Gentry a learned Clergy and an understanding worthy People but yet we cannot think of England as we ought without reflecting on the condition thereof They are under the same Prince and the influence of the same Favâ—…urites and Councils When they are hardly dealt with can we that are Richer expect better usage For 't is certain that in all absolute Governments the poorest Countries are always most favourably dealt with When the ancient Nobility there cannot enjoy their Royalties their Shrievaldoms and their Stewardies which they and their Ancestors have possessed for several hundreds of years but that now they are enjoin'd by the Lords of the Council to make deputations of their Authorities to such as are their known Enemies can we expect to enjoy our Magna Charta long under the same persons and Administration of Affairs If the Council-Table there can imprison any Nobleman or Gentleman for several years without bringing him to Trial or giving the beast Reason for what they do can we expect the same Men will preserve the Liberty of the Subject here My Lords I will confess that I am not very well vers'd in the particular Laws of Scotland but this I do know that all the Northern Countries have by their Laws an undoubted and inviolable Right to their Liberties and Properties yet Scotland hath out-done all the Eastern and Southern Countries in having their Lives Liberties and Estates subjected to the Arbitrary Will and Pleasure of those that govern They have lately plundered and harased the richest and wealthiest Countries of that Kingdom and brought down the barbarous Highlanders to devour them and all this almost without a colourable pretence to do it Nor can there be found a Reason of State for what they have done but that those wicked Ministers designed to procure a Rebellion at any rate which as they managed was only prevented by the miraculous hand of God or otherwise all the Papists in England would have been armed and the fairest opportunity given in the just time for the execution of that wicked and bloody design the Papists had and it is not possible for any man that duly considers it to think other but that those Ministers that acted that were as guilty of the Plot as any of the Lords that are now in question for it My Lords I am forced to speak this the plainer because till the pressure be fully and clearly taken off from Scotland 't is not possible for me or any thinking man to believe that good is meant us here We must still be upon our guard apprehending that the Principle is not changed at Court that those men that are still in place and Authority have that influence upon the mind of our excellent Prince that he is not nor cannot be that to us that his own Nature and Goodness would incline him to I know your Lordships can order nothing in this but there are those that hear me can put a perfect cure to it until that be done the Scottish Weed is like death in the pot Mors in Olla But there is somthing too now I consider that most immediately concerns us their Act of Twenty two thousand men to be ready to invade us upon all occasions This I hear that the Lords of the Council there have treated as they do all other Laws and expounded it into a standing Army of Six Thousand Men. I am sure we have Reason and Right to beseech the King that that Act may be better considered in the next Parliament there I shall say no more for Scotland at this time I am afraid your Lordships will think I have said too much having no concern there but if a French NobleMan should come to dwell in my House and Family I should think it concerned me to ask what he did in France for if he were there a Felon a Rogue a Plunderer I should desire him to live elsewhere and I hope your Lordships will do the same thing for the Nation if you find Cause My Lords Give me leave to speak two or three words concerning our other Sister Ireland Thither I hear is sent Douglas's Regiment to secure us against the French Besides I am credibly informed that the Papists have their Arms restor'd and the Protestants are not many of them yet recovered from being the suspected Party The Sea-Towns as well as the In-land are full of Papists That Kingdom cannot long continue in the English hands if some better care be not taken of it This is in your Power and there is nothing there but is under your Laws Therefore I beg that this Kingdom at least may be taken into consideration together with the State of England for I am sure there can be no safety here if these Doors are not shut up and made sure Some few daies after this Speech the King was pleased to make a great Alteration in his Council and to appoint the Right Honourable Anthony Earl of Shaftesbury President thereof About the 18th of April 1679. His Majesty was pleased to declare the Dissolution of the Late Privy Council and for Constituting a New one The Lords of the Council not to exceed Thirty besides the Princes of the Blood which His Majesty may at any time call to the Board being at Court and the President and Secretary of Scotland which are uncertain The Names of that most Honourable Council were His Highness Prince Rupert William Lord A. B. of Canterbury Heneage Lord Finch L. Chancellor Anthony Earl of Shaftesbury Lord President of the Council Arthur Earl of Anglesey Lord Privy Seal Christopher Duke of Albermarle James Duke of Monmouth Master of the Horse Henry Duke of Newcastle John Duke of Lauderdale Principal Secretary of Scotland James Duke of Ormond L. Steward of the Houshold Charles Lord Marquess of