there is an Accompt made up under his own hand of almost Two or Three hundred Pounds which sum I cannot say but one of them I am certain of which he hath denyed several times that he had it but I can prove that he hath it if he will be pleased to produce that Book we need not be a quarter of an hour in making up the Accompt He did speak of some other sums he had to place to Accompt too but so much was made up already But Captain Hawley saying he would not speak with him nor any of us from him I did take the liberty to say to Captain Hawley That it was hard his Lordship and his party should abuse Mr. Dugdale at that rate to make him his Debtor for now I understood by what Mr. Dugdale said my Lord was his Debtor And said I if I can perswade Mr. Dugdale he shall publish his Case for the Protestant Interest suffered by it That he should be made a Debtor to my Lord when he was not so And I believe Capt. Hawley told my Lord Aston what I did say for when he came back again from my Lord Aston he said my Lord did acknowledge he had that Book and it was ready to be produced but he would stay till a Councellor of his came out of the Country and till he had spoke with the Lieutenant for he would not speak with Mr. Dugdale unless the Lieutenant were by and in three or four days time he would send for him but I never heard that he sent for him ever since If it please your Lordships I have one thing more that I remember There was a young man that belonged to my Lord Aston's Family that heard Mr. Dugdale was at Captain Hawley's Chamber and came to see him and paid a very great respect to him and would stand bare to him though Mr. Dugdale desired him to put on his Hat several times Some of us asked him whether Mr. Dugdale was thought to be such a Knave when he lived with his Lord as they would have made him since No said he Mr. Dugdale was as honest a Gentleman as ever lived in our Family I remember my Lord Aston's man said this to us then L. Stafford My Lords Will you be pleased to give me leave if I speak impertinently I am under your correction I conceive I shall have something to answer this but I would first know whether I may desire of your Lordships that I may have my Lord Aston here to give an account of this matter Sir Will. Jones If he were here he could not be heard being a person accused for the same offence L. H. Stew. My Lord he stands Indicted for the same Treason and cannot be a Witness L. Stafford I beg your pardon my Lord. Nicholas Boson was sworn L. H. Stew. What is your Name Witness Nicholas Boson Sir VV. Jones Declare to my Lords what you know concerning Mr. Dugdale's pressing my Lord Aston to come to an accompt Mr. Boson In January last I met with Mr. Dugdale and one Mr. Noble and one Mr. Colledge And Mr. Dugdale desired us to go down with him to the Tower He said he had an Order of the Council to pass his Accompts with my Lord Aston and when we came there we enquired for Captain Hawley and desired him that he would acquaint my Lord Aston that he was there to accompt with him Captain Hawley went up to my Lord Aston and brought word back again my Lord was not at leisure or would not speak with him or to that effect whereupon Mr. Dugdale said it was very hard that he should be aspersed to owe my Lord Mony and he would not come to accompt with him For my Lord Aston had a Book or Books in his custody which he would stand by and they would determine the business between them that my Lord Aston was almost Two hundred pounds in his debt And pray says he Captain Hawley do me the favour to go to my Lord Aston again and desire him that he will be pleased to produce that Book or Books If I owe my Lord any money I am ready to pay him and if he owe me any I hope his Lordship will do the like by me as I am sure he does Two hundred Pounds Captain Hawley went away and brought this Answer That his Lordship would send for him in some short time assoon as a Coâ—nellor did come out of the Country whom he had entrusted with his Books and that was one Birch as near as I remember Sir Will. Jones We have done with this Witness And because we desire to conclude as to Mr. Dugdale we shall call some persons of Quality as to his Reputation my Lord having gone about to make him a man of no Reputation Mr. Boson I can speak too about the Boy that came in Sir VV. Jones There is no need of that now we shall trouble you no further Sir Your Lordships will be pleased to observe That Mr. Philips the Minister that was one of my Lord Stafford's Witnesses did say Mr. Dugdale was a man of whome many spoke well and some indifferently and perhaps that is the case of most good men for scarce any are so good that all speak