the Infirmary the next Lord Chief Just What day of the week was that Doddington It was of a Sunday Lord Chief Just And when did you see Mr. Oates Doddington On monday or Tuesday I am not certain Lord Chief Just How often did you see him from the 24th of April to June Did you see him every other day Doddington Yes that I am sure of for every other day I am not certain every day Lord Chief Just Are you positive Jury We desire to know what time of the year he was in the Infirmary Doddington I discoursed with him in the Infirmary two or three days after Mr. Hilsly went away Lord Chief Just But what time of the year was it Doddington He was there first in Winter and then afterwards he was in at this time which was in April Lord Chief Just Have you any more to say Doddington I can say more that I saw Mr. Oates the second of May with one Blood or Burnaby and I am sure I saw him in his company Lord Chief Just Where did you see him Doddington I saw him walking in the Garden with Mr. Burnaby Mr. Just Pemberton When did you come into England Doddington I came over the 24th of April Lord Chief Just How long have you been in England Doddington About two months Mr. Just Pemberton Why did you come over were you sent for over upon this ocâ—asion Doddington No I was not Mr. Just Pemberton Why did you come over Doddington I came over partly upon the Kings Proclamation Lord Chief Just What Proclamation was that L. C. Just North That those that were in
received a verdict and a judgment there for consider what will be the consequence of it if it should be false you there arraign a verdict You should have convicted him of the falshood first Whitebread I desire the Jury to take notice that he does not stick to the Testimony that he gave then for if he does it was false Lord Chief Just They must not take notice of any thing that was done at a former Trial unless it be spoken of now Lord Chief Just North Do not call any Witnesses to prove what he said then but to disprove what he hath said now Lord Chief Just 'T is a pretty hard matter to make a Priest understand one for what I see If the Witness shall not gain credit with the Jury that he came over with Sir Thomas Preston Sir John Warner if they are satisfied by those many Witnesses ten or twelve at least that it is false they ought not to believe him but as to that Testimony they ought to believe your Witnesses but he is not presently guilty of perjury for if they should not give â—redit to Mr. Oates you must indict him and another Jury must pass upon him before he is convicted for it is one thing to be forsworn and perjured and another thing to be proved so and he is not proved to be so but by a Record for that purpose Harcourt If so be our Witnesses cannot be lookt upon as good Witnesses then there can be no Commerce abroad in any other Country Lord Chief Just They are no doubt good Witnesses till they be proved otherwise and they are left to the Jury to believe as they think fit Harcourt Now here are divers things that are brought against my self by Mr. Bedlow Mr. Prance Mr Oates and Mr Dugdale if the Witnesses that I bring because they are Roman Catholick are not good Witnesses then I am in an hard case Lord Chief Just North Look then you mistake the thing those that are not Witnesses we do not hear at all but our hearing them at all proves that we look upon them as good Witnesses But when a man is a Witness he is either of more credit or of less credit according to Circumstances and 't is a proper question to ask them Whether they are Roman Catholicks but they are Witnesses without all question Harc I say my Lord these persons are known to be every one of them very bad and flagitious persons and that every one of them have undertaken this course meerly to get a livelihood they are men of desperate fortunes they get a living by swearing fast they find that the best trade Lord Chief Just North If you have any other Witnesses we will hear them If you have have no other Witnesses then we must hear what the Kings Council reply and then it will be your turn to say what you can in your defence Gaven I have Witnesses here It is not indeed a positive Evidence but a negative Evidence and I have a Brother and a Sister in Town and upon my salvation I never came to Town but I came to their house Lord Chief Just That will signifie nothing Mr. Harcourt have you any more Witnesses if you have them pray call them Harcourt 'T is in vain to call them if they be not to be believed because they are Roman Catholicks Sir Cr. Levins 'T is a mistake we do not refuse any Witnesses because they are Roman Catholicks Lord Chief Just No we have not refused any one Point yet Lord Chief J. North If you have any more pray call them and don 't spend the time Lord Chief Justice Call a Priest or two if you will we will hear them Harcourt Mr. Oates did accuse me of paying fourscore pounds at my