of the Tower of London bring forth thy Prisoner William Viscount Stafford upon pain and peril shall fall thereon God save the King Whereupon the Lieutenant of the Tower brought the Prisoner to the Bar. Usher of the Black Rod. My Lord Stafford must kneel which he did Lord high Steward Rise my Lord. Then he Arose and stood at the Bar and the Lord High Steward spake to him as followeth My Lord Viscount Stafford THE Commons of England Assembled in Parliament have Impeach'd your Lordship of High Treason and you are brought this Day to the Bar to be Tryed upon that Impeachment You are not Try'd upon the Indictment of Treason found by the Grand Jury tho there be that too in the Case But you are Prosecuted and Pursued by the Loud and Dreadsul Complaints of the Commons and are to be Try'd upon the Presentment which hath been made by the Grand Inquest of the whole Nation In this so Great and Weighty Cause you are to be Judg'd by the whole Body of the House of Peers The Highest and the Noblest Court in This or perhaps in any other part of the Christian World Here you may be sure no False Weights or Measures ever will or can be found Here the Ballance will be exactly kept and all the Grains of Allowance which your Case will bear will certainly be put into the Scales But as it is impossible for my Lords to Condemn the Innocent so 't is equally Impossible that They should clear the Guilty If therefore you have been Agitated by a Restless Zeal to Promote that which you call the Catholick Cause If this Zeal have Engaged you in such Deep and Black Designs as you are Charged with and this Charge shall be fully Prov'd Then you must Expect to Reap what you have Sown for every Work must and ought to Receive the Wages that are due to it Hear therefore with Patience what shall be said against you for you shall have full Time and Scope to Answer it Aud when you come to make your Defence you shall have a very fair and equal Hearing In the mean time the best Entrance upon this Service will be to begin with Reading of the Charge Lord High Steward My Lord if your Lordship find your self infirm and unable to stand your Lordship may have a Chair to ease your self whilst the Charge is Reading and a Chair was brought accordingly and his Lordship sate thereon Clerk of the Parliament Read the Charge Articles of Impeachment of High Treason and other high Crimes and Offences against William Earl of Powis William Viscount Stafford and Henry Lord Arundel of Wardour William Lord Petre and John Lord Bellasis now Prisoners in the Tower of London 1. THat for many years now last past there hath been contrived and carried on by Papists a Trayterous and execrable Conspiracy and Plot within this Kingdom of England and other places to Alter Change and Subvert the Ancient Government and Laws of this Kingdom and Nation and to Suppress the True Religion therein Established and to Extirpate and Destroy the Professors thereof which said Plot and Conspiracy was contrived and carried on in divers Places and by several ways and means and by a great number of Persons of several Qualities and Degrees who Acted therein and intended thereby to Execute and Accomplish the aforesaid Wicked and Traiterous Designs and Purposes That the said William Earl of Powis William Viscount Stafford Henry Lord Arundel of Wardour William Lord Petre and John Lord Bellasis together with Philip Howard commonly called Cardinal of Norfolk Thomas White alias Whitebread commonly called Provincial of the Jesuits in England Richard Strange lately called Provincial of the Jesuits in England Vincent commonly called Provincial of the Dominicans in England James Corker commonly called President of the Benedictines Sir John Warner alias Clare Baronet William Harcourt John Kenis Nicholas Blundel Poole Edward Mico Thomas Bedingfield alias Benefield Basil Langworth Charles Peters Richard Peters John Conyers Sir George Wakeman Thomas Fenwick Dominick Kelly Fitzgerald Evers Sir Thomas Preston William Lovel Jesuits Lord Baltamore John Carrel John Townely Richard Langhorn William Fogarty Thomas Penny Matthew Medbourn Edward Coleman William Ireland John Grove Thomas Pickering John Smith and divers other Jesuits Priests Fryers and other Persons as false Traytors to his Majesty and this Kingdom within the time aforesaid have Traiterously Consulted Contrived and Acted to and for the accomplishing of the said wicked pernitious and Traiterous Designs and for that end did most wickedly and Traiterously agree Conspire and resolve to Imprison Depose and Murder his Sacred Majesty and to deprive him of his Royal State Crown and Dignity and by malicious and advised speaking writing and otherwise declared such their Purposes and Intentions And also to subject this Kingdom and Nation to the Pope and to his Tyrannical Government And to seize and share amongst themselves the Estates and Inheritances of his Majesties Protestant Subjects And to Erect and Restore Abbeys Monasteries and other Convents and Societies which have been long since by the Laws of this Kingdom suppressed for their Superstition and Idolatry and to deliver up and restore to them the Lands and Possessions now vested in his Majesty and his Subjects by the Laws and Statutes of this Realm And also to Found and Erect new Monasteries and Convents and to remove and deprive all Protestant Bishops and other Ecclesiastical persons from their Offices Benefices and Preferments And by this means to destroy his Majesties Person extirpate the Protestant Religion overthrow the Rights Liberties and Properties of all his Majesties good Subjects Subvert the lawful Government of this Kingdom and subject the same to the Tyranny of the See of Rome 3. That the said Conspirators and their Complices and Confederates Traiterously had and held several Meetings Assemblies and Consultations wherein it was Contrived and Designed among them what means should be used and what Persons and Instruments should be Employed to Murder his Majesty And did then and there resolve to effect it by Poisoning Shooting Stabbing or some such like ways and means and offered Rewards and Promises of advantage to several persons to execute the same and hired and imployed several wicked persons to go to Windsor and other places where his Majesty did reside to murder and destroy his Majesty which said persons or some of them accepted such Rewards and undertook the perpetrating thereof and did actually go to the said Places for that end and purpose 4. That the said Conspirators the better to compass their Trayterous Designs have Consulted to Raise and have procured and raised Men Money Horses Arms and Ammunition and also have made Application to and Treated and Corresponded with the Pope his Cardinals Nuncioes and Agents and with other Forreign Ministers and Persons to raise and obtain Supplies of Men Money Arms and Ammunition therewith to make levy and raise War Rebellion and Tumults within this Kingdom and to Invade the same with
should disclose it and particularly that time that I went away from my Lord Astons which was on a Monday morning Mr. Evers gave it me about the 18. or 19. of November 1678. And I did then promise by all the promises I could make and upon the Sacrament in his Chamber that I would not disclose it but having others to advise me in it such as could better do it that told me such Oaths were better broken than kept and thereupon I came to discover the thing which I have done to the best of my knowledge I am very loath to charge my memory in particular about times or how many were in company but those that I am sure of but there hath been in company at the Consultation several times Mr. Heveningham Sir James Symons Mr. Vavasor Mr. Petre Mr. Howard and my Lord Aston himself when there hath been speech about the Design for the introducing of Religion and for taking order about money to buy Arms and particularly when my Lord Stafford was by about the Death of the King and that was about September 1678. Mr. Treby Mr. Dugdale you speak of leavying Arms and of the Oath of Secrecy that was given you were there not other Spiritual Weapons used Was there not an Indulgence or such a thing Mr. Dugdale There was an Indulgence about 78. or thereabouts which came through Irelands hands transmitted from beyond Sea and so to Mr Evers and Mr. Gavan was put on to publish it which he did one time at Boscobel And it was likewise at all private Chappels that whosoever was active for the introducing the Romish Religion or killing the King should have a free Pardon of all his sins Mr. Foley Pray declare what Arguments have been used by your Priests to induce you to this Design Lord High Steward Raise your voice that we may hear what you ask Mr. Foley We would know what Arguments have been used to perswade to this design Mr. Dugdale They have told me in their Meetings the King was an Excommunicated Heretick and he was out of the Pale of the Church therefore it was lawful to kill him and it was no more than the killing of a dog Sir John Trevor My Lords I desire to ask him one Question further what he hath heard about a Massacre that was intended L. H. Stew. Have you heard of any Massacre that was to be Mr. Dugdale I have heard that about the time the King should be killed several should be provided with Arms and such Instruments and rise all of a sudden at an hours warning and to come in upon the Protestants and cut their Throats that was one proposal and if any did escape there should be an Army to cut them off in their flight Mr. Treby My Lords I desire to ask him one Question further whether he ever knew or heard of Mr. Oates and Bedloe till the Plot was detected Mr. Dugdale I have heard of them from Priests as messengers intrusted by them but no otherwise L. H. Steward When did you hear that Mr. Dugdale I have formerly declared it Mr. Treby Ay when L. H. Steward Before the discovery or after Mr. Dugdale Before the discovery Mr. Treby My Lords the reason of the Question and the use we make of it is this We charge the Papists with the Conspiracy of a Plot and they charge our Witnesses with a Conspiracy to accuse Now it appears that Mr. Dugdale had not any knowledge of the other Witnesses and only had heard of them as persons concern'd so it could not possibly be a joint contrivance amongst them Sir John Trevor My Lords I desire to ask this Question Whether Mr. Dugdale hath seen any Letters from Whitebread to Evers and what instructions were in those Letters to Evers about the persons to be concerned and what kind of Creatures he was to imploy in this great Design of theirs Mr. Dugdale I saw a Letter from Whitebread to give Mr Evers a caution who he did employ or trust in the Design for he told him there had been good care taken therein hitherto and it were no matter whether they were Gentlemen of Quality or not so they were stout and trusty or to that purpose L. H. Steward What should they be trusty for Mr. Dugdale For the killing the King L. H. Steward Was that said plainly in the Letter Mr. Dugdale To the best of my remembrance in those very words L. H. Steward Was there no Cypher or Character Mr. Dugdale There was no Cypher or Character that I know of nothing but two letters for his Name Mr. Treby My Lords I desire Mr. Dugdale may give an account of those Papers he speaks of What became of them and tell us the reason why they were not produced Mr Dugdale My Lords when I was by the instruction of Mr. Evers to take my flight I conveyed all my Papers that either belonged to him or my self for the carrying on of the Plot and carryed them to an House not far remote from my Lord Aston's and by the help of two Maids Mr. Treby Name them Mr. Dugdale Elizabeth Eld and Anne Eld. And they two did prepare a Fire in their Chamber for that purpose and they assisted me to burn them I was in a great consternation and great fear in regard I must fly and abscond my self and indeed I did it with Tears in my Eyes And whilst we were burning of the Papers one of them spy'd a little Paper-book by chance and she asked me whether that should be burnt I told her no burn not that for there is no Treason in it With that one of them ask'd me is there any Treason in the rest and I put them off to the best of my knowledge and would not give them a direct answer Sir John Trevor Why did you consent to burn them Mr. Dugdale Because I knew they would discover me and others that were concerned in the Plot. Sir Fr. Winn. Your Lordships will be pleased to observe the burning of the Letters was before he discovered the Plot or any thing Mr. Sacheverell My Lords We desire he may be asked one Question he told your Lordships of the Letter that came into Staffordshire about the Death of Sir Edmonbury Godfrey but he hath not told you of the reason why he was to be taken away We desire he will let your Lordships know what reasons they gave for it Mr. Dugdale My Lords I was desirous to know how things went being concerned as well as Mr. Evers and I asked what the reason was they took away his life Mr. Evers told me that there was a Message sent to Mr. Coleman to desire him that he would not reveal what he knew concerning the Plot or any thing of that nature Mr. Sacheverell From whom was that Message sent Mr. Dugdale From the Duke of York And Coleman did send word back again What was it the nearer for he had been so foolish as to reveal all to Sir Edmondbury Godfrey who
knowledge Sir John Trevor Then the next Witness we desire may be called is Mr. Bernard Dennis Mr. Serj. Maynard This Witness we call now is to confirm what Dr. Oats hath said that he was at Validolid and other places in Spain he will be short Lord High Steward Call you Oats again Sir Franc. Winn No my Lord We call Dennis to confirm what Dr. Oats hath said He hath given your Lordship an account that he was in Spain we now produce one that saw him when he was there and so confirms the Evidence given by him Then Mr. Dennis was sworn Mr. Treby Mr. Dennis Do you give their Lordships an Account of your Discoursing with Dr. Oats in Spain or any where else abroad and where L. H. Steward Stay a little Do you know Mr. Oats Mr. Dennis Yes my Lord. L. H. Steward How long have you known him Mr. Dennis I knew him in the year 77. L. H. Steward Where Mr. Dennis At Validolid L. H. Steward Did you see him there was he a Student there Mr. Dennis Yes my Lord. Lord High Stew. Was he known by the name of Oats Mr. Dennis Yes my Lord he was Sir Franc. Winn. My Lord We desire he may tell his knowledge of Mr. Oats what conversation he had with him in Spain Mr. Dennis My Lords I was in Spain in the City of Victoria and leaving the City of Victoria in the month of June I took my course to Madrid and passing through the City of Validolid going into the Convent of the Dominicans there came an Irishman a Priest of Ireland out of the City to seo me and there he told me there was a Student of the Jesuits by name Mr. Oats an Englishman and I understanding this went into the Colledge of the Jesuits to see Mr. Oats and there had conversation with Mr. Oats and in the conversation I had with him there he told me that he was a Vicar in Kent and that he was Chaplain to a great Nobleman in England by name Howard and that he went out of England by the consent of the Jesuits in England being converted by them to the Roman Catholick Faith and that his going into Spain was to fit himself for the Society of the Jesuits and understanding my resolution was to go to Madrid he did desire me to carry a Letter to the Archbishop of Tune one James Lench an Irishman who lived at Madrid and further he lent me four pieces of Eight to defray my Journey to Madrid and desired me to pay the money to the Procurator of the Jesuits at Madrid and in carrying this Letter to the Archbishop when I came there I got a Dominican Fryer of Ireland by name Humphry Delphin to go with me and see the Archbishop at his lodging and going in I delivered him the Letter in the presence of the Dominican and he perused it in my presence and in the presence of a Priest that waited upon him and finishing the Contents of the Letter as I suppose with a smiling Countenance he turned about and said Sirs the Contents of this Letter is that Mr. Oats is desirous to receive the Order of Priesthood from me or at my hands and if it be so it will be much in our way and this man will be a fit man for our purpose for said he further Dr Oliver Plunket Primate of Ireland is resolved this year or with the next Convenience to bring in a French Power into Ireland and thereby to support the Roman Catholicks in England and Ireland and if it please God I my self without any delay will go into Ireland to assist that pious Work All this Discourse between us and the Archbishop and between Oats and me was in July 77. And there I did speak and converse with Mr. Oats All this I can testifie for truth on the behalf of Mr. Oats who was then a Student in the Colledge of Validolid and had no other name nor title Mr. Foley I desire himself may tell your Lordships what Religion he is of Lord High Steward What Religion are you of Mr. Dennis I am a Dominican Fryer my Lord. Lord High Steward Are you Mr. Dennis My Lords I am Lord High Steward At this time Mr. Dennis Yes my Lords Mr. Serj. Maynard He hath a Pardon my Lords Mr. Treby This hath been controverted my Lords whether Mr. Oats ever was in Spain we desire to make it out plain to the world for the Confirmation of his Evidence Therefore we ask him again Do you know the person of Mr. Oats Mr. Dennis Yes I do Mr. Treby Is this person that gave Evidence last before you the same person you saw at Validolid Mr. Dennis Yes it is Mr. Sacheverel My Lords we desire to ask of him why he had the four pieces of Eight of Mr. Oats Lord High Steward Why had you that money of Oats Mr. Dennis For to defray my Journey to Madrid Lord High Stew. Was that all you had Mr. Dennis Yes my Lords Mr. Sacheverel We pray he may be asked how he came to be so needy Mr. Dennis My Lords I was not altogether needy but it is very certain Religious persons especially of my Order cannot carry any money about them but what is requisite for their Journey and that which may be removed from place to place Sir John Trevor I desire to ask him did he see any more money that Dr. Oats had Mr. Dennis I did see Dr. Oats in his Chamber in the Colledge at Validolid when he delivered me the four pieces of Eight to draw out a Drawer of a Table in his Chamber and out of the Drawer he pulled a Bag of money which was a very considerable Sum of money and I am certain he did not want money there then Mr. Treby My Lords I think we have done with him if my Lord please to ask him any Question he may Lord Stafford But only one Question for I never saw the man in my life I desire he may be asked whether he be still of the Romish Religion Sir John Trevor My Lords We have not yet done with him the Question we would ask him is this whether he hath heard of any money that was gathered in Ireland for the support of this Plot Lord High Stew. The Question asked of you have you heard of any money gathered in Ireland for the support of this Plot Mr. Dennis I have both heard and seen of it Lord High Steward When and where Mr. Dennis My Lords in the year 68. I entred into the Order of the Dominicans in Ireland and in the same year there arrived at Dublin a Franciscan Fryer Brother to the late Earl of Carlingford and arriving there he made several Collectors for the levying a competent sum of money out of every Convent and Religious House My Lords the Collectors were by name John Reynolds alias Landy and John Berne and arriving at the County of Sligoe in the month of May. Lord High Stew. What year Mr. Dennis 68. And