well of them but that many should speak well and some indifferently of him may be the lot of a very good man We shall call some Witnesses and begin with Mr. VVhitby a Justice of the Peace that will tell you he hath known Mr. Dugdale long and what Reputation he is of Thomas Whitby Esq sworn Sir John Trevor My Lords We desire your Lordships would be pleased to ask him what Reputation and credit Mr. Dugdale was in in my Lord Aston's Service Mr. VVhitby My Lords I have known Mr. Dugdale to be a Servant to my Lord Aston this nine or ten years he was Steward to him and there was no other person between my Lord and him he received my Lords Rents and Debts for him exchanged his Lands for him in forty places I exchanged some Land with my Lord my self and he was the man that did it He was very hard for my Lords advantage and did what he could for my Lords profit Sir John Trevor What do you know more as to his dealing Mr. VVhitby He was a person that was next to my Lord and did rule and govern the rest of the Family All the Servants were under him Sir John Trevor Was he looked upon to be an honest man in his dealings Mr. VVhitby As to what I had to deal with him he was an honest man I never heard the contrary I have heard some Tradesmen complain that he hath put them off without Money would not pay them what my Lord owed them L. Stafford I desire that Mr. VVhitby may be here when I shall have occasion to say something to him Sir VV. Jones That will be I hope by and by for we have almost done Call Mr. VVilliam Southall VVho was sworn L.
of the Tower of London bring forth thy Prisoner William Viscount Stafford upon pain and peril shall fall thereon God save the King Whereupon the Lieutenant of the Tower brought the Prisoner to the Bar. Usher of the Black Rod. My Lord Stafford must kneel which he did Lord high Steward Rise my Lord. Then he Arose and stood at the Bar and the Lord High Steward spake to him as followeth My Lord Viscount Stafford THE Commons of England Assembled in Parliament have Impeach'd your Lordship of High Treason and you are brought this Day to the Bar to be Tryed upon that Impeachment You are not Try'd upon the Indictment of Treason found by the Grand Jury tho there be that too in the Case But you are Prosecuted and Pursued by the Loud and Dreadsul Complaints of the Commons and are to be Try'd upon the Presentment which hath been made by the Grand Inquest of the whole Nation In this so Great and Weighty Cause you are to be Judg'd by the whole Body of the House of Peers The Highest and the Noblest Court in This or perhaps in any other part of the Christian World Here you may be sure no False Weights or Measures ever will or can be found Here the Ballance will be exactly kept and all the Grains of Allowance which your Case will bear will certainly be put into the Scales But as it is impossible for my Lords to Condemn the Innocent so 't is equally Impossible that They should clear the Guilty If therefore you have been Agitated by a Restless Zeal to Promote that which you call the Catholick Cause If this Zeal have Engaged you in such Deep and Black Designs as you are Charged with and this Charge shall be fully Prov'd Then you must Expect to Reap what you have Sown for every Work must and ought to Receive the Wages that are due to it Hear therefore with Patience what shall be said against you for you shall have full Time and Scope to Answer it Aud when you come to make your Defence you shall have a very fair and equal Hearing In the mean time the best Entrance upon this Service will be to begin with Reading of the Charge Lord High Steward My Lord if your Lordship find your self infirm and unable to stand your Lordship may have a Chair to ease your self whilst the Charge is Reading and a Chair was brought accordingly and his Lordship sate thereon Clerk of the Parliament Read the Charge Articles of Impeachment of High Treason and other high Crimes and Offences against William Earl of Powis William Viscount Stafford and Henry Lord Arundel of Wardour William Lord Petre and John Lord Bellasis now Prisoners in the Tower of London 1. THat for many years now last past there hath been contrived and carried on by Papists a Trayterous and execrable Conspiracy and Plot within this Kingdom of England and other places to Alter Change and Subvert the Ancient Government and Laws of this Kingdom and Nation and to Suppress the True Religion therein Established and to Extirpate and Destroy the Professors thereof which said Plot and Conspiracy was contrived and carried on in divers Places and by several ways and means and by a great number of Persons of several Qualities and Degrees who Acted therein and