chamber and he did say afterwards it was at Wildhouse I have persons to justifie what was done at my own chamber and he says Mr. Ireland was by now here are Witnesses to prove that Mr. Ireland was in Staffordshire all the month of August therefore he could not be present Lord Chief Just Does he say any such thing now Mr. Just Pemberton That was urged before pray do not insist upon that it hath received a Trial. Lord Chief Just I 'le tell you what he says and I 'le ask him the question Dr. Oates it is supposed by your testimony that Mr. Ireland and Mr. Harcourt were together when this fourscore pounds was paid for the Villains that went to Windsor to murder the King Dr. Oates I never said such a word Harcourt Here it is in the Trial. Lord Chief Just I stand not by the Printed 〈…〉 is no Record in Law In short Were Mr. Ireland and Mr. Harcourt together 〈◊〉 time Dr. Oates No they were not Gaven He did then say that he did receive of Mr. Ireland the 2 d of September 20 s. that he borrowed of him now the 2 d of September he was at Boscobel Dr. Oates My Lord I was not positive as to the day but as near as I remember those were the words I said it was the second of September but whether it was the first second seventh eighth or ninth I would not be positive in it Then the Prisoners called Pendrel and his Wife and Gifford and his Wife and Gifford stood up Gifford My Lord I was here the last Sessions where I did testifie the seeing of Mr. Ireland in Staffordshire on the 24 th of August Bartholomew-day and the next day after at which time Mr. Oates said that he saw him here in Town But Mr. Oates could not be particular in every thing but at last he came to a circumstance and averred that the first or second of September he did receive Twenty shillings of Mr. Ireland in Harcourts Chamber he said it was about the Fast day Dr. Oates That was as near as I remembred Gifford Here is in Court at least six people that know it I saw him several other of those days there but these six people converted with him every day Mr. Just Pemberton How do you know al that Lord Chief Just North Come come you must not speak as to what he said in Irelands Trial. Lord Chief Just What time was it that Mr. Harcourt and Mr. Ireland conferred together about this same business Dr. Oates My Lord I do not charge Ireland but I charge Harcourt with being at Wildhouse and that there Coleman met him and that there was the greatest part of the money which was carried back to Harcourts Chamber and given to the person that was to carry it down to Windsor but Mr. Coleman was gone away before and had lest a Guiney behind him which was given to the messenger for expedition Lord. Chief Just I am mistaken if you have not testified that Ireland was in Town in August and September with Harcourt Dr. Oates Ireland took his leave of London betwixt the 8 th and the 12 th of August as to go to St. Omers Lord Chief Just Here is the matter they
should have a great deal of company if you live there and 't is hard you should charge your self to remember a particular person you did not know before Pendrell My Lord he told me his name was Ireland and several others did so too L C J You had as good have let such trivial Evidences as this alone But go on Then Mrs. Pendrell stood up L. C. J. Do you know Mr. Ireland Mrs. Pendrell I did know by report it was he L. C. J. Where did you see him in August or September Pendrell At Boscobel my Lord. L. C. J. Did you never see him before that time Mrs Pendrell No my Lord L. C. J. Do you know it was the same man that suffered Mrs. Pendrell I will take my oath of it L. C. J. How I when you never saw him before that time Mrs. Pendrell I was in Town when he dyed Then stood up Mis. Gifford L. C. J. When did you see Mr. Ireland Gifford My Lord Mr. Ireland came to Wolverhampton the 17th of August and he stayed there till the twenty sixth it was of a Munday I remember it by several circumstances L. C. J. Did you know Mr. Ireland Gifford I never saw him before L. C. J. Do you know it was the same that dyed Gifford My Lord here was my brother in Town who saw him executed and he did assure me â—e was the same And I saw him again the second of September and the 7th of September again and the 10th and the 11th My Lord he was the same man I believe because my brother told me so Mr. Gifford I saw him in the Country and I saw him executed Then another Mrs Gifford stood up Mrs. Gifford I saw him at Pancrass Fair in Staffordshire L. C. J. Was it the same man that was Executed Mrs. Gifford My Lord I cannot say that I did not see him suffer but my Sister and I were at a Window and she shew'd him to me and said that was Mr. Ireland and told me how long he had been in England L C. J. How do you know that was the man that was executed did you see him tried here Mr. Gifford Yes my Lord I did L. C. J. And that was the same man Mis. Gifford Yes It