Selected quad for the lemma: lord_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
lord_n	john_n	king_n	sir_n	55,943	5	6.2501	4	true

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A91210	The Levellers levelled to the very ground. Wherein this dangerous seditious opinion and design of some of them; that it is necessary, decent, and expedient, now to reduce the House of Peeres, and bring down the Lords into the Commons House, to sit and vote together with them, as one House. And the false absurd, grounds whereon they build this paradox, are briefly examined, refuted, and laid in the dust. / By William Prynne, Esquire.	Prynne, William, 1600-1669.	1648 (1648)	Wing P4001; Thomason E428_7; ESTC R20341	22,072	30

holding a Parliament or making Lawes without the Lords is a sign of an intoxicated brain Fiftly I find in 21 E. 3. nu 58. 21 E. 3. n. 60. 37 E. 3. n. 12 34. 50 E. 3. n. 12 13. and the yeer-book of 39 E. 3. 7. b. that the King and Lords in Parliament * See the Free holders grand Inquest have made binding laws without the Commons in some cases but not the King and Commons without the Lords And in the Parliament of 6 E. 3. Parl. 2. n. 7. the Commons had license to depart the parliament but the Lords were commanded to attend the King the next morning to advise him So that there is far more colour in point of Presidents to prove that the King and Lords may make Laws and grants of aydes as the Lords did by and for themselves 3 E. 3. n. 4 5. Parl. 2. 13 E. 3. n. 7. without the Commons then the King and Commons without the Lords Sixtly to this that the Knights Citizens and Burgesses in parliament have a greater voyce then the greatest Earl in parliament because they represent the Countries Cities and Burroughs from whence they come and the Earl but himself I answer first that the reason holds not for if this were true then every Knight Citizen and Burgesse that serves for the greatest Counties Cities and Burroughs should have a greater voyce and power in the Commons house then those that serve for lesser and the smallest because they represent and assent and vote for more Freeholders Citizens and Burgessers then they and by the same reason the lesser and poorer Peers should have a lesser voyce in the Peers house then the greatest and richest which we know is false and absurd Secondly many Peers are of greater worth value estate and interest in relation to the Kingdom then many poor Burroughs and therefore by this reason their voices should be greater then both Burgesses serving for them Thirdly every Peer votes not onely for himself but for all the Nobility and whole State and Kingdom whereof he is a member as well and as much as any Commoner and therefore his voyce is as great as theirs As to the Lords negative voice in Parliament I answer first the King common Laws and Statutes of England have ever allowed and acknowledged it in all Ages Secondly to deny them this Priviledge is to make the whole house of Peers meaner then the meanest Burgesse who hath a negative voyce in all debates and votes that passe the Commons house yea to deny them to be freemen and make them worse then the Philistine Lords who had a negative voyce 1 Sam. 29. 