discovered and that the greatest Papists the greatest Catholicks in England were in the Design That the Queen and the Duke were in it and that several Lords by name my Lord Bellasis my Lord Powis my Lord Arundel of Wardour and others I believe my Lord Stafford was named but I cannot be positive in that At that time my Lords I did wish I had had a Commission in the new raised Levies that were Mustered on Hounslowe-Heath he told me he would procure me a Commission from the Duke of York and that there was a new Army to be raised to bring in the Catholick Religion but he did say he would tell me more particulars after my receiving the Sacrament of Secresie and I did understand by him that that Commission was not to be sent till the taking off the King was effected but being I was surpâ—ised at it he would not tell me the whole matter but he desired me to come and receive the Sacrament at Sir Philip Tyrwhytts in Blomesbury and then he would acquaint me with the whole Affair My Lords being in Berkshire about the Month of December 78 at Madam Halls in Shinefield Parish one Mr. Cuffil a Jesuit came into our Company It was about the Tryal of Coleman and Mr. Cuffil did then say That he thought Mr. Coleman was infatuated upon the Discovery of the Plâ—t to give notice to Mr. Harcourt Mr. Ireland and Mr. Fenwick and the other Jesuits to burn or secure their Papers and yet not to secure his own My Sister Hall was present at this Discourse and Mr. Cuffil did then further say that Bellarmine did draw a Sentence out of the Scripture to favour the Popes Authority of Excommunicating Depriving and Deposing Temporal Princes and the saying was this Quòd Papa habeat eandem Potestatem super Reges quam Jehoiada habuit super Athaliam And that there were other corroborating Testimonies among the Fathers for it Mr. Treby My Lords we desire to ask him whether ever he heard of Mr. Oats being in the Plot or being thought Trust-worthy among them Mr. Jenison Yes my Lords I did L. H. Stew. When did you hear it and of whom Mr. Jenison Of my Brother Thomas Jenison the Jesuit L. H. Stew. When did he tell you so Mr. Jenison About the latter end of July 78. when there was a Discourse of a Design and that the greatest Papists were in it he said Mr. Oats a Parson newly come over to them was in that Design I answered I did wonder that he would trust a reconciled Enemy he answered That being once reconciled they were more Zealous and Trusty I submitted to his Opinion and instanced in Dr. Godwyn and Dr. Bayley that were Protestants and afterwards came over to the Church of Rome Mr. Treby We have done with him my Lord. L. H. Stew. Will your Lordship ask him any Questions my Lord Stafford L. Staff No my Lord. Sir Fr. Win. My Lords I would only observe the time when he says his Brother told him of the Design that it was about the time of the Mustering of the Forces upon Hounslowe-Heath and that he was then told Mr. Oats was in the Plot I only observe it now for the end of the Case in point of time L. H. Stew. He says it was in July Mr. Jenison It was two Months after the Mustering of the Forces about the latter end of July L. H. Stew. Before the Discovery Mr. Jenison Yes L. H. Stew. Did you know Oats at that time Mr. Jenison No my Lords I was not acquainted with him Sir John Trevor Did you not see him then Mr. Jenison Yes I saw him at Irelands Chamber Sir John Trevor When was that Mr. Jenison The latter end of April or the beginning of May. L. H. Stew. You say you did not know him in July How then can you say you saw him before Mr. Jenison I did not know him I only saw him come into Irelands Chamber and whisper for sometime two or three minutes and then they told me that that was Mr. Oats a Parson newly come over to them a brisk jolly man and worthy my acquaintance L. H. Stew. Is this the same man you saw there Mr. Jenison My Lords I can't remember his face for he was gone out when I was told of him L. H. Stew. Why you know Mr. Oats now Mr. Jenison Yes I do L. H. Steward Do you know him to be the same man that you saw then Mr. Jenison I can't tell that Sir John Trevor My Lords he says Mr. Oats only came in for three or four minutes and his back was towards him and his Brother told him when he was gone who it was Mr. Jenison I only knew his Name from my Brother Mr. Treby And I presume your Lordships will observe this was at the very time of the Jesuits Consult Sir John Trevor We desire this Gentleman may tell your Lordships who his Brother is and what Profession he is of Mr. Jenison My Brother was a Jesuit brought up at St. Omers L. H. Steward Your Brother is dead and died in Newgate Mr. Jenison Yes he did so L. H. Steward Pray recollect your self again When was it that you saw the man they called Oats at the Jesuits Chamber Mr. Jenison My Lords It was in the year 78 the latter end of April or the beginning of May. And I will tell you why I apprehend it to be that time My Brother being a Priest lived with Sir Phillip Tyrwhitt in Lincolnshire and in that year in Lent he came to Town with my Lady and that Family and he and I used to Dine together at the Fish Ordinary at Pedleys And about three weeks or a month after that time when he came to Town I was at Mr. Irelands Chamber and there was a Gentleman whom they told me was Oats L. H. Stew This you say was the latter end of April or beginning of May 78 for the time is material upon your Oath you say it Mr. Jenison Yes my Lords I do L. H. Stew. You say it was at Ireland's Chamber Mr. Jenison Yes my Lords Sir Fr. Win. My Lords will you give us leave to ask him one short Question because some of the Gentlemen doubt of it we would ask it again what his Brother was whether he was a Jesuit or no Mr. Jenison I have heard him own it my Lords L. H. Stew. Whom do you call next Gentlemen Mr. Treby If it please your Lordships we shall in the next place produce our Evidences that are matters of Record and we desire your Lordships advice and direction how we are to minister the same whether your Lordships will have them all read 〈…〉 of them and let them be left with your Lordships L. 〈…〉 〈…〉 Records are they Mr. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 are the Records of the Attainder of Coleman Ireland and the other Conspirators L. H. Stew. The Fact is so notorious that they were Attainted and Executed That the reading of a word will serve the turn Sir
Religion our King and his Protestant Subjects And 't is even impossible that this Design so big could be conducted without the concurrence of such persons as this Noble Lord at the Bar. It could not be carried on by less and lower men And it were a wonder that a person so servently affected and addicted as this Lord is to that Party should not be in at so general a Design of the Party But this indeed is but presumptive Evidence which will induce a moral persuasion We shall now produce such positive Evidence as will make a judicial certainty and will abundantly suffice to convince your Lordships and convict this Lord. The Particulars you will hear out of the mouths of the Witnesses whom we shall call They will testifie what share this Lord had in almost all the Parts and Articles in our Charge contriving and contracting for the Murder of the King levying Arms c. And first we call Mr. Dugdale L. Stafford My Lords I conceive I have good ground to except against this man for a Witness for my own particular I know myself as clear â—nd free as any one here but I will not except against him now but reserve it against the time when I come to make my Defence and therefore admit him to be sworn provided my Lords that he look me full in the face L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford what is your Exception against this man that he may not be a Witness L. Stafford I do admit him to be sworn I say nothing now against him Mr. Treby He is sworn already L. H. Stew. You swore him to give Evidence as to the general Plot you did not swear him as to the particulars against my Lord Stafford Sir John Trevor We are content he shall be sworn again we pray he may be sworn Sir Will. Jones 'T is true my Lords we did divide the Evidence into two parts but his Oath was not divided if your Lordships please you may swear them all over again if it may be any satisfaction but I think it was never seen before Then Mr. Dugdale was sworn L. H. Stew. There is Mr. Dugdale come Sir what say you L. Staff Really he is so changed I do not know him Mr. Dugd My Lord I have Witnesses to prove that you know me L. Staff I beg your Lordships that he may look me in the face and give his Evidence as the Law is Sir John Trevor My Lords if this Noble Lord the prisoner at the Bar will have this Witness to look him continually in the face the Court will not hear half his Evidence We desire he may address himself as the Law is to your Lordships and the Judges L. Staff I desire the Letter of the Law which says my Accuser shall come face to face Mr. Dugd. My Lords I am willing to do as your Lordships shall order L. H. Steward My Lord you do see the Witness that is enough for face to face and you make no legal exception against him why he should not be heard L. Staff Very well my Lord I submit Mr. Dugd. My Lords I have for some years past whilst I was a Servant with my Lord Aston been acquainted and frequently had Discourses with my Lord Stafford before we came to discourse any thing concerning the Plot on foot Lately in 78. my Lord coming down into the Countrey it was either in August or September the latter end of August or the beginning of September L. Staff I beseech your Lordships he may name the times L. H. Stew. My Lord if your Lordship please do not interrupt the Witnesses but wherein he is short do you ask him the Question when it comes to your turn I will bring it to as much certainty as I can Mr. Dugd. There was a meeting at Tixal where there were several present L. H. Steward When Mr. Dugdale It was in September or the latter end of August L. H. Stew. What year Mr. Dugdale 78. My Lords I had then by Mr. Evers means admittance to hear because of my incouragement what the Discourse was at that time It was to debate and determine upon the former Resolutions both beyond Sea and at London before both to take away the life of the King and to introduce their Religion of which I was then one My Lord Stafford was there present and did with the rest consent to it Afterwards my Lord Stafford being at one Mr. Abnets of Stafford one Sunday morning in September came to my Lord Aston's House to Mass I met with my Lord Stafford at some distance from the Gate and my Lord speaking to me when he alighted off from his Horse told me it was a very sad thing they could not say their Prayers but in an hidden manner but e're long we should have our Religion established which was much to my joy at that time After that time my Lord Stafford was sometimes at Stafford and sometimes at Tixal I will not bâ— positive as to a day but I think it was about the middle of September My Lord Stafford sent for me to his lodging Chamber as he had several times before sent for me and said he had had great Commendations of me from Mr. Evers that I was Faithful and Trusty Lord Stafford My Lords I desire I may have Pen Ink and Paper allowed me L. H. Stew. Ay God forbid you should be denied that Give my Lord Pen Ink and Paper I hope your Lordship hath one to assist you that takes Notes for you if you have not you have lost a great deal of time already L. Staff There was one all day yesterday my Lords I desire he may speak his Evidence over again L. H. Stew. Let him begin his Evidence again for my Lord had not Pen Ink nor Paper which he ought to have to help his memory Mr. Dugdale I may miss as to the words but the matter of Fact I shall repeat my Lords I have been frequently acquainted whilst I was a Servant at my Lord Aston's with my Lord Stafford coming to my Lords House in the Counâ—rey and my Lord being several times there I came to that Intimacy by Mr. Evers means that my Lord would frequently discourse with me About the latter end of August or some day in September my Lord Stafford my Lord Aston and several other Gentlemen were in a Room in my Lord Aston's House and by the means of Mr. Evers I was admitted to hear for my incouragement and there I heard them in that Debate at that time fully determine a Resolution upon all the Debates that had been beyond Sea and at London before That it was the best way they could resolve on to take away the life of the King as the speediest means to introduce their own Religion After sometime my Lord being at Stafford at Mr. Abnets L. H. Steward Was my Lord Stafford at that meeting where they debated to kill the King Mr. Dugdale My Lord was there L. H. Steward Was he consenting to
he knew of the Plot 15 or 16 years ago if I be not mistaken he says so Mr. Dugd. My Lords if your Lordships please to give me leave to explain my self further it was not for taking away the life of the King but for making ready against the King died with Men and Arms. L. Staff My Lords he says in the latter end of August or beginning of September I told him such and sucâ— things I desire he may name the day that may be many days and I may prove I was not there and I can prove for all August and a good while in September therefore I desire he may name the day L. H. Steward My Lord Stafford I come thus near on purpose to serve your Lordship that you may not strain your voice too much but I am not so happy as to apprehend what it is you say L. Staff My Lords I say he speaks of the latter end of August or beginning of September which is too great a latitude and I conceive more than ought to be given in such a matter of importance as this is to me I desire he may name the day for he may name days perhaps that I was not there L. H. Steward Look you Mr. Dugdale my Lord does desire if you can you would be a little more particular than about the latter end of August or the beginning of September if you can remember the day tell it us Mr. Dugd. I cannot remember particular days it being a thing I then took no account of only this I do remember by a remarkable circumstance that one time was either the 20. or 21. of September 78. L. H. Stew. That was the time of your coming into his Chamber and his offering you five hundred pound Mr. Dugd. It was so but other meetings I dare not charge to a day Lord Stafford How then can I make my Defence Mr. Dugdale I will stand to that time Lord Stafford How my Lords can I be able to give an account of it I shall prove to your Lordships that he once said it was in August now he says it was in August or September I beseech you that he may positively stand to the month if not to the day Mr. Dugdale I speak as neer as I can Lord Stafford But he says the 20. or 21. particularly Mr. Dugdale Thereabouts I am sure it was Lord Stafford Look you he will be positive in nothing Mr. Dugdale I will stand to that time Lord Stafford If he swears false in one thing I hope upon proof of that your Lordships will believe he may be false in all I pray he may be asked what hour of the day it was whether it was morning or afternoon L. H. Steward He is positive only to the 20. or 21. of September the time when he says you called for him into your Chamber and offered him five hundred pound to kill the King would your Lordship ask him whether it were in the forenoon or afternoon Lord Stafford Yes my Lord I would Lord High Steward Was it in the forenoon or in the afternoon Mr. Dugdale It was in the forenoon for I did formerly speak of that he was dressing himself when I came in L. H. Steward Then that is answered positively Lord Stafford My Lords he says one Sunday morning I came to my Lord Astons to Mass I desire you would please to ask him whether ever he saw Mr. Evers and me in his life alone together L. H. Steward Have you seen my Lord Stafford and Mr. Evers ever together alone Mr. Dugdale Several times I have seen them walking together in the Garden and in the Walks at my Lord Astons and I have been with them my self when there hath been only them two besides L. H. Stew. That is answered fully will your Lordship ask him any thing else Lord Stafford He says he was to go to London in October with me I stand not upon that till I come to make my Answer but I take it he says the 20. or 21. of September when I offered him five hundred pound in my Chamber to kill the King that he went presently to Evers to speak with him about it Lord High Stew. As doubting the payment of the money and he told him that Harcourt and Ireland would pay it Lord Stafford Was it the same day pray ask him my Lords Mr. Dugdale I do not say it was the same day but it was the next time I could come to speak with him Lord High Steward He tells you it was as soon as he could speak with him Lord Stafford He said before it was presently after he went from me I desire your Lordships would take notice how he contradicts himself in every circumstance Lord High Stew. What say you did you go presently to Mr. Evers after my Lord Stafford had made the offer Or was it the same day or the next day Mr Dugdale To the best of my remembrance it was the same day I can't say positively Lord Stafford My Lords I have no other Questions with Dugdale Sir John Trevor Then my Lords we will call another Witness Lord High Steward Have you no more to say to Dugdale my Lord Lord Stafford Not at present till I come to make my defence Lord High Stew. God forbid but you should have leave to say all that you can for your self Mr. Treby Then set up Dr. Oats Do your Lordships require that he should be sworn again Lord Stafford I desire nothing nor propose it if he will declare upon his Oath that he took yesterday Lord High Stew. Heark you Dr. Oats This is but a continuation of the Proceedings yesterday you are upon the same Oath now that you were then and what you say this morning will be taken to be upon the same Oath Mr. Treby Dr. Oats upon the Oath you have taken yesterday Lord High Stew. Pray swear him again which was done Mr. Treby Dr. Oats Pray speak your knowledge of my Lord Stafford's being ing aged in the Design Dr. Oats I desire I may be left to my own method L. H. Steward Go on in your own method Dr. Oats My Lords in the year 67. there were divers attempts upon the life of the King as the Jesuits told me and in the year 74. there was an attempt upon the account of the Kings withdrawing the Indulgence in 74. and 75. in the year 1677. whilst I was in Spain I met with several letters signed Stafford wherein my Lord Stafford did assure the Jesuits in Spain that were of the Irish Nation how zealous he should appear in the promoting of the Catholick Design My Lords in the year 77. I went to St. Omers and I came there in December My Lords in that year I being ordered to look over the Papers and put them in order I found several Letters signed Stafford wherein my Lord Stafford did intimate to the Fathers that whereas there had been some difference betwixt him and the Society for several years
the business was reconciled by one Seignior Con who came over into England in the year 76. to reconcile the great Difference that was betwixt the Jesuits and the secular Clergy and between the Benedictine Monks and the Jesuits My Lords my Lord Stafford upon the perswasion of this Seignior Con as he does intimate in his letter does assure the Jesuits of his fidelity and his zeal My Lords in the year 78. I found letters from my Lord Stafford wherein he does blame Mr. Coleman's openness and his being too publick in the great Affair and that Mr. Coleman was pleased to communicate several great secrets to men of whose Fidelity his Lordship was not secure My Lords in the year 78. in the month of June my Lord Stafford the Prisoner at the Bar came to Mr. Fenwick and there received a Commission from him to pay an Army that was to be raised for the promoting of the Catholick Interest and he did assure Mr. Fenwick that he was going down into Staffordshire and there he did not question but he should have a good account how the Catholicks stood affected and he did not question but to give a good account how Affairs stood in Staffordshire Shropshire and Lancashire and this Commission to my Lord Stafford was as neer as I can remember to be Pay-Master-General of the Army My Lords among other Discourses with my Lord at the Bar he was discoursing about my Lord Duke of Norfolk and my Lord Arundel his Son and after several other passages he Fenwick was asking of him how my Lord Arundel came to have a Jesuit in his House My Lord Stafford did say that my Lord of Peterborough his Father in Law was instrumental in it on purpose to oblige the Duke of York for my Lord Arundel as I have been told kept Father Symonds in his House who to my knowledge was a Jesuit But my Lords he came to Mr. Fenwicks my Lord Stafford did by the name of Mr. Howard of Effingham L. H. Steward Were you at Fenwicks when my Lord Stafford came to his Chamber Dr. Oats Yes my Lords L. H. Steward Look upon my Lord Stafford is that the same Person Dr. Oats It is the same Gentleman that came there by the name of Howard of Effingham L. H. Steward And he took the Commission Dr. Oats Yes he did so L. H. Steward And he promised to effect it Dr. Oats Yes And he said that he was then going down into the Countrey and he did not doubt but at his return Grove should do the business L. H. Steward Who said so Fenwick Dr. Oats No my Lord Stafford And says Fenwick to my Lord Stafford again Sir â—tis fit that some should be here present least you fail of your Expectation or to that purpose 'T is two years since and I cannot remember the words but my Lord Stafford did say he was of necessity to go into the Country at that time And there he did write a letter to St. Omers in which he did excuse himself about a young man that was to be sent to the Jesuits Colledge whom he had taken care of another way And he desired their excuse but he would be as faithful to them as any body for all that And the same hand that wrote that letter by all the comparing I could make in my thoughts wrote all the other Letters that I saw at St. Omers and in Spain My Lords I saw my Lord Stafford at Dr. Perrotts I think verily it was in June or July 78. it was before the rising of the Parliament that sat that Summer and my Lord Stafford was discoursing of a Son he was to send over to Lisbon and he went over by the name of Sir John Stafford And after this Discourse was over they fell into a Discourse of the Affairs in hand and my Lord was mighty glad there was so good a Correspondence and Concord though my Lords it was not very great for the Jesuits have an irreconcileable Quarrel with the rest of the Clergy But my Lord did hope that their fair Correspondence might tend highly to the advancing the Catholick Cause But my Lords I have one thing more to speak as to the Discourse at Fenwicks Chamber speaking of the King he said He hath deceived us a great while and we can bear no longer Lord High Stew. Who said so Dr. Oats My Lord Stafford the Gentleman at the Bar. Lord High Stew. When was that At Dr. Perrotts Dr. Oats No I speak of a passage at Fenwick's which I had forgot My Lords this is all I can remember at present M. Foley My Lords I desire he may give an Account what letters my Lord Stafford sent to Fenwick and Ireland to pay money Dr. Oats There was some money returned but it was no great Sum and it was about private business Mr. Morgan was to receive it I chanced to have the money in my own keeping Mr. Fenwick gave it me to pay to Mr. Morgan and the letter in which the Sum was mentioned did give them an Account for it was out of Staffordshire that he found things stand in a very good state there but I being not within Mr. Morgan called on Mr. Fenwick for the money which I returned to him when he had paid it Lord Stafford My Lords I do in the first place desire to know where Mr. Fenwick lived Lord High Stew. Where did Mr. Fenwick live when you saw my Lord at his Chamber and the Commission delivered Dr. Oats His Lordship I suppose knows very well where he lived he lived in Drury-lane Lord Stafford I will submit to any thing if I ever saw the man or heard of him till the Discovery of the Plot. Dr. Oats He came to him by the name of Thompson Lord High Stew. Your Lordship does not observe your Lordship says that you never knew any Fenwick but your Lordship knew one Thompson and that Thompson was Fenwick Lord Stafford I did know one Thompson but that Thompson I knew was an â—nglish Merchant in Brussels and not a Jesuit Dr. Oats I can't say what my Lord knows that he knew Fenwick to be a Jesuit but he knew one Thompson that was Fenwick the Jesuit Lord Stafford I never heard of the Name till this Plot. Dr. Oats But if your Lordships please I will give you a reason why I believe he knew him to be a Jesuit because the Society was very often in their mouths in their Discourses which gives me a ground to believe he knew him to be what he was but my Lord he took his Commission from him Lord Stafford I desire he may be asked L. H. Steward Good my Lord raise your voice for I am come half way to hear you Lord Stafford Pray my Lords give me leave to ask him whether Dr. Oats hath not said several times since I was first imprisoned that he never saw me in his life I think I was imprisoned the 21. of October 78. Dr. Oats I never said any such thing