was my Lord. L C. J. When was it your Sister shew'd you him Mis. Gifford I saw him upon the seventh of September Then stood up one Mr. Bedle. L. C. J. When did you see Mr. Ireland Bedle I saw him at a place called Millage in Staffordshire the second of September L. C. J. Are you a Roman Catholick Bedle. If I must make a confession of my faith I will But I saw him there and they said it was Mr. Ireland the Jesuit L. C. J. Had you no acquaintance with him before Bedle. No. L. C. J. How do you know it is the same man that suffered Bedle. I do not know that but I suppose it was the same Turner I am accused for being at Tixall a consult in September I desire to know who saw me there for I have not been there these four years L C J Mr. Dugdale saw you there Turner What Witnesses besides L. C. J None but he for that Mr. Recorder Hath Mr. Fenwick any more Witnesses to call Fenwick My Lord I have not any Then was Captain Hill called Fenwick My Lord he can prove something against Mr Bedloe He says he lived in good repute but the Captain will tell you he was in the Marshalsey and lived a poor mean life and all the time sed upon the Basket L C J North. He was guilty of the same Treasons that you are guilty of there is his fault L C J No doubt he was a naughty man he was with you in this Plot Fenwick I can prove by Sir James Butlers Clerk that he cheated a Cutler of a Silver hilted Sword Then Sir James Butlers Clerk was called but he having more than one and the person meant not being there there could nothing be examined about that L C J North He hath had the Kings Pardon for all that Fenwick He was forced to run the Country for a many Cheats and was forced to borrow 4â— or 5 s to redeem his Boots My Lord does his Pardon make him a good Witness Then we will prove something since his Pardon L. C. J. No doubt he was bad enough while he was with you Whitebread My Lord I think I have a plain Demonstration against mr Bedloe since his Pardon he did at my last Trial say that he had nothing to say against me and now he comâ—s and gives fresh Evidence against me L. C. J. North That is an Objection that will not take away his Evidence but only goes to the lessening of the credit of it He says he was in Treaty with Mr. Reading about you and the Lords in the Tower and to beget a confidence in him that the Lords â—n the Tower should receive favour from him and come off by his means he was to be easie to you too which made him lessen his Evidence at that time This is that he â—ays the weight of it must be left to the Jury And he said at that time he had more to say at time and place convenient Whitebread There is no such thing in the Trial. He hath alledged great matters against me therefore it is evident he did falsifie his Oath for if he were to swear the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth and he did not say the whole truth he is perjured if he did he can say nothing against me now L. C. J. North Mr. Whitebread you have your objection and it must be observed to the Jury You repeating of things signifie nothing Then Captain Hill stood up Fenwick Pray Sir what do you know of Mr. Bedloe Mr. Just Pemberton But don 't ask any thing before the Pardon Cap. Hill I knew him in the Marshalsey Fenwick In what condition was he there Sir Capt. Hill He was a poor man as I be and lived upon the Basket Harcourt How long ago is it since you knew him there Capt. Hill In May was twelve Month. L. C. J. That was long before his pardon But he might be an honest man for all that though he were as poor as you Are you an honest man Cap. Hill Yes I think so L. C. J. And so might he be well have you any more Prisoners No. Sir Cr. Levins Gentlemen of the Jury you have heard the Prisoners and they have had a great deal of time to make their defence but the greatest part of their defence hath been to invalidate the Testimony of Mr. Oates what is the Evidence they have brought against him they tell you first That he did not come over in that company that he says he came over with And whereas he hath sworn he was here the 24 th of April they have taken a great deal of pains by fifteen or sixteen Witnesses to prove that he was all the
