of the Tower of London bring forth thy Prisoner William Viscount Stafford upon pain and peril shall fall thereon God save the King Whereupon the Lieutenant of the Tower brought the Prisoner to the Bar. Usher of the Black Rod. My Lord Stafford must kneel which he did Lord high Steward Rise my Lord. Then he Arose and stood at the Bar and the Lord High Steward spake to him as followeth My Lord Viscount Stafford THE Commons of England Assembled in Parliament have Impeach'd your Lordship of High Treason and you are brought this Day to the Bar to be Tryed upon that Impeachment You are not Try'd upon the Indictment of Treason found by the Grand Jury tho there be that too in the Case But you are Prosecuted and Pursued by the Loud and Dreadsul Complaints of the Commons and are to be Try'd upon the Presentment which hath been made by the Grand Inquest of the whole Nation In this so Great and Weighty Cause you are to be Judg'd by the whole Body of the House of Peers The Highest and the Noblest Court in This or perhaps in any other part of the Christian World Here you may be sure no False Weights or Measures ever will or can be found Here the Ballance will be exactly kept and all the Grains of Allowance which your Case will bear will certainly be put into the Scales But as it is impossible for my Lords to Condemn the Innocent so 't is equally Impossible that They should clear the Guilty If therefore you have been Agitated by a Restless Zeal to Promote that which you call the Catholick Cause If this Zeal have Engaged you in such Deep and Black Designs as you are Charged with and this Charge shall be fully Prov'd Then you must Expect to Reap what you have Sown for every Work must and ought to Receive the Wages that are due to it Hear therefore with Patience what shall be said against you for you shall have full Time and Scope to Answer it Aud when you come to make your Defence you shall have a very fair and equal Hearing In the mean time the best Entrance upon this Service will be to begin with Reading of the Charge Lord High Steward My Lord if your Lordship find your self infirm and unable to stand your Lordship may have a Chair to ease your self whilst the Charge is Reading and a Chair was brought accordingly and his Lordship sate thereon Clerk of the Parliament Read the Charge Articles of Impeachment of High Treason and other high Crimes and Offences against William Earl of Powis William Viscount Stafford and Henry Lord Arundel of Wardour William Lord Petre and John Lord Bellasis now Prisoners in the Tower of London 1. THat for many years now last past there hath been contrived and carried on by Papists a Trayterous and execrable Conspiracy and Plot within this Kingdom of England and other places to Alter Change and Subvert the Ancient Government and Laws of this Kingdom and Nation and to Suppress the True Religion therein Established and to Extirpate and Destroy the Professors thereof which said Plot and Conspiracy was contrived and carried on in divers Places and by several ways and means and by a great number of Persons of several Qualities and Degrees who Acted therein and intended thereby to Execute and Accomplish the aforesaid Wicked and Traiterous Designs and Purposes That the said William Earl of Powis William Viscount Stafford Henry Lord Arundel of Wardour William Lord Petre and John Lord Bellasis together with Philip Howard commonly called Cardinal of Norfolk Thomas White alias Whitebread commonly called Provincial of the Jesuits in England Richard Strange lately called Provincial of the Jesuits in England Vincent commonly called Provincial of the Dominicans in England James Corker commonly called President of the Benedictines Sir John Warner alias Clare Baronet William Harcourt John Kenis Nicholas Blundel Poole Edward Mico Thomas Bedingfield alias Benefield Basil Langworth Charles Peters Richard Peters John Conyers Sir George Wakeman Thomas Fenwick Dominick Kelly Fitzgerald Evers Sir Thomas Preston William Lovel Jesuits Lord Baltamore John Carrel John Townely Richard Langhorn William Fogarty Thomas Penny Matthew Medbourn Edward Coleman William Ireland John Grove Thomas Pickering John Smith and divers other Jesuits Priests Fryers and other Persons as false Traytors to his Majesty and this Kingdom within the time aforesaid have Traiterously Consulted Contrived and Acted to and for the accomplishing of the said wicked pernitious and Traiterous Designs and for that end did most wickedly and Traiterously agree Conspire and resolve to Imprison Depose and Murder his Sacred Majesty and to deprive him of his Royal State Crown and Dignity and by malicious and advised speaking writing and otherwise declared such their Purposes and Intentions And also to subject this Kingdom and Nation to the Pope and to his Tyrannical Government And to seize and share amongst themselves the Estates and Inheritances of his Majesties Protestant Subjects And to Erect and Restore Abbeys Monasteries and other Convents and Societies which have been long since by the Laws of this Kingdom suppressed for their Superstition and Idolatry and to deliver up and restore to them the Lands and Possessions now vested in his Majesty and his Subjects by the Laws and Statutes of this Realm And also to Found and Erect new Monasteries and Convents and to remove and deprive all Protestant Bishops and other Ecclesiastical persons from their Offices Benefices and Preferments And by this means to destroy his Majesties Person extirpate the Protestant Religion overthrow the Rights Liberties and Properties of all his Majesties good Subjects Subvert the lawful Government of this Kingdom and subject the same to the Tyranny of the See of Rome 3. That the said Conspirators and their Complices and Confederates Traiterously had and held several Meetings Assemblies and Consultations wherein it was Contrived and Designed among them what means should be used and what Persons and Instruments should be Employed to Murder his Majesty And did then and there resolve to effect it by Poisoning Shooting Stabbing or some such like ways and means and offered Rewards and Promises of advantage to several persons to execute the same and hired and imployed several wicked persons to go to Windsor and other places where his Majesty did reside to murder and destroy his Majesty which said persons or some of them accepted such Rewards and undertook the perpetrating thereof and did actually go to the said Places for that end and purpose 4. That the said Conspirators the better to compass their Trayterous Designs have Consulted to Raise and have procured and raised Men Money Horses Arms and Ammunition and also have made Application to and Treated and Corresponded with the Pope his Cardinals Nuncioes and Agents and with other Forreign Ministers and Persons to raise and obtain Supplies of Men Money Arms and Ammunition therewith to make levy and raise War Rebellion and Tumults within this Kingdom and to Invade the same with
whether I should be sworn or no for your Lordship shall not make me be sworn unless my Lords say I should L. H. Stew. I would not offer it if there were any colour of doubt in it Then my Lord was sworn E. of Maclesfeld My Lords I have nothing to say against this man but what he said to me and before a Justice of Peace too for I did take this man when he had run away from my Lord Gerard. He had cheated many of his Servants I catched him on the way running to play his tricks somewhere else and I intercepted him but though I was a Justice of Peace there yet because it was in a manner my own case I would not commit him till I had carried him before another Justice of Peace So the man comes up to me says he My Lord have you a mind to have your Son-in-law bubbled I have been only teaching him how to avoid being cheated I acknowledge my self to be a Cheat and I would teach him to avoid them I am going now into Staffordshire and that was all I intended to his Lordship I am a Rogue I confess it And upon this a Justice of Peace comes in and while they were examining of him we bid some that were by to search him and they found in his pocket false Dice and truly the Justice nor I did not know whether they were true or false Says he You don't know what to do with these but I do This is all I can say but in all the three Counties of Staffordshire Cheshire and Lancashire there are several men that I see here that know his Life better than I do for 't is his common practice and I believe my Lords the Judges must know him for it was his common practice at all Assizes and great Meetings to play these pranks Sir Will. Jones My Lords we will not trouble your Lordships any further as to Robinson if he were here perhaps my Lady would know him but having two such Witnesses I think we need not trouble our selves nor you any more about him L. H. Stew. Have you done with my Lady Gerard Sir Will. Jones Yes and we beg her pardon for this trouble My Lords your Lordships will be pleased to remember there was one Holt was produced as a Witness by my Lord Stafford and your Lordships when you look on your Notes will remember he testified to this purpose That Dugdale sent an Horse for him to Stafford-Town which Horse brought him to the Star-Inne and there Dugdale did offer him Forty pounds to swear That one Mr. Moor carried away Evers the Jesuit My Lords we will call some Witnesses to this Mr. Holt you will find him to be something akin to Mr. Robinson and as we suppose of nothing a better Reputation than he The Witnesses will give you an account of his pranks Call Sampson Rawlins and Lander Rawlins stood up and was sworn L. H. Stew. What is your Name VVitness Sampson Rawlins L. H. Stew. What do you ask him Sir William Jones We desire to ask him if he knows Samuel Holt the Black-smith L. H. Stew. Do you know Holt Rawlins Yes Sir Fr. Winn. Acquaint my Lords what Reputation he is of where he lives and what he is Rawlins He is counted to be a very lewd loose fellow L. H. Stew. Why so Sir Will. Jones What hath he done Rawlins He is counted a drunken lewd fellow Sir Will. Jones Is he of an ill Reputation in the Countrey where he lives Rawlins Yes he is so L. H. Stew. For what Rawlins 'T is said in the Town he keeps another mans wife Sir Will. Jones Is there any other fault he hath Rawlins He said there were none but Rogues would take Mr. Dugdale's part whereas I never knew any harm by Mr. Dugdale and I have known him this fourteen or fifteen years I dealt with him I was Taylor to the Family and he ever paid me very honestly and well Sir VV. Jones Have you heard of Mr. Holt any other ill thing besides what you speak of Rawlins He broke open my Lord Aston's Wine-celler and stole several bottles of Wine wherefore my Lord Aston bid Mr. Dugdale send him to the Goal but he curryed favour with Mr. Dugdale and so kept in with him that he afterwards begged for him of my Lord to forgive him And now he comes to Evidence against Mr. Dugdale that was his sure stedfast friend and saved him from the Goal L. Stafford I would ask this Witness a Question Rawlins And because I took Mr. Dugdale's part saying he was an honest man and he was so to me and all others as far as ever I heard he met me and would have murdered me L. H. Steward When was this Rawlins Since last Term when I was up here And likewise Sawyer took a pot and would have dong'd my brains out Sir Fr. Winn. My Lords I think this man was summoned as a Witness to attend at my Lord Aston's Tryal What occasion brought you to London at that time Rawlins I was subpoena'd up And when I came home to my Wife and Children they grosly abused me and said I was a Rogue because I came up upon His Majesties Service L. Stafford Pray my Lords ask him whether Holt was my Lord Aston's Servant or no. L. H. Stew. Was Holt a Servant to my Lord Aston Rawlins He was a Smith hard by his Gate and he worked to the Family L. H. Stew. Were you subpoena'd up to the Tryal of my Lord Aston Rawlins Yes L. H. Steward And it was for coming to that Tryal he offered to murder you Rawlins Yes I have several Witnesses of it And by the blow that Thomas Sawyer gave me for a good while I could not lay my head on the Pillow Sir Will. Jones Call Thomas Launder but he did not appear being gone away sick Sir Will. Jones Because we would not lose your Lordships time seeing the man we call for is gone away sick we will call a Witness as to another of my Lords Witnesses John Morral Call Thomas Thorne Who was sworn Sir Fran. Winn. My Lords if that other man come by and by we hope your Lordships will give us leave to ask him a Question to the point which we are now gone over But my Lord Stafford did produce one John Morral a Barber that lived at Ridgley who said that money was offered him to swear against Sir James Symons and Mr. Howard and others We call this Witness to give your Lordships an account what this Morral is and how he hath behaved himself in this business Sir W. Jones What do you say about John Morral Do you know him Thorne Yes L. H. Stew. What do you know of him Thorne I know he is a man that use to come often to my Lord Aston's to Tixal to trim him he is a poor fellow that walks up and down the Country and hath little or nothing to live on L. H. Stew. Is he poor and needy
we find it is no new thing look into all the Nations where the Pope hath any Power or a possibility of hope to gain a Power nothing hath been able to stand in their way but they have broken through all the Bonds of Nature and other Obligations to attain their Ends. Look into Spain King Philip there removed his own Son by what means the Story tells us he was Heir apparent but he was a Protestant and there also the Father puts Fire to his own Daughter because she was a Protestant there a Spaniard goes from Spain into Germany to murder and did murder his Brother for no other cause but because he was a Protestant Leave Spain and go into France what Massacres have been committed there under the colour of a Marriage in Queen Elizabeth's time and before that how many hundred Albingenses and Waldenses have been put to the Sword for Religion Come we to our own Country and look into England what hath been done here when Queen Elizabeth had a Successor of another Religion how many Attempts were there made upon her Person to bring that Successor in When King James came to the Crown let us remember the Gunpowder Treason wherein all the Nation was to be destroyed King Lords and Commons together and in Parliament assembled were then to be a Sacrifice a Burnt-offering though they might call it a Peace-offering for these Gentlemen are for Sacrifices of Blood as Peace-offerings to reconcile us to the Pope If this be made out we think their Principles having produced these fruits in other Ages we may believe they would do so now What has been said as History of former times is not offered as Evidence of Fact to the present Case but induces a probability that what hath been done by such persons may be done by them again But my Lords we shall make it clear and bring it home to this Lord that he hath had his Head his Tongue his Hand his Heart and his Purse in this damnable and horrible Contrivance and Treason for the destroying of the King the Government our Religion and our Nation We shall bring it home to him But my part is only to open the general Conspiracy And indeed my Lords it is an heavy burden on my aged Shoulders considering that the Winter of Infirmity and Age is growing so fast upon me My Lords the particulars concerning this Noble Lord because the Credit of it rests on the Testimony only of one man viz. Mr. Oats whose Testimony being taken by Sir Edmunbury Godfrey a Justice of Peace and kept in writing by him then Sir Edmundbury Godfrey was way-laid and murdered by men of the Popish Religion thereby to suppress the Examination that he had taken This startled and opened the eyes of the world to look about us for farther Discovery lest we should be led as Oxen to the slaughter not knowing whether we went Afterward it pleased God to bring some of their own Religion and party to make farther Discovery Whereupon several Jesuits Guilty of the Plot were therefore Prosecuted and brought to Judgment and Death After the Murder of Godfrey several Fables were spread abroad as if he were alive and Married as was declared to several Lords others of the party Reported he had Murdered himself but his Body being found it was hard for the party to invent or tell whether he first strangled himself and then run himself through or first run himself through and then strangled himself that was a Dilemma to disprove their Fables touching Godfrey's Murder It then fell out that Mr. Bedlow came as a second Discoverer whose Testimony Concurred with Oats And then there being two Witnesses as is necessary in case of Treason the Design was to take off Bedlow that there should remain but one a single Witness In order to which Reading tempts Bedlow with Rewards to lessen his former Testimony and qualifies that which he had deposed positively was but matter of hear say For which Reading the Instrument in that Design and Attempt was Indicted and Convicted by three Witnesses and suffered accordingly But then this Attempt upon Bedlow failing the next Attempt was to take off Oats his Testimony by charging him with an Infamous offence for which purpose one Knox is imployed who Suborns Lane and Osborn and they Swore it against Oats But on Re-examination Confess the Subornation and Falshood of their Design and Knox and Lane are therefore Indicted and found Guilty Thus when the Treason was discovered the Murder of an Officer of Justice is made the means to hide it and then False and Infamous stories set on Foot of that Officer to hide that Murder and Perjury and Subornation the means to blast the Discoverers These wicked and ill practices we take to be a second reproof of the Plot both in general and particular the Records of which Convictions are here before your Lordships ready to be proved For Cui bono none would do such wicked practices but to hide a greater Sin and worse Designs if possible will be opened and proved by one to whom that is particularly appointed My Lords we speak this that the World may receive Satisfaction we will let our Evidence be all open and publick in the face of the Sun and shew we go not about by private Subornations though there are endeavours to encounter us by such My Lords If we make out these things here is Matter enough for the Satisfaction of the World as to the general Contrivance But my Lords As you sit here as Judges of this Lord the Prisoner at the Bar we must bring it down to particular Persons and we shall do it even to him that those things which were mentioned in General were his Contrivance at least-wise as a man highly deeply guilty of Conspiring the Kings Death and in order to that of raising an Army and the other things that have been opened My Lords I beseech you to pardon me if I have troubled you too long The Particulars were many and I have had little help to prepare it from any body but my self but I submit my self to your Lordships and hope that what is wanting in me will be supplyed by others that follow and I also hope you will find no defect in our Evidence at all whatsoever may have been in the opening of it Then Sir Francis Winnigton another of the Committee appointed for the Management of the Evidence began as followeth My Lords I Shall begin where Mr. Serjeant Maynard ended and confine my self to this Case as it stands before you and to open the particular Evidence relating to the Lord the now Prisoner at the Bar. My Lords I look upon the Cause of this day to be the Cause of the Protestant Religion and I doubt not but that Plot which has alarm'd all Christendom will be so clearly made out in this Tryal that the most malicious of our Enemies will henceforth want Confidence to deny it That the Religion of the Papists
when we come to the particulars Sir Franc. Winn. My Lords with your Lordships favour we have opened our Case first that we would go on with the general while we are upon that head we will only call those that speak to the general but it may happen that one Witness may speak to both but we shall divide his Testimony when we come to observe upon it Mr. Treby My Lords I take leave to acquaint your Lordships that Mr. Dugdale hath but a low voice and your Lordships will not hear him without a Command of Silence which was done by Proclamation and Mr. Dugdale sworn Mr. Treby Mr. Dugdale take notice We call you now only to the general part of the Plot what Discourses you have heard from Priests in general concerning any part of the Plot. And you are not to give your particular Evidence against this Noble Lord my Lord Stafford till we call you thereunto Lord High Stew. What say you Sir Mr. Dugdale About fifteen or sixteen Years I have been acquainted that there was a Design carrying on for the bringing in the Romish Religion I have at several times by the means of my Ghostly Father that was Mr. Evers been acquainted that there were several Lords and several Priests in several places in England that were to carry it on that is they were to have Mony and Arms ready for those that wanted against the death of the King I have seen several Letters which have come from Paris Rome and St. Omers all relating to this to incourage Mr. Evers and that he should go on to incourage the rest that were ingaged For that purpose I read some of them and intercepted them because they were all directed to me Mr. Evers hath sent me upon Messages sometimes by Letters and sometimes by word of mouth and all tended for the introducing of their Religion that all should be ready with Money and Arms against the Kings Death For I did hear nothing till of late about the killing of the King In particular there came one Letter to Evers from my Lord Stafford to shew that things went on well beyond Sea and hoped they did so here I saw another time some Letters which were also transmitted to my hands by a Messenger that came from Boscobel which did come from Paris and so to St. Omers from whence they came to Harcourt and Harcourt had delivered the Letters to have the opinion of some Lords All which contained advice which they had received from Paris which they counted extraordinary good The purport of these Letters were to shew there was no way could be more likely to do their Work than if any sudden death should happen to the King then to throw it upon the Presbyterians who had killed the old King and were likeliest to be thought to have done this and so they might easily get the Protestants those of the Church of England to join with the Papists against the Presbyterians who would by that become odious and so should weaken the party the more easily to accomplish their design I have of late several times been in company with Priests and other Gentlemen in the Country when they have had Consultations both for the introducing their own Religion aud taking away the Kings life which they did always intend to be about November December or January 78. It was late in the Year but all that Year 78. this was their Consultation I have been sent to the Jesuits some of them particularly to Mr. Vavasor and Mr. Gavan for some Moneys for there was a general Collection and there was the sum of five hundred pounds at one time which I received and gave to Mr. Evers and he returned it to London for the carrying on this design and for discharging an account of Arms and things received from beyond Sea And it was agreed that my Lord Aston Sir James Symons and others should go in October 1678. to dispose of the Arms which they had so received some here and some beyond Sea to the value I heard say of 30000. Moreover I did hear that they were to have men raised there as well as here So I have heard from Mr. Evers and Mr. Gavan and others and I have been also by when it hath been discoursed that the King of France was acquainted with all these Designs and that he would furnish us with men and should not be wanting with all other aid and assistance if there should be any alteration if the King should die or be taken away or to that purpose I have been several times put upon to make Foot-Races to draw people together that they might the better have Discourses together without suspicion I was likewise put in trust by the Jesuits all the while the Plot was carrying on and particularly for two years all the Letters relating to the Plot came to my hand some of which I opened and some I kept in my own hands and particularly I had one that came to my hands which was about the Death of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey for when I carried it to Mr. Evers he said There was one of our Enemies taken out of the way and it was contained in the Letter This night Sir Edmondbury Godfrey is dispatched which by the date of it was the 12. of October 1678. I told him that that would prove a discouragement to us and would be the ruine of all the Design he said not so it would rather prove otherwise for he was one that was active in punishing lewd and debauched persons and it would rather be put upon them than us as done out of Revenge Mr. Treby Pray Sir speak the particular time when that Letter came into Staffordshire Mr. Dugdale The 14. of October 1678. which was Monday Mr. Treby The date of it pray tell us Mr. Dugdale The 12. of October 1678. Mr. Treby The very night that it was done Mr. Dugdale Likewise when I did hear there was like to be an alteration in the Government and having such fair promises I was incouraged to it and was very willing to contribute to the Design and I did then make over an Estate which I had of four hundred pound value for that purpose and for the praying for my Soul And when my Lord Aston and I should come to Account as there was money over and above due to me I did likewise promise because I saw money would be wanting I would give them a hundred pound more There were several other Gentlemen as Mr. Heveningham Sir James Symons my Lord Aston Mr. Draycott Mr. Howard and Mr. Gerard who did to my knowledge contribute towards the carrying on of this Charge for defraying of Money and raising Arms and paying for them And I have seen Letters from beyond Sea that have been to Mr. Evers that all things have been ready as to the Arms and there only wanted Orders how they should be disposed of and I have been several times brought to the Oath of Secrecy for fear I
should disclose it and particularly that time that I went away from my Lord Astons which was on a Monday morning Mr. Evers gave it me about the 18. or 19. of November 1678. And I did then promise by all the promises I could make and upon the Sacrament in his Chamber that I would not disclose it but having others to advise me in it such as could better do it that told me such Oaths were better broken than kept and thereupon I came to discover the thing which I have done to the best of my knowledge I am very loath to charge my memory in particular about times or how many were in company but those that I am sure of but there hath been in company at the Consultation several times Mr. Heveningham Sir James Symons Mr. Vavasor Mr. Petre Mr. Howard and my Lord Aston himself when there hath been speech about the Design for the introducing of Religion and for taking order about money to buy Arms and particularly when my Lord Stafford was by about the Death of the King and that was about September 1678. Mr. Treby Mr. Dugdale you speak of leavying Arms and of the Oath of Secrecy that was given you were there not other Spiritual Weapons used Was there not an Indulgence or such a thing Mr. Dugdale There was an Indulgence about 78. or thereabouts which came through Irelands hands transmitted from beyond Sea and so to Mr Evers and Mr. Gavan was put on to publish it which he did one time at Boscobel And it was likewise at all private Chappels that whosoever was active for the introducing the Romish Religion or killing the King should have a free Pardon of all his sins Mr. Foley Pray declare what Arguments have been used by your Priests to induce you to this Design Lord High Steward Raise your voice that we may hear what you ask Mr. Foley We would know what Arguments have been used to perswade to this design Mr. Dugdale They have told me in their Meetings the King was an Excommunicated Heretick and he was out of the Pale of the Church therefore it was lawful to kill him and it was no more than the killing of a dog Sir John Trevor My Lords I desire to ask him one Question further what he hath heard about a Massacre that was intended L. H. Stew. Have you heard of any Massacre that was to be Mr. Dugdale I have heard that about the time the King should be killed several should be provided with Arms and such Instruments and rise all of a sudden at an hours warning and to come in upon the Protestants and cut their Throats that was one proposal and if any did escape there should be an Army to cut them off in their flight Mr. Treby My Lords I desire to ask him one Question further whether he ever knew or heard of Mr. Oates and Bedloe till the Plot was detected Mr. Dugdale I have heard of them from Priests as messengers intrusted by them but no otherwise L. H. Steward When did you hear that Mr. Dugdale I have formerly declared it Mr. Treby Ay when L. H. Steward Before the discovery or after Mr. Dugdale Before the discovery Mr. Treby My Lords the reason of the Question and the use we make of it is this We charge the Papists with the Conspiracy of a Plot and they charge our Witnesses with a Conspiracy to accuse Now it appears that Mr. Dugdale had not any knowledge of the other Witnesses and only had heard of them as persons concern'd so it could not possibly be a joint contrivance amongst them Sir John Trevor My Lords I desire to ask this Question Whether Mr. Dugdale hath seen any Letters from Whitebread to Evers and what instructions were in those Letters to Evers about the persons to be concerned and what kind of Creatures he was to imploy in this great Design of theirs Mr. Dugdale I saw a Letter from Whitebread to give Mr Evers a caution who he did employ or trust in the Design for he told him there had been good care taken therein hitherto and it were no matter whether they were Gentlemen of Quality or not so they were stout and trusty or to that purpose L. H. Steward What should they be trusty for Mr. Dugdale For the killing the King L. H. Steward Was that said plainly in the Letter Mr. Dugdale To the best of my remembrance in those very words L. H. Steward Was there no Cypher or Character Mr. Dugdale There was no Cypher or Character that I know of nothing but two letters for his Name Mr. Treby My Lords I desire Mr. Dugdale may give an account of those Papers he speaks of What became of them and tell us the reason why they were not produced Mr Dugdale My Lords when I was by the instruction of Mr. Evers to take my flight I conveyed all my Papers that either belonged to him or my self for the carrying on of the Plot and carryed them to an House not far remote from my Lord Aston's and by the help of two Maids Mr. Treby Name them Mr. Dugdale Elizabeth Eld and Anne Eld. And they two did prepare a Fire in their Chamber for that purpose and they assisted me to burn them I was in a great consternation and great fear in regard I must fly and abscond my self and indeed I did it with Tears in my Eyes And whilst we were burning of the Papers one of them spy'd a little Paper-book by chance and she asked me whether that should be burnt I told her no burn not that for there is no Treason in it With that one of them ask'd me is there any Treason in the rest and I put them off to the best of my knowledge and would not give them a direct answer Sir John Trevor Why did you consent to burn them Mr. Dugdale Because I knew they would discover me and others that were concerned in the Plot. Sir Fr. Winn. Your Lordships will be pleased to observe the burning of the Letters was before he discovered the Plot or any thing Mr. Sacheverell My Lords We desire he may be asked one Question he told your Lordships of the Letter that came into Staffordshire about the Death of Sir Edmonbury Godfrey but he hath not told you of the reason why he was to be taken away We desire he will let your Lordships know what reasons they gave for it Mr. Dugdale My Lords I was desirous to know how things went being concerned as well as Mr. Evers and I asked what the reason was they took away his life Mr. Evers told me that there was a Message sent to Mr. Coleman to desire him that he would not reveal what he knew concerning the Plot or any thing of that nature Mr. Sacheverell From whom was that Message sent Mr. Dugdale From the Duke of York And Coleman did send word back again What was it the nearer for he had been so foolish as to reveal all to Sir Edmondbury Godfrey who
knowledge Sir John Trevor Then the next Witness we desire may be called is Mr. Bernard Dennis Mr. Serj. Maynard This Witness we call now is to confirm what Dr. Oats hath said that he was at Validolid and other places in Spain he will be short Lord High Steward Call you Oats again Sir Franc. Winn No my Lord We call Dennis to confirm what Dr. Oats hath said He hath given your Lordship an account that he was in Spain we now produce one that saw him when he was there and so confirms the Evidence given by him Then Mr. Dennis was sworn Mr. Treby Mr. Dennis Do you give their Lordships an Account of your Discoursing with Dr. Oats in Spain or any where else abroad and where L. H. Steward Stay a little Do you know Mr. Oats Mr. Dennis Yes my Lord. L. H. Steward How long have you known him Mr. Dennis I knew him in the year 77. L. H. Steward Where Mr. Dennis At Validolid L. H. Steward Did you see him there was he a Student there Mr. Dennis Yes my Lord. Lord High Stew. Was he known by the name of Oats Mr. Dennis Yes my Lord he was Sir Franc. Winn. My Lord We desire he may tell his knowledge of Mr. Oats what conversation he had with him in Spain Mr. Dennis My Lords I was in Spain in the City of Victoria and leaving the City of Victoria in the month of June I took my course to Madrid and passing through the City of Validolid going into the Convent of the Dominicans there came an Irishman a Priest of Ireland out of the City to seo me and there he told me there was a Student of the Jesuits by name Mr. Oats an Englishman and I understanding this went into the Colledge of the Jesuits to see Mr. Oats and there had conversation with Mr. Oats and in the conversation I had with him there he told me that he was a Vicar in Kent and that he was Chaplain to a great Nobleman in England by name Howard and that he went out of England by the consent of the Jesuits in England being converted by them to the Roman Catholick Faith and that his going into Spain was to fit himself for the Society of the Jesuits and understanding my resolution was to go to Madrid he did desire me to carry a Letter to the Archbishop of Tune one James Lench an Irishman who lived at Madrid and further he lent me four pieces of Eight to defray my Journey to Madrid and desired me to pay the money to the Procurator of the Jesuits at Madrid and in carrying this Letter to the Archbishop when I came there I got a Dominican Fryer of Ireland by name Humphry Delphin to go with me and see the Archbishop at his lodging and going in I delivered him the Letter in the presence of the Dominican and he perused it in my presence and in the presence of a Priest that waited upon him and finishing the Contents of the Letter as I suppose with a smiling Countenance he turned about and said Sirs the Contents of this Letter is that Mr. Oats is desirous to receive the Order of Priesthood from me or at my hands and if it be so it will be much in our way and this man will be a fit man for our purpose for said he further Dr Oliver Plunket Primate of Ireland is resolved this year or with the next Convenience to bring in a French Power into Ireland and thereby to support the Roman Catholicks in England and Ireland and if it please God I my self without any delay will go into Ireland to assist that pious Work All this Discourse between us and the Archbishop and between Oats and me was in July 77. And there I did speak and converse with Mr. Oats All this I can testifie for truth on the behalf of Mr. Oats who was then a Student in the Colledge of Validolid and had no other name nor title Mr. Foley I desire himself may tell your Lordships what Religion he is of Lord High Steward What Religion are you of Mr. Dennis I am a Dominican Fryer my Lord. Lord High Steward Are you Mr. Dennis My Lords I am Lord High Steward At this time Mr. Dennis Yes my Lords Mr. Serj. Maynard He hath a Pardon my Lords Mr. Treby This hath been controverted my Lords whether Mr. Oats ever was in Spain we desire to make it out plain to the world for the Confirmation of his Evidence Therefore we ask him again Do you know the person of Mr. Oats Mr. Dennis Yes I do Mr. Treby Is this person that gave Evidence last before you the same person you saw at Validolid Mr. Dennis Yes it is Mr. Sacheverel My Lords we desire to ask of him why he had the four pieces of Eight of Mr. Oats Lord High Steward Why had you that money of Oats Mr. Dennis For to defray my Journey to Madrid Lord High Stew. Was that all you had Mr. Dennis Yes my Lords Mr. Sacheverel We pray he may be asked how he came to be so needy Mr. Dennis My Lords I was not altogether needy but it is very certain Religious persons especially of my Order cannot carry any money about them but what is requisite for their Journey and that which may be removed from place to place Sir John Trevor I desire to ask him did he see any more money that Dr. Oats had Mr. Dennis I did see Dr. Oats in his Chamber in the Colledge at Validolid when he delivered me the four pieces of Eight to draw out a Drawer of a Table in his Chamber and out of the Drawer he pulled a Bag of money which was a very considerable Sum of money and I am certain he did not want money there then Mr. Treby My Lords I think we have done with him if my Lord please to ask him any Question he may Lord Stafford But only one Question for I never saw the man in my life I desire he may be asked whether he be still of the Romish Religion Sir John Trevor My Lords We have not yet done with him the Question we would ask him is this whether he hath heard of any money that was gathered in Ireland for the support of this Plot Lord High Stew. The Question asked of you have you heard of any money gathered in Ireland for the support of this Plot Mr. Dennis I have both heard and seen of it Lord High Steward When and where Mr. Dennis My Lords in the year 68. I entred into the Order of the Dominicans in Ireland and in the same year there arrived at Dublin a Franciscan Fryer Brother to the late Earl of Carlingford and arriving there he made several Collectors for the levying a competent sum of money out of every Convent and Religious House My Lords the Collectors were by name John Reynolds alias Landy and John Berne and arriving at the County of Sligoe in the month of May. Lord High Stew. What year Mr. Dennis 68. And
when the Collectors came to the Convent of our Fryers in Sligoe all the Fryers gathered together into a room and these Collectors coming in did read their Commission given them from one James Taaffe as they said and I was there personally present though a Novice and upon reading their Commissions they said Forty Shillings was to be paid by the Prior and the Fryers of that Convent and the Provincial of the Order of the Dominicans questioned the Power of the said Reynolds and Berne and so did the Prior and I asked why the money was levyed they gave answer That that levy and several other levyes was to encourage the French King in whose Kingdom were several Bishops of Ireland Clergymen and others whose business it was to provoke the King to bring an Army to invade Ireland when ever time should serve Lord High Stew. Have you done with him now Mr. Treby Yes Lord High Stew. Will your Lordship ask him any Questions Lord Stafford My Question is only whether he profess himself of the Church of Rome or a Protestant Mr. Dennis I am a Roman Catholick still my Lord. L. High Steward Are you Mr. Dennis I am my Lords Lord Stafford Then I have no more to say Sir John Trevor Then we call Mr. Jenison Who was sworn Mr. Treby Mr. Jenison you have been among the Papists and you have had great confidence among them pray declare what you know of their Designs for the Destruction of the Protestant Religion or the means of doing it whether by the Murder of the King or what other means tell your whole knowledge Mr. Jenison My Lords In the beginning of the year 78. I have heard Mr. Ireland and Mr Thomas Jenison both Jesuits speak of a Design they had to gain a toleration of Conscience for their Party in England and the way then designed to get it was by procuring a great Sum of Money from their Party and by bribing the then Parliament I have heard them likewise discourse of securing the Duke of York's Succession and that they told me was to be done by procuring of Commissions to be granted to those of their Party to be ready to rise upon the Death of the King I likewise have heard them discourse of the necessity and usefulness to their Party of the Alteration of the Government established and that their Religion could never flourish till that was done and this Kingdom altered according to the French Model In the month of June 78 I was at Mr. Ireland's Chamber and there happening a discourse that the Roman Catholick Religion was like to come into England Mr. Ireland did then say there was but one that stood in the way and that it was an easie thing to Poyson the King and that Sir George Wakeman might easily and opportunely do it I asked Mr. Ireland whether Sir George Wakeman was the Kings Physician His answer was No but he was the Queens and so might have an opportunity to do it In the month of August the same year the day that I came from Windsor I went to Mr. Ireland's Chamber and I found he was newly come from Staffordshire and was drawing off his Boots on the frame of a Table he asked me whence I was come I told him from Windsor He inquired of me about the Diversions of the Court I told him I understood His Majesty did take delight in Hawking and Fishing but chiefly in Fishing and that he went accompanied only with two or three early in the morning Then Mr. Ireland replyed He were easily taken off or removed to which I answered God forbid being surprized at that time O said he I say not that it is lawful Then there happened some interruption to our Discourse about Staffordshire then we fell into a Discourse of their Religion that he said was suddenly to come into England and he asked me if I would be one of those that would go to Windsor to assist to take off the King I told him no then he told me he would remit the 20 l. I owed him if I would go to Windsor to be one of those that were to take off the King My Lords I told him I would have no hand in any such matter and that I would not for twenty times 20 l. have any hand in the Death of the King said he Would you do nothing for the bringing in of our Religion I told him I thought it would never come in by blood I told him further God forgive me if the King were taken off so well and good but I would have nothing to do with it He left not the Discourse there but asked me if I knew any Irishmen that were stout and couragious I told him yes I did and named Captain Levallian Mr. Karney Mr. Broghall and Mr. Wilson all Gentlemen of my acquaintance about Grays-Inn When I named these he asked me if I would go along with them to Windsor to assist them in taking off the King I told him I did not think any man of Estate would ingage in such a matter that I was Heir to an Estate my Brother being a Priest and that Captain Levallian was Heir to a very good Estate and therefore I did believe he would not do such a thing unless the Pique which he had to the King or Religion might move him to it My Lords be approved of these persons and said he knew the first two of them Levallian and Karney and he set down as I remember the other two Names in writing He told me he was going to the Club to Mr. Coleman and Mr. Levallian and Mr. Karney at that time and then asked me for the Money the Twenty pounds that I owed him He told me he wanted Fourscoure Pounds and he desired me that I would return it as soon as I came into the Countrey Now my Lords the same day that I received this Twenty pound of Ireland I went with Mr. Thomas Jenison the Jesuit to Harcourts Chamber to give the Fathers thanks for the Loan of the Money and there Mr. Jenison falling into Discourse on that common Topick of their Religion coming into England he did then use that Expression which Dr. Oats hath in his Narrative If C. R. would not be R. C. he should not be long C. R. And he did interpret it thus in Latine Si Carolus Rex non esset Rex Catholicus non foret din Carolus Rex And he did add my Lords upon the Discourse that if the King were Excommunicated or Deposed he was not longer King and it was no sin or no great sin to take him off and if it were discovered who did it two or three might perhaps suffer but denying the Fact the matter soon would be blown over My Lords about two Months after the Mustering the Forces upon Hounslowe-Heath Mr. Thomas Jenison did tell me he had a matter of great Consequence to impart to me that there was a Design on foot so laid as that it could not well be
discovered and that the greatest Papists the greatest Catholicks in England were in the Design That the Queen and the Duke were in it and that several Lords by name my Lord Bellasis my Lord Powis my Lord Arundel of Wardour and others I believe my Lord Stafford was named but I cannot be positive in that At that time my Lords I did wish I had had a Commission in the new raised Levies that were Mustered on Hounslowe-Heath he told me he would procure me a Commission from the Duke of York and that there was a new Army to be raised to bring in the Catholick Religion but he did say he would tell me more particulars after my receiving the Sacrament of Secresie and I did understand by him that that Commission was not to be sent till the taking off the King was effected but being I was surpâ—ised at it he would not tell me the whole matter but he desired me to come and receive the Sacrament at Sir Philip Tyrwhytts in Blomesbury and then he would acquaint me with the whole Affair My Lords being in Berkshire about the Month of December 78 at Madam Halls in Shinefield Parish one Mr. Cuffil a Jesuit came into our Company It was about the Tryal of Coleman and Mr. Cuffil did then say That he thought Mr. Coleman was infatuated upon the Discovery of the Plâ—t to give notice to Mr. Harcourt Mr. Ireland and Mr. Fenwick and the other Jesuits to burn or secure their Papers and yet not to secure his own My Sister Hall was present at this Discourse and Mr. Cuffil did then further say that Bellarmine did draw a Sentence out of the Scripture to favour the Popes Authority of Excommunicating Depriving and Deposing Temporal Princes and the saying was this Quòd Papa habeat eandem Potestatem super Reges quam Jehoiada habuit super Athaliam And that there were other corroborating Testimonies among the Fathers for it Mr. Treby My Lords we desire to ask him whether ever he heard of Mr. Oats being in the Plot or being thought Trust-worthy among them Mr. Jenison Yes my Lords I did L. H. Stew. When did you hear it and of whom Mr. Jenison Of my Brother Thomas Jenison the Jesuit L. H. Stew. When did he tell you so Mr. Jenison About the latter end of July 78. when there was a Discourse of a Design and that the greatest Papists were in it he said Mr. Oats a Parson newly come over to them was in that Design I answered I did wonder that he would trust a reconciled Enemy he answered That being once reconciled they were more Zealous and Trusty I submitted to his Opinion and instanced in Dr. Godwyn and Dr. Bayley that were Protestants and afterwards came over to the Church of Rome Mr. Treby We have done with him my Lord. L. H. Stew. Will your Lordship ask him any Questions my Lord Stafford L. Staff No my Lord. Sir Fr. Win. My Lords I would only observe the time when he says his Brother told him of the Design that it was about the time of the Mustering of the Forces upon Hounslowe-Heath and that he was then told Mr. Oats was in the Plot I only observe it now for the end of the Case in point of time L. H. Stew. He says it was in July Mr. Jenison It was two Months after the Mustering of the Forces about the latter end of July L. H. Stew. Before the Discovery Mr. Jenison Yes L. H. Stew. Did you know Oats at that time Mr. Jenison No my Lords I was not acquainted with him Sir John Trevor Did you not see him then Mr. Jenison Yes I saw him at Irelands Chamber Sir John Trevor When was that Mr. Jenison The latter end of April or the beginning of May. L. H. Stew. You say you did not know him in July How then can you say you saw him before Mr. Jenison I did not know him I only saw him come into Irelands Chamber and whisper for sometime two or three minutes and then they told me that that was Mr. Oats a Parson newly come over to them a brisk jolly man and worthy my acquaintance L. H. Stew. Is this the same man you saw there Mr. Jenison My Lords I can't remember his face for he was gone out when I was told of him L. H. Stew. Why you know Mr. Oats now Mr. Jenison Yes I do L. H. Steward Do you know him to be the same man that you saw then Mr. Jenison I can't tell that Sir John Trevor My Lords he says Mr. Oats only came in for three or four minutes and his back was towards him and his Brother told him when he was gone who it was Mr. Jenison I only knew his Name from my Brother Mr. Treby And I presume your Lordships will observe this was at the very time of the Jesuits Consult Sir John Trevor We desire this Gentleman may tell your Lordships who his Brother is and what Profession he is of Mr. Jenison My Brother was a Jesuit brought up at St. Omers L. H. Steward Your Brother is dead and died in Newgate Mr. Jenison Yes he did so L. H. Steward Pray recollect your self again When was it that you saw the man they called Oats at the Jesuits Chamber Mr. Jenison My Lords It was in the year 78 the latter end of April or the beginning of May. And I will tell you why I apprehend it to be that time My Brother being a Priest lived with Sir Phillip Tyrwhitt in Lincolnshire and in that year in Lent he came to Town with my Lady and that Family and he and I used to Dine together at the Fish Ordinary at Pedleys And about three weeks or a month after that time when he came to Town I was at Mr. Irelands Chamber and there was a Gentleman whom they told me was Oats L. H. Stew This you say was the latter end of April or beginning of May 78 for the time is material upon your Oath you say it Mr. Jenison Yes my Lords I do L. H. Stew. You say it was at Ireland's Chamber Mr. Jenison Yes my Lords Sir Fr. Win. My Lords will you give us leave to ask him one short Question because some of the Gentlemen doubt of it we would ask it again what his Brother was whether he was a Jesuit or no Mr. Jenison I have heard him own it my Lords L. H. Stew. Whom do you call next Gentlemen Mr. Treby If it please your Lordships we shall in the next place produce our Evidences that are matters of Record and we desire your Lordships advice and direction how we are to minister the same whether your Lordships will have them all read 〈…〉 of them and let them be left with your Lordships L. 〈…〉 〈…〉 Records are they Mr. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 are the Records of the Attainder of Coleman Ireland and the other Conspirators L. H. Stew. The Fact is so notorious that they were Attainted and Executed That the reading of a word will serve the turn Sir
Religion our King and his Protestant Subjects And 't is even impossible that this Design so big could be conducted without the concurrence of such persons as this Noble Lord at the Bar. It could not be carried on by less and lower men And it were a wonder that a person so servently affected and addicted as this Lord is to that Party should not be in at so general a Design of the Party But this indeed is but presumptive Evidence which will induce a moral persuasion We shall now produce such positive Evidence as will make a judicial certainty and will abundantly suffice to convince your Lordships and convict this Lord. The Particulars you will hear out of the mouths of the Witnesses whom we shall call They will testifie what share this Lord had in almost all the Parts and Articles in our Charge contriving and contracting for the Murder of the King levying Arms c. And first we call Mr. Dugdale L. Stafford My Lords I conceive I have good ground to except against this man for a Witness for my own particular I know myself as clear â—nd free as any one here but I will not except against him now but reserve it against the time when I come to make my Defence and therefore admit him to be sworn provided my Lords that he look me full in the face L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford what is your Exception against this man that he may not be a Witness L. Stafford I do admit him to be sworn I say nothing now against him Mr. Treby He is sworn already L. H. Stew. You swore him to give Evidence as to the general Plot you did not swear him as to the particulars against my Lord Stafford Sir John Trevor We are content he shall be sworn again we pray he may be sworn Sir Will. Jones 'T is true my Lords we did divide the Evidence into two parts but his Oath was not divided if your Lordships please you may swear them all over again if it may be any satisfaction but I think it was never seen before Then Mr. Dugdale was sworn L. H. Stew. There is Mr. Dugdale come Sir what say you L. Staff Really he is so changed I do not know him Mr. Dugd My Lord I have Witnesses to prove that you know me L. Staff I beg your Lordships that he may look me in the face and give his Evidence as the Law is Sir John Trevor My Lords if this Noble Lord the prisoner at the Bar will have this Witness to look him continually in the face the Court will not hear half his Evidence We desire he may address himself as the Law is to your Lordships and the Judges L. Staff I desire the Letter of the Law which says my Accuser shall come face to face Mr. Dugd. My Lords I am willing to do as your Lordships shall order L. H. Steward My Lord you do see the Witness that is enough for face to face and you make no legal exception against him why he should not be heard L. Staff Very well my Lord I submit Mr. Dugd. My Lords I have for some years past whilst I was a Servant with my Lord Aston been acquainted and frequently had Discourses with my Lord Stafford before we came to discourse any thing concerning the Plot on foot Lately in 78. my Lord coming down into the Countrey it was either in August or September the latter end of August or the beginning of September L. Staff I beseech your Lordships he may name the times L. H. Stew. My Lord if your Lordship please do not interrupt the Witnesses but wherein he is short do you ask him the Question when it comes to your turn I will bring it to as much certainty as I can Mr. Dugd. There was a meeting at Tixal where there were several present L. H. Steward When Mr. Dugdale It was in September or the latter end of August L. H. Stew. What year Mr. Dugdale 78. My Lords I had then by Mr. Evers means admittance to hear because of my incouragement what the Discourse was at that time It was to debate and determine upon the former Resolutions both beyond Sea and at London before both to take away the life of the King and to introduce their Religion of which I was then one My Lord Stafford was there present and did with the rest consent to it Afterwards my Lord Stafford being at one Mr. Abnets of Stafford one Sunday morning in September came to my Lord Aston's House to Mass I met with my Lord Stafford at some distance from the Gate and my Lord speaking to me when he alighted off from his Horse told me it was a very sad thing they could not say their Prayers but in an hidden manner but e're long we should have our Religion established which was much to my joy at that time After that time my Lord Stafford was sometimes at Stafford and sometimes at Tixal I will not bâ— positive as to a day but I think it was about the middle of September My Lord Stafford sent for me to his lodging Chamber as he had several times before sent for me and said he had had great Commendations of me from Mr. Evers that I was Faithful and Trusty Lord Stafford My Lords I desire I may have Pen Ink and Paper allowed me L. H. Stew. Ay God forbid you should be denied that Give my Lord Pen Ink and Paper I hope your Lordship hath one to assist you that takes Notes for you if you have not you have lost a great deal of time already L. Staff There was one all day yesterday my Lords I desire he may speak his Evidence over again L. H. Stew. Let him begin his Evidence again for my Lord had not Pen Ink nor Paper which he ought to have to help his memory Mr. Dugdale I may miss as to the words but the matter of Fact I shall repeat my Lords I have been frequently acquainted whilst I was a Servant at my Lord Aston's with my Lord Stafford coming to my Lords House in the Counâ—rey and my Lord being several times there I came to that Intimacy by Mr. Evers means that my Lord would frequently discourse with me About the latter end of August or some day in September my Lord Stafford my Lord Aston and several other Gentlemen were in a Room in my Lord Aston's House and by the means of Mr. Evers I was admitted to hear for my incouragement and there I heard them in that Debate at that time fully determine a Resolution upon all the Debates that had been beyond Sea and at London before That it was the best way they could resolve on to take away the life of the King as the speediest means to introduce their own Religion After sometime my Lord being at Stafford at Mr. Abnets L. H. Steward Was my Lord Stafford at that meeting where they debated to kill the King Mr. Dugdale My Lord was there L. H. Steward Was he consenting to