Winchester Henry Earl of Arlington L. Chamberlain of the Houshold James Earl of Salisbury John Earl of Bridgwater Robert Earl of Sunderland one of His Majesties Principal Secretaries of State Arthur Earl of Essex first L. Commissioner of the Treasury James Earl of Bath Groom of the Stable Thomas Lord Viscount Falconberg George Lord Viscount Hallifax John Lord Bishop of London Daniel Lord Roberts Henry Lord Hollis William Lord Russel William Lord Cavendish Henry Coventry Esq one of His Majesties Principal Secretaries of State Sir Francis North Knight L. Chief Justice of the Common Pleas. Sir Henry Capell Knight of the Bath first Commissioner of the Admiralty Sir John Ernby Knight Chancellor of the Exchequer Sir Thomas Chicheley Knight Master of the Ordnance Sir William Temple Baronet Edward Seymour Esquire Henry Powle Esquire This great Change put men upon various Discourses and Apprehensions suitable to their respective Dispositions and Inclinations but the most sober both of the Parliament and others hoped now to see the Popish Plot wholly Eradicated especially considering the daily fresh Discoveries that were brought before the Council and Parliament the last of which was of no long continuance for about June 1679.
Shaftesbury answered to this Effect My Lords I have presumed to present two Petitions to this Honourable House the first your Lordship mentions I do again here personally renew humbly desiring that I may be admitted to make that Submission and Acknowledgement your Lordships were pleased to Order And that after a Twelve-months close Imprisonment to a man of my Age and Infirmities your Lordships would pardon the folly or unadvisedness of any of my words or actions And as to my second Petition I most humbly thank your Lordships for acquainting me with the Resolution and Declaration in that point and though Liberty be in it self very desirable and as my Physician a very Learned man thought absolutely necessary to the preservation of my Life Yet I do profess to your Lordships upon my Honour that I would have perisht rather than have brought my Habeas Corpus had I then apprehended or been informed that it had been a breach of the Priviledge of this Honourable House It is my Duty it is my Interest to support your Priviledges I shall never oppose them My Lords I do fully acquiesce in the Resolution and Declaration of this honourable House I go not about to justifie my self but cast my self at your Lordships Feet acknowledg my Errour and humbly beg your pardon not only for having brought my Habeas Corpus but for all other my VVords and Actions that vvere in pursuance thereof and proceeding from the same Errour and Mistake One Blany was then called into the House who had delivered a paper to the Lord Treasurer Danby pretending to give a relation of some words spoken by the E. of Shaftesbury in the Court of Kings-Bench at the time when he moved for his Habeas Corpus but though this whole Transaction were no longer since than the last Trinity Term yet the said Mr. Blany could not affirm that what was written in the said paper was in part or whole really spoken by the Earl of Shaftesbury so that the Lord Treasurer being able to make nothing of Mr. Blany's paper which was a hard case the House of Lords proceeded to a Resolution in what form the Earl of Shaftesbury should make his submission and acknowledgment which being drawn up in words importing much the same with what the Earl had before declared which being read to him by the Lord Chancellor the Earl of Shaftesbury repeated the same at the Bar of the House and then his Lordship withdrew The House then ordered that the Lords with white staves should wait upon His Majesty to give His Majesty Account that the House had received satisfaction from the Earl of Shaftesbury in the matter of the Habeas Corpus and the other contempt for which he stood committed and are humble Suitors to his Majesty that he would be pleased to discharge him from his Imprisonment And that their Lordships do acquaint the House to morrow what they have done in this matter Die Martis 26 Feb. 1677. The Lord Treasurer reported to the House That the Lords with white slaves had waited on his Majesty according to the Order of this House To which His Majesty was pleased to give this answer That he will give Order for the Earl of Shaftesburys discharge Thus was this great heat whereby some of this worthy Peers Enemies thought then to blast his Loyalty and Integrity and endeavoured to foment the disgusts of the House against him at last extinguished and the Earl a little after saw this Parliament first prorogued and soon after dissolved Now was that Diabolical Plot of the Jesuits and Papists discovered by the great care and fidelity of Dr. Titus Oats which convinced both the King Lords and Commons and all the Nation in General of a damnable treasonable popish design to murther our Protestant King with the chiefest of the Nobility and Gentry and to reduce a Protestant Church to Romish Idolatry and the State to a Catholick slavery The seventh of March 1678. A Parliament met at Westminster and chose the Honourable Edward Seymour Esq their Speaker who had been Speaker of the last long Parliament This Parliament did like noble English Patriots endeavour to give check to the bloody popish Designs on foot and passed many excellent Votes for that purpose many Members acquitting themselves in their Speeches like Men of high sense of the Miserie 's the Nation was like to be involved in This House carried up the Impeachment