2 to 12 And to make them give their cōsents to whatever the Cōmons shall carry by their plurality of Votes though it be but by one or two is to set up Popish blind obedience and implicit faith yea to destroy that liberty of conscience and judgement which the Objectors Levellers and Army do pretend they fight and so earnestly contest for Thirdly there are sundry presidents in our Parliament Rolls of the Lords negative voyces in Parliaments I shall instance onely in two or three The first in print in the Statute of Marlbridge 20 H. 3. c. 3. The Bishops and Clergie importuned the Lords that they would consent that all such as were born afore Matrimony should be legitimate as well as those who were born within Matrimony as to the succession of Inheritance for so much as the Church accepteth such for legitimate And ALL THE EARLS AND BARONS WITH ONE VOICE answered NOLUMUS c. WE WILL NOT CHANGE THE LAWS OF THE REALM which hither to have been used and approved Here the Lords negative voyce hindered the alteration of the common Law against the Bishops and Clergies importunate Vote to change it So in the Parliament of 28 E. 3. nu 25. the Commons desired that any man attainted upon a writ of Oyer and Terminer might bring his Attaint hanging the suits against the other To this the answer on the Roll is THE LORDS WILL NOT ALTER THE ORDER OF THE LAW The like negative answer you may read in 21 E. 3. n. 12 29. 1 R. 2. n. 34 69 111. 2 R. 2. n. 57 58. Parl. 1. Parl. 2. n. 48. and sundry other Rols Therefore to inferre any thing from these erronious passages against the Lords Louse Votes Judicature or negative voyce is but the blind following of the blind and contradict all Parliament Records History Antiquity and Law it self and approve and establish their authority judicature and distinction from the Commoners Finally it is evident by the Parliament Rols of 6 E. 3. Parl. 2. n. 3. 13 E. 3. Par. 2. n. 7 8. 15 E. 3. n. 6 7 9 17 18 35 37. 17 E. 3. n. 9 11 12 59. 18 E. 3. n. 10. 21 E. 3. n. 4 5 70. 22 E. 3. n. 3 4 29. 22 E. 3. Parl. 2. n. 6 7. 27 E. 3. n. 4. 29 E. 3. n. 10. 36 E. 3. n. 6 7. 40 E. 3. n. 8. 42 E. 3. n. 7. 47 E. 3. n. 5 6 12. 50 E. ● n. 3 8 9 10 14. 51 E. 3. n. 18 19. 1 R. 2. n. 12 13. 2 R. 2. n. 10 23 to 29. 2 R. 2. Parl. 2. n. 6. 4 R. 2. n. 9 to 16. 5 R. 2. n. 13 to 31. 6 R. 2. n. 9 10 1● 6 R. 2. parl 2. n. 14 15. 6 R. 2. parl 3. n. 8 9. 7 R. 2. n. 11. 7 R. 2. Parl. 2. n. 10 11. 13 R. 2. n. 6. 15 R. 2 n. 15. 16 R. 2. n. 6. 17 R. 2. n. 6 17 18 20 R. 2. 8 9 10 12 13 16 17. 21 R. 2. n. 8 9 16 to 21. That the Lords and Commons in the Parliaments of King Edward the third and Richard the second were distinct both in their debates con●ultations councels p●titions votes and places of sitting too 50 E. 3. n. 3 8. Sir John Knevet Chancellour of England having declared the causes of calling that Parliament before the King Lords and Commons willed them to goe together THE LORDS BY THEMSELVES AND THE COMMOS BY THEMSELVES and speedily to consult and give answer After which the Commons were willed to d●part TO THEIR ACCUSTOMED PLACE b●ing the Chapter house of the Abbot of Westminster whither they went In which place they likewise sate 2 R. 2. n. 10. 4 R. 2. n. 9. And in 15 E. 3. n. 17. 47 E. 3. n. 5 6. 50 E. 3. n. 8. 9. 51 E. 3. n. 18 19. 1 R. 2. n. 12 13 14. 5 R. 2. n. 14. 6 R. 2. Parl. 2. n. 15. 7 R. 2. Parl. 2. n. 10 11. The Commons came to THE LORDS HOUSE and required that certain of the Lords there named WOULD VOUCHSAFE TO CONFER WITH THE COMMONS whereupon they went to the Chamberlains chamber to confer with the Commons And at other times they were appointed to goe and consult with the Commons at some other place by the Lords order In 2 R. 2. Parl. 1. n.