he knew of the Plot 15 or 16 years ago if I be not mistaken he says so Mr. Dugd. My Lords if your Lordships please to give me leave to explain my self further it was not for taking away the life of the King but for making ready against the King died with Men and Arms. L. Staff My Lords he says in the latter end of August or beginning of September I told him such and sucâ— things I desire he may name the day that may be many days and I may prove I was not there and I can prove for all August and a good while in September therefore I desire he may name the day L. H. Steward My Lord Stafford I come thus near on purpose to serve your Lordship that you may not strain your voice too much but I am not so happy as to apprehend what it is you say L. Staff My Lords I say he speaks of the latter end of August or beginning of September which is too great a latitude and I conceive more than ought to be given in such a matter of importance as this is to me I desire he may name the day for he may name days perhaps that I was not there L. H. Steward Look you Mr. Dugdale my Lord does desire if you can you would be a little more particular than about the latter end of August or the beginning of September if you can remember the day tell it us Mr. Dugd. I cannot remember particular days it being a thing I then took no account of only this I do remember by a remarkable circumstance that one time was either the 20. or 21. of September 78. L. H. Stew. That was the time of your coming into his Chamber and his offering you five hundred pound Mr. Dugd. It was so but other meetings I dare not charge to a day Lord Stafford How then can I make my Defence Mr. Dugdale I will stand to that time Lord Stafford How my Lords can I be able to give an account of it I shall prove to your Lordships that he once said it was in August now he says it was in August or September I beseech you that he may positively stand to the month if not to the day Mr. Dugdale I speak as neer as I can Lord Stafford But he says the 20. or 21. particularly Mr. Dugdale Thereabouts I am sure it was Lord Stafford Look you he will be positive in nothing Mr. Dugdale I will stand to that time Lord Stafford If he swears false in one thing I hope upon proof of that your Lordships will believe he may be false in all I pray he may be asked what hour of the day it was whether it was morning or afternoon L. H. Steward He is positive only to the 20. or 21. of September the time when he says you called for him into your Chamber and offered him five hundred pound to kill the King would your Lordship ask him whether it were in the forenoon or afternoon Lord Stafford Yes my Lord I would Lord High Steward Was it in the forenoon or in the afternoon Mr. Dugdale It was in the forenoon for I did formerly speak of that he was dressing himself when I came in L. H. Steward Then that is answered positively Lord Stafford My Lords he says one Sunday morning I came to my Lord Astons to Mass I desire you would please to ask him whether ever he saw Mr. Evers and me in his life alone together L. H. Steward Have you seen my Lord Stafford and Mr. Evers ever together alone Mr. Dugdale Several times I have seen them walking together in the Garden and in the Walks at my Lord Astons and I have been with them my self when there hath been only them two besides L. H. Stew. That is answered fully will your Lordship ask him any thing else Lord Stafford He says he was to go to London in October with me I stand not upon that till I come to make my Answer but I take it he says the 20. or 21. of September when I offered him five hundred pound in my Chamber to kill the King that he went presently to Evers to speak with him about it Lord High Stew. As doubting the payment of the money and he told him that Harcourt and Ireland would pay it Lord Stafford Was it the same day pray ask him my Lords Mr. Dugdale I do not say it was the same day but it was the next time I could come to speak with him Lord High Steward He tells you it was as soon as he could speak with him Lord Stafford He said before it was presently after he went from me I desire your Lordships would take notice how he contradicts himself in every circumstance Lord High Stew. What say you did you go presently to Mr. Evers after my Lord Stafford had made the offer Or was it the same day or the next day Mr Dugdale To the best of my remembrance it was the same day I can't say positively Lord Stafford My Lords I have no other Questions with Dugdale Sir John Trevor Then my Lords we will call another Witness Lord High Steward Have you no more to say to Dugdale my Lord Lord Stafford Not at present till I come to make my defence Lord High Stew. God forbid but you should have leave to say all that you can for your self Mr. Treby Then set up Dr. Oats Do your Lordships require that he should be sworn again Lord Stafford I desire nothing nor propose it if he will declare upon his Oath that he took yesterday Lord High Stew. Heark you Dr. Oats This is but a continuation of the Proceedings yesterday you are upon the same Oath now that you were then and what you say this morning will be taken to be upon the same Oath Mr. Treby Dr. Oats upon the Oath you have taken yesterday Lord High Stew. Pray swear him again which was done Mr. Treby Dr. Oats Pray speak your knowledge of my Lord Stafford's being ing aged in the Design Dr. Oats I desire I may be left to my own method L. H. Steward Go on in your own method Dr. Oats My Lords in the year 67. there were divers attempts upon the life of the King as the Jesuits told me and in the year 74. there was an attempt upon the account of the Kings withdrawing the Indulgence in 74. and 75. in the year 1677. whilst I was in Spain I met with several letters signed Stafford wherein my Lord Stafford did assure the Jesuits in Spain that were of the Irish Nation how zealous he should appear in the promoting of the Catholick Design My Lords in the year 77. I went to St. Omers and I came there in December My Lords in that year I being ordered to look over the Papers and put them in order I found several Letters signed Stafford wherein my Lord Stafford did intimate to the Fathers that whereas there had been some difference betwixt him and the Society for several years
the business was reconciled by one Seignior Con who came over into England in the year 76. to reconcile the great Difference that was betwixt the Jesuits and the secular Clergy and between the Benedictine Monks and the Jesuits My Lords my Lord Stafford upon the perswasion of this Seignior Con as he does intimate in his letter does assure the Jesuits of his fidelity and his zeal My Lords in the year 78. I found letters from my Lord Stafford wherein he does blame Mr. Coleman's openness and his being too publick in the great Affair and that Mr. Coleman was pleased to communicate several great secrets to men of whose Fidelity his Lordship was not secure My Lords in the year 78. in the month of June my Lord Stafford the Prisoner at the Bar came to Mr. Fenwick and there received a Commission from him to pay an Army that was to be raised for the promoting of the Catholick Interest and he did assure Mr. Fenwick that he was going down into Staffordshire and there he did not question but he should have a good account how the Catholicks stood affected and he did not question but to give a good account how Affairs stood in Staffordshire Shropshire and Lancashire and this Commission to my Lord Stafford was as neer as I can remember to be Pay-Master-General of the Army My Lords among other Discourses with my Lord at the Bar he was discoursing about my Lord Duke of Norfolk and my Lord Arundel his Son and after several other passages he Fenwick was asking of him how my Lord Arundel came to have a Jesuit in his House My Lord Stafford did say that my Lord of Peterborough his Father in Law was instrumental in it on purpose to oblige the Duke of York for my Lord Arundel as I have been told kept Father Symonds in his House who to my knowledge was a Jesuit But my Lords he came to Mr. Fenwicks my Lord Stafford did by the name of Mr. Howard of Effingham L. H. Steward Were you at Fenwicks when my Lord Stafford came to his Chamber Dr. Oats Yes my Lords L. H. Steward Look upon my Lord Stafford is that the same Person Dr. Oats It is the same Gentleman that came there by the name of Howard of Effingham L. H. Steward And he took the Commission Dr. Oats Yes he did so L. H. Steward And he promised to effect it Dr. Oats Yes And he said that he was then going down into the Countrey and he did not doubt but at his return Grove should do the business L. H. Steward Who said so Fenwick Dr. Oats No my Lord Stafford And says Fenwick to my Lord Stafford again Sir â—tis fit that some should be here present least you fail of your Expectation or to that purpose 'T is two years since and I cannot remember the words but my Lord Stafford did say he was of necessity to go into the Country at that time And there he did write a letter to St. Omers in which he did excuse himself about a young man that was to be sent to the Jesuits Colledge whom he had taken care of another way And he desired their excuse but he would be as faithful to them as any body for all that And the same hand that wrote that letter by all the comparing I could make in my thoughts wrote all the other Letters that I saw at St. Omers and in Spain My Lords I saw my Lord Stafford at Dr. Perrotts I think verily it was in June or July 78. it was before the rising of the Parliament that sat that Summer and my Lord Stafford was discoursing of a Son he was to send over to Lisbon and he went over by the name of Sir John Stafford And after this Discourse was over they fell into a Discourse of the Affairs in hand and my Lord was mighty glad there was so good a Correspondence and Concord though my Lords it was not very great for the Jesuits have an irreconcileable Quarrel with the rest of the Clergy But my Lord did hope that their fair Correspondence might tend highly to the advancing the Catholick Cause But my Lords I have one thing more to speak as to the Discourse at Fenwicks Chamber speaking of the King he said He hath deceived us a great while and we can bear no longer Lord High Stew. Who said so Dr. Oats My Lord Stafford the Gentleman at the Bar. Lord High Stew. When was that At Dr. Perrotts Dr. Oats No I speak of a passage at Fenwick's which I had forgot My Lords this is all I can remember at present M. Foley My Lords I desire he may give an Account what letters my Lord Stafford sent to Fenwick and Ireland to pay money Dr. Oats There was some money returned but it was no great Sum and it was about private business Mr. Morgan was to receive it I chanced to have the money in my own keeping Mr. Fenwick gave it me to pay to Mr. Morgan and the letter in which the Sum was mentioned did give them an Account for it was out of Staffordshire that he found things stand in a very good state there but I being not within Mr. Morgan called on Mr. Fenwick for the money which I returned to him when he had paid it Lord Stafford My Lords I do in the first place desire to know where Mr. Fenwick lived Lord High Stew. Where did Mr. Fenwick live when you saw my Lord at his Chamber and the Commission delivered Dr. Oats His Lordship I suppose knows very well where he lived he lived in Drury-lane Lord Stafford I will submit to any thing if I ever saw the man or heard of him till the Discovery of the Plot. Dr. Oats He came to him by the name of Thompson Lord High Stew. Your Lordship does not observe your Lordship says that you never knew any Fenwick but your Lordship knew one Thompson and that Thompson was Fenwick Lord Stafford I did know one Thompson but that Thompson I knew was an â—nglish Merchant in Brussels and not a Jesuit Dr. Oats I can't say what my Lord knows that he knew Fenwick to be a Jesuit but he knew one Thompson that was Fenwick the Jesuit Lord Stafford I never heard of the Name till this Plot. Dr. Oats But if your Lordships please I will give you a reason why I believe he knew him to be a Jesuit because the Society was very often in their mouths in their Discourses which gives me a ground to believe he knew him to be what he was but my Lord he took his Commission from him Lord Stafford I desire he may be asked L. H. Steward Good my Lord raise your voice for I am come half way to hear you Lord Stafford Pray my Lords give me leave to ask him whether Dr. Oats hath not said several times since I was first imprisoned that he never saw me in his life I think I was imprisoned the 21. of October 78. Dr. Oats I never said any such thing
I do now L. Stafford I desire my Witnesses may be called to prove it for I conceive it is very material My Lords does he deny it Mr. Dugd. I do say there was a Consult at Tixal in August but I did not charge your Lordship positively to be there then nor with more than I do now L. Staff I think you did and I have witnesses to prove it And 't is impossible for any man living to defend himself if persons shall swear as they suppose think or remember I tell your Lordships I was not there in all the month of August L. H. Stew. Does your Lordship intend to call any Witnesses L. Stafford My Lords I thought I had more Witnesses than I have But I have two here if your Lordships will hear them that he did swear I was at Tixal in August L. H. Stew. Who are they L. Stafford My Daughter Winchester for one and a Lady that is my Kinswoman for another L. H. Stew. Let them stand up they are not to be sworn You don't except against them Gentlemen Sir Will. Jones No let him prove what he can Lady Marchioness of Winchester He did swear that he was to receive his Orders from L. H. Stew. Madam your Ladyship is not upon your Oath but you are under all the obligations of Truth and Honour in the world Lady March Winch. My Lords by the Grace of God I will not speak an untrue word Sir Will. Jones We desire to know this Ladies Name L. Stafford It is my Daughter Winchester Lady March Winch. This Stephen Dugdale did say at the Tryal of Sir George Wakeman That he was to receive Orders from my Lord in June or July when he was to come down and that my Lord was at a Consult at Tixal in August L. H. Stew. Did he say positively in August or in August and September Lady March Winch. No he did not name September Mr. Dugdale My Lords I might say my Lord was to come down then but not that ever I said he was there but as now L. H. Stew. But she says you did not name September L. Stafford Here is another Lady Sir Will. Jones Who is she my Lord L. Stafford Mrs. Howard Daughâ—er to Sir George â—lount and married to Mr. Howard a Kinsman of mine she is now a Widow Mrs. Howard My Lords at the Tryal of Sir George Wakeman Dugdale was asked to be positive in the Month my Lord Stafford came down And he said he came down in June or July but he said the Consult was in August wherein my Lord Stafford was L. H. Stew. That Lady likewise says the same That you would not be positive as to June or July but as to August you were positive that my Lord was there Mr. Dugd. No my Lords I only said in August there was a Consult and in June or July my Lord was to come down Mrs. Howard I do assure you we came to that Tryal on purpose to observe every word he said about my Lord Stafford and we have kept it in our memories ever since L. H. Stew. What do you say Mr. Dugdale to it Mr. Dugd. I suppose there was a great many more at that Tryal than these two worthy Ladies and I suppose some of them may remember I said no more than I do now I said then my Lord was to come down at that time and so I said several times but not positively that he was there till the end of August or the beginning of September L. Stafford My Lords I do positively averr here are two Witnesses that say he swore I was there at the Consult in August Now it concerns me to prove that I was not there in August since he said absolutely I was there in August and I assure you I can prove I was not there not all the whole Month. In the beginning of August I came from London from my own House on Tuesday or Wednesday the 6. of August I went to my Lord Bellasis's and that night I went to George Porters the next night I went onwards towards Bath when I was there I went over and staid with my Noble Lord the Marquess of Worcester there I staid two or three days and I went thence to another place hard by there and then I came back again to Bath and went back again afterwards to my Lords House and the first or second of September I went from my Lords House to London Then it this be acknowledged I need say no more if not I 'll prove it by sufficient Witnesses So then I was not there the whole Month of August and the beginning of September he says he spoke with me I was not there till the 12. of September Now I beseech your Lordships how that could possibly be the beginning of September I submit to you whether then he be a Witness fit to be heard that shall sweat positively what hath no colour of truth in it I also leave to you And if they object I was not where I say I was in August I will prove it And for the 20. and 21. of September I do own something of that and I shall prove to your Lordships what it was L. H. Stew. Call what Witnesses you please my Lord. L. Stafford My Daughter proves when I went out of Town Lady March Winch. My Lords it was on a Tuesday my Father went to my Lord Bellasis he dined there and then went on to George Porters L. Stafford That I was at Bath I shall call Witnesses L. H. Stew. My Lord you should prove when you first came to Tixal my Lord Aston's L. Staff Will that satisfie your Lordship L. H. Stew. Me 'T is not me you are to satisfie but my Lords and the Gentlemen of the House of Commons L. Staff Then I do own to your Lordships I came the first time the 12 th of September to Tixal L. H. Stew. That was the first day you were there L. Staff That Year my Lord it was Sir Will. Jones Prove it L. Staff Does he deny that my Lords L. H. Stew. Do you deny that my Lord came first to Tixal the 12. of September Or do you know he was there before Mr. Dugdale My Lords I have positively spoke to no day but only to the 21. or 20. of September L. Staff Where is my Lord Marquess of Worcester's Servant L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford it will be best for your Lordship to produce all the Witnesses you have and not to leave any thing undone that you can prove L. Staff But I beseech your Lordships I may ask one Question if I shall name any of the House of Peers as my Witnesses does that exempt them from being Judges L. H. Stew. No my Lord. If your Lordship have any Witnesses among any of my Lords here they may very well testifie for you and yet remain still in the capacity of your Judges for my Lord of Strafford had a great many Witnesses that were Peers Sir John Trevor We
the House and therefore I believe what he has said is true L. Stafford Stephen Dugdale I desire may come again I conceive I have made it plain to your Lordships That Stephen Dugdale did swear that in August there was a Consult at my Lord Aston's where I was and I conceive it is also clear that in August I was not there and then if it were the beginning of September that could not be neither for I came not down to Tixall till the 12. I beseech you to ask him when I offered him the Five Hundred Pounds to kill the King I think he says it was the 20. or 21. Lord High Steward What was the time my Lord offered you the Five hundred pound Mr. Dugdale It was about that time the 20. or 21. of September to my remembrance Lord Stafford He said positively before it was one of those two days I beseech your Lordship to ask him where it was L. H. Steward Where was that offer made Mr. Dugdale In my Lords lodging chamber at Tixall L. Stafford Then one Question more I desire you Lordship to ask him what day the Race was at Etching-Hill between Sir John Crew 's man and Lazinby Mr. Dugd. If it please your Lordship I do conceive it was about that time L. Stafford I pray he may answer positively for if you please I will tell you how it was It is very true the 20. of September this fellow was in my chamber and I shall trouble your Lordships with some little discourse about it and my reasons why First I beseech your Lordships to permit me to let you know that this fellow did serve my Lord Aston in the quality of a Bailiff And I never thought him to be an honest man he was a mean Servant and when the other Servants waited but till the second Course came in he staid till the Coach-man and the Groom went to Dinner and eat with them I profess before God it is true as that the Sun shines I have often and often I cannot tell how many times when I have been very dry at my Lords Table and seen him by me not called for Drink I did detest him as so mean a Knave that I often refused to take Drink at his hands And now for me to offer this fâ—llow five hundred pounds L. H. Steward I think your Lordship says he was Bailiff to my Lord Aston L. Stafford But I knew him to be an errant Knave and a great Gamester at Races and such things L. H. Steward My Lord would you have offered five hundred pounds to an honest man to kill the King Mr. Serj. Maynard You said you never saw him S. Stafford I said I had seen him but now I did not know him by his Peruke Lord High Stew. Did you not know him my Lord L. Stafford No my Lords I profess I did not L. H. Steward Why your Lordship was a going to shew that the Race at Etching-Hill was upon the 2â— of September and your Lordship confesses that he did speak with you on the 20. of September in your chamber and Dugdale says this day was the very offer made him of five hundred pounds to kill the King What do you say Dugdale were you at the Race Mr. Dugd. Yes I was with my Lord at the Race Lord High Stew. Did my Lord speak with you before he went or after Mr. Dugd. Before L. H. Steward That morning in his chamber Mr. Dugd. Yes it was that very morning before he went to the Race L. Stafford I do own my Lord thus far he was in my chamber that morning but my Lord I can prove what I say to you My Lords that 20. of September in the morning I was in my bed and there comes a Servant of mine that hath served twelve or fourteen years and he comes in to me and says Yonder is Stephen Dugdale very desirous to go to this Race it seems he says he went along with me to this Race Mr. Dugdale I say I went either before or after or when you went to the Race for I was with you at the Race L. H. Steward Whether he went with you or no is not the point but whether he was in your chamber at that time Lord Stafford 'T is the point for he said just now he went with me as I apprehended him But I tell your Lordships my Servant came and told me Stephen Dugdale desires that you will ask my Lord Aston leave that he may go before to the Race my Lord is angry with him already for his medling in Races and he dare not ask himself My Lords I was a little concerned in the Race for I had betted some money and I thought with my self should I ask my Lord Aston leave for him to go my Lord will not deny me but perhaps will take it ill to be asked so I was not over willing to do it But I bid my Servant call him in and when he came I asked him some foolish Questions about the Race as who he thought would win and the like but I told him I would get leave of my Lord for him My Lords I did go to my Lord Aston and told him My Lord I am sending my Servant before to the place of the Race but I am afraid he does not well know the way shall Stephen Dugdale go along with him My Lord gave him leave to go but my Lords I dressed me and did not speak one tittle more to this Dugdale but he went away before and I was hardly or but just drest when he was gone L. H. Steward I pray my Lord was your Lordship at no time alone with him in your chamber L. Stafford No never since I was born never in all my life Lord High Steward No my Lord L. Stafford He says my Servants use to come for him I profess it is all false Lord High Steward What say you to that Mr. Dugdale Mr. Dugd. My Lords I was in my chamber and busie when my Lord sent for me that morning and it was either by his Page or one that waits on him in his chamber I went to my Lord and the Page was in the chamber and he ordered him to go out L. Stafford I declare and averr to your Lordships he was in the Hall or the next room and desired to come in Lord High Steward Where is the Page L. Stafford This fellow was but a poor Boy found at the Door then he was a Thresher and now a Witness for the King Then my Lord Stafford's man stood up L. H. Steward What is your Name Witness My Name is Furnese Lord High Stew. Do you remember the day of the Race at Etching-Hill Furnese Yes I do my Lords L. H. Stew. Do you remember Dugdale was in your Lords chamber that morning Furnese Yes I do L. H. Stew. Do you remember whether your Lord did bid you go out or no Furnese No he did not L. H. Steward Were you there all the while
me to the White Horse in Ridgley and there when I came to him he told me I knew as much of the Plot as he I told him I was innocent of the thing he swore God damn him that I knew as much as he Then I told him if he knew no more than I did he knew no more than my Lord Mayor's great Horse did Then he took me aside Come says he you are a poor man and live poorly I can put you in a way whereby you may live gallantly I will give you 50 l. in hand if so be you will do so and so and 50 l. more when the thing is done L. H. Stew. What do you mean by so and so Morrall To swear against Mr. Howard Sir James Symons and several other Gentlemen of the Country L. H. Stew. Did he offer you any mony to swear against my Lord Stafford Morrall No I did not hear him mention any thing of him L. H. Stew. But he offered you mony to swear against Symons and Howard Morrall Yes my Lord and Herbert Aston my Lord Aston's Kinsman L. H. Stew. What were you to swear Morrall That they were at such a Meeting at Mr. Herbert Aston's upon the Conspiracy of the Plot. L. H. Stew. Will you ask him any thing Managers No set him by Then another Witness stood up L. H. Steward What is your Name Witness Samuel Holt. L. H. Stew. What Profession are you L. Stafford Pray my Lords ask him whether Dugdale would perswade him to swear that which he knew not L. H. Steward What Profession are you of Holt. A Protestant of the Church of England L. H. Stew. What Trade Holt. A Blacksmith L. H. Stew. Where do you live Holt. At Tixal L. H. Stew. Are you my Lord Aston's Servant Holt. No my Lords L. H. Stew. What say you Holt. My Lords he sent a man and a Horse for me to Stafford to the Star L. H. Stew. Who did Holt. Mr. Dugdale did And there I waited upon him a good while At length he came and told me he must speak with me privately so he told me if I would swear that VValter Moor carried Evers away he would give me 40 l. And he bid me not be afraid to swear for fear of my Lord Aston for he would hire me an Horse and get me to London and place me that where I got one shilling I should g et five L. H. Stew. Did you know Evers Holt. Yes my Lords I have seen him L. H. Stew. Do you know when he went away from Tixal Holt. No my Lords L. H. Stew. What else can you say Holt. Nothing else L. H. Stew. Will you ask him any Questions Gentlemen Managers No. L. Stafford T' e next thing I go upon is that Stephen Dugdale at the Tryal of the five Jesuits swore That he acquainted Sambidge with the Letter about the death of Sir Edmundbury Godsrey the Munday or Tuesday after which Mr. Sambidge denies And in order to that I call Mr. Sambidge but if your Lordships please I shall first prove that hâ— swore it then Where is Mr. Lydcott who stood up I desire to ask him whether Dugdale did swear at the Tryal of the five Jesuits that he acquainted Mr. Sambidge with the Letter about the death of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey L. H. Stew. You fellow Witness My Lord. L. H. Stew. What is your Name VVitness John Lydcott L. H. Stew. How do you live Lydcott I am a Fellow of Kings Colledge in Cambridge L. H. Stew. What do you come to say Lydcott I don't know my Lords what my Lord will ask me Sir VVill. Jones My Lords before you enter into the examination of this man we desire to ask him a Question or two Mr Serj. Mayn Whose Servant are you or were you lately Lydcott I am Fellow of Kings Colledge Mr. Serj. Maynard But whom did you serve lately were you never Secretary to a Lord Lydcott Yes I was Mr. Serj. Mayn To what Lord Lydcott To my Lord Castlemain Sir L. H. Stew. What Religion are you of Lydcott Of the Church of England and always was nay I can't say always for I was bred up a Presbyterian my Father was a Colonel under Monk L. Stafford Mr. Lydcott I ask whether you did not hear Mr. Dugdale swear at the Tryal of the five Jesuits Mr. Serj. Mayn I desire one favour my Lords my Lord Stafford asks Questions to lead the Witness pray let him ask his Questions more generally L. H. Stew. You say you are a Protestant Lydcott Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. When did you last receive the Sacrament Lydcott When I was last at Cambridge No not so for it is not above a year ago that I was there L. H. Stew. When then did you receive the Sacrament Lydcott I do not exactly remember my Lords L. H. Stew. My Lord I would be glad to know what is the Question your Lordship calls him for that your Lordship may not ask the Question but by me L. Stafford My Lords I desire to know for my part I know not what his Answer will be whether he did hear at the Tryal of the five Jesuits Dugdale swear he had communicated the news of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey's death which was on the Saturday on the Tuesday after to any people and to whom L. H. Stew. Were you at the Tryal of the five Jesuits Lydcott Yes I was L. H. Stew. Did you hear Dugdale swear there and give his Testimony Lydcott Yes I did L. H. Stew. Do you remember what Dugdale swore then Lydcott Very well L. H. Steward What was it Lydcott My Lords Mr. Dugdale spoke of a Letter that came down to my Lord Aston's on the Munday and he imparted it on the Tuesday after at an Ale-house to one Mr. Sambidge and Mr. Philips This was also at Sir George Wakeman's Tryal which I took notice of more particularly because I had occasion to take some Notes there L. H. Stew. What use do you make of this my Lord L. Stafford If that be allowed to be so then I will call no more Witnesses otherwise I have more L. H. Stew. Call them all Lord Stafford Then call Mr. Charles Gifford Mr. Serj. Mayn Pray my Lords give me leave to ask this young Scholar one Question before he goes By whose commendation or means did you come into that Colledge Lydcott By Election from Eaton Mr. Serj. Mayn Who promoted you Lydcott One Mr. Doyley now Senior Fellow of Kings Colledge it was his Election Sir Fran. Winn. My Lords I would ask him one Question He says he went to take Notes by whose direction did he go to take Notes at Sir George Wakeman's Tryal Lydcott It was for my own curiosity L. H. Stew. Friend 't is all one as if you were upon your Oath and as penal to you by whose direction did you go Lydcott It was partly my own curiosity and partly to see what Evidence was against my Lord for my Lord Castlemain thought himself concerned as
matter mostly arising within my Lord Aston's Family and what Witnesses we shall have from thence your Lordships may easily imagine will not be very favourable to us and if we have not many to this point your Lordships will take into consideration that those who can give the fullest proof here must be those of the Family and the Religion of the Family But my Lords we will call one or two that I believe will give you satisfaction that my Lord the Prisoner was no such stranger to Mr. Dugdale that they have been seen together and alone together and that is the first thing we desire to call Witnesses to Call Mr. Ansell and William Hanson Mr. Hanson was sworn L. H. Steward Where do you live Whose Servant are you Mr. Hanson At Wilnal in Stafford shire L. H. Steward What do you ask him Sir Will. Jones I desire if you be satisfied where he lives that he will tell you whether he hath been at my Lord Aston's and seen my Lord Stafford there L. H. Steward Have you seen my Lord Stafford at my Lord Aston's Mr. Hanson Yes my Lords L. H. Steward When Mr. Hanson A little above two years ago L. Stafford Be pleased he may name the time positively Sir Will. Jones My Lord Stafford is not so well versed in prosecutions of this nature as to know that he is not to interrupt us while we are examining our Witnesses L. H. Steward My Lord your Lordship received no interruption nor must give none Sir Will. Jones My Lords we desire this Witness may be asked whether or no he hath seen Mr. Dugdale and my Lord Stafford at any time together L. H. Steward What say you Mr. Hanson Yes my Lords L. H. Steward When and where Mr. Hanson I cannot justly tell the time L. H. Stew. Can you tell the place Mr. Hanson Yes at my Lord Aston's L. H. Stew. Whereabouts Mr. Hanson In my Lord Aston's Parlour L. H. Stew. And were they alone Mr. Hanson Mr. Dugdale fetched me to my Lord Stafford L. H. Stew. And was no body in the Parlour when Dugdale fetched you to my Lord Mr. Hanson No my Lords I think there was not L. Stafford He thinks there was not Mr. Hanson There was not to my best remembrance Sir W. Jones My Lords will you be pleased to ask him the Occasion why Dugdale fetched him to him Mr. Hanson My Lord had a mind to have a Boy L. H. Stew. What was the occasion that Dugdale did come to fetch you to my Lord Stafford in the Parlour Mr. Hanson To bring the Boy my Lords Yong Hawkins Mr. Dugdale fetched me and the Boy to him it was a Boy that my Lord would have to live with him Sir Will. Jones Can you tell what time of the year it was whether Winter or Summer as near as you can L. H. Stew. Aye What time of the year was it Mr. Hanson Indeed my Lords I cannot tell Sir Will. Jones I desire to ask him whether when he went away he left them together L. H. Stew. Did you leave them together Mr. Hanson To my best remembrance my Lords I did The Boy and I went away together and we left them at my Lord Aston's Parlour-door Sir Will. Jones Call James Ansel L. H. Stew. Nay if you have done with him my Lord Stafford may ask him any Questions L. Stafford My Lords I shall tell you how this thing is There was a report that this Hawkins was a very good running Foot-boy and this was spoken of at my Lord Aston s at Dinner or Supper I don't know which nay severall times about that time it was when my Lord of Danby was Treasurer and his Son my Lord Dunblain was much for Foot-matches and I had a minde to have a Foot-boy to make a match with him and I believe Dugdale at Dinner or Supper did say that he was a good running Lad and I might desire to see him and Dugdale did bring him to me I believe into my Lord Aston's Parlour but there was at least six or seven in the Room besides L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford Was this at that time when your Lordship was at Tixal the 12 of September L. Stafford Pray my Lords I desire to ask him that Question I would know what year it was L. H. Stew. He says it was above two years ago L. Stafford I profess I believe it was one or two years before I was taxed with this Plot. I did never think I should be questioned about this or I could easily have brought witnesses that were by at that time It is true he did come to me but pray what time of day was it Mr. Hanson In the morning I think it was L. Stafford I profess to God it was after Supper as I hope to be saved it was as we were going to bed to the best of my remembrance Sir Will. Jones Did you come into the Parlour after Supper Mr. Hanson I am not sure what time it was Sir Will. Jones If his Lordship please to ask him any more Questions if not we will call another James Ansell who was sworn L. H. Steward What is your Name Witness James Ansell L. H. Stew. Where do you live Mr. Ansell At Heywood in Staffordshire L. H. Stew. Did you live with my Lord Aston Mr. Ansell I have been at my Lords House at Tixal L. H. Stew. But you are not of the Family Mr. Ansell No. L. H. Stew. How far is Heywood from Tixal Mr. Ansell A Mile L. H. Stew. Have you seen my Lord Stafford at Tixal Mr. Ansell I have seen a man they called my Lord Stafford I did not know him but as they told me L. H. Stew. Did you ever see Dugdale in the company of a man they called my Lord Stafford Mr. Ansell Two years ago I was at Tixal and there I saw one that they said was my Lord Stafford walking with Mr. Dugdale whom I did know L. H. Stew. Where was it Mr. Ansell In the Court at Tiaxl walking together L. H. Stew. Were they alone Was there no body else in company Mr. Ansell None that I saw there might be more company but I saw no more Sir Will. Jones Pray my Lords ask how long ago this was Mr. Ansell About Summer was two years Sir Will. Jones If his Lordship will ask him any Questions now we have done he may otherwise we will call another L. Stafford My Lords I have recollected my self as well as I can in so short a time and all I can say is some of my Servants were by I suppose and I do assure your Lordships the other business was above three years ago so the fellow does not know what he does say L. H. Stew. Will you ask him any Questions L. Stafford Pray ask him how long he saw me in the Court with Dugdale L. H. Stew. How long was it Mr. Ansell I cannot tell I did but walk through the Court I came to speak with Mr. Dugdale and he was
Thorne Yes he hath been sued for money and I have been contributory to keep him out of Prison Sir W. Jones I ask you in general is he of a good or bad Reputation Thorne Indifferent Sir Will. Jones 'T is modestly said My Lords your Lordships have heard what kind of Witnesses have been brought against us For two of them you have had particular matters for a third our Witness speaks modestly that he is a man of indifferent Reputation But now my Lords we must prove what endeavours have been used to get other Witnesses against our Witnesses and for that I desire to call one Simon VVright to tell your Lordships what hath been offered him to swear against Dugdale and by whom VVright stood up and was sworn Mr. Foley My Lords we desire this Witness would give your Lordships some account what endeavours have been used by offers of money or otherwise to make him swear against Dugdale and by whom L. H. Stew. Hath any body endeavoured to perswade you to swear against Dugdale VVright Yes my Lords L. H. Steward Tell your whole story who it was and what was offered you VVright The first time I was employed was presently after the Murder of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey and it was by one Mr. Plessington that was in custody about that matter And he sent me on Sunday morning to the Marquess of VVinchesters to desire him to consider what a charge he lay at And my Lord did send him word he could not expect to be discharged so soon The Tuesday after he was discharged And afterwards coming unto me I told him I was glad he had so good friends to get out so soon He told me were I in the same condition I should have as good or better Whereupon Mr. Plessington and I were as good friends as any about the Town I was his Barber and Barber to Mr. Dugdale and we were all great cronies And Plessington told me if I could find a way to take off his Evidence or destroy him I should have seven hundred pounds I went to inquire out where I might have a security for the Money And Mr. Reeves an Apothecary in Chancery-lane did profer me his Note and so did Mr. Dewy the Scrivener But I did not nor had the Money And several times particularly at the Tryal of Mrs. Price and Mr. Tasborough they would have had me sworn quite blank That he would have hired me to have sworn against them And afterwards they would have had me own I was forsworn and they would get me a Pardon L. H. Stew. What had you sworn VVright What I heard Mrs. Price say at the Horse-shoe in Chancery-lane as to the blasting of Dugdale as may be seen in the Tryal L. H. Stew. Who offered you that Seven hundred pounds VVright My Lord Bellasis's Steward L. H. Stew. What is his Name Wright Plessington Sir Fr. Winn. My Lords I think he says he was to swear against Mr. Dugdale I desire he would explain himself more particularly and tell who it was that offered him any money to swear against Dugdale VVright Mr. Plessington my Lords And since the Tryall of Mrs. Price they did persuade me to write a Paper for the blasting the reputation of Dugdale and to shake his credit by it And that they carried to Mr. Drayton and Sir James Symons and they being satisfied would have me write again to those Gentlemen and they framed a Letter for me to write And thereupon Mr. Longmore I know the Gentleman if I see him again told me that Sir James Symons was better able to perform than Dugdale was to promise and if I would stand by it I should be an happy man L. H. Steward What had you said in that Paper VVright I had said according as they directed me that Mr. Dugdale would have given me money to swear against Sir James Symons and Mr. Gerard. L. H. Steward Did you swear that VVright No I did not but I was to have done it L. H. Steward How came it to pass you did not agree with them VVright My Lords I have had Four pounds in hand and that I had by reason poverty came upon me And my Lord Bellasis's Steward came and lay with me and spent Twenty shillings upon me but finding that I was not absolutely true to them nor like to go through they distrusted me and I borrowed an Horse of Captain Chetwin and got down into the Country where I have been since July last till I was fetch'd up by a Messenger to come and give Evidence for the King And there I received a Letter from my Lord Aston's Agent That if I would call at Stafford and come up with my Lords Witnesses they would bear my charges up to London I have the Letter in my Pocket L. Stafford If it please you he may shew the Letter which he did Clerke This for Simon Wright a Barber at _____ deliver with care Subscribed Your Loving Friend _____ Abnett Symon Wright I Have just now received a Letter from the Lord Stafford wherein my Lord mentioned Wright to be one of his VVitnesses and desired me forthwith to give Wright notice That if possible he should be at London on Saturday night next his Tryal being to be on the Tuesday after therefore if he pleased to come to him he should give him Money to bear his charges up and he should come up with my Lords VVitnesses Abnett This is the substance of the Letter as it was taken Sir W. Jones I presume your Lordships will be pleased to take notice he was intended a Witness for my Lord and it was supposed then that he was able to say something but he was not produced by my Lord yesterday L. Stafford Pray my Lords give me leave as to this Witness I desire if you please I may have time to prove something against this man till to morrow I have enough against him Mr. Serj. Maynard You will find another Witness I suppose by that time L. Stafford No I will not find him I have him already I have enough against this Fellow L. H. Stew. You shall have time to say what you will my Lord. Mr. Serj. Maynard I would my Lord would name his Witness L. Stafford I will name him to you since you ask it 't is Dodd he knows what I mean well enough VVright I don't know him my Lord I 'le assure you Sir VV. Jones My Lords We will go on now to another matter My Lord Stafford was pleased to object That Mr. Dugdale did talk much of Letters and proceedings but was able to shew none of them My Lords we will give an account how that comes about Mr. Dugdale as in part hath been proved already was apprehensive of being accused for the Plot nay I think we shall prove he was afraid he had been in the Proclamation against those Traytors and Jesuits that were fled We shall prove that Mr. Dugdale to secure himself and his then friends for he was not then
come over to make any discovery did burn a great many Letters and Papers that did relate to those proceedings and did not leave any thing remaining hoping thereby to prevent a discovery We will call Witnesses that were by when it was done and I think that will be some answer to this objection Call Elizabeth Eld and Anne Eld. Elizabeth Eld sworn Sir Fr. VVinn My Lords if your Lordships please we would ask her this general Question What she knows of Mr. Dugdale's burning a great many Letters and Papers at what place and about what time Elizabeth Eld. I cannot possibly say to the time I burnt some Writings for him when he went away he desired me to burn them he did not tell me what Writings they were He said the times were troublesome and if he should be sick upon the Road where he was going he would not have all his Papers seen but he desired me to burn them And I took and burnt them all but one Book and my Sister asked if that Book should be burnt he said no there was nothing of Treason in it I asked him if there were any thing of Treason in the others and he said Do you think there was Sir VV. Jones How long was this before he went away Elizabeth Eld. That morning when he went away Sir W. Jones How many Papers were there Elizabeth Eld. I cannot say how many Sir Will. Jones I do not ask you the number but the quantity was there a bushel Elizabeth Eld. I cannot say they were roll'd up and put in his Pockets and his Breeches L. H. Steward Were they Parchments or Papers Elizabeth Eld. They were Papers L. H. Steward Were they Letters Elizabeth Eld. I did not see what they were but they were wrapt up together they might be the Accompts of the House for what I know Sir Fr. Winn. But she says as I take it that Mr. Dugdale said there was Treason in them Elizabeth Eld. No he said Did I think there was He said it was no matter for burning that little Book there was no Treason in that and when I asked him if there was any in the others he said Do you think there was L. H. Steward Was it one or two bundles Elizabeth Eld. There were several bundles they were not tyed up but taken in handfuls and thrown into the fire Mr. Foley If my Lord Stafford will ask her no Question we will call up another Elizabeth Eld. My Lords I did see Mr. Dugdale take a glass of Cyder and I heard him say and wish it might be his Damnation and he might sink in the place where he stood if he knew any thing of the Plot. Sir W. Jones I pray what Religion are you of I don't ask you to disparage you Elizabeth Eld. A Roman Catholick L. H. Steward When was it that he said that Elizabeth Eld. When he was in Staffordshire Anne Eld was then sworn Mr. Foley Tell my Lords what you know of any Papers that were burnt by Mr. Dugdale or by his direction and at what time Anne Eld. Mr. Dugdale came to my Fathers house over night and the next morning before he went away he brought a great many Papers he had in his Breeches and in his Pockets bundled together and he desired us to burn them in the flame of a Candle L. H. Stew. Why did he desire you to burn them Anne Eld. He said the times were troublesome and being to travel he was to go to diverse places and if he were taken people would think him a Plotter having all those Papers about him L. H. Stew. Did he burn the Book at that time Anne Eld. No. L. H. Stew. Why not Anne Eld. I found that Book and asked him if that should be burnt he said no' lay that by it may do good seven years hence there is no Treason in it says my Sister to him Is there any Treason in the rest says he Do you think there is that was all Sir Will. Jones Not to trouble you longer my Lords upon this your Lordships will be pleased to remember yesterday my Lord Stafford was pleased to offer by way of Evidence as if Mr. Dugdale was a man of an ill Reputation in these particulars That he had defrauded my Lord Aston that he was a mean man run in arrear to my Lord and that being in necessity he became a fit instrument to give false Evidence We shall shew That Mr. Dugdale was a man of Estate that both before and since he came away from my Lord Aston he hath made it his business to desire my Lord to come to Accompt that he hath pressed him and that he does believe and hath reason so to believe that there is Money coming from my Lord Aston to him and that a considerable sum Now my Lords if we shall make it appear that he hath made it his business to come to Accompt with my Lord I hope it will not be supposed that he is afraid of it or so needy or so mean For this we call Michael Noble and Stephen Colledge Michael Noble sworn Sir John Trevor What do you know of Mr. Dugdale and my Lord Aston Mr. Noble My Lords I can say little or nothing as to Mr. Dugdale for that I have never been acquainted with him but since the Plot and he came to be an Evidence but Mr. Dugdale desired me to assist him as much as I could to make up his Accompts with my Lord Aston And we were twice at the Tower one time we spoke with my Lord with great difficulty another time we could not see him There were three Books of Accompt two my Lord would let us see but the third wherein all the Discharges were as Mr. Dugdale said he would never let us see that is all I can say Then Stephen Colledge was sworn L. H. Stew. What is your Name Witness Stephen Colledge Sir Will. Jones Declare to my Lords what you know concerning Mr. Dugdale's pressing my Lord Aston to accompt with him Mr. Colledge In January last I went along with Mr. Dugdale at his request to the Tower with one Mr. Noble a Barrester of the Temple and one Mr. Boson of Lyons-Inn in order to the making up Accompts between Mr. Dugdale and my Lord Aston for he told me he was going thither for that end When we came thither we met with one Captain Hawley who belongs to the Lieutenant of the Tower and we desired him to go to my Lord Aston and tell him Mr. Dugdale was there in order to make up his Accompts with him He went and brings an answer back again That my Lord was not at leisure to speak with Mr. Dugdale then nor none of us from him And Mr. Hawley said he was then going up with the Lords to Nine-pins Mr. Dugdale faid he was very ill used for he had been several times there before and he could not be admitted to speak with him He hath a little Book says he meaning my Lord wherein
there is an Accompt made up under his own hand of almost Two or Three hundred Pounds which sum I cannot say but one of them I am certain of which he hath denyed several times that he had it but I can prove that he hath it if he will be pleased to produce that Book we need not be a quarter of an hour in making up the Accompt He did speak of some other sums he had to place to Accompt too but so much was made up already But Captain Hawley saying he would not speak with him nor any of us from him I did take the liberty to say to Captain Hawley That it was hard his Lordship and his party should abuse Mr. Dugdale at that rate to make him his Debtor for now I understood by what Mr. Dugdale said my Lord was his Debtor And said I if I can perswade Mr. Dugdale he shall publish his Case for the Protestant Interest suffered by it That he should be made a Debtor to my Lord when he was not so And I believe Capt. Hawley told my Lord Aston what I did say for when he came back again from my Lord Aston he said my Lord did acknowledge he had that Book and it was ready to be produced but he would stay till a Councellor of his came out of the Country and till he had spoke with the Lieutenant for he would not speak with Mr. Dugdale unless the Lieutenant were by and in three or four days time he would send for him but I never heard that he sent for him ever since If it please your Lordships I have one thing more that I remember There was a young man that belonged to my Lord Aston's Family that heard Mr. Dugdale was at Captain Hawley's Chamber and came to see him and paid a very great respect to him and would stand bare to him though Mr. Dugdale desired him to put on his Hat several times Some of us asked him whether Mr. Dugdale was thought to be such a Knave when he lived with his Lord as they would have made him since No said he Mr. Dugdale was as honest a Gentleman as ever lived in our Family I remember my Lord Aston's man said this to us then L. Stafford My Lords Will you be pleased to give me leave if I speak impertinently I am under your correction I conceive I shall have something to answer this but I would first know whether I may desire of your Lordships that I may have my Lord Aston here to give an account of this matter Sir Will. Jones If he were here he could not be heard being a person accused for the same offence L. H. Stew. My Lord he stands Indicted for the same Treason and cannot be a Witness L. Stafford I beg your pardon my Lord. Nicholas Boson was sworn L. H. Stew. What is your Name Witness Nicholas Boson Sir VV. Jones Declare to my Lords what you know concerning Mr. Dugdale's pressing my Lord Aston to come to an accompt Mr. Boson In January last I met with Mr. Dugdale and one Mr. Noble and one Mr. Colledge And Mr. Dugdale desired us to go down with him to the Tower He said he had an Order of the Council to pass his Accompts with my Lord Aston and when we came there we enquired for Captain Hawley and desired him that he would acquaint my Lord Aston that he was there to accompt with him Captain Hawley went up to my Lord Aston and brought word back again my Lord was not at leisure or would not speak with him or to that effect whereupon Mr. Dugdale said it was very hard that he should be aspersed to owe my Lord Mony and he would not come to accompt with him For my Lord Aston had a Book or Books in his custody which he would stand by and they would determine the business between them that my Lord Aston was almost Two hundred pounds in his debt And pray says he Captain Hawley do me the favour to go to my Lord Aston again and desire him that he will be pleased to produce that Book or Books If I owe my Lord any money I am ready to pay him and if he owe me any I hope his Lordship will do the like by me as I am sure he does Two hundred Pounds Captain Hawley went away and brought this Answer That his Lordship would send for him in some short time assoon as a Coâ—nellor did come out of the Country whom he had entrusted with his Books and that was one Birch as near as I remember Sir Will. Jones We have done with this Witness And because we desire to conclude as to Mr. Dugdale we shall call some persons of Quality as to his Reputation my Lord having gone about to make him a man of no Reputation Mr. Boson I can speak too about the Boy that came in Sir VV. Jones There is no need of that now we shall trouble you no further Sir Your Lordships will be pleased to observe That Mr. Philips the Minister that was one of my Lord Stafford's Witnesses did say Mr. Dugdale was a man of whome many spoke well and some indifferently and perhaps that is the case of most good men for scarce any are so good that all speak well of them but that many should speak well and some indifferently of him may be the lot of a very good man We shall call some Witnesses and begin with Mr. VVhitby a Justice of the Peace that will tell you he hath known Mr. Dugdale long and what Reputation he is of Thomas Whitby Esq sworn Sir John Trevor My Lords We desire your Lordships would be pleased to ask him what Reputation and credit Mr. Dugdale was in in my Lord Aston's Service Mr. VVhitby My Lords I have known Mr. Dugdale to be a Servant to my Lord Aston this nine or ten years he was Steward to him and there was no other person between my Lord and him he received my Lords Rents and Debts for him exchanged his Lands for him in forty places I exchanged some Land with my Lord my self and he was the man that did it He was very hard for my Lords advantage and did what he could for my Lords profit Sir John Trevor What do you know more as to his dealing Mr. VVhitby He was a person that was next to my Lord and did rule and govern the rest of the Family All the Servants were under him Sir John Trevor Was he looked upon to be an honest man in his dealings Mr. VVhitby As to what I had to deal with him he was an honest man I never heard the contrary I have heard some Tradesmen complain that he hath put them off without Money would not pay them what my Lord owed them L. Stafford I desire that Mr. VVhitby may be here when I shall have occasion to say something to him Sir VV. Jones That will be I hope by and by for we have almost done Call Mr. VVilliam Southall VVho was sworn L.
