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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A45154	A reply to the defence of Dr. Stillingfleet being a counter plot for union between the Protestants, in opposition to the project of others for conjunction with the Church of Rome / by the authors of the Modest and peaceable inquiry, of the Reflections, (i.e.) the Country confor., of the Peaceable designe.	Humfrey, John, 1621-1719.; Lobb, Stephen, d. 1699.	1681 (1681)	Wing H3706; ESTC R8863	130,594	165

enlighten the Reader concerning some momentous Instances I would have pass'd it by as deserving no farther Consideration 1. Every thing is said to be Misrepresented But how the Doctor 's own words should misrepresent his own sense is not overeasie to apprehend However Whether there be any Misreport I 'll leave it to the Impartial Reader and consider what Reply is made to what I offer'd in Answer to the Doctor 's Uncomely Accusation 2. He grants p. 38. That the Papists do not so much Envy and Malign the Episcopal Government Neither is it their Principle nor Interest to destroy it Why then should they be brought to act so contrary to their Principle and Interest as to destroy what they so much endeavour to preserve strengthen and establish But 3. He adds Though they are for Episcopacy yet they may design the destruction of a Protestant Episcopacy c. Reply I said That 't was not the Destruction of Episcopacy but the possessing themselves of our Bishopricks that they would be at which may be without any alteration of the Episcopal Constitution so far as 't is Episcopal His running then unto France is nothing to the purpose unless it may be looked on as an intimation of his good will to the Arbitrary proceedings of that Country However I 'le desire our Author to consider That a change of Persons without any alteration of the Episcopal Constitution may most effectually answer the end of the Jesuit For hereby they would be capacitated if ever a Popish Prince should come to the Crown to argue with the common people concerning the Unreasonableness of a separating from Rome from the same Topicks with the ●ean thus The Episcopacy is not pull'd down nor destroyed 't is rather strengthened and more firmly established There is not so vast a deference between the Church of England and the Church I do not say the Court of R●me as there is between the Romanist and the Factious Presbyterean behold you have your Bishops still in all their Glorious Vestments a Surpliced Cl●rgy an Excellent English Liturgy for the Papists in Dublin have their Mass in English which is exactly correspondent to the terms the Papists made the English in the days of Archbishop Laud If you submit to the one when Authority command you why will you not to the other What is the difference For this reason I cannot but be pretty confident that the Jesuits acting according to their own Principles and Interest receive greatest satisfaction from such as are most deeply engag'd to represent the Episcopal Constitution as one most Excellent and Admirable Do not the whole Land know what 't is that gives life unto Jesuitical hopes What are their designs and expectations from a Popish Successor and consequently how mischievous the Destruction of Episcopacy would prove unto that sort of People especially at this Juncture But I must not insist on this lest I be censur'd as an Addresser to the Lords and Commons to pull down Episcopacy a thing the Jesuit would not be at he being more unwilling than by argument unable to oppose it for which reason as our learned Author says Episcopacy is most easily defended against a Roman Catholick i. e. against one that hath no heart to oppose it But 4. Our Author would by all means perswade the world that the Dissenters cast the greatest Reproaches on the first Reformation because they manifest some dissatisfaction with such as impede a further Reformation as if a good work was as soon consummated as begun or as if it had been either impossible in it self or contrary to the design of the first Reformers to carry on the Reformation or as if the present Constitution of Episcopacy had been in every momentous respect as excellent as that begun in King Edwards days whereas 't is well known unto wise men and fully prov'd in my Epistle to the Reverend Dean that 't was impossible the Reformation should be finished as soon as 't was entred on and that the first Reformers in King Edwards days did more in six years than all their successors have since done in almost six-score All which is prudently past over by our Author 5. They stick much on that great Agreement there is between the Present and King Edwards Reformation as if we could not complain on the latter without reproaching the former But this is so weakly urg'd that any Reader of an ordinary capacity may see the vanity of this way of arguing for there is a great difference between that and this time what was almost impossible then might since be easily done But 2. 