Government of this Kingdom to unking the King unprince the Prince unlord the Lords and quite destroy their House almost effected by expulsions and impeachments of most of their Members by degrees who have scarce enough left to make up an house which it is high time for them the Commons to observe yea a project to extirpate Monarchy and Nobility and set up a popular Anarchy and Polarchy And therfore who ever hath plotted and fomented it is more guilty of high Treason then Strafford Canterbury or the Gun-powder Traitors and deserves a severer punishment then they underwent even by the hands of the Parliament it self and all that are wel-wishers to Parliaments or Kingdom though no friends to Peers Ninthly this division of the Houses is First a great honour to the Parliament and Houses savouring of greater Majesty State and Order then their joyning into one and giving every estate its * 31 H. 8. ● 1● du● place and ranke Secondly a great ease and benefit to the Subject who may make his Addresses and Petitions to either at his election for reliefe Thirdly a great dispatch and expedition to all publike affaires one House fitting and preparing them for the Debat concurrence of the other at one and the same time as Committees of each House prepare and expedite businesses for the whole House Fourthly a means of more speedy justice by the Commons preparing of Articles and evidence for complaints and impeachments presented by them to the Lords whiles they are dispatching other businesses and their hearing Writs of Errour and other causes whiles the Commons are upon other debates which they could not do in one house but joyntly together and successively not with so quick dispatch and such good order as now Fifthly a thing very necessary and advantagious to the Kingdom and people and safest for the Parliament in that the Lords upon their second debates and conferences with the Judges and others many times amend and rectifie divers errours imperfections and mistakes in the over-hasty Votes yea deliberate Orders Ordinances Bils and Declarations of the Commons which the Commons acknowledge by their assents unto their amendments and oft times the Commons stay some Votes Orders Bils Ordinance sent down to them by the Lords and their several amendments and dislikes with the conferences and debates occasioned thereupon and second considerations of Businesses Votes Ordinances Orders Bils Declarations and the like make them more profitable compleat and valid and lesse liable to exceptions and evasions then else they would have been In all which respects this division of the Houses and the Lords and Kings negative voyces rightly considered and used are not onely convenient but expedient and absolutely necessary for the publike good whatever Lilburn and his ignorant Levellers fancy to the contrary I shall therefore close up this with that wholesome and seasonable advice of Solomon Prov. 24. 21 22. My sonne feare thou the Lord and the King and meddle not with those WHO ARE GIVEN TO CHANGE For their calamity shall rise suddenly and who knoweth the ruine of them both There is onely one Objection to be removed Object wherewith I shall arme the Levellers that so I may leave nothing unanswered that may be hereafter insisted on And that is this passage in Modus tenendi Parliamentum We must know that for the granting of such help and ayd to the King it hehooveth THAT ALL THE PEERS OF THE PARLIAMENT AGREE And we must understand that two Knights which come to the Parliament for the Shiers and Countries out of which they come have a greater voyce in Parliament TO GRANT then THE GREATEST EARL in England And after the same manner the Procters for the Clergie or Clerks of the Convocation-house for one Bishoprick have a greater voyce in Parliament if they all agree then the Bishop himself And this is true in all things which ought to be granted or denyed to the party or are to be done therein And this is manifest BECAUSE THE KING MAY HOLD A PARLIAMENT WITH THE COMMOMALTY AND COMMONS OF THE KINGDOM WITHOUT BISHOPS EARLS AND BARONS yet so as they be summoned to the Parliament although no Bishop Earl or Baron come according to their summons BECAUSE IN TIMES PAST NEITHER WAS THERE BISHOP EARL OR BARON and yet EVEN THEN KINGS KEPT THEIR PARLIAMENT But it is far otherwise on the other side for though the Commonalty to wit Laity and Clergie were summoned to the Parliament as of right they ought to be yet for some certain causes they would not come as if they did pretend that the King did not govern them as he ought and in speciality point out the Articles in which he misgoverned them as he ought TUNC PARLIAMENTUM NULLUM EST OMNINO l So the Latin the English being nonsence and mistranslated in many places then there is no Parliament at all though all the Archbibishops Bishops Earls and Barons and and all the Peers should be present with the King And therefore it behooveth that all things