I do not think we shall need to trouble your Lordships more with this matter that my Lord was lame sometime he is pleased to confess One Witness says that he put his Foot on a Cushion my Lord does not acknowledge that L. Stafford I was never lame at Paris Sir VVill. Jones That a man that is lame does sometimes ease his Foot is no hard Consequence I think L. Stafford I deny I was lame then I walked about the streets of Paris I desire I may not be misunderstood Sir VVill. Jones I must then desire under his Lordships favour if he will not acknowledge it to be within seven years that we may prove it and falsifie his Witness the Page L. Stafford I have gone with a stick to the House I acknowledge it and been lame with weariness Sir Fr. VVinn The Objection went to the Credit of our Witness and therefore we desire to answer it my Lord was not lame as he says for so many years but if we prove that within less time my Lord hath been lame it will take off that Objection from our Witness And we desire a Noble Lord or two of this House may testifie what they know And first the Earl of Stamford who was sworn Earl of Stamford My Lords I think I have not had the honour to sit in this House much above seven years but long since that time I have seen my Lord Stafford come lame into the House of Peers and that is all I can say L. Stafford I have come lame with a stick to the House I say Sir Fr. Winn. My Lords we desire that Noble Lord my Lord Lovelace may be sworn which was done Lord Lovelace My Lords the Account that I can give your Lordships is this I cannot ascertain any time but I am sure and I do declare it upon my Honour and the Oath I have taken that I have seen my Lord Stafford lame in the House of Lords within less than this seven years L. Stafford If he goes home to the Tower he may see me lame but never put my Foot upon a stool Sir Will. Jones My Lords your Lordships will be pleased to remember we did call a Witness one Thomas Launder and the account we had of him was he was gone sick from the Bar he was very sick indeed but being just now brought we desire he may be heard though it be out of time we call him to the Reputation of Holt. Thomas Launder was sworn Sir John Trevor Do you declare to my Lords whether you know Samuel Holt Launder Yes my Lords I do L. H. Steward What do you know of him Launder He is a Smith my Lords L. H. Steward What Reputation is he of Launder Indifferent my Lords Sir William Jones What do you mean by that good or bad speak plainly Launder A Drunken Sot a man that will Drink and Rant and Tear the Ground and sing two or three days or a week together and lose his time Sir Fr. Winn. I would ask this man whether he was summoned as a Witness upon any Tryal in relation to the Plot L. H. Stew. Were you ever summon'd as a Witness about the Plot Launder My Lords I was summon'd concerning my Lord Aston's Tryal and I came up with my Lord Aston's people as an Evidence Sir W. Jones Had you any offer of money and what sum Launder Yes my Lords Sir Fr. Winn. Acquaint my Lords with it L. H. Stew. Who offered it you and when and for what Sir Will. Jones For what was that money offered you Launder The money was not absolutely offered me but I was to have an Horse to ride on and money in my Pocket if I could take off James Ansel Dugdale's Evidence L. H. Stew. Who came and offered it to you Launder I was sent for by Mr. Fox to Tixal Hall and there was my old Lords Brother for one and Mr. Thomas Aston that is this young Lords Brother and Mr. Francis Aston who is my Lords eldest Son were in a Room together and this Thomas Sawyer that was here and more were in the Room when they promised all these things L. H. Steward If you would do what Launder If I would take my Oath that this James Ansell was a Perjured Rogue L. H. Stew. Did all they make you this promise Launder Yes my Lords Mr. Fotey It was a Consult together about taking off the Evidence Sir Will Jones My Lords we have done with our Witnesses if my Lord Stafford please to conclude we are ready to do so too L. Stafford What should I conclude about those Witnesses you have now brought in Sir W. Jones Your Lordship may please to conclude your Evidence we are ready to conclude on our part L. Stafford These new Witnesses must I say what I can say against them presently I cannot do it I know very few of them L. H. Steward Have you any Witnesses here my Lord L. Stafford I cannot possibly have any For I did not know nor guess these people would be brought against me They are persons I know nothing of Ansell I have seen four or five times I may have seen the rest but I do not know them to be able to give an accompt of them L. H. Stew. If you have any Witnesses here to support the credit of your own Witnesses that have been impeached you may call them L. Stafford I have none my Lords L. H. Stew. Will your Lordship recapitulate the material parts of your Defence that the Process may be closed L. Stafford I am very unready for it my Lords Let me ask Mr. VVhitby a Question if I must have no more time Mr. Whitby stood up L. H. Stew. There he is what would your Lordship have with him L. Stafford I do not know the Gentleman Mr. VVhitby Nor I your Lordship Lord Stafford I ask him upon the Oath he hath taken I know he will speak truth whether he did not some years ago tell my Lord Aston that is dead this Lord's Father That Dugdale was a Knave and persuaded him to turn him away I say not it is true but I have heard so and desired him to tell his Son so that he might quit himself of him L. H. Steward What say you Mr. VVhitby Mr. VVhitby My Lords about three or four years ago my Lord Aston that is dead I believe it may be two years last April sent for me to dine with him and when I came thither he told me says he Mr. VVhitby I have sent to you to acquaint you with a thing but I do not believe it before I tell it you What is it said I said he Stephen Dugdale hath acquainted me that you have employed persons upon the Water to destroy my Water said I my Lord I never endeavoured it he said he did believe me then I told my Lord said I Mr. Dugdale is a dishonour to the Family upon this accompt because many times people come for money and he will not let them have it
but puts them off and makes them complain says my Lord my Son is now at Standall but I will tell him as soon as he comes home and if you will bring the persons that have waited so long for their money and made so many journeys you shall hear what he will say to it Within a while my Lord Aston that now is came down and I went thither to see what became of it And I went to the Bâ—wling Green where my Lord and his Son were but my old Lord said nothing to me of it nor his Son neither Within a few days my old Lord Aston's Gentleman came down to my House one Mr. Ashley said I I wonder whether my Lord Aston hath acquainted his Son with what I told him says he he hath but it signifies nothing for he will hear nothing against Mr. Dugdale This I speak upon my Oath 't is true L. H. Steward Your Lordship sees what this Gentlemans Opinion was of Dugdale then he would hear nothing against him Will your Lordship conclude L. Stafford My Lords I am mighty unready and know not which way to turn my self upon those new things they have brought for I knew nothing of it nor expected any such thing But will you be pleased that I may call Simon Wright again VVho stood up L. H. Stew. What would your Lordship have with him L. Stafford I have nothing to say to him but to desire him to seé this Letter whether it be of his own Writing or no. L. H. Stew. Look upon that Paper shew it him which was done L. H. Stew Is it your hand Wright This is my hand 'T is part of that I was hired to do There is another of a great deal more consequence than that L. H. Stew. Deliver it in and read it Clerk June the 14. 1680. Sir I Can I bless God with a safe Conscience declare upon Oath that Mr. Dugdale hath been unkind to me in taking his opportunity of my Poverty by reason of a private meeting of us two by his appointment he did that time proffer if I would swear against You and Mr. Gerard he would protect me as one of the King's Evidence and I should not want Money and in the Hall at Westminster he said if I did discover it that day at Mrs. Price's Tryal he would set me in the Pillory This I have owned to his face and shall not go back from this and more neither for fear nor favour So I rest as you shall find by your Servant Sim. Wright L. H. Steward Is this your hand VVright Yes my Lords this I was advised word for word to write L. H. Stew. Who pen'd this for you Did you pen it your self VVright No my Lords they penn'd it and a great while I would not set my hand to it but Jermin Drayton said I need not fear I was not to swear against the King L. H. Steward Who is that VVright He is Butler to Mr. Heveningham L. Stafford See what you have under his hand I have no more to say to him VVright But by their perswasion at last I did wright it and a great deal more then that Sir William Jones I desire to ask Mr. VVright whether they would have had him swore this L. H. Stew. Were you desired to swear this VVright No my Lords they never put me to swear it for they told me I was not to swear against the King but if I would be so kind to make an Affidavit before a Justice of Peace I might then go where I would into the Country and I should have money to bear my charges Sir VVilliam Jones Who would have had you swear it before a Justice of Peace Wright Jermin Drayton and Mr. Longmore where he is I can't tell but he told me that Sir James Symons was better able to perform than Dugdale was to promise Mr. Serj. Maynard The same thing that was done by Redding he was convicted for it and stood in the Pillory Sir Will. Jones We desire to know whether he was ever with Sir James Symons himself and what he offered Wright I was once with him at the Kings Bench I dined there after I had written the Paper that was read he gave me 20 s. and said he hoped I would not go off from what I had said and he hoped I was sensible his gratuity would not be wanting and was sorry he had not occasion to use me Sir Will. Jones My Lords we have done with him I only observe that my Lord Stafford was pleased to produce this Paper he was Master of it and had it in his keeping Sir Fran. VVinnington Wright says there is another Paper of more Consequence I wish his Lordship would produce that also L. Stafford I did not know of this till just now it was delivered into my hands Did you see Mr. Longmore before this Letter was writ VVright Both before and after to the best of my remembrance and at the time when Sir James's Tryal should have been at the Sign of the Crown in Kings-street in Bloomsbury L. H. Steward My Lord will you conclude L. Stafford My Lords I desire your Lordships Pardon I do not know how really to go about it to night I will obey your Commands though I fall down at the Bar. I protest before God I was all night so ill of the Cramp that I had no repose If you will have me go on I will if you will give me but a little time to recollect my self L. H. Steward God forbid when your Lordship is to speak upon so great a Concern and a matter of that importance as this is to you you should be put at the end of the day and in the midst of all your thoughts to sum up your Evidence I do believe if you do desire time till to Morrow my Lords will give it you And if you would have me move my Lords in it I will L. Stafford One word I beseech your Lordships Sir VVilliam Jones We do not oppose it L. Stafford My Lords I desire one thing I am very ignorant in this matter and do not understand it I would desire your Lordships directons to know in what method I must proceed L. H. Stew. Your Lordship is to proceed thus if you please Your Lordship is to recollect and recapitulate all the Proofs you have made and you are to enforce them as well as you can and make such Observations upon them as are for your own advantage and this your Lordship must do for the Fact If there remain a doubt in Law which you may have occasion to move Counsel may be demanded and if it be considerable and worthy of debate you may have Counsel heard to speak to it But the Process is closed no more Witnesses are to be heard There remains only Observations upon the Fact or Law to be made L. Stafford Are no more Witnesses to be heard L. H. Steward No I think not 't is agreed on both sides
Lord Aston's Servants that I desire to observe of him first And what does he say He saith That Dugdale went away for Debt The contrary to which was apparently proved for we by our Witnesses made it manifest that Dugdale went away for the matter of the Plot the fear and dread he was in upon that score and the circumstance of his being apprehended by the Watch at Night in his Flight and how he was put to take the Oaths do manifestly prove this But he says another thing which I desire may have no weight with your Lordships that Dugdale should threaten that because my Lord Aston would not own him for his Servant he would be revenged of him Truly if my Lord Aston were here to be tried it would have some weight But to think if it were true that he had so sworn that therefore he would be so wicked as to do mischief to another man that he would be revenged of every man of that Religion or of every man that came to my Lord Aston's House That cannot be imagined So I cannot see what great stress my Lords the Prisoner can lay upon it as to the present Tryal which concerns my Lord Stafford But My Lords I desire to observe that he says further That when Dugdale went away there was a discourse of a Plot this he helps out Dugdale in and that there was a discourse of the killing of a Justice of Peace So that certainly it does shew that Dugdale was apprehensive of the Plot. And as to that which he is pleased to say That Dugdale should deny his knowledge of the Plot and take Drink and with Execrations forswear it it will be no manner of Objection at all For I shall have occasion to shew hereafter that Dugdale at that time was very far from revealing the Plot he had been so long ingaged in he was in apprehension of the danger of his own life and Southall tells you how and when he revealed it and by what inducements he was prevailed upon to do it The next Witness my Lord called was Philips the Minister of Tixal and truly all that I can accuse him of is want of Memory and that is no fault in a man that perhaps is very studious and careful in his Imployment as I hope he is He tells you that whereas Dugdale swore at a former Tryal that he acquainted Mr. Philips with the death of a Justice of Peace of Westminster on the Munday that he did not acquaint him with it that is he does not remember it for no man that swears a Negative can swear more But whether Mr. Philips Evidence be of any consequence to us we submit to your Lordships consideration when we oppose to his want of Memory two Witnesses that swear he was by when this News was told and we are told likewise as a confirmation of that by two Gentlemen of Quality that the report of such a thing was spread abroad all over that Country before it was possible for it to come by the way of ordinary Intelligence whether therefore what Mr. Philips testifies proceeds from any other cause than want of memory in Mr. Philips I must leave to your Lordships consideration But this I would observe to your Lordships that when Mr. Philips was asked by my Lord whether or no Dugdale were a person likely to perjure himself he could not say so Nay being asked of what Reputation he was of he said by some he was very well spoken of by some but indifferently but I do not remember that he said he was ill spoken of by any So I think Mr. Philips has rather advanced than prejudiced Mr. Dugdale's Reputation and Credit My Lords I think I may lightly pass over the three Justices of Peace that were brought to give an Account of Dugdale's behaviour before them and not mention them distinctly because they swear all to the same purpose That Mr. Dugdale was apprehended upon suspition of the Plot that he took the Oaths that he was invited and urged by them to make a discovery of the Plot which he then denied to have any knowledge of For all this will be answered when we come to re-mind Your Lordships of Mr. Southall's Testimony His Lordship was pleased in the next place to offer to prove Dugdale an ill Man by endeavouring to suborn Witnesses And in the first place he called Robinson who testified a very unlikely thing that Mr. Dugdale should call him in the Street and bring him to an House and offer him Money to swear against my Lord Stafford which Money he had in an Handkerchief but did not tell him what particulars he should swear to Nay and this after he had told him he could swear nothing And it does not appear that Dugdale had any manner of knowledge of him or that this Gentleman Robinson had any knowledge of my Lord Stafford So that it was a very rash and presumptuous thing that Dugdale should attempt a man that he knew not and a very imprudent thing that he should suborn a Witness to swear against a man that the Witness to be suborned did not know But I shall say no more of him because I think upon the Account that has been given of him by a Noble Earl of this House and an Honourable Member of the House of Commons if he had said things in themselves probable he deserves not in the least to be believed My Lords next Witness upon the same Head of Subornation was one Morral a poor Barber and what says he He testifies that Mr. Dugdale did offer him 50 l. to swear against Sir James Symons and some others My Lords whether this be probable or no we must leave to your Lordships We have called Witnesses that prove him a man of no Reputation one that runs up and down the Countrey a kind of Vagabond and I think upon the Endeavours that have been proved to have been used as to others it is no very hard matter to bring a man of his Condition to say as much as he hath done The next Witness is Samuel Holt the Blacksmith and he tells such a Story that if it were true would be some Disparagement to Dugdale and what is that He says that Dugdale sent a Man and a Horse for him to bring him to the Star in Stafford and there offer'd him 40 l. to swear that one Moore carried away Evers My Lords how this Story comes in I cannot imagine why Mr. Dugdale should bear any ill will to Moore or what should induce him to intice this man to swear against Moore or what else was in it it doth not appear But no matter what it is for we prove against this man by two Witnesses Rawlins and Lander By the First that he is a man of ill Reputation very zealous to support the Plot and cry down Mr. Dugdale saying that he was a Rogue and all they were Rogues that took part with him And by the other Witness Lander that Holt did
I hope your Lordships will not alter the form for I hope you will keep that great Maxim of your Noble Ancestors Nolumus Leges Angliae mutare and whether this be a Change of the Law or no I submit it to your Lordships A third thing is this Your Lordships do not think fit that my Counsel shall plead to that Point whether Words do amount to an Overt Act for hearing my Counsel to that likewise I do not pretend but I hope your Lordships will give me leave to say this I never heard that Words did amount to an Overt Act if your Lordships judge otherwise I submit but till then I hope it shall not conclude me There were some other Points which I did offer to your Lordships and I humbly beseech you to know whether my Counsel shall be heard to them 't is true one of them which was whether two Witnesses in several places did amount to a legal Testimony or no your Lordships did not declare one way or another If you say you acquiesce in the Opinion of the Judges I must submit but till Judgment is given I beseech your Lordships to give me leave to tell you my weak thoughts about it I did not hear what the Judges said all of them but as I apprehend they were all of one Opinion 'T is true one of them that spoke last I think it was Judge Atkins did say it did amount to a legal Testimony because else those Juries that have found some Guilty upon the same sort of Evidence should be perjured but if this were not so then upon the same grounds under your Lordships favour those Juries that acquitted some upon such Testimony were perjured but I must believe it to be otherwise till your Lordships have declared it as your Opinion for that reason will not hold for the same reason will be for the perjuring the one as for the perjuring the other And the same Juries for the most part tryed those that were found guilty and those that were acquitted Lord High Steward Is this all your Lordship will please to say Lord Stafford No my Lords if you would give me leave I would trouble you a little farther if it were an Offence I would not say a word My Lords I do conceive I am not concerned in the general Plot of the Papists for I am not proved to be so and whatsoever I may be in my self as I conceive or whatsoever there is of hearsay I hope your Lordships will not go upon that but upon what is proved Secundum allegata probata and that common Fame will condemn no man if it do then no man is safe but I must say there is not one word of proof offered that I am a Papist I hope my Lords I have cleared my self to your Lordships and made my Innocency appear by making appear the perjury of the Witnesses and the falshood of those things they said against me Against Dugdale I have proved it by two of his own Witnesses the one was Eld the woman that swore for him That he took up a Glass of Cyder and wished that it might be his Poyson if he knew any thing of the Plot the other was Whitby who says he had given my Lord Aston's Father warning long ago what a Knave he was So 't is clear for Dr. Oats I hope from his Contradictions against himself as well as Dugdale who does contradict himself at one time August at another time the latter end of August or the beginning of September And I hope your Lordships will give no credit to Oats's Testimony for he said before your Lordships he had declared all he knew 't is true I was then accused but not for having a Commission as he now swears and afterwards he accused the Queen so here is Oats against Oats and Dugdale against Dugdale and for Turbervill I have proved by his Affidavit first he swears one thing and then another and the truth of it is his Brother proved him false in his last Oath that it was 7â— and not 72. My Lords 'T is not my part to make any Question nor do I whether a Plot or no Plot for I am not concerned in it If what I shall say now be impertinent I humbly beg your Lordships pardon My Lords I have been by the most of my Friends at least every one that came to me particularly by my Wife and Daughter that is near me persuaded to tell all that I knew and I do here in the presence of Almighty God declare what I know to be true Lord High Steward What says my Lord Speak out Lord Stafford My Lords I do believe since the Reformation from the Church of Rome to what it is now Established the Church of England those of that Religion have had several wicked and ill Designs and Plots I do believe they had a Design in Queen Elizabeth's time Babbington's Plot that is a long time ago how far it was to take away the Queens Life I can't tell but a Plot it was I do believe there was another in her time called Earl of Westmorland's Plot wherein there was a Rebeâ—â—ion in the North for which some fled and some were Executed that was a very ill design As for those poysonings of her Saddle and the like I take them to be but stories In King James's time in the first year of his Reign there was a wicked Plot composed by Actors some of one Religion some of another there was my Lord Grey my Lord Cobham my Lord Brooke and others such they were condemned all of them some fled as Markham and Bainham those Lords and Sir Walter Rawleigh were Reprived and kept long in the Tower But Sir Walter Rawleigh was afterwards upon that same Judgment Beheaded and the Lords dyed in the Tower My Lords Next to that was the Execrable Treason that I spoke of at first the Gun-powder-Treason And I protest before Almighty God I did from my Infancy detest and abhor those men that were engaged in it and I do think and always did think the Wit of Man nor the Devils Malice can't invent an Excuse for it For the men concerned they all acknowledged it confessed it and beg'd pardon of the King and God and all good men for it that is all I shall say to that now My Lords Since his Majesties happy Restauration I do conceive and I think I may safely say it for you all know it he was gracious and good to all Dissentersd particularly to them of the Romish Church they had Connivance and Indulgence in their private Houses and I declare to your Lordships I did then say to some that were too open in their Worship that they did play foul in taking more Liberty upon them than was fitting for them too and that brought the misfortune upon me which I will not name My Lordâ— it was not long ago that your Lordships at your own Bar did allow all the Dissenters from the Church of England
gave us intelligence of several passages that happened in Court how the Duke and the Queen and the chief of the Nobility were of their side how they carried matters several times the ways my Lord Clifford did use and Sir William Godolphin to effect the work and that they did not question but they should get my Lord Treasurer Danby on their side too This was in Coleman's Letters and he had so much allowance for his Intelligence These Letters of his I read several times in the Colledge My Lords afterwards when I came from Rome I saw Abbot Montague again and he said he was very glad to see me and that I was a Priest well but said I what am I the better where is the Employment you promised me when I should come into England He told me I should have it very soon and he was very glad that I had not made my self a Jesuit and he recommended me to Dr. Goffe Confessor to the Queen Mother who said he would do any thing in the world for me and he did not doubt but he should get a preferment for me which Dr. Goffe is now living Truly when I came into England I found all the Popish Clergy of England that I discoursed with of the same opinion that they did not doubt but the Romish Religion would soon come in And besides in the North there was gathering of Money in which I was ordered to be one of the chief men but I was against it I told them I would do nothing in it I thought it was illegal to send any Money beyond Sea they told me it was charity only to repair the College at Doway I told them it was strange that there should be so much Money raised only to repair one College which would serve three or four Colleges and I perswaded Mr. Jenison and all other persons I had to do with not to meddle with it As to this raising of the Money I conceive it may be inferr'd it was for some other private business and I believe was for the carrying on the design As for the Gentleman at the Bar my Lord Stafford I know nothing of my own particular knowledge but only this Therewas one Thomas Smith Sir Edward Smith's Brother that lived at a place not far off the place where I lived who was one that contributed in paying the Money that was then Collecting he was the man that writ a Letter up to my Lord Stafford to complain of two or three Justices of the Peace that were active against Popery upon which there was one that was turned out that I think is now of the Honourable House of Commons Mr. Treby Name him Mr. Smith Sir Henry Calverley The other was not turned out So I asked Smith when I was lately in the Country about it for I heard a rumor that there was a Letter of this Mr. Smiths found in my Lord Staffords Chamber and I was told it by a Parliament Man one Collonel Tempest So said I to him now you will be concerned in the Plot. No said he I care not for that Letter it will signifie nothing for my Lord won't keep by him any thing of any moment I asked him what he knew about my Lord he told me he writ another Letter to my Lord to know whether he would make a conveyance of his Estate away and whether he apprehended they were in danger And he told me his Lordships answer was that several did so but he would not for he expected some sudden change or alteration I asked him what change or alteration he understood by it Sir said he what can be understood by it but an alteration of the Government and Religion I am sure said he my Lord is so wise a Man that he would not write so without some ground This is all I can say to the Gentleman at the Bar and this is true by the Oath I have taken Mr. Treby My Lords I did observe Mr. Smith in the beginning of his Testimony speaking of the Discourse he had at Rome said they told him there was one in the way I presume 't is not uneasy to conjecture who was that one Lord High Stew. It was surely the King Mr. Treby But we would rather have it explained by him himself Mr. Smith Father Anderton and Father Southwell did say that the King was a good man but he was not for their turn and he was the only man that stood in the way Mr. Treby Did they name the King Mr. Smith Yes it was the common Discourse all over the Country Mr. Treby My Lords I desire Mr. Smith in the next place may give an account of the methods they were to use to accomplish this design the firing of the City and the rest Mr. Smith As to the burning of London I heard nothing beyond Seas at all but this it was discoursed that the Papists did it and the like but they denied it and they said it came accidentally in a Bakers House but this I have often heard them say that it was no great matter if it had been all burnt Lord High Stew. Will you ask him any more Questions yet Mr. Treby No we have done with him Lord High Stew. Have you concluded your Evidence Sir Mr. Smith Yes Lord High Stew. My Lord Stafford will your Lordship ask him any Questions Lord Stafford I desire to know how long ago it was my Lord since he was made a Priest Sir Fran. Winn. My Lords with your Lordships leave no man is bound to answer a Question whereby he shall accuse himself therefore under favour the Question is somewhat harsh and we demand your Judgment in it Lord High Stew. What is the Question your Lordship would have asked him L. Stafford I will not ask it since 't is an offence but did not he say he said Mass pray how long ago was that Lord High Stew. I will ask him a Question Are not you a Protestant Mr. Smith Yes my Lord. Lord High Stew. How long have you been so Mr. Smith I have been a Protestant near upon two Years Lord High Stew. How long ago before were you perverted Mr. Smith Some six or seven Years Lord High Stew. That is nine Years That was I suppose about 71. Mr. Smith I was always bred a Protestant and was so abroad till I went towards Rome Lord High Stew. It is not criminal to have been a Priest if he have conformed L. Stafford I have no more to say to him Lord High Stew. Have you any more Questions to ask him L. Stafford No I never saw him before he may be as honest a Gentleman for ought I know as any one here Mr. Treby Then if your Lordship have no more Questions to ask him he may withdraw My Lords The next Witness we produce is to the general still and that is Mr. Stephen Dugdale Lord Stafford Is he only to speak to the general or to me Mr. Treby To the general we shall tell your Lordship
cowardly and sought themselves and not the Interest of the Church or to that purpose My Lords in March we received Letters that there was a very shrewd attempt made upon the person of the King and that the Flint of Pickering's Gun or Pistol was loose and his hand shaking the King did then escape for which he received a Discipline and the other a severe chiding Lord High Steward You explain not the meaning of what you say that was not honest William for he you say was Grove Dr. Oats I mean Pickering received the Discipline and William was chid for it was Pickering's Flint that was loose My Lords this was in March and at the latter end of March there comes a Letter from London in which there was a Summons to a Consult here in London and being summoned there went over eight or nine from St Omers Liege and Ghent to this Consult and I did attend then in their journey Lord High Steward When did that Summons come Dr. Oats The latter end of March or the beginning of April as I remember they had notice of it in England before but we had notice of it just when we were to come I think it was in April as near as I can remember I cannot be certain in that my Lord. We did come to Town in April there the Consult was held it begun at the White Horse Tavern where they did consult about some things of the Society and afterwards they did adjourn into particular Societies where they did debate and resolve on the Death of the King and that Grove should have fifteen hundred pounds for his pains and the other being a Religious man should have thirty thousand Masses said for him My Lords after staying in Town a while we returned to St. Omers and after I had staid there some few days the new Provincial did begin to visit his Province and comes over to St. Omers where after staying some six days he goes over away from thence to Wotion But whilst he staid at St. Omers I was ordered to go into England to attend the Affairs here and for to do some other Services that they should imploy me about My Lords accordingly I did come over and it was on the 23. new stile as near as I remember I got to Calice the 24. I got to Dover on the 25. I got to Sittenburn but between Dover and Sittenburn we had some Boxes seized for at Dover we met with Fenwick who is since executed who went by the name of Thompson and carried a Box with him and a little on this side Canterbury it was seized by the Custom-House Officers and several little Trinkets in it which were seized as French Goods and he did desire the Searcher to stand his friend and he would give him something for his pains and told him where he should write to him in London There was a Superscription on the Box to one Blundel but he should write to him by the name of Thompson at the Fountain Tavern neer Charing-Cross We arrived in Town the 17. of June which is the 27. new stile it was upon a Monday and there were Letters which did follow us wherein were proposals to be made to Sir George Wakeman for the Poisoning of the King and that the Ten Thousand Pounds which the Spaniards had promised in January before and was accordingly paid in London at the time should be proposed to Wakeman to poison the King I found that Coleman did look upon it as too little and he thought Fifteen Thousand Pound should be given to him I found that Langhorn thought it too much and that he ought to do so great a piece of Service for nothing and told us he was a narrow-spirited man if he would not ingage in such a thing My Lords there was Five Thousand Pounds as the Books told me paid but I did not then see it paid because I was then ill and not fit to stir abroad My Lords we are now past June 78. In July Father Ashby comes to Town who did revive the Proposal to Sir George Wakeman but being sick of the Gout he hastened down to the Bath and when he came there as soon as he began to be well he was advised by the Fathers to see how the Catholicks stood affected in Sommerset shire for they had had an Account in March 78. by Letters from Berkshire Oxfordshire and Essex that the Catholicks stood well affected and Sir William Andrews did secure that the people of Essex should stand to their points and so several men did secure that they would have them in readiness My Lords In August I cannot remember every particular but refer my self to the Records of the House about the 26. of August I find that Fenwick went to St. Omers and there he was to attend the Provincial home and to give the Provincial an Account of the Proposal accepted by Sir George Wakeman but in July if your Lordships please to give me leave to go back again Strange comes to Town and falling in discourse about the Fire of London and the Rebuilding of it he very frankly told me how it was fired and how many of those concerned were seized and among the rest told me that the Duke of York's Guard as by his order did receive them and afterwards willing to discharge them which I forgot to mention before but upon review of my Papers I do find that it was told me his Guard did release the Prisoners that were taken as suspected about the Fire and that all the Order they had for it they pretended was from the Duke But now my Lords We return to August again Upon the 3. of August I find Ireland did pretend to go to St. Omers and a Letter came from him as directed from thence but we find by his Tryal and other things since that he went into Stafford shire and about the 12. of August as I remember he was here in Town The latter part of July I communicated with Dr. Tongue and gave him some particular account of Affairs I desired him to communicate it to some that might make it known to the King the King had notice the 13. of August or the 14. as I remember and by the 3. of September I was betray'd and was exposed to the vengeance of these men whose Contrivances I had thus discovered So my Intelligence did cease wholly the 8. of September Then was I forced to keep private and upon my Examination what Information I gave before the Lords and Commons I refer my self to them Lord High Steward My Lord Stafford will you ask him any Questions Lord Stafford No my Lord I am not at all concerned in his Evidence Lord High Steward You say you were betray'd can you tell how or which way you were betray'd Dr. Oats My Lord I will give this Honourable House what light I can in it but I desire then to be excused from my Oath for I can't speak it of my own
John Trevor Then we desire they may be produced here and the Copies proved upon Oath and then we shall leave them upon your Lordships Table And my Lords we desire likewise at the same time to save another trouble there may be delivered in the Convictions of Reading Lane Knox and others Then Mr. Clare was Sworn and delivered in the Copies of the Records L. H. Stew. What Record is that Mr. Clare It is the Record of the Attainder of Coleman for high Treason L. H. Stew. Did you examine it Mr. Clare I did examine it L. H. Stew. Is it a true Copy Mr. Clare To the best of my understanding it is Here is likewise a Copy of the Record of the Conviction of Ireland Pickering and Grove for high Treason L. H. Stew. Is there Judgment of Attainder entred upon Record Mr. Clare Yes my Lords there is Judgement entred Here is a Copy of the Indictment Conviction and Attainder of Whitebread Fenwick Harcourt Gavan and Turner for high Treason Here is a Copy of the Record of Attainder of Richard Langhorn for high Treason Here is a Copy of the Attainder of Green Berry and Hill for the Murder of Sir Edmond-bury Godfrey Here is a Copy of the Conviction of Mr. Nathaniel Reading for endeavouring to Suborn Mr. Bedlow to retract his Evidence against some of the Lords in the Tower and Sir Henry Tichbourn L. H. Stew. What is the Judgment there Mr. Clare The Judgment is entred upon it and 't is to pay 1000 l. Fine and to be put in and upon the Pillory in the Palace Yard Westminster for an hour with a Paper upon his head written in great Letters For endeavouring Subornation of Perjury Here is a Copy of the Record of the Conviction of Tasbrough and Price for endeavouring to Suborn Mr. Dugdale and Judgment entred upon it And here is a Copy of the Record of Conviction of Knox and Lane for Conspiring to asperse Dr. Oats and Mr. Bedlow Here is the Record of the Conviction of John Giles for barbarously attempting to Assassinate John Arnold Esq one of His Majesties Justices of the Peace and the Judgment entred thereupon is To stand three times on the Pillory with a Paper on his Hat declaring his Offence to pay â—00 l. to the King to lie in Execution till the same be paid and find Sureties for his Good Behaviour during life L. H. Stew. Deliver them all in And if my Lords have occasion to doubt of any thing being left in the Court they will be there ready â—o be used All which were then delivered in Mr. Treby My Lords we humbly desire that the Record of Coleman may be read because there is more of special matter in it than any of the rest and your Lordships may dispose of the others as you please L. H. Stew. Read the Record of Coleman Then the Clerk read in Latin the Record of the Attainder of Edward Coleman formerly Executed for high Treason by him Committed in this horrid Popish Plot which in English is as followeth viz. Of the Term of Saint MICHAEL in the Thirtieth Year of the Reign of King CHARLES the Second c. Middlesex AT another time to wit on VVednesday next after eight days of St. Martin this same Term before our Lord the King at VVestminster by the Oath of Twelve Jurors honest and lawful Men of the County aforesaid Sworn and Charged to Enquire for our said Lord the King and the Body of the County aforesaid it stands presented That Edward Coleman late of the Parish of Saint Margaret VVestminster in the County of Middlesex Gentleman as a false Traitor against the most Illustrious most Serene and most Excellent Prince our Lord CHARLES the Second by the Grace of God of England Scotland France and Ireland King Defender of the Faith c. and his Natural Lord not having the Fear of God in his Heart nor weighing the Duty of his Allegiance but by the instigation of the Devil moved and seduced the cordial Love and the true due and Natural Obedience which true and faithful Subjects of our said Lord the King towards Him our said Lord the King ought and of right are bound to bear utterly withdrawing and devising and with his whole Strength intending the Peace and common Tranquility of this Kingdom of England to disturb and the true Worship of God within this Kingdom of England practised and by Law established to overthrow and Sedition and Rebellion within this Realm of England to move stir up and procure and the cordial Love and true and due Obedience which true and faithful Subjects of our said Lord the King towards Him our said Lord the King should bear and of right are bound to bear utterly to withdraw blot out and extinguish and our said Lord the King to death and final destruction to bring and put the 29 th day of September in the 27 th year of the Reign of our Lord CHARLES the Second by the Grace of God of England Scotland France and Ireland King Defender of the Faith c. at the Parish of St. Margaret VVestminster aforesaid in the County aforesaid falsly maliciously subtilly and traiterously proposed compassed imagined and intended Sedition and Rebellion within this Realm of England to move raise up and procure and a miserable Slaughter among the Subjects of our said Lord the King to procure and cause and our said Lord the King from his Kingly State Title Power and Government of His Realm of England utterly to deprive depose deject and disinherit and Him our said Lord the King to Death and final Destruction to bring and put and the Government of the same Realm and the sincere Religion of God in this Kingdom rightly and by the Laws of this Realm established for his Will and Pleasure to change and alter and the State of this whole Kingdom in its universal parts well instituted and ordained wholly to subvert and destroy and War against our said Lord the King within this Realm of England to levy and to accomplish and fulfil these his most wicked Treasons and traiterous Imaginations and Purposes aforesaid The same Edward Coleman afterwards to wit the said Twenty ninth day of September in the abovesaid Twenty Seventh year of the Reign of our said Lord the King at the Parish of Saint Margaret VVestminster aforesaid in the County of Middlesex aforesaid falsly subtilly and traiterously devised composed and writ two Letters to be sent to one Monsieur Le Chese then Servant and Confessor of Lewis the French King to desire procure and obtain to the said Edward Coleman and other false Traitors against our said Soveragin Lord the King from the said French King his Aid Assistance and Adherence to alter the true Religion in this Kingdom then and still Established to the Superstition of the Church of Rome and to Subvert the Government of this Kingdom of England And afterwards to wit the said Twenty Ninth Day of September in the abovesaid Twenty Seventh Year
of the Reign of our said Lord now King of England c. at the aforesaid Parish of Saint Margaret VVestminster in the County of Middlesex aforesaid falsly and traiterously devised composed and writ two other Letters to be sent to one Monsieur Le Chese then Servant and Confessor of the said French King to the intent that he the said Monsieur Le Chese should intreat procure and obtain to the said Edward Coleman and other false Traitors against our said Soveraign Lord the King from the aforesaid French King his Aid Assistance and Adherence to alter the true Religion in this Kingdom of England then and still Established to the Superstition of the Church of Rome and to Subvert the Government of this Kingdom of England And that the aforesaid Edward Coloman in further prosecution of his Treasons and Traiterous Imaginations and Purposes aforesaid afterwards to wit the same Twenty Ninth Day of September in the abovesaid Twenty Seventh Year of the Reign of our said now Lord the King the aforesaid several Letters from the said Parish of Saint Margaret Westminster in the County of Middlesex aforesaid falsly subtilly and traiterously did send into Parts beyond the Seas there to be delivered to the said Monsieur Le Chese And that the aforesaid Edward Coleman afterwards to wit the First Day of December in the Twenty Seventh Year of the Reign of our Soveraign Lord CHARLES the Second now King of England c. at the aforesaid Parish of Saint Margaret Westminster in the County of Middlesex aforesaid one Letter from the aforesaid Mounsieâ—r Lâ— Chesâ— in answer to one of the said Letters so by him the said Edward Coleman writ and to the said Monsieur Lâ— Cheâ—e to be sent first mentioned falsly subtilly and traiterously received and that Letter so in answer received the Day and Year last abovesaid at the aforesaid Parish of Saint Margaret Westminster aforesaid in the County of Middlesex aforesaid falsly subtilly and traiterously did inspect and read over and that the aforesaid Edward Coleman the Letter aforesaid so by him in answer received in his custody and possession the day and year last aforesaid at the aforesaid Parish of St. Margaret Westminster in the County of Middlesex aforesaid falsly subtilly and traiterously detained concealed and kept By which said Letter the said Monsieur Le Chese the day and year last abovesaid at the aforesaid Parish of St. Margaret Westminster in the County of Middlesex aforesaid signified and promised to the said Edward Coleman to obtain for him the said Edward Coleman and other false Traitors against our said Lord the King from the said French King his Aid Assistance and Adherence And that the aforesaid Edward Coleman afterwards to wit the Tenth day of December in the abovesaid Twenty seventh Year of the Reign of our said Soveraign Lord Charles the Second now King of England c. at the Parish of St. Margaret VVestminster aforesaid in the County of Middlesex aforesaid falsly maliciously subtilly and traiterously did relate and declare his traiterous Designs and Purposes aforesaid to one Monsieur Roâ—vigni then Envoy Extraordinary from the French King to our said most Serene King at the Parish aforesaid in the County aforesaid residing to move and excite him the said Envoy Extraordinary with him the said Edward Coleman in his Treasons aforesaid to partake And the sooner to fulfil and compleat those his wicked Treasons and traiterous imaginations and purposes aforesaid he the said Edward Coleman afterward to wit December 19. in the abovesaid 27 th year of the Reign of our said Lord Charles the Second now King of England c. at the aforesaid Parish of S. Margaret Westminster in the County of Middlesex aforesaid advisedly maliciously subtilly and traiterously did devise compose and write three other Letters to be sent to one Sir William Throgmorton Knt. then a Subject of our now Lord the King of this Kingdom of England and residing in France in Parts beyond the Seas to sollicite him the aforesaid Monsieur Le Chese to procure obtain of the said French King his Aid Assistance and Adherence aforesaid And those Letters last mentioned afterwards to wit the day and year last abovesaid from the aforesaid Parish of St. Margaret Westminster in the County of Middlesex aforesaid to the same Sir William Throgmorton in France aforesaid falsly and traiterously did send and cause to be delivered against the duty of his Allegiance and against the Peace of our said now Lord the King his Crown and Dignity and against the Form of the Statute in such case made and provided Wherefore 〈◊〉 was commanded the Sheriff of the County aforesaid that he should not omit c but that he should take him if c. to answer c And now to wit on Saturday next after eight days of St. Martin this same Term before our Lord the King at Westminster came the aforesaid Edw. Coleman under the Custody of Will. Richardson Gent Keeper of the Gaol of our said Lord the King of Newgate by vertue of the King 's Writ of Habeas Corpus ad Subjiciend c. into whose custody before then for the cause aforesaid he was committed to the Bar here brought in his proper person who is committed to the Marshal c. and presently of the Premisses to him above imposed being asked how he will thereof be acquitted saith that he is in no wise thereof guilty and thereof for good and evil doth put himself upon the Country Therefore let a Jury thereupon come before our Lord the King at Westminster on Wednesday next after fifteen days of St. Martin and who c. to recognize c. because c. the same day is given to the said Edward Coleman c. under the custody of the said Keeper of the Gaol of our said Lord the King of Newgate aforesaid in the mean time committed to be safely kept until c. At which Wednesday next after fifteen days of St Martin before our Lord the King at Westminster came the aforesaid Edward Coleman under custody of the aforesaid keeper of the Kings Gaol of Newgate aforesaid by vertue of a Writ of our Lord the King of Habeas Corpus ad Subjiciend c. to the Bar here brought in his proper person who is committed to the aforesaid Keeper of the Kings Gaol of Newgate aforesaid And the Jurors of the Jury aforesaid by the Sheriff of the County aforesaid hereunto impannelled being called came who being chosen tryed and sworn to speak the Truth upon the Premisses say upon their Oaths that the aforesaid Edward Coleman is guilty of the High Treason aforesaid in the Indictment aforesaid specified in manner and Form as by the said Indictment above against him his supposed and that the aforesaid Edward Coleman at the time of perpetration of the High Treason aforesaid or at any time afterwards had no Goods Chattels Lands or Tenements to the knowledge of the Jurors aforesaid And the aforesaid Edward Coleman
being asked if he hath any thing or knows what to say for himself why the Court here ought not to proceed to Judgment and Execution of him upon the Verdict aforesaid saith nothing but as before he had said And hereupon instantly the Attorney General of our said Lord the King according to due form of Law demandeth against him the said Edward Judgment and Execution to be had upon the Verdict aforesaid for our Lord the King Whereupon all and singular the Premisses being viewed and by the Court here understood It is considered That the said Edward Coleman be led by the said Keeper of the Gaol of Newgate aforesaid unto Newgate aforesaid from thence directly be drawn to the Gallows of Tyburn and upon those Gallows there be hanged and be cut down alive to the Earth and his Entrals be taken out of hiâ— Belly and be burned he still living and that the Head of him be cut off and that the Body of him be divided into Four parts and that those Head and Quarters be put where our Lord the King will assign them c. L. Staff I do not hear one word he says my Lords L. H. Stew. My Lord this does not concern your Lordship any further than as to the generality of the Plot. Sir Will. Jones My Lords we have now done with our Proofs for the first general head that we opened which was to make it out that there was a Plot in general We now come to give our particular Evidence against this very Lord and before we do begin we think fit to acquaint your Lordships that our Evidence will take up some time if your Lordships will have the patience to hear it now we will give it but if your Lordships will not sit so long till we can finish it it may be some inconvenience to us to break off in the middle And therefore we humbly offer it to your Lordships consideration whether you will hear it now or no. L. H. Stew. If it cannot be all given and heard now it were better all should be given to morrow Sir Will. Jones If your Lordships please then we will reserve it till to morrow L. Staff My Lords I would only have your directions whether I shall answer this General first or stay till all be said against me That which I have to say to this General will be very short L. H. Stew. My Lord you are to make all your Answer entire and that is best for you L. Staff I am very well contented that I may be the better prepared for it L. H. Stew. Is it your Lordships pleasure that we should Adjourn into the Parliament Chamber Lords Ay Ay. L. H. Stew. Then this House is Adjourned into the Parliament Chember And the Lords went away in the same Order they came The Commons returned to their House and Mr. Speaker resumed the Chair and then the House Adjourned to eight of the clock the next morning The Second Day Wednesday December 1. 1680. A Message was sent from the Lords by Sir Timothy Baldwyn and Sir Samuel Clark Mr Speaker The Lords have sent us to acquaint this House That they intend to proceed to the Tryal of William Viscount Stafford at ten of the clock this morning in Westminster-Hall Mr. Speaker left the Chair and the Commons came into Westminster Hall in the new erected Court And the Managers appointed by the Commons went into the Room prepared for them in that Court to proceed to the particular Evidence against William Viscount Stafford About ten of the clock in the morning the Lords came into the said Court in their former Order and Proclamation being made of Silence and for the Lieutenant of the Tower to bring his Prisoner to the Bar they proceeded L. H. Stew. My Lords expect you should go on with your Evidence and proceed in the Tryal of this Noble Lord. L. Stafford My Lords if your Lordships please I humbly desire that my Counsel may be near me for the Arguing of what is fit to them to speak to as to points of Law for points of Fact I do not desire it L. H. Stew. My Lord you have an Order for your Counsel to attend and they must and ought to attend Mr. Serjeant Maynard The Counsel must not suggest any thing to him while the Evidence is giving they are not to be heard as to matter of Fact L. H. Stew. It is not intended to make use of Counsel as to matter of Fact but they may stand by Mr. Serjeant Maynard My Lords they may stand within hearing but not within prompting L. Staff I assure you if I had all the Counsel in the world I would not make use of them for any matter of Fact Mr. Treby My Lords will you please to order them to stand at a convenient distance that they may not prompt the Prisoner Sir Will. Jones My Lords I hope your Lordships will consider that a man in a Capital Cause ought not to have Counsel to matter of Fact 'T is true he may advise with his Counsel I deny it not but for him in the face of the Court to communicate with his Counsel and by them be told what he shall say as to matters of Fact is that which with submission is not to be allowed If your Lordships order they shall be within hearing I do not oppose it but then I desire they may stand at that distance that there may be no means of intercouse unless points in Law do arise L. H. Stew. You were best make that exception when there is Cause for it in the mean time go on with your Evidence Sir Franc. Winn. We did perceive his Counsel came up towards the Bar and very near him and therefore we thought it our duty to speak before any inconvenience happened This Lord being accused of High Treason the allowing of Counsel is not a matter of Discretion If matters of Law arise all our Books say that Counsel ought to be allowed But we pray that there may be no Counsel to advise him in matter of Fact nor till your Lordships find some Question of Law to arise upon the Evidence L. H. Stew. When there is Cause take the Exception but they do not as yet misbehave themselves Mr. Treby My Lords we presume your Lordships did from the strength and clearness of yesterdays Evidence receive full satisfaction concerning the general Plot and Conspiracy of the Popish Party It being an Evidence apparently invincible not out of the mouths of two or three Witnesses only but of twice that number or more credible persons Upon which we doubt not but your Lordships who hear and Strangers and unborn Posterity when they shall hear will justifie this Prosecution of the Commons and will allow that this Impeachment is the proper voice of the Nation crying out as when the knife is at the throat By the Evidence already given I say it is manifeâ—t that there was a general grand Design to destroy our
Lord Stafford I will willingly dye if ever I saw this Doctor in my life Dr. Oats I excuse my Lord for that for I was in another habit and I went by another Name and your Lordships do remember I came in another habit to make the first Discovery Lord Stafford My Lord I never saw his face nor know him nor Fenwick or Thompson otherwise than one Thompson a Merchant at Brussels Dr. Oats But my Lords I have one thing more to say of my Lord Stafford my Lord Stafford went into France I can't say the year but I believe it is within the term of 6 or 7. but he went over to France and it did appear by letters from him that Seignior Con was made choice of to heal the Difference between the Regulars and the Seculars and Seignior Con did come over in the year 76. and there did make a kind of a peace among them which lasted whilst Con stayed here and Con did bring over Messages to which my Lord Stafford if he tells any truth in his own letter did return answers Lord Stafford For the present all I say to it is this I never writ any one letter this 25 years nor had any correspondence with any Jesuit Lord High Steward I beseech your Lordship make me capable of serving your Lordship by letting me hear what you say Lord Stafford My Lord I have a great Cold and can speak no louder I desire to ask this Witness no more Questions at present but I say I never writ any letters to any Priest this 25 years Mr Foley Then my Lords if my Lord hath done we will call another Witness and that is Mr. Edward Turbervile Who was sworn L. H. Steward Look upon the Prisoner Do you know my Lord Stafford Mr. Turbervile Yes my Lord. L. H. Steward Raise your voice and speak deliberately Mr. Treby Give an account of your knowledge and use your own method Mr. Turbervile My Lords in the year 1675. I was perswaded by my Lady Powis and one Morgan that was Confessor to the Family to go to Doway in order to take upon me the Fryars Habit. When I came there instead of Religion I found nothing but Hypocrisie and Villainy among them and quickly grew weary of staying there and with much difficulty I escaped thence to go for England when I came into England I did not think that my Friends would look unkindly upon me because I refused to live in that way that they proposed to me to live in I used all the means I could to have them reconciled and made applications to them that since I could not bear with the life they would have had me lived in they would contrive some way for me being a younger Brother that I might live in the world but they were so averse and inveterate against me that they told me instead of doing any thing for me they would do me all the mischief and prejudice they could and having lived all my time among them I thought the World would receive a Character of me from them who were my Relations as they would please to represent it so having no hopes in England I took a resolution to go into France where I had a Brother that was a Benedictine Monk and I hoped that he being in good repute amongst them might be able to do me some service there When I came to Paris my Brother used all the endeavours imaginable to get me to be of that Order but I having so ill a conceit and opinion of the Order that I was in before and thinking all the rest were the same I was unwilling at all to enter into it And after I had staid there a while I resolved to come over into England My Brother used all the means he could for my accommodation and recommended me to this Noble Lord the Prisoner at the Bar who lodged then at a corner house in a Street which as I remember bears the name of La Rue de Beaufort where I was several times with him in order to come over with him in the Yaught for England After I had been there for a fortnight with this Lord he understanding my condition by my Brother and by the other Fathers of that Convent and imagining I was a fit instrument to be employed on such an occasion propos'd to me a way whereby as he said I might not only retrieve my Reputation with my Relations but also make my self a very happy man and after having exacted from me all the obligations of secresie which I could give him he at length told me in direct terms it was to take away the life of the King of England who was an Heretick and consequently a Rebel against God Almighty I looked upon it as an extraordinary attempt and desired time to consider of it before I would undertake it And I gave him this answer I would give him my resolution at Diep where we were to go on board for England And when I came to take my leave of this Noble Lord at the Bar he was sitting upon a bench and he was troubled with the Gout in his foot at that time And he told me he had some business to go to Versailles and that he should not be in six or seven days at Diep where I was to wait for him After a while I received a letter at Diep from his Lordship wherein he writ word That he had altered his resolution and would go by the way of Calice and that I should hasten to wait on his Lordship at London I have one thing more to observe to your Lordships when I got passage from Diep in a Fisher-boat for England I never came neer my Lord Stafford because being not willing to undertake his proposal I thought my self not safe even from my own Relations and therefore I made my applications to the Duke of Monmouth and his Grace was pleased by letter to recommend me into the French service and by that means I avoided his Lordships further importunity Lord High Steward You say my Lord did propose to you the Killing of the King did he plainly make the proposal in direct terms to kill the King Mr. Turbervile Yes he did my Lord. Lord High Steward What did he offer you to do it Mr. Turbervile Nothing for I would not accept of it I told him it was a matter of great concernment and I ought to consider of it and I took time to think of it and would give him my answer at Diep which he came not to and so there was an end of it Lord High Steward What ingagements of secresie had you given my Lord before he opened himself so plainly to you Mr. Turbervile I gave my Lord my word and my promise that I would not discover it to any person directly nor indirectly my Lord had nothing of an Oath from me L. H. Steward Will you ask him any more Questions Gentlemen Sir Will. Jones No my Lords L. H. Steward Will your