't is easie to demonstrate that the begun Reformation in King Edward the 6ths days was more excellent than the Present and that instead of carrying on the Reformation it hath been carried back to the great grief of sound Protestants This hath been in part prov'd when I did shew the Propension of Queen Elizabeth to favour Popery out of Dr. Burnet and Dr. Heylin two Sons of the Church though I fear the mentioning of the latter in Conjunction with the former may not be so meet the former being a through Protestant a man of great Worth but the heart of the latter towards Rome for which reason as their Principles are vastly different so should they be kept at a distance by me if Heylin had not acknowledged that to be a truth which I rather believe because found in the incomparable Dr. Burnet He now take notice of another considerable difference between the very Constitution of Episcopacy in King Edward the 6th's time and that in Queen Elizabeths The former was such as was inconsistent with the Popes Supremacy for they were to hold all their Courts in the Kings Name but the latter such as is most easily reduc'd to the exalting the Court of Rome The Government of the Church being taken from the Prince 't is not so difficult to fix it on the Pope Thus there is a difference between King Edwards and Queen Elizabeths Episcopacies I may also add That there is a great difference between the present Constitution and that in Queen Elizabeths if we may believe the Lord Treasurer Cecil who suggests that the Bishops did not look on their Superiority above their Brethren to be of Divine Right as the Dean of Pauls and his Substitute now do For this I will give you an account we have of the Speeches used in the Parliament by Sir Francis Knolles and after Written to my Lord Treasurer Sir William Cecil as I find it in the end of the Assertion To the end I may inform your Lordship of my dealing in this Parliament-time against the undue claimed Superiority of the Bishops over their Inferior Brethren Thus it was Because I was in the Parliament-time in the 25th year of King Henry the 8th in which time first all the Clergy as well Bishops as others made an humble Submission to King Henry the 8th acknowledging his Supremacy and detesting the Usurpation of the Bishop

concerning the constitutive Regent part of a National church whose existence must be acknowledged if a National church as such be a Governed church or a Body Politick but yet this cannot be found out For which reason they distinguish between a Governed Society and a Body Politick between a Governing and a Regent part and assert That the National church is a Govern'd Society but not a Body Politick that it hath a Governing but not a Regent part the like of an Universal church This is the true state of our Author's Judgment wherein we have an admirable account of the Gentleman 's acute distinguishing the excellency of which I 'll leave to the entertainment of his Admirers and if he please consider the Notion according to his own stating it that is to gratifie him I won't insist on the word Policy nor Regent nor constitutive Regent part but only on government Governours and Governed and so our Enquiry being about the Government of the Universal Church we must consider what is necessary thereunto and see whether what our Author asserts be agreeable unto such a constitution for if not so 't is far from Truth To consider what it is that is necessary to the constitution of any Governed Body that is what is so necessary that the absence thereof is destructive to the Constitution To this I Answer That a Governing and a Governed part is so necessary unto Goverement that where either one of these be absent there can be no Government A Governed Body cannot be without a Governing part neither can this be without a part Governed Government doth necessarily infer both these remove either one the Government is destroyed Government is a Relation resulting from that mutual respect the Governing and Governed parts have to each other whence as Sublato uno Relatorum tollitur alterum and where there is nor Subject nor Term i. e. nor Relate nor Correlate there can be no Relation Remove the Governing part from the Universal or National Church and the Government ceases Paternity may be where there is no Father assoon as Government without a Governing part Whence I infer That where there is a Fixed Government there must be a fixed Governing part This premised Let us next enquire whether or no what our Author asserts be suitable to this undoubted Rule Doth he shew us such a Governing part The Government is a constant fixed Government but where is the constant fixed Governing part 'T is a General Council saith he i. e. the universal Bishops in their Colledge assembled But is this a fixed Governing part Is it not evident to an ordinary capacity that the assembling such a Council of all the Bishops in the World is a difficulty insuperable and that without such an Assembly 't is impossible they should by joynt consent govern the Universal Church The astembling of the Catholick Bishops is as easie as the gathering together their consent per literas format as and much more conducive to the desired End because when assembled they can debate the matters before 'em and with the greater judgment give their determinations But 't is well known that had such an Assembly been possible yet the Church of God for the first 300 years had no such Assembly excepting that in the Apostles days i. e. it had no such Governing part which is as if it had been said There was no Government in the Universal Church the first 300 years To gratifie our Author Let us suppose that the Universal Church is as such a Governed Society and that it hath its Governours But though this be so yet it must be still acknowedged that a Governour cannot be without Power to Govern I would therefore beseech my Author to shew me What is that Power with which this Colledge of Bishops are