to the House of Lords against William Earl of Powis William Viscount Stafford Henry Lord Arundel of Wandour William Lord Peters and John Lord Bellasis for High Treason and other high crimes and misdemeanours But this having been at large published to the World in divers other prints with divers Instances how this Noble Peer was personally struck at in that hellish Design I shall refer the Reader for more full satisfaction to the several Narratives and Discoveries of the popish Plot printed by Authority And shall now come to give you an Account of a Speech said to be delivered by this Honourable person in the House of Lords on the 25th of the Instant March Anno 1679. You are appointing of the consideration of the State of England to be taken up in a Committee of the whole House some day the next vveek I do not know how well what I have to say may be received for I never study either to make my Court vvell or to be popular I always speak what I am commanded by the dictates of the Spirit vvithin me There are some other considerations that concern England so nearly that vvithout them you vvill come far short of Safety and Quiet at home VVe have a little Sister and she hath no Breasts vvhat shall vve do for our Sister in the day vvhen she shall be spoken for If she be a VVall vve vvill build on her a Palace of Silver if she be a Door vve vvill inclose her vvith Boards of Cedar VVe have several little Sisters vvithout Breasts the French Protestant Churches the tvvo Kingdoms of Ireland and Scotland the foreign Protestants are a VVall the only VVall and Defence to England upon it you may build Pallaces of Silver glorious Pallaces The protection of the Protestants abroad is the greatest povver and security the Crovvn of England can attain to and vvhich can only help us to give check to the grovving Greatness of France Scotland and Ireland are two doors either to let in good or mischief upon us they are much weakned by the Artifice of our cunning Enemies and we ought to enclose them with Boards of Cedar Popery and Slavery like two Sisters goe hand in hand somtimes the one goes first somtimes the other in a doors but the other is always following close at hand In England Popery was to have brought in Slavery in Scotland Slavery went before and Popery was to follow I do not think your Lordships or the Parliament have Jurisdiction there It is a Noble and Ancient Kingdom they have an Illustrious Nobility a Gallant
Siâ—… John Duncomb In the Afternoon of the same day the Earl of Shaftesbury was visited by Prince Rupert with divers other great Lords at Exeter House where they gave his Lordship Thanks for his Faithful and Honourable Discharge of that great Employment Thus this mighty Minister who had to the universal satisfaction of all good Men been raised to that degree of Interest in his Masters favour without a murmur laid all his Honours at his Masters Feet and was observed not to abate of the chearfulness of his Temper upon the loss of his honorary Employment I shall conclude this part with a touch of this Earl's Character which saith His choice Sagacity Strait solv'd the Knot that subtle Lawyers tied And through all Foggs discern'd th' oppressed side Banish'd delays so this noble Peer Became a Star of Honor in our Sphere A needful Atlas of our State c. The 16th of Feb. 1676. The Honourable Earl of Shaftesbury was sent a Prisoner to the Tower by Order of the House of Lords There were at the same time committed the E. of Salisbury and the L. Wharton The Form of the Warrant for their Commitment was as followeth Ordered by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament Assembled That the Constable of His Majesties Tower of London His Deputy or Deputies shall receive the Bodies of James Earl of Salisbury Anthony Earl of Shaftesbury and Philip Lord Wharton Members of this House and keep them in safe Custody within the said Tower during His Majesties pleasure and the pleasure of this House for their High Contempts Committed against this House And this shall be sufficient Warrant on that behalf To the Constable of the Tower J. Browne Cler. Par. The 27th and 29th of Jan. 1677. The E. of Shaftesbury was brought to the King's-Bench-Bar upon the Return of an Alias Habeas Corpus directed to the Constable of the Tower where the Council for the Earl prayed that the Return might be filed and the Friday following appointed for Debating the sufficiency of the Return and my Lord was remanded until that day On Friday the Earl was brought into Court again and his Council argued the Insufficiency of the Return After Mr. Williams Mr. Wallop Mr. Smith had shewed divers weighty Reasons in behalf of the Earl that that Court might relieve him they were opposed by the Solicitor General and the Attorney General who brought divers Instances why that Court could not discharge a person Committed by Parliament whereupon the Earl of Shaftesbury is said to have spoke to this purpose My Lords I did not intend to have spoken one word in this business but something hath been objected and laid to my Charge by the King's Council Mr. Attorney and Mr. Solicitor that enforceth me to say something for your better satisfaction They have told you that my Council in their Arguments said That this Court was greater than the House of Peers which I dare to Appeal to your Lordships and the whole Court that it was never spoken by them I am sure it was not by any direction of mine What is done by my Council and by me is that this is the most proper Court to resort unto