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B13698 A dialogue or conference betweene Irenæus and Antimachus, about the rites and ceremonies of the Church of England: by Samuel Gardiner, Doctor of Diuinitie Gardiner, Samuel, b. 1563 or 4. 1605 (1605) STC 11575; ESTC S102819 49,951 71

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diuided from the West about Leauen and Easter in all counsels continually new Creeds Decrees were coyned Of late yet the two names of Luther and Zwinglius haue made no small garboiles in the Church And the Papists would choake vs with this bone of our home-borne new-fanglenesse and factions But therein they pull themselues by the noses for I know no greater wranglers then themselues For their Scotists and Thomistes are together by the eares about the dunsicall distinction of Merits of Congruitie and Condignitie about originall sinne in the Virgine Mary about solemne and simple vowe The Canonists contend for auricular confession concluding it to bee Deiure humana positiua that it is of humane and positive constitution And the Schoole men squabble with them for it and auouch that it is Deiure diuino it hath foundation in diuine ordination Albertui Pigghius differ from Caietan Thomas from Lambard Scotus from Thomas Oceanus from Scotus Alliensis ●●●m Occan the Nominalls from the Realists How many dis●entions haue there beene among the Monkes and shauelings which some in fish some in flesh some in hearbes some in shooes some in slippers some in a linnen garment some in a woollen weede haue reposed religion while some would goe in blacke other in white others would be more broadly others more narrowly rounded and shauen others would be in their slippers and others go bare-foote others would be girt others would be loose Antim What of all this be the peoples mindes neuer so contentious we cannot be too religious we must therefore come as nie perfection as we can according to Christs precept Be yee perfect as your heauenly Father is perfect Iren. True but this your conformitie nothing derogateth from this your Christian perfection or profession but it will rather giue furtherance vnto it For it is a rule in Philosophie and reason Vis vnita fortior conioyned helpe is strongest Antim But how doe wee goe forward in this perfection when we keepe at a stay as the Sunne in Gibeon or the Moone in the valley of Aiaton in the daies of Iosua Iren. This stay is in yourselfe or rather your backwardnes that stop the course of your good proceedings in the singularitie of your affections The regions are not onely white vnto haruest but drie to the fire therefore we cannot labour too much in the Lordes haruest now you put your selfe to silence for these ceremonies Antim These ceremonies came in with the childhoode of the Church in the minoritie of it and the grace of them is gone now with the times Gal. 4. When I was a childe saith Saint Paul I did as a childe but since I was a man I did put away childishnesse And now seeing we know God or rather are knowne of God why turne ye then to the impotent and beggerly ceremonies of the law Iren. The godly fathers of the Church in the purest estate thereof commended them vnto vs and antiquitie a testimonie not to be reprehended hath confirmed them and euer there was good vse of them and neuer any harme in them Irenaus the antient father often appealed to those antient Churches that were nighest Christs times Antiquitie is the seale of the grace of the ceremonies as it is of sundry other things wine that is the oldest is best for no man that may haue olde wine will taste of new for he saith that old is better It graceth wisdome which is rather in the older then the younger sort weapons are for young men Prou. 22. and wisedome for the old It adorneth the truth for that is truest which is first and custome that is oldest is best approoued Wherefore it is prouided by law not to remooue the antient borders which our fathers haue placed And friendship that hath beene of longest continuance is of best countenance Eccli 9. Wherefore it is said Forsake not thine owne friend and the friend of thy father for a new friend will not be like him Olde trained and practised souldiers are more skilfull and coragious Wherefore C●ytus said to Alexander Doost thou despise thy father Philips Souldiers The landes and possessions that haue beene longest in the name and in the stocke is of chiefest reckoning Which respect was so great with Nabaoth as no money that the King could offer him could preuaile for the purchasing of it but he shooke him off with this absolute deniall 1. Kings 21. God keepe me from selling the inheritance of my Ancestors to them And this was Barzalia his plea to Dauid when he would haue induced him to liue in the Court with him I am fourescore yeeres old I will therefore goe into mine owne cittie and I will bee buried in the graue of my father and my mother Antim I perceiue that you are the ceremonies great maister and heerein you are not to be misliked that your nature is according to your name studious of the outward peace of the Church wherein I would concurre for peace sake with you but that these outward Rites are so offensiue to my conscience and verie zeale draweth my inclination from them to the other side Iren. You must not holde forth the target of Conscience to defend disorder your conscience and zeale must haue a good cause of its side or else it will be wrong with you I will not any way preiudice this your zeale and conscience but I must tell you this that the worst sort of all take vp this plea and allegation for themselues 2. Sam. 15. to shadow their nefarious and vngodly doings Absolon when hee went to proiect his rebellion made pretence and colour to his father of religion that he was to goe to performe his vowes to the Lord in Hebron 1. Sam. 15. Saul pretended conscience and zeale of sacrifice and obedience in reseruing the fattest cattell of the Amalekites when hee was most disobedient Math. 2. Herod seemed to be zealous to worship the child Christ when his meaning was contrary Iohn 12. vtterly to haue destroyed him Indas made as though conscience to the poore touched him when he murmured against the deuotion of the woman that brake the sweete and pretious box of ointment vpon the head of our Sauiour whenas he cared not a farthing for the poore but rauished and robbed them being a pursebearer and a pilferer The old Donatists in Augustines time made a conscience in breaking their owne neckes as our moderne Anabaptists that sprang out of them make it a matter of conscience of breaking the necke of the Churches gouernement Wherein Antimachus I doe not meane you or any of your fellowes God is my recorde yet I must needes say you beare them companie a mile or twaine in the way though there your discretion serueth you to leaue them There is zeale in you but yet it is such as somewhat beguileth you with a copie and countenance that it hath of the truth For as the wicked hang this maske and muffler before their eyes