they have can in the least absolve me of my Allegigiance And I do acknowledge the King is my Soveraign and I ought to obey him as far as the Law of the Land obliges any Subject of his to obey him whether I have taken the Oath of Allegiance I appeal to your Lordships to be my Witnesses and if I did not take it a thousand times for my Allegiance to the King if required I think I should deserve a thousand Deaths and all the Torments in the world for refusing it My Lords These Gentlemen here did begin their Charge Serjeant Maynard and Sir Francis Winnington with telling your Lordships there was an horrid Design to murder the King to alter the Government and introduce the Popish Religon This they say was ingaged in by the Roman Catholicks that all the Church of Rome were the Contrivers of it for they tell your Lordships the whole Body hath been ingaged in it and they have given you many Proofs by Witnesses examined the first day of a General Plot what Credit you will give to them I leave to your Lordships in the end of the Case but still they said it was the Body of the Roman Catholicks in England or the Papists or what they call them that were the Plotters in this Design But I beseech your Lordships how am I concerned in it for I must say to your Lordships they have not offered one proof that I am of that Religion So that though any of you should have seen me at the Exercises of that Religion or otherwise know it of your selves yet if there be no Proof judicially before you you are not to take notice of it I have heard if a man be accused of a Crime and be to be tryed and no Evidence come in if every man of the Jury were sure that the Fact was done yet they must go upon the Evidence produced to them and not upon their own knowledge So then no Evidence being produced before your Lordships about my being a Papist you are not to take me for such an one But my Lords if I were of that Church and that were never so well proved too I hope I have an advantage in it that I have kept my self from being poysoned with so wicked a Principle or ingaged with the rest in so ill a thing My Lords I am here accused of having endeavoured to kill the King I find by the Law upon reading Sir Edward Coke since my Imprisonment That all Accusations of Treason ought to be accompanied with Circumstances antecedent concomitant and subsequent but I conceive my Lords there is no tittle of any such thing proved against me The whole compass of my life from my infancy hath been clear otherwise In the beginning of the late unhappy times the late King of happy and glorious memory did me the honour to make me a Peer and thinking that my presence might rather prejudice him than serve him my Wife and I settled at Antwerp when the War begun where I might have lived though obscurely yet safely but I was not satisfied in my Conscience to see my King in so much disorder and I not endeavour to serve him what I could to free him from his troubles And I did come into England and served his Majesty faithfully and loyally as long as he lived And some of your Lordships here know whether I did not wait upon the now King in his Exile from which he was happily restored which shews I had no ill intention then My Lords I hope this I have said does shew that my life hath given no countenance to this Accusation but clear contrary to what these I hope I may call them so and doubt not to prove them so perjured Villains say against me My Lords After I had this misfortune to be thus accused about a month or six weeks after your Lordships were pleased to send two Members of this honourable Body to me I do not see them at present here to examine me about the Plot they were my Lord of Bridgwater and my Lord of Essex if they be here I appeal to them what I did say These two after they had examined me told me they did believe and could almost assure me That if I would confess my Fault and let them know the particulars of it your Lordships would intercede with the King for my Pardon but I then as I ought asserted my own Innocency Not long after the King out of his Grace and Goodness to me sent six of the Council to the Tower to offer me That though I was never so guilty yet if I would confess I should have my Pardon I did then consider with my self I could not imagine what ground there was to believe your Lordships could have Evidence of what there was not to bring me in Guilty and thereupon I was so far from being able to make a Discovery that I could not invent any thing that might save my life if I would My Lords I was seven days in the Countrey after I heard of the Plot if I had known my self guilty I should surely have run away As I came to London when I was at Lichfield there met me two of my Lords They told me and so did a Gentleman of the House of Commons how much there was in the Plot which if I had had an hand in it would certainly make me fly for it I have ever heard when a man is accused or suspected of a Crime Flight is a great sign of Guilt and that it is often asked of the Jury though there be no certain positive Evidence of the Fact Whether a man fled or no As that is a sign of Guilt so Remaining is a sign of Innocency If then after Notice I come to Town and suffer my self to be taken if after Imprisonment and Accusation I refuse my Pardon and yet had been Guilty I ought to die for my Folly as well as my Crime My Lords 't is a great Offence to commit Treason and a great Addition to continue obstinate when upon Acknowledgment a man can save his life nay my Lords if I should have refused these Offers and yet known my self Guilty I had at the same time been guilty of one of the greatest Sins in the world as being the cause of my own Death And as I hold next to Treason Murder the greatest sin so I hold of all Murders Self-murder to be the greatest nay I do not think any man living can pardon that Sin of Murder And I do profess to your Lordships in the presence of Almighty God that if I could immediately by the Death of this impudent Fellow Dugdale who hath done me so much wrong make my self the greatest man in the world that is or ever was I profess before God I would not I cannot say my Charity is so great but that I should be glad to see him suffer those Punishments the Law can inflict upon him for his Crimes but his Death I would not have
Blood is so great a Crime and I know every man is careful of giving his Voice in the Case of Blood I should be very cautious my self and if I were a Judge I would rather save twenty Guilty than condemn one Innocent I bless God I have not the least desire of the Death of any man and would not for all the world have the innocent Blood of all the word lye upon me I beg your Lordships pardon that I have troubled you thus long I shall now as well as I can apply my self to my particular Defence I do my Lords before I can go on to it desire I may have such Depositions as have been taken against me and the liberty to look on your Journal Book when I have occasion I do particularly desire the Depositions of Oats upon which I was committed by my Lord Chief Justice the two Depositions of Stephen Dugdale taken at Stafford before two Justices of the Peace Mr. Lane and Mr. Vernon I desire the Depositions taken before I think it was Mr. Warcup and Sir William Poultney or some other two Justices which was made by Turbervile and then I shall compare their Testimonies together And I hope shall give you a clear account that they are perjured persons How without these to go on to my just Defence I cannot well tell Lord High Steward What do you say to it Gentlemen you hear what my Lord prays Sir Franc. Winnington The Witnesse are here and have been heard viva voce As we cannot use any of the Depositions of which he speaks so no more can they be used by him Lord High Steward If I understand my Lord aright this is the thing he desires says he You have brought Witnesses against me viva voce they have been examined here and they have been examined elsewhere and their Depositions are upon Record I desire to confront what they have said here with what they have said contrary in other places Mr. Serj. Maynard If there be any thing expressed by my Lord wherein they have contradicted themselves and produce that Deposition he may do that but to desire to have all the Depositions that have been made by our Witnesses is a strange request When there is occasion to use them upon any particular point he may produce them if he can Lord High Steward Can you object why my Lord should not have Copies of any thing that is upon the Journal and Depositions that are sworn before a Magistrate which may be of use to him Sir William Jones My Lords We do not object against it but my Lords I think it is out of time of to desire it What was sworn and is entred in your Lordships Journal was sworn above two years since My Lord or any man else might repair to them they are matters of Record and for ought we know were never denyed to any especially if they desired it in the House but after two years time and after three weeks time given to prepare for this Tryal when my Lord could not but know what Witnesses would be examined before your Lordships for him to come now and desire such and such Depositions may be produced which if by Law he might be allowed to do he might have done before is to no other purpose under favour but to gain time and to cause our Evidence to be forgotten And therefore we must humbly pray it may not be admitted My Lords I think it is an unusual thing My Lords the Judges are neer your Lordships I suppose they will inform your Lordships If a man be tryed at the Assizes for him to desire a Coppy of the Informations remaining in Court by which he may except against the Witnesses is what the Court does not use to grant But if your Lordships proceedings vary from the common proceedings of other Courts then I resort to what I said before Whether your Lordships will think this a proper time when he might have had it in the Parliament that was first Dissolved and then in the Parliament that was last Dissolved Now to desire those Copies at this time is to put off the Cause for that which perhaps he cannot be furnished with in a day or two Sir Fr. VVin. I would add but one word if your Lordships please to give me leave My Lords you have the Learned Judges near you who will inform you Whether ever when a man was accused of a Capital Offence and the Evidence against him had been fully heard by the Court and by himself he was admitted to require from the Prosecutors the Copies of Examinations formerly taken before other Persons Does my Lord intend to have time to peruse those Examinations and to have the Copies of them that he may consult in private with his Counsel to find out Exceptions and with his Witnesses to make them good My Lords I must say that in my short Experience and I have attended a considerable time upon the greatest Court for Trial of Offenders I never heard such a thing asked by a Prisoner either at the Bar of the Kings Bench or at the Assizes I speak with all the tenderness imaginable because we are in a matter of Blood and God-forbid but the Lord at the Bar should have true and equal Justice done him But if I take my Lord right this seems but an Artifice to delay the Trial of which it is our duty to be very cautious Indeed I have seen the Judges upon trial of a Criminal call for the Depositions or Informations from the Clerk or the Justice of the Peace who took them and caused them to be read but for a Prisoner to call for Examinations at the Bar from the Prosecutors Et ex Debita Justitia to demand them is a thing which as it never has been so I think will not be admitted at this time especially when we are now almost at the end of the Cause and with all Modesty and Submission to your Lordships I look upon it as a very strange and unreasonable Demand L. H. Steward My Lord Stafford What is the reason your Lordship had not all this while Copies of the Journal which is that you now ask L. Stafford I shall not undertake that I am able to give your Lordships a reason for it because I think wherein I have been mistaken as to point of Time your Lordships will not tie me up to that But this Gentleman that spoke last is not acquainted with me and does not know me for I have no desire to go back or to put off this Trial But if it cannot be done to Day I am as guilty to Morrow as I am to Day and I desire no more than what he says hath been done in the like Cases I do desire my Lord the Informations and Depositions of Dugdale Oates and Turbervile may be produced and read and I will make Observations upon them in my Defence I desire those Affidavits may be brought L. H. Stew. Affidavits taken When and where
L. Stafford Of Dr. Oats that was read in your Lordships House I heard it L. H. Stew. Let us understand your Lordships demands that when my Lords are withdrawn I may know what Questions to put to them and acquaint them with your desires The one is the Journal of the Lords House which is always before their Lordships and you might have had Copies long since The next thing you ask is an Affidavit of Dugdale if this Affidavit is entred into the Journal that supplies your Demands if it be not entred there where shall we find it L. Stafford I do not know L. H. Stew. Does your Lordship think all this matter must stay till we can find a loose Affidavit that we know not where 't is filed L. Stafford I know it was before the Council and I believe my Accusers have it I desire the Gentlemen of the House of Commons may produce it Sir John Trevor I have seen none nor have none L. Stafford The one was taken the 24. of December this time two year and the other the 29. L. H. Stew. My Lord will your Lordship give me leave to tell you you ought to be provided with some particular exception and not to make your demand in general If your Lordship will say Dugdale did swear such and such things which are contrary to what he now affirms we know what to make of it but to hunt after an Affidavit that we know not where to find to pick something out of it that I do not understand L. Stafford I appeal to my Lord of Essex and my Lord Bridgewater whether they did not examine me the first time upon one or two Affidavits of Dugdale L. H. Stew. Suppose it be not to be found my Lord L. Stafford Then I must have patience and submit L. H. Stew. Can you tell wherein he swore quite blank contrary to what he swears now L. Stafford My Lord I conceive it was never denied before but your Lordships may do what you please L. H. Stew. Well my Lord let us go on to the next The Affidavits of Dugdale if they be entred on the Journal may be ready if not thenâ— shall acquaint their Lordships and they will direct what is fit in the case L. Stafford Then there is the Affidavit of Oats before my Lord Chief Justice upon which I was committed the next day which was Friday it was read in your Lordships House L. H. Stew. I believe that is entred upon the Journal and so will be ready to be used L. Staff I do hope to make it evidently appear thereby that he is forsworn I desire two Affidavits more that were taken before the Justices of the Peace of Middlesex who examined Mr. Turbervile twice L. H. Stew. What Justice of the Peace L. Staff Mr. Warcupp Sir William Poultney and Sir Thomas Stringer I desire I may not be misunderstood I do not desire to have them to instruct my Counsel or advise with them upon them but I cannot make my Defence without them L. H. Stew. Those are voluntary extrajudicial Affidavits that no body is bound to keep L. Staff They were spoken of in the Votes of the House of Commons L. H. Steward What say you Gentlemen to it Sir Fran. Winn. My Lords because my Lord at the Bar is pleased to insinuate as if we knew where those Affidavits are which he seems to desire and because your Lordship was pleased to say that the Commons in Parliament are the Grand-Jury of the Kingdom I desire to say one thing That certainly it will not be required from us to produce and publish the several Facts and Circumstances that induced us to impeach him if it shall be demanded by the Prisoner at the Bar. L. H. Steward I wish you would answer the Question and not argue upon it whether those Affidavits of Turbervile may not be produced for 't is my Lords Exception against your Witnesses that he swears several ways and by those Affidavits of Turbervile he intends to disprove him in what he hath said to day Sir Fr. Win. My Lords the House of Commons never administer an Oath and therefore it is not to be said to us but my Lord Stafford must go to the particular Offices where they are to be found L. H. Stew. I do not ask you where my Lord should find them but whether if they can be found you can object any thing why they should not be produced and read Mr. Serj. Maynard When they are produced we will give an Answer L. Stafford My Lords I am informed this is the substance of the Affidavit That Turbervile did swear before two Justices of the Peace whether they be of the House of Commons or no I cann't tell that he spoke with me at Doway and in Paris in the years 73. and 77. and now he says 72. and 75. I am informed my Lords and I appeal to the House of Commons they are all Persons of Honour and Worth if my Information be mistaken I beg their Pardon and yours for 't whether he did not mend it after he had sworn it L. H. Stew. Are these all you do demand L. Stafford Yes my Lords Whether this was true or no I don't know â— is what I have been told I appeal to the House of Commons who are all worthy persons I do not believe I have an Enemy among them they know whether I speak true or no. L. H. Stew. When will your Lordship be ready to make your Defence L. Stafford As soon as ever I have them I will not stay a minute a moment an instant I desire not to shew my Counsel nor any one for my Tryal is a thing that I have long desired Therefore I would not be mistaken as if I would put off the Cause I am innocent and shall be so while I live and hope I shall make it appear so I beg if this be a matter of Law whether I may have them or not that my Counsel be heard to it L. H. Stew. This is a matter of Fact L. Stafford I insist upon it as things without which I cannot make my Defence I am innocent and I suppose not one of the House of Commons nor one of your Lordships will debar me of that by which I may make my Innocency appear Lord High Steward You cannot know my Lords pleasure till they are withdrawn Sir William Jones Before your Lordships withdraw I hope you will please to hear us a few words which we think may be for the Service of this Court. My Lords what Evidence is before your Lordships 't is in your Lordships pleasure what of that you shall please to communicate to my Lord Stafford but for this Evidence he speaks of as remaining in our hands and which he takes upon himself to appeal to us for admits of another consideration My Lords if we were conscious of any thing in these Affidavits that were for my Lords Advantage and knew where they were we would
redily produce them but for my self I must answer and I think my Companions will say so too that we do not know where these Affidavits are nor of any Variation in those Affidavits from what is now sworn but whatever they were they were taken for the Information of the House of Commons who are the Prosecutors in this Cause and who are no Judges Now if my Lord will bring any Witness that will say this Witness of ours did before a Justice of Peaee depose so and so and says the contrary now there might be then just reasons to look after these Affidavits and to have them produced but upon a bare imagination that there is a Variance where in truth there is none and the Truth may otherwise be known to desire that these Affidavits that never were before you should be produced whether such a Suggestion is to be admitted I humbly submit it to your Lordships Consideration L. Stafford My Lords if these Gentlemen that are the Managers for the House of Commons will aver to your Lordships that there is no Variation in them I will submit to them and be quiet if they will say it was not debated in the House whether he should amend or no. L. H. Stew. Look you he puts it upon you so far Gentlemen that if you will take it upon you to aver that there is no Variation between those Affidavits upon which you grounded your Impeachment and the Evidence you have given upon the Trial of your Impeachment he will not give you the trouble L. Stafford I beseech you let me say one word my Lords I have been thus long a Prisoner I was as far from being proceeded against now as any of the rest of the Lords in the Tower till Turbervile came in with his Discovery and I believe I am now called the sooner which I am glad of and I give the Gentlemen thanks for it upon the Affidavit of Turbervile I desire that Affidavit and though it be true the House of Commons give no Oath yet they appointed two Members of the House that were Justices of the Peace of Middlesex to take it upon Oath and he desired the next day to amend it and I put my self upon them whether this be not true L. H. Stew. What say you Sir to it Sir W. Jones My Lord I cannot answer because I don't hear L. Stafford My Lord I say this I do observe that Mr. Turbervile whose face I never saw in my life that I know of till to day nor never spoke a word to him and I shall prove that no Servant that ever I had see him did depose for the purpose to day that he was in the Years 73. and 76. in such and such places and that he did speak with me at Doway and Paris and to Morrow recollecting his Notes he found he was mistaken in his Affidavit that he had made before and desired to mend it and brought it to the Years 72. and 75. there was some Debate in the House about it whether they should permit him to mend it I appeal to all the Gentlemen whether it were not so L. H. Stew. Your labour is to have two Affidavits that you do presume will do your business in order to the finding out a variety of time of his being at Doway or at Paris That which does press your Lordship we know in Turbervile's Evidence is That at Paris in the Room below of your Lodging you encouraged him to kill the King and you were to have met him at Diep to know his mind but you came not and he went away if you have it in the Affidavit quite contrary to this you say somewhat L. Staff My Lords I beseech you it presses me and every man in England not to be run down by a Fellow that forswears himself for him to swear one thing to day and another thing to morrow is Perjury L. H. Stew. What say you to it Gentlemen Sir W. Jones What was done in the House of Commons it does not become any of us that are Members to disclose But I have heard and will admit it that in the Depositions the Witness made before a Justice of Peace there was a year put down which he going home and upon sight of Letters and Papers found it to be mistaken he comes the next day and desires to alter it if this be for my Lords Service we shall grant it Mr. Serj. Maynard 'T is on or about too L. H. Stew. What say you my Lord now L. Staff I do say my Lord I am informed by what I have heard cursorily for I have not seen one of the House of Commons before the day of my Tryal that though in his second Deposition he named the years 72. and 75. yet I can prove him perjured as to what he hath sworn here to day L. H. Stew. Since 't is insisted upon Gentlemen that there is a Variety in the last Deposition from what he swore at first what can you say why he should not have the avail of his Exception Sir Will. Jones My Lords whether your Lordships will think fit to consider by what ways and means the House of Commons informed themselves in order to Impeachments I submit to you and for those things that still remain in the hands of the Commons I suppose you will be pleased to consider how you can send for them to inform you We would not be mistaken in the matter let not any one that hears us think that we are conscious there is the least Variation nay we are confident if the thing were produced it would turn to my Lords prejudice but what is done in this Case may be a President for the future and therefore we cannot without resorting to the House consent to deliver any thing the House took for their Information Therefore if your Lordships stand upon it and incline to have it done we must resort to the House to ask their leave whether we shall do it or no. L. H. Stew. I cannot tell what my Lords will incline to do but I desire when you are gone back you will consider how far it will make the matter easie to my Lord. Sir Will. Jones My Lords we can give no Answer to that till we have attended our House Mr. Serj. Maynard I desire your Lordships to consider what a piece of cunning he hath put upon both Houses to pass by his villifying our Witnesses which I may say was not comely But if he makes any Question it must be put to the Houses upon supposition to be a Question and so he would bring things only to this issue to put off the Cause for to day He ought to put that which might probably be something of a Question Let him instance in particulars and make out his Evidence not seign things to put off the Cause for ought I see 't is to no other end and 't is a Jesuitical trick I think L. Stafford I feign nothing I have
been told this that I speak here and I desire it may be proved Lord High Steward If you are bound up so that you cannot consent I can t help it Mr. Serj. Maynard Let him put the Fact my Lords and not suppose and imagine Things and then raife Questions L. H. Stew. It is usual in these Cases for the Gentlemen of the House of Commons to stay till the Lords are withdrawn and expect their Lordships Resolution perhaps they may so order it that you need not go back Sir Will. Jones I desire before your Lordships withdraw that it may be taken notice of by your Lordships that for the matter of the variation of the year we do admit it My Lord is not pleased to mention any other particular matter of the Affidavit but only says in general that it is contrary to what he says to day if my Lord would tell us wherein perhaps we should admit it or answer it or take it into further consideration but to make so general an Allegation and give your Lordships no particular account we submit whether such a suggestion ought to be regarded Lord High Steward Is there any further variation besides the variation of the year L. Staff I cannot say there is my Lord I do not know it but I do really believe in my Conscience there is from what I have heard but however I insist upon it and demand your Judgment Sir Fr. Win. My Lords I humbly desire one word as to the Objection that hath been made that he hath prayed your Lordships to grant him the sight of such and such Papers The nature of this Cause my Lords we know is such that there was never the like number of Papers known as to the General Plot and my Lord that is the Prisoner at the Bar may as well demand to morrow such a particular Paper and the next day another that he hath heard of in the General Plot and where will the end of this be So that if the thing be granted upon the variation of the time that it was immediately rectifyed and he cannot produce any grounds that may satisfie your Lordships why he should have that Paper you may as well suffer him to demand any other Paper after and so never end the Cause L. H. Stew. Your Lordship hath been told and you shall find it that you shall have as fair and equal an Hearing as is possible and nothing shall be denied you that is just and reasonable to safe your Life or make your Defence But pray my Lord for so much as is upon the Journal which you may resort unto you may easily know what answer my Lords will give to that but for this other thing if it be only the variety you alledge of the Time and the Year and you do desire it to look for other Exceptions and you pray the help of the Lords to see such a Paper that you might make inquiry after other varieties Do you think they are to help you to find out Exceptions to the Witnesses L. Stafford I do not desire their Lordships to help me to find out Exceptions but I have told your Lordships of one Exception to the Affidavit which these Gentlemen acknowledge to be true and the other Affidavit is that he Swears I spoke to him at Doway in the year 72 or 73 which I can disprove and then I say he Swearing several things false he is no credible Witness L. H. Stew. 'T is admitted to your Lordship that he did mistake the time L. Stafford It is admitted that he said he spoke to me at Doway L. H. Stew. How very an easie matter were it to expedite this Process by allowing the Prisoner his demand in this particular Sir Will. Jones I never saw it and a great many of the Managers say they never saw it L. Stafford These Gentlemen say I did it to put off the Cause I am far from it for though I am in a condition very unfit to manage my Defence faint and weak with speaking so long and hardly able to speak any more yet I desire to finish this night and if I see it now it will be enough I shall not desire to have a Copy to advise with my Counsel or any body else L. H. Stew. Pray Gentlemen of the House of Commons will you observe my Lord as weary as he is would make an end of the matter presently if you would but send for the Affidavit Mr. Foley My Lords it is not in our hands here if the House of Commons will order it it may be done we cannot order it of our selves Mr. Powle My Lords this is a Paper that does properly belong to the House and I do think that none of us here that are Managers for this Trial will undertake it shall be delivered without resorting to the House for their Opinion for though I do verily beleive and am fully persuaded that what this Noble Lord at the Bar does object will not appear to be so For I think there is not any thing of my Lord Staffora's speaking with this Witness at Doway mentioned therein yet how far the Presidents of this may reach in other Cases I think is worthy the Consideration of the House And we cannot presume to offer any thing in it to your Lordships until you be pleased to give us leave to go and resort thither Then the Lords withdrew and after an Hours and an Halfs space returned and Proclamation was made for Silence L. H. Steward My Lord Viscount Safford my Lords have considered of the Demands you made and my Lords upon the Debate of the Reasons of your Demands are come to this Resolution Your Lordship did demand in the first place that you might have a sight of the Journal and have the Papers lodged in the House of Peers My Lords take notice that this Demand which your Lordship now makes is a Demand that was granted you long ago about two years since you have an Order entred upon the Books that your Lordship should have Copies of every thing in that House and if your Lordship have not taken out Copies and if any thing is missing to your Lordship that is yet there extant 't is your Lordships fault However my Lords will command their Journals to be brought hither that your Lordship may make that use of them that may be of most profit to you For the other Demand touching the Affidavit supposed to be taken from Turbervile by the Justices of the Peace that my Lords upon Consideration had do find that there is no Obligation at all upon them as a Court to concern themselves in that Matter And therefore my Lords have made no Order in that Point but your Lordship must come provided as well as you can and the Court can do no more to help you in it For the rest my Lords did take notice that your Lordship said before they were withdrawn That you found your self very Faint and Weary and
that you were much spent in Discourse and Tired with what already you have done My Lords are extreamly willing to give your Lordship all the Favour and Accommodation possible for the Recollecting your self therefore my Lords will not now put you upon it to go on to make your Defence but will give you time till to Morrow L. Stafford I humbly give your Lordships thanks for your kindness and Favour to me but here I profess and call Almighty God to witness rather than I would have it thought I am willing to put it off I would have sunk down Dead at the Bar. But my Lords there was another Demand that I made Your Lordships say I shall have Copies of all the Journals and that you cannot help me to the Affidavit of Turbervile I submit to it without saying one word more but I desire that I may have brought hither to Morrow the Journals and other Papers in the Lords House but I desire also the two Affidavits of Dugdale taken the one the 24. the other the 29. of December following which Depositions were taken before Mr. Lane and Mr. Vernon in Stafford Town when Dugdale was in Prison L. H. Stew. Look you my Lord This is all under the same Rule What Evidence soever there is before the Court of Peers that you shall have whatsoever Evidence is not in that Court you ought to come provided of the Court is not to stay nor to help you to Evidence L. Staff My Lord I beg your pardon Dugdale made an Affidavit then and says the clean contrary now I desire nothing but Justice and I am sure I shall have all Justice from your Lordships L. H. Stew. Produce it and alledge what you will for your self it shall be heard L. Staff How then shall I be able to make my Defence if I have not those Papers which I humbly concieve by the Law ought to be brought These Gentlemen of the House of Commons say That I could not have Turbervile's Affidavit because it was in the House and they could not give it without consent of the House but this was examined before a Justice of Peace and returned to the Council Sure I shall have that I was examined by my Lord of Essex and my Lord of Bridgewater upon that Affidavit twice I think therefore that is material and necessary and I know your Lordships would not have me come to defend my self without Weapons L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford I do beseech your Lordship to be a little better informed in your own Business You have leave to make use of the Journal and all Papers that are entred there the Clerks say Dugdale's Oath is entred there L. Stafford Is the 24. of December there Clerk It is there L. H. Stew. Pray my Lord do not put the Court upon Interrogatories but come provided as well as you can L. Stafford If it be entred on the Journal Book I desire not the Original I am very well satisfied L. H. Stew. Will you be ready to go on to morrow my Lord L. Stafford I will withall my heart L. H. Stew. 'T is too late Gentlemen to go on to Night we must Adjourn till to Morrow Lord Stafford My Lords I had so much to write last Night that I had very little sleep I desire I may not come till Ten. L. H. Stew. My Lord I am not able to hear you I take as much pains to come near you as I can L. Stafford I had a great deal to write last Night I say and I want some sleep I desire I may not come till Ten. L. H. Stew. Will you be ready by Ten a Clock to Morrow L. Stafford I will be ready by Ten. L. H. Stew. I will move my Lords when they are withdrawn to Adjourn till Ten to Morrow But my Lord Stafford I do not know how your Lordship is provided or how you look after your own Business If you have not had Copies of the Journal all this while 't is you are in the fault A great deal of it is in Print you may send your Solicitor to the Clerk of the Parliament and take Copies of what you have need of I give you notice of it that if you come unprovided you may know it is your own fault L. Stafford I do acknowledge I have Copies of the Journal Book I think of all but I do not find any thing of Dugdale's second Deposition there L. H. Stew. Here is that of the 24. of December that you ask after send your Solicitor and then you shall have a Copy out of the Journal of it L. Stafford I assure your Lordship I will be ready to morrow if I can get those Copies Lord High Steward My Lords will give you as much Ease and all the Accommodations that are fit L. Stafford Then to morrow I will be ready by Ten a Clock if your Lordships please only I would desire your Lordships to take notice that these Gentlemen of the House of Commons do acknowledge that Turbervile swore one day to one year and the next day to another L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford you say you can be ready to morâ—ow at Ten a Clock Are you sure you can be ready then L. Stafford I say my Lords this I shall not be so ready as I shall be next day but I assure your Lordships I will rather sink down in the place where I am if you think fit than put off the Tryal L. H. Stew. Look you Gentlemen of the House of Commons in a Case of this consequence and of this Vital Importance to a Man as this is where is the inconvenience if there should be a days respite and the Court should Adjourn till Friday if my Lords be moved in it I make no direction but what inconvenience will be in it Will it not be every way as well Sir Will. Jones My Lords your Lordships does not expect from us to give our consent to put off the Tryal L. H. Stew. I ask only what inconvenience it is Sir Will. Jones Your Lordships are the Judges and will do as you find it reasonable but this I say it is very unusual and scarce to be Presidented that when the Prosecutors have given an Evidence the Prisoner should have time a further considerable time to give his Answer to it the Prisoner knows before hand the general Scope and Drift of the Evidence therefore for him to have time till to morrow is a favour but to have more than that even a whole day to intervene is very unusual L. H. Stew. If that be all and the matter depend upon what is usual I do venture with my Lords leave to inform you that my Lord of Strafford had two days time after the Prosecution to give his Answer to what was said against him Sir William Jones That was an Evidence upon Twenty Eight Articles this but upon Two Heads and that was after a long Examination of many days L. Stafford My Lords
I had prepared my self for my Tryal as well as I could and had written down a few things that I intended to say and I profess before God as I am a Man and as I am a Christian of all I intended to say I have in a manner made use of very few words but as to what I had to say upon the Evidence I was forced to lay all aside because I wanted these Papers I have not eaten to day and being forced to lay aside all that I had written I shall need a whole day to write however I submit my self to your Lordships in that matter Lord High Steward My Lord if it be equal to your Lordship and your Lordship will be as ready to morrow as another day this Court will be more ready L. Stafford I assure your Lordships if your Lordships do give me another day I will not debate with my Counsel any one thing upon the Papers I have asked Lord High Steward Pray my Lord will you be pleased to make your demand to my Lords who are your Judges by what time you will be content to be foreclosed Lord Stafford My Lords if you will give me till Friday I shall be ready to give my Evidence and I will bring Witnesses sufficient I hope to prove my Innocency Sir Will. Jones My Lords we do not presume at all to offer our consent to what time the Court shall be Adjourned L. H. Stew. No we do not ask your Consent Sir Will. Jones And I hope your Lordships will not ask the Prisoners consent nor do it by his direction L. H. Stew. De morte hominis non est cunctatio longa Sir Will. Jones But we must desire your Lordships as we are entrusted by the House of Commons to Manage this Tryal to take notice that as we do not expect your Lordships should take the Measures from our Desires much less do we expect you should do it at the only instance of the Prisoner 'T is a great advantage to this Lord to choose his own time when he will please to answer our Evidence We do know very well that in this Case there have been Attempts to Suborn Witnesses and that we shall prove in due time and Attempts to destroy Witnesses too So that there hath been too much time lost already and I think to morrow is a very convenient time for him to make his Answer And I must observe to your Lordships that the Prisoner hath gained his end of not making his Answer this day by raising an Objection which in my Thoughts carried no great weight in it though when it was made your Lordships were pleased to Adjourn upon it But seeing he hath got his Point of deferring the making Answer till to morrow there can be no reason he should gain a further day since the Depositions may be ready by to morrow as well as by the next day And therefore we desire your Lordships will be pleased to go on in the Tryal to morrow L. H. Stew. You shall know their Lordships pleasure when they are withdrawn Is it your Lordships pleasure that we should Adjourn Lords Ay Ay. L. H. Stew. This House is Adjourned into the Parliament Chamber So the Lords withdrew in their Order and the Commons went back to their House and Mr. Speaker resumed the Chair A Message was sent from the Lords by Sir Timothy Baldwin and Sir Samuel Clark Mr. Speaker The Lords have sent us to acquaint this House that they have ordered the Prisoner William Viscount Stafford to be brought to the Bar in Westminster-Hall to morrow morning at Ten of the Clock And then the Commons Adjourned to Eight of the Clock next morning The Third Day Thursday December 2. 1680. AT the Hour of Ten in the Morning the Lords Adjourned into Westminster-Hall and returned in their former Order into the Court there erected and Mr. Speaker having left the Chair the Commons were seated as before The Court being sat Proclamation for Silence was made and the Lieutenant of the Tower commanded to bring his Prisoner to the Bar which being done the Lord High Steward spake to him as followeth L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford this is the time appointed to hear what your Lordship hath to say in your Defence and to call your Witnesses Sir Will. Jones My Lords yesterday my Lord Viscount Stafford was pleased to make mention of an Affidavit of Mr. Turbervile taken before two Justices of the Peace wherein he was pleased to say there was some Amendment made and so indeed we did then acknowledg there was But he had a desire to see it notwithstanding our acknowledgment because he was informed that that which Turbervile swore then differed from what Turbervile swore yesterday My Lords at that time we had not the Affidavit nor was it proper for us to produce it for indeed it remained in the Justice of Peace's Hands that took it but now that his Lordship may have full satisfaction and not only his Lordship but also all that are present at this Tryal I do inform his Lordship that the Affidavit is in the hands of a Member of the House of Commons Sir Will. Poulteney by name and if his Lordship please he may have it produceed and make what use he can of it L. H. Stew. 'T is extream Honourably and Worthily done of the House of Commons and my Lord hath no manner of Exception left him L. Stafford My Lords if I shall have occasion to use it I shall call for it but I would first say something to your Lordships My Lords I first give your Lordships thanks for granting me the liberty to come so late to Day I have had a little sleep upon it Your Lordships heard yesterday when you had Dr. Oats at the Bar the first thing that he said as I remember was to desire you would be pleased to leave him to his own method I beg of your Lordships the same favour that I may begin with the one or the other Witnesses or with matter of Law as I please L. H. Steward God forbid but you should take your own Method in your Defence L. Stafford In order to which I desire first Mr. Turbervile may come to the Bar. L. H. Stew. Do you call Turbervile my Lord L. Stafford Yes my Lord I do L. H. Stew. He is there what say you to him L. Stafford My Lords I will ask him but one Question and I hope I shall have occasion to ask him no more When was the last time that he spoke with me L. H. Stew. Mr. Turbervile I think I hear right I do not know My Lord Stafford asks when was the last time you spoke with his Lordship Mr. Turbervile It was in November 1675. L. Stafford I have very much to say against his Evidence but I hope your Lordships will not think him any Evidence against me or any body else But I desire your Judgment whether I be not within the compass of the time limited
by the Statute Mr. Serjeant Maynard Express your self my Lord for we do not understand you L. Stafford I cannot say more than I do the time which the Statute limits is six months but this is five years I desire the Statute may be read L. H. Stew. What Statute my Lord L. Stafford The Statute of the 13 th of this King L. H. Stew. If your Lordship pleases you shall have it read But your Lordship does not observe you are prosecuted and impeached of High Treason upon the Statute of the 25 th of Edward the 3 d. not upon the Statute of the 13 th of this King made for the Safety of the Kings Person which limits the Prosecution of some Offences to be within six months but the Prosecution for Treason may be at any time L. Staff Does your Lordship say it may be at any time Lord High Steward Yes my Lord. L. Stafford This truly does very much surprise me though I am wholly ignorant in matters of Law My Lords I have ever heard that no man can be prosecuted by that Statute but within so many days in one part of it Thirty Days in another six months and I desire your Lordships that the Statute may be read L. H. Stew. If your Lordship please the Statute shall be read if your Lordship desires the Clause of the Statute of the 13 th of this King which limits the Prosecution to be within six months that shall be read But I conceive your Lordship is not accused upon that Statute Lord Stafford I beseech your Lordships I may know whether I am prosecuted upon the Statute of the 13 th of this King or upon what other Statute L. H. Steward What say the worthy Gentlemen of the House of Commons Is my Lord prosecuted upon the Statute of the 13 th of this King M. Serj. Maynard Not at all my Lord he is not prosecuted upon that Statute but upon the Common Law and the 25 th of Edward the 3 d. which was only Declarative of the Common Law L. Staff This is a point of Law Sir Will. Jones What is the point of Law L. Staff Whether I can be prosecuted after so many days L. H. Steward The Law is very clear If you were prosecuted upon the 13 th of this King for any less Offence than Treason you could not be prosesecuted after six months but if you be prosecuted for Treason either upon the 25 th of Edward the 3 d. or 13. Car. 2 d. there is no time limited and God forbid there should L. Stafford I beseech your Lordships Judgment whether there be not a Statute I think 't is in the Reign of Edward the 6 th that sets the time after which no man shall be prosecuted for any thing of Treason I desire a quarter of an hours time to look into the Statute L. H. Stew. What say you Gentlemen L. Stafford Pray my Lord let me read the Statute of Edward the 6 th Mr. Serj. Maynard We know not of any such Statute L. Stafford I will not say there is but I will say I cannot read if there be not L. H. Stew. Pray Gentlemen of the House of Commons my Lord does suppose he hath some kind of Objection in Law to make which he cannot make out of himself will it be amiss to let his Counsel make and propose the Question for him Sir Will. Jones My Lords we rather would have my Lord propose the Objection for your Lordships know till a matter of Law is proposed he cannot be admitted to have Counsel If he desires time to recollect himself about the Objection we can't oppose it But we desire that he may propose the Objection and after if it be any doubt in matter of Law your Lordships will assign him Counsel to be heard to speak to it Sir Franc. Winn. This would be a way for a Prisoner to have the Advantage of Counsel when they ought not to be allowed for 't is but to say he hath some doubt which he cannot propose himself and so let in his Counsel to make Objections for him If any Question of Law do arise and that Question is stated you will allow the Prisoner Counsel to argue it but at this rate he may make the like pretences in every part of his Defence and so obtain that Counsel shall manage his whole Defence for him L. H. Stew. I suppose my Lord does intend an Objection as to the time of the Prosecution but he does not know how to make it He supposes he is prosecuted after the six months which he thinks is the time limited for the Prosecution But I pray my Lord Stafford will your Lordship take time to recollect your self and make an Objection fit for Counsel to be heard upon and you shall have it L. Staff I beseech you I may have the Statute-Book with me for I have none my self my Lord. Sir Will. Jones With all our hearts we do not oppose it Then my Lord withdrew into the Room provided for him and within a quarter of an hour returned L. H. Stew. Say my Lord. L. Stafford My Lords I do confess I have been very much mistaken ever since I was first committed to the Tower For I did conceive that they would have proceeded as I thought I was impeached upon the Statute of the 13 th of this King I humbly desire your Lordships Judgment whether I ought or no to be prosecuted upon that Statute L. H. Stew. The Gentlemen have told you already They prosecute you upon the Statute of 25 th of Edward the 3 d. and upon the Common Law L. Staff And they lay aside that Statute L. H. Stew. What Statute L. Staff The 13 th of this King L. H. Stew. What say you Gentlemen once more Sir Fr. Winn. My Lords we have declared already to his Lordship and if my Lord had looked well upon the Articles of Impeachment he could not have put that Question but would have found himself impeached for Treason at the Common Law declared by the 25 th of Edward the 3 d. L. Staff So then they lay that aside of the 13 th of this King Mr. Serj. Maynard We do not mention any Statute but we mention the Crime and that Crime is against the Common Law declared by the Statute to wit The attempting the King's Death and the Subversion of the Government L. Stafford My Lords There is no doubt but the attempting the King's Death is a great and hainous Crime but my Lords I do not find that in the Impeachment there is any Overt Act at all And whether I shall answer to a Treason not proved by any Overt Act sworn by two Witnesses I submit to your Lordships But my Lords because your Lordships and the House of Commons may not think that I propose these things out of a desire of delay if your Lordships please it may be saved to me with all other points of Law I will go on to my proofs L. H. Stew. Yes
all these things shall be saved to you pray let us hear your Evidence L. Staff Since your Lordships hath granted me that be pleased to give me leave to go to my Evidence and I begin with Stephen Dugdale L. H. Stew. Set up Dugdale L. Staff Will your Lordships please I may have Pen Ink and Paper L. H. Stew. By all means my Lord. Which was given him L. Staff May it please your Lordships Stephen Dugdale said if I understand him aright and I ask him again that he knew something of the Plot 15 or 16 years ago L. H. Stew. What say you Mr. Dugdale you hear the Question Did not you say you knew of the Plot 15 or 16 years ago Mr. Dugdale I did say it and did explain my meaning in it I did say there was among us such a preparation to be made against the King died of Arms and Money that neither should be wanting L. Staff I beseech your Lordship to ask what proportion of Arms was to be provided L. H. Stew. What proportion of Arms was to be provided Mr. Dugdale I never heard it nominated how many absolutely I have heard of some Numbers I heard of late of 30000. that were to be raised beyond Sea what the whole number in England was I have forgot but I think I have heard Mr. Gavan and some of the Priests say That if there was occasion they should have at least 200000 to assist them that was of Men and I suppose they had Arms as well as Men. L. Stafford My Lords If this were true which he says Mr. Gavan said that they were 200000 I desire to know what Men he ment what Religion they must be of Lord High Stew. What Religion were they of that were to come in and help Mr. Dugdale He did not name them at that time but I understood them and so I apprehend the Company would that they were Roman Catholicks L. Stafford 'T is a strange thing that there should be 200000 Catholicks raised when there are not 20â—00 in England that can bear Arms. L. H. Stew. Good my Lord They might come from beyond sea and so they might be so many Roman Catholicks though there were not so many in England Mr. Serj. Maynard And he says not they were Roman Catholicks but he heard so Mr. Treby There might be so many Roman Catholicks and such as should be with them L. Staff Did he hear 15 or 16 Years that I was one to be among them L. H. Stew. Answer that Question Did you hear then that my Lord Stafford was to be one among them Mr. Dugdale I cannot remember it that I did my Lord. L. Stafford Then my Lords I make this use of it He tells you of a Plot 16 Years ago that 200000 Men in Arms were ready against the King's death Mr. Dugdale I did not say so my Lords I desire I may be understood aright L. Stafford You say you heard so Mr. Dugdale I speak as to the number of Men what I heard of late at the Consults and Meetings within these two Years L. Stafford But I speak of 16 Years ago what Number of Men was there to be raised Mr. Dugdale My Lords it was a general word that was amongst us That we must be provided against that time against the Death of the King but no Number at all L. Stafford This my Lords under favour I conceive does not concern me He tells you there was such a thing it might be so or it might not be so I am not concerned in it then 't is out of Doors as to what concerns me I conceive otherwise if the Gentlemen conceive otherwise they will say so Then my Lords the next thing is How long ago it is since I first spake to him about this Plot and I beseech your Lordships he may mention time and place L. H. Stew. You hear the Question Mr. Dugdale Mr. Dugdale The first time to my best remembrance L. Stafford I beseech you my Lords let us have no remembrance but let him swear positively L. H. Stew. There is no mortal Man can swear otherwise than according to his Remembrance L. Stafford When a mans Life and Honour and all he hath is at stake and indeed in Consequence every man in England is concerned if they swear not positively but still say as I remember who can make a Defence L. H. Stew. Mr. Dugdale Go on and say as near as you can and be as particular as you can upon your Oath Mr. Dugdale That which I can positively affirm is It was about August or September 78. L. Stafford He said yesterday it was in the latter end of August or the beginning of September which are two Months I beseech you what does he mean by the latter end of August how long before the end of August L. H. Stew. How long was it before the last day in August Mr. Dugdale My Lords I will not be positive but it was either in one Month or the other I did not keep a Diary or else I would give your Lordships satisfaction L. Stafford I beseech your Lordships he may positively say whether in August or nor in August or whether in September or not in September Mr. Dugdale I dare not venture to swear that I dare not do it L. Staff Then saving my Exceptions to the incertainty of that afterwards I would ask him what day was it in September that I spoke to him Mr. Dugd. I remember one was either the 20. or 21. of September 78. L. Staff My Lords he says the 20. or 21. does he say that was the first time he spoke with me Sir Jolm Trevor No no. L. Staff I beseech you my Lords they may not answer the Questions but the Witnesses they cry No no. L. H. Stew. My Lord you shall certainly have an answer to all the Questions you will ask L. Staff But when I ask they answer for them I would know whether that is the Course or no. L. H. Stew. Do not disquite your self for any thing that is said about you you shall have a fair hearing L. Stafford But my Lords I cannot but be disquieted when I hear these learned Gentlemen make Answers to my Questions for the Witnesses L. H. Stew. Mr. Dugdale Was the 20. or the 21. of September you speak of the first time you spoke to my Lord Stafford Mr. Dugdale No my Lords it was not L. Stafford Pray my Lords what day was it then I spoke first to him L. H. Stew. What was the day you first spoke to my Lord Mr. Dugdale Truly my Lords I cannot remember so well as to tell you L. H. Stew. Do you remember when my Lord came to Tixal Mr. Dugdale I remember one Sunday in particular but I cannot tell what day of the month it was L. H. Stew. Do you remember my Lord Stafford at Tixal in company of my Lord Aston and Father Evers Mr. Dugdale Yes I do L. H. Stew. Do you remember that any
discourse passed between them Mr. Dugdale Yes I do L. H. Stew. Was that before or after the 21. of September Mr. Dugdale Both before and after L. Stafford My Lords he says there was a Consult at Tixal where such and such were present and the Kings Death determined I ask when was that Mr. Dugdale That was in September I cannot say positively the day but in September or the latter end of August L. Stafford My Lords I must acquiesce and submit to your Lordships to do what you please but if he does not name times nor places how can I make my Defence I desire he may say positively within five days of the one or of the other and my Lords I will put it upon that if he say five days before the end of August or five days in the beginning of September which one would think is space enough that is ten days time L. H. Steward My Lords do observe how far Mr. Dugdale goes and that he is no further positive than he does express himself L. Stafford I beseech your Lordships I press this because it concerns me very much that he may be positive within five days over or under Lord High Steward Can you remember whether it were within five days of the one or of the other Mr. Dugdale Truly my Lords I cannot be positive if I had not made a particular Remark upon that of the 20 or the 21. I could not have remembred that for I did not then intend to reveal the Plot or else I could have given you satisfaction in that Lord High Steward My Lord your Lordship hath an answer to it he cannot speak more positively to it than he does L. Stafford I beseech you then how is it possible I can make my Defence Mr. Dugdale My Lords I kept no Journal if I had I would be more positive L. Stafford He says it was the latter end of August or the beginning of September I desire he will say whether it was the last week in August or the first week in September L. H. Stew. He answers he cannot tell your Lordship must make what advantage you can of that Answer L. Stafford I can make no advantage of it unless he does speak positively to the time My Lords I beseech you I may know what is the end of August and the beginning of September L. H. Stew. My Lord I hear you not L. Stafford If a man says the beginning of June I was at such a place how many days is the beginning and how many days the end of a Month How much time will your Lordships understand the meaning of that to be I am concerned extremely in the point of time for it is that which the whole Business depends upon I mean as to this man L. H. Steward My Lord go on with your Evidence I know not how to give you an Answer what Judgment my Lords will make of it or how much they will understand by it till they are withdrawn they observe how much you Lordship insists upon it and will hear what the worthy Gentlemen of the House of Commons will answer to it L. Stafford My Lords my whole business with this Fellow is concerned in a positive Answer to this Question I give him I think reasonable time to confine himself to L. H. Stew. What say you to the 20. or 21. of September my Lord L. Stafford My Lords I shall give a clear Answer to that anon but I am extremely concerned in this to know whether it was in August or September L. H. Stew. My Lord if your Lordship be concerned never so much at that the Witness can swear no more than he can swear He says about the latter end of August or the beginning of September will your Lordship stand still for that L. Stafford Well then I will go on as well as I can as for the matter of the 20. or 21. of September I beseech your Lordships I may ask Dugdale one Question whether at the Tryal of Sir George Wakeman or the Five Jesuits he did not say the Consult was in August if he deny it I shall prove it Lord High Stew. Mr. Dugdale my Lord asks whether at the Tryal of Wakeman or of the Five Jesuits you did not say it was in August Mr. Dugd. My Lords I did name there was a Consult at Boscobel in August but I do not remember that I did name my Lord Stafford in any Consult in August positively but as I say now the latter end of August or the beginning of September But I did name that there was a Consult at Boscobel in August 78. L. Staff My Lords He did say I was at the Consult in August Mr. Dugd. I did not say my Lord Stafford was there I don't charge him in it and if any such thing was printed I have wrong done me L. Staff Then he says he had nothing to do with me till the latter end of August or the beginning of September My Lords I beseech your Lordships to ask him whether in Sir George Wakeman's Tryal he did not say he was to receive Orders from me in June or July when I came into the Country L. H. Stew. Did not you say at Sir George Wakeman's Tryal that you were to receive Orders from my Lord Stafford in June or July when he came into the Countrey Mr. Dugdale My Lord I submit to your Lordship and the rest of my Lords here whether when that Question was asked by my Lord Stafford I did not say That the first time I entred into correspondency with the Consulters they told me my Lord was to come down then and I should receive Orders from him I had heard of my Lord Stafford before but not to enter into any Consults with him till he came down the latter end of that Summer L. Staff I beseech your Lordships pardon me I desire him to answer positively whether at the Tryal of Sir George Wakeman he did not say he was to receive Orders from me in June or July when I came into the Country L. H. Stew. Did you say so at Sir George Wakeman's Tryal Mr. Dugdale I believe I did say so for I had it from others and not my Lord Stafford himself L. Staff My Lords in June or July I was not in the Country L. H. Steward He says You were to come down not that you did come down L. Stafford If you will let him do thus there is no man safe I shall begin the Tragedy and millions will follow He swore at the Tryal of Sir George Wakeman or that of those other persons That there was a Consult at my Lord Aston's at Tixal where I was one in August Mr. Dugdale My Lords I did not swear so but in August or September or one of them as now I swear L. Stafford I shall prove it by the Book and Witnesses that were there Mr. Dugd. Then they did me wrong by printing it for I never said of your Lordship otherwise than
Dugdale was there Furnese Yes my Lords I was L. Stafford Pray my Lords ask him whether I sent for Dugdale or he desired to speak to 〈◊〉 L. H. Steward Did my Lord send for Dugdale or did he come to you to speak to my Lord for him Furnese No Dugdale spoke to me first L. H. Steward What did he say to you pray Furnese My Lords about eight or nine of the clock in the morning I came to go to my Lords Chamber and I came through my Lord Aston's Hall and coming through I met Mr. Dugdale coming to me and said he had one favour to desire of me He said he would fain go to the Race but said he I do not know how to go for my Lord is very angry with me and if I should ask him he would be worse for he is displeased that I have medled so far in these matters already Therefore I desire some means may be used that I may go and I desire that you would speak to my Lord to get leave for me to go for Mr. Fox is there and hath a great deal of money in his hands and divers people will give mony to bett and so it will be a great loss and prejudice to me not to go So I did promise him my Lords and went into my Lords Chamber and told him and when I had spoke to my Lord my Lord bid him come in and when he came in my Lord asked him several Questions about the Race my Lord asked him what hopes he had for he said a great deal of money was laid by several people he replyed he could win but he wanted money to bett says my Lord I will bett Twenty pound for Staffordshire sake though I were sure to lose And then after some discourse to that purpose my Lord told him he would speak to his Lord. After my Lord was drest he went out of his Chamber and went to my Lord Aston to ask him leave for Dugdale and my Lord bid me make my self ready to go to the Race About nine or ten of the clock I was ready to go and coming down the back stairs my Lord met me go says he to Etching-Hill and see what Bets there are and take Stephen Dugdale with you to shew you the way for I have asked his Lord leave for him to go So Stephen Dugdale went along with me to the Stable and took out his Horse mine was not ready but I overtook him in half a mile and it was eleven of the clock ere we were at Ridgley I asked some questions about one Mr. Gerard and I think about Twelve of the Clock we were at the Race and I staid till One with him and Mr. Fox who was a party concerned in the Race and there were several Betts laid I was watchfnl when my Lord should come lest he should want me So I left them and went to the Room where my Lord was to dine and when I went to my Lord I left him betting About 2 of the Clock the Lords and Gentlemen all went to Dinner that were there and when we had half dined betwixt two and three Dugdale came in and we ask'd him how the wagers went he said he would bet Gold to Silver if he had it but he had betted away all his Money I know not how much So there was a Gentleman that was Servant to my Lord Aston one George Hobson by name he lent him two Guineys and odd Money and I lent him some forty or fifty Shillings out of my own Pocket which I told him I would not lend unless he would give it me at the Hill again before the Race began because I was fearful my Lord should go to Stafford again from my Lord Aston's that night About 4 or 5 a Clock I went up to the Race and demanded my Money and he paid it me before the Race begun and after the Race was done I lost him My Lord went home and I waited on him This was about 5 or 6 and about the mid-way towards my Lord Aston's House he went into the Coach and I got on Horseback and we got home about 6 or 7 of the Clock as I suppose But at night after Supper I enquired for Dugdale how he took his loosings and how he did after it They told me he was gone to Bed so I saw him no more that night The next morning my Lord bid me come betimes for he would go to Stafford that morning where we dined at Mr. Abden's and from thence took our way to go to my Lords own House L. Stafford Now my Lords if you please to ask this Boy whether I bid him go and call Dugdale to me and leave him there L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford did bid you Mr. Furnese go and dress your self and make you ready for the Race did you not leave Dugdale behind you in the Chamber when you went to dress your self Furnese No my Lord Dugdale was gone thence and my Lord was gone too before me to my Lord Aston's L. H. Steward I still ask you the Question you are upon an Obligation very great as much as if you were upon your Oâ—th whether you were in my Lords Chamber before Dugdale came in and staid till after he went out Lord Stafford And whether I bid him go out or no Lord High Stew. Were you there before Dugdale went in Furnese He went along with me in I conducted him in Lord High Stew. Did you stay all the while Dugdale was there Furnese As near as I remember I staid there all the while L. Stafford Ask him positively Furnese Yes my Lords I was there all the while Dugdale staid but I cannot say positively how long it was L. H. Steward Mr. Dugdale you are upon your Oath he says he came in along with you and you went out of the Chamber before him and he was there all the while you were there Mr. Dugdale My Lords I am not positive which of my Lord's Servants it was that came for me but one it was But when I came into the Chamber to my Lord my Lord was getting up and he charged them both to go sorth and the Room was clear and I saw no body L. Stafford My Lords ask my man Furnese My Lord never bid me go forth that day nor any else in my life when any was in the room Mr. Dugd. My Lords if it please your Lordships Mr. Furnese was pleased to say I would bett Gold to Silver but in that he was mistaken for the odds was quite six to four against us L. H. Steward Well we are not upon the Race now or the Wagers laid there But Gentlemen of the House of Commons will you ask this man any Questions Sir Will. Jones No my Lords we have none to ask Sir Tho. Lee. We desire to know where he lives now what Country-man he is and what Religion he is of L. H. Stew. Whom do you serve now Furnese My Lord Stafford L. H.