where the Liberty of the Subject is concerned The Lord's House is the Supream House of Judicature in the Kingdom but yet there is a Jurisdiction that the Lord's House does not meddle with The King's Council hath mentioned as a wonder that a Member of the Lord's House should come hither to diminish the Jurisdiction of the Lords I acknowledge them to be Superiour to this or any other Court to whom all Appeals and Writs of Errour are brought and yet there are Jurisdictions that they do not Challenge and which are not natural to them or proper for them They claim not to meddle in Original Causes and so I might mention in other things and I do not think it a kindness to any Power or Body of Men to give them some Power that is not natural or proper to their Constitutions I do not think it a kindness to the Lords to make them Absolute and above the Law for so I humbly conceive this must do if it be adjudged that they by a General Warrant or without any particular Cause Assigned do Commit me or any other man to a perpetual and indefinite Imprisonment And my Lords I am not so inconsiderable a person but what you do in my Case must be Law for every man in England Mr. Attorney is pleased to say I am a Member of the Lord's House and to lay weight on the word Member It is true I am one of them and no man hath a greater Reverence or Esteem for the Lords than my self but my Lords I hope my being a Peer or a Member of either House shall not lose my Priviledge of being an English man or make me to have less Title to Magna Charta or the other Laws of English Liberty My Opinion is not with one of my Council who argued very learnedly that the Passing an Act by the King 's Royal Assent can make a Session because the usual promise was not in it It was without any Instruction of mine to mention that point The King's Council tells your Lordships of the Laws and Customs of Parliament and if this were so I should submit but this Case of mine is primae Impressionis and is a new way such as neither Mr. Attorney nor Mr. Solicitor can shew any President of and I have no other Remedy or place to Apply to than the way I take Mr. Attorney confesseth that the King's pleasure may Release me without the Lords If so this Court is Coram Rege this Court is the proper place to determine the King's pleasure This Court will and ought to Judge of an Act of Parliament void if it be against Magna Charta much more may Judge an Order of the House that is put in Execution to deprive any Subject of his Liberty And if this Order or Commitment be a Judgment as the King's Council affirms then it is out of the Lords hands and properly before your Lordships as much as the Acts which were lately Passed which I presume you will not refuse to Judge of notwithstanding that the King's Atorney General saith this Parliament is still in being I take it something ill that Mr. Attorney tells me I might have Applied elsewhere My Lord I have not omitted what became my Duty toward the King for besides the Oath of Allegiance I took as a Peer or an English man there is something in my Breast that will never suffer me to depart from the Duty and Respect that I owe him but I am here before him he is alwaies supposed to be here present and he alloweth his Subjects the Law My Lord They speak much of the Custom of Parliament but I do affirm there is no Custom of Parliament that ever their Members were put out of their own Power and the Inconveniencies of it will be endless Mr.
my Lord Shaftesbury's Closet to which Mr. Gwin replied that there was nothing Mr. Secretary Jenkins witnessed that that was the Paper he had of Mr. Blithwayt Some things I am forced for brevity to omit My Lord Chief Justice said Now it appears this was the Paper taken in my Lord Shaftesbury's Closet And the Paper was Read which contained the words of that commonly called The Form of an Association When it had been Read Sir Fâ—…n Withins said This Paper was very plausibly penn'd in the 〈◊〉 and runs a great way so but in the last clause but one there they come to perfect Levying of War for they do positively say They will obey such Officers as either the Parliament or the major part of them or after the Parliament is Dissolved the major part of them that shall subscribe this Paper shall appoint The Foreman of the Jury enquired what Date that Paper was of and whether there were any hand to it to which Sir Francis answered that it was after the Bill for Exclusion of the Duke of York for it says that way failing they would do it by force as to the having a name to it Sir Francis said there was none at all The rest of the Evidence were John Booth John Macknamara Edward Turbervill Dennis Macknamara John Smith Edward Joye Bryan Haynes Bernard Dennis Booth deposeth That in January last he was introduced into my Lord Shaftesbury's acquaintance by Captain Henry Wilkinson in order to get a Commission and Plantation in Carolina That the first time he went to my Lord there was my L. Craven and Sir Peter Colliton who are of the Proprietors of that Collony that after this acquaintance he had been there between Christmas and March four or five times and that he found great difficulty in his Accession to his Lordship who was cautious of what company were admitted to him that the said Earl used to inveigh sharply against the Times and look upon himself as not so valued nor respected nor in those Places and Dignities as he expected seemed discontented Particularly that the Earl of Shaftesbury should say that the Parliament would never grant