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A47813 The casuist uncas'd, in a dialogue betwixt Richard and Baxter, with a moderator between them, for quietnesse sake by Roger L'Estrange. L'Estrange, Roger, Sir, 1616-1704. 1680 (1680) Wing L1209; ESTC R233643 73,385 86

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had wrought his Majestiss Restauration But I find up●● Perusall of it ●hat you are just as kind to the Church in this Piece of 1660. as you were a litle before to his Majesty in your Holy Common Wealth of 1659. That is to say you are begging arguing and Casing of it all that is in you to keep them both out and truly This Particular piece of yours makes almost as bold with the King himself as with the Episcopal Clergy as you shall hear by and by Was it not enough for you to Adjure the Commons into an Opposition o● That Order in the Church which as he t●lls you is as Antient as the Monarchy of This Island An Order that you and your Confederates most Undu●ifully destroy'd But could you now have the Confidence to demand the spoyls again which you first ravish'd from the Church and the Independents afterward took from you as the Reward of your Sedition and Schism And could you yet have the greater Confidence in case of a Disappointment to break out into this most Unchristian Excl●mation on the behalf of the People Oh What happy times did we on●● see That is to say when the Kingdome was Laid in Bl●od and Ashes all that was Sacred trampled under Foot And all this Confusion only to heave the Presbyter into the Saddle Ri. I have described the Iudgment of such Non-conformists 〈◊〉 I have Conversed with not undertaking for every odd person wh●● I know not I do desire those that seek our Bloud and Ruine by the false Accusation of Rebellious Principles to tell me if they can wh●t Bodies or Party of men on Earth have more sound and Loya●● Principles of Government and Obedience 2d Part. Non-Co● Plea Pref. Our Accusations are 1. That we are Presbyteria●s and Phanatiques 2. That we began the War in 1641. and 16●● 3. That we destroy'd the King 4. That our Principles are Disl●●al 5. That we are Plo●ting a Rebellion Ibid. But what is a Pr●●byterian Mo. A Presbyterian is a Member of a State Faction under a Religious denomination For by that 〈◊〉 we do not understand such as are really of That Cl●ss●cal and Whymsical Profession but a sort of People tha● drive on a Political design under the Colour of an Ecclesiastical Scruple of perswasion And in as extensive a Latitude do you take the Word your selves For all the Sects are Presbyterians or Dissenting Protestants as you call them when you have need of them in Con●●ederacy against the Government though the Presby●terians spews all the rest up again as they did in 1647. when they had done th●ir work But pray what say ye to the B●ginning o● the War Ri. In 1642. the Lamentable Civil War ●●ok● out At which time as far as ●ver we could l●arn by A●qu●intance with s●m● of them and Report of others excepting an In●onsid●rable number the Houses of Lords and Commons consisted of Those that had still lived in Con●ormity to the Church of England and the Episcopa●l Government c. 1 Part. Non-Conform Plea p. 126. The Lord Li●utenants whom the Parliament chos● were almost all Epis●opal Conformists Ibid. The ●ar Greater Part of the Gene●all Officers Colonells Li●utenant-Colonells and Majors of the Earl o● Essex his Army And of the Sea-Cap●ai●s and of the M●jor-G●nerals of Brigades and Counties about the Land bid The Assembly of Divines at Westminster also were m●n that had liv●● in Conformity except about 8. or 9. and the Scots p. 12● Mo. You do well Richard to say that ●hey HAD Lived in Conformity for the Complying humour was now going off apace Insomuch that a profe●t opposition to the Orders of the Church became q●●ckly a distinguishing mark of the disloyal Party And all those Parliament men O●●icers and Assembly-Div●nes Contributed Unanimously in their several S●at●●n● toward the Common Ruine On Fryd●y D●c 1● 1640. A Petition was brought into the 〈…〉 All●derman Pennington from the Citizens of Lon●●n in 〈◊〉 name of 15000. Complaining of the Church 〈◊〉 in having Arch-Bishops B●shops c. Usin● the Cr●sse in Baptisme Kneeling at the Communion-Table 〈◊〉 unlawfull in the Protestant Church Diurnal Occurrences Pa. 12. Ian 13. Petition against the Government of Bishops from Several Counties P. 16. Ian. 13. The Remonstrance with 700. hands against the Bishops and their Prelacy was read P. 33. March 7. A Bill against Episcopacy read in the House of Commons c. Pa. 47. Mar. 10. 1640. Bishops Votes in Parliament taken away Pa. 49. in Novem. 1641. several Tumults against Bishops and Dec. 11 12. Bishops accused of High-Treason The Bishops in the mean time Petitioning his Majesty and entring a Protest of their Priviledges and against Tumults Apr. 2. 