which ought to be affirmed or informed granted or done by the Parliament should be granted by the Commonalty of the Parliament which consists of three degrees or kinds assembled in Parliament to wit of the Practors of the Clergie the Knights of the Shires the Citizens and Burgesses who represent the whole Commonalty of England and not of Noble men because every one of them is for his own proper person present at the Parliament and for no other Which Master m Holinshead Chron. of Irel. p. 127 128. John Vowel in his Order and Vsage how to keep a Parliament seconds in these words If the King in due order have summoned all his Lords and Barons and they will not come or if they come they will not yet appear or if they come and appear and will not doe no● yeeld to any things THEN THE KING WITH THE CONSENT OF THE COMMONS MAY ORDAIN AND ESTABLISH ANY ACTS OR LAWS WHICH ARE AS GOOD SVFFICIENT AND EFFECTVALL AS IF THE LORDS HAD GIVEN THEIR CONSENTS But on the contrary if the Commons be summoned and will not come or comming will not appear or appearing will not consent to do any thing alledging some just weighty or great cause the King in those cases cannot with the Lords devise make or establish any Law The reasons are these When Parliaments were first began and ordained there were no Prelates or Barons of the Parliament and the temporal Lords were very few or none and then the * In what age was there ever such a Parliament of King and Commons onely King and his Commons did make a full Parliament which authority was NEVER YET ABRIDGED Again every Baron in Parliament doth represent his own person and speaketh in the behalf of himself alone but in the Knights Citizens and Burgesses are represented the Commons of the whole Realm and every of these giveth consent not onely for himself but for all those

the House of Peers or their negative voyce is as great nonsence and frenzy as to argue that all the Lords and Commons ought presently to be sent to Bedlam because one of our Parliaments was stiled Insanum Parliamen●um The mad Parliament and they may possibly prove now as mad as the Parliamēt was then reputed as they will do in good earnest if they should go about to levell the Lords and detrude them to the Commons house as these mad Sectaries and Levellers would perswade them Fiftly neither of these Writers were good Lawyers Historians or Antiquaries versed in Parliament Records for first our o 22 E. 3. 3. b. ● H. 7. 14. 11 H 7. 27 B● Parl. 107. Plowdens Cou●t 79. Crompton's Jurisdiction f. 8. Fortescue c. 18 f. 20. 4 H. 7. 6. ● Dy 92. Bro. 134 39 E. 3. 7. Law-books are expresse in point That no Law nor Act of Parliament can be made by the King and Commons without the Lords concurrent assent no more then by the King and Lords without the Commons And Sir Edward Cook the greatest Lawyer in this latter age is positive in his 4. Inst. c. 1. where he writes particularly of Parliaments f. 25. There is NO ACT OF PARLIAMENT BVT MVST HAVE CONSENT OF THE LORDS the Commons and royall assent of the King as appeareth by RECORDS AND OVR LAW-BOOKS Therefore this fancy of theirs that the King and Commons may make Laws without the Lords is a cleer mistake even in point of Law which the very form and penning of all our Statutes Be it enacted by the King c. THE LORDS SPIRITVALL AND TEMPORALL and Commons in this present Parliament assemblea and the like refutes Secondly all our Historians and Antiquaries concur herein That there can be no Parliament nor ever was in any age since Parliaments were in England held by the King and Commons alone without the Lords there being no such Parliament ever heard or read of neither do these Authors instance in any one President therefore this ground of their opinion That in times past our Kings kept their Parliaments when before there were any B●shops or temporall Lords is a meer groundlesse assertion contradicted by all our Antiquaries and Historians which alwayes make mention of Archbishops Bishops Abbots Dukes Princes Earls Lords and Barons in our ancientest Parliaments but * See Mr. Seldens Titles of Honour part 2. c. 5. Spelmanni Concil Tom. 1. Truth triumphing over falshood p 50 to 70. The grand Inquest p. 8 to 16. no mention at all of any Knights of Shires Citizens and Burgesses Thirdly all our Parliament Rolls contradict this fancy that there can be no Act nor Ordinance of Parliament without the Lords consent as well as the Commons as is evident by the penning of all our printed Acts and by 6 Edw. 3. Rot. Parl. n. 5. 17 E. 3. n. 59 60. 43 E. 3. n. 3 10. 14 R. 2. n. 14 15. 