L. Stafford Of Dr. Oats that was read in your Lordships House I heard it L. H. Stew. Let us understand your Lordships demands that when my Lords are withdrawn I may know what Questions to put to them and acquaint them with your desires The one is the Journal of the Lords House which is always before their Lordships and you might have had Copies long since The next thing you ask is an Affidavit of Dugdale if this Affidavit is entred into the Journal that supplies your Demands if it be not entred there where shall we find it L. Stafford I do not know L. H. Stew. Does your Lordship think all this matter must stay till we can find a loose Affidavit that we know not where 't is filed L. Stafford I know it was before the Council and I believe my Accusers have it I desire the Gentlemen of the House of Commons may produce it Sir John Trevor I have seen none nor have none L. Stafford The one was taken the 24. of December this time two year and the other the 29. L. H. Stew. My Lord will your Lordship give me leave to tell you you ought to be provided with some particular exception and not to make your demand in general If your Lordship will say Dugdale did swear such and such things which are contrary to what he now affirms we know what to make of it but to hunt after an Affidavit that we know not where to find to pick something out of it that I do not understand L. Stafford I appeal to my Lord of Essex and my Lord Bridgewater whether they did not examine me the first time upon one or two Affidavits of Dugdale L. H. Stew. Suppose it be not to be found my Lord L. Stafford Then I must have patience and submit L. H. Stew. Can you tell wherein he swore quite blank contrary to what he swears now L. Stafford My Lord I conceive it was never denied before but your Lordships may do what you please L. H. Stew. Well my Lord let us go on to the next The Affidavits of Dugdale if they be entred on the Journal may be ready if not thenâ— shall acquaint their Lordships and they will direct what is fit in the case L. Stafford Then there is the Affidavit of Oats before my Lord Chief Justice upon which I was committed the next day which was Friday it was read in your Lordships House L. H. Stew. I believe that is entred upon the Journal and so will be ready to be used L. Staff I do hope to make it evidently appear thereby that he is forsworn I desire two Affidavits more that were taken before the Justices of the Peace of Middlesex who examined Mr. Turbervile twice L. H. Stew. What Justice of the Peace L. Staff Mr. Warcupp Sir William Poultney and Sir Thomas Stringer I desire I may not be misunderstood I do not desire to have them to instruct my Counsel or advise with them upon them but I cannot make my Defence without them L. H. Stew. Those are voluntary extrajudicial Affidavits that no body is bound to keep L. Staff They were spoken of in the Votes of the House of Commons L. H. Steward What say you Gentlemen to it Sir Fran. Winn. My Lords because my Lord at the Bar is pleased to insinuate as if we knew where those Affidavits are which he seems to desire and because your Lordship was pleased to say that the Commons in Parliament are the Grand-Jury of the Kingdom I desire to say one thing That certainly it will not be required from us to produce and publish the several Facts and Circumstances that induced us to impeach him if it shall be demanded by the Prisoner at the Bar. L. H. Steward I wish you would answer the Question and not argue upon it whether those Affidavits of Turbervile may not be produced for 't is my Lords Exception against your Witnesses that he swears several ways and by those Affidavits of Turbervile he intends to disprove him in what he hath said to day Sir Fr. Win. My Lords the House of Commons never administer an Oath and therefore it is not to be said to us but my Lord Stafford must go to the particular Offices where they are to be found L. H. Stew. I do not ask you where my Lord should find them but whether if they can be found you can object any thing why they should not be produced and read Mr. Serj. Maynard When they are produced we will give an Answer L. Stafford My Lords I am informed this is the substance of the Affidavit That Turbervile did swear before two Justices of the Peace whether they be of the House of Commons or no I cann't tell that he spoke with me at Doway and in Paris in the years 73. and 77. and now he says 72. and 75. I am informed my Lords and I appeal to the House of Commons they are all Persons of Honour and Worth if my Information be mistaken I beg their Pardon and yours for 't whether he did not mend it after he had sworn it L. H. Stew. Are these all you do demand L. Stafford Yes my Lords Whether this was true or no I don't know â— is what I have been told I appeal to the House of Commons who are all worthy persons I do not believe I have an Enemy among them they know whether I speak true or no. L. H. Stew. When will your Lordship be ready to make your Defence L. Stafford As soon as ever I have them I will not stay a minute a moment an instant I desire not to shew my Counsel nor any one for my Tryal is a thing that I have long desired Therefore I would not be mistaken as if I would put off the Cause I am innocent and shall be so while I live and hope I shall make it appear so I beg if this be a matter of Law whether I may have them or not that my Counsel be heard to it L. H. Stew. This is a matter of Fact L. Stafford I insist upon it as things without which I cannot make my Defence I am innocent and I suppose not one of the House of Commons nor one of your Lordships will debar me of that by which I may make my Innocency appear Lord High Steward You cannot know my Lords pleasure till they are withdrawn Sir William Jones Before your Lordships withdraw I hope you will please to hear us a few words which we think may be for the Service of this Court. My Lords what Evidence is before your Lordships 't is in your Lordships pleasure what of that you shall please to communicate to my Lord Stafford but for this Evidence he speaks of as remaining in our hands and which he takes upon himself to appeal to us for admits of another consideration My Lords if we were conscious of any thing in these Affidavits that were for my Lords Advantage and knew where they were we would
I do now L. Stafford I desire my Witnesses may be called to prove it for I conceive it is very material My Lords does he deny it Mr. Dugd. I do say there was a Consult at Tixal in August but I did not charge your Lordship positively to be there then nor with more than I do now L. Staff I think you did and I have witnesses to prove it And 't is impossible for any man living to defend himself if persons shall swear as they suppose think or remember I tell your Lordships I was not there in all the month of August L. H. Stew. Does your Lordship intend to call any Witnesses L. Stafford My Lords I thought I had more Witnesses than I have But I have two here if your Lordships will hear them that he did swear I was at Tixal in August L. H. Stew. Who are they L. Stafford My Daughter Winchester for one and a Lady that is my Kinswoman for another L. H. Stew. Let them stand up they are not to be sworn You don't except against them Gentlemen Sir Will. Jones No let him prove what he can Lady Marchioness of Winchester He did swear that he was to receive his Orders from L. H. Stew. Madam your Ladyship is not upon your Oath but you are under all the obligations of Truth and Honour in the world Lady March Winch. My Lords by the Grace of God I will not speak an untrue word Sir Will. Jones We desire to know this Ladies Name L. Stafford It is my Daughter Winchester Lady March Winch. This Stephen Dugdale did say at the Tryal of Sir George Wakeman That he was to receive Orders from my Lord in June or July when he was to come down and that my Lord was at a Consult at Tixal in August L. H. Stew. Did he say positively in August or in August and September Lady March Winch. No he did not name September Mr. Dugdale My Lords I might say my Lord was to come down then but not that ever I said he was there but as now L. H. Stew. But she says you did not name September L. Stafford Here is another Lady Sir Will. Jones Who is she my Lord L. Stafford Mrs. Howard Daughâ—er to Sir George â—lount and married to Mr. Howard a Kinsman of mine she is now a Widow Mrs. Howard My Lords at the Tryal of Sir George Wakeman Dugdale was asked to be positive in the Month my Lord Stafford came down And he said he came down in June or July but he said the Consult was in August wherein my Lord Stafford was L. H. Stew. That Lady likewise says the same That you would not be positive as to June or July but as to August you were positive that my Lord was there Mr. Dugd. No my Lords I only said in August there was a Consult and in June or July my Lord was to come down Mrs. Howard I do assure you we came to that Tryal on purpose to observe every word he said about my Lord Stafford and we have kept it in our memories ever since L. H. Stew. What do you say Mr. Dugdale to it Mr. Dugd. I suppose there was a great many more at that Tryal than these two worthy Ladies and I suppose some of them may remember I said no more than I do now I said then my Lord was to come down at that time and so I said several times but not positively that he was there till the end of August or the beginning of September L. Stafford My Lords I do positively averr here are two Witnesses that say he swore I was there at the Consult in August Now it concerns me to prove that I was not there in August since he said absolutely I was there in August and I assure you I can prove I was not there not all the whole Month. In the beginning of August I came from London from my own House on Tuesday or Wednesday the 6. of August I went to my Lord Bellasis's and that night I went to George Porters the next night I went onwards towards Bath when I was there I went over and staid with my Noble Lord the Marquess of Worcester there I staid two or three days and I went thence to another place hard by there and then I came back again to Bath and went back again afterwards to my Lords House and the first or second of September I went from my Lords House to London Then it this be acknowledged I need say no more if not I 'll prove it by sufficient Witnesses So then I was not there the whole Month of August and the beginning of September he says he spoke with me I was not there till the 12. of September Now I beseech your Lordships how that could possibly be the beginning of September I submit to you whether then he be a Witness fit to be heard that shall sweat positively what hath no colour of truth in it I also leave to you And if they object I was not where I say I was in August I will prove it And for the 20. and 21. of September I do own something of that and I shall prove to your Lordships what it was L. H. Stew. Call what Witnesses you please my Lord. L. Stafford My Daughter proves when I went out of Town Lady March Winch. My Lords it was on a Tuesday my Father went to my Lord Bellasis he dined there and then went on to George Porters L. Stafford That I was at Bath I shall call Witnesses L. H. Stew. My Lord you should prove when you first came to Tixal my Lord Aston's L. Staff Will that satisfie your Lordship L. H. Stew. Me 'T is not me you are to satisfie but my Lords and the Gentlemen of the House of Commons L. Staff Then I do own to your Lordships I came the first time the 12 th of September to Tixal L. H. Stew. That was the first day you were there L. Staff That Year my Lord it was Sir Will. Jones Prove it L. Staff Does he deny that my Lords L. H. Stew. Do you deny that my Lord came first to Tixal the 12. of September Or do you know he was there before Mr. Dugdale My Lords I have positively spoke to no day but only to the 21. or 20. of September L. Staff Where is my Lord Marquess of Worcester's Servant L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford it will be best for your Lordship to produce all the Witnesses you have and not to leave any thing undone that you can prove L. Staff But I beseech your Lordships I may ask one Question if I shall name any of the House of Peers as my Witnesses does that exempt them from being Judges L. H. Stew. No my Lord. If your Lordship have any Witnesses among any of my Lords here they may very well testifie for you and yet remain still in the capacity of your Judges for my Lord of Strafford had a great many Witnesses that were Peers Sir John Trevor We do not oppose it my Lords L.
to Tixal L. H. Stew. How long is that Mr. Philips About fourteen years L. H. Stew. What Reputation had he in the Country was he looked upon as one that would perjure himself Mr. Philips I never knew any thing of that Lord High Steward Was he thought a stout man Mr. Philips He was in good repute with some and indifferent with others L. H. Stew. Will you call any more Witnesses my Lord L. Stafford I would only ask him one Question Whether he did go to my Lord Aston from Dugdale to know if he would own him for his Servant Lord High Steward What say you Sir did you Mr. Philips Yes my Lords he knows very well I did he did request me to go to him My Lord Aston I was loth to go to because I had no familiarity with him nor Interest in him but he did request and urge me so much that I did go by much motives and persuasions from him and I did speak to my Lord so I told him the Message I had was from Mr. Dugdale who would request of my Lord that he would own him for his Servant for if he did not he knew not what to do with himself but if he did he might be free from the Gaol and from the Oaths and escape the Troubles that were upon him So my Lord replyed to me 'T is his own act and deed and I have nothing to do with him and let the Justices do what they will with him which were Sir Walter Bagott and Mr. Kinnersley Mr. Foley We desire to know whether he heard any discourse about a Plot at that time or no. Mr. Philips Truly my Lords I heard a talk of a Plot but not at that time Mr. Foley My Lords I desire to know if he took Mr. Dugdale for a person that might be in the Plot if there was any such thing Mr. Philips I cannot tell how to answer that 't is an hard Question I am not so intimately acquainted with persons whose secrets are not reposed in me L. Staff The next Witness I desire may be with the leave of the Gentlemen of the House of Commons Sir Walter Bagott I did desire him to be here Sir Will. Jones There he is we do not oppose it L. H. Stew. Is it your Lordships pleasure that Sir Walter Bagott be heard in his place Lords Yes Sir Walter Bagott L. H. Stew. What would you ask Sir Walter my Lord L. Staff My Lords I desire to ask Sir Walter Bagott whether he did not apprehend Dugdale and upon what account it was L. H. Stew. Sir Walter Bagott my Lord desires to know of you whether you did apprehend Dugdale and upon what account Sir Walter Bagott My Lords Mr. Dugdale was taken at an unseasonable time of night and brought to me the next morning by the Watch as the other Witnesses have told your Lordships and I took him away to Stafford where there were several other Justices of the Peace there we offered him the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy which he took After the taking of these Oaths we told him that he was a likely man to know something of the Plot and it was a very proper time for him to discover it to us that were Justices he at that time did deny the knowledge of it that is all I can say Lord Stafford I desire Sir Walter Bagott may be asked whether he did not go to my Lord Aston to see whether he would own Dugdale as his Servant L. H. Stew. Did you ask my Lord Aston to own him for his Servant Sir Walt. Bag. Yes I did for my Lords house being in the way to Stafford whither I was going I called upon him to know if Mr. Dugdale were his Servant he told me he was no servant of his and he would not receive him Upon which I and another Justice of the Peace that was with me took him to Stafford The occasion of our meeting there was to summon in the Militia upon an Alarm of the Papists being risen in Derbyshire L. Stafford I make this use of it my Lords that my Lord Aston would not receive him and if my Lord Aston had known he had been in the Plot and could have discovered him he would not have disobliged him L. H. Stew. Nay he says more then that which you don't hear he says when they examined him they gave him the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy and then told him he would do well to discover his knowledge of the Plot and then he did not own any thing he knew nay he denyed it Mr. Foley Did he deny the knowing of it Sir Walter Bagott Yes he did then Sir Fran. Win. He was not resolved to discover at that time Mr. Serj. Maynard We desire Sir Walter Bagott may be asked whether he examined him upon his Oath or no. Sir Walter Bagott No I did not Mr Serj. Mayn But had they then just given him the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy Sir Walter Bagott Yes my Lords we gave him those Oaths and those only L. Stafford Then Mr. Kinnersley if you please who stood up Be pleased to ask this worthy Gentleman what he knows about Dugdales going from my Lord Aston L. H. Stew. First let us know this Gentleman L. Stafford His name is Kinnersley Mr. Kinnersley What Questions would your Lordship ask me L. Stafford What you know about Dugdales going from my Lord Aston L. H. Stew. Mr. Kinnersley we must know your Christian Name Mr. Kinnersley Thomas L. H. Stew. Do you know Mr. Dugdale Mr. Kinnersley My Lords I was not acquainted with Mr. Dugdale till Sir Brian Broughton Sir Walter Bagott and I and others gave him the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy the latter end of November or the beginning of December I did not take notice exactly of the time L. H. Stew. What year Mr. Kinnersley 78 L. H. Stew. Well Sir go on Mr. Kinnersley When he had taken the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy I asked him if he knew any Treason or Conspiracy against the King telling him it was a seasonable time to declare it He told me he knew of none This is all I know and all the discourse that I remember we had with Mr. Dugdale Mr. Serj. Maynard Pray why did you ask him that Question Mr. Kinnersley The Plot was then newly broken out Mr. Serj. Maynard Why did you ask him so particularly Mr. Treby Why did you think Mr. Dugdale concerned in it Mr. Kinnersley Because we heard he was a Papist and my Lord Aston's Servant L. Staff Then I desire Sir Thomas Whitegrave may be examined Who stood up L. H. Stew. What say you to Sir Tho. Whitegrave my Lord L. Staff Will your Lordships please to ask Sir Tho. Whitegrave whether he did not examine Dugdale about the Plot and what he said at that time Sir Tho. Whitegrave My Lords I came to Stafford the latter end of November or the beginning of December I am not certain which but I think it
me to the White Horse in Ridgley and there when I came to him he told me I knew as much of the Plot as he I told him I was innocent of the thing he swore God damn him that I knew as much as he Then I told him if he knew no more than I did he knew no more than my Lord Mayor's great Horse did Then he took me aside Come says he you are a poor man and live poorly I can put you in a way whereby you may live gallantly I will give you 50 l. in hand if so be you will do so and so and 50 l. more when the thing is done L. H. Stew. What do you mean by so and so Morrall To swear against Mr. Howard Sir James Symons and several other Gentlemen of the Country L. H. Stew. Did he offer you any mony to swear against my Lord Stafford Morrall No I did not hear him mention any thing of him L. H. Stew. But he offered you mony to swear against Symons and Howard Morrall Yes my Lord and Herbert Aston my Lord Aston's Kinsman L. H. Stew. What were you to swear Morrall That they were at such a Meeting at Mr. Herbert Aston's upon the Conspiracy of the Plot. L. H. Stew. Will you ask him any thing Managers No set him by Then another Witness stood up L. H. Steward What is your Name Witness Samuel Holt. L. H. Stew. What Profession are you L. Stafford Pray my Lords ask him whether Dugdale would perswade him to swear that which he knew not L. H. Steward What Profession are you of Holt. A Protestant of the Church of England L. H. Stew. What Trade Holt. A Blacksmith L. H. Stew. Where do you live Holt. At Tixal L. H. Stew. Are you my Lord Aston's Servant Holt. No my Lords L. H. Stew. What say you Holt. My Lords he sent a man and a Horse for me to Stafford to the Star L. H. Stew. Who did Holt. Mr. Dugdale did And there I waited upon him a good while At length he came and told me he must speak with me privately so he told me if I would swear that VValter Moor carried Evers away he would give me 40 l. And he bid me not be afraid to swear for fear of my Lord Aston for he would hire me an Horse and get me to London and place me that where I got one shilling I should g et five L. H. Stew. Did you know Evers Holt. Yes my Lords I have seen him L. H. Stew. Do you know when he went away from Tixal Holt. No my Lords L. H. Stew. What else can you say Holt. Nothing else L. H. Stew. Will you ask him any Questions Gentlemen Managers No. L. Stafford T' e next thing I go upon is that Stephen Dugdale at the Tryal of the five Jesuits swore That he acquainted Sambidge with the Letter about the death of Sir Edmundbury Godsrey the Munday or Tuesday after which Mr. Sambidge denies And in order to that I call Mr. Sambidge but if your Lordships please I shall first prove that hâ— swore it then Where is Mr. Lydcott who stood up I desire to ask him whether Dugdale did swear at the Tryal of the five Jesuits that he acquainted Mr. Sambidge with the Letter about the death of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey L. H. Stew. You fellow Witness My Lord. L. H. Stew. What is your Name VVitness John Lydcott L. H. Stew. How do you live Lydcott I am a Fellow of Kings Colledge in Cambridge L. H. Stew. What do you come to say Lydcott I don't know my Lords what my Lord will ask me Sir VVill. Jones My Lords before you enter into the examination of this man we desire to ask him a Question or two Mr Serj. Mayn Whose Servant are you or were you lately Lydcott I am Fellow of Kings Colledge Mr. Serj. Maynard But whom did you serve lately were you never Secretary to a Lord Lydcott Yes I was Mr. Serj. Mayn To what Lord Lydcott To my Lord Castlemain Sir L. H. Stew. What Religion are you of Lydcott Of the Church of England and always was nay I can't say always for I was bred up a Presbyterian my Father was a Colonel under Monk L. Stafford Mr. Lydcott I ask whether you did not hear Mr. Dugdale swear at the Tryal of the five Jesuits Mr. Serj. Mayn I desire one favour my Lords my Lord Stafford asks Questions to lead the Witness pray let him ask his Questions more generally L. H. Stew. You say you are a Protestant Lydcott Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. When did you last receive the Sacrament Lydcott When I was last at Cambridge No not so for it is not above a year ago that I was there L. H. Stew. When then did you receive the Sacrament Lydcott I do not exactly remember my Lords L. H. Stew. My Lord I would be glad to know what is the Question your Lordship calls him for that your Lordship may not ask the Question but by me L. Stafford My Lords I desire to know for my part I know not what his Answer will be whether he did hear at the Tryal of the five Jesuits Dugdale swear he had communicated the news of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey's death which was on the Saturday on the Tuesday after to any people and to whom L. H. Stew. Were you at the Tryal of the five Jesuits Lydcott Yes I was L. H. Stew. Did you hear Dugdale swear there and give his Testimony Lydcott Yes I did L. H. Stew. Do you remember what Dugdale swore then Lydcott Very well L. H. Steward What was it Lydcott My Lords Mr. Dugdale spoke of a Letter that came down to my Lord Aston's on the Munday and he imparted it on the Tuesday after at an Ale-house to one Mr. Sambidge and Mr. Philips This was also at Sir George Wakeman's Tryal which I took notice of more particularly because I had occasion to take some Notes there L. H. Stew. What use do you make of this my Lord L. Stafford If that be allowed to be so then I will call no more Witnesses otherwise I have more L. H. Stew. Call them all Lord Stafford Then call Mr. Charles Gifford Mr. Serj. Mayn Pray my Lords give me leave to ask this young Scholar one Question before he goes By whose commendation or means did you come into that Colledge Lydcott By Election from Eaton Mr. Serj. Mayn Who promoted you Lydcott One Mr. Doyley now Senior Fellow of Kings Colledge it was his Election Sir Fran. Winn. My Lords I would ask him one Question He says he went to take Notes by whose direction did he go to take Notes at Sir George Wakeman's Tryal Lydcott It was for my own curiosity L. H. Stew. Friend 't is all one as if you were upon your Oath and as penal to you by whose direction did you go Lydcott It was partly my own curiosity and partly to see what Evidence was against my Lord for my Lord Castlemain thought himself concerned as