1642. A due and necessary Reformation of the Government and Liturgy of the Church pretended Ex. Col. P. 135. It is to be hoped that all These violences upon the Ecclesiastical State and the Persons of the Bishops were not acted by Conformists And it will not be deny'd I suppose that after the Posting and Proscribing of the Greater part of the Clergi●s Friends as well as the Kings The Schismatical Int●rest was carry'd on by the Major vote of the Rem●ining Fragment and all This was before the Eruption of the War the Earl of Essex not receiving his Commission till Iuly 12. 1642. Unless you 'le say that Epis●opal men themselves were for the Extirpation o● Bishops Ri. When the Parliaments Armys were worsted and weakned by the King and they found thems●lves in dang●r of being Ov●rcome th●y intreat●d help from the ●cots 't is true who taking advantage of thei● streights brought in the Covenant as the Condition of their help Non-Conf 1 part p. 27. And ●or the Assembly 1 I think I have not read of m●ny Assemblies o● Worthier men since the Apostles days Answ. to Dr. Stillingfle●t p 84. The Covenant ●●d Vow was taken by the Parliament and by their Garisons ●nd Soldiers that would voluntarily take it as a Test whom they mig●● Trust Non-Conf Plea p. 128. The Assembly never endeavoured to turn the Independents out of the Parish-Churches and Benefices nor to Silence them forbidding them Publick Preaching as you do us c. Answ. to Dr. Stillingf p. 14. They Imposed no Liturgy no one Ceremony no Practice on them contrary to their Conscience p. 85. The Presbytery being only a Tolerated or Intended thing without any Imposition that ●ver we knew of Mo. It is very well known what pains your Celebrated Assembly took to make the City bleed for That Scottish expidition and we have the Guild hall Harangues on That Occasion still upon Record But I shall rather mind you of some Proceedings which you would be thought to have forgotten to the Immortal Honour of your Confederates Only half a dozen Words in the way to it It is no wonder for men that have so low an Esteem for Generall Counsells as both You Sir and Mr.
Folly by Following Accide●ts that were then unknown for me to Judge of the Former Cause That which Is Calamitous in the Event is not allways sinfull in the Enterprize Should the Change of Times make me forget the State that we were formerly in and Change my Judgment by losing the sense of what then conduced to it's Enformation This Folly and forgetfullnesse would be the way to a sinfull and not an Obedient Repentance Nor can I be so Unthankful as to say for all the sins and Miscarriages of Men since that we have not received much mercy from the Lord Holy Common-wealth Pa. 487. When Godlynesse was the Common Scorn the Prejudice and shame most lamen●ably prevail'd to k●ep men from it and so encouraged them in Wickednesse But through the great mercy of God many Thousands have been converted to a Holy upright Life proportionably more then were before since the Reproach did cease and the Prejudice was removed and Faithfull Preachers took the Place of Scandalous ones or Ignorant Readers When I look upon the Place where I live and see that the Families of the Ungodly are here one and there one in a street as the Families of the Godly were heretofore though my own Endeavours have been too weak and cold it ●orceth me to set up the stone of Remembrance and to say HITHERTO HATH THE LORD HELPED US Ibid. Oh the sad and Heart-piercing Spectacles that mine Eyes have seen in four years space This was Jan. 15. 1649. In this Fight a dear Friend falls down by me From another a Pretious Christian b●ought home wounded or dead Scarce a month scarce a week without the sight or Noise of Bloud Saints Rest P. 139. Mo. Here 's first a most Evangelicall accompt of the blessed Effects of a Civill War The Propagation of Holynesse And Then a most Remarkable Calculation of the date of your Calamities which commences precisely from the Armies getting the Ascendent of the Two Houses without any respect to the Outrages both upon the Church and State while the Presbyterians Govern'd Ri. Pray'e will ye patiently read over the Representation ●r Letter of the London Ministers to the Lord Generall Jan. 18. 1648. Mo. Very well and since you are pleas'd to cast the Cause and the Integrity of your Party upon That Issue wee 'l see what they say It is allready sufficiently known besides all former Miscarriages what Attempts of late have been put in Practice against Lawfull Authority Letter P. 3. This Lawfull Authority was a Faction of the Two Houses Especially by the Late Remonstrance and Declaration published in Opposition to the Proceedings in Parliament H●re's the Crimen lesae Majestatis As also by seizing and Imprisoning the Kings Person without the Knowledge and Consent of Parliament Ibid. Here 's only a plain Seizure of the Kings Person without the Parliaments Privity or Leave No Cond●mnation of the Thing it self furth●r then as it was done without his Masters Consent Nor was the King more a Prisoner in the hands of the Army then he had been at Newcastle in the hands of the Presbyterians But now they come to That late Vnparall'd violence offer'd to the Members of it forcibly hind●ing above one hundred