if it had been true but though it be now settled and none could think it would be again started they would make that an Objection but by chance we have a Witness still to give you satisfaction that Mr. Ireland was in London at that time that Mr. Oates did swear him to be We will begin with that Witness about Ireland And then we will call our Witnesses to prove that Mr. Oates was in England and did come over when he said he did Call Sarah Pain Who was sworn Sir Cr. Levins What time did you see Mr. Ireland in London Did you see him in August last S. Paine I saw him about seven or eight days before I came to my Lord Chamberlain and that was about a week before the King went to Windsor Lord Chief Just Where did you see him S. Paine At his own door in Russel-street Lord Chief Just Did you speak to him S. Paine No I knew him very well and saw him as I came by Sir Cr. Levins Had not you carried many Letters to him S. Paine Yes several Letters Sir Cr. Levins But where did you live before S. Paine I lived at Mr. Grove's Sir Cr. Levins Did not Mr. Ireland use to come there too Sarah Pain Yes he did often Lord Chief Just Was any one talking with Ireland then S. Paine No. Sir Cr. Levins How long did you look upon him Did you see him go in did you see his Face or his Back S. Paine I saw his face and made him a Curtesie Lord Chief Just This she said to Ireland's Face Mr. Just Dolben Your Evidence is that Mr. Ireland went out of Town the 5th of August and she says she saw him about that time which must be the 12th or 14th of August Gaven How does she prove it she does not say she spoke with him Mr. Just Dolben She swears it Sir Cr. Levins Now we must prove what time the King went to Windsor Lord Ch. Just Sir Tho. Doleman what time in August did the King go to Windsor last Summer Sir Tho. Doleman I believe I cannot charge my memory so well it was the 13th it was about the 12th or 13th Lord Ch. Just Was my Lord Chamberlain there then Sarah Paine My Lord Chamberlain went after the King Lord Chief Just And when do you say you saw Ireland Sarah Paine I saw him seven or eight days before I went to my Lord Chamberlain's which was before my Lord went to Windsor and that was a week after the King went thiâ—her Sir Cr. Levins Now I 'll tell you what she says she says she saw Ireland a week before she went to my Lord Chamberlains and she saw him go into Groves House where he did usually go for Letters she says she saw his face and made him a Curtesie and that this was a week before she went to my Lord Chamberlains and that was a week after the King went to Windsor Now the time that Mr. Oates pitches upon is between the 8 th and 12 th of August which by computation is the time she speaks of Gaven And our Witnesses go from the third of August to the fourteenth of September Sir Cr. Levins Call Sir Richard Barker William Walker Sara â—ves c. William Walker was fiâ—st sworn and bid to stand up Sir Cr. Levins Pray Sir do you know that Mr. Oates was in England the beginning of last Summer Pray tell your whole knowledge Mr Walker Yes my Lord I will I have known Mr. Titus Oates these seven years and had not seen him above five years but about two years ago I did meet him in Newgate-market and then again in the latter end of the month of March 1678 or the beginning of April I did see Mr. Oates in a disguise in a gray Searge Coat and I think a gray Hat but I did not understand it nor did I know him to be the man and I was very much troubled that I could not recollect my self who he was and I went to bed could not recollect who he was but before I rose in the morning I did draw him within the Scheme of my knowledg that it was Titus Oates to confirm my judgment in that I did go to a Gentlewoman whose name I did not know but I went thither because it was the same place that I had seen him at a year before to enquire what became of Mr. Oates and how he did And when I came to her in the morning early it was the next day after I had seen him in the Disguise I enquired of the Gentlewoman how Mr. Oates did and she clapped her hand upon her Counter being a Trades-woman Oh said she he is an undone man Why so said I said she he is turned to the Church of Rome and he absconds and hides himself I knew not where he is then in plain terms said I I saw him later than you for I saw him Yesterday between nine and ten of the clock it was at the upper end of St. Martins-lane near Leicester House Sir Cr. Levins What time was this Mr. Walker This was in April or March last was a Twelvemonth Lord Chief Just Did you never see him more than then Mr. Walker No I knew his Face so well as I looked back upon him and he looked back upon me but it was with some kind of terrour and he did seem to abscond and hide himself Lord Chief Just When was this Mr. Walker It was sometime from the latter end of March to the middle of April Lord Chief Just Why did you skip the beginning of April Mr. Walker I am not able to remember exactly the time for why I did never think to be called as a Witness about it Lord Chief Just Did you speak to him Mr. Walker No my Lord I did not Lord Chief Just How long before had you spoke to him Mr. Walker A year before but in his Canonical Habit and not before of five years Lord Chief Just North You will not sure catch him upon a day Lord Chief Just But I 'll tell you what it does it contradicts all that your Boys all your Witnesses say Though it does not go home exactly to the 24th of April yet if it be true and we have no reason to believe it otherwise it disproves all their Evidence for they charge him to have been at St. Omers all March April and May. Sir Cr. Levins Swear Sarah Ives Which was done Dr. Oates My Lord we bring Sarah Ives to prove that this same Gentleman went to her to enquire of her about me Lord Chief Just Pray Mrs. what did that Minister say to you and when concerning Mr. Oates Mrs. Ives Mr. Walker came to my Shop and asked me when I saw Mr. Oates said I I have not seen him since he went beyond sea Then said he I have seen him later than you for I was going to Leiâ—ester Fields and at the end of St. Martins-lane I saw him in a Disguise and he looked wishly back