told you of it M. Hanson Old Mr. Sambidge and Mr. Philips the Parson of Tixall L. H. Steward Were they in the House at that time Mr. Hanson Yes L. H. Stew. Were they by when the discourse was Mr. Hanson Mr Sambidge was going to drink a Bottle of Ale as he said at my Lords Bowling Green and for a while he sits down and presently Mr. Philips comes in and sits down and Mr. Dugdale came out of the Parlour into the Room where we were come said I What News said he They say there is a Justice of Peace murdered at Westminster Sir Fr. Winn. Was Philips in the Room Mr. Hanson Yes he hath forgot it but he was there L. H. Steward Did Philips hear it Mr. Hanson He might have heard it if he would L. H. Stew. Had you any discourse with Philips about this since Mr. Hanson No my Lords Sir Fr. VVinn He is positive both as to the day of the month and as to the week and that both of them were present Sir W. Jones My Lords â—e shall prove to you now That the Post which comes out of London on Saturday comes to this place on Munday morning and those which goes out of Tuesday come there on Thursday morning and the Post which goes out of London on Thursday comes to this place on Saturday morning L. Stafford He says the Post comes such and such days I own it and in the morning too Sir Will. Jones Then I go on my Lords to another point which will be a farther Confirmation of the matter For my Lords we will prove to you and that by men of Quality that the noise of the Murder was in that Countrey the Wednesday and Thursday following the Murder Your Lordships please to observe Sir Edmundbury Godfrey was killed the Twelfth of October he was found the Thursday following which was as I take it the 16. or 17. of October We will prove now that the noise and knowledge of the Murder was in the Countrey about Tixal before he was found here near London Now we only bring this as a Confirmation of this matter that it was revealed at the Alehouse and so it went about the Countrey And for this we call Edward Birch Esquire and John Turton Esquire Sir Fr. VVinn Before we examine them I would state the time Sir Edmundbury Godfrey was missing on Saturday which was the 12. of October his Murder was not discovered till Thursday We call these persons to a double purpose the one to fortifie what our Witnesses have said and the other to shew that this man was dispatched by these Mens Confederates because they knew it so soon which could not have been but that they were in the Conspiracy themselves L. Staff I desire only that he may say whether he means me among the rest Sir Fr. Winn. My Lord I will do you no wrong I speak of those at Tixal Then Mr. Birch was sworn L. H. Steward When did you hear of the death of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey Mr. Birch Mr. Birch My Lords I did not hear any thing of the death of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey till the Saturday-Post but I presume that which these Gentlemen call me for is this I did hear before Thursday I think Tuesday was the first day that there was a Justice of Peace of Middlesex killed and it was thought the Papists murdered him and this on Tuesday and Wednesday was all over the Countrey that is Tuesday after his death for I 'll tell your Lordships how I came to take notice of it for hearing such a report in the Countrey I did not so much take notice of it but being at the Kings Bench Bar at the Tryal of Green Berry and Hill for the Murder of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey I found upon the Evidence that the Body was not found till the Thursday after he was killed that made me recollect my self as to what I had heard in the Countrey and as I stood at the Bar I told several Gentlemen that I did perfectly remember before Thursday it was discoursed of in the Countrey by several Gentlemen where I lived Sir Will. Jones Call John Turton Esquire Sir Fr. Winn. Some of my Lords here I perceive desire he should be asked a more particular Question L. H. Steward I desire to ask him this You heard of it you say on Tuesday that a Justice of Peace of Middlesex was killed I desire to know who you heard it from Mr. Birch Truly my Lords I can't tell For I 'll tell your Lordships I have some certain days that I constantly appoint to be at home in when people come about business to me Among these people several came that asked me what news I had from London I told them I had received a Letter or two by the Post and I shewed them those Letters there was little or nothing in them Thereupon they asked me if I did not hear of a Justice of Middlesex that was killed No said I. How come you to hear it says one I come through Cank which is within half a mile of mine own house and as I came through there came a person from Heywood that said 't is all the news about Tixal and Heywood and that part of the Countrey And this was said to me in my own House Sir Fr. Winn. How far is Heywood from Tixal Mr. Birch About a mile Sir Fr. Winn. Now my Lords I would ask Mr. Turton to the fame business Mr. Turton was sworn L. H. Stew. Mr. Turton pray hear When did you first hear in Staffordshire of the death of a Justice of Peace of Middlesex Mr. Turton My Lords there are two Races in that Countrey at a place near Lichfield and they are about the middle of October the one that year was the 15. the other the 18. the one the Tuesday and the other the Friday I was at both of them and one of the days which I cannot be positive in there was one Mr. Whitehall a Justice of Peace in Staffordshire called me from the company and desired to speak with me by my self Said he Do you hear any news No said I. Do you hear nothing said he of a Justice of Peace that is murdered I then had not heard of Sir Edmundbury Godfreys being missing No says he don't you hear he is murdered Do you know him Yes said I how do you hear it says he 't is a report about us but I did not then believe it but the next Post-day which was Munday I did hear it it was either Tuesday or Friday one of those days Sir Will. Jones If it were either one or 'tother 't is as strange and the Evidence as strong for his Body was not found till Thursday Sir Fr. VVin. And will your Lordships please to observe that by that time the report had got the name of Godfrey too when at that same time we in London did not know what was become of him Mr. Turton He asked me if I knew Sir Edmundbury
whether I should be sworn or no for your Lordship shall not make me be sworn unless my Lords say I should L. H. Stew. I would not offer it if there were any colour of doubt in it Then my Lord was sworn E. of Maclesfeld My Lords I have nothing to say against this man but what he said to me and before a Justice of Peace too for I did take this man when he had run away from my Lord Gerard. He had cheated many of his Servants I catched him on the way running to play his tricks somewhere else and I intercepted him but though I was a Justice of Peace there yet because it was in a manner my own case I would not commit him till I had carried him before another Justice of Peace So the man comes up to me says he My Lord have you a mind to have your Son-in-law bubbled I have been only teaching him how to avoid being cheated I acknowledge my self to be a Cheat and I would teach him to avoid them I am going now into Staffordshire and that was all I intended to his Lordship I am a Rogue I confess it And upon this a Justice of Peace comes in and while they were examining of him we bid some that were by to search him and they found in his pocket false Dice and truly the Justice nor I did not know whether they were true or false Says he You don't know what to do with these but I do This is all I can say but in all the three Counties of Staffordshire Cheshire and Lancashire there are several men that I see here that know his Life better than I do for 't is his common practice and I believe my Lords the Judges must know him for it was his common practice at all Assizes and great Meetings to play these pranks Sir Will. Jones My Lords we will not trouble your Lordships any further as to Robinson if he were here perhaps my Lady would know him but having two such Witnesses I think we need not trouble our selves nor you any more about him L. H. Stew. Have you done with my Lady Gerard Sir Will. Jones Yes and we beg her pardon for this trouble My Lords your Lordships will be pleased to remember there was one Holt was produced as a Witness by my Lord Stafford and your Lordships when you look on your Notes will remember he testified to this purpose That Dugdale sent an Horse for him to Stafford-Town which Horse brought him to the Star-Inne and there Dugdale did offer him Forty pounds to swear That one Mr. Moor carried away Evers the Jesuit My Lords we will call some Witnesses to this Mr. Holt you will find him to be something akin to Mr. Robinson and as we suppose of nothing a better Reputation than he The Witnesses will give you an account of his pranks Call Sampson Rawlins and Lander Rawlins stood up and was sworn L. H. Stew. What is your Name VVitness Sampson Rawlins L. H. Stew. What do you ask him Sir William Jones We desire to ask him if he knows Samuel Holt the Black-smith L. H. Stew. Do you know Holt Rawlins Yes Sir Fr. Winn. Acquaint my Lords what Reputation he is of where he lives and what he is Rawlins He is counted to be a very lewd loose fellow L. H. Stew. Why so Sir Will. Jones What hath he done Rawlins He is counted a drunken lewd fellow Sir Will. Jones Is he of an ill Reputation in the Countrey where he lives Rawlins Yes he is so L. H. Stew. For what Rawlins 'T is said in the Town he keeps another mans wife Sir Will. Jones Is there any other fault he hath Rawlins He said there were none but Rogues would take Mr. Dugdale's part whereas I never knew any harm by Mr. Dugdale and I have known him this fourteen or fifteen years I dealt with him I was Taylor to the Family and he ever paid me very honestly and well Sir VV. Jones Have you heard of Mr. Holt any other ill thing besides what you speak of Rawlins He broke open my Lord Aston's Wine-celler and stole several bottles of Wine wherefore my Lord Aston bid Mr. Dugdale send him to the Goal but he curryed favour with Mr. Dugdale and so kept in with him that he afterwards begged for him of my Lord to forgive him And now he comes to Evidence against Mr. Dugdale that was his sure stedfast friend and saved him from the Goal L. Stafford I would ask this Witness a Question Rawlins And because I took Mr. Dugdale's part saying he was an honest man and he was so to me and all others as far as ever I heard he met me and would have murdered me L. H. Steward When was this Rawlins Since last Term when I was up here And likewise Sawyer took a pot and would have dong'd my brains out Sir Fr. Winn. My Lords I think this man was summoned as a Witness to attend at my Lord Aston's Tryal What occasion brought you to London at that time Rawlins I was subpoena'd up And when I came home to my Wife and Children they grosly abused me and said I was a Rogue because I came up upon His Majesties Service L. Stafford Pray my Lords ask him whether Holt was my Lord Aston's Servant or no. L. H. Stew. Was Holt a Servant to my Lord Aston Rawlins He was a Smith hard by his Gate and he worked to the Family L. H. Stew. Were you subpoena'd up to the Tryal of my Lord Aston Rawlins Yes L. H. Steward And it was for coming to that Tryal he offered to murder you Rawlins Yes I have several Witnesses of it And by the blow that Thomas Sawyer gave me for a good while I could not lay my head on the Pillow Sir Will. Jones Call Thomas Launder but he did not appear being gone away sick Sir Will. Jones Because we would not lose your Lordships time seeing the man we call for is gone away sick we will call a Witness as to another of my Lords Witnesses John Morral Call Thomas Thorne Who was sworn Sir Fran. Winn. My Lords if that other man come by and by we hope your Lordships will give us leave to ask him a Question to the point which we are now gone over But my Lord Stafford did produce one John Morral a Barber that lived at Ridgley who said that money was offered him to swear against Sir James Symons and Mr. Howard and others We call this Witness to give your Lordships an account what this Morral is and how he hath behaved himself in this business Sir W. Jones What do you say about John Morral Do you know him Thorne Yes L. H. Stew. What do you know of him Thorne I know he is a man that use to come often to my Lord Aston's to Tixal to trim him he is a poor fellow that walks up and down the Country and hath little or nothing to live on L. H. Stew. Is he poor and needy
come over to make any discovery did burn a great many Letters and Papers that did relate to those proceedings and did not leave any thing remaining hoping thereby to prevent a discovery We will call Witnesses that were by when it was done and I think that will be some answer to this objection Call Elizabeth Eld and Anne Eld. Elizabeth Eld sworn Sir Fr. VVinn My Lords if your Lordships please we would ask her this general Question What she knows of Mr. Dugdale's burning a great many Letters and Papers at what place and about what time Elizabeth Eld. I cannot possibly say to the time I burnt some Writings for him when he went away he desired me to burn them he did not tell me what Writings they were He said the times were troublesome and if he should be sick upon the Road where he was going he would not have all his Papers seen but he desired me to burn them And I took and burnt them all but one Book and my Sister asked if that Book should be burnt he said no there was nothing of Treason in it I asked him if there were any thing of Treason in the others and he said Do you think there was Sir VV. Jones How long was this before he went away Elizabeth Eld. That morning when he went away Sir W. Jones How many Papers were there Elizabeth Eld. I cannot say how many Sir Will. Jones I do not ask you the number but the quantity was there a bushel Elizabeth Eld. I cannot say they were roll'd up and put in his Pockets and his Breeches L. H. Steward Were they Parchments or Papers Elizabeth Eld. They were Papers L. H. Steward Were they Letters Elizabeth Eld. I did not see what they were but they were wrapt up together they might be the Accompts of the House for what I know Sir Fr. Winn. But she says as I take it that Mr. Dugdale said there was Treason in them Elizabeth Eld. No he said Did I think there was He said it was no matter for burning that little Book there was no Treason in that and when I asked him if there was any in the others he said Do you think there was L. H. Steward Was it one or two bundles Elizabeth Eld. There were several bundles they were not tyed up but taken in handfuls and thrown into the fire Mr. Foley If my Lord Stafford will ask her no Question we will call up another Elizabeth Eld. My Lords I did see Mr. Dugdale take a glass of Cyder and I heard him say and wish it might be his Damnation and he might sink in the place where he stood if he knew any thing of the Plot. Sir W. Jones I pray what Religion are you of I don't ask you to disparage you Elizabeth Eld. A Roman Catholick L. H. Steward When was it that he said that Elizabeth Eld. When he was in Staffordshire Anne Eld was then sworn Mr. Foley Tell my Lords what you know of any Papers that were burnt by Mr. Dugdale or by his direction and at what time Anne Eld. Mr. Dugdale came to my Fathers house over night and the next morning before he went away he brought a great many Papers he had in his Breeches and in his Pockets bundled together and he desired us to burn them in the flame of a Candle L. H. Stew. Why did he desire you to burn them Anne Eld. He said the times were troublesome and being to travel he was to go to diverse places and if he were taken people would think him a Plotter having all those Papers about him L. H. Stew. Did he burn the Book at that time Anne Eld. No. L. H. Stew. Why not Anne Eld. I found that Book and asked him if that should be burnt he said no' lay that by it may do good seven years hence there is no Treason in it says my Sister to him Is there any Treason in the rest says he Do you think there is that was all Sir Will. Jones Not to trouble you longer my Lords upon this your Lordships will be pleased to remember yesterday my Lord Stafford was pleased to offer by way of Evidence as if Mr. Dugdale was a man of an ill Reputation in these particulars That he had defrauded my Lord Aston that he was a mean man run in arrear to my Lord and that being in necessity he became a fit instrument to give false Evidence We shall shew That Mr. Dugdale was a man of Estate that both before and since he came away from my Lord Aston he hath made it his business to desire my Lord to come to Accompt that he hath pressed him and that he does believe and hath reason so to believe that there is Money coming from my Lord Aston to him and that a considerable sum Now my Lords if we shall make it appear that he hath made it his business to come to Accompt with my Lord I hope it will not be supposed that he is afraid of it or so needy or so mean For this we call Michael Noble and Stephen Colledge Michael Noble sworn Sir John Trevor What do you know of Mr. Dugdale and my Lord Aston Mr. Noble My Lords I can say little or nothing as to Mr. Dugdale for that I have never been acquainted with him but since the Plot and he came to be an Evidence but Mr. Dugdale desired me to assist him as much as I could to make up his Accompts with my Lord Aston And we were twice at the Tower one time we spoke with my Lord with great difficulty another time we could not see him There were three Books of Accompt two my Lord would let us see but the third wherein all the Discharges were as Mr. Dugdale said he would never let us see that is all I can say Then Stephen Colledge was sworn L. H. Stew. What is your Name Witness Stephen Colledge Sir Will. Jones Declare to my Lords what you know concerning Mr. Dugdale's pressing my Lord Aston to accompt with him Mr. Colledge In January last I went along with Mr. Dugdale at his request to the Tower with one Mr. Noble a Barrester of the Temple and one Mr. Boson of Lyons-Inn in order to the making up Accompts between Mr. Dugdale and my Lord Aston for he told me he was going thither for that end When we came thither we met with one Captain Hawley who belongs to the Lieutenant of the Tower and we desired him to go to my Lord Aston and tell him Mr. Dugdale was there in order to make up his Accompts with him He went and brings an answer back again That my Lord was not at leisure to speak with Mr. Dugdale then nor none of us from him And Mr. Hawley said he was then going up with the Lords to Nine-pins Mr. Dugdale faid he was very ill used for he had been several times there before and he could not be admitted to speak with him He hath a little Book says he meaning my Lord wherein