the King Money nor satisfie him in those things that he desired unless he first gave the People satisfaction in those things that they insisted on before and particularly the Bill of Excluding the Duke of York from the Crown Another was the Abolishing the Statute of the 35th of Elizabeth The third was giving his Royal Assent for the passing a New Bill whereby all the Dissenting Protestants should be freed from those Penalties and Ecclesiastical Punishments that they are subject to by the present Establish'd Law That he had Established fifty Gentlemen persons of Quality that he believed would have men along with them that they were to come to Oxford at such a time that if there were any Violence offered to any of the Members by the King's Guards or the Retinue of the Court that then these men with others that other Lords had appointed should repel his force by greater force and should purge the Guards of all the Papists and Tories that Captain Wilkinson was Intrusted with the Command of these men and that these men should be ready to Assist himself and those of his Confederacy to purge from the King those Evil Councillors that were about him That particularly there were named the Earl of Worcester Lord Clarendon Lord Hallifax Lord Feversham Lord Hide which persons were lookt upon to be dangerous and gave the King Evil Advice That those Lords should by Violence be taken from the King and the King brought to London where those things should be Establisht which they designed for their Safety in those two Respects for the preserving the Protestant Religion and likewise for the defending and keeping us safe from Arbitrary Power and Government And likewise that the said Booth had provided Arms and a good Stone-Horse for himself and Arms for his Man before the Parliament Sate at Oxford That the Thursday before the Parliament was Dissolved Captain Wilkinson told him he expected that very week to be called up to Oxford with those men that were Listed with him but Saturday bringing News of the Dissolution of the Parliament it had no further Effects This was the most material of what Booth said for being straitned in Room I am forced to render it as short as I can Turbervil declared That about the beginning of February waiting on my Lord Shaftesbury to have his advice how he might come by some Monies and to gain his Lordships Letter in his behalf to the President of the Council the Earl should say there was little good to be expected from the King as long as his Guards were about him that his Lordship should say the Rabble about Wapping and Aldersgate were of that side that the rich men of the City would vote for Elections but it could hardly be expected they should stand by them in case of a disturbance for they valued their Riches more than their Cause and that at Oxford he had heard the Earl say he wondred the People of England should stickle so about Religion if he were to chuse a Religion he would have one should comply with what was apt to carry on their Cause Smith said that one time being sent for by my Lord Shaftesbury by one Captain Manly his Lordship should tell him that Mr. Hetherington had told him he was afraid the Irish Witnesses would go over to the Court Party and retract what they had said formerly that he advised him to persuade them not to go near that Rogue Fitz-Girald that great Villain that is pampered up and maintain'd by the King and the Court party to stifle the Plot in Ireland and that the Earl had further said That if the King were not as well satisfied with the coming in of Popery as ever the Duke of York was do you think the Duke of York would be so much concerned for the bringing in of Popery as he is That a little before my Lord went to Oxford he should tell the said Smith there were great preparations made and a great many gathered together upon the Rode be tween London and Oxford and Smith asking his Lordship what it might mean my Lord should answer that it was only to terrifie the Parliament to comply with the Kings desire which he was sure the Parliament would never do That they were now more resolute than ever That they clearly saw the Kings aim was to bring in Popery That they had the Nation for them and might lawfully oppose him and he would meet with very strong opposition for that all that came out of the Country should be well Hors'd and armed and so they should all be That the City had resolved to bear the charge of their Members and send so many men to wait on them and that he would be hang'd before he would ever bring in Popery or any thing of that nature Bryan Hains deposed that among
after my Lords Commitment and when he was challenged and told he was to be a Witness against him whether he did not then say as he was alive he knew no such thing Mr. Attor Gen. told my Lord this was not to be allowed this was private Instruction which the Juâ—… was not to take The Foreman replied no it was no private Instruction but asked Turbervill whether he had not spoke such words to Mr. Herbert Then the L. C. J. asked whether they had any Information touching that to Mr. Herbert the Foreman said he had a long time ago that the person told him so set down the day and was very angry with Turbervill for it The L. C. J. told them that discourses taken up at random at Coffee-houses were not fit to be brought in when Treason was in question against the King's Life that it was not ground to cavil at persons because they heard such discourse at a Coffee-house The Foreman said he never was in a Coffee-house with