he would be revenged of my Lord Stafford did you Sawyer No of my Lord Aston Then another time being at Stafford he owed me Twenty nine Pounds and he was under the Serjeants hands and then he promised me from time to time he would pay me and did not keep his word This was three or four days before he begun to peach He bid me come such a day and he would pay me part of the money and when I came thither he told me it was reported That he should be a Peacher and that there was a speech how that he should have two hundred pounds for informing that there were Fourteen Priests in the Country but he takes a Glass of Drink and Thomas says he by God I wish this may be my Damnation and my Poison if I know of any Plot or any Priests L. H. Steward Was not he a Papist then Sawyer I cannot absolutely tell that whether he was or no. L. H. Steward Do you know one Father Evers Sawyer My Lords I have seen him Lord High Steward Hath he never been at Tixal Sawyer Yes My Lords I have seen him there L. H. Stew. And have not you seen Dugdale in his Company Sawyer Yes I have L. H. Stew. Did not you at Tixal think Dugdale a stout able Fellow Sawyer No he never was accounted to be so L. H. Stew. Then I ask you if you thought him an honest man or a rich man Sawyer No my Lords for I 'll tell you more than that my Lord Aston employed him to be his Bayliff and receive his Rents and to pay Workmen their Wages which he received every Saturday aud my Lord Aston did Accompt with him where he did set his hand to receive the poor Workmens Wages according to their Bills when they had not been paid some of them whole years and half years and quarters And they came and cryed to my Lord that they were not paid and thereupon Dugdale did say That one of them had demanded more of my Lord than was his due for he said he had reckoned such a day with him and paid him so much money which man said he was not that day at Tixal and so he hindred him of part of his money L. H. Stew. Did you ever know that Dugdale did forswear himself Sawyer That I do not know my Lords I did hear he was concern'd in a Race about which there was a Tryal and a Dispute which had won This â— have heard by report Sir Fr. Winn. Speak your own knowledge not Reports L. H. Stew. I ask you do you remember the day when my Lord Stafford came to Tixal Sawyer He came on the 12. day of the month L. H. Stew. What September Sawyer Yes the 12. of September L. H. Stew. Did you ever see Dugdale in the Company of my Lord Stafford while he was at Tixal Sawyer No never in the House but at the Race he hath come into the Parlour Mr. Treby You had Discourse with Dugdale you say he took a Glass and drank and wished it might be his Poyson Was not Father Evers that time at my Lord Aston's Sawyer Not as I know of my Lords Mr. Treby Was he not commonly there Sawyer Yes Mr. Treby If he were Mr. Dugdale must know it and how then could he take a Glass and wish it were Poyson if he knew where any Priest was since it was apparent he knew where that Priest was 'T is most improbable Mr. Dugdale should say thus Sawyer My Lords this was three or four days e're he confessed any thing he knew of his knowledge Mr. Treby What Perswasion of Religion are you Sawyer Of the Church of England Mr. Serj. Maynard Pray my Lords ask him one Question he says Dugdale went away from my Lord Aston's was not there a speech of a Plot at that time that was discovered Sawyer Yes that I heard Sir Fr. Winn. My Lords I would ask him one Question more Was there no discourse of the Death of a Justice of Peace that was said to be killed in London about that time Sawyer To my best remembrance as I heard there was Mr. Dugdale My Lords if your Lordships please that I should call Witnesses to confront him now or afterwards Sir Will. Jones Not now stay till your time comes L. Stafford Then call Philips who stood up L. H. Stew What is your Name Sir Witness Ralph Philips L. H. Stew. What are you a Clergy-man Mr. Philips Yes L. H. Stew. Are you beneficed Mr. Philips Yes my Lord. L. H. Stew. Where Mr. Philips At Tixal my Lord. L. H. Stew. You are a person that knows the Obligation that lies upon you to give a true Testimony what can you say of Mr. Dugdale Mr. Philips My Lords I have very little to say concerning Stephen Dugdale as to any thing of the Plot but in reference to what he should relate concerning Mr. Sambidge and me in the Narrative which he deposed upon the Tryal of Sir George Wakeman He said then he did receive a Letter concerning the death of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey which was dated the 12. of October as I remember and that he did communicate the Letter to Mr. Sambidge and me immediately the next Tuesday Whereas I will assure you my Lords I never heard neither by Letter nor word of mouth from him nor any other till it was publickly known L. H. Stew. You did not live in my Lord Aston's house did you Mr. Philips No my Lords Sir Will. Jones We know not what he says we desire to understand what he means L. H. Stew. He takes notice that Dugdale at the Tryal of Sir George Wakeman did depose touching a Letter dated the 12. of October which should come down to Tixal intimating the death of Sir Edmnndbury Godfrey and that he did communicate that with the Parson of Tixal and another which Parson comes now to say He did communicate no such a matter to him Sir VVill. Jones We desire to ask him whether he was present at that Tryal and heard him say so Mr. Philips I was not present at the Tryal but if the Narrative of the Tryal be truth he did say so L. H. Stew. So then you only come to disprove what is printed that Dugdale should say Mr. Philips Then I leave it to your Judgments whether what he said in the Narrative of that Tryal do concur with the Truth L. Stafford I desire then to ask him whether Stephen Dugdale did not run away from my Lord Aston's and would have him go to my Lord to own him for his Servant L. H. Steward What do you know of Dugdale's running away Mr. Philips I know nothing at all of that my Lords L. Stafford Whether he did speak to him for his Servant when he was in the Justices hands L. H. Stew. Can you say any thing touching the Credit of Dugdale Mr. Philips I have nothing to say concerning Dugdale's Credit L. H. Stew. Did you know him Mr. Philips Yes ever since I came
to Tixal L. H. Stew. How long is that Mr. Philips About fourteen years L. H. Stew. What Reputation had he in the Country was he looked upon as one that would perjure himself Mr. Philips I never knew any thing of that Lord High Steward Was he thought a stout man Mr. Philips He was in good repute with some and indifferent with others L. H. Stew. Will you call any more Witnesses my Lord L. Stafford I would only ask him one Question Whether he did go to my Lord Aston from Dugdale to know if he would own him for his Servant Lord High Steward What say you Sir did you Mr. Philips Yes my Lords he knows very well I did he did request me to go to him My Lord Aston I was loth to go to because I had no familiarity with him nor Interest in him but he did request and urge me so much that I did go by much motives and persuasions from him and I did speak to my Lord so I told him the Message I had was from Mr. Dugdale who would request of my Lord that he would own him for his Servant for if he did not he knew not what to do with himself but if he did he might be free from the Gaol and from the Oaths and escape the Troubles that were upon him So my Lord replyed to me 'T is his own act and deed and I have nothing to do with him and let the Justices do what they will with him which were Sir Walter Bagott and Mr. Kinnersley Mr. Foley We desire to know whether he heard any discourse about a Plot at that time or no. Mr. Philips Truly my Lords I heard a talk of a Plot but not at that time Mr. Foley My Lords I desire to know if he took Mr. Dugdale for a person that might be in the Plot if there was any such thing Mr. Philips I cannot tell how to answer that 't is an hard Question I am not so intimately acquainted with persons whose secrets are not reposed in me L. Staff The next Witness I desire may be with the leave of the Gentlemen of the House of Commons Sir Walter Bagott I did desire him to be here Sir Will. Jones There he is we do not oppose it L. H. Stew. Is it your Lordships pleasure that Sir Walter Bagott be heard in his place Lords Yes Sir Walter Bagott L. H. Stew. What would you ask Sir Walter my Lord L. Staff My Lords I desire to ask Sir Walter Bagott whether he did not apprehend Dugdale and upon what account it was L. H. Stew. Sir Walter Bagott my Lord desires to know of you whether you did apprehend Dugdale and upon what account Sir Walter Bagott My Lords Mr. Dugdale was taken at an unseasonable time of night and brought to me the next morning by the Watch as the other Witnesses have told your Lordships and I took him away to Stafford where there were several other Justices of the Peace there we offered him the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy which he took After the taking of these Oaths we told him that he was a likely man to know something of the Plot and it was a very proper time for him to discover it to us that were Justices he at that time did deny the knowledge of it that is all I can say Lord Stafford I desire Sir Walter Bagott may be asked whether he did not go to my Lord Aston to see whether he would own Dugdale as his Servant L. H. Stew. Did you ask my Lord Aston to own him for his Servant Sir Walt. Bag. Yes I did for my Lords house being in the way to Stafford whither I was going I called upon him to know if Mr. Dugdale were his Servant he told me he was no servant of his and he would not receive him Upon which I and another Justice of the Peace that was with me took him to Stafford The occasion of our meeting there was to summon in the Militia upon an Alarm of the Papists being risen in Derbyshire L. Stafford I make this use of it my Lords that my Lord Aston would not receive him and if my Lord Aston had known he had been in the Plot and could have discovered him he would not have disobliged him L. H. Stew. Nay he says more then that which you don't hear he says when they examined him they gave him the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy and then told him he would do well to discover his knowledge of the Plot and then he did not own any thing he knew nay he denyed it Mr. Foley Did he deny the knowing of it Sir Walter Bagott Yes he did then Sir Fran. Win. He was not resolved to discover at that time Mr. Serj. Maynard We desire Sir Walter Bagott may be asked whether he examined him upon his Oath or no. Sir Walter Bagott No I did not Mr Serj. Mayn But had they then just given him the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy Sir Walter Bagott Yes my Lords we gave him those Oaths and those only L. Stafford Then Mr. Kinnersley if you please who stood up Be pleased to ask this worthy Gentleman what he knows about Dugdales going from my Lord Aston L. H. Stew. First let us know this Gentleman L. Stafford His name is Kinnersley Mr. Kinnersley What Questions would your Lordship ask me L. Stafford What you know about Dugdales going from my Lord Aston L. H. Stew. Mr. Kinnersley we must know your Christian Name Mr. Kinnersley Thomas L. H. Stew. Do you know Mr. Dugdale Mr. Kinnersley My Lords I was not acquainted with Mr. Dugdale till Sir Brian Broughton Sir Walter Bagott and I and others gave him the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy the latter end of November or the beginning of December I did not take notice exactly of the time L. H. Stew. What year Mr. Kinnersley 78 L. H. Stew. Well Sir go on Mr. Kinnersley When he had taken the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy I asked him if he knew any Treason or Conspiracy against the King telling him it was a seasonable time to declare it He told me he knew of none This is all I know and all the discourse that I remember we had with Mr. Dugdale Mr. Serj. Maynard Pray why did you ask him that Question Mr. Kinnersley The Plot was then newly broken out Mr. Serj. Maynard Why did you ask him so particularly Mr. Treby Why did you think Mr. Dugdale concerned in it Mr. Kinnersley Because we heard he was a Papist and my Lord Aston's Servant L. Staff Then I desire Sir Thomas Whitegrave may be examined Who stood up L. H. Stew. What say you to Sir Tho. Whitegrave my Lord L. Staff Will your Lordships please to ask Sir Tho. Whitegrave whether he did not examine Dugdale about the Plot and what he said at that time Sir Tho. Whitegrave My Lords I came to Stafford the latter end of November or the beginning of December I am not certain which but I think it
was this time two years The Deputy-Lieutenants met about the Militia of the County They told me that Mr. Dugdale was in Town and was under an Arrest the occasion of his coming to Town was his refusal of the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy which he had since taken I proposed to them the sending for him for I thought this was a fit opportunity to get something of him about the Plot. They seemed to approve of what I said but withal I told them it was not good to send for him till the Evening late that the people of the Town might not take notice of his coming At night we did send for him and the Gentlemen desired that I would examine him at the end of the Table so I called him up and told him I was sorry he was fallen into that misfortune to be Arrested and that Mr. Mayor had not dealt well with him or us to take that advantage of him that now he had taken the Oaths I looked upon him as one of us and would do him any kindness I could He said truly for his part he was born a Protestant and of Protestant Parents and it was his misfortune to fall into the Houses of Papists but he never liked their Religion I then told him Sir you may do your self a kindness serve God and oblige your King and Country I am very confident you know of this horrid Plot pray do not stifle your Conscience with any Oath of Secrecy but let it come out Many I told him strained their Consciences to serve their Interests but you may clear your Conscience and at the same time promote your true Interest He replyed as he hoped to be saved he knew nothing of it And this is as much as I know of the matter L. H. Stew. Do you ask him any Question Gentlemen Managers No my Lord. L. Staff My Lords I shall humbly move your Lordships now that you will please to take notice this fellow Dugdale hath endeavoured to perswade people to Swear against me falsly and offered them money for it In order to the proof of which I desire your Lordships would call John Morrall Samuel Holt and William Robinson Then Robinson stood up L. Staff This man I never saw before in my life L. H. Stew. What is your name Witness Robinson L. H. Stew. What is your Christian Name Robinson William L. H. Stew. Where do you live Robinson In Worcestershire now Lord H. Stew. With whom Robinson With my self now L. H. Stew. Do you know Dugdale Sir Fr. Winn. We desire he may give you an account what Profession he is of Robinson An Upholster Sir Fr. Winn. How long he hath lived in Worcestershire and in what place there Robinson I have lived half a year in Worcestershire half a mile beyond Worcester Sir Franc. Win. And whether he follows that Trade or Profession now or no Robinson No I do not follow it now Sir Fr. Winn. What do you live upon and how Robinson I live of my self now L. H. Stew. How is that Robinson Of my own Money Mr. Hambden We desire to know whether this man was a Servant to my Lady Gerard or no. Robinson Never Mr. Hambden Or to my Lord Gerard of Gerards Bromley Robinson Never not an hired Servant my Lords Mr. Foley Were you a volunteer Servant or what were you Mr. Treby Did you work at any time there for my Lord or Lady Gerard Robinson No. L. H. Stew. How came you to live there Robinson I went over from a Cocking out of Cheshire L. H. Stew. How long were you there Robinson Three weeks or a month L. H. Stew. What was your Employment there Robinson Nothing at all I followed no Employment Mr. Treby What kind of servant were you then L. H. Stew. Come do you know Dugdale Robinson Yes L. H. Stew. How long have you known him Robinson I have known him about five years L. H. Stew. What say you to him Robinson I say I met Mr. Dugdale about Midsummer was twelve-month in London about Charing-Cross and he carried me to the Harp and Ball and gave me Beer and Mum and such as the House did afford and treated me and asked me what made me so dejected and cast down I told him I was not well I was poorer than I used to be He told me again I should not want any money that he had and if I would please to be ruled by him and do what he would have me he would furnish me with money And he took his Handkerchief out of his pocket and bid me if I wanted take money there I took none but told him I would not meddle nor make with any thing that night Then he told me he could furnish me with money and put me in a way to get money if I would come in as an Evidence against my Lord Stafford L. Stafford Be pleased to ask him for I never saw the man before nor heard of him till last week what he should say against me and whether he knew me or not L. H. Stew. Did he tell you what you should say against my Lord Stafford Robinson Nothing at all my Lords L. Staff Did he say any thing or nothing Or did he ask whether he knew me or not L. H. Stew. Did you tell him you knew my Lord Stafford Robinson No if it please you I told him I did not know him L. H. Stew. And after you said you did not know him he offered you money to swear against him Did he Robinson Yes my Lords he did so to come in as an Evidence against him L. Staff Will your Lordships please to ask how much money there was in the Handkerchief L. H. Stew. How much money was in the Hankerchief Robinson I believe there might be eight or nine or ten pounds L. H. Stew. Did he offer you all the money or bid you take some Robinson He bid me take some L. H. Stew. Did he make any agreement with you for what yon should take Robinson No not at all my Lords Mr. Foley Did he see Dugdale any more or was there an end of it then Robinson No I saw him no more L. H. Stew. Will you ask him any more Questions Sir W. Jones We shall have occasion to speak of him we desire he would not go away when our time comes Then another Witness stood up L. H. Stew. What is your Name Witness John Morrall L. H. Stew. What are you Morrall A Barber L. H. Stew. Where do you live Morrall At Ridgley L. H. Stew. Where is that Morrall In Staffordshire within six miles of Stafford L. H. Stew. What do you ask him L. Stafford Whether Dugdale did not perswade him to swear against some of the Lords in the Tower L. H. Stew. Do you know Dugdale Morrall Yes my Lords I have known him twelve or thirteen years L. H. Steward What can you say against him Morrall My Lords this Mr. Dugdale the 6. of August last was twelve-month sent for
well as others and therefore desired me to go Sir Fr. Winn. Now it is out Sir W. Jones It was done like a Secretary L. H. Steward Had you ever that curiosity before Lydcott Yes I 'll assure your Lordships I had a great curiosity to hear it L. H. Stew. Were you at any other Tryal Lydcott Yes at the five Jesuits Tryal and Langhorns Then another Witness stood up L. H. Steward What is your Name Witness Charles Gifford L. Stafford Ask him whether he did not hear at the Tryal of the five Jesuits or Sir George Wakeman Dugdale say that he did communicate that Letter to some people I name not who the Tuesday after L. H. Stew. Were you at the Tryal of the Five Jesuits Gifford Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. Did you take Notes Gifford Yes my Lords I was summoned there as an Evidence I had occasion of being there both at the Five Jesuits Tryal and VVakemans and Langhorns L. H. Stew. You took Notes you say Gifford Yes I did L. H. Stew. What do you remember that Mr. Dugdale did then swear Gifford I remember at the Five Jesuits Tryals he did swear he received a Letter sent to Evers which he intercepted and it spoke of the death of a Justice of Peace and he returned Answer to Evers again he would be hanged if it did not spoil the business And he said farther he could not hold but went to an Ale-house and there he did impart it but then he did say there was one that could testifie and make out what he said upon which he called Mr. Chetwyn who deposed much to the same purpose And then at Sir George VVakemans Tryal he did positively declare that he spoke of it at an Alehouse to a Minister Parson Philips and my Lord Aston's Kinsman L. H. Steward What is his Name Gifford Mr. Sambidge L. Stafford Well my Lords I have no more to say to him but I conceive by this 't is plain that Dugdale did then say he had communicated it to Mr. Philips and Mr. Sambidge I shall call Mr. Sambidge to g ve you an account Mr. Sambidge stood up L. Stafford Be pleased to ask him whether he did hear Mr. Dugdale say on the Tuesday that Sir Edmundbury Godfrey was murdered the Saturday before L. H. Stew. You hear the Question answer it Mr. Sambidge Who must I speak to L. Stafford He is very deaf and very old my Lords Then the Black Rod was sent to be near him to put the Question to him Black Rod. What would you have hâ—m asked my Lord Lord Stafford Whether Mr. Dugdale did tell him on the Tuesday that Sir Edmundbury Godfrey was murdered the Saturday before Black Rod. Did Mr. Dugdale tell you of the Tuesday that Sir Edmundbury Godfrey was murdered the Saturday before Mr. Sambidge No my Lords he never told me any such thing I take it upon my salvation I never heard it till Friday or Saturday he was found at Bury hill Lord Stafford Ask him if he were with Dugdale at the Alehouse the Tuesday before Mr. Sambidge Dugdale never spoke any such thing to me L. H. Stew. Were not you with him at the Alehouse Mr. Sambidge No. L. H. Stew. Not on Munday Mr. Sambidge No. Lord H. Stew. Nor on Tuesday Mr. Sambidge No. L. H. Stew. Nor Wednesday Mr. Sambidge Not as I know of Sir W. Jones We shall prove he was L. Stafford Pray ask him what Reputation Dugdale hath in the Country Mr. Sambidge Oh the wickedst man that ever lived upon the face of the earth I know great part of it my self and a hundred and a hundred of people will say as much L. H. Stew. What Religion are you of Mr. Sambidge I was never a Papist in my life nor ever a Phanatick L. H. Stew. What do you know of Dugdale in particular that is ill Mr. Sambidge Yes my Lords I 'll tell you he was a very abusive man especially to the Clergy and most especially to Mr. Philips with whom I boarded My Lord Aston that is dead came and told me of it Said I You are misinformed for this Dugdale is a Knave a Rogue and all the Countrey ring of him for his wickedness upon which he cites me into Litchfield Court for defaming him and he entertains all the Proctors that I could not get one to put in my Answer but before the day came he discharged the Court and never appeared for we had that against him that he durst not appear L. H. Stew. What particulars do you know Mr. Sambidge He said the Clergy of England was a lewd Clergy and a pack of Rogues L. H. Steward Gentlemen of the House of Commons will you ask him any Question Managers No. L. H. Stew. Hath my Lord no more to say to him L. Staff No my Lords L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford go on hath your Lordship done with Dugdale or have you any more Witnesses L. Staff No my Lords I have a great deal more to say to him L. H. Stew. Go on then L. Staff My Lords I conceive by this 't is proved to your Lordships that Dugdale did at that Tryal declare he had acquainted Mr. Sambidge and Mr. Philips with the Letter about the Death of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey the Tuesday after he was murdered And I conceive I have proved to your Lordships by their denying it that he did not tell them so and so he is forsworn in that I should now have humbly desired your Lordships that you will please to call William Day but upon asking the Question I find he is not yet come to Town and so I shall not trouble your Lordships with him I desire that Thomas Sawyer may be called again Who stood up L. Stafford Pray be pleased to ask him whether he did not hear Dugdale wish he might be damned if he knew any thing of the Plot. L. H. Stew. He said that before L. Stafford Then I beg your Lordships pardon I shall not call him again L. H. Stew. Go on my Lord. L. Stafford My Lords there are a great many other Witnesses which I could call but it is to no purpose and so I shall call no more as to Dugdale I conceive upon the whole matter his Reputation and Credit are gone for he is forsworn before the Justices of Peace in that he said there was no Plot and wished he might be damned if he knew of any Plot. I conceive 't is also proved that upon the Twentieth of September when he says I did communicate with him about the Kings Death he was only then with me upon his own desire and my servants were by there was nothing discoursed of but about the Foot-Race And likewise as to what he swore in August that I was at such a meeting at Tixal he is forsworn for I was not there and so I hope that Witness is laid aside no Creature will give any Credit to him neither your Lordships nor the House of Commons L. H. Stew.
Have you done with Mr. Dugdale L. Stafford Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. Whom will you proceed against next L. Stafford Dr. Oats L. H. Stew. Call Dr. Oats L. Stafford Only give me leave to say one thing my Lords that you were pleased to say I should have Copies of the two Depositions of the Twenty fourth and Twenty ninth of December And I had one to inquire but can't find that of the Twenty ninth Then Dr. Oats stood up L. H. Stew. What say you to Dr. Oats my Lord Lord Stafford This Dr. Oats if your Lordships please I desire may be asked when was the first time he ever saw me in his life L. H. Steward When was the first time Dr Oats you saw my Lord Stafford Dr. Oats My Lords the first time I saw this Gentleman at the Bar was as near as I remember at Mr. Fenwicks L. H. Stew. That was in Drury lane Dr. Oats Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. When was that Dr. Oats That was as near as I remember in June L. H. Stew. Was it that time the Commission you spoke of was delivered Dr. Oats Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. Did you see that Commission Dr. Oats Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. Did you read it Dr. Oats Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. From whom was it Dr. Oats I cannot be positive as to that but as near as I remember it was signed as the rest was signed L. H. Stew. How was that Dr. Oats Johannes Paulus Oliva L. H. Stew. You read it Dr. Oats Yes I did my Lords L. H. Stew. It was a Commission to be Pay-Master of the Army was it not Dr. Oats Yes it was L. H. Stew. And it was delivered to my Lord Dr. Oats Yes it was L. H. Stew. By the Name of Mr. Howard of Effingham Dr. Oats Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. What says your Lordship to this L. Stafford What is it possible for me to say against this I declare to your Lordships in the presence of God I never saw the man in my life I never went by any Name since I had the Honour of being a Peer but by the name of Stafford I never heard of Mr. Fenwick the Jesuit nor by the name Thompson till this Plot was discovered and he taken This you may believe or not if you please but this is as true as I am alive My Lords I desire I may have out of the Journals the Deposition on which I was committed L. H. Stew. Turn to the Journal L. Stafford It was read as I remember Friday 25. Octob. 78. Then the Clerk turned to the Journal and read Die Veneris 25. die Octobris 1678. THe Lord Viscount Stafford acquainted the House That he was informed that there was a Warrant issued out from the Lord Chief Justice of England to apprehend him which he thought fit to acquaint their Lordships with and submitted himself their Lordships Judgment The Lord Chief Justice being present was commanded to give the House an account of the business who said That last night about nine of the clock he received a Letter from the Speaker of the House of Commons dated from the Speakers Chair to come to the House of Commons about business of great concernment Accordingly he attended the House of Commons where the Speaker told him that the House of Commons had receiv'd Accusations of High Treason against five Lords and some Gentlemen and desired him to issue out his Warrants for their Apprehension The Persons were the Earl of Powis Viscount Stafford the Lord Arundel of Wardour the Lord Petres and the Lord Bellasis And upon this he issued out his Warrants for their Apprehension having taken the Examination of Titus Oats upon Oath That the Earl of Powis and the Lord Arundel were brought to him this morning in custody and he advised them to render themselves to the Gatehouse where now they are Upon this the Examination of Oats was read whereby it did appear That the Lord Viscount Stafford was charged to be in a Conspiracy of Treason against the King The Lord Viscount Stafford denyed the Fact and after this withdrew And after a while the House was informed that his Lordship would render himself to the Lord Chief Justice L. H. Stew. This is all that is in the Journal L. Stafford Then my Lords if your Lordships please to remember all of you that were there that I was accused by Dr. Oats whose Depositions I desire to see taken before my Lord Chief Justice that he had seen Letters of mine written to Fenwick Harcourt and some others three or four Jesuits in which I was consenting to the Plot that I had sent my Son to Lisbon yet I would be as kind to the Jesuits as before though there was some difference between us These Affidavits I desire to see which as I take it were read before your Lordships that day L. H. Stew. The Affidavit was taken by my Lord Chief Justice in the House of Commons where he did attend them upon their Summons I know not if the Original were read in the House of Lords or the Copy but it seems it is not entred into the Lords Journal but your Lordship had an Order to take Copies of all things you would have demanded and if you would not I cannot tell what to say to it L. Stafford Truly I could not take a Copy because I did not know where it was I desire my Lord Chief Justice may be asked where it is that is all I desire and I will then go on L. H. Stew. I think Dr. Oats does say at this time that he had seen Letters of your Lordships offering your Correspondence and Assistance L. Stafford If Dr. Oats will own he said no more than is in that Affidavit I am content Lord High Steward Have you any Copy of your own Examination Doctor Oats Dr. Oats Yes my Lords I think I have it here L. H. Stew. Marry that is very well produce it then Do you oppose it Gentlemen Managers No we agree we desire the Truth may come out Then Dr. Oats looking amongst his Papers drew out one and offered it to the Court. L. H. Stew. Is that a true Copy of your first Examination Dr. Oates My Lords I will not swear it but it was given me for a true Copy L. H. Stew. By whom was it given you Dr. Oates I can't remember now 't is two years ago Sir W. Jones Unless we know whence it comes or what authority it hath we cannot consent it should be read L. H. Steward Had you it from my Lord Cheif Justice or any servant of his Dr. Oates I can't tell whether Sir Charles Harbord gave it me or no. Sir Fr. Winn. My Lords Sir Charles Harbord might be of the Committee of Examinations but the Examination for which my Lord asked was not in the Committee nor before the house My Lord chief Justice retired out of the house Virtute Officii took it Now it was very fair in Mr.
the Bar does swear what is said there is true Lord Stafford Then he says there he saw Letters signed by me to Fenwick and others I do humbly desire to know whether that be Evidence or no that a man says he saw Letters and does not say he knew them to be my hand nor what the Letters were in particular nothing that he did prove of it I must appeal to your Lordships to all my Lords to my Lord High Steward and the rest that were of the Council at that time whether Dr. Oats did not positively name some and left ne out at the Council Table And whether Dr. Oats did not say there was no Lord concerned in the Plot and whether some of my Lords did not say so and told some other Lords of it from whom I had it And in order to this desire Sir Philip Lloyd may be examined and if he did not know of my being in it then he hath since forsworn himself L. H. Stew. My Lord I know not where you are nor what you are about are you objecting against Oats upon any Evidence out of the Journal Lord Stafford My Lords I go upon this that hath been read L. H. Stew. Pray my Lord produce your Witnesses that did hear him say any thing and take your advantage of it Lord Stafford I call Sir Philip Lloyd L. H. Stew. Where is Sir Philip Lloyd L. Stafford My Lords I do not know I think he is here I hope he will come Then he appeared amongst the Members of the House of Commons and was called to the Bar amongst the other Witnesses and stood up L. H. Stew. What does your Lordship ask Sir Philip Lloyd L. Staff Whether he was not by when Dr. Oats was asked if there were any Lords concerned in the Plot and he said no and whether he did not tell me so a day or two before I was committed in the Pâ—inces Lodgings L. H. Stew. What say you Sir Philip â—loyd did you ever hear Dr. Oats deny upon his Oath that ever he heard of any Lords that were concerned in the Plot Sir Philip Lloyd My Lords Truly I cannot remember any such thing If my Lord put me in mind of any particular Circumstance or time I may recollect it I must confess I think I have heard such a thing rumor'd but I am so unfortunate I cannot remember any thing positively of it L. Stafford He did tell me so I am sure Sir Philip Lloyd Truly my Lords I would be glad to remember any thing to justifie the Truth but I can't remember this L. Stafford But whether it were so or no your Lordships that were of the Council can tell L. H. Steward My Lord I do not know Your Lordship cannot be refused if you press it to ask any of the Lords of the Council if they remember any such thing that did pass there but if I were there or in the Council I deal plainly with your Lordship I cannot say that there was any such thing said L. Stafford If there be any here that were there besides I desire they may be asked L. H. Stew. If your Lordship will call upon any other of my Lords that were there they will tell you Lord Stafford I do not know who were there I can't call them L. H. Stew. You may ask any of the Lords of the Council who were there that time Dr. Oats was examined Lord Marquess of Worcester My Lords I was not at the Council then but I heard it not there indeed but as a general Report abroad L. Stafford I desire my Lord Privy Seal may tell what he knows of it Lord Privy Seal What is it your Lordship would know of me L. Stafford Whether Oats did not say he had no more to accuse Lord Privy Seal Where my Lord L. Stafford At the Council Table Lord Privy Seal 'T is a very hard thing for me to charge my memory with all the Questions at an Examination we use to refer to the Examinations themselves I have seen some Examinations I wish all were so wherein the Questions are put down as well as the Answers and I cannot charge my memory that he said he had no more to accuse L. Staff I desire then all the Lords of the Council that are here to say whether or no he was not asked this Question particularly by my Lord Chancellor and I desire particularly his Lordship would say whether he can't remember it whether he had any thing to say against some Lords and he answered they were to know of it but God forbid he should accuse them L. H. Stew. When should that be L. Stafford My Lords I can't say the day for I was not in Town But I desire to ask whether you did not ask him upon the first Discovery of the Plot whether he had any thing to say against some Lords L. H. Stew. Do you desire to know whether I asked him this Question if he had any thing to say against some Lords L. Stafford I do not say positively your Lordship but whether that Question was not asked him L. H. Stew. Certainly I should never ask any such Question of any man alive I might ask in general of any Lord but not of some L. Stafford Some or other Lords it was L. H. Steward I don't remember it and 't is impossible for any man living to remember what Questions he did ask two or three years ago upon an Examination L. Stafford I desire I may have leave to ask the Earl of Berkley a Question L. H. Steward What is it you would ask him L. Stafford My Lords I humbly ask his Lordship whether he did not hear Dr. Oats say after he had accused some persons before the Council that he had no more to accuse Earl of Berkley My Lords I had the Honour to be of the Privy Council about the time of the Discovery of the Plot but I do not remember that I heard Dr. Oats say any such thing there L. Staff Or in the House of Lords for I may mistake And therefore I desire my Lord of Berkley would declare what he heard Dr. Oats say before the House of Lords Earl of Berkley Yes my Lords in the Lords House I will tell your Lordships what I remember My Lord Chancellor to the best of my remembrance did ask Dr. Oats at the Bar of the House this Question My Lords desire to know if you can accuse any other Person or Persons of what Quality soever and you are incouraged by their Lordships to Accuse them His Answer was My Lords I have no more to accuse in relation to England but in relation to Ireland I have L. H. Steward That was after he had accused your Lordship my Lord Stafford Sir W. Jones We pray my Lords we may have the favour to ask that very Honourable Lord at what time Dr. Oats said this for the satisfaction of those that are present Earl of Berkley My Lords it was after Dr. Oats had accused my
Lord Stafford but before he had accused the Queen L. Stafford I beseech you my Lords to mark it and I am very glad of it he said he had no more to accuse in relation to England and yet after that he accused the Queen L. H. Stew. My Lord then the best account of it will be on the Journal the Question and Answer is entred there Die Jovis 31. die Octobr. 1678. Post Meridiem TItus Oats being at the Bar is directed to proceed in giving an Account of the Commissions given to several Lords and other Persons for Offices Civil and Military Upon which he proceeded in a particular Narrative thereof with some Circumstances tending to make out the truth thereof and then was commanded to withdraw but stay without Then upon Consideration had hereof the Lord Chancellor by directions of the House caused him to be called in again and told him that the Lords expect not his entring into particular Circumstances but if there be particular Persons concerned of what Quality soever they be the House expected he should name them but he named none but those he had mentioned in his Narrative nor could name no other Person Lord Stafford Then my Lords he said He knew no Persons more than he he had discovered and after did he not accuse the Queen and several others if he said true then he knew no body more if not he is Forsworn Sir VVill. Jones Pray prove he did Accuse the Queen L. Stafford He did so in the Council and he is clearly Perjured in that and so not to be believed And I say besides after that Dr. Oats had consulted with himself and possibly with some others what his Narrative should be and what he should accuse Persons of and did only accuse me of seeing some Letters signed Stafford and now he comes to give Evidence he knows more of my having a Commission After this rate it may be he may know a great deal more to morrow when he hath invented it And 't is a great sign he did not know of any more if he did know of that for I never had any Correspondence with the Jesuits nor any business transacted with them these twenty four or twenty five years Indeed at Ghent the English Jesuits were desired to do a little thing for me and they refused it me it was to send over a man that was to be a Witness in a Suit I had beyond Sea And I never writ one Letter to a Jesuit since nor he to me that I know of nor never had to do with them that I know of I never heard of Fenwicks Name nor Harcourts till I heard of the Plot nor of Johnson nor Thompson Jesuits and if any can prove it I will acknowledge my self guilty of all that is said against me And for that Dr. Oats at first said He only saw Letters of mine and after comes and accuses me of a Commission I appeal to your Lordships if there can be any truth or belief in him I cannot say more than what I have said already and I do challenge Dr. Oats at the day of Judgment to say if ever he saw me in his life till I was committed or if I did ever go by any Name but that of Stafford I will be content to dye immediately If I had gone by the Name of Howard I need not be ashamed of it for 't is a Name good enough to be owned I know there is a worthy Gentleman that bears the Name of Howard of Effingham but I never did If your Lordships please to let me ask Mr. Dugdale one Question L. H. Stew. Call Dugdale again who appeared What say you to him my Lord L. Stafford I desire to ask Dugdale whether he did not in his Depositions before Mr. Lane and Mr. Vernon swear that the 20 th of October I offered him 500 l. to kill the King Mr. Dugdale No September L. Stafford Ay September Mr. Dugdale Yes I think I did make that Deposition before Captain Lane I am certain I did that my Lord Stafford the 20 th or 21 th of September offered me 500 l. L. Stafford Then did not he say presently upon this he went to Mr. Evers Chamber L. H. Stew. He says so now Mr. Dugdale My Lords I am not certain it was the same day it was assoon as I could have opportunity it was presently after Lord Stafford Did he not say he told Erers what I said to him and he did not understand the meaning of it Mr. Dugdale I did say so to Mr. Evers I did ask Mr. Evers what my Lord Stafford's meaning was whether his intention was true or no to do as he said and whether my Lord was in that Condition as to be able to perform his promise for I feared payment of the mony and he told me Harcourt and the rest of the Jesuits would furnish it L. H. Steward So he said Yesterday L. Staff Then ask him if he did not say the beginning of September I met him at Tixal and I spake to him about such a business Mr. Dugdale My Lords I did say to the best of my Remembrance it was about that time the latter end of August or the beginning of September I would not be positive nor could not to five days Lord Stafford No I think not to 5000. Then I askt him this Question whether he did not presently upon that when I told him about the Design go to Mr. Evers and ask what it meant L. H. Steward He said so but now he went to Evers and asked what you meant L. Stafford I beseech you I may be understood whether he did not say in the beginning of September which was before the 20. or 21. in the Journal L. H. Stew. Is it in the Journal L. Stafford Yes L. H. Stew. Why then read it Die Sabbati 28. Decembris 1678. The Earl of Essex acquainted the House that he had received an Information out of the Countrey of very great Concernment which was read as followeth Staffordsh December 24th 1678. The Information of Stephen Dugdale Gent. late servant to the Lord Aston of Tixal concerning the Plot against our Soveraign Lord the King as followeth 1. THis Informant saith that presently after one Howard Almoner to the Queen went beyond the Seas he was told by George Hobson Servant to the said Lord Aston that there was a Design then intended for the Reformation of the Government to the Romish Religion 2. He informeth that in the beginning of September 1678. he met in Tixal nigh the Lord's Gates the Lord Stafford who said to this Informant it was said that they were troubled for that they could no say their Prayers but in a hid manner but suddenly there would be a Reformation to the Romish Religion and if there was but a good Success they should enjoy their Religion And upon the 20 th day of September last the said Lord Stafford told this Informant that there was a Design in hand and
if this Informant would undertake the Design he should have a good Reward and make himself famous 3. Upon the aforesaid day immediately after this Informant went into the Chamber of Mr. Francis Urie alias Evers a Jesuit in Tixal-Hall and asked him what the Lord Stafford meant by those words and after he had made him to swear secresie upon his knees he told him he might be a person imployed in the work and have a good Reward that would make him famous and then he told him he must be instrumental with others in taking away the Kings life and that it should be done by shooting or otherwise And that this Informant need not to fear for the Pope had excommunicated the King and that all that were excommunicated by him were Hereticks and they might kill them and be canoniz'd for Saints in so doing 4. The Informant saith that the said Evers and Hobson both said that the Design was as well to kill the Duke of Monmouth as the King 5. That George North Nephew to Pickering and Servant to the Lord Aston lately told this Informant that they had taken his Uncle meaning Pickering and put him into Newgate and thought the King deserved such an execrable death as was intended him because of his Whoring and Debauchery 6. That Mr. Evers said Mr. Bennyfield had a packet of Letters delivered to him from the Post-house which he feared the Lord Treasurer had notice of and therefore he delivered them to the Duke of York and the Duke delivered them to the King and that the King gave them to the Treasurer after he had read them but that the King did not believe them and therefore it was happy or else the Plot had been discovered 7. That he had received many Packets of Letters for Evers some of which this Informant broke up and found them to be and tend to the Establishing of the Romish Religion c. 8. That he had received several Sums of mony himself and knew of divers others that were imployed to put forth mony which was and is for the Jesuits use Stephen Dugdale Taken upon Oath the 24th day of Dcember 1678. before us Tho. Lane J. Vernon L. Stafford My Lords I find by this here that presently after one Howard Almoner to the Queen went over George Hobson Servant to my Lord Aston told Dugdale there was a Design to Reform the Government c. I beseech your Lordships I may ask him how long after he went over this Discourse was Mr. Dugdale I do not say I knew George Hobson before he came to be a Servant to my Lord Aston which was in the year 78. but that this was only a Discourse to me that the Plot had been so long carrying on L. Stafford He says upon his Oath presently after the Almoner went over he told him so Now the Almoner went over years before that when the Proclamation came out to Banish the Queens Servants for being Papists Mr. Dugdale I heard it there I never knew George Hobson before he came to be Servant to my Lord Aston but I did not tell it as a Discourse at that time or that it was more than what I had from him that there was such a Design so long before Lord Stafford He says presently after the Almoner went over in his Oath which was I think in the year 72. or 73. or rather in the year 75. about the end of the year 74. as I remember and he says presently three years after is that presently E'n now the end of August was the beginning of September and how long that was we can't tell and now three years is presently after Sir W. Jones He is telling of anothers Discourse with him L. H. Stew. My Lord you must observe that Dugdale says that he did hear it from Hobson after he came to my Lord Aston's Service Lord Stafford But he says presently after the Almoner went over and 't is impossible for he did not say it till three years after and so there is no truth in him Mr. Dugdale My Lords it was that Hobson told me that presently after the Almoner Howard went over there was such a Design carrying on L. H. Stew. You distinguish not and therefore don't comprehend 'T is one thing if Dugdale had said that presently after there was such a Design Hobson told him so L. Stafford I beseech you it is said That presently after the Almoner went over Hobson told him so L. H. Steward But it is not that presently after he heard the Discourse but George Hobson told him that presently after the Almoner went over there was such a Design L. Stafford 'T is said he was told presently after Then the Information was read again L. H. Stew. Do you know when Howard the Almoner went over Mr. Dugdale No my Lords but by report I heard when he went But I do not make that part of my Oath for I cannot absolutely remember it Lord. High Steward My Lord you must not make a Strain to to make a mistake Lord Stafford Gods Life is three years a Strain Mr. Dugd. I never did mean so nor never did intend so for I never knew him till he came to my Lord Aston's but he told me then this Discourse L. H. Stew. My Lord this is only a Question of Grammar how it can be construed L. Stafford My Lords I beg your pardon 't is to my little Reason a Question of Sense and it is plain to me it can have no other sense but I submit it to your Lordships whether this be not the true Construction L. H. Steward Go on my Lord with your Evidence notice will be taken of your Objection you shall see what they say to it if they do not give it an Answer it will have its weight Sir William Jones We will give that an Answer in due time L. Stafford Then next he says I talked with him at my Lord Aston's the beginning of September where he met with me at Tixal at the Gate And I said it was sad we could not say our Prayers but in private Truely my Lords I cannot say I did not say this to him but if I did say it I do not remember it or that ever I thought so much for I was so much of a contrary Opinion that I thought those of that Religion said their Prayers too openly and have chid them for it And why should I speak it to him whom I did not know what Religion or what Profession he might be of And presently after I spoke of these things he says he went to know what the Design was and then Mr. Evers told him of the Plot and yet yesterday he said he knew it sixteen years ago How can all this be true And besides it seems I could have no great power with him to persuade him for it seems he mistrusted my ability to pay and he had reason for I should hardly have parted with 500 l. in the Condition I was then in
to any one but I have no more to say to him now There is a third Witness one Turbervill I desire to ask him a Question L. H. Stew. Call Turbervill who stood up Lord Stafford I desire to know what time he came to serve my Lady Molineaux for it is in the beginning of the Information in the House of Commons that he came in the year 73. and how long he staid with her L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford if your Lordship please there was an offer made to you that those Affidavits should be produced if you desired to see them L. Stafford I think I shall have no occasion as yet it may be I may by and by But I desire to ask him this Question first whether he did not say he came in the year 73. into my Lady Mary Molineaux her Service and staid with her about three years L. H. Stew. Did he swear in the year 73. he came L. Stafford 'T is so in his Narrative in Print L. H. Stew. Do you own that Narrative in Print for true Mr. Turbervill No my Lords L. H. Stew. How can you challenge him then with a Narrative he does not own L. Stafford Then what can a man do if he must not go according to what is Printed Mr. Turbervill There is a mistake in the Printing of it there is a mistake of 73. for 72. L. Stafford I now desire that Affidavit may be produced L. H. Steward Pray let him have the benefit that was offered him of the Affidavit Mr. Turbervill Besides I declared I could not be positive to a year I own any thing else in it L. Stafford Then my Lords if I shall have fellows that will not swear to Months nor to years I beg of your Lordships to know whether these be legal Witnesses Managers The Affidavit is in the Custody of Sir William Poulteney a Member of our House Sir Will. Poulteney My Lords I have the Affidavit if you please I shall give you an account what I did upon it and Sir Thomas Stringer another Justice of Peace My Lords after that Mr. Turbervill had given his Evidence to the House of Commons Vivavoce he tendred to them this Information that I have in my hand The House of Commons after it had been read thought it might be convenient to have it sworn to before two Justices of Peace Whereupon Sir Thomas Stringer and my self withdrew into the Speakers Chamber Mr. Turbervill came to us we read over the Information to him again and after we had read it over it was signed and he swore it In this Information when we then took it he declared there that he came to my Lord Powis in the year 1673 and came into England 1676. After we had sworn him we carried this Information into the House again The next morning my Lords he came to me I being one of the Justices that had sworn him and told me that searching among his Papers the last night for a Letter which he had said he had received from my Lord Stafford sent to Diep though he could not find the Letter he looked for yet he found that the precise time that he went to live with my Lord Powis was 1672 and the precise time of his coming into England was 1675. And he desired me to acquaint the House of Commons with it that this Circumstance of time might be altered Whereupon my Lords I did acquaint the House of Commons with it how he was mistaken in that point of a Circumstance of time and that he came of his own accord and desired me to move the House in it I moved the House and they did direct we should withdraw again and take his Information again and that he should amend it he amended it and made the 73 72 and the 76 75 and then afterwards we swore him to it again de novo and this is the matter of Fact concerning the Affidavit L. H. Stew. Sir William Poultney Did Mr. Turbervill correct the mistake himself first or was it found and altered by others Sir William Poultney My Lords he came to me for I did not know any thing of it that he was mistaken but he came to me the next morning assoon as ever I came to the House before indeed I entred into the House and told me of the mistake and told me the reasons how he came to recollect himself and find out the mistake L. H. Stew. Mr. Turbervill I would ask you the Question how came you to be informed that you had mistaken your self Mr. Turbervill My Lords I 'll tell you I was searching for a Letter which I received from my Lord Stafford and missing that I found my Discharge I had from the French Army wherein I saw my mistake as to the time and that I have to produce L. H. Stew. I ask you again by the Oath you have taken did you correct it of your self or by information from any other Mr. Turbervill By the Oath I have taken I did correct it of my self and no body moved it to me Mr. Serj. Mayn It was but a Circumstance of time Sir Fran. Winn. And corrected by himself the very next morning my Lords L. Stafford He does acknowledge he did forswear himself once and did make himself an honest man the next day when he was a perjured Villain the day before And now he tells your Lordships that he was searching for a Letter that I sent to him but he cannot find it Mr. Turbervill No my Lords I thought I had it but I cannot find it L. Stafford No I 'le swear thou canst not But then he does say that he had a Discharge from the French Army Mr. Turbervill Yes 't is here my Lord. L. H. Stew. Is that the Paper of your Discharge Mr. Turbervill Yes it is 'T is worn out a little and torn but the Seal is preserved I did not know that ever I should have occasion to make use of it but my Lord Challenging me for a Coward and a Deserter of my Colours L. Stafford I say so still for I have heard so L. H. Stew. Your Honour is not in question Mr. Turbervill Mr. Turbervill The Title is a little torn and if your Lordships please I will read it which he did being in French and is rendred in English in these words THis certifieth to all to whom it shall appertain that I have given an absolute Discharge to the Sieur Turbervill a Cavalier of my Company after having served the space of six months with all Honour and Fidelity Therefore I desire those that are to be desired to treat him Civilly and let him pass and re-pass without doing him any Injury or giving him any hindrance But on the contrary to afford him all Aid and Assistance where it shall be necessary promising the like upon all occasions that shall require it In Confirmation of which I have for him signed this present Discharge and thereto put the Seal of my Arms to
you could give an account of every day Lydcot I did not think any Question of this Nature would come on the stage there is my Lords Steward can give a very good account of this by his Account Books which are all ready to be produced he can tell where my Lord was by laying out such and such moneys And 't is an hard thing to give a Testimony after so many years of a thing that we thought not would ever be a Question L. H. Steward Let us see your Notes Lydcot My Lords I will read it to your Lordships L. H. Steward When was this written Lydcot I took this out of another Book L. H. Steward When Lydcot Lately since Mr. Turbervill's Narrative came out Sir Will. Jones Oh I desire that may be observed L. Stafford If your Lordships please I desire that he may bring his Books Oh oh will not condemn me but Law and Justice I am not to be run down with Oh oh or what such impudent Villains as these say L. H. Stew. Read what you have there Lydcot From Liege we set forth to Paris January 1. 72. where we staid three weeks and arrived thence at London January 24. there we staid till May 73. and from thence we went to Liege again in June and from Liege we set forth to London in August and returned October the 3d. 73. L. H. Stew. Were you all the while between August and October in London Lydcot I am morally certain that I did not go from my Lord all that time L. H. Stew. Where were you after October Lydcot Which October if your Lordship please L. H. Stew. October 73. Lydcot At Liege for we returned to Liege at October the 3d. and then after this my Lord sent me into England I left him at Liege and from thence I set out for England and in January I returned to Liege which was the greatest part of time that I was ever absent from him L. H. Stew. And was he at Liege are you sure all that time from October to January Lydcot Yes except he fled For I sent Letters by the Foreign Post and received Letters by the Foreign Post every week And his Account-Books will speak it Sir W. Jones My Lords we desire to ask him one Question since he can give so exact an account whether my Lord Castlemain was in England 72 and how much of that year Lydcot Yes Sir W. Jones How many months of the year 72 was he in England Lydcot I read it before We arrived from Liege to London January 24. 72. and staid at London till May 73. L. H. Stew. But where was my Lord all the year 72 Lydcot Pray my Lords do you mean New stile or Old stile L. H. Steward When I speak of his being at London I mean the stile of the Countrey Sir William Jones Then under favour he speaks of the latter part of the year I desire to know whether my Lord for all the former part of the year was in England L. H. Stew. Where was my Lord in December 72. and in November before that and in all the year up backwards Lydcot My Lords I have told you the whole year L. H. Steward But where was my Lord from January 71. to January 72 Lydcot In 71. June 19. New stile we came to London and returned in September to Liege from Liege we set forth to Paris January 1. 72. and arrived at London January 24. L. H. Stew. He runs past the time Sir Will. Jones My Lords we ask him a plain Question but he does not answer it he slips over the time that we desire your Lordships to ask him about L. Stafford I beseech your Lordships that it may be made plain that there may nothing be said afterwards that it was not plain Lydcot Sir Do you propose any thing to me and I will answer it Sir Will. Jones Answer not us answer my Lords Lydcot I desire any body may peruse my Notes if they please L. H. Stew. Pray Sir answer the Question whichin very short terms is this where my Lord Castlemain was all the whole year 72. Lydcot Well my Lords I will I can but read it over again From Liege we set forth to Paris January 1. 72. L. H. Stew. Are not you a rare Fellow now Lydcot My Lords I understand it according to the stile of that Country when I am there and of this place when I am here L. H. Stew. Answer me according to our stile Lydcot This that I have written here in the Book out of which I took it hath been written ever since that time and I did not think I should er'e be called to account about it L. H. Stew. Begin January the 1st 71. Lydcot We went from Liege to Paris where we staid about a week or such a time and we arrived at London January 24. that is the Old stile and staid at London till May 8. 73. L. H. Stew. That is impossible for you ' scape a year and a half to together Lydcot My Lord was here in England in January L. H. Stew. You begin very gravely with January stylo veteri that you came from Liege and so January 24. stylo veteri you came to London Lydcot When I speak of any style I understand it according to the style of the Country L. H. Stew. But in your account what is become of all the time from January 71. to January 72. say and swear if you can where my Lord was all that time Lydcot He must be in London L. H. Stew. Can you take it upon your Oath that my Lord was in London from January 71. stylo veteri to May 73. stylo veteri Lydcot I cannot know how to count better than I have done L. Stafford Mr. Turbervill says my Lord Castlemain was in 73. at Powis-Castle I beseech your Lordships this man may be asked and that without any interruption where my Lord was that year Sir Will. Jones With your Lordships favour I must desire your Lordships to ask Mr. Turbervill whether he did say positively the year â—3 for if my Ears and my Notes do not fail me he said As he remembred and that is the reason why we ask about the year 72. Mr. Turbervill My Lords I do not say positively nor cannot which year it was Lydcot My Lords I do stand upon it that he was in London January 72. and went away May 73. L. H. Stew. What becomes of the mean time between January 71. and May 73 Lydcot My Lords I explain my self as well as I can L. H. Stew My Lord Stafford will you call any more Witnesses L. Stafford Yes my Lord. L. H. Stew. Call them then Earl of Shaftsbury My Lord High Steward I desire my Lord Stafford may be asked how many Witnesses my Lord hath more for it now grows late L. H. Steward My Lord I desire to know how many Witnesses you have more L. Stafford Three or four I can't well tell how many Lords Adjourn Adjourn