there is an Accompt made up under his own hand of almost Two or Three hundred Pounds which sum I cannot say but one of them I am certain of which he hath denyed several times that he had it but I can prove that he hath it if he will be pleased to produce that Book we need not be a quarter of an hour in making up the Accompt He did speak of some other sums he had to place to Accompt too but so much was made up already But Captain Hawley saying he would not speak with him nor any of us from him I did take the liberty to say to Captain Hawley That it was hard his Lordship and his party should abuse Mr. Dugdale at that rate to make him his Debtor for now I understood by what Mr. Dugdale said my Lord was his Debtor And said I if I can perswade Mr. Dugdale he shall publish his Case for the Protestant Interest suffered by it That he should be made a Debtor to my Lord when he was not so And I believe Capt. Hawley told my Lord Aston what I did say for when he came back again from my Lord Aston he said my Lord did acknowledge he had that Book and it was ready to be produced but he would stay till a Councellor of his came out of the Country and till he had spoke with the Lieutenant for he would not speak with Mr. Dugdale unless the Lieutenant were by and in three or four days time he would send for him but I never heard that he sent for him ever since If it please your Lordships I have one thing more that I remember There was a young man that belonged to my Lord Aston's Family that heard Mr. Dugdale was at Captain Hawley's Chamber and came to see him and paid a very great respect to him and would stand bare to him though Mr. Dugdale desired him to put on his Hat several times Some of us asked him whether Mr. Dugdale was thought to be such a Knave when he lived with his Lord as they would have made him since No said he Mr. Dugdale was as honest a Gentleman as ever lived in our Family I remember my Lord Aston's man said this to us then L. Stafford My Lords Will you be pleased to give me leave if I speak impertinently I am under your correction I conceive I shall have something to answer this but I would first know whether I may desire of your Lordships that I may have my Lord Aston here to give an account of this matter Sir Will. Jones If he were here he could not be heard being a person accused for the same offence L. H. Stew. My Lord he stands Indicted for the same Treason and cannot be a Witness L. Stafford I beg your pardon my Lord. Nicholas Boson was sworn L. H. Stew. What is your Name Witness Nicholas Boson Sir VV. Jones Declare to my Lords what you know concerning Mr. Dugdale's pressing my Lord Aston to come to an accompt Mr. Boson In January last I met with Mr. Dugdale and one Mr. Noble and one Mr. Colledge And Mr. Dugdale desired us to go down with him to the Tower He said he had an Order of the Council to pass his Accompts with my Lord Aston and when we came there we enquired for Captain Hawley and desired him that he would acquaint my Lord Aston that he was there to accompt with him Captain Hawley went up to my Lord Aston and brought word back again my Lord was not at leisure or would not speak with him or to that effect whereupon Mr. Dugdale said it was very hard that he should be aspersed to owe my Lord Mony and he would not come to accompt with him For my Lord Aston had a Book or Books in his custody which he would stand by and they would determine the business between them that my Lord Aston was almost Two hundred pounds in his debt And pray says he Captain Hawley do me the favour to go to my Lord Aston again and desire him that he will be pleased to produce that Book or Books If I owe my Lord any money I am ready to pay him and if he owe me any I hope his Lordship will do the like by me as I am sure he does Two hundred Pounds Captain Hawley went away and brought this Answer That his Lordship would send for him in some short time assoon as a Coâ—nellor did come out of the Country whom he had entrusted with his Books and that was one Birch as near as I remember Sir Will. Jones We have done with this Witness And because we desire to conclude as to Mr. Dugdale we shall call some persons of Quality as to his Reputation my Lord having gone about to make him a man of no Reputation Mr. Boson I can speak too about the Boy that came in Sir VV. Jones There is no need of that now we shall trouble you no further Sir Your Lordships will be pleased to observe That Mr. Philips the Minister that was one of my Lord Stafford's Witnesses did say Mr. Dugdale was a man of whome many spoke well and some indifferently and perhaps that is the case of most good men for scarce any are so good that all speak well of them but that many should speak well and some indifferently of him may be the lot of a very good man We shall call some Witnesses and begin with Mr. VVhitby a Justice of the Peace that will tell you he hath known Mr. Dugdale long and what Reputation he is of Thomas Whitby Esq sworn Sir John Trevor My Lords We desire your Lordships would be pleased to ask him what Reputation and credit Mr. Dugdale was in in my Lord Aston's Service Mr. VVhitby My Lords I have known Mr. Dugdale to be a Servant to my Lord Aston this nine or ten years he was Steward to him and there was no other person between my Lord and him he received my Lords Rents and Debts for him exchanged his Lands for him in forty places I exchanged some Land with my Lord my self and he was the man that did it He was very hard for my Lords advantage and did what he could for my Lords profit Sir John Trevor What do you know more as to his dealing Mr. VVhitby He was a person that was next to my Lord and did rule and govern the rest of the Family All the Servants were under him Sir John Trevor Was he looked upon to be an honest man in his dealings Mr. VVhitby As to what I had to deal with him he was an honest man I never heard the contrary I have heard some Tradesmen complain that he hath put them off without Money would not pay them what my Lord owed them L. Stafford I desire that Mr. VVhitby may be here when I shall have occasion to say something to him Sir VV. Jones That will be I hope by and by for we have almost done Call Mr. VVilliam Southall VVho was sworn L.
H. Stew. What is your Name VVitness VVilliam Southall Mr. Foley Give my Lords an account how long you have known Dugdale and what you know of him Mr. Southall My Lords I have known Mr. Stephen Dugdale about eight years Mr. Foley How hath he behaved himself What Reputation hath he born Mr. Southall Truly he hath always had a good repute not only with my Lords Tenants but also with the Workmen and those people that had dependance on the Family and truly I never heard any ill report of him but only what is spoken of now of late Sir Fr. VVinn Were you very well acquainted with him Mr. Southall Yes but never had any business with him Several discourses I have had with him about the Popish Religion Sir John Trevor My Lords I only observe this This Gentleman is Coroner of the County and hath a general knowledge of the County and must know most men there Sir Fran. VVinnington You are Coroner of the County of Stafford Sir I think Mr. Southall Yes I am one of them Mr. Foley What was he in my Lords House Mr. Southall Bailiff and a kind of Governour providing meat and paying Workmen most of the things of the Family went through his hands Sir Fran. Winn. My Lords This Gentleman is a Coroner of the County and can speak materially to other particulars besides this of Dugdale's Reputation for he was a person who was present when he made his first discovery of this Plot and was very instrumental in prevailing with him to do it He will give your Lordships an account of the whole business and I would rather he himself should relate all the progress of it than take upon me to recite any of the passages Mr. Southall There was the latter end of November 78. a Report that Mr. Dugdale was gone away from my Lord Aston's suddenly and strangely and it was the common report in the Country that he was in the Plot and was fled for it In the beginning of December I went through a Town called Great Heywood a Mile and a half from Tixal where my Lord Aston and Mr. Dugdale dwelt I called at Mr. Thomas Whitby's House the Gentleman that was up here lately and he was telling me Dugdale was come again and apprehended by the Watch at Heywood upon suspicion He told me further he would make no confession of the Plot though he had been under Examination before Sir VValter Bagott Mr. Kinnersley and I think he said Sir Thomas VVhitgrave But he told me divers passages by which we both suspected he might be concerned and know of the Plot. We thought so from the various reports and rumors we had heard in the Country and from those great grounds of suspicion that were given us As I returned from Heywood I resolved I would speak with Dugdale the first opportunity for I had a strong perswasion I could prevail with him to make a discovery of the Plot but before I did speak with him there was one Goldsmith my Kinsman had some difference fallen out between him and Mr. Ansell and Mr. Dugdale touching a Deed the deciding of which they had referred to Mr. Dugdale And he desired me to go to Mr. Dugdale to Stafford with him I was very glad of the opportunity Ansel was to bring one Hanson Mr. Goldsmith was to bring me and Mr. Dugdale was to bring one Mr. Gerrard that was concerned in the Premortgage that we might all have discourse together I promised to meet them at the time appointed and accordingly the 23 th of December two days before Christmas-day I came to the place in Stafford where Dugdale was about Ten a Clock in the Morning where they met according to their promise We had not been in the House longer than a quarter of an hour but the Kings business which I thought was a business of greater weight than any particular business did stick much upon me and I resolved before I spoke to the particular business about which we all met I would first speak to Mr. Dugdale to put that in execution which I had resolved After a short space of time I desired Mr. Dugdale that I might speak with him in a Chamber privately between him and me he told me if I would go into the next Chamber to his he would come to me Accordingly I went and staid a short space of time and Mr. Dugdale came to me I desired him to make the Door to which he did and I began thus with him Mr. Dugdale â—â—id I for some Years last past since I came to be acquainted with you I have always had a good esteem of you and you a good report in the Country where you live and now there is an opportunity put into your hands to serve his Majesty and his Protestant Subjects if as an honest man ought you will discharge your Duty Mr. Dugdale replyed Sir what do you mean Why said I I mean this in a few words Here is a Plot discovered in London and if it be in London I conceive it hath been in part acted at Tixal and if there of necessity you having such a Government and Rule over that House it is impossible but you must know it He looked upon me very earnestly and gave me a smile but answered me not I replied to him again thus said I There is a natural Allegiance which every Subject owes to his Soveraign and by that it is required that if any Subjects know of any Plot or any Conspiracy against his Person and Government they ought in Conscience to discover it therefore Mr. Dugdale said I discharge a good Conscience and tell what you know for it is commonly suspected you are concerned in the Plot. He answered I have taken the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy When and where said I Before his Majesties Justices of the Peace at Stafford said he Then said I there is not only that natural Allegiance which every Subject owes to his Prince but the Oath of Almighty God lies upon your Conscience therefore discharge a good Conscience and tell your knowledge He stood pausing a little while and by and by said he If I should make any discovery how should I be secured of my Life You need not Question that said I nor his Majesties Gracious Pardon which he hath promised in his Proclamation Have you seen the Proclamation Yes said he Said I you have but a short time a day or two to discover in for this is the 23 th and as I do conceive you ought to discover before the 25 th he stood pausing a while about the time said I you need not question his Majesties Gracious Promise and to incourage you thereto there is not only an assurance of Pardon but a promise of Reward of Two hundred pounds Said he if I do discover any thing of my knowledge I matter not nor desire I don't know which it was his Majesties Money so I may be secured of my Life Upon this my Lords said I
I do not think we shall need to trouble your Lordships more with this matter that my Lord was lame sometime he is pleased to confess One Witness says that he put his Foot on a Cushion my Lord does not acknowledge that L. Stafford I was never lame at Paris Sir VVill. Jones That a man that is lame does sometimes ease his Foot is no hard Consequence I think L. Stafford I deny I was lame then I walked about the streets of Paris I desire I may not be misunderstood Sir VVill. Jones I must then desire under his Lordships favour if he will not acknowledge it to be within seven years that we may prove it and falsifie his Witness the Page L. Stafford I have gone with a stick to the House I acknowledge it and been lame with weariness Sir Fr. VVinn The Objection went to the Credit of our Witness and therefore we desire to answer it my Lord was not lame as he says for so many years but if we prove that within less time my Lord hath been lame it will take off that Objection from our Witness And we desire a Noble Lord or two of this House may testifie what they know And first the Earl of Stamford who was sworn Earl of Stamford My Lords I think I have not had the honour to sit in this House much above seven years but long since that time I have seen my Lord Stafford come lame into the House of Peers and that is all I can say L. Stafford I have come lame with a stick to the House I say Sir Fr. Winn. My Lords we desire that Noble Lord my Lord Lovelace may be sworn which was done Lord Lovelace My Lords the Account that I can give your Lordships is this I cannot ascertain any time but I am sure and I do declare it upon my Honour and the Oath I have taken that I have seen my Lord Stafford lame in the House of Lords within less than this seven years L. Stafford If he goes home to the Tower he may see me lame but never put my Foot upon a stool Sir Will. Jones My Lords your Lordships will be pleased to remember we did call a Witness one Thomas Launder and the account we had of him was he was gone sick from the Bar he was very sick indeed but being just now brought we desire he may be heard though it be out of time we call him to the Reputation of Holt. Thomas Launder was sworn Sir John Trevor Do you declare to my Lords whether you know Samuel Holt Launder Yes my Lords I do L. H. Steward What do you know of him Launder He is a Smith my Lords L. H. Steward What Reputation is he of Launder Indifferent my Lords Sir William Jones What do you mean by that good or bad speak plainly Launder A Drunken Sot a man that will Drink and Rant and Tear the Ground and sing two or three days or a week together and lose his time Sir Fr. Winn. I would ask this man whether he was summoned as a Witness upon any Tryal in relation to the Plot L. H. Stew. Were you ever summon'd as a Witness about the Plot Launder My Lords I was summon'd concerning my Lord Aston's Tryal and I came up with my Lord Aston's people as an Evidence Sir W. Jones Had you any offer of money and what sum Launder Yes my Lords Sir Fr. Winn. Acquaint my Lords with it L. H. Stew. Who offered it you and when and for what Sir Will. Jones For what was that money offered you Launder The money was not absolutely offered me but I was to have an Horse to ride on and money in my Pocket if I could take off James Ansel Dugdale's Evidence L. H. Stew. Who came and offered it to you Launder I was sent for by Mr. Fox to Tixal Hall and there was my old Lords Brother for one and Mr. Thomas Aston that is this young Lords Brother and Mr. Francis Aston who is my Lords eldest Son were in a Room together and this Thomas Sawyer that was here and more were in the Room when they promised all these things L. H. Steward If you would do what Launder If I would take my Oath that this James Ansell was a Perjured Rogue L. H. Stew. Did all they make you this promise Launder Yes my Lords Mr. Fotey It was a Consult together about taking off the Evidence Sir Will Jones My Lords we have done with our Witnesses if my Lord Stafford please to conclude we are ready to do so too L. Stafford What should I conclude about those Witnesses you have now brought in Sir W. Jones Your Lordship may please to conclude your Evidence we are ready to conclude on our part L. Stafford These new Witnesses must I say what I can say against them presently I cannot do it I know very few of them L. H. Steward Have you any Witnesses here my Lord L. Stafford I cannot possibly have any For I did not know nor guess these people would be brought against me They are persons I know nothing of Ansell I have seen four or five times I may have seen the rest but I do not know them to be able to give an accompt of them L. H. Stew. If you have any Witnesses here to support the credit of your own Witnesses that have been impeached you may call them L. Stafford I have none my Lords L. H. Stew. Will your Lordship recapitulate the material parts of your Defence that the Process may be closed L. Stafford I am very unready for it my Lords Let me ask Mr. VVhitby a Question if I must have no more time Mr. Whitby stood up L. H. Stew. There he is what would your Lordship have with him L. Stafford I do not know the Gentleman Mr. VVhitby Nor I your Lordship Lord Stafford I ask him upon the Oath he hath taken I know he will speak truth whether he did not some years ago tell my Lord Aston that is dead this Lord's Father That Dugdale was a Knave and persuaded him to turn him away I say not it is true but I have heard so and desired him to tell his Son so that he might quit himself of him L. H. Steward What say you Mr. VVhitby Mr. VVhitby My Lords about three or four years ago my Lord Aston that is dead I believe it may be two years last April sent for me to dine with him and when I came thither he told me says he Mr. VVhitby I have sent to you to acquaint you with a thing but I do not believe it before I tell it you What is it said I said he Stephen Dugdale hath acquainted me that you have employed persons upon the Water to destroy my Water said I my Lord I never endeavoured it he said he did believe me then I told my Lord said I Mr. Dugdale is a dishonour to the Family upon this accompt because many times people come for money and he will not let them have it
I hope your Lordships will not alter the form for I hope you will keep that great Maxim of your Noble Ancestors Nolumus Leges Angliae mutare and whether this be a Change of the Law or no I submit it to your Lordships A third thing is this Your Lordships do not think fit that my Counsel shall plead to that Point whether Words do amount to an Overt Act for hearing my Counsel to that likewise I do not pretend but I hope your Lordships will give me leave to say this I never heard that Words did amount to an Overt Act if your Lordships judge otherwise I submit but till then I hope it shall not conclude me There were some other Points which I did offer to your Lordships and I humbly beseech you to know whether my Counsel shall be heard to them 't is true one of them which was whether two Witnesses in several places did amount to a legal Testimony or no your Lordships did not declare one way or another If you say you acquiesce in the Opinion of the Judges I must submit but till Judgment is given I beseech your Lordships to give me leave to tell you my weak thoughts about it I did not hear what the Judges said all of them but as I apprehend they were all of one Opinion 'T is true one of them that spoke last I think it was Judge Atkins did say it did amount to a legal Testimony because else those Juries that have found some Guilty upon the same sort of Evidence should be perjured but if this were not so then upon the same grounds under your Lordships favour those Juries that acquitted some upon such Testimony were perjured but I must believe it to be otherwise till your Lordships have declared it as your Opinion for that reason will not hold for the same reason will be for the perjuring the one as for the perjuring the other And the same Juries for the most part tryed those that were found guilty and those that were acquitted Lord High Steward Is this all your Lordship will please to say Lord Stafford No my Lords if you would give me leave I would trouble you a little farther if it were an Offence I would not say a word My Lords I do conceive I am not concerned in the general Plot of the Papists for I am not proved to be so and whatsoever I may be in my self as I conceive or whatsoever there is of hearsay I hope your Lordships will not go upon that but upon what is proved Secundum allegata probata and that common Fame will condemn no man if it do then no man is safe but I must say there is not one word of proof offered that I am a Papist I hope my Lords I have cleared my self to your Lordships and made my Innocency appear by making appear the perjury of the Witnesses and the falshood of those things they said against me Against Dugdale I have proved it by two of his own Witnesses the one was Eld the woman that swore for him That he took up a Glass of Cyder and wished that it might be his Poyson if he knew any thing of the Plot the other was Whitby who says he had given my Lord Aston's Father warning long ago what a Knave he was So 't is clear for Dr. Oats I hope from his Contradictions against himself as well as Dugdale who does contradict himself at one time August at another time the latter end of August or the beginning of September And I hope your Lordships will give no credit to Oats's Testimony for he said before your Lordships he had declared all he knew 't is true I was then accused but not for having a Commission as he now swears and afterwards he accused the Queen so here is Oats against Oats and Dugdale against Dugdale and for Turbervill I have proved by his Affidavit first he swears one thing and then another and the truth of it is his Brother proved him false in his last Oath that it was 7â— and not 72. My Lords 'T is not my part to make any Question nor do I whether a Plot or no Plot for I am not concerned in it If what I shall say now be impertinent I humbly beg your Lordships pardon My Lords I have been by the most of my Friends at least every one that came to me particularly by my Wife and Daughter that is near me persuaded to tell all that I knew and I do here in the presence of Almighty God declare what I know to be true Lord High Steward What says my Lord Speak out Lord Stafford My Lords I do believe since the Reformation from the Church of Rome to what it is now Established the Church of England those of that Religion have had several wicked and ill Designs and Plots I do believe they had a Design in Queen Elizabeth's time Babbington's Plot that is a long time ago how far it was to take away the Queens Life I can't tell but a Plot it was I do believe there was another in her time called Earl of Westmorland's Plot wherein there was a Rebeâ—â—ion in the North for which some fled and some were Executed that was a very ill design As for those poysonings of her Saddle and the like I take them to be but stories In King James's time in the first year of his Reign there was a wicked Plot composed by Actors some of one Religion some of another there was my Lord Grey my Lord Cobham my Lord Brooke and others such they were condemned all of them some fled as Markham and Bainham those Lords and Sir Walter Rawleigh were Reprived and kept long in the Tower But Sir Walter Rawleigh was afterwards upon that same Judgment Beheaded and the Lords dyed in the Tower My Lords Next to that was the Execrable Treason that I spoke of at first the Gun-powder-Treason And I protest before Almighty God I did from my Infancy detest and abhor those men that were engaged in it and I do think and always did think the Wit of Man nor the Devils Malice can't invent an Excuse for it For the men concerned they all acknowledged it confessed it and beg'd pardon of the King and God and all good men for it that is all I shall say to that now My Lords Since his Majesties happy Restauration I do conceive and I think I may safely say it for you all know it he was gracious and good to all Dissentersd particularly to them of the Romish Church they had Connivance and Indulgence in their private Houses and I declare to your Lordships I did then say to some that were too open in their Worship that they did play foul in taking more Liberty upon them than was fitting for them too and that brought the misfortune upon me which I will not name My Lordâ— it was not long ago that your Lordships at your own Bar did allow all the Dissenters from the Church of England