not discerned which the vncreated Wisedome hath prouided for the good of all creatures which with a sodaine great mutation would not be alittle damnified Ars artium dsscsplina disciplinarum regere hominem saith Gregory Nazianzene It is an arte of all artes and a discipline of all disciplines to gouerne a people Nullum animal morosius est nullum maiori arte tractandum No creature is more froward than man and none is to be more politiquely handled Xenophon saith Seneca Facilius regere omnes alias creaturas quàm hominem It is casier to rule all creatures than man Nowe custome is an other nature with them and they easily doe that which they haue done alwayes but innouations will not be admitted without diuision and dissention wherefore prouidence and good heede is to be taken Cic. ad Attic libr. 11. Epist 19. as the Orator prescribeth in transposing lawes Vt quam minimo sonitit fiat That it may be doone with the least dinne and noyse that may be It is recorded of Augustus that hee compassed not all thinges that hee hadde plotted at the first but some things hee brought about presently the rest hee dispatched at his conuement time Antim But alittle to interrupt your counsell May not authoritie doe well to dispense with vs that are contrary minded for Conscience sake and so holde on the forme of Lawe in vse Iren. Aequalitaes prima pars aequitatis est saieth Seneca Seneca in epist The first and chiefe parte of Equitie is Equalitie There be many beside you that haue but small deuotion to some of the ceremonies did not publique lawe commend them and commaunde them And why should they be bound and you go free Such a dispensation would but breede more enny and diuision For if there were such heart-burning and affections in the brethren against Ioseph about a party-coloured garment do you thinke that there would not be oddes amongest vs in the difference of the garments while the one side take the other to be too Popish and the other the aduerse parte to be too peeuish I doe yeelde that there may be diuerse rites in diuerse Churches and that one may differ from another in gouernement As in Rome and Asia they vsually fasted euerie Sabaoth day but in Millaine they did not Aug. epist. 118. Policarpus and Anicetus kept the peace between themselues though the one woulde not yeelde to the other in ceremonies but each of them peremptorily maintained their owne customes but they were of seuerall Churches But my simple discretion can not see how it may stand with any conueniencie thar wee should haue a confected and compound estate of the Church that it should be as Bifrons Ianus beare two faces in one hoode and how such conniuencie and toleration should be any way tolerable It is the plea of the naturall mother before Salomons Tribunall That the childe should be in no wise diuided as the wrong mother woulde haue it but that shee might haue all or none at all I am the mouth of my brethren to our soueraigne Salomon that without partialitie euery one might be vnder lawe indifferently that as wee all of vs serue one Maister so that we may all of vs weare the like liuerie whether it be white or blacke we are indifferent as it pleaseth those that are at the sterne of gouernement whose wisedome wee knowe and whose trueth wee doe not suspect This was the cause that the Roman Empire continued so long and that in such prosperitie because the salte of Lavve seasoned all alike For as Epaminondas saith Then is peace established vvhen equalitie is preserued Cic. in A●● Morum similitudo coniungit amicitiam It is similitude of manners that ioyne friends together Wherefore Ius is called by the Orator Par Ci●er diuinat libr. 2. And this equalitie as saieth Euripides is the lavve of mankinde And this is my decision and determination of your latter question 5. Finally I conclude my counsell with my louing exhortation vnto you to entertaine these tolerable conditions for the peace sake of the Church vvhich we ought to put on as our own bowels vvhich is the sweete direction of the Apostle Paul I knovv not in how many places 1. Corint 1.10 as vvhen hee saieth I beseech you brethren by the name of our Lord Iesus Christ that yee all speake one thing and that there be no dissensions among you But be yee knit together in one minde and in one iudgement Rom. 15.5 Againe The God of patience and consolations giue you that yee be like minded one towardes another according to Christ Iesus That yee with one mind and with one mouth may praise God euen the Father of our Lorde Iesus Christ 2. Corint 13. Againe Liue in loue and peace and the God of peace shall be with you Againe Let your conuersation be as it becommeth the Gospel of Christ Philip. 1.27 that whether I come and see you or else be absent I may heare of your matters that yee continue in one spirite and in one minde fighting together through the faith of the Gospell Vnitie is the verie body of Diuinitie and the very scope and end of Christianitie vvhich vvhoso shall dissolue bringeth all things out of course For as the Apostle Paul disputeth it Ephes 4. We are all of vs but one joynt body vnder one head Christ Iesus one and the selfesame spirite quickeneth this body there is but one hope of our vocation one Lorde one faith one baptisme one God and Father of all vvhich is aboue all through all and in all It is all that Christ prayeth for to his Father for vs Iohn 17. when hee went to suffer Holy Father keepe them through thy name whome thou hast giuen mee that they may be one as wee are one And that no man should restraine this his prayer to the Disciples onely hee saieth immediately after I pray not for them onely but for those also that shall beleeue that they may be one as thou O Father in mee and I in thee that they also may be one in vs. Iohn 11. For this cause was his suffering as Saint Iohn professeth saying That the Sonne of God was not to die for the nation of the Iewes onely but to gather together in one the children of God that were scattered This was the legacie that our deere Sauiour be queathed at his death to vs Iohn 14. My peace doe I giue you my peace doe I leaue you If a Prince being to take a farre iourney shall leaue a jewell to his wife at the time of his departure as a signe of his loue towards her and shee should despise it when he is gone were she not to be charged with huge ingratitude But such is our vile nature towards our deerest Bridegroome Christ Iesus when wee so basely esteeme of his gift that he left with his wife the Church when he tooke his leaue of her Euery Armie