Lord. High Steward Is it your Lordships pleasure that we do Adjourn Lords Ay Ay. L. H. Steward Then this House is Adjourned into the Parliament Chamber Then the Lords returned in their former Order to their House and the Commons went back to their House Mr. Speaker resumed the Chair and a Message from the Lords was sent by Sir Timothy Baldwin and Sir Samuel Clark Mr. Speaker The Lords have sent us to acquaint this House that they have Ordered the Prisoner William Viscount Stafford to be brought again to his Tryal at the Bar in Westminster-Hall to morrow morning at Ten of the Clock The Fourth Day Friday December 3. 1680. ABout the Hour of Ten in the Morning the Lords Adjourned into Westminster-Hall and returned in their former Order into the Court there erected and Mr. Speaker having left the Chair the Commons were seated as before mentioned The Court being sat Proclamation for Silence was made and the Lieutenant of the Tower commanded to bring his Prisoner to the Bar which being done the Lord High Steward spake to the Prisoner as followeth L. H. Steward My Lord Stafford your Lordships Defence took up yesterday All the day was employed in hearing your Lordships Witnesses to impeach the Credit of the Testimony that hath been given against you Your Lordship hath excepted against Dugdale because you were not at Tixall as he says you were neither the latter end of August nor the beginning of September till the Twelfth and when you were there you never sent for him to your Chamber but your Man upon his own desire brought him and when he came there the business was to desire you to get leave that he might go to the Race and there was no opportunity of private Discourse because your Men were in the Room all the while That Dugdale hath often said he knew nothing of the Plot that he swore falsly when he said he told of the Letter about the death of Sir Edmunbury Godfrey before it was known he was killed and when he said that Hobson told him presently after the Almoner went over which was three years before Hobson came to my Lord Aston's Service Your Lordship hath likewise objected that he hath corrupted persons to swear falsly against you and others as Robinson the Upholsterer against your Lordship Morrall the Barber against Sir James Symons and Holt the Blacksmith to swear that one Moor carried away Evers Your Lordship hath endeavoured to discredit Oats by his saying he knew nothing of any other persons that were concerned in the Plot and after accusing the Queen Your Lordship hath Impeached the Credit of Turbervill by proving that you came home by Diep and not by Calice as he says you did That you had never the Gout while you were in France nor as your Page says for these seven years That my Lord Castlemain was not at my Lord Powis's in the year 73. and there you left off This I take is the Sum of what your Lordship says if I do you any wrong your Lordship will put me in mind of it L. Stafford I thank your Lordship you have done it with great Equity and Truth L. H. Stew. Then go on L. Stafford The next Witness that I call is one John Porter Who stood up L. H. Stew. What is your Name Witness John Porter L. H. Stew. What Profession are you of Porter A Butler L. H. Stew. To whom Porter To my Lord Powis L. Stafford My Lords I desire your Lordships would ask him what Mr. Turbervill said about the Plot. L. H. Stew. I will ask him all the Questions your Lordship desires I should ask him Mr. Foley We desire to know what Religion he is of L. Stafford I desire your Lordships would ask him that Question and not the Managers L. H. Stew. They will tell me their Questions my Lord and I will ask them L. Staff They ask him my Lords and not you L. H. Stew. What Religion are you of Porter A Church of England man my Lords Mr. Serj. Maynard The Popish Church of England I believe L. Stafford Pray my Lords let not this be when my Witness says he is of the Church of England they cry he is of the Popish Church of England Mr. Serj. Maynard Pray good my Lord we are silent when you ask him proper Questions and make no Remarks we do not speak it to the Court we may say what we will among our selves I hope L. Staff I may ask impertinent Questions because I do not understand so well as these Gentlemen But I pray they may not deal thus with me L. H. Stew. My Lord you shall ask what Questions you please L. Stafford Pray ask him what Mr. Turbervill said to him about his knowledge of the Plot. L. H. Stew. What did Turbervill say to you about his knowing of the Plot Porter About a year since when I served my Lord Powis as Butler there he was used to come and see me it was not at my Lords House but he sent for me to a Victualling-House L. H. Stew. That was the last year Porter Yes L. H. Stew. What time of the Year Porter It was about Twelve Months ago I cannot say positively the time L. H. Stew. Was it Winter or Summer Porter He hath been both I can't be positive which I believe he hath been there 40 times L. H. Stew. In the year 80 or 79 Porter In the year 79. L. H. Stew. What did he say Porter He came there and asked me how my Lord Powis did and said he was extremely troubled that he was in that Affliction for he did verily believe that neither he nor the rest of the Lords were in the Plot and the Witnesses that swore against him he believed were perjured and could not believe any thing of it L. H. Stew. Have you any more to say Porter Yes my Lords I told him if there were such a thing as a Plot he having been beyond Sea must certainly know of it he told me as he hoped for Salvation he knew nothing of it neither directly nor indirectly against the Kings Sacred Person nor the Subversion of the Government And he further said Although I am a little low at present and my Friends will not look upon me yet I hope God Almighty will never leave me so much as to let me swear against innocent Persons and forswear and damn my self L. H. Stew. Where was this said to you Porter At the Ship Alehouse in Lincolns Inn Fields one time another time at the Kings Head Tavern in the Strand and another time at the Golden Ball in the Strand L. H. Stew. Was any body by besides your self Porter Not at that time but there is a Gentleman in Court that can testifie that he said such things at other times L. H. Stew. What say you to this Turbervill Mr. Turbervill I say 't is all false But if your Lordships please I 'll tell you what I said once I did conceive my Lord Powis was
have said or done I own what is entred as my Oath before your Lordships and am ready to answer it but I am not bound to say what does not at all concern this business L. Stafford I say my Lords 't is entred upon your Lordships Books that he did swear at the Council he was at Madrid with Don John of Austria I would know of him whether he did so Dr. Oats My Lords I would have my Lord to propose the Question to the Court of Peers L. H. Steward Have you sworn any thing of Don John of Austria Dr. Oats My Lords I refer my self to the Council Book L. Stafford I beseech your Lordships I may have that Book L. H. Steward I believe it is in the Narrative turn to the Journal you have that mentioned there To which the Clerk turned but it could not be sound L. H. Stew. If you will not acknwledge it we must stay till the Book be brought Dr. Oats My Lords if your Lordships please I will repeat as well as I can what was said at the Council Table but I had rather the Council Book were fetched because I am upon my Oath but my Lords I always thought the Council Book is no Record upon any man L. Stafford I desire it may be produced or he own that he said so Lord High Steward What you said at the Council Table you said upon your Oath and 't is lawful to lay it before you Dr. Oats But if your Lordships please as to what was said at the Council Table if my Lord will bring any one Viva voce to swear what was said by me there that will make something L. H. Stew. That may be material as he says That your Lordship should bring some body to swear he said so for the Clerks may mistake him L. Stafford If your Lordships please that the Book may be sent for I will make it out Sir W. Jones It could not be read if it were here L. H. Stew. If the Clerks will swear what is in the Books it may Sir W. Jones But whether the Clerks will take that upon them or no may be Question Lord. High Steward Go on in the mean time L. Stafford I cannot conclude with him without it L. H. Stew. Where is the Council Book For the Clerks inform me 't is not in their custody but the Gentlemen of the House of Commons have been attended with the Book and other Papers relating to it L. Stafford In the mean time give me leave to say something though perhaps it may be nothing to the purpose Mr. Yalden was just now going down ' and Turbervill threatned to lay him by the Heels L. H. Stew. If he did so 't is a Misdemeanor and he must be punished for it Call Yalden and Turbervill L. H. Stew. Mr. Turbervill Have you dared or threatned Yalden the Witness to lay him by the Heels Mr. Turbervill I did not speak any such words to him Mr. Dugdale was just by me all the while L. Stafford I tell you but what he said and what I can prove by Witness pray call Yalden Mr. Turbervill This Gentleman Captain Scudamore stood by me too L. H. Stew. But I ask you upon this Misdemeanor Whether you threatned Yalden to lay him by the Heels Mr. Turbervill My Lords I stood by Mr. Dugdale till he was gone down L. H. Stew. How could he lay him by the Heels By what Authority could he do it Mr. Turbervill I did not speak such a word upon my Oath L. Stafford Ask Yalden I am told he did L. H. Stew. I am afraid you are misinformed my Lord for he could not do it 't is not in his power L. Stafford He threatned he would Goal him but if you won't Examine it I submit to you Dr. Oats My Lords Yalden it seems calls us a Pack of Rogues that give Evidence for the King and here are Witnesses of it Yalden stood up L. H. Stew. Yalden were you threatned by Turbervill Yalden Yes I will tell you how I was threatned my Lords Mr. Turbervill pulls me by the Arm when I had given my Evidence and asked me if I knew him and bid me take care L. H. Stew. Do you call that a threatning Yalden My Lords I did not make this Complaint nor did I desire it should be made but speaking this in the Room some body carried it to my Lord. Mr. Turbervill My Lords now he hath done let me speak I pray Mr. Yalden did say in the hearing of Captain Scudamore who is here he had got a great many Clients here but you says he have got nothing but a pack of Rogues Yalden That is a mistake L. H. Stew. This is fine work But Gentlemen will you call Captain Scudamore now or will you stay till afterwards Sir Fr. Winn. My Lords Mr. Turbervill desires it may be now and we do also desire it upon this occasion Captain Scudamore is a man of Quality and will give you a true account We did not think to have interposed in my Lord Stafford's Evidence but he having impeached our Witnesses of a Misdemeanor we conceive it fittest to clear it at this time Then Captain Scudamore was sworn L. H. Stew. Mr. Scudamore what are you called for Can you say any thing that happened between Turbervill and Yalden Captain Scudamore The Gentleman that is here that said he was one of Grays-Inn I do not know his Name L. H. Stew. 'T is Yalden Captain Scudamore I heard a Gentleman ask him if he came there to get Clients And he said I know nothing among you but Roguery L. Stafford Whereabouts did this Gentleman stand Captain Scudamore In the Passage Mr. Turbervill Here are five or six more that heard him say so Yalden That which I said was this That I might come hither for Practice but I did not come hither for Roguery L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford until such time as the Council-Book comes which may be sent for Will your Lordship proceed to something else L. Wharton My Lord Steward I humbly conceive That it was resolved in the Lords House the day before yesterday that no Book should be sent for out of the Court and it was done upon the Judgment of all the Judges of England Yalden My Lords They will not permit me to go down L. H. Stew. There is a strange Quarrel between you Witnesses and an Affectation of complaining one of another Let Mr. Yalden go down Sir W. Jones My Lords I would only acquaint your Lordships that the Council-Book that my Lord does make mention of was in the hands of our Clerk we did not know of it when it was first discoursed of but now understanding that here it is we desire it may be delivered in to any body that hath occasion for it L. H. Stew. Hand it in Which was done L. H. Stew. What day does your Lordship speak of L. Stafford The 28 29 or 30. of September Clerk Then this is not the Book
for this is for January L. Stafford My Lords Is it your Lordships pleasure I may have Pen Ink and Paper allowed me L. H. Stew. Yes yes give my Lord Pen Ink and Paper which they did Then the Lord High Steward looked upon the Council-Book L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford In this Council-Book as far as we can inform our selves by the Table of it there is nothing at all of it it must be the Council-Book in September Sir Will. Jones We have no other Book but that L. H. Stew. Why did not your Lordship send all this while to the Council Table for any thing that was material but give the Court the trouble to be interrupted upon your Inquiries L. Stafford My Lords you may do what you please I did not know any such thing would have needed to be urged I have proof enough without the book The use I should have made of it is this I do appeal to some of your Lordships you that were of the Council I do appeal to which of you that were by whether Dr. Oats did not say at the Council Table he had been at Madrid he went from Vallidolid to Madrid and there did preach something at the Jesuits Colledge at Madrid what it was I cannot tell when Don John of Austria was by L. H. Stew. If any of my Lords of the Council do remember it they may Testifie L. Privy Seal My Lords I shall tell your Lordships as much as I remember of it Dr. Oats was examined about his Journey into Spain and amongst the rest some Question hapned to be asked whether he had seen Don John of Austria he said he had seen one that was called so that he knew him not but he was pointed to one that they said was Don John of Austria that I heard L. Stafford My Lord I thank you L. H. Stew. You hear what is said Dr. Oats Dr. Oats My Lords suppose I did say so I think there is no crime in it L. H. Stew. 'T is not objected against you as a Crime but as a mistake in your Oath there was no such man there L. Privy Seal My Lords I would not be misunderstood in the Evidence I give I did not say that Oats said he knew him but that he knew him not and only was told such a man was he Dr. Oats It was made apparent that I did not know him because I mistook his Person L. Stafford I do stand upon it That upon his Oath and I have reason to believe he did so because I am so informed he said it was Don John of Austria L. Privy Seal No my Lord Dr. Oats said he was a tall lean man and it seems he was a little fat man L. Stafford If any man would shew him a man to counterfeit Don John of Austria he would not shew him a lean man for a fat L. H. Stew. Go on my Lord. L. Stafford I shall now put your Lordships in mind that he swore but my Memory is bad and my Eyes much worse that he saw me receive a Commission and it seems he saw what it was too Now it is strange that amongst so many Commissions that were given none should be extant I desire him to shew the Commission he saw me receive L. H. Stew. Would your Lordship have him shew the Commissions which he saw you receive L. Stafford I do not believe he can shew my Commission for I am sure there was none I desire him to shew any one of my Letters he talks of He says he came over feigning to be a Papist when he was not and that they shewed him presently all my Letters and now he is come to discover the Plot I ask him did he keep any one of my Letters L. H. Stew. Have you any of any Lords Letters by you Dr. Oats My Lords I could not keep any Letters sent to the Fathers I had a fight of them but none of them to my particular use L. Stafford Does he know my Hand did he ever see it in his life Dr. Oats Yes I do know his Hand I believe I have a Letter of my Lords by me but not about me 't is of no Concern I 'm sure I have one of my Lord Arundel's L. Stafford But he says he hath a Letter of mine let him shew one of my Letters Dr. Oats He writes a mixt Hand I think 't is but an indifferent one L. Stafford So many Comissions and so many Letters as are spoken of and not one to be found or produced L. H. Stew. Can you send for the Letter Dr. Oats My Lords I am not certain of that L. H. Stew. Where did you see my Lord write Dr. Oats At Fenwick's my Lords when I carried the Letter to the Post L. Stafford How often hath he seen me at Fenwick's Dr. Oats My Lords not above twice if twice L. Stafford My Lords I cannot say I did not see him there but I can say I don't know the place nor that ever I was there Dr. Oats My Lords will his Lordship say I never saw him at Dr. Perrots L. Stafford Who Dr. Oats My Lord Stafford L. Stafford Where did he live Dr. Oats In Dukes-street going into Lincolns-Inn-Fields he is the Arch-Priest of the Seculars that is the Principal of the Secular Clergy and he hath the care of the English Colledge for the sending of Scholars to the Colledge Mr. Fisher my Lord Stafford and Dr. Perrot were together discoursing about sending his Son thither and Mr. Fisher would have one sent with him that was Dr. Perrot's Man L. Stafford I do profess before God I was never at Dr. Perrot's in my whole life L. H. Stew. Did not you send your Son abroad L. Stafford No my Lords not I. L. H. Stew. Had he a Servant at Dr. Perrot's to attend him Dr. Oats No my Lords not that I know of I cannot say he had not L. Stafford I tell you positively as I am a Christian my Lords I did not send my Son to Lisbon he went against my Will I told him I had an aversion to it but said I will not lay my Commands on you not to go but he would go I could not help it I told him Do you mean to go into the Colledge he would not tell me L. H. Stew. Pray my Lord does not your Lordship know Dr. Perrot Lord Stafford Yes my Lords I do L. Stafford Were you never with him at his House in Duke-street L. Stafford No my Lords never in my life nor saw that Fisher he speaks of ever in my life Dr. Oats My Lords 't is against the Rules of that House that any be admitted of that House if their Parents be Catholicks without consent of their Parents L. Stafford If he be admitted there I know it not Dr. Oats He lives there L. Stafford But I protest before God my Lords I asked him that Question Will you go to the Colledge No says he I will go to lie at the Bishops House but
Goaler then I told him if it were not for his Coat and I were out of this place I would break his head Then he called me Raskal L. Stafford My Lord Steward I desire to know whether this be a Witness fit to be believed against any man L. H. Stew. Mr. Oats this does not become you 't is very ill manners in you Dr. Oats My Lords the Lieutenant of the Tower hath the Law and I refer my self to the Law if I have done him any wrong Mr. Serj. Maynard It did not become Mr. Lieutenant of the Tower to tell him he would break his head Mr. Lieutenant Why if any man out of the Court or in another Habit should tell me I was a Goaler I think I should not deserve to be the Kings Lieutenant if I did not break his Head Mr. Serj. Maynard Pray tell the Court so But yet under favour you ought not to threaten him for a word to break his head L. Stafford My Lords I do say this to your Lordships a man that hath dissembled with God Almighty in so high a nature as he ackowledges himself to have done ought to be a man of a very severe life afterwards and not so passionate and cholerick as it seems this fellow is L. H. Stew. Will your Lordship proceed L. Stafford For this man truly I shall say no more I think I have said enough to make him appear a person not fit to be believed I would only ask Stephen Dugdale a Question if you please 't is but a little I won't hold you long I only ask and if he deny it I 'le prove it whether he was not a Prisoner at Stafford for Debt when he made the first Affidavit L. H. Stew. Were you a Prisoner for Debt at Stafford when you made your first Affidavit Mr. Dugdale In the Serjeants hands I was my Lords L. Staff For a very great Debt my Lords some hundreds of pounds and he was a fellow not worth a Groat And my Lords Dr. Oats says I offered him half a Crown and he refused it I call Ellen Rigby to prove he was so poor he begg'd for six pence Dr. Oats I will save my Lord the trouble of proving any such thing My Lord Stafford says I was a poor man and had not six pence in my pocket I can make it appear to the House of Lords that sometime since I came in upon this Discovery I have not had two pence in my pocket and sometimes I have not had six pence but a mans Pȯverty is no objection against his Honesty L. Stafford Where is Ellen Rigby to prove whether she did not give him six pence But then my Lords pray ask him whether he did not swear at a former Tryal he had spent six or seven hundred pounds more than he got L. H. Stew. Did you say at a former Tryal you were five or six hundred pound out of purse Dr. Oats My Lords I will satisfie this House what I said what folks write after me I am not to justifie But my Lords I had a Friend of mine presented me with 100 l. I name not his Name but if that be questioned he is a Peer of this House and will justifie it I had 100 l. for my Narrative I had 100 l. for taking some Jesuits which is 300 l. I had for some other Copies that I printed a matter of 50 or 60 l. And now I can make it appear that as to those Sums which I received in gross I have spent them all and more in this Service for I have none of the money now by me L. Stafford He makes out but 350 l. and he swore he was out 700 l. but he does not swear one true tittle nor is any whit to be believed Dr. Oats If you expect I should prove it I can prove it now Managers Be quiet Dr. Oats we will do you right anon L. Stafford My Lords I do not know for the present that I have any thing else to trouble your Lordships with I remember these Gentlemen when I asked them if they had any more Evidence to give in said No unless I should give them some occasion and now I desire your Lordships if they bring any new Evidence that I may have time to answer it L. H. Stew. God forbid but you should have liberty to answer any Objection Sir W. Jones My Lords before we go about to sum up our Evidence we shall have occasion to call some Witnesses and that will be to fortifie what our Witnesses have said to discover what kind of Witnesses have been made use of against them and to falsifie what my Lords Witnesses have said in some particulars These will be the three Heads for which we desire to call Witnesses And because my Lords we will not trouble you with making one intire Narration of what they can say or to what purpose we call them before they come we desire the favour that we may acquaint your Lordships with it still as we call them for that we think will be the way more clearly to be understood My Lords we shall begin to make good by other Witnesses some things said by Mr. Dugdale for he was our first Witness and therefore in order of time we will first begin with him My Lords the Prisoner at the Bar was pleased to object L. Stafford My Lords I would not interrupt him but I would ask whether there were more than two heads that he proceeds upon to fortifie their own Evidence and to falsifie mine Sir W. Jones My Lords I think we may comprehend all under those two heads But my Lords you observe one great matter my Lord did insist upon yesterday was this That he it is true hath seen Mr. Dugdale at my Lord Aston's though by the way I must say this my Lord at the first did not seem to know him L. Stafford I did not know him in his Peraiwig L. H. Stew. Do not interrupt them my Lord for they must have the same liberty that you had to go on without interruption Sir Will. Jones We must have the same freedom my Lord had I will do his Lordship that right he did afterwards recollect himself and say His Perriwig had made that alteration in him that he did not know him But my Lord was also pleased to say yesterday That though he did know him yet he looked upon him as so mean and inconsiderable a fellow that he did purposely avoid all discourse with him and that sometimes when he was a dry at my Lord Aston's he would not speak to him to help him nor to call one to help him to drink My Lord was pleased yesterday also to deny that ever he had any Converse with him but only that one time when indeed Mr. Dugdale did desire to make use of my Lord that by his interposition he might have leave to go to the Foot-Race My Lords your Lordships very well perceive we are now going about to prove a
with my Lord. L. Stafford Did he hear us discourse or any word we said Mr. Ansell No I did not Sir Will. Jones My Lords if you please before Ansell go away we would ask him a Question to another point and that is For what reason Dugdale was secured whether he went away for Debt or no L. H. Stew. Do you know wherefore Dugdale was secured or why he went from my Lord Astons Mr. Ansell I can't tell why he went away whether for fear of the Plot or no I can't tell Sir VV. Jones What discourse was between you and Dugdale about it Mr. Ansell Where There was a discourse at Stafford when he was there Sir VV. Jones But before he went away Mr. Ansell I came to my Lord Aston's one day and told Mr. Dugdale I heard say he was concerned in the Plot for I told him I was amongst some people and they say you are concerned in the Plot. And this was about a fortnight after the News was hot in our Country L. H. Stew. What said he Mr. Ansell He laughed at it and said God blast him if he knew any thing of it L. Stafford So he denied it then Sir VV. Jones Pray Sir at that time did he say he knew any thing about my Lord Aston and why my Lord Aston did use him ill Then my Lord Stafford objected Mr. Dugdale was too near the VVitness and desired he might go down and it was ordered accordingly Sir Fr. VVin. My Lords we would ask this man what does he know of Dugdale's concealing himself after he had heard of the discourse about the Plot. Mr. Ansell I know not that my Lords he was fearful of coming in company what his discourse was I do not know Sir VV. Jones My Lords now if it please your Lordships we will go to another particular Yor Lordships will please to remember that yesterday there were two Witnesses called by my Lord Stafford that is Sambidge and Philips Sambidge was the old Gentleman that was deaf and a little passionate too because he was once summoned to Litchfield Court Mr. Philips was the Minister of Tixal And both these did testifie That whereas Mr. Dugdale had sworn at a former Tryal that he did give notice before them of the death of Sir Edmunbury Godfrey upon Monday which as I take it was the 14. of October there was no such notice given in their presence Mr. Dugdale did affirm they were by and that he gave notice before them others This was made use of by my Lord to invalidate the Testimony of Mr. Dugdale that he should go and affirm at a former Tryal that he did give notice of the death of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey within two days after he was killed before any one knew of it and Dugdale must needs know it from the Jesuits and both of these Gentlemen being now in Court do deny that they heard of it at that time My Lords we shall prove to you here that he did give notice of it at that time and that they were both present For Mr. Sambidge it is not so strange he should not observe it he was very deaf and he could hardly hear yesterday and as he was deaf so he was very passionate As for Mr. Philips I cannot say that as to him but perhaps he cannot at that distance of time remember but we will prove by undeniable Witnesses that notice was given that Munday and that these persons were by when it was given Sir Fran. Winn. This Witness we use to another purpose besides this but we will ask him only to this now L. Stafford I desire the Witnesses may stand by themselves L. H. Stew. Let them take care that there be but one Witness at a time and that no body approach them while they are giving their Testimony Sir Will. Jones We did not make the like desire as to my Lords Witnesses L. Stafford In troth you might with all my heart if you would Sir Will. Jones It may be so but we did not fear them so much Swear William Goldsmith which was done Sir Will. Jones I would begin with James Ansell who appeared and stood up again Sir Fr. Winn. If your Lordships please we would ask him what he knows of a discourse about the Justice of Peace's death to tell the time and what it was that was said We only ask general Questions L. H. Stew. What discourse did you hear of the murder of a Justice of Peace and when Mr. Ansell My Lords I heard it at Tixal L. H. Stew. When did you hear it first Mr. Ansell The 14. of October L. H. Steward Who did you hear it from Mr. Ansell From Mr. Dugdale L. H. Stew. The Letter was dated the 12. Where did you hear of it Mr. Ansell It was at one Elds House an Alehouse in Tixal L. H. Steward Where Mr. Ansell At an Alehouse hard by my Lords L. H. Stew. Who was by Mr. Ansell When that was spoken there was I and VVilliam Hanson and Mr. Sambidge and Mr. Philips L. H. Stew. Did Dugdale speak with them at that time Mr. Ansell Yes he was with them at that time but he spoke with me at the Parlor for he sent for me into the Parlor L. H. Stew. Then at the same time he spake it to you and they were in the House Mr. Ansell Yes he came from them to me into the Parlor and went to them again Sir Will. Jones My Lords I hear him speak to the day of the Month if you please to ask him if he can tell what day of the Week it was Mr. Ansell It was on a Munday L. H. Stew. That is right the Letter was dated on Saturday the 12. of October Sir Fr. Winn. I would ask him whether afterwards he came into the Room where Mr. Philips the Parson was Mr. Ansell Yes Sir Fr. Winn. Was there any discouse after you came in about the Death of â— Justice of Peace Mr. Ansell I cannot tell that L. H. Stew. Will you please to ask him any thing my Lord L. Staff Indeed my Lords he says nothing concerning me therefore I say only this I desire to know if he can tell what time of day it was Mr. Ansell It was the Forenoon Sir W. Jones Then call Will. Hanson again who appeared Sir Fr. Winn. We call him to the same Question Do you declare to my Lords what you know of Mr. Dugdale's acquainting you with the Death of a Justice of Peace and when it was Mr. Hanson I heard Mr. Dugdale say at Old Elds house at Tixal There was a Justice of Peace murdered that lived at Westminster L. H. Steward When did he tell you so Mr. Hanson The day that I went to run the Race the 14. of October Sir Fr. Winn. Can you remember what day of the week it was Mr. Hanson It was Munday L. H. Steward Was it the Forenoon or Afternoon Mr. Hanson The Forenoon L. H. Stew. What Company was in the house when he
told you of it M. Hanson Old Mr. Sambidge and Mr. Philips the Parson of Tixall L. H. Steward Were they in the House at that time Mr. Hanson Yes L. H. Stew. Were they by when the discourse was Mr. Hanson Mr Sambidge was going to drink a Bottle of Ale as he said at my Lords Bowling Green and for a while he sits down and presently Mr. Philips comes in and sits down and Mr. Dugdale came out of the Parlour into the Room where we were come said I What News said he They say there is a Justice of Peace murdered at Westminster Sir Fr. Winn. Was Philips in the Room Mr. Hanson Yes he hath forgot it but he was there L. H. Steward Did Philips hear it Mr. Hanson He might have heard it if he would L. H. Stew. Had you any discourse with Philips about this since Mr. Hanson No my Lords Sir Fr. VVinn He is positive both as to the day of the month and as to the week and that both of them were present Sir W. Jones My Lords â—e shall prove to you now That the Post which comes out of London on Saturday comes to this place on Munday morning and those which goes out of Tuesday come there on Thursday morning and the Post which goes out of London on Thursday comes to this place on Saturday morning L. Stafford He says the Post comes such and such days I own it and in the morning too Sir Will. Jones Then I go on my Lords to another point which will be a farther Confirmation of the matter For my Lords we will prove to you and that by men of Quality that the noise of the Murder was in that Countrey the Wednesday and Thursday following the Murder Your Lordships please to observe Sir Edmundbury Godfrey was killed the Twelfth of October he was found the Thursday following which was as I take it the 16. or 17. of October We will prove now that the noise and knowledge of the Murder was in the Countrey about Tixal before he was found here near London Now we only bring this as a Confirmation of this matter that it was revealed at the Alehouse and so it went about the Countrey And for this we call Edward Birch Esquire and John Turton Esquire Sir Fr. VVinn Before we examine them I would state the time Sir Edmundbury Godfrey was missing on Saturday which was the 12. of October his Murder was not discovered till Thursday We call these persons to a double purpose the one to fortifie what our Witnesses have said and the other to shew that this man was dispatched by these Mens Confederates because they knew it so soon which could not have been but that they were in the Conspiracy themselves L. Staff I desire only that he may say whether he means me among the rest Sir Fr. Winn. My Lord I will do you no wrong I speak of those at Tixal Then Mr. Birch was sworn L. H. Steward When did you hear of the death of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey Mr. Birch Mr. Birch My Lords I did not hear any thing of the death of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey till the Saturday-Post but I presume that which these Gentlemen call me for is this I did hear before Thursday I think Tuesday was the first day that there was a Justice of Peace of Middlesex killed and it was thought the Papists murdered him and this on Tuesday and Wednesday was all over the Countrey that is Tuesday after his death for I 'll tell your Lordships how I came to take notice of it for hearing such a report in the Countrey I did not so much take notice of it but being at the Kings Bench Bar at the Tryal of Green Berry and Hill for the Murder of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey I found upon the Evidence that the Body was not found till the Thursday after he was killed that made me recollect my self as to what I had heard in the Countrey and as I stood at the Bar I told several Gentlemen that I did perfectly remember before Thursday it was discoursed of in the Countrey by several Gentlemen where I lived Sir Will. Jones Call John Turton Esquire Sir Fr. Winn. Some of my Lords here I perceive desire he should be asked a more particular Question L. H. Steward I desire to ask him this You heard of it you say on Tuesday that a Justice of Peace of Middlesex was killed I desire to know who you heard it from Mr. Birch Truly my Lords I can't tell For I 'll tell your Lordships I have some certain days that I constantly appoint to be at home in when people come about business to me Among these people several came that asked me what news I had from London I told them I had received a Letter or two by the Post and I shewed them those Letters there was little or nothing in them Thereupon they asked me if I did not hear of a Justice of Middlesex that was killed No said I. How come you to hear it says one I come through Cank which is within half a mile of mine own house and as I came through there came a person from Heywood that said 't is all the news about Tixal and Heywood and that part of the Countrey And this was said to me in my own House Sir Fr. Winn. How far is Heywood from Tixal Mr. Birch About a mile Sir Fr. Winn. Now my Lords I would ask Mr. Turton to the fame business Mr. Turton was sworn L. H. Stew. Mr. Turton pray hear When did you first hear in Staffordshire of the death of a Justice of Peace of Middlesex Mr. Turton My Lords there are two Races in that Countrey at a place near Lichfield and they are about the middle of October the one that year was the 15. the other the 18. the one the Tuesday and the other the Friday I was at both of them and one of the days which I cannot be positive in there was one Mr. Whitehall a Justice of Peace in Staffordshire called me from the company and desired to speak with me by my self Said he Do you hear any news No said I. Do you hear nothing said he of a Justice of Peace that is murdered I then had not heard of Sir Edmundbury Godfreys being missing No says he don't you hear he is murdered Do you know him Yes said I how do you hear it says he 't is a report about us but I did not then believe it but the next Post-day which was Munday I did hear it it was either Tuesday or Friday one of those days Sir Will. Jones If it were either one or 'tother 't is as strange and the Evidence as strong for his Body was not found till Thursday Sir Fr. VVin. And will your Lordships please to observe that by that time the report had got the name of Godfrey too when at that same time we in London did not know what was become of him Mr. Turton He asked me if I knew Sir Edmundbury
Godfrey said he I hear he was an active Justice of the Peace against the Papists and he made this inference We had need have a care what we do for we shall be all sacrificed Sir Will. Jones My Lords will your Lordships be pleased to observe that yesterday there was some Witnesses called to disparage Mr. Dugdale And the first man as I can remember was a very substantial Gentleman called Mr. Robinson I think he was not able to give an account of his Employment but he was a Gentleman that lived upon his Money I remember those were his words My Lords we shall call without telling you what they will say some Witnesses to prove the Condition of this Gentleman what Reputation he is of and what is his Conversation And we first call my Lady Gerard. L. Stafford My Lords pray give me leave to say one word but 't is no great matter 't is not worth the speaking L. H. Stew. What can you say my Lord L. Stafford It was only a thought of my own not worth troubling your Lordships with Then the Lady Gerard appeared and was sworn L. H. Stew. Does your Ladyship know one William Robinson Lady Gerard. No my Lords Sir W. Jones He hath several Names we desire he may be called L. H. Steward Call Robinson the Upholsterer He was called but appeared not Sir W. Jones I perceive we mistake one Lady for another We desire Mr. Booth a Member of the House of Commons may be Sworn VVhich was done in his place L. H. Steward My Lord Stafford send for Robinson your Witness L. Stafford I believe he is here but if he be not one that belongs to me I have sent to see for him whether he be a good or a bad Witness I do not know personally Sir VV. Jones Mr. Booth knows him very well he saw him yesterday and so we may venture to ask him the Question L. H. Steward Did you see Robinson the Witness yesterday Mr. Booth Yes my Lords I did L. H. Stew. Do you know him Mr. Booth My Lords I do know him very well though I have not seen him often for indeed my Lords he behaved himself so the first time that I saw him that I believe I shall never forget him My Lords I am better acquainted with his Character than his Person though I know the man very well and truly the first time that ever I was in his company he gave me no incouragement ever to desire it again for if you please I 'le tell you how I came to know him He told your Lordships that he came into Cheshire at a Cocking it was at that time that I saw him for upon the Sunday after the Cocking I was invited to a Neighbours about two miles from home We were set down to Dinner and we had not sat long but this man comes into the Room where we were there was an empty place at the lower end of the Table and he sits him down and began a discourse to ridicule the Lords day in such a manner as I never heard the like And the rest of his discourse was full of a great deal of Contempt of God Almighty and all that was sacred All his discourse at Dinner was very prophane It was not in mine own House and because it was not taken notice of by the Master of the House and he coming under the protection of a young Gentleman I did not what else I should for I should have made him hold his tongue or have used it to better purpose The whole of his discourse was so Atheistical and prophane that I never heard the like in my life When dinner was done he used a great many inticements to draw the Company into play by asking what would they say if they should see such and such things to be done and at length he pulls out a great many Dice out of his pocket and behaves himself in that manner as people do that would draw in others to play and they that had better skill in it than I said that they were all false When I saw this I desired him to leave our Room or to forbear for said I if this be the entertaintment of the day I must leave the Company then they commanded him to desist This is all that I do know of my own knowledge But I shall acquaint you what I believe for I have heard it from very considerable persons whom I dare credit for the man run much in my mind because I never saw so ill a man in my life Coming home I was speaking to some of my Family says I Yonder I met with the strangest fellow that I ever saw in my days he is fitter to be hanged than any thing else Oh Sir said they there is such a fellow hath cheated I know not how many at the Town where the Cocking was The next day I think it was or shortly after I had occasion to go to that Town and many people came and complained to me of his Cheats to a very great degree They asked me what they should do said I you have nothing to do but indite him for a Cheat. Why said they will you take no course with him Said I What course can I take I am turned out of the Commission of the Peace else I know enough to bind him to the good behaviour After this I had occasion to go into Lancashire and there I found he was better known than trusted There were very loud Complains against him and some would have given Twenty pound to meet with him I heard afterwards he went into Staffordshire and he changed his Name where ever he went but he soon discovered himself and all thereabouts he goes for a notorious Cheat. This is all I can say of him L. Stafford My Lords Be pleased to give me leave to say one word I assure you if I had thought this man had been such a fellow as now he proves I would not have brought him before you I never knew what he was in my life nor heard of his Name till Saturday last L. H. Stew. It may be so my Lord. But your Lordship must take notice that this is the man that gave the most important Evidence that Dugdale should corrupt him to swear against you for money L. Stafford Give me leave to observe upon that my Lords That if Dugdale knew him to be a cheating fellow he might think him the liker to take money to forfwear himself Sir Will Jones My Lords we shall not reply now but observe anon how this cheating fellow comes to swear for my Lord at this time But we desire an Honourable Peer of this House may give some account of him and that is the Noble Lord the Earl of Maclesfeld I think he may be known to your Lordships Then the Earl of Maclesfeld stood up L. H. Stew. Pardon me my good Lord my Lord must be sworn E. of Maclesfeld Before I am sworn I would know of your Lordships
H. Stew. What is your Name VVitness VVilliam Southall Mr. Foley Give my Lords an account how long you have known Dugdale and what you know of him Mr. Southall My Lords I have known Mr. Stephen Dugdale about eight years Mr. Foley How hath he behaved himself What Reputation hath he born Mr. Southall Truly he hath always had a good repute not only with my Lords Tenants but also with the Workmen and those people that had dependance on the Family and truly I never heard any ill report of him but only what is spoken of now of late Sir Fr. VVinn Were you very well acquainted with him Mr. Southall Yes but never had any business with him Several discourses I have had with him about the Popish Religion Sir John Trevor My Lords I only observe this This Gentleman is Coroner of the County and hath a general knowledge of the County and must know most men there Sir Fran. VVinnington You are Coroner of the County of Stafford Sir I think Mr. Southall Yes I am one of them Mr. Foley What was he in my Lords House Mr. Southall Bailiff and a kind of Governour providing meat and paying Workmen most of the things of the Family went through his hands Sir Fran. Winn. My Lords This Gentleman is a Coroner of the County and can speak materially to other particulars besides this of Dugdale's Reputation for he was a person who was present when he made his first discovery of this Plot and was very instrumental in prevailing with him to do it He will give your Lordships an account of the whole business and I would rather he himself should relate all the progress of it than take upon me to recite any of the passages Mr. Southall There was the latter end of November 78. a Report that Mr. Dugdale was gone away from my Lord Aston's suddenly and strangely and it was the common report in the Country that he was in the Plot and was fled for it In the beginning of December I went through a Town called Great Heywood a Mile and a half from Tixal where my Lord Aston and Mr. Dugdale dwelt I called at Mr. Thomas Whitby's House the Gentleman that was up here lately and he was telling me Dugdale was come again and apprehended by the Watch at Heywood upon suspicion He told me further he would make no confession of the Plot though he had been under Examination before Sir VValter Bagott Mr. Kinnersley and I think he said Sir Thomas VVhitgrave But he told me divers passages by which we both suspected he might be concerned and know of the Plot. We thought so from the various reports and rumors we had heard in the Country and from those great grounds of suspicion that were given us As I returned from Heywood I resolved I would speak with Dugdale the first opportunity for I had a strong perswasion I could prevail with him to make a discovery of the Plot but before I did speak with him there was one Goldsmith my Kinsman had some difference fallen out between him and Mr. Ansell and Mr. Dugdale touching a Deed the deciding of which they had referred to Mr. Dugdale And he desired me to go to Mr. Dugdale to Stafford with him I was very glad of the opportunity Ansel was to bring one Hanson Mr. Goldsmith was to bring me and Mr. Dugdale was to bring one Mr. Gerrard that was concerned in the Premortgage that we might all have discourse together I promised to meet them at the time appointed and accordingly the 23 th of December two days before Christmas-day I came to the place in Stafford where Dugdale was about Ten a Clock in the Morning where they met according to their promise We had not been in the House longer than a quarter of an hour but the Kings business which I thought was a business of greater weight than any particular business did stick much upon me and I resolved before I spoke to the particular business about which we all met I would first speak to Mr. Dugdale to put that in execution which I had resolved After a short space of time I desired Mr. Dugdale that I might speak with him in a Chamber privately between him and me he told me if I would go into the next Chamber to his he would come to me Accordingly I went and staid a short space of time and Mr. Dugdale came to me I desired him to make the Door to which he did and I began thus with him Mr. Dugdale â—â—id I for some Years last past since I came to be acquainted with you I have always had a good esteem of you and you a good report in the Country where you live and now there is an opportunity put into your hands to serve his Majesty and his Protestant Subjects if as an honest man ought you will discharge your Duty Mr. Dugdale replyed Sir what do you mean Why said I I mean this in a few words Here is a Plot discovered in London and if it be in London I conceive it hath been in part acted at Tixal and if there of necessity you having such a Government and Rule over that House it is impossible but you must know it He looked upon me very earnestly and gave me a smile but answered me not I replied to him again thus said I There is a natural Allegiance which every Subject owes to his Soveraign and by that it is required that if any Subjects know of any Plot or any Conspiracy against his Person and Government they ought in Conscience to discover it therefore Mr. Dugdale said I discharge a good Conscience and tell what you know for it is commonly suspected you are concerned in the Plot. He answered I have taken the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy When and where said I Before his Majesties Justices of the Peace at Stafford said he Then said I there is not only that natural Allegiance which every Subject owes to his Prince but the Oath of Almighty God lies upon your Conscience therefore discharge a good Conscience and tell your knowledge He stood pausing a little while and by and by said he If I should make any discovery how should I be secured of my Life You need not Question that said I nor his Majesties Gracious Pardon which he hath promised in his Proclamation Have you seen the Proclamation Yes said he Said I you have but a short time a day or two to discover in for this is the 23 th and as I do conceive you ought to discover before the 25 th he stood pausing a while about the time said I you need not question his Majesties Gracious Promise and to incourage you thereto there is not only an assurance of Pardon but a promise of Reward of Two hundred pounds Said he if I do discover any thing of my knowledge I matter not nor desire I don't know which it was his Majesties Money so I may be secured of my Life Upon this my Lords said I
Sir you need not question his Majesties Gracious Promise my Life for yours if you have not his Pardon but I will take special care about it for I will send up a Letter to London directed to some of the Lords which I accordingly did and I will also speak to Captain Lane who is a worthy Gentleman to interpose in it too Then said he I will make a discovery of the Plot. Then my Lords he told me first some particular passages relating to this Lord at the Bar and also concerning Mr. Evers and Mr Peters now in Custody and some other particulars I wished him that he would speak no more at that time And when I parted with him forthwith I consulted with my self what I ought to do in point of Law I knew I must discover that a further discovery might be made of what had passed between us Then I went to Mr. Freek who was either Mayor or Justice of Peace in Stafford and told him he must come with me to Serjeant Parry's He asked me what to do I told him when he came he should know he accordingly came and took short Notes of a further Discovery and Mr. Freek he certified it up to Mr. Chetwyn who was then at London Upon the day following the 24 th I rose and went to one Mr. Vernon one of His Majesties Justices of the Peace and told him what had happened and he sent for Captain Lane another of His Majesties Justices of the Peace and they took an Examination of him I have done my Lord with reference to his Discovery and the time L. H. Steward Do you remember what he mentioned of my Lord Stafford what he said of him Mr. Southall Truly my Lords I can only tell what he said at the first Examination he told me the first time my Lord Stafford spoke with him was at Tixal-Hall nigh to the Gate-House betwixt the Gate and the Hall My Lord was going into the Hall and my Lord Stafford told him it was a very hard thing or to that purpose that they could not say their Prayes but in private and after told him the same day or night t'one that they had some work to do and he might or must be instrumental in it This was the effect of what he told me passed the first time Another time I think he told me he was to have five hundred pounds to kill the King Lord High Steward When did he tell you so Mr. Southall Not till Captain Lane examined him which was the second time he was examined which was about the 26 th L. H. Stew. Did he swear that before Vernon and Lane Mr. Southall Yes he did I could give your Lordships a Breviate of what he swore then L. Stafford I desire he may give that Breviate Mr. Southall I took some Notes of what he swore then L. H. Stew. Have you them by you or about you Mr. Southall Yes my Lords I have L. H. Stew. Produce them Mr. Southall I took this upon some Paper I had in my Pocket and is the substance of what he swore Which he delivered to the Clerk Clerke December the 24th 1678. Mr. Dugdale informeth That in September last he met in Tixall the Lord Stafford nigh to the Gates who said That it was sad they were troubled they could not say their Prayers but in a hid manner but suddenly there would be a Reformation to the Romish Religion and if there be a good success we shall enjoy our freedom And that upon the 20th day of September 1678. the said Lord Stafford told this Informant That there was a Design in hand and if he would undertake in it he should have a good Reward c. and make himself famous The same day this Informant went up into Mr. Francis Evers Chamber to know what my Lord Stafford meant by his words and he first made him swear secresie upon his knees and then told him That he might be a person employed and have a good Reward and make himself famous if he would stand instrumental with others in taking aatay the Kings Life by Shooting or otherwise and need not fear for that the Pope had Excommunicated the King and that all that were Excommunicated by him were Hereticks and they might Kill them and be Canonized for Saints in so doing And that the Design was as well to Kill the Duke of Monmouth as well as the King December the 29th 1678. This Informant saith That since the 20th day of September last the said Lord Stafford did promise him Five Hundred Pounds as to the carrying on of the Plot and that Mr. Evers should give him instructions about the same And that the Lord Stafford told him he did not doubt of his fidelity for Mr. Evers had given him a good character to be trusty And that the Lord Stafford told this Informant That there was a Design to take away the Life of the King and the Life of the Duke of Monmouth and that several others were to be imployed in the Design besides this Informant And that this had been throughly considered of to be the fittest way for the establishing of the Romish Religion And that at the said time the said Lord Stafford laid his hand upon his head and prayed God to keep him in his good mind and to be faithful to what he had intrusted him in c. And this Informant further saith That he doubting of the Lord Stafford's payment the said Mr. Evers promised him the making good of my Lord Stafford's promise c. And further saith that he saw a Letter directed from my Lord Stafford to Mr. Evers and he read the same and knows it to be my Lord Stafford's writing and that therein was written that things went on well beyond the Sâ—as for the carrying on the Design and so he hoped it did do here in England c. Sir Will. Jones My Lords we will examine no further as to Mr. Dugdale But will conclude with this Witness and I think he speaks fully to him The next Witness we called was Dr. Oats and your Lordships have been pleased to observe That what Exceptions have been made against him have not been so much by Witnesses produced as by opposing one part of his Testimony to another what he swore at one time to what he swore at another to which we shall give an Answer when we come to sum up our Evidence for there will be no need of Witnesses to what is objected against Mr. Oats but only of Observations but as to the third Witness Turbervill we have something to answer of Witness and someâ—â—ing by way of making Observation We will first call our Witnesses Then Mr. Southall desired his Paper again which the Court told him he should have a Copy of from the Clerk Sir W. Jones And our first Witness is to this purpose It was objected against Mr. Turbervill L. H. Steward Have you done with Dugdale You have forgot to give an Answer to the objection
about the point of time when Hobson told him of the Design Sir Will. Jones My Lords That will be when we come to make our Observations we shall not answer that by Witnesses when we come to sum up our Evidence I doubt not but we shall give a sufficient Answer to that Objection But to go on with what is to be answered by Testimony your Lordships will be pleased to remember That Turbervill did inform your Lordships That he had some converse with my Lord Stafford at Paris being introduced by some of the Fathers My Lords we shall call a Gentleman that had happened to be there at that time that will tell you though he did not know my Lord Stafford yet he knew that Turbervill did converse much with an English Lord in that place where my Lord does acknowledge his Lodging to be He will give you some further account how Turbervill went to Diep in expectation of my Lord and how he had a Message from the Lord though he did not know my Lord Stafford He will give you a further account how Mr. Turbervill was earnest with him to go to Calice and then told him he might go over with my Lord at that time The use we make of these particulars we will forbear to mention till we sum up our Evidence We desire to examine Mr. Thomas Mort. Who was sworn Sir Will. Jones We desire to ask Mr. Mort whether he knew Mr. Turbervill at Paris and at what time L. H. Steward What say you Sir Mr. Mort. Yes my Lords I knew him it is now five years past since we were in Paris He and I had been intimately acquainted before we lived in the same Family I was several times in company with him and many times in his Brothers company which was a Monk and I heard him say his Brother had an intention he should be of the same Order And some time after that he altered his resolution and designed for England and I had such a design too to go from Paris where I was an Apprentice And being acquainted with him I resolved to go over with him and he told me his Brother the Monk had introduced him into the favour of a Lord as I take it it was my Lord Stafford as well as I can remember And that there was a Vessel to come to Diep a Yaught and we should go thither to go over with my Lord. And Mr. Turbervill told me we must make as much hast as might be for it were better to be there a day or two too soon than too late We went to Diep and when we came there the Vessel was not come And when we had been there a fortnight or thereabouts we were put to a great deal of inconveniency by reason of our long stay there and I think if I mistake not I or some of the Company said Cursed is he that relies or depends on a broken Staff alluding as I believe to my Lord Stafford's Name Mr. Turbervill told me if we did go to Calice we might go over with my Lord but how or by what means he understood the Vessel would be there and my Lord go that way I know not But we did not go thither we had another opportunity there was a small Vessel whether a Fish-Boat or a Coal-Vessel I cannot tell a very little one it was but we took the opportunity and came over in it Sir Will. Jones My Lords we shall make use of it in due time we only call him now to prove his converse with a Lord at Paris L. H. Steward Did you ever see Turbervill at a Lords House in Paris Mr. Mort. No my Lords not that I can remember but I think as near as I remember I will not be positive I walked about Luxenburgh House while he went as he said to the place where the Lord lodged I was thereabouts till he came L. Stafford In what Street was it Mr. Mort. Indeed I cannot tell Sir W. Jones This man is very cautious L. H. Steward Can you tell the Lords Name Mr. Mort. I do not remember his Title but I think it was my Lord Stafford Sir William Jones Pray who were you Servant to Who were you bred under Mr. Mort. My Lord Powis I served as Page to him when Mr. Turbervill was Gentleman-Usher to the Young Lady one of his Daughters since married to my Lord Molineux Sir Will. Jones Will my Lord please to ask him any Questions if not we will go on L. Stafford No not at present Sir Will. Jones Well then my Lords we desire to call one Mr. Powell a Gentleman of Grays-Inn to tell you when he first heard Mr. Turbervill speak of this Evidence he hath now given Mr. Powell was sworn Sir W. Jones Pray will you give an account what discourse you had with Mr. Turbervill about the Plot and when Mr. Powell About this time Twelve-month we discoursed about it and he told me that he had much to say in relation to the Plot but truly he did not name any particulars to me at that time Sir Will. Jones Where was this we desire to ask him Mr. Powell It was at the Kings-head Tavern in Holborn Sir William Jones Are you sure it was a year ago Mr. Powel It was about this time Twelve-month Sir Will. Jones What was the reason he did not think fit then to reveal it Did he tell the reason Mr. Powel I think he gave me a reason That he was something cautious because he feared he might disoblige his Brother at that time Sir VV. Jones Did he give you any further reason Mr. Powel I think he said he was afraid he should not have incouragement enough for he said some of the Witnesses had been discouraged and he was afraid he should be so too Sir VV. Jones Now we shall call a few Witnesses to Mr. Turbervill's Reputation which have known him a good while Mr. Hobby L. H. Stew. Was this time that Mr. Powel speaks of that he did discourse with him before or after that of Yalden Sir W. Jones My Lords We do not know of any discourse with Yalden nay we believe none such was This Witness speaks of a Year since L. H. Steward What time does Yalden speake of Sir VVilliam Jones February or March last and this was a year ago L. H. Steward This was then before that certainly Sir VVilliam Jones We desire Mr. Arnold a Member of the House of Commons may be sworn which was done in his place Sir VVilliam Jones Do you know Mr. Turbervill Mr. Arnold My Lords I do know him very well and I have known him these two years he came recommended to me from his Grace my Lord Duke of Buckingham My Lords presently after the breaking out of the Plot he was sent down into our Countrey by the Lords of your Lordships House that were of the Committee and a particular recommendation from the Duke of Buckingham to me to give him direction and assistance to find