THE TRYAL OF WILLIAM VISCOUNT STAFFORD FOR HIGH TREASON In Conspiring the Death of the KING The Extirpation of the PROTESTANT RELIGION The Subversion of the GOVERNMENT and Introduction of POPERY into this Realm Upon an IMPEACHMENT BY THE Knights Citizens and Burgesses in Parliament assembled In the Name of Themselves and of All the COMMONS OF ENGLAND Begun in Westminster-Hall the 30. day of November 1680. and continued until the 7. of December following on which day Judgment of High Treason was given upon him With the Manner of his Execution the 29. of the same Month. Dublin Reprinted by Jos Ray at College-Green and are to be sold by S. Helsham Job North Jos Howes and the rest of the Booksellers of Dublin 1681. The TRYAL of William Viscount Stafford Begun in Westminster-Hall November 30. 1680. The First Day WIlliam Earl of Powis William Viscount Stafford Henry Lord Arundel of Wardour William Lord Petre and John Lord Bellasis having been formerly impeached in the House of Lords of High Treason and other high Crimes and Offences by the House of Commons in the Name of Themselves and of all the Commons of England And the House of Commons having sent a Message to the Lords to acquaint them with the Resolution of that House to proceed to the Tryal of those Lords then in the Tower and forthwith to begin with the said Viscount Stafford and to desire their Lordships to appoint a convenient day for the Tryal of the said Viscount Stafford their Lordships did thereupon appoint the 30. day of November 1680. for his Trial And a place in Westminster-Hall having been for that purpose erected the same was as followeth viz. Therein were both Seats and Wool-packs correspondent in all points to those in the House of Lords as also a State placed at the upper end thereof with a Cabinet for the King and whom His Majesty should think fit to attend him there on the right hand the State and the like on the left hand for the Queen and her Followers As also Galleries over head for Ambassadors and others And to the end that the Commons might be fitted with Seats upon this great occasion there were erected for them on each side divers Benches on several degrees extending to the utmost Walls of the Hall At the lower end the Bar whereunto the Prisoners were to be brought being placed on the right hand thereof was a place raised about five Foot wherein the Witnesses were to stand and on the left hand a convenient Room for those particular Members of the House of Commons which were to manage the Evidence And the Right Honourable Heneage Lord Finch Baron of Daventry Lord High Chancellor of England being by His Majesties Special Letters Patent bearing date the 30. of November 1680. Constituted Lord High Steward for that present occasion upon Tuesday the said 30. of November the Lord High Steward was honorably attended from his House in Queen-street by all the Judges of His Majesties Courts in Westminster-Hall in their Robes as also by Garter Principal King of Arms in His Majesties Coat of Arms and the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod unto whom His Majesty had the day before delivered the White Wand to be carried before his Lordship and about nine of the clock in the morning set forwards in his Coach towards Westminster sitting at the hinder end thereof Garter and the Gentleman who bore the Great Seal sitting both uncovered at the other end one of the Setjeants at Arms with his Mace being placed on the right side the Coach and the Usher of the Black Rod carrying the VVhite VVand on the left side the Judges and his Lordships Gentlemen in several Coaches following after Being thus come to the Stairs-foot ascending to the House of Peers the Judges went up two and two together the Juniors first next the Lord High Steward's Gentlemen after them the Serjeant at Arms with his Mace and the Seal bearer and lastly the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod bearing the VVhite VVand Garter principal King of Arms going on his right hand Then his Lordship alone his Train born by one of his Gentlemen in this manner entring the House of Peers he found all the Lords in their Scarlet Robes also the Bishops in their Rochets and took his place upon the uppermost Woolsack This done and Prayers ended his Commission for Lord High Steward was read And then the Bishops receded and the Lords Adjourned themselves into the new erected a Court in VVestminster-Hall All things being thus in readiness and a large Door-place broken through the upper end of VVestminster-Hall into that Room which was heretofore the Court of VVards Their Lordships passed from their House first into the Painted Chamber then through that called the Court of Requests Thence turning on the left hand into that called the Court of VVards then entred at the Door so broke down as aforesaid into VVestminster Hall and passed through a long Gallery placed between the King's Bench and Chancery Courts into this New erected Court in VVestminster-Hall and proceeded after this manner viz. First the Assistants to the Clerk of the Parliament Then the Clerk of the Crown in Chancery and Clerk of the Parliament after them the Masters in Chancery two and two and the King's Attorney General alone Then the Judges of all Courts in VVestminster-Hall by two and two Next to them Noblemens Eldest Sons After them Four Serjeants at Arms bearing their Maces Next the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod. Then all the Noble Men according to their respective Degrees the Juniors first viz. Barons Viscounts Earls Great Officer viz. Lord Chamberlain of the Houshould Marquesses Dukes Great Officers Lord Privy Seal Great Officers Lord President of the Council Then Four more Serjeants at Arms bearing their Maces After them the Gentleman carrying the Great Seal Then one of His Majesties Gentlemen Ushers daily-waiters carrying the White Wand Garter Principal King of Arms going on his right Hand Then the Lord High Steward alone having his Train born and after him his Highness Rupert Duke of Cumberland a Prince of the Blood This done and the whole House of Peers having taken their Places according to their Degrees the Commons being also Seated on each side and the Managers in the Room appointed for them the Commons being all bare The Lord High Steward after obeysance made towards the State took his place upon the uppermost Wool-sack and thereupon receiving the VVhite VVand from Garter and the Gentleman Usher upon their Knees delivered it to the Usher of the Black Rod who held it during the time of Sitting there Having so done his Lordship said Cryer make Proclamation of Silence Then the Cryer a Serjeant at Arms made Proclamation thus All manner of Persons are straitly commanded to keep Silence upon pain of Imprisonment God save the King Lord High Steward Make Proclamation for the Lieutenant of the Tower to bring the Prisoner to the Bar. Cryer Oyes Oyes Oyes Lieutenant
Forreign Forces and to surprize seize and destroy His Majesties Navy Forts Magazines and places of strength within this Kingdom whereupon the Calamities of War Murders of Innocent Subjects Men Women and Children Burnings Rapines Devastations and other dreadful Miseries and Mischiefs must inevitably have ensued to the ruine and destruction of this Nation 5. And the said Conspirators have procured and accepted and delivered out several Instruments Commissions and Powers made and granted by or under the Pope or other Vnlawful and Vsurped Authority to raise and dispose of Men Moneys Arms and other things necessary for their wicked and traiterous Designs and namely a Commission for the said Henry Lord Arundel of Wardour to be Lord Chancellor of England another Commission to the said William Earl of Powis to be Lord Treasurer of England another Commission to the said John Lord Bellasis to be General of the Army to be raised another Commission to the said William Lord Petre to be Lieutenant General of the same Army and a Power for the said William Viscount Stafford to be Paymaster of the Army 6. That in order to encourage themselves in Prosecuting their said wicked Plots Conspiracies and Treasons and to hide and hinder the Discovery of the same and to secure themselves from Justice and Punishment the Conspirators aforesaid their Complices and Confederates have used many wicked and diabolical Practices viz. They did cause their Priests to Administer to the said Conspirators an Oath of Secrecy together with their Sacrament and also did cause their said Priests upon Confessions to give their Absolutions upon Condition that they should conceal the said Conspiracy And when about the Month of September last Sir Edmundbury Godfrey a Justice of Peace had according to the Duty of his Oath and Office taken several Examinations Informations concerning the said Conspiracy and Plot the said Conspirators or some of them by Advice Assent Counsel and Instigation of the rest did incite and procure divers Persons to lie in wait and pursue the said Sir Edmundbury Godfrey divers days with intent to Murder him which at last was perpetrated and effected by them for which said horrid Crimes and Offences Robert Green Henry Berry and Lawrence Hill have since been Attainted and Dominick Kelly and Girald and others are fled for the same After which Murder and before the Body was found or the Murder known to any but the Complices therein the said Persons falsly gave out that he was alive and privately Married And after the Body found dispersed a false and malitious Report That he had Murdered himself Which said Murther was committed with design to stifle and suppress the Evidence he had taken and had knowledge of and discourage and deter Magistrates and Others from Acting in further Discovery of the said Conspiracy and Plot For which end also the said Sir Edmundbury Godfrey while he was alive was by them their Complices and Favourers threatned and discouraged in his proceedings about the same 7. And of their further Malice they have wickedly contrived by many false Suggestions to lay the Imputation and Guilt of the aforesaid Horrid and Detestable Crimes upon the Protestants that so thereby they might escape the Punishments they have justly deserved and expose the Protestants to great Scandal and subject them to Persecution and Oppression in all Kingdoms and Countries where the Romish Religion is received and professed All which Treasons Crimes and Offences above mentioned were Contrived Committed Perpetrated Acted and done by the said William Earl of Powis William Viscount Stafford William Lord Petre Henry Lord Arundel of Wardour and John Lord Bellasis and other the Conspirators aforesaid against our Sovereign Lord the KING His Crown and Dignity and against the Laws and Sta tutes of this Kingdom Of all which Treasons Crimes and Offences the Knights Citizens and Burgesses in Parliament Assembled do in the Name of themselves and of all the Commons of England Impeach the said William Earl of Powis William Viscount Stafford William Lord Petre Henry Lord Arundel of Wardour and John Lord Bellasis and every of them And the said Commons by protestation saving to themselves the liberty of exhibiting at any time hereafter any other Accusations or Impeachments against the said William Earl of Powis William Viscount Stafford William Lord Petre Henry Lord Arundel of Wardour and John Lord Bellasis and every of them And also of replying to the Answers which they and every of them shall make to the Premises or any of them or to any other Accusation or Impeachment which shall be by them Exhibited as the cause according to Course and Proceedings of Parliament shall require do pray that the said William Earl of Powis William Viscount Stafford William Lord Petre Henry Lord Arundel of Wardour and John Lord Bellasis and every of them be put to Answer all and every the Premises And that such Proceedings Examinations Trials and Judgments may be upon them and every of them had and used as shall be agreeable to Lâ—v and Justice and Course of Parliament The Humble Answer of William Viscount of Stafford now Prisoner in His Majesties Tower of London to the Impeachment of High Treason and other high Crimes and Misdemeanors exhibited against him and others to the Right Honorable the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament by the Knights Citizens and Burgesses in Parliament assembled in the name of themselves and of the Commons of England THe said Viscount saving to himself all advantage and benefit of Exceptions to the generality incertainty and insufficiency of the said Impeachment most humbly beseeching their Lordships thereof to take due notice and thereunto at all times to have a just regard He answereth and saith That he is not Guilty of all or any of the Offences charged against him by the said Impeachment and for his Tryal humbly and willingly putteth himself upon his Peers no ways doubting but that by the Grace of God and their Lordships impartial Justice he shall make his Innocence appear All which he most humbly submitteth unto their Lordships further Consideration Stafford Lord High Steward Gentlemen of the House of Commons be pleased to proceed Then Mr. Serjeant Maynard one of the Committee appointed to manage the Evidence began as followeth My Lords MAy it please your Lordships By the Command of the House of Commons who have imposed upon Us this Task we are here to Prosecute this great Charge against the Prisoner the Lord at the Bar. My Lords There are two Parts that are in this great Charge there is a General which is the Subversion of the whole Nation the King Himself to be Murdered the Protestant Religion to be Suppressed War to be introduced and those other things that are expressed in the Articles This General is charged in particular upon this Lord And my Lords it was in consideration how far it was fit to meddle with this General at this particular Tryal For if this Lord be guilty of such Crimes it will
after having required from him all possible obligations of Secrecy he told him plainly what great benefits would accrew to himself and what advantage to the Catholick Cause if he would make himself and the Nation happy by undertaking to kill the King of England who was an Heretick and consequently a Rebel to God Almighty My Lord Stafford did believe the Witnesses did embrace this proposal warmly and therefore directed him to prepare to go for England and to go before hand from Paris to Deep where he would meet him and go over with him But it seems my Lord Stafford met with some diversion for he did not keep his word with him in coming and so this Gentleman being disappointed went over without him but fearing to be called upon to the same Service he returned back again suddenly and went into the French Army My Lords We shall produce these Witnesses against the Lord at the Bar and when they have proved to your Lordships what I have opened any one who was not acquainted with the Popish party would believe they would be at a loss how to acquit themselves from this Charge All manner of foul and indirect practices have been used by them to Terrifie to Corrupt and to Scandalize our Witnesses all manner of Objections have been made to our Evidence If the Witness does not come up to speak directly to every Point we are told he says nothing at all if he speaks directly they cry he is not to be believed Thus they have a ready answer to every Witness that has been or ever shall be produced either that he says nothing Material or that nothing that he says ought to have any Credit But we doubt not by this Tryal before your Lordships if we cannot stop their mouths at least to convince all the World besides of the reality of this Plot. It will be no wonder if their Confidence goes on still to frame Cavils They are used to scandalize the Government and they cannot give it over How often has His Majesty under his Great Seal published and declared this Conspiracy How often has he press'd His Parliaments to go on to bring the Conspirators to Punishment and at the opening of this very Parliament he says plainly That he does not believe himself safe from their Designs Your Lordships also have Voted the unquestionable Truth of the Plot and so have the Commons yet these men are so hardy as still to deny the plainest Truth so confirm'd as this hath been Nay My Lords Their Malice goes yet farther for they have been so Bold as to whisper up and down and industriously to spread Reports before the Trial as if this Lord at the Bar and the rest who are Impeached should certainly be acquitted We do hope to be able to detect the Authors of this great Scandal and the Commons doubt not of your Lordships Concurrence to assist them in bringing them to their deserved Punishment This is sure the first time that ever any sort of men presumed to Reflect upon the Justice of this High and Noble Court Your Ancestors my Lords did by their Honour Courage and Justice preserve our Ancestors The advantage of which We who are descended from them do now enjoy and We shall never have occasion to doubt in the least but that your Lordships will tread in their steps You have in your hands a great Opportunity to make your Zeal for Truth and for the Protestant Religion famous to Posterity No Artifice or Malice can Create the least Jealousie in us that ever your Lordships should shew any Partiality or Injustice to the Commons of England To your Judgement this Cause is submitted and when we have your Judgement we doubt not but we shall drive Popery out of this English World My Lords We shall go on to the proof of our Cause and I hope this will be a happy day to us and the whole Protestant Interest Then Mr. Treby also one of the Committee appointed for the Management of the Evidence began as followeth My Lords THese two Learned Gentlemen have fully discharged their Province I shall proceed to call our Witnesses to give their Testimony But before we produce them your Lordships will be pleased to take notice that our Evidence will consist of Two Parts general and particular the general to shew the Universal Conspiracy the particular to shew what special part this Noble Lord the Prisoner at the Bar had in it And though in the first part my Lord Stafford may not be particularly named yet that Evidence will be pertinent and proper for us to give in this Trial of my Lord Stafford for we charge him not with the Private Treason wherein he with his immediate Complices only might be concerned but it is a Treason of the Popish Faction or at least the Principal and Active Papists We lay it in our Articles of Impeachment That there was an Execrable Plot contrived and carried on by the Papists and that the Conspirators acted diverse Parts and in diverse places beyond Sea as well as here It was a Treason that did bestâ—ide two Lands England indeed was the thing aimed at the destruction of the Religion Government and Liberty of England was the End but the Means and Instruments were not Collected here only but part of them were to be brought in from abroad This is an Enterprise too extensive to be intirely manag'd by a Single Nobleman And though we look upon my Lord Stafford as a great Malefactor yet we cannot think him so great a Man as to be able within his own Sphere to compass this whole Design Should we not take this course of Evidence first to prove the General Plot it might be a great and just objection in my Lords mouth to say You charge 〈◊〉 with a Design of Subverting the Kingdom how is that possible to be undertaken by me and those I have had opportunity to converse and confederate with a mighty part of the Catholick World had need be engaged for such a purpose My Lords If this would be a material Objection from this Lord then will it be requisite for us to obviate and prevent the Objection by shewing first that there was such a grand and universal design of Papists in which this Lord was to co-operate for his distinct share though perhaps when we descend to our particular Evidence it will appear that his part hath been great and manag'd with malice as great as any My Lords We shall begin with a Witness a Gentleman whose Education has given him the opportunity of knowing the inside of their Affairs and we presume he will give you a satisfactory account his name is Mr. John Smith Lord High Steward What do you call him to Gentlemen Mr. Treby To the General Plot my Lords Lord Stafford May it please your Lordships I know not who he is nor his Name I humbly beseech your Lordships that this Witness who ever he be and all the rest that have any thing to