invested Is it Legislative only or also Executive Whether the one or the other is it in the Colledge Subjectively and Formally or only in 'em as in fine seu regulante or supplente or How 'T would be necessary that our Author consult the Parisian Doctors if he will speak to the purpose when he espouses their Notion Let our Author assert as it pleaseth him at an adventure it matters not for his Notion is such as necessarily directs us to conclude what he must if he will be consistent with himself assert and that is this All Church-Government is Universal and as such it must be exercised no one being a Governour in the Church but he that is a Catholick Officer That the due course of exercising this Power is when it flows originally from the Head unto all its Members That it flows from the Invisible or rather unseen Head in Heaven immediately unto the visible Head on Earth is granted by all those who assert an Universal Church-Government though there is a Dispute among the Papists whether this Head be the Council or the Pope As it flows immediately from Christ to the visible Head so it proceeds from this visible Head unto the Patriarchs from thence to the Metropolitans from thence to the Diocesans For which Reason if any are injur'd by their Diocesan they may Appeal to their Metropolitan from thence to their Patriarch from thence to the Pope or Council This our Author must hold That there may be no wrong done the Little Ones of Christ if any be grieved by One he may Appeal unto an Higher till he comes unto the Highest Power on Earth from whence if he find not relief he must acquiesce leaving the whole to him who is in Heaven But if there be no constant visible Head actually existing where shall the grieved lodge his last Appeal The Dean's Substitute supposes an equality of Power in Patriarchs Metropolitans and Diocesans whence if his Diocesan doth abuse his Power he is not accountable to any Metropolitan nor Patriarch but only unto the Catholick Colledge The which being so 't will follow That Executive Power must be lodg'd in some Supreme Head Subjectively who can receive Appeals I say Subjectively or Formally and not only Virtually for 't is an Executive Power only that can relieve in this case which cannot Actually be where 't is only Virtually For which Reason 't is evident that according to our Author there must be a fixed Governing part invested with an Executive Power from whom relief is to be expected if at any time the Diocesan doth abuse his Power which Governing part must be either a Colledge of Bishops or one single Person And if the obtaining the former be as indeed 't is impossible the acknowledging the latter is necessary Thus we see how fairly this Gentleman at length leads us to Rome or some other Pope as the only necessary way of governing the Church In doing which he doth but carry on the Project of which Sir Francis Winnington takes notice at the Trial of the Lord Stafford when he assured the Lords That as an encouragement to the POPISH PLOTTERS there did appear in some men too easie

wait a while but at length humbly desire a Parochial Discipline instead of which they fall under the lash of new Impositions unto which they could not Conscienciously conform hence many Learned Jud●●●us Godly and Faithful Ministers are cast out even at such a time when the Church had but a company of Illiterate Fellows to officiate in Publick From whence proceedeth the First S●parati●n as appears from what the old Smith said in his Answer to the Bishop of London's charge where you will find that although they separated from the Church because their faithful Ministers were turn'd out yet they even then made it manifest That they left not the Liturgy because it contain'd Forms of Prayer for they made use of a Form at their Separate Meeting Take Smith's words in a part of the Register Indeed as you said even now for Preaching and ministring the Sacraments so long as we might have the Word freely Preached and the Sacraments administred without the preferring of Idolatrous gear about it we never assembled together in Houses But when it came to this point that all our Preachers were displaced by your Law that would not subscribe to your Apparel and your Law so that we could not hear none of them in any Church by the space of seven or eight weeks except Father Coverdale of whom we have a good opinion and yet God knows the man was so fearful that he durst not be known unto us where he Preached though we sought it at his house And then were we troubled and commanded to your Courts from day to day for not coming to your Parish-Churches Then we bethought us what were best to do and we remembred that there was a Congregation of us in this City in Queen Marys days and a Congreagation at Geneva which used a Book and Order of Preaching Ministring of the Sacraments and Discipline most agreeable to the Word of God which Book is allowed by that Godly and Well-learned man Mr. Calvin and the Preachers there which Book and Order we now hold And if you can reprove this Book or any thing that we hold by the Word of God we will yield to you and do open Penance at Paul's Cross if not we will stand to it by the Grace of God Thus no Parochial Discipline being admitted but those who desir'd it being Ejected even at such a time when those who remain'd in Publick for the most part were Illiterate and Vicious the Separation begun The Ejection of the Godly Now Conformists the Sensuality of the remaining