Mr. Herbert in his life but had the discourse of him some months ago The L. C. J. asked whether they thought that groundenough against the Witness Mr. Papillion replied they only asked the question whether he had not contradicted or said the contrary to any body Turbervill said he did not remember he had said any thing to Mr. Herbert in his life and that at that time he was discarded by all persons of my Lord's Interest and if he would then have given under his hand that he knew nothing against him he believed he might have been in their favour as before He was asked whether he was not one of them that petitioned the Common Council and declared that he was tempted to witness against his Conscience Turbervill said he did but that he believed he never read the Petition but was drawn to it by the order of Mr. Colledge by a Scriviner about Guild-Hall That his design in it was that the City should take care of him that he was not very poor nor over full of money some Members of the House of Commons had told them that the City should advance money for the support of the Witnesses and that they were to Petition that they would answer the design of the Parliament being asked what Members they were he said it was a Member of the House of Commons that told him so he would assure them he said what he spoke was voluntarily that he knew nothing more than what he had here declared he supposed his Deposition was given in after the Commitment of my L. Shaftesbu Smith being asked whether he had not used to go by the name of Barry said he had gone by several names as all Popish Priests do he said he had given in his Information to Secretary Jenkins he thought a little after my L. was committed but had given notice long before of what he intended to do to other persons But the Questions put to him being not very material and his Answers of little moment for want of room must be waved and we come to Bryan Haines who in answer to divers Questions put to him by the Jury said That he gave in his Information against my L. Shaftesbury the day that he the said Bryan was taken by a Messenger that he had before given in another account to Sir G. Treby of a design against the L. Shaftesbury about March last which was That Fitz-Girald had told him that he had given it under his Hand to the King that the E. of Shaftesbury did resolve to set the Crown on his own Head or turn the Kingdom to a Common-wealth that he had discourse with my Ld. at several times sometimes at his own House somtimes in Ironmonger-Lane that there Hains had proposed a Rebellion in Ireland that the Earl said that was not the best way they had other means to take and so the Discourse was waved being asked whether ever he had bin a Witness for or against the Lady Windham he said she arested him because he had said he lay with her John Macknamara answered to several questions put to him that he had discourse with the Lord Shaftesbury in March and April that he could not tell exactly when he gave in his Information but that it was to Secretary Jenkins that Ivey was by when they had the discourse That he signed the Petition to the Common Council but did not see it till 't was brought him to sign that he did not read it nor knew the Contents of it Then Mr. Papillion told the Court that in that Petition they say they were tempted to swear against their Consciences and that some of the Witnesses had made Shipwrack of their Consciences but if we should ask them who tempted them and who those Witnesses were that made shipwrack of their Consciences it would signifie nothing for since they do not know what was in the Petition it is in vain to ask them any more J. Macknamara said he heard Mr. Colledg that was executed at Oxford was concerned in promoting the Petition by my L. Shaftsburys Advice The Answer of Dennis Macknamara to divers questions put by the Jury was to this purpose That he was introduced to my Lord by his Brother in March or April last he knows not which that none but Ivey was by that he gave in his Information to the Secretary of State long before the Earl was committed Then Mr. Papillion proposed to the Court whether they might not ask if he had a Pardon for it would be satisfaction to them Ld. Ch. Just. North answered it might be proper when the Prisoner made Exceptions to the Witnesses but that there were no Exceptions to the Witnesses Mr. Papillion said they made no exceptions but they must satisfie their Consciences and that was very much as they found the credibility of the Witnesses My L. Ch. J. North asked what he should have a Pardon for Mr. Papillion answered for Crimes My L. C. J. North said They must not ask him to accuse himself Mr. Papillion said if he had a pardon he was in Statu quo suppose my Ld. some of them have been guilty of Poisoning some of Felony some of Robbing on the High way they did but ask them if they were pardoned L. C. J. North answered a Man must not be impeached but where he may answer for it Mr. Papillion said My Lord if you do not give leave we must for bear then L. C. J. N. said he did not think it proper Edward Ivey gave in answer to several questions demanded of him That the discourse he had with my Lord was some time after the sitting of the Parliament at Oxford about the latter end of March or beginning of April that he could not be positive when he made his Information but it was given to the Secretary of State that he thinks the two Macknamara's were by no body else he is sure one of them was That he gave his Information as soon as he