John Trevor Then we desire they may be produced here and the Copies proved upon Oath and then we shall leave them upon your Lordships Table And my Lords we desire likewise at the same time to save another trouble there may be delivered in the Convictions of Reading Lane Knox and others Then Mr. Clare was Sworn and delivered in the Copies of the Records L. H. Stew. What Record is that Mr. Clare It is the Record of the Attainder of Coleman for high Treason L. H. Stew. Did you examine it Mr. Clare I did examine it L. H. Stew. Is it a true Copy Mr. Clare To the best of my understanding it is Here is likewise a Copy of the Record of the Conviction of Ireland Pickering and Grove for high Treason L. H. Stew. Is there Judgment of Attainder entred upon Record Mr. Clare Yes my Lords there is Judgement entred Here is a Copy of the Indictment Conviction and Attainder of Whitebread Fenwick Harcourt Gavan and Turner for high Treason Here is a Copy of the Record of Attainder of Richard Langhorn for high Treason Here is a Copy of the Attainder of Green Berry and Hill for the Murder of Sir Edmond-bury Godfrey Here is a Copy of the Conviction of Mr. Nathaniel Reading for endeavouring to Suborn Mr. Bedlow to retract his Evidence against some of the Lords in the Tower and Sir Henry Tichbourn L. H. Stew. What is the Judgment there Mr. Clare The Judgment is entred upon it and 't is to pay 1000 l. Fine and to be put in and upon the Pillory in the Palace Yard Westminster for an hour with a Paper upon his head written in great Letters For endeavouring Subornation of Perjury Here is a Copy of the Record of the Conviction of Tasbrough and Price for endeavouring to Suborn Mr. Dugdale and Judgment entred upon it And here is a Copy of the Record of Conviction of Knox and Lane for Conspiring to asperse Dr. Oats and Mr. Bedlow Here is the Record of the Conviction of John Giles for barbarously attempting to Assassinate John Arnold Esq one of His Majesties Justices of the Peace and the Judgment entred thereupon is To stand three times on the Pillory with a Paper on his Hat declaring his Offence to pay â—00 l. to the King to lie in Execution till the same be paid and find Sureties for his Good Behaviour during life L. H. Stew. Deliver them all in And if my Lords have occasion to doubt of any thing being left in the Court they will be there ready â—o be used All which were then delivered in Mr. Treby My Lords we humbly desire that the Record of Coleman may be read because there is more of special matter in it than any of the rest and your Lordships may dispose of the others as you please L. H. Stew. Read the Record of Coleman Then the Clerk read in Latin the Record of the Attainder of Edward Coleman formerly Executed for high Treason by him Committed in this horrid Popish Plot which in English is as followeth viz. Of the Term of Saint MICHAEL in the Thirtieth Year of the Reign of King CHARLES the Second c. Middlesex AT another time to wit on VVednesday next after eight days of St. Martin this same Term before our Lord the King at VVestminster by the Oath of Twelve Jurors honest and lawful Men of the County aforesaid Sworn and Charged to Enquire for our said Lord the King and the Body of the County aforesaid it stands presented That Edward Coleman late of the Parish of Saint Margaret VVestminster in the County of Middlesex Gentleman as a false Traitor against the most Illustrious most Serene and most Excellent Prince our Lord CHARLES the Second by the Grace of God of England Scotland France and Ireland King Defender of the Faith c. and his Natural Lord not having the Fear of God in his Heart nor weighing the Duty of his Allegiance but by the instigation of the Devil moved and seduced the cordial Love and the true due and Natural Obedience which true and faithful Subjects of our said Lord the King towards Him our said Lord the King ought and of right are bound to bear utterly withdrawing and devising and with his whole Strength intending the Peace and common Tranquility of this Kingdom of England to disturb and the true Worship of God within this Kingdom of England practised and by Law established to overthrow and Sedition and Rebellion within this Realm of England to move stir up and procure and the cordial Love and true and due Obedience which true and faithful Subjects of our said Lord the King towards Him our said Lord the King should bear and of right are bound to bear utterly to withdraw blot out and extinguish and our said Lord the King to death and final destruction to bring and put the 29 th day of September in the 27 th year of the Reign of our Lord CHARLES the Second by the Grace of God of England Scotland France and Ireland King Defender of the Faith c. at the Parish of St. Margaret VVestminster aforesaid in the County aforesaid falsly maliciously subtilly and traiterously proposed compassed imagined and intended Sedition and Rebellion within this Realm of England to move raise up and procure and a miserable Slaughter among the Subjects of our said Lord the King to procure and cause and our said Lord the King from his Kingly State Title Power and Government of His Realm of England utterly to deprive depose deject and disinherit and Him our said Lord the King to Death and final Destruction to bring and put and the Government of the same Realm and the sincere Religion of God in this Kingdom rightly and by the Laws of this Realm established for his Will and Pleasure to change and alter and the State of this whole Kingdom in its universal parts well instituted and ordained wholly to subvert and destroy and War against our said Lord the King within this Realm of England to levy and to accomplish and fulfil these his most wicked Treasons and traiterous Imaginations and Purposes aforesaid The same Edward Coleman afterwards to wit the said Twenty ninth day of September in the abovesaid Twenty Seventh year of the Reign of our said Lord the King at the Parish of Saint Margaret VVestminster aforesaid in the County of Middlesex aforesaid falsly subtilly and traiterously devised composed and writ two Letters to be sent to one Monsieur Le Chese then Servant and Confessor of Lewis the French King to desire procure and obtain to the said Edward Coleman and other false Traitors against our said Soveragin Lord the King from the said French King his Aid Assistance and Adherence to alter the true Religion in this Kingdom then and still Established to the Superstition of the Church of Rome and to Subvert the Government of this Kingdom of England And afterwards to wit the said Twenty Ninth Day of September in the abovesaid Twenty Seventh Year
and some years since and was the great Confident of the said Lady and the said Remige was for the most part taken with her Ladyship into Morgan's Chamber when the Consults were held there where he hath often seen Father Gavan Father Towers Father Evans Father Sylliard Roberts White Owens Barry and the Earl of Castlemain and other Priests and Jesuits meet and shut themselves up in the said Morgan's Chamber sometimes for an Hour sometimes for two Hours more or less and at the breaking up of the said Consults have broke out into an extasie of joy saying They hoped ere long the Catholick Religion would be established in England and that they did not doubt to bring about their Design notwithstanding they had met with one great Disappointment which was the Peace struck up with Holland saying that if the Army at Blackheath had been sent into Holland to assist the French King when he was with his Army near Amsterdam Holland had certainly been conquered and then the French King would have been able to assist us with an Army to establish Religion in England Which expressions with many others importing their confidence to set up the Romish Religion they frequently communicated to this Informant And the said Morgan went several times into Ireland to London and several other parts of England as this Informant hath just cause to believe to give and take measures for carrying on the Design and the said Remige and her Husband having first clandestinely sold their Estate and fled into France about May or June last for fear of discovery This Informant by many Circumstances being assured that the said Mrs. Remige was privy to all or most of the Transactions of the Plot. And he saith that about May last was two Years he was present at Mass with the Lord Powis in Verestreet when the Earl of Castlemain did say Mass in his Priestly Habit after the Rites and Ceremonies of the Church of Rome EDWARD TVRBERVILL Sworn the 9th day of November 1680. before Thomas Stringer William Poulteny Edmund Warcupp L. H. Steward My Lord this Affidavit is to the purpose to which you call for it this does say that your Lordship did go by the way of Calice it does absolutely so L. Stafford Now whether he be forsworn or no your Lordships may judge by these three Witnesses Mr. Turbervill My Lords that which I grounded my belief of his going to Calice upon and so consequently that Affidavit was the Letter which I received from my Lord which I have looked for but cannot find L. H. Stew. This Affidavit does not say you went from Calice to England but you went with Count Gramont to Calice L. Stafford I conceive my Lords this Affidavit and his Narrative are word for word the same only that Amendment of 72 for 73 upon which I observed before he was forsworn once I cannot tell what to say if this man can be believed And Count Gramont came by Diep too but besides my Lords in this Affidavit he does not say he believed so by the Letter tho' now he speaks of one L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford was Count Gramont in your Lordships company when you came to Diep L. Stafford No my Lords he was in England before me a month but my Lords I cannot deny but I had one recommended to come over with me that pretended himself to be a French Count but the man was as errant a Rascal as this that swears against me and that was one that called himself Count de Brienne whom all the world knows to be a Cheat. L. H. Stew. Call your other Witnesses my Lord. L. Stafford Where is John Minhead Who stood up L. H. Steward Who do you belong to Minhead My Lord Powis L. Stafford My Lords Mr. Turbervill he says by the persuasion of my Lady Powis went to Doway and he staid in the Monastery three weeks and not liking that life he came away this may be true I say nothing to it But that which I take Exception at is this He says for this the Earl of Powis and his Lady when he came back from Doway were very angry with him and so were all his Relations and he stood in fear of his life from them Surely when Mr. Turbervill knew he was in such danger he would not have come near them Pray ask this Gentleman whether he was at my Lord Powis's and how he was entertained L. H. Steward Do you know Turbervill Minhead Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. Have you seen him at my Lord Powis's Minhead Yes my Lords L. H. Stew How was he received there Minhead Very well my Lords L. H. Stew When was that Minhead In the year 75. L. H. Stew. Was that before or after he came back to England Minhead It was after he came from Doway L. H. Stew. What Country man are you Minhead A French man L. H. Stew. What Religion are you of Minhead A Roman Catholick L. Stafford Pray ask him whether he lay in my Lords house Minhead Yes my Lords he lay with me in my lodgings L. Stafford And yet he says he was afraid of his life L. H. Stew. Did my Lord know he lay there Minhead Yes he must needs because he came through the Room to go to Bed L. Stafford May it please your Lordships he says he was threatned that he should have his Brother disinherit him and which afterwards was compassed Now I shall shew that this is impossible for he had no Inheritance to lose nor was to have none for his Brother who is elder than he this man being by a second Venter hath Children as I shall make appear by another of his Brothers who is here And this not being settled upon him who was by the second Venter could not come to him but for want of Issue of that Brother must go to the Uncle So he swears he was disinherited of an Estate when he was to have no Estate nor could have Call Mr. John Turbervill who appeared My Lords I desire you to ask him whether he knew that upon his coming back to England he was ill used Mr. J. Turbervill I never knew any unkindness from my elder Brother to him L. H. Stew. Are you his Brother Mr. J. Turbervill Yes my Lords by the Father not by the Mother L. H. Stew. Well what can you say Mr. J. Turbervill I never heard any thing when he returned from Doway that he was ill received by my Lord Powis but in a few days after my Brother and Sister came to Town we went to Bloomesbury and there we met together and my Brother complaining that he was unfortunate in that he had undertaken what he could not perform in going beyond Sea and now wanted a Livelihood my eldest Brother told him he had done as far as his Ability was he could do no more it was his own Choice and he had no more to say L. Staff Had he any money from his Relations Mr. J. Turbervill He
Lord. High Steward Is it your Lordships pleasure that we do Adjourn Lords Ay Ay. L. H. Steward Then this House is Adjourned into the Parliament Chamber Then the Lords returned in their former Order to their House and the Commons went back to their House Mr. Speaker resumed the Chair and a Message from the Lords was sent by Sir Timothy Baldwin and Sir Samuel Clark Mr. Speaker The Lords have sent us to acquaint this House that they have Ordered the Prisoner William Viscount Stafford to be brought again to his Tryal at the Bar in Westminster-Hall to morrow morning at Ten of the Clock The Fourth Day Friday December 3. 1680. ABout the Hour of Ten in the Morning the Lords Adjourned into Westminster-Hall and returned in their former Order into the Court there erected and Mr. Speaker having left the Chair the Commons were seated as before mentioned The Court being sat Proclamation for Silence was made and the Lieutenant of the Tower commanded to bring his Prisoner to the Bar which being done the Lord High Steward spake to the Prisoner as followeth L. H. Steward My Lord Stafford your Lordships Defence took up yesterday All the day was employed in hearing your Lordships Witnesses to impeach the Credit of the Testimony that hath been given against you Your Lordship hath excepted against Dugdale because you were not at Tixall as he says you were neither the latter end of August nor the beginning of September till the Twelfth and when you were there you never sent for him to your Chamber but your Man upon his own desire brought him and when he came there the business was to desire you to get leave that he might go to the Race and there was no opportunity of private Discourse because your Men were in the Room all the while That Dugdale hath often said he knew nothing of the Plot that he swore falsly when he said he told of the Letter about the death of Sir Edmunbury Godfrey before it was known he was killed and when he said that Hobson told him presently after the Almoner went over which was three years before Hobson came to my Lord Aston's Service Your Lordship hath likewise objected that he hath corrupted persons to swear falsly against you and others as Robinson the Upholsterer against your Lordship Morrall the Barber against Sir James Symons and Holt the Blacksmith to swear that one Moor carried away Evers Your Lordship hath endeavoured to discredit Oats by his saying he knew nothing of any other persons that were concerned in the Plot and after accusing the Queen Your Lordship hath Impeached the Credit of Turbervill by proving that you came home by Diep and not by Calice as he says you did That you had never the Gout while you were in France nor as your Page says for these seven years That my Lord Castlemain was not at my Lord Powis's in the year 73. and there you left off This I take is the Sum of what your Lordship says if I do you any wrong your Lordship will put me in mind of it L. Stafford I thank your Lordship you have done it with great Equity and Truth L. H. Stew. Then go on L. Stafford The next Witness that I call is one John Porter Who stood up L. H. Stew. What is your Name Witness John Porter L. H. Stew. What Profession are you of Porter A Butler L. H. Stew. To whom Porter To my Lord Powis L. Stafford My Lords I desire your Lordships would ask him what Mr. Turbervill said about the Plot. L. H. Stew. I will ask him all the Questions your Lordship desires I should ask him Mr. Foley We desire to know what Religion he is of L. Stafford I desire your Lordships would ask him that Question and not the Managers L. H. Stew. They will tell me their Questions my Lord and I will ask them L. Staff They ask him my Lords and not you L. H. Stew. What Religion are you of Porter A Church of England man my Lords Mr. Serj. Maynard The Popish Church of England I believe L. Stafford Pray my Lords let not this be when my Witness says he is of the Church of England they cry he is of the Popish Church of England Mr. Serj. Maynard Pray good my Lord we are silent when you ask him proper Questions and make no Remarks we do not speak it to the Court we may say what we will among our selves I hope L. Staff I may ask impertinent Questions because I do not understand so well as these Gentlemen But I pray they may not deal thus with me L. H. Stew. My Lord you shall ask what Questions you please L. Stafford Pray ask him what Mr. Turbervill said to him about his knowledge of the Plot. L. H. Stew. What did Turbervill say to you about his knowing of the Plot Porter About a year since when I served my Lord Powis as Butler there he was used to come and see me it was not at my Lords House but he sent for me to a Victualling-House L. H. Stew. That was the last year Porter Yes L. H. Stew. What time of the Year Porter It was about Twelve Months ago I cannot say positively the time L. H. Stew. Was it Winter or Summer Porter He hath been both I can't be positive which I believe he hath been there 40 times L. H. Stew. In the year 80 or 79 Porter In the year 79. L. H. Stew. What did he say Porter He came there and asked me how my Lord Powis did and said he was extremely troubled that he was in that Affliction for he did verily believe that neither he nor the rest of the Lords were in the Plot and the Witnesses that swore against him he believed were perjured and could not believe any thing of it L. H. Stew. Have you any more to say Porter Yes my Lords I told him if there were such a thing as a Plot he having been beyond Sea must certainly know of it he told me as he hoped for Salvation he knew nothing of it neither directly nor indirectly against the Kings Sacred Person nor the Subversion of the Government And he further said Although I am a little low at present and my Friends will not look upon me yet I hope God Almighty will never leave me so much as to let me swear against innocent Persons and forswear and damn my self L. H. Stew. Where was this said to you Porter At the Ship Alehouse in Lincolns Inn Fields one time another time at the Kings Head Tavern in the Strand and another time at the Golden Ball in the Strand L. H. Stew. Was any body by besides your self Porter Not at that time but there is a Gentleman in Court that can testifie that he said such things at other times L. H. Stew. What say you to this Turbervill Mr. Turbervill I say 't is all false But if your Lordships please I 'll tell you what I said once I did conceive my Lord Powis was