Now this good Dr. that does say he saw him here in the latter end of March or the middle of April whereas he himself says he came over with Hilsley the 24th of April L. C. J. He was Landed here the 17th of April and the Witnesses say it was the latter end of April or beginning of May. Whitebread mr Oates expresly said he stay'd here but 6 dayes when he came over to the Consult L. C. J. Why does not all this stand together Whitebread No my Lord how could this stand together His coming over the 17th and his being here a great part in May whereas he says he was but 6 days L. C. J. Perchance Dr. Oates may be precise enough but look you here these Witnesses do not so exactly to a day or two or 3 or 4 or 5 but to the latter end of April now why might they not see him the latter end of April and the beginning of May and yet stand very well with mr Oates testimony who says he was landed here about the 17th of April and staied here about 6 or 7 days How nice would you have them be in that case which because they are honest they will not be L. C. J. Nor. You make your defences to depend upon an uncertainty of time which no mortal man can ever remember besides pray observe this That Mr. Oates stands a good witness till you impeach him by a fry out of your own Schools and they go to the whole moneths of June and April and May now these all speak in contradiction to them and so mr Oates is still set an upright and good witness Whitebread They say they did see him there every day or every other day L. C. J. But sure I can as well tell who see him but once in such a month and dined with him then as any that saw him never so often but here are five Witnesses upon you in this point Whitebread The one was told by his man the other by his boy L. C. J. The Coach-man and the boy and the maid and mr Smith did see him Mr. Just Pemberton The Divine did see him and went and told the woman that he had seen him pray remember that L. C. J. Nor. Now the Evidence is concluded say what you will for your selves and then we will observe what you object upon our direction to the Jury according to our Consciences Gaven My Lord then I say this for my self we commit our selves to God Almighty We must compare the number tho ours were not sworn yet there were 16 of them boys young men that conversed with him every day and these witnesses speak but of one or two particular days One says he dined with him and another saw him in a disguise but my Lord in these very Witnesses there is an apparent contradiction because out of his own mouth ex ore tuo te judico they are contradicted He says he came over upon Sunday with Hilsley which was the 20th of April as I think and stayed here only a matter of 6 days One of the witnesses says he saw him the first Munday in May What signifie the witnesses though upon Oath that say they him in May How can he come over the 20th of April and stay but 6 days and be seen here in May Before these can be reconciled one of them must be false and then my Lord besides that which I first said there is the number of witnesses they are nothing in comparison with the number of ours And then my Lord 2 dly if we should grant that a lesser number should serve the turn because they are sworn for the King because they swear for the safety of the King whom God preserve whatsoever becomes of me and the other speak not upon their Oaths yet my Lord this does not destroy nor touch at all that evidence that is brought against him about the Rector of Leige Sir John Warner and Sir Thomas Preston And tho it be granted that all the others that spoke about mr Oates being at St. Omers be mistaken and must not be believed yet we have him still by those 6 others who have proved that he hath sworn false and I hope we shall have fair play in the Law to make the best defence we can for our lives and I humbly conceive no body must be convicted of High Treason by the Law but upon the Evidence of two sufficient witnesses Now I leave it to the Conscience Honour of the Court whether he shall be believed and counted a sufficient witness when there are so many that have proved him false in that one point And then besides all this my Lord we have here 16 at least Stafford-shire Witnesses who give you an account of mr Irelands being out of London from the 2 d. of August till 14 September so that