of them if we mistake not the Number from sitting in Parliament Imprisoning many of their Persons though many of them are known to us to be men of Eminent worth and Integrity and who have given most Ample Testimony of their Real Affection to the good of the Kingdome Ibid. Pray'e take notice that it was upon the Members an Unparallel'd violence upon the King no more then a Simple Seizure and methinks they might have bestowed some kind Epithete upon his Majesty as well as upon the Eminent and Worthy Members But 't is only the bare King and That 's All. And besides All This There is an Intent of Framing and contriving a New Model as well of the Laws and Government of the Kingdom as of the Constitution of a new kind of Representative All which Practices we cannot but Judge to be manifestly opposite to the Lawfull Authority of those Majestrates which God hath set over us and to the Duty and Obedience which by the Laws of God and man and by our manifold Oaths and Covenants we stand obliged to render to them Ibid. You are not aware Mr. Richard that to Justify the Doctrine of these Letters falls very little short of Justifying downright Treason unlesse you can shew a Law that places the Supreme Power in the Two Houses The Fear of God therefore whose Ordinance is violated when Magistracy is opposed makes us affraid of medling with Those who without any Colour of Legal Authority meerly upon the Presumption of strength shall attempt such Changes as these are And we ●annot but be deeply Affected with Grief and Astonishment to see that an Army raised by Authority of Parliament for the Preservation of the Priviledges thereof and of our Religion Laws and Liberties should contrary to their Trust and many engagements do That which tends to the Manifest subversion of them All. P. 4. Pray'e where was the Fear of Cod when the King was opposed what Legal Authority had the Two Houses over his Majesty more th●n the Army had over the Two Houses Or by what Law did That Parliament raise That Army We have not forgotten those Declared Grounds and Principles upon which the Parliament first took up Arms and upon which we were induced to joyn with them from which we have not hitherto declared and we trust through Gods Grace we NEVER SHALL Pa. 5. We have here in few words the Judgment and the Resolution of the Presbyterian Divines and the standard of their Loyalty from the Lips of the very Oracle of the Party I would fain know now which wa● the fouler breach of Trust That of the Two Houses toward his Majesty to whom both by Law and Conscience they were obliged besides so many Gratious Concessio●s or that of the Army to the Two Houses The one being like the Robbing of an Honest man and the other the Pillaging of That Thief Over and above that the Army was Trayn'd up in the Trade of turning out their Masters And moreover although the PARLIAMENT thus too● up Arms for the defence of their Persons Priviledges and the Preservation of Religion Laws and Liberties yet was it not their Intention thereby to do violence to the Person of the King or divest him of ●is Regal Authority and what of Right belongeth to him Pa. 7. Do but shew me now any one Essential of Sovereignty which those people left hi● if they could take it away and I will be answerable to forfei● my head for 't But still it is but what of Righ● b●longeth to him and That 's a Salvo for all the Violences Imaginable We disclam detest and abhor the Wicked and bloudy Te●ents and Practices of Iesuits the whrst of Papists
by wicked Counsells intends to make War against the Parliament c. 2. That whensoever the King maketh War upon the Parliament it is a Breach of the Trust reposed in him by his People Contrary to his Oath and tending to the Dissolution of This Government 3. That whosoever shall serve or Assist him in such Wars are Traytors by the Fundamental Laws of this Kingdome and have been so Adjudg'd by Two Acts of Parliaments and ought to suffer as Traytors c. Ri. Your Majesties most humble and Faithful Subjects the Lords and Commons in Parliament c. Ib. Jun. 2. 1642. Pa. 307. Mo. This was the Petition that Accompanied the Nineteen Propositions demanding from the King the discharge of all his Ministers and Embassadors and none to be taken into their Places but what the Parliament shall approve That all matters of State may be transacted only in Parliament the Privy Counsell to be by Them approved from time to time and supply'd All Great Officers to b● Chosen by their Approbation They to have the Education of the Kings Children and the Choyce of their Servants No Ma●ch to be treated of without them A Reformation of Church-Government and Liturgy to be contrived by their Advice The Militia to be settled in them till settled by a Bill and all Proclamations against it to be recalled New Oaths for Privy Councellors and Iudges All Iudges and Officers to hold their Places Quamdi● se bene Gesserint Parliament-Iustice upon all Delinquents An Amnestry with such exceptions as the Parliament shall advise All Forts and Castles under Gouernours approved by Parliament All Forces to be Disbanded and a Prohibition of any Peers hereaft●● to be made from Sitting or Voting in Parliament without the Consent of Both Houses Are not these the Propositions think ye of Most Humble and Faithful Subjects Ri. Yo ur Majesties Loyal Subjects the Lords and Commons in Parliament Ibid. Sept. 24. 