have said or done I own what is entred as my Oath before your Lordships and am ready to answer it but I am not bound to say what does not at all concern this business L. Stafford I say my Lords 't is entred upon your Lordships Books that he did swear at the Council he was at Madrid with Don John of Austria I would know of him whether he did so Dr. Oats My Lords I would have my Lord to propose the Question to the Court of Peers L. H. Steward Have you sworn any thing of Don John of Austria Dr. Oats My Lords I refer my self to the Council Book L. Stafford I beseech your Lordships I may have that Book L. H. Steward I believe it is in the Narrative turn to the Journal you have that mentioned there To which the Clerk turned but it could not be sound L. H. Stew. If you will not acknwledge it we must stay till the Book be brought Dr. Oats My Lords if your Lordships please I will repeat as well as I can what was said at the Council Table but I had rather the Council Book were fetched because I am upon my Oath but my Lords I always thought the Council Book is no Record upon any man L. Stafford I desire it may be produced or he own that he said so Lord High Steward What you said at the Council Table you said upon your Oath and 't is lawful to lay it before you Dr. Oats But if your Lordships please as to what was said at the Council Table if my Lord will bring any one Viva voce to swear what was said by me there that will make something L. H. Stew. That may be material as he says That your Lordship should bring some body to swear he said so for the Clerks may mistake him L. Stafford If your Lordships please that the Book may be sent for I will make it out Sir W. Jones It could not be read if it were here L. H. Stew. If the Clerks will swear what is in the Books it may Sir W. Jones But whether the Clerks will take that upon them or no may be Question Lord. High Steward Go on in the mean time L. Stafford I cannot conclude with him without it L. H. Stew. Where is the Council Book For the Clerks inform me 't is not in their custody but the Gentlemen of the House of Commons have been attended with the Book and other Papers relating to it L. Stafford In the mean time give me leave to say something though perhaps it may be nothing to the purpose Mr. Yalden was just now going down ' and Turbervill threatned to lay him by the Heels L. H. Stew. If he did so 't is a Misdemeanor and he must be punished for it Call Yalden and Turbervill L. H. Stew. Mr. Turbervill Have you dared or threatned Yalden the Witness to lay him by the Heels Mr. Turbervill I did not speak any such words to him Mr. Dugdale was just by me all the while L. Stafford I tell you but what he said and what I can prove by Witness pray call Yalden Mr. Turbervill This Gentleman Captain Scudamore stood by me too L. H. Stew. But I ask you upon this Misdemeanor Whether you threatned Yalden to lay him by the Heels Mr. Turbervill My Lords I stood by Mr. Dugdale till he was gone down L. H. Stew. How could he lay him by the Heels By what Authority could he do it Mr. Turbervill I did not speak such a word upon my Oath L. Stafford Ask Yalden I am told he did L. H. Stew. I am afraid you are misinformed my Lord for he could not do it 't is not in his power L. Stafford He threatned he would Goal him but if you won't Examine it I submit to you Dr. Oats My Lords Yalden it seems calls us a Pack of Rogues that give Evidence for the King and here are Witnesses of it Yalden stood up L. H. Stew. Yalden were you threatned by Turbervill Yalden Yes I will tell you how I was threatned my Lords Mr. Turbervill pulls me by the Arm when I had given my Evidence and asked me if I knew him and bid me take care L. H. Stew. Do you call that a threatning Yalden My Lords I did not make this Complaint nor did I desire it should be made but speaking this in the Room some body carried it to my Lord. Mr. Turbervill My Lords now he hath done let me speak I pray Mr. Yalden did say in the hearing of Captain Scudamore who is here he had got a great many Clients here but you says he have got nothing but a pack of Rogues Yalden That is a mistake L. H. Stew. This is fine work But Gentlemen will you call Captain Scudamore now or will you stay till afterwards Sir Fr. Winn. My Lords Mr. Turbervill desires it may be now and we do also desire it upon this occasion Captain Scudamore is a man of Quality and will give you a true account We did not think to have interposed in my Lord Stafford's Evidence but he having impeached our Witnesses of a Misdemeanor we conceive it fittest to clear it at this time Then Captain Scudamore was sworn L. H. Stew. Mr. Scudamore what are you called for Can you say any thing that happened between Turbervill and Yalden Captain Scudamore The Gentleman that is here that said he was one of Grays-Inn I do not know his Name L. H. Stew. 'T is Yalden Captain Scudamore I heard a Gentleman ask him if he came there to get Clients And he said I know nothing among you but Roguery L. Stafford Whereabouts did this Gentleman stand Captain Scudamore In the Passage Mr. Turbervill Here are five or six more that heard him say so Yalden That which I said was this That I might come hither for Practice but I did not come hither for Roguery L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford until such time as the Council-Book comes which may be sent for Will your Lordship proceed to something else L. Wharton My Lord Steward I humbly conceive That it was resolved in the Lords House the day before yesterday that no Book should be sent for out of the Court and it was done upon the Judgment of all the Judges of England Yalden My Lords They will not permit me to go down L. H. Stew. There is a strange Quarrel between you Witnesses and an Affectation of complaining one of another Let Mr. Yalden go down Sir W. Jones My Lords I would only acquaint your Lordships that the Council-Book that my Lord does make mention of was in the hands of our Clerk we did not know of it when it was first discoursed of but now understanding that here it is we desire it may be delivered in to any body that hath occasion for it L. H. Stew. Hand it in Which was done L. H. Stew. What day does your Lordship speak of L. Stafford The 28 29 or 30. of September Clerk Then this is not the Book
for this is for January L. Stafford My Lords Is it your Lordships pleasure I may have Pen Ink and Paper allowed me L. H. Stew. Yes yes give my Lord Pen Ink and Paper which they did Then the Lord High Steward looked upon the Council-Book L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford In this Council-Book as far as we can inform our selves by the Table of it there is nothing at all of it it must be the Council-Book in September Sir Will. Jones We have no other Book but that L. H. Stew. Why did not your Lordship send all this while to the Council Table for any thing that was material but give the Court the trouble to be interrupted upon your Inquiries L. Stafford My Lords you may do what you please I did not know any such thing would have needed to be urged I have proof enough without the book The use I should have made of it is this I do appeal to some of your Lordships you that were of the Council I do appeal to which of you that were by whether Dr. Oats did not say at the Council Table he had been at Madrid he went from Vallidolid to Madrid and there did preach something at the Jesuits Colledge at Madrid what it was I cannot tell when Don John of Austria was by L. H. Stew. If any of my Lords of the Council do remember it they may Testifie L. Privy Seal My Lords I shall tell your Lordships as much as I remember of it Dr. Oats was examined about his Journey into Spain and amongst the rest some Question hapned to be asked whether he had seen Don John of Austria he said he had seen one that was called so that he knew him not but he was pointed to one that they said was Don John of Austria that I heard L. Stafford My Lord I thank you L. H. Stew. You hear what is said Dr. Oats Dr. Oats My Lords suppose I did say so I think there is no crime in it L. H. Stew. 'T is not objected against you as a Crime but as a mistake in your Oath there was no such man there L. Privy Seal My Lords I would not be misunderstood in the Evidence I give I did not say that Oats said he knew him but that he knew him not and only was told such a man was he Dr. Oats It was made apparent that I did not know him because I mistook his Person L. Stafford I do stand upon it That upon his Oath and I have reason to believe he did so because I am so informed he said it was Don John of Austria L. Privy Seal No my Lord Dr. Oats said he was a tall lean man and it seems he was a little fat man L. Stafford If any man would shew him a man to counterfeit Don John of Austria he would not shew him a lean man for a fat L. H. Stew. Go on my Lord. L. Stafford I shall now put your Lordships in mind that he swore but my Memory is bad and my Eyes much worse that he saw me receive a Commission and it seems he saw what it was too Now it is strange that amongst so many Commissions that were given none should be extant I desire him to shew the Commission he saw me receive L. H. Stew. Would your Lordship have him shew the Commissions which he saw you receive L. Stafford I do not believe he can shew my Commission for I am sure there was none I desire him to shew any one of my Letters he talks of He says he came over feigning to be a Papist when he was not and that they shewed him presently all my Letters and now he is come to discover the Plot I ask him did he keep any one of my Letters L. H. Stew. Have you any of any Lords Letters by you Dr. Oats My Lords I could not keep any Letters sent to the Fathers I had a fight of them but none of them to my particular use L. Stafford Does he know my Hand did he ever see it in his life Dr. Oats Yes I do know his Hand I believe I have a Letter of my Lords by me but not about me 't is of no Concern I 'm sure I have one of my Lord Arundel's L. Stafford But he says he hath a Letter of mine let him shew one of my Letters Dr. Oats He writes a mixt Hand I think 't is but an indifferent one L. Stafford So many Comissions and so many Letters as are spoken of and not one to be found or produced L. H. Stew. Can you send for the Letter Dr. Oats My Lords I am not certain of that L. H. Stew. Where did you see my Lord write Dr. Oats At Fenwick's my Lords when I carried the Letter to the Post L. Stafford How often hath he seen me at Fenwick's Dr. Oats My Lords not above twice if twice L. Stafford My Lords I cannot say I did not see him there but I can say I don't know the place nor that ever I was there Dr. Oats My Lords will his Lordship say I never saw him at Dr. Perrots L. Stafford Who Dr. Oats My Lord Stafford L. Stafford Where did he live Dr. Oats In Dukes-street going into Lincolns-Inn-Fields he is the Arch-Priest of the Seculars that is the Principal of the Secular Clergy and he hath the care of the English Colledge for the sending of Scholars to the Colledge Mr. Fisher my Lord Stafford and Dr. Perrot were together discoursing about sending his Son thither and Mr. Fisher would have one sent with him that was Dr. Perrot's Man L. Stafford I do profess before God I was never at Dr. Perrot's in my whole life L. H. Stew. Did not you send your Son abroad L. Stafford No my Lords not I. L. H. Stew. Had he a Servant at Dr. Perrot's to attend him Dr. Oats No my Lords not that I know of I cannot say he had not L. Stafford I tell you positively as I am a Christian my Lords I did not send my Son to Lisbon he went against my Will I told him I had an aversion to it but said I will not lay my Commands on you not to go but he would go I could not help it I told him Do you mean to go into the Colledge he would not tell me L. H. Stew. Pray my Lord does not your Lordship know Dr. Perrot Lord Stafford Yes my Lords I do L. Stafford Were you never with him at his House in Duke-street L. Stafford No my Lords never in my life nor saw that Fisher he speaks of ever in my life Dr. Oats My Lords 't is against the Rules of that House that any be admitted of that House if their Parents be Catholicks without consent of their Parents L. Stafford If he be admitted there I know it not Dr. Oats He lives there L. Stafford But I protest before God my Lords I asked him that Question Will you go to the Colledge No says he I will go to lie at the Bishops House but
which he forswears to morrow is not to be believed And the truth of it is as his Brothers prove to your Lordships he came to my Lord Powis's in the year 71 and so he forswears himself in every thing and is in no wise to be believed He swears to your Lordships I writ a Letter to him to acquaint him that I would go by Calice and not by Diep but I have proved I went by Diep and I assure your Lordships I have not been at Calice I think these twelve or fourteen years I conceive these things are very manifest and clear proofs against him that he hath not swore one true word He swears that my Lord Powis my Lady Powis and his friends perswaded him to go to Doway to to be a Frier but not liking it he came over again and was in danger of his life by them but the Evidence is sufficiently strong in proof that he afterwards was at my Lord Powis's and was well received that he lay in the House and was not in the least injured by them And for his other Relations his Brother proves he was not ill used by them They gave him Seven Pound to be gone and trouble them no more He says I said he was a Coward and I 'le tell you why I said so because a Captain that is now out of England told his Sister so who told me But that is not very material My Lords there is one Witness more John Porter that swears to your Lordships this one thing That this Turbervill swore to him at such an Alehouse he knew nothing of the Plot. And then my Lords there is Mr. Yalden and he is a Gentleman of Reputation he said in his company there was no Trade good but that of a Discoverer God damn the Duke of York Monmouth Plot and all for I know nothing of it Truly my Lords whether he got no money by it or is known since he hath been a Discoverer telling what he knew not so many Months ago and therefore I submit it to your Lordships what he is My Lords these people that swear against me there is not one of them a person of any Quality or Condition and whether they have not rather sworn for money than the truth by things that are known and need no proof I shall observe when I come to it to argue that point in Law Whether a man that swears for gain is a credible Witness or no My Lords I have as well as I can summed up that little Evidence that was given against me I cannot better do it in so short a time for indeed I had but a very short time last night and I have not slept I had the Cramp so much in extremity that my next Neighbour heard me roaring out My Lords I submit my self to your Lordships and doubt not but that the matters charged upon me will appear to your Lordships sufficiently answered And I beseech your Lordships well to consider that one thing against Dr. Oats his dissembling with God Almighty and his impudent owning of it This I do insist upon and I protest before God Almighty if I were a Judge I would not hang a Dog upon such Evidence My Lords I have many points in Law to offer to your Lordships and when you please I should do it I 'le name them to you L. H. Steward Name them my Lord if you have any Doubts in Law propound them Lord Lovelace My Lords I would not interrupt my Lord but I think indeed it is no interruption since his Lordship broke off and was going on to another point But I think I see one of the impudentest things that ever was done in a Court of Justice Whilest we are Trying a Person here for a Popish Plot I do see a prosessed Papist standing in the Body of your House and that is Sir Barnard Gascoyne Who thereupon went out of the Court. L. Stafford My Lords I do conceive I have cleared my self to your ' Lordships of what I am accused of My Lords The Course of my whole Life hath been otherwise I defie any Creature in the World to say That I ever used one disobedient or disloyal word of the King or did any such Act. I waited on the King that now is in the Unhappy War that is passed when I was in a low condition enough as to Fortune and my Wife and Family were thereby reduced to great Streights for my Wife and Children lived some five or six years upon some Plate and Jewels that we had whereas if I would have come and been at London and joined with that party I could have saved my Estate and lived quietly as others did But my Conscience told me I ought to wait upon the King and offer him my personal Service when I could do him no other I have shewn how the Witnesses have forsworn themselves I shall now if your Lordships please desire your Opinion in some points of Law And though perhaps I may name to your Lordships many things that are impertinent or not to the purpose I beg your Lordships pardon 't is out of the weakness of my Understanding and I hope you will not think ill neither your Lordships nor the House of Commons if I should through Ignorance move things impertinent The first Point of Law is this First I conceive there is no Example or President for it That Proceedings Criminal ever did continue from Parliament to Parliament and this is continued to three L. H. Steward Speak out my Lord and go on L. Stafford Secondly my Lords I do not question the power of the House of Commons in the least but my Lords I know they Impeach when they find Grounds for it without dispute but I question whether any man by the known Laws of this Kingdom in Capital Cases can be proceeded on but by Indictment first found by the Grand Jury and not by Impeachment by any Person or other body of Men. L. H. Steward Say on my Lord. L. Stafford Thirdly my Lords I conceive there are many defects in the Indictment or the Impeachment Indictment there is none There is no Overt Act alledged in the Indictment or Impeachment I know not well what it is called And my Lords by the Act of Parliament in 1 H. 4. c. 10. nothing from thenceforth is to be Treason but according to the Statute of 25 Edw. 3. which includes an Overt Act. Fourthly my Lords I desire that I may prove that by Law they are not competent Witnesses for they swear for money But my Lords I forgot one thing to say to Your Lordships as to the Evidence that these Gentlemen did endeavour to prove I do not speak whether they did or not a general Plot of the Papists whether they did not I am not concerned in it for I say they have not proved me a Papist which I submit to Your Lordships and though any man may know me so in his private knowledge yet they having not given any
in a time when that time is so far elapsed The next matter is That this man was never with my Lord how was that proved for 't is a Negative Why my Lord is pleased to call his own Servants Furnese and the Boy Leigh and what say they they never saw any such man My Lords I desire your Lordships to observe That Mr. Turbervill was introduced by greater Confidents than either of these Servants Mr. Turbervill came in the company of the Priests and you hear the Boy deny that he knew Anthony Turbervill but not that he knew Father Turbervill nor doth my Lord himself deny it nor doth either Master or Man deny my Lords correspondency with the other two Fathers And it might be very easie for Mr. Turbervill to come in the company of the Priests and the Boy not take particular notice of him And 't is as little an Objection what my Lord says that Turbervill himself said he did not know the Boy how many are there that come to the Houses of another and unless they Lodge there or dine there often do not remember the Servants of the House And 't is no greater an Objection to say the Servants did not know him The Priests they knew him they were his Guides they were the likeliest to gain him Admittance not only into my Lord's House but into my Lord's Heart My Lords Your Lordships will be pleased likewise to observe They have also gone about in very little matters to disprove Mr. Turbervill as that whereas he says he was not well used by my Lord Powis and his Lady when he returned from Doway that he was very well used and as one Witness I think Minhead says he was permitted to lie in a Room near my Lord's Chamber My Lords Mr. Turbervill does not pretend to say that my Lord Powis shut him out of doors but what Reproaches or unkind Words might pass between them in private Minhead might not hear So that to say that he lay in my Lord's House is no Answer to this Matter And for the other Witness his Brother that speaks of his Kindreds being kind to him that under favour does not at all disprove him for what was the kindness His Brother and Sister were so kind as to give him Seven Pounds never to see him more a great matter when a younger Brother lies upon a Family that the trouble of his stay there is redeemed at the price of Seven Pound This was a very great kindness a kindness indeed that one would scarce deny to a Stranger if in Poverty I mention the least matters I can remember because I would have nothing stick with your Lordships Then Secretary Lydcott the Fellow of Kings Colledge was called again but indeed my Lords he was so out in his Arithmetick so mistaken in the Year and used the New Stile the Romish so much more than ours that it makes me suspect he is not so great a Protestant as he pretends to be He promised us his Book which he was not then prepared to produce but because we do not hear of him nor of his Book since we say no more of him My Lords John Porter my Lord Powis's Butler comes next and what does he tell your Lordships Why that Mr. Turbervill came not to Powis's House it seems he did not appear there but that he came to a Victualling House hard by and he telling Turbervill he must know something of the Plot he denied that he knew any thing To the same purpose or rather to less and more improbably does Yalden the Gentleman of Grays Inn as he calls himself testifie who says that walking in Grays Inn Walks he had discourse with Turbervill and that he then swore there was no Trade good now but that of a Discoverer and damned himself because he could make no Discovery Truly my Lords this looks in it self to be something prepared for the purpose It is not probable that a Man that should use those horrid Oaths and should have such a mind to be a Discoverer should disable himself ever to be so by swearing he knew nothing But I will not only answer that matter with saying 't is improbable but I shall desire Your Lordships to remember that Mr. Powel a Gentleman of the same House and of good Reputation does swear that Turbervill did acquaint him that he could discover a considerable matter and this was above a year since And Mr. Arnold a Member of the House of Commons does confirm it that he did several times acquaint him that he could make an important Discovery and gave him several reasons why he thought not fit to do at that time because of the Dangers which might arise from some Great Men and therefore till he had a more convenient Opportunity he would not discover But as soon as the Parliament sate very early he did begin to discover So that I shall oppose the Testimony of Mr. Powel and Mr. Arnold to the Testimony of my Lord Powis's Butler and Mr. Yalden the latter of whom speaks so improbably and of a Discourse half a year ago whereas Mr. Powel speaks of what Mr. Turbervill said above a year since and Mr. Arnold of a longer time My Lords It hath been sometimes objected that Mr. Turbervill was a Stranger to my Lord and it was too great a Trust to commit to a Stranger too great a Secret for a Stranger to be acquainted with My Lord's design of the King's Death was too great a matter to lodge with one with whom my Lord had no more Acquaintance than he had with Turbervill Your Lordships will be pleased to observe who they were that did introduce him and who probably gave the best Character of him they were the three Priests and I do not wonder when these Priests had brought my Lord up to such a purpose that they should prevail with his Lordship to give Credit to and deal with a Man that was not very unlike in his Circumstances to attempt such a business For your Lordships will observe he was a man that was very stout for against my Lord's reflection upon him as to Cowardise in deserting the Army Mr. Turbervill hath produced the Certificate of his dismission which gives him a very good Character Besides he was a man indigent and therefore I think there could not be a fitter man chosen for the purpose if he had been so void of all Grace as to undertake it And that Priests having gotten a man so qualified as they thought him were not likely to let slip such an opportunity But My Lords to come to that which is the sum of the business and which my Lord lays more weight on than all the rest and that is the Affidavit which Mr. Turbervill swore before the Justices of the Peace which was in effect what he informed the House of Commons and in that Affidavit besides his alteration of Times which I have spoken to already it is objected that he does say that which