in these two things he hath been contradicted without any Answer for he says the 12. of August he was with him when they say he was in Stafford-shire L.C. J. You have forgot the maid that saw him in London the 12 or 13. Gaven No my Lord I have not And this is it I answer to it She is a witness that only says she just saw him but did not speak to him L. C. J. She made a Courtesie to him Gaven We are talking now of seeing Ireland in August and we prove by Sir John Souththcott and all his Family who say they began their journey with him the 5th of August and stayed with him till the 19 th after the particular day that she speaks of you find 7 or 8 of them swear that they saw him all the time And therefore I would feign know whether poor mens lives shall be cast away upon such Evidence as this And then my Lord for the other thing I hope I have made a very good Plea for my self concerning the matter of July my witnesses could be positive as to the last week but for the other weekes tho they could not be positive they rather believed I was there then not but when it is urged why might not they give as good a testimony for the former weeks as for that To this I answer fully that there is a great predominant reason why they should have particular reason to swear why I should be there the last week rather than the other weeks because I was then shut up in the spiritual exercise they had a particular reason to take notice of that Then my Lord I hope you will be pleased to mind this by which I have made my Plea good that is my Lord that mr Oates testimony against me is this mr Ashby came to town about the middle of July and that he stay'd there about a fortnight and that in the time of that fortnight I came to Town and said I would go see Father Ashby and had that discourse be speaks of and so much for that And then my Lord I beseech you still to bear it in
your mind that I have been proved not to be in Town at the time of the great Consult about the Plot and indeed I was not capable of it for I was not then Professed and there could None be of that congregation about the Plot but those that were professed I could not be there in the Congregation by reason of my Age mr Harcourt here and the rest if you will ask them will tell you it they were there but upon the word of a dying man I was not there L. C. J. 'T is not positively said by Mr. Oates that you were Gaven But then my Lord he says my Name was to it which he saw in July now I prove that I was in Stafford-shire the last week of July and seeing I have witnesses to prove that I was there till the 14 th the last week it was after the 14 th that he saw me I hope my Plea is good Then my Lord I ground my Plea upon this I have studied Philosophy◠and other things but I never studied the Law and so am very ignorant of it but this is my Case I am accused by one Witness concerning one Fact and by another concerning another the one committed here at London the other in Staffordshire I desire therefore to know whether the Witness that swears the thing done in Stafford-shire in another County being joyned to the other Witness that swears what was done in London can be esteemed two witnesses according to the Law to convict me of Treason L. C.J. North Yes I l'e tell you if it were a matter of doubt it might be found specially and be argued but it is a matter that hath been already resolved in the Case of Sir Henry Vane at the Kings Bench Barr who was Indicted for levying War against the King and there one Witness proved the levying of War in one County and the other proved the levying of War in another County and so though they were but single witnesses of single Facts yet being both came up to the Indictment they were adjudged sufficient to maintain it So it is in your Case here is one witness for the proving your hand to the Paper which was for the Murther of the King and there is another witness of your discourse to the same purpose the Fact is your joining and conspiring to destroy the King and to levy War against him and both these are proved to the full of the Indictment by these witnesses and though they are to several particular Facts yet they are all Overt acts of the same Treason Gaven My Lord I have a contrary opinion to that in Serjeant Rolls L. C. J. North But this is a known Case and the Law is settled therein L. C. J. I 'le tell you what you mistake in what you say for there are two witnesses Oates and Dugdale who swear to the same Fact which is killing the King altering the Government and bringing in Popery Oates says He saw your hand to the Consult for the Murder of the King for the raising the Army and for the introducing of Popery which is a necessary consequence of change of Government Dugdale says he was with you in the Parlor at my Lord Aston's where the discourse was between him and you and others about killing the King and altering Religion