Clergy was a great Cause of the first Separation and not without great Reason For it being as essential to every true Gospel-Minister that he Govern the Church of which he is a Pastor as that he teaches and instructs it the taking from 'em so essential a part of their Office which by woful experience has been of a very ill tendency could not but occasion the Old Nonconformists to manifest their dislike to such proceedings and refuse the giving in an Assent and Consent thereunto for which Refusal they being Ejected the multitude of such as remain'd being Illiterate yea and Vicious in their Conversations the more sober People withdrew from the Publick and run after the Ejected The Scandals of the Clergy having had no inconsiderable influence on the Separation For which consult the Learned Dr. Burnet who saith In the Sponsions made by the Priests they bind themselves to teach the People committed to their charge to banish away all erroneous Doctrines and to use both publick and private Monitions and Exhortations as well to the sick as to the whole within their Cures as need shall require and as occasion shall be given Such as remember that they have plighted their Faith for this to God will feel the Pastoral Charge to be a load indeed and so be far enough from relinquishing it or hiring it out to a loose or ignorant Mercenary These are the blemishes and Scandals that lye on our Church brought on it partly by the corruption of some Simoniacal Patrons but chiefly by the Negligence of some and the Faultiness of other Clergy-men Which could never have lost so much ground in the Nation upon such trifling accounts as are the contests since raised about Ceremonies if it were not that the People by such palpable faults in the Persons and behaviour of some Church-men have been possessed with prejudices first against them and then upon their account against the whole Church So that these corrupt Church-men are not only to answer to God for all those Souls within their charge that have perished through their neglect but in a great degree for all the mischief of the Schism among us to the nourishing whereof they have given so great and palpable occasion The importance of those things made me judge they deserved this Digression Having been thus large in removing the Mistakes the Dr's Substitute seem'd to lye under let the Sober Reader judge Whether 't is any way probable that the Jesuits had an hand in the first Separation or whether the pretence about Spiritual Prayer was any ground of their Separation that is Whether they were against a Form of Prayer crying down the English Liturgy with a Design of setting up Free and Spritual Prayer in its stead SECT II. The Designs of the Jesuit against a Prelatical Episcopacy found to be none Some Differences between the first Reformers and our Author A Letter of Sir Francis Knolles to the Lord Treasurer Cecil out of which 't is prov'd That there is a Difference between some old Queen Elizabeths Bishops and the Dean c. The Author's Pretences about Antiquity confuted out of Bishop Jewel HIS Reply to what I offer'd to the Dean's second Argument falls now under Consideration The Dean in representing the Dissenter to the great Disadvantage of the Party insinuates as if their opposing Prelatical Episcopacy had been the most effectual way to cast reproach on the first Reformers and to introduce Popery In Answer unto this I did First prove 1. That it was not the Principle nor the Interest of the Jesuit to destroy Episcopacy A Truth the Dean's Substitute doth not deny 2. That the Reputation of the first Reformation is not in the least blasted by the Dissenter which I evinc'd with so much Demonstration that the whole that is returned by way of Answer is His not believing some of those persons on whose Testimony I insisted though he gives no Reason for his Unbelief His proving what I granted and his Extravagant Interpreting an Argument brought to evince That 't was not the Jesuits Interest to destroy a Prelatical Episcopal Constitution to be an admirable Address to the Lords and Commons to pull down Bishops and divide their Lands All which is done partly in his Preface and partly in the first Chapter of his great Book to shew himself an excellent Methodist But the whole is so little to the purpose that if he had not given an occasion to

and the poor Church be left as destitute of Lands and Ornaments as when she came into the world in her natural Nakedness From these words of Heylin 't is evident That such as are of this Grotian Faction do reflect sufficiently on the Reformation then begun and also plainly enough suggest That if K. Edward had lived longer the Reformation had gone on further than you or your party desire it may be they would have gone on so far as those you now call Schismaticks If so how comes it to pass that the Dissenters by acting so agreeably to what King Edwards Protestants would have done cast any reproach on that so happily begun Reformation In fine It cannot but amuse wise men to observe how prudently Dr. Stilling fleet and his Substitute insist on the Dissenters subserviency to the Popish Interest Whereas 't is most manifest that the Papists themselves do with the greatest confidence conclude none more opposite nor more injurious to their Designs than the Dissenter However seeing one Dissenter spake but a word for the forbearance of a meer conscientious Papist this is enough to animate those Gentlemen to load the whole Party with the