1642. Pa. 617. Mo. His Majesties Loyal Subjects had now sent the Earl of Essex to fall upon the Kings Army and desired his Majesty to leave them and come to his Parliament And they Petition'd his Majesty to the same Purpose again Pa. 630. And so as the Humour took them to the very Treaty at the Isle of Wight But whether These were the Actions of Rebells or Loyall Subjects be you your self the Judge Ri. Well But what say ye to the Stile of We your Humble and Loyal Subjects of both Kingdomes Appendix to Husbands Ex. Coll. 2 d. Part. Fol. 22. Jan. 13. 1645. Mo. These were the Humble and Loyal Subjects that in the same Paper Refused his Majestys Proffer of a Personal Trea●● with Them at Westminster Your Majesty say they desires 〈◊〉 Engagement not only of the Parliament but of the Lord Mayor Alderm●n Common-Councill and Militia of the City of London 〈◊〉 Chief Commanders of Sir Tho. Fairfaxes Army and Those of the Scots Army which is against the Privileges and Honour of the P●●liamen● those being Ioyn'd with them who are Subject and Subordinate to their Authority At the same rate they Proceeded in Their Professions They desire only to Lay a Foundation of Honour Safety and Happiness to the Kings Person and Throne Ex. Coll. dec 14. 1641. The Greatnesse and Prosperity of his Majesty and his Royal Posterity Ib. Dec. 15. Pa. 2. His Majestys greatnesse and Honour ●b Mar. 1.41 Pa. 94. Honour and greatn●sse Mar. 2. P. 102. Honour Safety and Prosperity of your Majesty Mar. 16. P. 118. We seek nothing but your Majesties Honour Mar. 15. P. 123. The Safety of his Majesties Person and his Royal Posterity May 5. 42. Pa. 173. Our most Dutyfull care for the Safety of your Royal Person May 9. P. 180. For the Preserving and Mayntaining the Royal Honour Greatness and Safety of your Majesty and Posterity Jan. 2. 42. P. 310. And then see their Remarkable Protestation of Octob. 22. 1642. We the Lords and Commons in this present Parliament Assembled do in the Presence of Almighty God for the Satisfaction of our Cons●i●nces and the Discharge of That Great Trust which lyes upon us make this Protestation and Declaration to The Kingdome and Nation and to the whole World That no Private Passion or Respect no Evill Intention to his Majestys Person no design to the Prejudice of his Iust Honour and Authority Engaged us to rayse Forces and take up Arms against the Authours of This War wherewith the Kingdome is now Enflamed Ibid. Pa. 663. Without any Intention or desire as we do here professe before the Ever-living God to hurt or Injure his Majesty Either in his Person or Iust Power b. P. 666. I could give you Instances of this kind without End and as many of the gross and Unquestionable violations of These Professions For every Order they past and every ●istol that they Fired was a poynt-blank Contradiction to their Pretensions Beside that in the same Breath they Usurped all the Regalities of the Crown and yet Wrote Themselves His Majesties most Obedient SUBJECTS So that This Stile of Loyalty was at the same time a Blind to the Well-meaning Multitude and a Note of Confederacy among Themselves a Loyal Subject according to the Covenant Importing in plain Terms a Traytor in the eye of the Law And yet the Cause and the Obligation of this Covenant and the Proceedings upon it are openly Asserted at This very day Ba. Yes yes There 's The Counterminer the Popish Dialogue and many others that continue lowdly to Accuse us and make men believe that we are Plotting a new War and that our Principles are Rebellious c. Non Conf. Plea 2d Part. Pref. Mo. What do ye think of maintaining that Whatsoever the Tw● Houses declare for Law must pass for Law without Controul both upon King and People Ex. Coll. 297. That they may do whatever they please Ibid. That the Major Part of Both Houses are the absolute Masters of the Lives and Liberties of the Subject Ibid. That no member of the House of Comm●ns be medled with for Treason Felony c. Without Leave of the House Ibid. That th● S●v●reignty resides in the two Houses and that the King has no Neg●tiv● Voice Ibid. That there lyes no Treason against the Person of the King Ibid. That the Two Houses may Depose the King and not be blame● for so doing Ibid. Now in calling Those people that did all This The Bell Governors in the World as in the Preface to your Holy Common-Wealth And in Vindicating That Book from any Principles of Disloyalty toward the Person of the King as you do toward the close of your Preface as to the 2 d. Part of the Non-conformists Ple● Apri 16. 1680. What is This but the Asserting of Rebellio●● Principles And the Preaching of the old Doctrine to the people over again What Is it but the Preface to another War Ba. What have we done