Are not these two witnesses to one and the same Treason Gaven No my Lord I conceive not L. C. J. If I consult a way to kill the King here and then I go into the Country and there I consult of it with another person are not these two Witnesses to the same Treason sure they are Gaven Then my Lord my second Plea is this 〈◊〉 there be two witnesses you will grant me this ground that no man must be convicted but upon the Evidence of two Legal and credible witnesses and upon clear Evidence as the Statute since His Majesties happy Restauration does declare Now two things are required certainly to make a credible Witness and a clear Evidence as the Witness must be credible so it is as agreeable to reason that the Evidence must be plain and clear yea as clear as the light of the Sun at Mid-day Now therefore if I prove that neither the Witness is credible such as the Law requires nor the Evidence clear such as the Law looks upon as such then I ought not to be convicted by this Witness upon this Evidence L. C J. The Jury are Judges of that and therefore there I leave it L. C J. North. You argue mighty subtilly but I 'le give you this answer there must be two lawful Witnesses that is the law a man cannot be Impeached of Treason but by two lawfull Witnesses now if they be not convicted of perjury and their Testimony be not taken away but they may be heard in a Court of Justice they are lawful Witnesses now for the being credible Witnesses that is a matter that is left to the Jury but we must receive them as lawful Witnesses till they be convict of a crime that takes away their Testimony Gavan Therefore because they are left to the Jury I am satisfied and I turn my self to you Gentlemen You are to sit upon my Life and my Death as for my own part I can truly profess I am as innocent as the Child unborn and this Gentleman Mr. Whitebread knows I was not capable of being at the Consult being not of age Now I must leave my self to the Jury and will leave it to their judgments whether these two Witnesses can be esteemed credible Witnesses for to make credible Witnesses there is required honesty of life and truth in their Testimony for no man can be a good Witness that is not an honest man nor that hath carryed himself so that he is not to be believed As to the honesty of Mr. Oates his life you have heard that he was disgusted by the Jesuites esteemed not a person of that diligence or fidelity to be intrusted by them He was turned out of St. Omers Lord Chief Just Does that prove any dishonesty in Mr. Oates Gavan No but I speak to his Credibility Lord Chief Just Speak plain how does it impeach Mr. Oates his Evidence that the Jesuits did not like him Gaven It might be a ground of hatred amnd alice in him against them and then Gentlemen I desire you to consider that other thing That we have proved him to speak false in his Testimony about Sir John Warner and Sir Tho. Preston and all the business of the 12th of August concerning Mr. Irelands being here the 12th of August who by sixteen Witnesses is proved to have been all the while in Staffordshire And though he was not convicted of Perjury before which might have easily been done as I have shewn to the whole world now I appeal to the Honour and Conscience of the Jury whether all these proofs ought not to make this Witness to be deemed an incredible Witness And pray Gentlemen hear me
this and carry this away with you as to the business of Ireland between the eighth and twelfth of August how many do swear that he was in Staffordshire I desire you but to compare that one Woman that only saw him and made a Curtesie to him as she says with those sixteen Witnesses that conversed with him daily Then as for the second Testimony of the St. Omers Witnesses which you see is thwarted by some that do swear in the Kings name to the contrary Still I desire you to compare number with number the others though they do not swear are ready to swear and there are only 3 or 4 against 16 of them and there is an evident contradiction in what they say and that proved out of his own mouth for he says he came over the twentieth of April with Mr. Hilsley and stay'd only six days they say he was here in May and I desire these may be compared for how could it be that he should be here in May if he staid but six days And then to make your Verdict and take their Credit away I would desire you to consider those Witnesses that I have brought for my self not being here but in Wolverhampton for being in Stafford-shire as long as till the last week of July it must fall within the time of his Testimony I have brought Witnesses to prove upon Oath that from the twenty second upward they saw me in Wolverhampton and they do remember the particular instance that I was then at my spiritual exercise and this is that I have to say as to Mr. Oates As for Mr. Dugdale I would desire you to reflect upon the whole