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A79438 A theological dialogue: containing the defence and justification of Dr. John Owen from the forty two errors charged upon him by Mr. Richard Baxter in a certain manuscript about communion in lyturgical worship. Chauncy, Isaac, 1632-1712. 1684 (1684) Wing C3757aA; ESTC R230946 46,146 50

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A Theological Dialogue Containing the DEFENCE and JUSTIFICATION OF Dr. John Owen FROM THE FORTY TWO ERRORS Charged upon him by Mr. Richard Baxter In a certain MANUSCRIPT ABOUT Communion in Lyturgical Worship Hebr. 11.5 By Faith Abel obtained a witness that he was righteous God testifying of his gifts and by it being dead yet speaketh 1 Cor. 4.3 4. With me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you or of mans judgment He that judgeth me is the Lord. LONDON Printed for the Author 1684. A THEOLOGICAL DIALOGUE CONTAINING Dr. Iohn Owen's DEFENCE AND JUSTIFICATION AGAINST Mr. Richard Baxter's CHARGE c. J. O. SIR you say That there is a certain Manuscript come to your hand which is famed to be Dr Owen's but received by you from a private hand which you publish taking it for granted so to be add his Name to it and expose it to Publick View and charge the said Dr. Owen with forty two Errors therein contained It is not yet proved by you to be his and therefore whether its reasonable for you to charge him with forty two Errors if you had found them in the said Manuscript let the World judge But whether the charge of such Errors on the said Manuscript be just give us leave to Examine by our Ensuing Conference And seeing by a continued Prosopopeia you direct your Discourse Charges Reproofs and Admonitions to me as if I were personally present or at least living in the Body who you know departed this Life some months since Take it not amiss if I treat you in the like nature and think it as feasible for a dead man to speak in the Ears of the Living as for the Living to speak in the Ears of the Dead I suppose if that Manuscript were mine some or other of the Congregation to which I was Pastor might come to me with this Case of Conscience Sir Is it lawful for us who are Members of a Congregation of Faithful People according to Article 19. of the Church of England for to joyn now as things are in their present Circumstances in the Publick Worship by the Liturgy And that it was Answered Manuscript It is not lawful for us to go to and joyn in Publick Worship by the Common Prayer because that Worship in it self according to the Rule of the Gospel is unlawful Now I pray Sir what Resolution would you give of this Case R. B. I say It is not only lawful but a Duty for those that cannot have better Publick Church-Worship without more hurt than benefit and are near a competent Parish Minister to go to and joyn in Publick Worship performed according to the Liturgy and in Sacramental Communion and for those that can have better to joyn sometimes with such Parish-Churches when their forbearance scandalously seemeth to signifie that they take such Communion for unlawful and so would tempt others to the same Accusation and Uncharitable Separation J. O. Sir Your Resolution seems to me very long and upon so many Suppositions that its very ambiguous and doth very scarcely if at all reach the Enquiry here made For 1. We ask for our selves who are Actual Members of a Voluntary Church whether we may joyn in such Communion spoken of when we are as we apprehend of a Society and have a Publick Worship more agreeable to the mind of Christ and our own Edification and do you judge whether that be better or no for us 2. What you mean by a competent Ministry we know not one man judges a man a Competent yea able and profitable Minister which another doth not who must be a binding Judge to me in this case Must I walk by my own Judgment for Edification or by another Mans 3. Doth nearness to a Competent Minister make it my duty to joyn in all the Publick Worship of that Church of which he is Minister You say If I cann't have better But if I have and can by going further what then And for those that can have better to joyn sometimes in such Parish-Churches but then not alwayes and to leave their aforesaid Communion as unlawful whereas our said Parish-Churches require us so to do prosecuting us by Laws wherever they find us assembled You say it must be when our forbearance scandalously seemeth to signifie that we take such Communion for unlawful Who shall be judge of this Doth my Actual Non-communion with any Church scandalously reflect upon its Constitution if I walk in Communion with a Church which I judge to be a Church of Christ Must I go by the conduct of every peevish man or Church that will say so If a Church of Baptists in the same Parish with me will say so must I therefore joyn with them upon their unalterable terms which I am not satisfyed in Again what if I do take such Communion for unlawful upon grounds satisfactory to my self am I bound to-slight those grounds because somebody saith my forbearance hath a Scandalous Signification Likewise if my Separation be in duty to wards God and my own Soul it 's not uncharitable to any Man neither do I tempt any man by walking therein to uncharitableness or any Accusation thereof Manuscript Something must be premised to the Confirmation of this Position J. O. These are the things that we premise and therefore should be agreed upon on both sides pro concessis before we go to prove the Position laid down by the following Twelve Arguments Manusc 1. The whole System of Liturgical Worship with all its inseparable Dependencies are intended for as such it is Established by Law and not in any part of it only as such it is required that we receive it and attend unto it It is not in our power it is not left to our judgment or liberty to close with or make use of any part of it as we shall think fit There are in the Mass-Book many Prayers directed to God only by Jesus Christ yet it is not lawful for us thereon to go to Mass under a pretence only of joyning in such lawful Prayers As we must not offer their Drink-Offerings of Blood so we must not take up their Names in our Lips Psal 16 4. have no Communion with them R. B. To the first I answer 1. If he will include all that is in the Liturgy the Nonconformists confess that there is something in it which they differ from as unjustifiable and so there is in all mens Worship of God J. O. We say The whole System our meaning is plain the totum as it stands constituted in all its integral parts When I speak of John or Thomas c. I speak not of a Finger or a Leg if I do I say the Finger or Leg of such an one So we speak not of those things that you will call faulty and unjustifyable as it may be a Surplice or Cross c. but of the whole Liturgy-Worship as Establish'd R. B. He intimateth that it is not in cur power to