13 H. 4. n. 25. with many more yea the Lords presence in Parliament hath at all times be●n so absolutely necessary and expedient that our Parliaments from time to time have been adjourned from the day that they were first appointed to sit till some few days after upon this very reason That ALL THE LORDS by reason of the foul weather shortnesse of summons or some other occasion were not yet come up to the Parliament OR SOME OF THE LORDS NOT COME and the Declaration of the causes of calling the Parliament by the Lord Chancellour or chief Justice and all Parliamentary businesse deferred till their comming as well as because some of the Knights and Burgesses were not come nor all the Writs for their elections returned upon which reason and the absence of some Lords the first day of the Parliaments sitting hath been oft adjourned as the Parliament Rolls of 6 E. 3. nu 1. 6 E. 3. Parl. 2. n. 5 6 8 9. 13 E. 3. Parl. 2. n. 4. 15 E. 3. n. 5. 17 E. 3. n. 2. 6. 18 E. 3. n. 1 2 5. 20 E. 3. n. 5. 21 E. 3. n. 4. 22 E. 3. n. 1. 25 E. 3. n. 1. 29 E. 3. n. 4. 36 E. 3. n. 1. 37 E. 3. n. 1. 42 E. 3. n. 1. 50 E. 3. n. 1. 51 E. 3. n. 3. 1 R. 2. n. 1 2 R. 2. n. 1. 3 R. 2. n. 1. 4 R. 2. n. 1. 5 R. 2. Parl. 1. n. 1. Parl. 2. n. 1. 6 R. 2. Parl. 1. n. 1. Parl. 2. n. 1. abundantly * And 8 H. 4. n. 28 30 54. ● H. 4. n. 1. 1 H. 4. n. 1. manifest it being the custome of all former Parliaments to Debate Vote and determine nothing but in FVLL PARLIAMENT when all or the most part of the Members of both Houses were present and not in a thin or empty House when above half or three parts were absent an innovation of dangerous consequence brought in of later times and fit to be redressed for which some Parliaments and Parliamentary proceedings have been p See 31 F. ● n. 16. 1 H 4. Rot. Parl. 22 25 66. 39 H. 6. c. 1. Statutes of Ireland 10 H 7. c. 23. 21 R. 2. c. 12. 31 H 6 c. 1. 17 E. 4. c. 7. repealed and judged voyd by Parliament especially when accompanied with any armed forces and violence over-awing the Houses or their Members to prevent which in former ages by the q Cook 4 Inst p. 14 2 E. 3. c. 3. ancient law and custome of Parliament a Proclamation usually was and ought to be made at Westminster in the beginning of every Parliament THAT NO MAN VPON PAIN TO LOSE ALL THAT HE HAD SHOVLD DVRING THE PARLIAMENT in London or Westminster or the Suburbs c. wear any privy coat of Plate OR GOE ARMED or use any Games Playes Justs and other pastimes or shewing Shewes during the Parliament The reason whereof was That the high Court of Parliament should not thereby be disturbed nor the Members thereof which are TO ATTEND the arduous and urgent businesse of the Church and Common-wealth be thereby WITHDRAWN OR FORCED AWAY as is apparent by 5 E. 3. nu 5. 6 E. 3. nu 2 3. 6 E. 3. Parl. 2. n. 2. 6 E. 3. Parl. 4. n. 4 5. 13 E. 3. n. 1. 14 E. 3. n. 1. 14 E. 3. Parl. 21. n. 2. 15 E. 3. n. 2. 17 E. 3. n. 3. 20 E. 3. n. 1. 24 E. 3. n. 1. 25 E. 3. n. 5 8. Stat. 2. n. 4. A law and custome now fit to be revived Fourthly the very Writs of Summons for the Lords and of election of Knights Citizens and Burgesses refutes this grosse mistake requiring them all to appear personally in Parliament on such a day at such a place and there to treat of the great and urgent affairs of the Realm not onely with the King himself but cum Praelatis MAGNATIBUS ET PROCERIBUS dicti Regni nostri with the Prelates Noblemen and Lords of our said Realm And therefore to dream of

to the Commons Sixthly admit the Houses might without any inevitable mischiefes and contradictions be modeled and united into one yet to bring downe the Lords into the Commons House to sit and Vote like Commons with them is no wayes tollerable or to be thought on but with indignation for these reasons First because the whole Commons House it selfe when they present their Speaker to the King and Lords which will be abolished by this union or when any Bills are to be passed by the Royall Assent upon the k Cook 4 Inst p. 28. 33 H. 8. c. 21. 3 Jac. c. 1. beginning and ending of every Parliament and upon some other speciall occasions have alwayes used to goe up and wait upon the House of Lords in person yea to stand bare at their Barre and to send their Members in person * See 5. R. 2. n. 16. up to the Lords upon any Message Cōference or other occasion but never did the whole House of Peeres in any age come downe in person to the Commons House or any Peeres of late bring Messages to them but onely send them by some Assistants as Judges Masters of Chancery c. Therefore now to talk of bringing down the House of Peeres to sit with the Commons in their House all one as to reduce a Noble mans Dining-roome to his Hall or Kitchin and levell the roofe and upper roomes of a house with the lowermost floore is such a dishonour and affront to the Lords that none but degenerate and ignoble spirits can so much as heare or think of it with patience nor no Peere resent it but with just scorne and contempt and rather dye then consent unto it without whose consents it cannot be done without both Houses ruine And to bring up the House of Commons to sit and Vote joyntly with the Peeres would be to advance the Cōmons above their degree not level the Lords to make some men Lords before they are Gentlemen every Commoner no lesse then