story of his coming to discover this Plot and his being an Informer about it The truth is I confess I have known him five or six years whilst he lived at my Lord Astons and I have divers times discoursed with him there in Mr. Ewers Chamber but as I hope to be saved never any thing of Treason in all my life Now 't is well known and there are those that can testifie it that in truth Dugdale run away from my Lord Astons after he had lost three hundred pound of my Lords mony Lord Chief Just If you can say any thing against Mr. Dugdale by Witnesses that you can prove it then you say well but if you will tell a story out of one Lords mouth and another Lords mouth that is never to be indured you shall never take away a mans Testimony by hearsay you must prove it Gaven 'T is well known if I prove Dugdale no credible Witness I play my own game You know I have been a Prisoner 20 weeks and could not seek out Witnesses I asked it as soon as I knew of my Tryal but it was denied me to send for Witness to prove that Dugdale was in Goal for Debt If I had the Recorders Warrant or the Authority of this Bench I could send for them L. C. J. You must not fall upon Persons without Evidence if you have Witnesses to prove any thing whom the Jury will believe call them Gav I do assure your Lordship as I hope to see the face of God I am innocent of what is charged upon me And God bless the King and this Honourable Court. Lord Chief Just Though you do a hundred times bless the King and Court and all you must prove things if you will be believed What say you Master Whitebread Whitebread My Lord I have but one thing to say and 't is but a word your Lordship was pleased to make an Observation and a good one it was a Letter which Mr. Dugdale says was written by me to Mr. Ewers which he says he intercepted he was in the mean time a trusty correspondent for his Friend In that Letter he swears there was expresly contained positive words of entertaining persons to kill the King that only such as were hardy desperate and stout but as your Lordship well observed that it was an improbable thing that a man who had his Wits about him should write such plain expressions about such a matter and upon that improbability I leave it to the Jury Mr. Just Pemberton Have you any thing to say Mr. Fenwick Fenwick I desire my Lord your Lordship and the Jury to consider and observe the nature both of our Witnesses and of them that are brought against us The one speak for the whole time that they saw him every day or every other day they daily conversed with him and eat and drank with him in the same house the others they say only they saw him one particular day another another and one of them sayes he saw him but in a disguise Now my Lord whether it be likely that so many innocent Children brought up in a good virtuous life should come here to forswear themselves to contradict people that we know not what they are and then besides we know that these people are of a poor mean beggarly condition that intend to mend that condition by such a pretence of discovery and hope thereby to advance themselves It is probable such people might be drawn in Then also we shall prove that Sir John Warner did not come over with him nor Mr. Williams nor Sir Thomas Preston Then all his Witness as to them is false and he does not say he went back with these people and this for the Witnesses Now suppose the Witnesses were all equal what does he prove against us Three Or what reason doth he give of his Evidence He says he saw such and such Letters from Mr. Whitebread Now is it possible that a man that had no credit at all with us that we should be such fools to trust him with such Letters as those then your Lordships must hang us twice once for Fools and then for Knaves Or is it possible that we should be such egregious Fools that we should trust a man that was never esteemed of was expelled the Colledge And for all his talk of Commissions and Letters there is not one of those found let him shew any one Commission any money paid or any Order brought in or any Arms that were found there are three quarters of a year now passed since the first discovery certainly all this time could produce something Thousands of Letters have been taken from us some of those Letters would have discovered this thing certainly therefore we have better Evidence than he hath supposing them to be equal as to Credibility in their Original Is it credible we should be so great Rogues to contrive the Kings Death though he speaks of the Writing being carried from Chamber to Chamber concerning this matter he can never produce one Paper signed by any one mans hand nor can he produce any thing to attest his Testimony I leave this to your Lordships judgment whether this Evidence be good there is nothing appears in so much time of any effect that is produced Where were the Armies Where were the monies paid