out a Priest one Charles Prichard and I think also if I mistake not one Morgan my Lord Powis's Priest I spoke with him before he went I sent Letters down with him I spoke with him afterwards he hath been in my family some time he hath behaved himself very well there and in several other sober families nearly related to me I have not heard a better character of any man from all sorts of people than of him in my life Sir VV. Jones Did he tell you any thing of the Plot Sir Mr. Arnold My Lords I did several times find by him that he knew much having conversed both in France and here with Jesuits and Priests I pressed him oftentimes to discover his knowledge and to come in to the Council but he gave me such Answers why he did not that I could not answer Sir VVilliam Jones What were they Sir Pray tell us Mr. Arnold That the Witnesses that were come in were in danger of their Lives that they were discouraged that they were discountenanced and as long as the Duke of York had that power in the Conncil that he had and my Lady Powis's Brother had that power over those Countreys where he lived which his Lordship is often pleased to call his Province he durst not do it for his Life Then Mr Hobby was sworn Sir Will. Jones Do you know Mr. Turbervill and how long have you known him Mr. Hobby My Lords I have known Mr. Turbervill near four years L. H. Steward What account can you give of him Mr. Hobby My Lords my first acquaintance with him was at my Brothers House in Glamorganshire When I came there my Brother shew'd him me and told me he was a very worthy man but his Friends had cast him off because he would not take Orders in the Romish Church He lived at my Brothers above a year and when he came thence my Brother writ a Letter of Recommendation to my Father to receive him there and do him all the kindness he could He came to my Father's and stay'd there near half a year or thereabouts I cannot tell to a Month or so Since I have known him often in this Town and been in his company and I never knew nor heard but that he behaved himself like a worthy honest Gentleman but as to any thing of the Plot I know nothing Sir VV. Jones We ask you not to that Where is Mr. Matthews Then Mr. Matthews a Divine was sworn Sir VV. Jones Mr. Matthews pray tell my Lords Whether you know Mr. Turbervill and how long have you known him Mr. Matthews Yes My Lords I have known Mr. Edward Turbervill for about four years last past L. H. Steward Go on what do you know of him Mr. Matthews My Lords he lived some time in my Neighbourhood I never knew him guilty of any ill action at all but a person of a very fair Reputation He acknowledged himself a Roman Catholick and was pleased to give me the liberty to talk to him I found him inclinable to hearken to me and to those Reasons I offered to him and I found he had a mind to quit that Religion being convinced by the Arguments I gave him and as several times he hath since told me those were some of the great motives of his coming over from the Romish to the Protestant Communion L. H. Stew. What were the Motives Mr. Matthews One was the hazard I told him of in his living in the Roman Communion as to Salvation another was the excellency of the Doctrines of our Church its Principles and Practices L. H. Steward Did he acknowledge to you he knew any thing of the Plot Mr. Matthews No not a syllable of it Sir Will. Jones We don't call him to that purpose Then another Witness was sworn L. H. Steward What is your Name Witness William Seys Sir W. Jones Pray will you acquaint my Lords what you know of Mr. Turbervill Mr. Seys I have been acquainted with him this two or three years and I never knew him guilty of any ill action my life I never heard of any body that could asperse him but he hath behaved himself like a very honest civil Gentleman Sir Will. Jones Where were you acquainted with him Mr. Seys Here in London Then Captain Scudamore stood up again Sir Will. Jones He was sworn before we desire he may speak to Mr. Turbervill's Reputation Capt. Scudamore My Lords I have known Mr. Turbervill for these three quarters of a year I have been acquainted with him in London he hath been much at my House and all that while I saw nothing in him but that he is a very honest Gentleman Sir William Jones My Lords I think we have but one matter more which we should have mentioned before but that our Witness was not come but I hope we shall have the favour of some Honourable Lords that do know the thing and I think there are many more that can prove it My Lord Stafford who is very ancient it may be may not remember matters exactly I blame him not Oblivion is the great infirmity of old age He was pleased to say Yesterday he had so good health that he had not been lame I think he said for these Forty years but at last his Page said for the last Seven years and I shall confirm our proof to that time My Lords I think there are some Honourable Lords here that have seen this Noble Lord that says he was not Lame in so many years very near about the time he was confined and imprisoned go Lame and come Lame to the House and ease himself by holding up his Legg sometimes My Lords I do not say the Circumstance is very material but only to shew my Lord may forget himself which I shall impute to his old Age. L. Stafford I will acknowlede it if your Lordships please I did say I had not been lame with the Gout so long no more I have not I was troubled with the Sciatica many years but 't is above eight or nine years since that and I took so much Opium that that and my going to the Bath cured me I have often come lame to the House out of weariness and old Age but if ever I put my Foot upon a Stool for the Gout or was ever so lame as to put my Foot upon a Cushion to ease it I will admit what he speaks to I 'll acknowledge thus much to save time Sir Will. Jones Seeing my Lord is pleased to go off from it I 'll call no Witnesses to it L. Stafford I go off from nothing I was lame three or four years when the King came in I went to the Bath and afterwards into Germany and what with Opium and the Bath I was cured and I have not been lame these eight or nine years I have not had the Gout in my Foot for these many years and I never was so lame to put my Foot on a stool to my remembrance Sir VVill. Jones
all is done But my Lord I would not have your Lordship to understand me so that if so be you have yet any material Evidence that you think it does concern you to produce and you have it ready to Morrow before you sum up the Evidence I believe then if you move my Lords they will let it be heard Otherwise I think here is an end of Witnesses L. Stafford I desire the Paper I gave in may be returned me L. H. Steward But in order to this my Lord if your Lordship does think you shall use or produce any other Witnesses it would be of importance that you would name them now L. Stafford Truly my Lords I will go hunt for none and I think I shall have none only one thing I must beg your pardon in which is the only thing I must have Witnesses to to answer what they have said that my Lord Aston would not come to accompt My Witnesses are very near me Mr. Lieutenant some in the Tower and one Mr. Birch L. H. Steward My Lord Stafford bring those to morrow that you name to night L. Stafford If you please that I may have that Paper Wright's Letter E. of Shaftsbury My Lord Steward I desire that Letter may be kept L. Stafford It is a Paper that was given me and I would return it if you won't allow me it I can't help it L. H. Steward 'T is desired it may remain where it is But your Lordship may have a Copy if you please attested by the Clerk Is it your Lordships pleasure to Adjourn Lords Ay Ay. L. H. Steward This House is Adjourned into the Parliament Chamber Then the Lords withdrew in their Order and the Committee of Commons returned to their House where Mr. Speaker resumed the Chair A Message was sent from the Lords by Sir Timothy Baldwin and Sir Samuel Clark Mr. Speaker The Lords have sent us to acquaint this House That they have Ordered William Viscount Stafford to be brought to his Tryal at the Bar in Westminster-Hall to Morrow morning at Ten of the Clock The Commons Adjourned to Eight of the Clock the next Morning The Fifth Day Saturday December 4. 1680. ABout the hour of Ten in the Morning the Lords Adjourned into VVestminster-Hall going thither in their former Order into the Court there erected and Mr. Speaker having left the Chair the Commons were seated as before The Court being sat Proclamation for silence was made and the Lieutenant of the Tower commanded to bring his Prisoner to the Bar which being done the Lord High Steward began as followeth L. H. Steward What says your Lordship my Lord Stafford My Lords are pepared to hear what your Lordship can say in the summing up of your Defence L. Stafford My Lords I must needs say to your Lordships That you have given me Favour and Time all that I could demand But I am a very unfortunate man in many things unfortunate in being brought hither upon this Accompt and truly my Lords I am very unfortunate That I had not yesterday before I went away the Names of some material Witnesses and some that I did not know of till within this half quarter of an hour I humbly offer this to your Lordships consideration as the state of my Case 'T is true my Lords I acknowledge I was bound up to Mr. Lieutenant and some others that I named but I humbly tell your Lordships this That I am Informed of some material Witnesses more this morning L. H. Stew. Are the Witnesses you speak of any of the Witnesses you named last night L. Stafford No my Lords 'T is one of my Lords a Peer of this House L. H. Stew. How many more have you L. Stafford Five or six L. H. Stew. To what Point L. Stafford To discredit the Witnesses that have been brought against me both some of those that have discredited mine and some that have sworn against me particularly L. H. Stew. There is no End of this way of proceeding L. Stafford My Lords I profess to your Lordships in the presence of God I do it not for delay nor did I know of them then L. H. Stew. What say you to it Gentlemen Sir VVill. Jones My Lords I am afraid this proceeding at this rate will never have an end If his Lordship have any Witnesses to any material part of his Defence though he hath bound himself up I should not be against hearing of them But if his new Witnesses are only to the Reputation of our Witnesses then perhaps we must have some other Witnesses brought to discredit his and we not knowing who these new Witnesses of his would be may need perhaps another day to bring Testimony against them so that I know not when the matter can have an end Your Lordships know there is a Rule in the Civil Law In testem testes in hos sed non datur ultra And I hope beyond that you will not go Truly for my own part I did not expect any other Witnesses but those he was pleased to name last night in relation to the matters of Accompt If he please to call them we shall hear them but for any other considering it would prolong the Tryal to another day and this Cause hath had four days already for Hearing we hope they shall not be admitted L. Stafford My Lords I profess to your Lordships if I were alone concerned in it I should not have moved it but when I consider my Wife and Family are concerned I hold my self bound by the Duty I owe to God and them to propose this to your Lordships I am pressed to it by my Wife just now since the House came in I protest before God for my self I can look Death in the face without being afraid but when I consider in what condition I shall leave my Wife and Family it moves me Then he wept I am not concerned at it for my own part for I know I am innocent but I cannot forbear Tears when I consider them 't is not for my self I take God Almighty to witness that I weep I could be content to speak a few words to your Lordships and submit to your Judgment and take my death if you decree me to it and not defer it till Munday But I cannot forbear shewing my Grief when I consider my Wife and Children L. H. Stew. Pray Gentlemen consider whether it be not a saving of time to let my Lord examine his Witnesses else my Lords must withdraw to consider of his desire 'T is true in the practice of Chancery we do examine to the credit of Witnesses and to their credit but no further but what my Lords will do in this Case I know not till they are withdrawn Sir VVill. Jones My Lords we have that Opinion of our own Proofs and are so desirous of an End of these Proceedings that rather than we will give your Lordships the trouble to withdraw if my Lord will please now to tell us the number
and names of his Witnesses we shall not oppose their being heard Sir Fr. Winn. If your Lordships please one word further We know well of what Concern this is to my Lord and no body desires to have him crampt in his Evidence The Objection did lie fair on our side it looking like a designed delay and yet we are willing to comply with this Reservation that if there should be any such Witnesses produced now as may require an Answer that we may not be foreclosed of advising with one another about it L. H. Stew. No by no means My Lord Stafford your desire is consented unto upon these Terms That your Lordship will now name the persons and number of the Witnesses you will call Mr. Hambden And the Points to which you will call them L. Stafford I humbly thank your Lordships for the favour but it is an impossibility for me to do it If your Lordships will give me a quarter of an hours time I will name them I cannot name some of them one is my Lord Ferrers another is one Dr. Taylor Dr. Watson Dr. Elliot and one William Dale L. H. Stew. Now to what Points will your Lordship call these Witnesses L. Stafford My Lord Ferrers is to speak his knowledge of Southall the Coroner and that is as to Dugdale my Lord knows that person Dr. VVatson and they are to invalidate the Testimony of Dr. Oats and there is another mans Name I forget what it is Sir Will. Jones To what Point is he to be a Witness L. Stafford 'T is to Dr. Oats and the Evidence against me Mr. Serj. Maynard So there will be pretences made every moment of some new Witness to put off this Cause Lord Stafford Under your Lordships favour I scorn to make any delay If you think this may not be material or not fit to be done I will quit it L. H. Stew. Go on my Lord. L. Stafford Will your Lordships be pleased to begin with my Lord Ferrer s who stood up in his place L. H. Stew. My Lord Ferrers your Lordship is called upon by my Lord Stafford and you being a Witness for the Prisoner and against the King your Lordship is not to be sworn Lord Ferrers My Lords what I have to say concerning that person my Lord named Southall is only upon Hear-say and upon the Reputation he hath in the Countrey for I have no acquaintance with him nor do know him at all But the Reputation that hath been given me of him in the Countrey is That he hath been a very active man in the late times against the King and is counted to be a very pernicious man against the Government Lord Stafford Call Dr. Taylor Servant I know not where he is he can't be found at present L. Stafford Then call VVilliam Dale in the mean time My Lords This same Southall I never heard of the other man that drew up the Affidavit that is Feake I know he was named by Southall to joyn with him in the Examination I can tell what he was I can prove that he is an Attorney that he was Mayor of Stafford and proclaimed the King Traytor L. H. Steward Who was that Lord Stafford One that drew up the Affidavit of Dugdale Feake mentioned by Southall L. H. Steward Who is your next Witness my Lord L. Stafford One VVilliam Dale who being called appeared L. H. Steward What is your Name VVitness VVilliam Dale L. H. Stew. What do you say L. Stafford About Dugdale my Lords what he knows about his offering him any money Sir VVill. Jones We desire to know where he lives Dale Dugdale never offered me any money L. H. Stew. Where do you live Dale At Owseley-bridge L. Stafford Pray ask him whether Dugdale persuaded him to swear against my Lord Aston something he knew not L. H. Stew. Did Dugdale ever hire you to swear against my Lord Aston Dale No he never hâ—red me L. H. Stew. Do you know that he ever hired any body else to swear false Dale I do not my Lords L. Stafford My Lords I most humbly thank your Lordships for your favour in giving me the liberty of examining these other Witnesses I shall trouble you no further nor give no more Evidence only one Witness my Lords I shall trouble you no further and that is Mr. Lieutenant of the Tower to this point whether my Lord Aston did refuse to come to accompt with Dugdale L. H. Steward Come Mr. Lieutenant do you know any thing about Accompts between my Lord Aston and Mr. Dugdale Mr. Lieutenant My Lords last Summer was 12 month Dugdale came to the Tower but my Lord Aston would not speak with him unless I were by so they brought him to my Lodging and he shewed me the Books of Accompts Itold them I did not understand Accompts but if they would have me be by I would get some body to be present that did and have them adjusted Mr. Dugdale said he whould come another time but from that time to this I never heard of him L. Stafford My Lords I shall not trouble you with any more Witnesses My Lords I have now done my Evidence I shall as well as my weak memory and old Age will give me leave sum it up something as well as I can of the Evidence given against me and for me Truly my Lords I am able to do it very imperfectly for want of understanding and truly for want of sleep but I do not doubt but that according to the Law as I am informed it is since I can have no Counsel in matter of Fact or to advise me in any thing of that nature yet I am also informed by the Law your Lordships who are my Judges are my Counsel And I do not doubt but your Lordships when you take it into consideration will supply any defects which I shall commit which I believe will be many I shall spend your Lordships time as little as I can though these Gentlemen of the House of Commons believe I desire to protract it yet I profess before God I do not And I declare before them all and your Lordships I am so satisfied of my own Innocency that I would never beg a moments time of delay and I know your Lordships will take care of the Life of the meanest Subject and though I have had the honour to sit among your Lordships as a Peer yet I ask not for your favour but with your justice too I shall therefore sum up my defence as well as I can For the first Witness Dugdale he swore I was at a Consult at Tixal in the end of August or the beginning of September I have sufficiently proved that in all August I was not there nor till the 12. of September I have proved that his first Oath was I was there in August and a man that will swear false in one thing is not to be credited in any I have made it appear to your Lordships that upon the 20. of
September when he says he was in my Chamber and I sent the Page to call him that it is false it was only he desired he might come to me to get leave that he might go to the Race my Lord Aston being angry with him for it This I conceive is proved sufficiently by two Witnesses my Man and my Boy and this I think I have proved as positively as can be done My Lords 't is true 't is objected against me That I had said Dugdale was never seen alone with me in my life 't is true and 't is true Ansell swears he brought a Footman to me but he swears it was in the Morning when it was at Supper and does not say that he was alone with me My Lords Dugdale swore that he told Mr. Philips and Mr. Sambidge of the death of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey on the Munday some swore he said it was on the Tuesday but they deny that ever he told it them and so he is forsworn in that And my Lords whether he be a man of any great Credit I think I have proved enough to your Lordships 'T is proved by two Witnesses Holt and Morrall that he offered them money to swear as likewise he did to another one Robinson whom I do believe by the Information that was given of him to be a wicked ill man and not to be credited but being so my Lords he was the fitter for Dugdale's turn And yet he had so much Conscience though he was a poor and needy fellow he would not swear a mans Life away for money the other two are without exception the one they say is an idle fellow and t'other a man but of an indifferent Reputation how far that will move with your Lordships I submit it to you I suppose 't is also clear by my Witnesses that Dugdale is a man of no Reputation having forsworn himself in several particulars and I submit the Credit of all he says to your Lordships upon that The next Witness my Lords is Mr. Oats whether he be a Doctor or no I know it not he would not own it here he my Lords swears that he saw a Commission delivered to me to be Pay-master of an Army to be raised God knows when I never heard when or where I suppose it was in the Clouds for I never knew where else Mr. Oats all along before swore only that he believed I was in the Plot now he swears I was in it at Mr. Fenwicks Chamber a man I never saw in my life nor heard of till this discovery And that he saw Letters subscribed by my Name but that my Lords I conceive is no Evidence at all for he never saw me write nor does know my Hand nor does he pretend to know me then and when he had told your Lordships he had a Letter of mine he pretended to look for it and then said he had lost it that is never had it But besides my Lords his Evidence now does not agree with his former for I do appeal to your Lordships that were in the House then that he swore the first time He only saw my Name to Letters afterwards he swore that is some days after he had ended all his Evidence and knew no more than he had put down then afterwards he remembers what he knew not before and swears a Commission he saw delivered to me So his Memory increases as he hath time to invent and perhaps by another time it might be much more But my Lords I think that one particular his swearing before your Lordships as 't is entred in your Journal that he had no more to say against any body and afterwards naming the Queen and now me to have a Commission I conceive is perfect Perjury My Lords Mr. Oats told your Lordships That he had never been a Papist in his Heart but ever feigned it truly my Lords I cannot possibly give over that point That a man that feigns himself to be a Papist or any thing that in the opinion of Protestants is so wicked a thing as that is fit to be believed if he shall not heartily repent himself and own it to God and Man as an ill thing to dissemble so But yesterday he with a smiling Countenance and as it were in derision owns that which must be a very great offence to God Almighty to pretend to be of an Idolatrous Church I appeal to your Lordships whether he be a fit Witness I conceive he cannot be thought a Christian nor to believe in God I know many wicked and infamous persons have done many wicked things and yet have been Witnesses but never did any wicked man own a wicked thing that he might have concealed with boasting of it that ever was credited in any thing for if he had said I do acknowledge I did dissemble with God and my own Conscience but I ask God forgiveness it was for a good End and a good Intention it had been something though that could not have atoned for so ill a thing but shewing no Repentance but rather an impudent affronting of God Almighty I think he is not a fit Witness I appeal to your Lordships and the whole Christian World if he be I cannot believe your Lordships will condemn me for an Opinion which I will go to my death with and it stands upon me so to do The last Witness my Lords is Turbervill and he says in the year 75 he often discoursed alone with me for a fortnight together at Paris My Servants he owns he never saw them and how he could come for a fortnight together and not see my Servants I refer it to your Lordships consideration whether it be possible For I 'le tell your Lordships when I had been a few days at Paris my Landlord came one day to me and said You do not do well to suffer any body to come to you without your Man be by for there came yesterday a Frenchman to speak with you and I do not know him and he went strait up to your Chamber without any body with him 't is a dangerous thing said he for I know that Frenchmen and people have come up and been alone with persons and put a Pistol to them and made them deliver their mony for fear of their Lives therefore pray said he do it no more From that time which was a few days after I came to Paris the latter end of October or the beginning of November no Christian Soul was permitted to come to me without my Servants how then could he come to me for a fortnight together and none of my Servants see him My Lords this Gentleman very civilly the next day after he had made an Affidavit against me would needs mend it and Sir William Poultney did acknowledge that he made Affidavit one day that he came to my Lord Powis's in the year 73 and the next day amended it to 72. Now I humbly conceive my Lords a man that swears one thing to day
proof of it 't is not to affect me Fifthly There is is one Point of Law more That no man can be condemned for Treason as I conceive by one Witness and there are not two Witnesses to any Point These are the Points of Law I humbly beg your Lordships pardon for the trouble and desire your Opinion in them Sir William Jones My Lords Before we make answer to what my Lord hath said I do humbly desire That for the Objection which he hath made against Mr. Southall proved by a Noble Lord of this House though I must observe it was not of his own knowledge but by Hear-say and that matter of Hear-say contrary to the Act of Oblivion to the end there may no doubt remain of Mr. Southall's Credit that a Noble Lord of this House and a Gentleman of the House of Commons who both know Mr. Southall may be heard to his Reputation Sir Fran. Winn. My Lord Ferrers knew him not himself but my Lord Brook and Mr. Gower will give a better account of him Then the Lord Brook was sworn Lord Brook My Lords What I have to say concerning this Mr. Southall is That he hath been often employed both by my Brother and my Mother and they have so good an Opinion of him that they employ him still and therefore we take him for an honest man and an able man or he would not be so much trusted and employed and I take him to be a very good Churchman for if he was not I would not employ him L. H. Steward An honest man an able and a good Churchman your Lordship says Lord Brook He receives the Sacrament four times a year Sir Will. Jones Then swear Mr. VVilliam Leveson Gower a Member of the House of Commons which was done in his place Mr. L. Gower My Lords I have been near 7 years of Staffordshire but did not know Mr. Southall till this Popish Plot was discovered After that I came acquainted with him being a Justice of the Peace in that County in Court where I found him to be the most zealous Prosecutor of the Papists in that Country no man like him I likewise found several Popish Priests had by his means been apprehended and imprisoned and one of them since convicted who by the way still remains unexecuted in Stafford Goal What Opinion some may have heard or had of him formerly I cannot tell but this I know that he hath more than once come to desire my Assistance that he might prosecute the Papists the most effectual way upon the Statutes made for that purpose and that he did complain to me that he had not met with good usage elsewhere My Lords I take Opinion to be grounded upon Principles and I do observe that those of this Country who do believe this Popish Plot and know Mr. Southall and are principl'd for the Preservation of the King the Protestant Religion and the Government do at this time speak well of him and those who are not so principl'd speak otherwise My Lords I was surpris'd when I heard my Name mention'd upon this occasion I have told your Lordships all the matter of Fact that upon the suddain occurs to me with my own Opinion which I offer with all submission and had I had notice I might possibly have recollected more which I would freely have declared to your Lordships but this is all that I can now say L. Stafford My Lords if your Lordships please I would say one word if you will give me leave I am very ignorant and beg your Lordships pardon for troubling of you I humbly desire to know whether after the Points of Law are argued I may speak something not concerning the Evidence of the Plot but concerning my self Sir Will. Jones My Lords we shall not oppose the saying any thing he can for himself but we must conclude and have the last word L. H. Steward My Lord the Gentlemen that are for the House of Commons must conclude My Lords will give you all the favour they can but they must have the last word L. Stafford I do not oppose it L. H. Steward Therefore you will do well to say all you have to say together For the Points of Law my Lords will give no Judgement till the Commons have answered them and they I suppose will first sum up the whole Proofs then you may say what you have to say for they must make an end Gentlemen will you speak first to the Law Sir Will. Jones No my Lords first to the Fact L. H. Steward Go on then Then Sir William Jones One of the Committee appointed to manage the Evidence began to sum up the same as followeth MAy it please your Lordships We have now done our Evidence as to matter of Fact and that which I have in Charge at this time is to remind your Lordships of our Proofs to answer the Objections that have been made against them and to make some Observations upon the whole My Lords The Members of the House of Commons that were appointed for the Service of the Management of this Tryal those of them I mean who began the first day made a Division of our Evidence into two parts the one that which concerned the Plot in general and the other what related to this Lord in particular My Lords as to the Plot in general we did call six Witnesses I know some of your Lordships have taken Notes and you have their Names they were Smith Dugdale Prance Oats Denis and Jenison My Lords because I will save as much of your time as I can I will not take upon me to repeat what each Witness said as to the Plot in general but when I come to the Evidence which immediately concerns my Lord I must beg your favour that I may be more particular I will say thus much for the Proofs of the Plot in general That there was by those Witnesses so much fully proved that made it most apparent That there was a general Design amongst the Roman Catholicks to introduce their false Religion into this Kingdom That the Jesuits had several Meetings to that end That they endeavoured to do it by several ways by raising of Armes by collecting of Monies and by designing against the Kings Life nay they had so far advanced their Designs and were in so much readiness as they thought it time to appoint Officers not only for their Army but for the Civil Government as if the Work were already accomplished Your Lordships were told by one of the Witnesses of a Lord Chancellor and of a Lord Treasurer Lords now in the Tower yet to be tried and you were told also of Officers for the Military part a General a Lieutenant-General and this Lord at the Bar to be Pay-Master of the Army I shall my Lords desire to take notice to your Lordships That this Design though it was to be finally acted by other Hands yet was it first contrived and afterwards carried on by the Priests and
his hearing complain That the King had deceived them a great while and that they would bear with him no longer he should deceive them no more My Lords Our third Witness was Mr. Turbervill who doth give you an account that he being first sent to Doway and intended to be entred there in one of the Societies he was sent by my Lord Powis and my Lady Powis and some of his Relations of that Religion for that purpose he did not like the Company he was not pleased with the Exercises of that Religion and that with much difficulty he escaped thence and came for England But finding he was not well look'd upon here nor well received by his Relations he went over to France That being at Paris he came into the company of the three Fathers I named before Father Sherborn Father Nelson and Father Turbervill the last whereof he tells you was his own Brother That by the means of these Priests he was brought acquainted with my Lord Stafford and doubtless they were able to make him intimately acquainted with my Lord. And it did prove so for he tells you after some time that in a lower Room of my Lords Lodging my Lord proposed to him the business of killing the King That he did not at all like it was very unwilling to undertake it but my Lord bid him consider of it and that he should give him his Answer at Diep having enjoyned him secrecy but my Lord after sent him word he would go by Calice and the Witness afterwards went into England and from thence into the French Army And this is the substance of what Turbervill deposeth And my Lords I think it will not be doubted by any man that will consider these three mens Testimonies but that here are two Witnesses if not more to prove my Lord Guilty of Treason But my Lord has been pleased against them to make several Objections some have been by Witnesses which he hath produced to incounter the Proofs that we have offered and some of them have been by Observations that he hath made upon what hath been said by our Witnesses and his I will keep to Order as much as I can not confound the Order and Method of his Defence The Witnesses he first brought were against Dugdale and of them his Lordship was pleased to begin with his Daughter the Lady Marchioness of Winchester and his Niece Mrs. Howard Your Lordships I presume are pleased to observe what they were called to They did testifie that being at Wakeman's Tryal they did hear Dugdale swear says my Lady Marchioness of Winchester that my Lord Stafford was to come down into Staffordshire in June or July and Mr. Dugdale was then to receive Orders from my Lord and he swore as she was pleased to say that there was a Consult in August at Tixall and my Lord Stafford was there present Mrs. Howard for I put them together was pleased to say that she was present at that Tryal and there Dugdale swore my Lord Stafford did come down in June or July and that my Lord was at the Consult in August My Lords I will not make Objections neither to the Religion of these Ladies nor to the Relation to my Lord though those be matters that are to be considered But that which I shall observe to your Lordships is this That they do not agree one with another For my Lady Winchester says Dugdale did swear that my Lord was to come down in June or July and Mrs. Howard says that he swore he did come down then Now there is a great difference betwixt swearing an intention that a man was to come down and swearing the very Act that he did come down at that time By which your Lordships may observe how hard a matter it is for Witnesses that are present at a Tryal especially at a Tryal which did not directly though it might in consequence concern another Person of their Relation to take notice exactly of things And truly my Lords these Ladies being of that Religion might have so much concern upon them for Sir George Wakeman the Popish Physician and in him for other their friends of that party that they might not have so much liberty of thought as to observe exactly all circumstances sworn to by the Witnesses and therefore it is no great matter if they are mistaken in them But I believe if any one do consult the Print though it be no Evidence nor offer'd as such he will find no such thing was at that time sworn for it is not so printed and those that took notes did not understand it so My Lords The next Witness my Lord is pleased to bring is his Servant Furnese and what is it that he testifieth He saith that he was with my Lord the whole time that Dugdale was in my Lords Chamber and he doth not remember that ever Dugdale was there but once and he doth not remember that ever my Lord bid him go out of the Room My Lords it is a very hard matter for a man to come thus in the Negative to remember how often Dugdale was there especially there being no more occasion to take notice of it then than here appears to be and that after so long a time And it is a very hard matter for a Servant to gain Credit by saying his Master never bid him go out of the Room in his life These things may be done or said and yet escape the memory of a Servant of more Age and of less inclination to favour his Master then this person appears to be of and to have Therefore I think there will be but a very small matter made of what he said no force at all in it and I believe your Lordships will give very little regard to it but rather believe those Witnesses that swear positively that they have seen him with my Lord and speak to a familiarity at that time between them This young man Furnese was my Lords Servant and of his Religion and it is considerable whether we have not reason to be afraid that more than ordinary Practice has been used to prepare Evidence on my Lords behalf which I shall have occasion to speak to when I come to the other Witnesses His next Witness my Lords was his Boy George Leigh who is Fifteen years of Age now and was Eight years old when he came to my Lord Seven years ago And he attests the same thing and to the same purpose with the other And I think I may leave him with the same Answer for we are nothing more concerned with him than we were with the other Only one thing I would observe to shew that his Memory was imperfect he doth not remember that Dugdale was with my Lord at all that day which my Lord himself doth acknowledge he was and the other Witness agrees So that there cannot be any great weight laid upon what he saith My Lords next Witness was Thomas Sawyer and he is one of my
Oats as to the General Matters which he evidenceth of the Plot. What now doth my Lord object against Dr. Oats He call'd no Witnesses against him but only an Honourable Earl of this House I think I may name him the Earl of Berkely And that which his Lordship was pleased to testifie against him was Object That being examined at the House of Lords after he had given a long Evidence against many persons he was asked this Question whether there were any more Persons of Quality he could speak against or could accuse and he said no. Answ First your Lordships will be pleased to observe that this was after he had accused my Lord Stafford my Lord was secured in the Tower long before that upon Dr. Oats his Testimony and so he could not exclude this Lord. But that which it is brought for I suppose is to make him a person of no Credit For after he had said this he proceeded to an Accusation of the Queen My Lords I humbly conceive this may receive a very fair Answer For First my Lords I appeal to your Lordships Memories for I think the Matter was before you all or at leastwise before some of your Lordships that the Accusation which Dr. Oats made of the Queen was not positive nor of his own certain knowledge but Words which he heard spoken in a Room in which he was not himself but coming in afterwards he saw the Queen was there So it was not positive but circumstantial proof and questionable whether what he testified would amount to the proof of one Witness And I must observe in the second place it might not be so clear to Dr. Oats whether the Queen were a Person capable of an Accusation so as to be proceeded criminally against the King and the Queen are to some purposes but one Person in Law 'T is true some Queens have been tryed for Treason but whether Dr. Oats understood that She might be brought to a Tryal may be a Question But that which I rely upon as an Answer and which I desire may be considered is that Dr. Oats had given an Accompt of a great many persons and a great many things he had sworn against several persons some of which were executed some to be tryed and his Narrative against them and of the whole Plot consisted of a great number of particulars Here is a Question comes to the Doctor on a sudden Have you any more to say or can you speak against any other 'T is possible a man that had said so much and of so many might not upon an instant recollect whether he had said all or against all that he could say Nay ' tit easily to be imagined he could not on a sudden comprehend all he had said or could say Therefore that the Answer of a man to such a Question put suddenly to him having so much in his mind and having said so much should be taken so very strictly and to hold him as perjured because he did not at that instant time remember this particular of the Queen I think is a severe Construction His Lordship is pleased further to object against Dr. Oats that he is of no Credit why Because he went to be of the Romish Religion and so was of that Religion which is Idolatry I suppose his Lordship will not call that Religion Idolatry at another time and in another place but it serves his Lordship upon this particular Occasion to call it so but suppose Doctor Oats did out of Levity or for want of being well grounded in his own turn to another Religion he is not the first man that hath done so There have been Men of great Fame in our Church and of great Learning too that have changed their Religion more than once I think he that knew that Famous Man Mr. Chillingworth could not but know he was first a Protestant and afterwards a Papist and afterwards a Protestant again So that unless my Lord could accuse the Doctor of some great Crime or Immorality it will be hard that the matter of changing his Religion should hurt his Testimony I am sure it was happy for us he did change without that we had not had the first knowledge of the Plot nor of many particulars which he could not come to know but by occasion of that Change My Lord was pleased to object that the Doctor was a man subject to Passion and he brought in the Lieutenant of the Tower to speak of some hot Words that passed between them My Lords I will allow the Doctor to be a Man of Passion Nay if my Lord please a Man that is not of the deepest reach but your Lordships will observe that Passionate Men are not often malicious and that a Man who is not of a deep Judgment could never have contrived and invented a Narrative consisting of so many particulars and they so coherent if they were false And if his Narrative be not true he must be indued with more Subtilty and wicked Policy than upon Tryal we can find in him So that what my Lord hath objected as to his Infirmities is no diminution to the truth of what he says but rather a Confirmation of it My Lords The last Witness whom my Lord endeavoured to impeach is Mr. Turbervill and against him my Lord thinks he hath a great advantage But my Lords by that time I have re-minded your Lordships of what hath been already said and what was before proved in Answer to my Lord's Objections against him Mr. Turbervill will stand as clear in this Court as any of the former Witnesses Your Lordships will be pleased to take Notice That Mr. Turbervill was at the beginning when he came to the House of Commons a little uncertain as to matter of Time For when he had made in his Affidavit the times to be 73 and 76 he craved leave to alter it to 72 and 75. Surely my Lords this will be far from being any Imputation to Mr. Turbervill because First he gives the Reason how he came afterwards to understand the Time bettter by viewing his Papers and Letters he likewise gives you an Account and so did Sir William Poultney when he did this the next Morning before any Man in the World had questioned him upon it So that it shews the Man's Care and Conscience both when he is so careful even in matters of the smallest Moment to set things right There is no Man that knows the Practice of the Court of Chancery but knows that for a Man to mend his Answer after it is sworn in a point of Time or other Circumstance is no disparagement to him Nay to do it before the other Party did except or take notice of it is no Objection but rather a Reputation to him And your Lordships will be pleased to take notice that one of the times rectified is of 7 or 8 years the other of 4 years standing And I do not think the worse of a Witness that is not positive
of those Letters shew me the Letter you carried to the Post-house My Lords were those Letters written to Dr. Oats Did they belong to him Or is it possible that my Lords Letter delivered by the Doctor to the Post-house should now be shewn by the Doctor or that the Letters writ to the Superior of the Society of the Jesuits should be produced by one that was a Novice of that Society Does Dr. Oats talk of any one Letter written to himself You will then I suppose see no reason to expect those Letters should be produced by him that were not written to him and the custody whereof belonged to others My Lords I must observe to You that there have been great Endeavours used to Invalidate our Testimony we have had Witnesses called against Witnesses and my Lord hath had that Advantage to do it which perhaps was never given in any Case before and which I hope will never be again The Evidence hath been Printed and Published to the World before it hath been given I say not that it was not necessary in this Case which was a National Cause and the Cause of our Religion but I do say it would not be fit to be done in other Cases for the notifying of the Evidence is the way to have it falsified and corrupted But notwithstanding all these Advantages my Lords I appeal to your Lordships Memories what considerable contradiction hath been given It is true some Witnesses to that end have been brought before your Lordships but those Witnesses have been rendred incredible by more credible persons and I would desire your Lordships to observe That tho' my Lord hath failed of proving any Subornation in our Witnesses yet we have proved much Subornation endeavoured by his Agents Your Lordships have the Record against Redding before you and what Reference that hath to the Lords in the Tower every one does remember and my Lord is mentioned in that Record And I might likewise mention the business of Cellier and what therein related to the Lords in the Tower and I 'le name but two Witnesses more that have been attempted upon this Nature There was Wright the Barber all the Applications were made to him that could be Money given Letters writ Insinuations that he was not to Swear he was but to Write and that was easily done or if he would be so kind to Swear it he should never come into open Court only go before a Justice of Peace So that your Lordships will observe by what steps and degrees men were endeavoured to be Suborned And then Launder tells you what was offered to him to perjure himself how he was brought to Tixall and what endeavours were used to make him Swear against our Witnesses These things are plain both by Records and particular Proofs upon Oath But my Lords lest we should want proof of all This very Lord I pity him for it hath been so unfortunate as to bring that Paper out of his Pocket which Wright says he had money to frame and was to Swear to It seems my Lord had the Command of it it seems to have been prepared for such a good time as This and the producing of this Paper is as full a Confirmation of this point as can in reason be expected My Lords I have been I fear too long already and yet I fear I have omitted as many particulars as I have mentioned My Lords The Evidence is so strong that I think it admits of no doubt and the Offences proved against my Lord and the rest of his Party are so foul that they need no aggravation The Offences are against the King against His Sacred Life against the Protestant Religion nay against all Protestants for it was for the Extirpation of all Protestants out of these Three Nations I mean not of every one that is now so but of every one that would have continued so every one amongst us if these Designs had been accomplished must either have turned his Religion or turned out of his Countrey or have been burned in it 'T is a Design that appears with so dreadful a Countenance to Your Lordships to this great Assembly and to the whole Nation that it needs not any words I can use to make you apprehend it If the matter be fully proved as I see no reason to doubt but that it is I am sure your Lordships will do that Justice to Your King and Countrey as to give Judgment against these Offenders which will not only be a Security to us against them but a Terror to all others against comitting the like Offences L. Stafford I beg of your Lordships to know whether you will give me leave to speak a word And my Lords I shall not speak any thing but as to a mistake Sir Will. Jones hath made in two or three things Pray my Lords may I put you in mind of them Sir William Jones If there be any mistake pray tell us what it is L. Stafford First My Lords he did omit telling you that Mr. Turbervill's Brother did say he came in 71 to my Lord Powis's Secondly He says I have proved my self a Papist because I have not taken the Test My Lords the Test was since I was in the Tower and whether I will take it or not I do not yet know till it be offered me The Third is this That this Letter was in my Pocket which I produced to you my Lords I knew nothing what was in it it was given into my hand as I stood here at the Bar. Fourthly He said Hobson did go out of England with the Almoner he did not so Another thing he says that I said Oats was an infamous person because he went to a Church that I said was Idolatrous I only said it was so adjudged by Act of Parliament I find my Lords these things he is mistaken in and that my Lords made me very willing to put You in mind of them L. H. Steward Gentlemen I would ask you whether you take any Notice of the Points in Law Sir Fran. Winn. After the Fact is stated my Lords we shall Then Mr. Powle also one of the Committee appointed to manage the Evidence proceeded further in Summing up of the same Mr. Powle My Lords the Learned Person that spake last hath left very little for me to say in the Summing of this Evidence But because this Noble Lord hath been pleased to alledge several Reasons from whence he would infer at least a great improbability that he should be guilty of the Treasons whereof he stands Accused I shall crave your Lordships patience that I may give Three or Four words in answer to those particulars My Lords In the first place this Noble Lord was pleased to begin and afterwards to continue his Defence with making protestations of his own Innocency We very well know your Lordships sit now in the Seat of Justice and whatsoever credit or regard your Lordships please to give to the Protestations of a Peer in
another Case your Lordships will proceed here only according to your Proofs and your Evidence secundum allegata probata and therefore all we shall say to this is that we hope our Proofs are so clear and evident as will leave no room to your Lordships to believe this Noble Lords Protestations In the next place my Lord is pleased to alledge and withal to lay some weight upon it the voluntary surrendring of himself to Justice and he laid it down as a Rule that as Flight is an argument of Guilt so the Surrendring of a mans self to the Trial of the Law is an argument of Innocency My Lords We admit the Rule generally to be true but in some particular Cases it may be otherwise for a Man that is not very confident of his own Innocency may yet be very confident of the strength of his Party and whether the consideration of the circumstances of Affairs as they then stood and the power and prevalency of the Popish party at that time might not reasonably create such a confidence in this Noble Lord we must leave to your Lordships Judgment My Lords We do conceive that those Persons who contrived Sir Edmundbury Godfrey's Murder had so great Confidence in the favour and protection of some of their Party that they thought themselves able to out-face Justice And we verily believe they intended it as an example to deter all Men from medling so much as with the taking an Examination concerning this Horrid Plot. My Lords I desire to be understood aright in this I lay nothing of the Death of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey to the Charge of this Noble Lord I only use it as an Argument of the presumption of the Popish party at that time My Lords In the next place my Lord Stafford did observe from my Lord Coke that in the Tryals of Treasons we ought very much to guide our Judgments by the Nature and Circumstances of the Fact the Concomitants and subsequents as he termed them with Reference to the Person accused whether they were likely to induce or deter him from such an Attempt and here he was pleased to raise some Arguments from the whole course of his Life and did desire your Lordships to consider those Circumstances therein that might make it improbable or impossible that he should commit a Treason of this Nature He desired also your Lordships to remember that he was descended from an Honourable Family and that his Ancestors were very worthy and very deserving Persons and such as had often ventured their Lives in defence of their Country And here he did likewise mention his own Services to the last King and our present Soveraign in the late Wars It is not my part nor will I derogate any thing from the Merits of this Noble Lord much less from the Honour of his Family but in Answer to this we shall desire your Lordships to consider that this Noble Lord however he is pleased to disown it at present is notoriously known to be a Roman Catholick as they call themselves and such we conceive we have sufficiently proved him to be in the course of our Evidence And as there is nothing in the World so much as a misguided Conscience that can ingage the best of Men into the worst of Actions so we think the Principles of that Religion are such as are more likely to pervert Men from their Duty and Allegiance than any other Religion or Perswasion whatsoever And if the Zeal of this Noble Lord did engage him to endeavour the establishment of that Religion in this Kingdom we may easily believe that his Reason did suggest to him the means by which it must be effected which could be no other but Blood and Confusion My Lords The last thing I shall take notice of is what my Lord Stafford was pleased to say in General as to the Doctrine of Killing and Deposing Princes which his Lordship was pleased to call a private Opinion and not the Doctrine of the Church of Rome But by the way my Lords give me leave to observe that this Noble Lord did upon this occasion fully own and I much commend his Ingenuity in it the reality of the Gun Powder Treason since we know how much that Party have endeavoured to render it Incredible and as length of time hath so fully manifested the particulars of that Execrable Design that it hath brought such as are of that Perswasion to confess the truth of it so we hope this days Tryal will convince both the Age we live in and all Posterity of the Truth and Reality of this present Conspiracy But to go on with that Point from which I did digress I am not I confess much versed in the Canons and Councils of the Church of Rome but my Lords this I know the most famous and celebrated Writers of that Church especially of the Society of the Jesuits have publickly avowed and maintained this Doctrine And we know in all times when there hath been occasion to put it in practice it hath never failed to have been attempted and we likewise know that the Church of Rome and the Pope have always avowed the Acts when they have been done From all which we might very reasonably conclude that it is the Doctrine of that Church so to do But my Lord is pleased to say and admit for Truth That a great many private Writers do hold the contrary I believe it to be so but I do also believe that it is the Policy and Artifice of the Church of Rome to leave this Point of Doctrine in some measure undetermined that so they may make use of it as the occasion serves For if it succeeds then it is owned and justified if it miscarry then the Doctrine is but a private Opinion and the Plot but the Practice of particular Persons that are either desperate or discontented And I am fully of Opinion that This Horrid Conspiracy which is brought this day in Judgment before your Lordships wants nothing but Success to canonize it My Lords As to what concerns the Evidence it hath been so fully stated to You and the Objections that were raised to invalidate it so well answered that I will not trouble your Lordships with any Repitition of what hath been said already All we have further to desire is That your Lordships will please to take our Evidence into your Consideration and to do thereupon what shall be agreeable to Justice Mr. Serj. Maynard My Lords as to Matter of Fact I shall say nothing but only this and I wish it may be spoken with Gratitude to Almighty God that the Discovery of this Plot is rather the Work of God than Man It was first his Act in prevailing upon Oats to make the Discovery and when he stood single almost what came to support his Credit but the Letters of Coleman which were like a Tally to what Oats had said for what Oats informs is in a great part made good by his Letters
Then when Godfrey was murther'd how came that Discovery out but by the voluntary Confession of one engaged in the whole Plot I mean Bedloe So that though these men had engaged themselves by wicked Oaths yet their own Consciences witnessing against them in themselves they could not forbear coming in to testifie against themselves I shall say no more than that we ought to acknowledge the Hand of God in the Discovery with great Thankfulness for it is He and He alone that out of his own Grace and Goodness hath done it and thereby preserved the Life of our Prince to us and in Him us too But as to the Matter in Law My Lord has been pleased to mention first this That there is no Overt Act. I wonder that my Lord should be so much mistaken When it is charged in the Articles and proved to his Face he received a Commission Is not that an Overt Act He is charged in the Articles of Impeachment with Contriving the Death of the King and being at several Meetings and Consults about the King's Death and Hâ—â—ing Persons to Kill the King And are these no Overt Acts Therefore as to that my Lord is mistaken My Lords another Exception that is taken is That there is no Indictment I conceive that an Impeachment of the House of Commons is more than an Indictment And there cannot be any doubt of that the Impeachment of the House of Commons having always been received and proceeded on by your Lordships But that which is most insisted upon is That this Charge that is made against this Lord was presented in another Parliament It is true but under favour what is once upon Record in Parliament may at any time afterwards be proceeded upon It is a sudden Objection but I conceive it hath been done However in a Case of this Nature when the Life of the King when our own Lives and our Nation and our Religion lies at stake if there were not a Precedent I hope You would make a Precedent But under favour Reason is for it the Charge is before You the Proof is made and we pray You will judge according as the Evidence hath been Sir Will. Jones My Lords as to these Matters of Law I think they are of so little difficulty that my Lord will not desire to have Counsel assigned him I am sure his Counsel will not desire to speak to them For this last Matter which Mr. Serjeant spoke of and which was first named by the Prisoner I desire your Lordship to consider what it is Says my Lord the Prisoner there was an Impeachment begun in the Long Parliament and this is now the Third Parliament in which I am brought to my Tryal It is very true there was a General Impeachment in the Long Parliament the particular one was in the last and this Lord was pleased to plead in the last It may be he was not so well advised then as he is now But my Lords How can this be a doubt when your Lordships have resolv'd and have sent it down to the Commons and it is there entred in their Book as the Law and Constitution of Parliaments that not only Impeachments but all Judicial proceedings continue from Parliament to Parliament in the same state that they were in at the Rising of the last Parliament This is now become the Law of Your House and it is under favour being so the Law of the Kingdom and You having thus declared it and sent it to the Commons I hope the Commons had very good reason to proceed upon this Impeachment at this time The next matter is concerning the Overt Acts I think there are sufficient Overt Acts in proof and sufficient in the Impeachment Will any man deâ—y thaâ— tâ—e Receiving a Commission to be Pay-master of an Army is an Overt ' Act Will any deny that the sending for the Witness and offering him money in order to hire him to kill the King is an Overt Act and which answers to all will any man deny that the meeting and consulting of several men together about killing the King and changing the Government is an Overt Act. My Lords These are all Overt Acts and I cannot but think it was without advice of my Lords Counsel that he made these Objections for indeed these several Overt Acts are laid in the Impeachment as fully as they are made out in proof My Lords there is another Objection that my Lord is pleased to make and that is that there is but one Witness to a particular Fact L. H. Steward Ay What say you to that Sir Will. Jones That my Lords is of little weight with submission for our Impeachments and our Proofs run to this that my Lord had a Design and Intention to destroy the King this was to be done by Force and this was to be done by secret Assassination Now if several Witnesses come and prove each a distinct Act under this Head of killing the King it is so many Proofs or Witnesses to the Treason For my Lords if a man shall intend to kill the King and shall buy a Knife in one County at one time and send for a man out of another County at another time whom he shall hire to kill the King and these distinct Acts are proved by several Witnesses if they concur to the same general Treason they are all but parts of that and so are so many Witnesses to the whole And so I am sure it was resolved in the Case of others of the Conspirators in the Old Baily and before that in the Case of Sir Henry Vane But My Lords in this Case here is first a Proof that he accepted a Commission which I do not use as an Act for the levying of War only but as a Design to change the Government and destroy the King Here is meeting and consulting how to do this wicked Work I mean to kill the King that is another Overt Act Here is offering money to one of the Witnesses for that end that is a third Overt Act and there is attempting another of them though not with Money yet with Promises of Reward in general that is another Overt Act all which are to this end the Killing of the King And I am sure of it your Lordships cannot but receive satisfaction from my Lords the Judges that it hath always been so held that though there need Two Witnesses to prove Treason yet there needs no more than one to one Act and another to another if the several Acts fall under the same Head of Treason Sir Franc. Winn. My Lords I crave your patience but for a word or two and this Noble Lord will have little Reason to say his Objections in point of Law are of any weight I confess he had said a great thing if it were true that the Articles of Impeachment did not alledge an Overt Act for then indeed they had been apparently defective But under his pardon that is not a point of Law but