a Lord which would too much puffe and bladder them with pride and make them slight those whom they represent who being but Commoners cannot be represented by Peeres or any sitting and Voting in the House of Peeres by the true fundamental Law and Custome of Parliaments as Sir l Instit 4. p. 8 46 47. Edward Cooke resolves Secondly if the Lords should bee brought downe into the Commons House which is much like the reducing of the head and shoulders of the naturall body into the belly or legges which would make a Monster and destroy the man there would be no roome for them their Officers and Assistants unlesse enlarged and metamorphosed into another forme Thirdly If the Lords must bee brought downe into the Commons House then the * See Cook 4. Inst p. 14 15. King and Prince as well as they or else they must be totally excluded the Parliament or sit alone by themselves in the House of Lords without any Lords to attend them An indignity which no King or Prince can brooke and no modest Commoner seriously thinke of but with detestation nor Lord nor King consent to but by force and violence and without their voluntary consents it will not be valid but destructive Seventhly The false pretext for it of expediting Bills Ordinances and Votes is an absurd and ignorant fancie of over-hasty spirits who would act all things in a hurry without good deliberation For first nothing ought to bee done in Parliament but upon full and mature debate and deliberation of all the circumstances and probable consequences of it in future time a thing now seldome considered Diu deliberandum quod semel statuendum Festina lente are safe rules in Parliament especially in passing publike Acts and Ordinances in making Warre or Peace or any Nationall Leagues and Agreements Secondly Hasty Dogges bring forth blinde Whelpes and hasty Votes over sudden Councels and Motions lame blinde contradictory unjust and inconsiderate Orders Ordinances Acts which must either be corrected supplyed or repealed by Additionals of which we have had too many experiments since this Parliament which in many Votes Ordinances Orders and Impeachments hath made more haste then good speed and Voted sometimes both absurdities and impossibilities witnesse the Commons Votes for the Tryall of Mac-Guire and Mac-Mohun in the Kings-Bench the very first day of the Terme before any Indictment drawne found or any Jury summoned to finde it for the Tryall of Judge Jenkins in the Kings-Bench by a short day for Treason aleaged to be committed in Wales before any Indictment found in the Country or removed into Court and the like which I only mention to satisfie and answer the Objectors nor to defame the House or Houses whose Honours and Reputations have beene much blemished through the inconsiderate rashnesse of some ignorant Members who poasted on such Votes and Impeachments Thirdly this dividng the Houses will breed infinite disorder and confusion * 4. Instit q. 2. not expedition in their proceedings as the premises manifest and destroy their very formes and method upon which ground Sir * Witnesse Dr Levtons Dr. Bastwicks Mr Burtons my own Mr. Walkers Mr. Foxleys the Chesterwars and many others about Ship-money and other grievances Edward Cooke writes they were first divided Fourthly it will be a great retarding and obstruction to publike Justice especially in Writs of Errour and all such things which the Lords may dispatch or judge without the Commons House where many hundreds of Petitions and businesses heard and Voted above seven yeeres since doe yet stick without report or transmission to the Lords to the great dishonour and scandall of their proceedings and speedy justice which had been dispatched and ended many years past had they first petitioned to the Lords for redresse So as the Lords House is clearly no cause of delay but the Commons rather through their long debates or want of method which debates would bee increased and lengthned by adding of the Lords unto them who can now debate and determine things apart and resolve two or three things or more whiles the Commons are debating one And therefore if delay be the onely cause of reducing the Lords House to the Commons the Commons certainly are rather to be reduced then the Lords and may bee better spared of the two even by k His letter to a friend his letters to Henry Martyn and Cromwel Innocency and Truth justified Englands Birth-right the late Petition of many free-born people of England Lilburnes and his Confederates Libells and Petitions their delayes being not a quarter to one so many nor one quarter so long as the Commons as themselves must and do acknowledge Eightly this whole design is a direct breach of the solemn League and Covenant a subversion of the Law and Custome of Parliaments a device to destroy both Houses under pretext of reducing them into one an engine to dissolve this present and all future Parliaments to alter the fundamentall Lawes and