reproach of being great friends to Popery The which is the more remarkable because all this cry is even when a Son of the Church yea a Reverend Divine of that name hath written a Volume in favour of the Church though not of the Court of Rome without any notice taken of it And the Dean himself in that very Preface in which he so much declaims against the Dissenter doth speak much more in favour of the Papists than any Dissenter ever did for he himself asserts That it will be thought great hardship when mens heats are ever for them only viz. the Papists to be deprived of the liberty of their Consciences when the wildest Fanaticks are allow'd it p. 79. Moreover what is matter of greater surprise is That all this stir is rais'd from one word out of a Dissenters mouth even when great things have been done by some who pretend to be sons of the Church in favour of the Papist to the turning the edg of those Laws that were made against Papists on Protestant Dissenters without any remark as if it had been highly meritorious in a Church-man to act for all Papists in the general tho' an unpardonable crime in a Dissenter to speak but one word for the supposed conscientious only That some of the Church of England have acted in favour of all sorts of Papists to the advancing Popery is notorious as hath been observed by Sir Francis Winnington at the Trial of the Lord Stafford Another encouragement my Lord faith Sir Fr. W. which the Papists had was That by the means of those Ministers who were secretly of their Faction whenever his Majesty was pleased to command the Laws made against them in the Reign of Q. Elizabeth and K. James to be put in due execution his good intentions were frustrated and the severity of those Laws was turn'd upon the Protestant Dissenters This was a Master piece of Rome not only to divert from themselves the edg of those Laws which were design'd against them but to turn them upon the Protestants and to make them useful to advance the Romish Interest The same is also the sense of the Commons assembled in Parliament as is to be seen in their Address unto his Majesty November 29.1680 Where they declare unto his Majesty in these words At home if your Majesty did at any time by the advice of your Privy Council or of your Two Houses of Parliament command the Laws to be put in execution against Papists even from thence they gain'd advantage to their Party while the edg of those Laws was turned against Protestant Dissenters and the Papists escap'd in a manner untouch'd Thus many a Son of the Church have heretofore taken an especial care to turn the edg of Laws against Popery on the Dissenter But this is not speaking for a forbearance 't is but an actual affording forbearance to 'em all in general Of which one word must not be spoke As if such men as our Author would that all the Respects which are had for Papists must be confin'd to them who alone without offence may shew it ' em But 't is pretty evident that there are other Conformists of another mind as may appear by the Countrey-Conformists further Reply to this Defence or Vindication which we have received from him in these Sheets following and to which I refer my Reader FINIS Mr. PARK HURST HAVING information that you are Printing som Papers of others in Answer to the Defence of Dr. Stilling fleet I have thought fit upon advice to send you these three or four sheets to put in as one concern'd among the rest The young Hero that hath written this Defence hath treated his Antagonists with no less a supercilious contempt than the Dr. but he hath not written his Book with the like judgment and sense I cannot say that he hath in any thing confuted them but he doth grosly pervert their words and give them a meaning which is contrary to their intention and then drolls upon it and mightily pleases himself in his Victory and Success And this he hath done almost throughout his Book He that reads the Book and doth nor compare it with the Authors whom he pretends to Answer may perhaps think there is something in it But if he shall diligently do this he will alter his opinion I will instance in one particular Mr. Baxter among other things objects the renunciation of the Covenant for our selves and others when we know not their sense These last words he interprets of the Takers of that Covenant when Mr. B. meant it of the Imposers and no wonder then if he makes fine work of it The Author of the Reflections hath reason to take notice of these his dealings in this kind and I do foresee how he is like to fare again yet being one for whom I have so near a concern I cannot refuse a sheet or two having this intimation in his behalf especially seeing he is a Son of the Church and 't is convenient his Brethren should rightly understand him It is in the Preface I am engaged and p. 3. thus he begins The Countrey Conformist in his Reflections on Dr. Stilling fleet endeavours to excuse Mr. B. from intending the D. of St. Pauls in that lewd character that he gave of a m●st unskilful proud partial obstinate impertinent Adversary by making it the description of such Substitutes as had neither the Candor nor Learning of the Doctor He did so and how doth this Gentleman prove that he endeavoured it to no purpose Why even thus However any impartial Reader will see cause to believe that Mr. B. had the Dean in his eye tho' he had not courage enough to apply every thing to him but left his Readers to apply as much as they pleased To which I reply There