a point of Fact Let us therefore resort to the Articles themselves In the 2 d Article it is alledged that he with the rest did most wickedly and traiterously agree conspire and resolve to Imprison Depose and Murther His Sacred Majesty and to deprive Him of his Regal State and Government And then the same Article alledges farther that they did contrive and consult to effect the Murther of the King by Shooting by Poisoning and by Stabbing All these particulars are expressed so that when my Lord said the Articles were therein defective all we can say is that he was misinform'd My Lords there was another Exception taken that this is the Impeachment of another Parliament I must not now repeat how this Point was agreed by both Houses at a Conference But it was then declared upon search of Precedents in all ages that it was the Law of Parliaments which is the Law of the Land that if once an Impeachment by the House of Commons were lodged in the House of Lords tho' that Parliament were dissolved the Impeachment remained in the same state It was the Cause of the Commons of England who only change their Representatives in a new Parliament It has been also objected that this Prosecution ought to have been upon an Indictment As if an Accusation of the House of Commons who are the grand Inquest of the Nation were not as effectual to bring Offenders to Justice as the finding of a particular Jury My Lords I should wonder to hear this Objection made were not my Lord to be easily excused for his knowing the Law no better None who know any thing in the Law would have urg'd such a thing His Counsel I dare say did not suggest this matter to him It is true my Lords when a Peer comes to be Tried by way of Commission or in Parliament when it is not at the prosecution of the Commons there an Indictment is first found in the proper County and brought up before the Peers by Certiorari and upon that they proceed But whether the Party be Peer or Commoner if he be Impeach'd for any Crimes surely no one can deny but that by the constant use of Parliaments the Lords have proceeded to Trial and have given Judgment thereupon without an Indictment found So that this Exception will be of no force at all As for the remaining Objection that there are not two Witnesses to prove any one Overt Act the Kings Person would be in no manner of safety if that Doctrine should be once allowed Conspiring to kill the King is the Treason laid in the Impeachment and the several Overt Acts are so many several Evidences of that Treason Words themselves if they signifie an intention to do an Act and express something to be done in futuro are a sufficient Overt Act a legal Evidence of Treason Then we prove by another Witness not words of encouragement only but offers of money and they are both to the same kind of Treason tho' not to the same Act and at the same time And if there must be 2 Witnesses to every single Act the King of England is not only in a far worse condition than any other Prince but than any one of his own Subjects Treasons may be committed every day with Impunity and unless the Traytors be as great Fools as Villains he shall never be safe from them nor capable of punishing them I must say it and I say it with commiseration to the Condition of this Noble Lord that his Exceptions in Law are as weak as the Answers he has given to our Evidence We hope no doubt in Law remains with you and that we have given your Lordships full satisfaction of the reality of the Plot and a convincing Evidence of the great share which my Lord Stafford had in it and we humbly pray your Lordships Justice Lord High Steward You do not take notice of one thing that my Lord Stafford said this morning That is that the Witnesses are not competent Witnesses because they swore for Money and that is fit to be spoken unto not for the Weight of the Objection so much as for the Satisfaction of the Auditory Sir Francis Winnington My Lords I had taken a Note of that but forgot to mention it If my Lord at the Bar will say they have taken Money to swear that is purely a Matter of Fact which he ought to prove and that which is said and not proved ought to go for nothing let him prove his Case to be so and then we will give him an Answer Lord High Stward My Lord Stafford if your Lordship can prove that they have had Money to swear your Lordship urges that which will be material but if it were only Money to maintain them that sure will amount to no Objection Lord Stafford My Lords I submit it to your Lordships whether Dr. Oats and the rest have not had great Sums of Money besides their Charges 10 l. a week a piece But I desire your Lordships to consider and I appeal to many of your Lordships whether it has not been said that it was a defect in Coleman's and Langhorn's Trials that they did not plead that and if they had pleaded it they must have been acquitted I will name no body but I appeal to your Lordships whether some of you have not said so But I desire your Lordships to admit me to plead by my Counsel if not I submit to you I confess here is a piece of Law that I never heard of before that the House of Commons and your Lordships at a Conference have adjudged it to be the Law of Parliaments that Impeachments shall continue from Parliament to Parliament If you will please to hear my Counsel for me so if not I submit Lord High Steward What would you or can you prove Lord Stafford My Lords Those things that I have given in to your Lordships I desire my Counsel may be heard to Lord High Steward Gentlemen what can you object why he should not have Counsel to argue his Objections in Law Sir William Jones My Lords I do think under favour if a Prisoner in a Capital Cause do desire Counsel he must not only alledge matter of Law to introduce that Desire but that which he doth alledge must be also a matter of some Doubt to the Court For if he do alledge matter which in it self is not Disputable he shall have no Counsel allowed him If your Lordships are not satisfied that it is the Law of your House that Proceedings upon Impeachments do continue from Parliament we cannot answer that it lies in your Lordships breasts it is not what we are to argue because it is a matter that concerns the Law and Rules of Parliaments Is there my Lords any doubt of any other Point that is urged Is there any doubt of this thing whether if one Witness speak to one point of Fact and another to another upon the same sort of Treason but that
these be two such Witnesses as the Law requires I pray then my Lords consider the consequence of that doubt A man shall talk with twenty Persons about a Design to kill the King in one and the same Room one after another by taking them into a Corner singly and if ten or all twenty come to prove it here is but one Witness to each Discourse This would be a matter of dangerous Consequence but I hope will remain no manner of doubt with you nor is it fit to be argued As to the Hiring of Witnesses to Swear I think that can be no point of Law till it be so proved in Fact Doth his Lordship think that when His Majesty out of His Grace and Bounty allows a Maintainance to His Witnesses that that is an Objection to their Testimony Doth not every man allow his Witnesses a a Maintainance and yet it never was thought a thing to take away their Evidence It may be every one doth not give so large an allowance as the King because his Dignity is not so great But can it be an Objection to the House of Commons Have we that are the Prosecutors maintained them If His Majesty have been bountiful to His Witnesses what is that to this Cause of the Commons If my Lord can prove any thing of Bribery in us as he has proved for us against himself it may be an Objection But till that Fact be proved I hope there is no ground for a Question in Law and if there be no doubt in Law I hope there will be no need of Counsel Lord High Steward My Lord Stafford What are the Points you would have Counsel too Lord Stafford To all of them my Lords Lord High Steward Would you have Counsel to the first Point to argue what the Law of Parliaments is concerning the continuance of Impeachments from Parliament to Parliament Lord Stafford My Lords if you will declare the Law to be as these Gentlemen say I must acquiesce Lord High Steward Pardon me my Lord I do not declare the Law but ask you whether you would have Counsel to argue that Point Lord Stafford My Lords I do say there is no Example of it I know there have been Impeachments but no Examples of Impeachments continued from Parliament to Parliament Lord High Steward Then in the next place for I shall propose your Objections to their Lordships by and by and desire their Judgment in them Do you desire to argue by your Counsel that every Overt Act ought to be proved by two Witnesses Lord Stafford I do my Lords I desire my Counsel may be heard to all the Points I mentioned to your Lordships Lord High Steward Have you Counsel ready to speak to these Points now Lord Stafford Yes my Lords Lord High Steward Are they prepared to speak to them now Lord Stafford They are my Lords Lord High Steward If they be so what hurt will there be in hearing of them Sir William Jones My Lords Whether you will hear an Argument from Counsel about the Law of Parliaments I hope you will please well to consider Sir Fran. VVinnington My Lords We in the House of Commons do never suffer any Counsel to tell us what is the Course of our House and the Law of Parliaments if your Lordships think fit to allow it 't is in your own power but we who are intrusted with the Management of this Cause by the House of Commons have no direction to consent to such a thing Lord High Steward We will hear Counsel to save time upon that Point whether in proof of a Treason for killing the King every Overt Act ought to be proved by two Witnesses Sir William Jones If your Lordships make a doubt of it Sir Fran. Winnington And if the Prisoner desire it Mr. Serjeant Maynard My Lords We shall not oppose it but I shall wonder if any Counsel do maintain it Lord High Steward Are your Counsel ready to speak to that Point Lord Stafford Here they are my Lords Mr. Wallop of the Middle-Temple Mr. Saunders of the same Society and Mr. Hunt of Gray's Inn appeared by the Prisoner at the Bar as his Counsel Mr. Wallop May it please your Lordships we are here commanded by your Lordships to Attend that if any matter of Law do arise upon a Case proved agreed and judged by your Lordships debateable then in due time we are to conform our selves to your Lordships command and argue those Points for my Lord the Prisoner at the Bar. But if your Lordships do think that the Points urged by my Lord are not debateable in Law I have so high an Opinion of your Lordships Judgment and such a mean opinion of my own Talent that I shall not undertake to Argue Extempore in this great Assembly in a Cause of so high a Nature Lord High Steward Look you Sir you are of my Lords Counsel Mr. Wallop I am my Lords and by the Order of your Lordships do attend here Lord High Steward If you think it an arguable Point you will have the Judgment of my Lords afterwards Will you argue it now Mr. VVallop My Lords I always thought if a Point be stirred in any Court and thought disputable it should be stated and agreed before it be argued Lord High Steward You are to argue for my Lord and to know the Judgment of the Court afterwards would you know our Opinions before hand Mr. VVallop We would know what it is we are to argue if your Lordships please Lord High Steward Why if you are provided for it you are to maintain that by Law every Overt Act ought to be proved by two Witnesses if you are prepared speak to it and my Lords will hear you Mr. VVallop It is true my Lords there have been some publick Resolutions concerning that Point therefore I shall be the warier what I say in that But my Lords it is a matter that has been thought of great import one way or other but I do profess at this time I am not able to undertake a Solemn Argument upon that Point Lord Stafford My Lords I am so far from delaying this Cause that I desire it may be argued now Lord High Steward Then you are not ready to speak to it Mr. VVallop No my Lords I am not for my own part at present for it is impossible we should foresee what would be the Point and to apply our selves to study an unforeseen Case before it be agreed stated and judged worthy of Argument cannot be expected from us I have always observed it in the King's-Bench If the Prisoner urge any thing and the Court think it debateable they first agree and state the Case then Assign Counsel whom they do not urge to deliver an Opinion presently but give them time to prepare for it Lord High Steward Mr. VVallop it is not believed that this Point is moved but by your Advice that are of my Lord's Council and you should be ready to maintain the Advice you give
therefore if you are so speak You have the Protection of the Court for the Counsel you give in matter of Law and whatever Advice you give you should maintain by Law Mr. VVallop Truly my Lords it is a Point that has as I said before received some Settlement but whether ever in this Court or no I cannot tell Therefore I did discharge my thoughts of providing any Argument till your Lordships should have determined whether you will take the Point upon the Resolutions in the Courts below to be finally settled and determined Sir William Jones So then it is agreed to be settled in the ordinary Courts Lord Stafford I desire also it may be argued whether words are an Overt Act. Sir Francis Winnington It seems the Law is with us in case of a Commoner but whether it be so for a Lord is the Question Lord High Steward My Lord Stafford How comes it to pass that your Lordship came prepared with Objections but not with Counsel ready to argue them Lord Stafford Mr. Wallop has given you an Answer I must stand by that Lord High Steward Is it your Lordships pleasure that we Adjourn Lords Ay Ay. Lord High Steward This House is Adjourned into the Parliament Chamber Then the Lords returned to their House in their Order and the Committee of Commons staid in their Places to attend their Resolutions In one hours time the Lords returned and my Lord High Steward being seated upon the Woolpack Silence was proclaimed Lord High Steward My Lord Stafford My Lords since they have been withdrawn have considered of one Point of that point chiefly which your Lordship did move touching the necessity of two Witnesses to every Overt Act alledged as Evidence of High Treason that is the point you have desired Counsel to speak to and that is the point your Counsel desired to know whether it was a doubtful or debateable point before they would argue it and hereupon my Lords did withdraw to consider it And my Lords have directed that all the Judges that assist them and are here in your Lordships presence and hearing should deliver their Opinions whether it be doubtful and disputable or no. Then all the Judges consulted privately together and afterwards gave their Opinion Seriatim beginning with the Lord Cbief Justice North the Lord Chief Justice Scroggs being absent Lord Chief Justice North. My Lords I do here deliver my Opinion and I am cleà r in it That if there be several Overt Acts or Facts which are Evidences of the same Treason if there be one Witness to prove one such Overt Act at one time and another Witness to prove another Overt Act at another time both the Acts being Evidences of the same Treason these are two sufficient Witnesses of that Treason and will maintain an Indictment or an Impeachment of Treason I never knew any doubt made of it in any Inferiour Court of Justice and I have known it often resolved Lord Chief Baron Montague My Lords where ever Treason is to be proved to every Overt Act two Witnesses as I conceive are not required If so be there are two Witnesses to several Overt Acts conducing to a proof of the same Treason I think they are Witnesses in the Judgment of the Law such as the Statute requires Mr. Justice Windham I am of the same Opinion with my Lord Chief Justice North and my Lord Chief Baron That if there be several Overt Acts done at several times tending to the same Treason these several Acts being severally proved by several credible Witnesses though but by one Witness at each time to each Act the said several Acts being Evidences of the same Treason these are sufficient Witnesses of that Treason so proved and will maintain an Indictment or as I conceive an Impeachment Mr. Justice Jones My Lords if several Witnesses speak to the same kind of Treason although they speak to several Overt Acts and give Evidence of several times the one of them speaking to one time and the other to another time yet keeping still to the same kind of Treason they are such two Witnesses as are required by the Statute of Edward the 6 th and this I do take to be the constant Opinion of the Courts below Mr. Justice Dolben My Lords I am of the same Opinion and I know it hath been many times so resolved I have been present when Sentence hath passed upon Persons by whom the same Case hath been urged and it hath been so resolved And it hath been moved in Westminster-Hall and that was the constant Opinion of the Judges there particularly in the Case of Sir Henry Vane It was upon solemn Debate resolved and divers times it hath been held that the same Treason may be proved by two Witnesses to several Overt Acts though one speak of Words or Actions that were spoken or done at one time and in one place and another speak of Words or Actions at another time and in another place those are two good Witnesses in Treason within the intent of the Law and if the Law were otherwise 't were scarce possible to convict any man of Treason and therefore I take it to be very clear Mr. Justice Raymond I am of the same Opinion That where several Cirstances are brought to prove the same Treason one Witness to each of the several Circumstances is sufficient and this I conceive hath been always the Opinion of the Judges Mr. Baron Atkins My Lords I am of the same Opinion That there must be two Witnesses in the Case of Treason is a matter without Question but there are several Overt Acts that may contribute to the effecting of that Treason If a man designs to kill the King and buyes Powder at one place at one time and a Pistol at another place at another time and promises a Reward to one to assist him to do the thing at a third place and a third time these are several Overt Acts but if the Law requires that each be proved by two Witnesses I do not well see how any man can be Convicted of Treason In the Case of Sir Henry Vane and others this very Question was started but was not thought worthy of Debate if it should be otherwise it would touch the Judgments which have been given upon this kind of Proof and what would the Consequence of that be but that those persons who were Executed upon those Judgments have suffered illegally And therefore I am of Opinion that it is not requisite there should be two Witnesses to every Overt Act. Mr. Baron Gregory My Lords I am of the same Opinion it is Treason to Conspire the Death of the King Now each of the Witnesses is a Witness to prove that Treason the one says he offered him such a Reward in such a place that is one Witness to prove that he Conspired the Death of the King and another says that he offered him such a Reward in another place that is another Witness that he Conspired the
Death of the King For the Party is indicted upon one particular Overt Act but he is indicted for Treason in Conspiring the Death of the King and each of thâ— Witnesses being to prove that though they speak to several Acts they are good Witnesses according to the Law Mr. Baron Weston My Lords I am of the same Opinion with my Reverend Brethren who have spoke before me Mr. Justice Charlton My Lords I am of the same Opinion and I think truly it would be the easiest matter for a man to Commit Treason and escape without questioning if it should be otherwise But this is the first time that I have heard it hath been made a Question that to the same Treason there must be two Witnesses to every Overt Act. It hath been adjudged always according to the Law that to prove Treason there must be two Witnesses but to any Overt Act there needs but onâ— Lord High Steward My Lord Stafford By the uniform Opinion of all my Lords the Judges there is no colour to doubt the Law in that point which you desire to argue So that as to that point you must rest satisfied you are not to have Counsel to speak to it For the rest I have no Commission yet from my Lords to say any thing Lord Stafford Will your Lordships give me leave to say one thing to what I have heard I would answer if I might only to one Judge I think they call him Judge Atkins Lord High Steward Your Lordship may say what you please Lord Stafford My Lords I hear a strange Position I never heard the like before in my life and 't is what he said if I am in the wrong I beg your Lordships pardon and his too He told your Lordships the Reason why the Law should be so was because else a great many of those persons that have already been Executed must have been acknowledged unjustly cut off and put to Death that is an Argument I hope will not weigh with your Lordships or any body for 't is better that a Thousand persons that are Guilty should escape than that one Innocent person should die much more then that it should not be declared that such a Judgment was not well given Lord High Steward Look you my Lord where many Reasons are given 't is easie to make a Reply to one of the least among many that was one Reason given but the true Reason is this if the Law were otherwise there would be great safety in Conspiring the Death of the King Lord Stafford My Lords I say nothing further as to the rest but this stuck with me I am sorry to hear a Judge should say any such thing and though I am in such a weak and disturbed Condition I assure your Lordships my Blood rises at it Lord High Steward Is it your Lordships pleasure that we should Adjourn Lords Ay Ay. Lord High Steward Then this House is Adjourned into the Parliament Chamber The Lords withdrew in their Order and the Committee of Commons went back to their House Mr. Speaker resumed the Chair A Message was sent from the Lords by Sir Timothy Baldwyn and Sir Samuel Clarke Mr. Speaker The Lords have sent us to acquaint this House That they have ordered William Viscount Stafford to be brought again to the Bar in Westminster-Hall on Munday morning next at Ten of the Clock After which the House of Commons Adjourned to Eight of the Clock on Munday morning The Sixth Day Munday December 6. 1680. ABout the hour of Eleven in the morning the Lords being Adjourned into Westminster-Hall going thither in their former Order into the Court there Erected and Mr. Speaker having left the Chair the Committee of Commons were Seated as before The Court being Sate Proclamation for Silence was made and the Lieutenant Commanded to bring his Prisoner to the Bar which being done the Lord High Steward began Lord High Steward Read my Lord Stafford's Petition To the Right Honourable the Lords in Parliament Assembled The humble Petition of William Viscount of Stafford Humbly shewing unto your Lordships that he hath some things to offer unto your Lordships in order to clear himself which he hopeth to do Your Petitioner doth therefore with all humility most humbly beseech your Lordships to give him leave to offer some things unto your Lordships Consideration And your Petitioner shall ever pray c. Stafford Lord High Steward My Lord Stafford my Lords have been willing upon your Petition to come and hear what that is that your Lordship hath to offer And they would know whether it be matter of Fact or matter of Law For your Lordship must know that as to Witnesses the Process is closed Lord Stafford I do not pretend any more Witnesses my Lords Lord High Steward Then my Lord what is it that you would say Lord Stafford My Lords I did Yesterday receive an Order from your Lordships and upon that and some other things that I have to trouble your Lordships with I did petition for this favour which I humbly thank your Lordships for granting If I be impertinent I shall beg your Lordships pardon and I hope you will be pleased to consider my Weakness at all times especially in this condition I am now in but I hope by your Lordships favour to be in an happier one quickly For the matters of proof I shall offer not a tittle but my Lords this Order which I received does say That the Lords Assembled in Parliament have ordered that my Counsel shall not be heard touching the continuance of Impeachments from Parliament to Parliament but I hope my Lords you will please without Offence to let me offer to your Lordships my own Conceptions about it which I shall do as briefly as I can My Lords I do not conceive by this Order That your Lordships say it does or it does not continue You have given no Judgment as I know of in it when you have I shall acquiesce but I hope your Lordships will resolve that it does not And my Lords my reasons for it are two the first is because one of the Managers for the House of Commons as I take it Sir William Jones said these words and your Lordships may remember them That if there were no such President your Lordships would make a President whether you will or no that I must submit to your Lordships but then there is none yet The next thing is my Lords this whether an Impeachment be to be prosecuted in Parliament without an Indictment this my Lords I humbly hope your Lordships are resolved it ought not For I see not how truely my Lords it can be by the little reading which I have had in the Law I never found any man prosecuted in a Legal way but by an Indictment I may be mistaken and I beg your Lordships pardon for troubling you with my mistakes but I never read of any that were prosecuted upon an Impeachment so then the Legal usual word being Indictment
to give some Reasons to your Lordships why those Laws that were against them should be repealed as well Protestant Dissenters as those of the Church of Rome and why they should have some kind of Toleration among whom you did permit those of the Romish Religion to appear too I forget their Names And I remember particularly one of the forts of them an Anabaptist I think did urge for a Reason that which is a great truth that they held Rebellion to be the Sin of Whitchcrast I believe it is as bad as any Sin can be My Lords that came to nothing at that time but my Lords I believe that after that all of all Religions had Meetings among themselves to endeavour to get that Toleration which they proposed humbly to your Lordships there I will never deny my Lords that my Opinion was and is that this Kingdom can never be happy till an Act of Parliament pass to this Effect it was my Opinion then and I did endeavour it all I could that the Dissenting Protestants might have a Comprehension and the other a Toleration I acknowledge it to be my Intention and I think it was no ill one for if that be a true Copy of the Commons Votes which is in Print there is some such thing designing there as a Comprehension and I was of Opinion that it were sufficient that such as were of the Church of Rome might by Act of Parliament serve God in their own Houses and privately in their own Way not in publick and that for it they should pay something to the King out of their Estates but truly not much That they should be severely punished if they or any of them did endeavour to persuade any Subject to their Opinion or did come to Court or enjoy any Office whatsoever though it were but that of a Scavenger but that they should pay their proportion to all chargeable Offices That I profess my Lords was my Opinion and I confess to your Lordships 't is so still I was in some hopes that it would have been done in that Sessions because I was afraid it was unlikely to be done at any time else I confess to your Lordships I was heartily and cordially against the Test because it hindred those just and honest things that were for the Good of the Kingdom My Lords there was the first or or the second Day brought into your Lordships House the Record of Mr. Coleman's Tryal and for the Letters in it I do my Lords declare to your Lordships I never read of one of them before but I have read them since they have been in Print And when I read them first cursorily over my Opinion was and is That Coleman's endavouring by Money out of France and keeping off the Parliament to get a Toleration was that which he could not justifie by Law how fat it was Criminal that I do not know I am not so skilled in the Law I think it was not justifiable but he hath paid for it severely since My Lords I do declare that ever since I had the Honour to fit among your Lordships which is now 40 Years for in the Year 1640. I was by His Majesties favour called up a Peer I have valued my self upon the Honour of sitting with you and I do declare when I have sat in this House when your Lordships have desired the King when it was hot weather and unseasonable to put off the Sitting of the Parliament I was never glad of it but sorry when they were prorogued but for a short time This I profess is true and I hope I am no Criminal in it for I do value the Parliaments Sitting to be the only means to keep this Kingdom quiet My Lords 'T is very true by Coleman's Letters and what I have seen in print since I do believe there have been some Consultations for a Toleration and if I had known as much then as I have since I have been in the Tower I had perhaps prevented many things for my Lords I hold England to be a great and an happy Body but it is as other great Bodies are it may be now as you know before it was over-grown or sick it was then and I pray God it be not now but I hold nothing can cure it but that old English Physician the King your Lordships and the Commons in Parliament assembled But if I had known any such Design as Coleman's Letters do hint I would not have continued in England My Lords For that damnable Opinion of King-killing if I were of any Church whatsoever and found that to be its Principle I would leave it My Lords this is as true as I can speak any thing in the world I beg your Lordships pardon for troubling you with my impertinencies and hope you pardon it to my weakness My Lords I do profess before Almighty God and before your Lordships my Judges I know no one tittle nor point of the Plot and if I did I hold my self bound to declare it For the present I shall say little more unless the Managers give me occasion if they will reply and make any Objections I desire I may answer them I know the great disadvantages I am under when these Gentlemen who are great Scholars and Learned Men reply upon me who have those great helps of Memory Parts and Understanding in the Law all which I want And therefore I hope your Lordships will dot conclude me upon what they or I have said but will be pleased to debate the matter among your selves and be as well my Counsel as my Judges My Lords when I offer to your Lordships matter of Law I did in no wise admit the matter of Fact Lord High Steward My Lord I cannot hear you Lord Stafford My Lords if your Lordships please that Paper may be read Lord High Steward Deliver your Paper in my Lords cannot hear Lord Stafford I cannot â—eny to your Lordships that what happened to me on Saturday night disturbed me very much Every day since I came â—â—ther there hath been such shouting and houting by a Company of barbarous Rabble as never was heard the like I believe but it was at a distance most of the time and so it did not much concern me But Saturday night it was so near and so great that really it hath disturbed me ever since it was great to day but at a distance if it were not thus I should not offer a Paper to be read I scarce know what I do or say considering the Circumstances I am in Lord High Steward Take my Lords Paper and read it Sir Thomas Lee. My Lords I desire you will please to consider whether this may not introduce a new Custom by reading of this Paper As to what my Lord is pleased to say I am sorry for the occasion that any disturbance should arise to my Lord from the Rabble or any one else I hope his Lordship believes we cannot help nor do we contribute to that
disturbance But we desire your Lordships to consider whether this practise of having things written down for the Clerk to read may not introduce a Custom which may in time grow inconvenient for future Example I see no great danger in the particular Instance before your Lordships now but it is dangerous in such Cases to do any thing that is new in this Court Lord High Steward All the matter is whether it be read by my Lord who cannot be heard or read by the Clerk Sir Thomas Lee. We only oppose it out of fear of making a President which may be of ill consequence Lord High Steward Read it my Lord and raise your voice for it concerns you to speak out Lord Stafford Reading out of his Paper My Lords when I offered Matter of Law to your Lordships on Saturday last I did in no wise admit the Matter of Fact to be true that was alledged against me and so I desire to be understood And I hope your Lordships will not lay the less weight upon the Testimony of my Witnesses because they are not sworn for the Law does not suffer them to be sworn which is no fault of mine nor ought not to turn to my Prejudice I must appeal to your Lordships Judgments in point of Fact how far the Kings Witnesses are to be believed against me considering the whole matter and my Counter-proof Next I submit to your Lordships Judgments this point That the Impeachment being founded upon the Common Law and the Statute of 25 th Edw. 3. and not upon the Statute of 13 th of this King two of the Witnesses Dugdale and Turbervill do only swear Treasonable words spoken by me and not my Overt Act for they swear only that I promised them Money and Rewards to kill the King Now I humbly pray your Lordships Judgment whether bare speaking of words be an Overt Act and Treason at the Common Law or upon that Statute and whether there be more than speaking of Words in a Consult or otherwise proved by Dugdale and Turbervill I appeal to you then the other Witness Oats is but a single Witness who speaks of the receiving of a Commission This is that I offer to your Lordships now for your Judgments and then I desire I may have your Opinion in other things Lord High Steward Is this all your Lordship hath to say Lord Stafford For the present my Lords Lord High Steward You must say all you have to say now Lord Stafford Is it your Lordships pleasure to hear Counsel to nothing at all I did likwise alledge to your Lordships th' other day that People that swear for Money are not competent credible Witnesses how far that was proved or I may prove by my Counsel I submit to your Lordships Lord High Stewared Look you my Lord you have so far received already the pleasure of the House You have raised several Questions of Law whether every Overt Act require two Witnesses to prove it You have had the Opinion of the Judges and there is no more to be said in it As to that whether Impeachments continue from Parliament to Parliament and the other thing whether Proceedings may be upon an Impeachment without an Indictment these are matters of the Course and Constitutions of Parliaments my Lords will consider of them by themselves and will permit no Counsel to argue them For the other Point That words are no Overt Act that rests for their Opinion in another Case when it shall come for they have now no such Case before them Lord Stafford Thumbly conceive there is Lord High Steward There is a great difference between bare words being an Overt Act and perswasion by Promises of Money and Rewards to kill the King which is a very great Overt Act. Lord Stafford Is it possible to do an Act by Words If it be so I never heard it before Lord High Steward Otherwise men may promise Rewards to â—0 several persons to kill the King and then say 't is all but Words Lord Stafford I say it not but I humbly conceive the Law says it Lord High Steward What say you Gentlemen of the House of Commons Lord Stafford My Lords I have something to say which I desire to speak first My Lords I hope I have cleared to your Lordships that all the Witnesses have swore false against me and this I have made out by Proofs I say not much to that My Lord was searching for his Papers Truly my Lords I am confounded with the Noise and other Circumstances but my Lords I shall if your Lordships please to give me leave humbly represent my Case to you how I take it to be in matter of Fact as to my own Condition not any thing but how I am now before your Lordships I was my Lords committed by my Lord Chief Justices Warrant on the 20. or 21. of October 78. Friday the 25. of October I was brought to your Lordships Bar I was Impeached I do not remember the day my Lords the beginning of December in one Parliament Articles exhibited against me in another Parliament I was brought upon these Articles exhibited and being called to your Lordships Bar the Articles were read to me and I gave in my Answer that was sometime in May 79. and in the end of May the 27. if I mistake not if I do I desire it may be rectified by your Books I with the other Lords were brought to this place in order to our Trial. We staid some time there and then were remanded by your Order to the Tower where I continued till November twelve month after without having heard any thing concerning it so that I was first Impeached in one Parliament Articles brought against me and pleaded to in a second and now brought to my Trial in a third and what your Lordships will say upon this I submit to you and whether these be Proceedings according to Law your Lordships will judge My Lords I humbly conceive that Magna Charta says That Justice shall be denied nor delayed to no man whether it hath not been delayed to me let your Lordships judge If you say the Prorogation of the Parliament is the cause of that delay I hope your Lordships will give me leave to say That from the 5. of December to the 30. when the first Parliament was Prorogued or during the Session of the other Parliament there was time enough sure wherein I might have been brought to my Trial and if these proceedings be lawful and just there is no man living but may be kept off from time to time till some Accidents happen that their ends may be gained I leave it to your judgment whether it may be only my Case now or of some of your Lordships in future Ages to be accused of things that you never heard of before and not brought to justifie your selves but kept in Prison My Lords There is a Statute I have forgot where it is but such a one I have read that though
Rabble Lord High Steward Is it your Lordships pleasure to Adjourn Lords Ay Ay. Lord High Steward Then this House is Adjourned to the Parliament Chamber Then the Lords withdrew in their former Order and the Committee of Commons went back to their House Mr. Speaker resumed the Chair A Message was sent from the Lords by Sir Timothy Baldwyn and Sir Samuel Clarke Mr. Speaker The Lords have commanded us to acquaint this House that they have appointed William Viscount Stafford to be brought to the Bar in Westminster-Hall to morrow morning at Ten of the Clock to receive Judgment The Commons Adjourned to Eight of the Clock the next Morning The Seventh Day Tuesday December 7. 1680. ABout the hour of Eleven the Lords Adjourned into Westminster-Hall going thither in their former Order into the Court there erected and Mr. Speaker having left the Chair the Committee of Commons were seated as before The Lords being sate Proclamation was made for Silence and the Lord High Steward being seated on the Wool-pack with Garter Principal King of Arms the Usher of the Black Rod Nine Maces attending him with all the rest of the Solemnity as was at first expressed took the Votes of the Peers upon the Evidence beginning at the Puisne Baron and so upwards in this Order the Lord Stafford being as the Law requires absent Lord High Steward My Lords I am an humble Suitor to your Lordships That you will give me leave to collect your Votes as I sit for I am not able to stand Which being granted the Lord High Steward proceeded Lord High Steward My Lord Butler of Weston Is William Lord Viscount Stafford Guilty of the Treason whereof he stands Impeached or Not Guilty Lord Butler Not Guilty upon my Honour The same Question was put to the rest whose Names and Votes follow Lord Arundel of Trerice Not Guilty upon my Honour Lord Crewe Guilty upon my Honour Lord Cornwallis Guilty upon my Honour Lord Holles Not Guilty upon my Honour Lord Wootton Not Guilty upon my Honour Lord Rockingham Guilty upon my Honour Lord Lucas Not Guilty upon my Honour Lord Astley Guilty upon my Honour Lord Ward Not Guilty upon my Honour Lord Byron Not Guilty upon my Honour Lord Hatton Not Guilty upon my Honour Lord Leigh Guilty upon my Honour Lord Herbert of Cherbury Guilty upon my Honour Lord Howard of Escrick Guilty upon my Honour Lord Maynard Guilty upon my Honour Lord Lovelace Guilty upon my Honour Lord Deincourt Not Guilty upon my Honour Lord Grey of Wark Guilty upon my Honour Lord Brook Guilty upon my Honour Lord Norreys Not Guilty upon my Honour Lord Chandos Guilty upon my Honour Lord North and Grey Guilty upon my Honour Lord Pagett Guilty upon my Honour Lord Wharton Guilty upon my Honour Lord Eure. Guilty upon my Honour Lord Cromwell Guilty upon my Honour Lord Windsor Not Guilty upon my Honour Lord Conyers Guilty upon my Honour Lord Ferrers Not Guilty upon my Honour Lord Morley Not Guilty upon my Honour Lord Mowbray Not Guilty upon my Honour Lord Viscount Newport Guilty upon my Honour Lord Viscount Faulconberge Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Conway Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Berkley Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Maslesfield Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Hallifax Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Feversham Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Sussex Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Guilford Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Shaftsbury Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Burlington Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Ailesbury Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Craven Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Carlisle Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Bath Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Essex Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Clarendon Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl of St Albans Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Scarsdale Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Sunderland Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Thanet Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Chesterfield Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Carnarvan Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Winchelsea Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Stamford Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Peterborough Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl Rivers Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Mulgrave Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Barkshire Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Manchester Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Westmorland Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Clare Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Bristol Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Denbigh Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Northampton Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Leicester Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Bridgwater Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Salisbury Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Suffolk Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Bedford Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Huntingdon Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Rutland Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Kent Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Oxford Guilty upon my Honour Lord Chamberlain Not Guilty upon my Honour Marquess of Worcester Not Guilty upon my Honour Duke of Newcastle Not Guilty upon my Honour Duke of Monmouth Guilty upon my Honour Duke of Albemarle Guilty upon my Honour Duke of Buckingham Guilty upon my Honour Lord Privy-Seal Guilty upon my Honour Lord President Guilty upon my Honour Lord High Steward Guilty upon my Honour Prince Rupert Duke of Cumberland Guilty upon my Honour Lord High Steward My Lords upon telling your Votes I find there are Thirty one of my Lords that think the Prisoner Not Guilty and Fifty five that have found him Guilty Serjeant make Proclamation for the Lieutenant of the Tower to bring his Prisoner to the Bar. which was done and his Lordship came to the Bar. Lord High Steward My Lord Stafford I have but heavy tidings for you your Lordship hath been Impeached of High-Treason you have pleaded Not Guilty my Lords have heard your Defence and have considered of the Evidence and their Lordships do find you Guilty of the Treason whereof you are Impeached Lord Stafford Gods Holy Name be praised my Lords for it Lord High Steward What can your Lordship say for your self why Judgment of Death should not be given upon you according to the Law Lord Stafford My Lords I have very little to say I confess I am surprized at it for I did not expect it but Gods will be done and your Lordships I will not murmur at it God forgive those that have sworn falsly against me My Lords I conceive I have something to say for respit of Judgment I have been at many Tryals in my Life but I never saw any Tryal where the party tried did not hold up his Hand which I was never asked to do I thought it had been a very material point in the Law That by the holding up of the Hand he might be known to be the Person I have read lately since I had the misfortune to be thus accused Sir Edward Coke upon the Pleas of the Crown and he says that Misnomer the not giving a man
his right name or addition is likewise a just Cause to arrest the Judgment There is likewise another Question how far it may be valued I know not I submit it as I do all to your Lordships Though I am tried upon the Act of 25 Edw. 3 d. yet there is nothing more in that Act than what is included in the Act of the 13 th of this King And I humbly conceive my Lords by that Act and the last Proviso in it a Peer that is accused and found Guilty of the Crimes therein mentioned is to lose his Seat in Parliament those are the words and since 't is so put down in the Act it is so to be understood and that is all the punishment And I humbly demand your Lordships Judgment upon these points whether it be so or no And humbly demand your Lordships Judgments upon these Points whether it be so or no Lord High Steward Has your Lordship any more to say Lord Stafford No my Lords I submit to your Lordships and desire your Judgment in these Points Then the Lords adjourned into the Parliament Chamber and the Committee of Commons returned to their own House and the Speaker having reassumed the Chair the whole Body of the House went with their Speaker to the Bar of the House of Lords to demand Judgment of High Treason against William Viscount Stafford upon the Impeachment of the Commons of England in Parliament in the name of the Commons in Parliament and of all the Commons of England The Commons with their Speaker went back to their House Then the Lords took into consideration what Judgment was to be given upon William Viscount Stafford and it was moved that he might be beheaded After some debate the Judges were asked whether if any other Judgment than the usual Judgment for High Treason were given upon him it would attaint his Blood The Judges were of opinion that the Judgment for High Treason appointed by Law is to be drawn hanged and quartered and in the Courts and Proceedings below they can take no notice of any Judgment for High Treason but that Then Sir Creswell Levinz the Kings Attorney-General desired to be heard on his Majesties behalf which the House gave leave for him to be who said he knew no other Judgment by Law for High Treason but Drawing Hanging and Quartering if any other Judgment were given it would be prejudicial to His Majesty and be a Question in the inferiour Courts as to his Attainder of High Treason Whereupon their Lordships ordered That the Lord High Steward do pronounce the ordinary Judgment of Death upon the Lord Viscount Stafford as the Law hath appointed in Cases of High Treason And a Message was sent to the House of Commons from their Lordships by Sir Timothy Baldwyn and Sir Samuel Clark Mr. Speaker We are commanded by the Lords to acquaint this House That their Lordships are going presently into Westminster-Hall to give Judgment against William Viscount Stafford Mr. Speaker left the Chair The Committee of Commons appointed for the Management of the Evidence against the Prisoner with the rest of the Commons went into Westminster-Hall to the Court there erected to be present when the Lords gave Judgment of High Treason against him upon the Impeachment of the Commons of England After a short time their Lordships were adjourned into Westminster-Hall coming in their former Order into the Court there erected where being seated and the Lord High Steward being on the Wool-sack attended by Garter principal King of Arms the Usher of the Black Rod Eight of the Serjeants at Arms kneeling with their Maces the Ninth Macer making proclamation for Silence which being done the Lord High Steward gave Judgment upon the Prisoner as followeth Lord High Steward My Lord Stafford THat which your Lordship hath said in Arrest of Judgment hath been found by my Lords upon due Consideration had of it to be of no moment at all It is no Essential part of any Trial That the Prisoner should hold up his Hand at the Bar there is no Record ever made of it when it is done the only use of it is to shew the Court who the Prisoner is when that is apparent the Court does often proceed against him though he refuse to hold up his Hand at the Bar therefore the omission of that Ceremony in this Case is no legal Exception as all the Judges have declared And as to the Proviso's in the Statute of the 13th year of this King their Lordships do find that they are in no sort applicable to this Case forasmuch as the Proceedings against your Lordship are not grounded upon that Statute but upon the Statute of the 25. E. 3. And yet if the Proceedings had been upon the latter Statute the Proviso's therein could have done your Lordship no service at all My part therefore which remains is a very sad one for I never yet gave Sentence of Death upon any man and am extremely sorry that I must begin with your Lordship Who would have thought that a person of your Quality of so Noble an Extraction of so considerable Estate and Fortune so eminent a Sufferer in the late ill Times so interested in the Preservation of the Government so much obliged to the Moderation of it and so personally obliged to the King and his Royal Father for their particular Favours to you should ever have entred into so Infernal a Conspiracy as to contrive the Murder of the King the Ruin of the State the Subversion of Religion and as much as in you lâ—y the Destruction of all the Souls and Bodies in three Christian Nations And yet the Impeachment of the House of Commons amounts to no less a Charge and of this Charge their Lordships have found you Guilty That there hath been a General and Desperate Conspiracy of the Papists and that the Death of the King hath been all along one chief part of the Conspirators Design is now apparent beyond all possibility of doubting What was the meaning of all those Treatises which were publisht about two years since against the Oath of Allegiance in a time when no man dreamt of such a Controversie What was the meaning of Father Conyers's Sermon upon the same Subject but only because there was a Demonstration of Zeal as they call it intended against the Person of the King which the scruples arising from that Oath did somewhat hinder To what purpose were all the Correspondencies with Foreign Nations The Collections of Money among the Fathers abroad and at home What was the meaning of their Governing themselves here by such Advices as came frequently from Paris and Saint Omers And how shall we expound that Letter which came from Ireland to assure the Fathers here that all things were in a readiness there too as soon as the Blow should be given Does any man now begin to doubt how London came to be Burnt Or by what ways and means poor Justice Godfrey fell And is it not
Stew. Do you live with him still Furnese Yes I do and have done this fourteen years L. H. Stew. What Country-man are you Furnese A Dutch-man L. H. Stew. Where born Furnese At Brussels Sir Franc. Winn. We would ask him what Perswasion or Religion he is of L. H. Stew. You may be sure of what answer you shall have Furnese I am a Roman Catholick L. Stafford That is as good as a Jew Mr. Treby The Question is not intended for any harm not with any purpose to criminate him 't is only in regard of his Credit in this matter L. H. Stew. Call another Witness my Lord. L. Stafford Where is George Leigh Who stood up L. H. Stew. How old are you Leigh I am about fifteen or sixteen L. Stafford My Lords I believe he is eighteen or nineteen Mr. Treby Whose servant is he L. Stafford He is my Servant he hath served me seven or eight years L. H. Stew. What does your Lordship call him for L. Stafford To tell you whether I bid my Servants to go out when Dugdale came in and whether ever he saw Dugdale and I alone L. H. Stew. George Leigh How long have you lived with my Lord Stafford Leigh Seven years the 10. of June last L. H. Stew. Why then you were but nine years old when you came to him Leigh No my Lords I think I was not L. High Stew. Do you remember when my Lord Stafford was at Tixall Leigh I do not remember the month very well L. H. Stew. Do you remember the time of the Race at Etching-Hill Leigh I do not remember the day but I was at it L. H. Stew. Did Mr. Dugdale come into your Lords chamber that morning Leigh I do not remember he was there that very morning L. Stafford Be pleased to ask him whether ever I bid him go out of my chamber when Dugdale was there L. H. Steward Did you ever see Dugdale any other morning in your Lords Chamber Leigh My Lords I think not I am not certain he was there one morning and it was about a Race but I am not certain what Race it was whether it was two Boys ran or two Men. L. H. Steward Did your Lord bid you go out of his Chamber Leigh No my Lords L. Stafford Dugdale says I often sent him for him pray ask him that Question L. H. Stew. My Lord this Boy does not remember that Dugdale at all was at your Chamber that time of the Race at Etching-Hill so that it is not material to the thing in question L. Stafford Yes my Lords Dugdale told your Lordships yesterday that I sent this Boy often for him L. H. Stew. Did ever this Boy come for you Mr. Dugdale Yes he hath I am sure come to my Chamber for me to go to my Lord. L. H. Stew. Were you sent for by my Lord more than once Mr. Dugdale Yes several times L. H. Stew. Before or after the Race Mr. Dugdale Both before the Race and after the Race L. H. Stew. By whom were you sent for Mr. Dugdale Sometimes by the Gentleman that was last examined and sometimes by this Boy L. H. Stew. Did you ever come from my Lord Stafford to bid Dugdale come to him Leigh My Lords I do not remember that ever I did L. H. Stew. 'T is an hard thing to remember so long L. Stafford If ever he came once to me and was alone with me I will be content to acknowledge all this to be true Pray ask the other man if ever I sent him for him L. H. Stew. He did testifie before that he came with him that day to your Lordships Chamber L. Stafford That day my Lords But he says other days I sent for him L. H. Stew. Call Furnese again Who stood up Furnese did my Lord Stafford ever send you for Dugdale either before or after the Race Furnese Never my Lords to his Chamber Lord High Stew. Did he ever in his life send you to Mr. Dugdale to speak with him as you remember Furnese Never my Lords L. Stafford He was my Lords such a Fellow I could not endure he should come near me such an Impudent lying Fellow L. H. Stew. Have you any more Witnesses my Lord. L. Stafford Yes a great many L. H. Stew. Call them all I pray Lord Stafford My Lords I hope you think I would not be so great and impudent a Fool to employ such a Fellow as this who not long after run away from my Lord Aston's L. H. Steward Who did Lord Stafford Stephen Dugdale And for that if you please I would call some Witnesses L. H. Stew. Call Furnese again who stood up Did you ever see Dugdale and my Lord Stafford together Furnese Never in my life L. H. Stew. Why you saw them together that morning you brought him to the Chamber Then the Auditory laughed Furnese Never alone L. Stafford I did not think I was in a Cock-Pitt or a Play-House But if your Lordships please to let me call my Witnesses to prove That Dugdale ran away from my Lord Aston I shall call for that Thomas Sawyer Who stood up L. H. Stew. What is your Name Witness Sawyer L. H. Stew. Your Christian Name Witness Thomas L. H. Stew. Who do you live withall Sawyer My Lord Aston L. H. Stew. Where do you live Sawyer At Tixall L. H. Stew. Are you my Lord Aston's Servant Sawyer Yes L. H. Stew. How long have you been so Sawyer Six years and ever since Michaelmas L. H. Stew. What have you to say Sawyer As to Dugdale's reputation I have this to say How that he went from my Lord Aston's for debt and was taken by the Watch at Heywood L. H. Steward When was that Sawyer The latter end of November or the beginning of December L. H. Steward What Year Sawyer 78. L. H. Stew. Then the Family broke up Sawyer And coming thither and being taken by the Watch he was brought by the Justices to Tixall and after the Justices had been with my Lord their resolution was to carry him to the Gaol So coming to Tixal where Dugdale was at an Ale house he desired me to go to my Lord and desire him that he would own him as his Servant for he was so much in debt that he should else be undone for ever In the mean time Mr. Philips the Parson of the Town had been with my Lord for Dugdale had desired him to go to him also and he asking me whither I was going said I I am going to my Lord from Dugdale to desire him to own him as his Servant said he I have been with my Lord just now and he said he will not own him as his Servant it was his own act and deed So Mr. Philips and I came back to him and told him So he sat down in the Chair and then rose up again and swore He would be revenged of my Lord Aston if ever it lay in his power Lord High Steward You never heard him say