intended thereby to Execute and Accomplish the aforesaid Wicked and Traiterous Designs and Purposes That the said William Earl of Powis William Viscount Stafford Henry Lord Arundel of Wardour William Lord Petre and John Lord Bellasis together with Philip Howard commonly called Cardinal of Norfolk Thomas White alias Whitebread commonly called Provincial of the Jesuits in England Richard Strange lately called Provincial of the Jesuits in England Vincent commonly called Provincial of the Dominicans in England James Corker commonly called President of the Benedictines Sir John Warner alias Clare Baronet William Harcourt John Kenis Nicholas Blundel Poole Edward Mico Thomas Bedingfield alias Benefield Basil Langworth Charles Peters Richard Peters John Conyers Sir George Wakeman Thomas Fenwick Dominick Kelly Fitzgerald Evers Sir Thomas Preston William Lovel Jesuits Lord Baltamore John Carrel John Townely Richard Langhorn William Fogarty Thomas Penny Matthew Medbourn Edward Coleman William Ireland John Grove Thomas Pickering John Smith and divers other Jesuits Priests Fryers and other Persons as false Traytors to his Majesty and this Kingdom within the time aforesaid have Traiterously Consulted Contrived and Acted to and for the accomplishing of the said wicked pernitious and Traiterous Designs and for that end did most wickedly and Traiterously agree Conspire and resolve to Imprison Depose and Murder his Sacred Majesty and to deprive him of his Royal State Crown and Dignity and by malicious and advised speaking writing and otherwise declared such their Purposes and Intentions And also to subject this Kingdom and Nation to the Pope and to his Tyrannical Government And to seize and share amongst themselves the Estates and Inheritances of his Majesties Protestant Subjects And to Erect and Restore Abbeys Monasteries and other Convents and Societies which have been long since by the Laws of this Kingdom suppressed for their Superstition and Idolatry and to deliver up and restore to them the Lands and Possessions now vested in his Majesty and his Subjects by the Laws and Statutes of this Realm And also to Found and Erect new Monasteries and Convents and to remove and deprive all Protestant Bishops and other Ecclesiastical persons from their Offices Benefices and Preferments And by this means to destroy his Majesties Person extirpate the Protestant Religion overthrow the Rights Liberties and Properties of all his Majesties good Subjects Subvert the lawful Government of this Kingdom and subject the same to the Tyranny of the See of Rome 3. That the said Conspirators and their Complices and Confederates Traiterously had and held several Meetings Assemblies and Consultations wherein it was Contrived and Designed among them what means should be used and what Persons and Instruments should be Employed to Murder his Majesty And did then and there resolve to effect it by Poisoning Shooting Stabbing or some such like ways and means and offered Rewards and Promises of advantage to several persons to execute the same and hired and imployed several wicked persons to go to Windsor and other places where his Majesty did reside to murder and destroy his Majesty which said persons or some of them accepted such Rewards and undertook the perpetrating thereof and did actually go to the said Places for that end and purpose 4. That the said Conspirators the better to compass their Trayterous Designs have Consulted to Raise and have procured and raised Men Money Horses Arms and Ammunition and also have made Application to and Treated and Corresponded with the Pope his Cardinals Nuncioes and Agents and with other Forreign Ministers and Persons to raise and obtain Supplies of Men Money Arms and Ammunition therewith to make levy and raise War Rebellion and Tumults within this Kingdom and to Invade the same with
whether I should be sworn or no for your Lordship shall not make me be sworn unless my Lords say I should L. H. Stew. I would not offer it if there were any colour of doubt in it Then my Lord was sworn E. of Maclesfeld My Lords I have nothing to say against this man but what he said to me and before a Justice of Peace too for I did take this man when he had run away from my Lord Gerard. He had cheated many of his Servants I catched him on the way running to play his tricks somewhere else and I intercepted him but though I was a Justice of Peace there yet because it was in a manner my own case I would not commit him till I had carried him before another Justice of Peace So the man comes up to me says he My Lord have you a mind to have your Son-in-law bubbled I have been only teaching him how to avoid being cheated I acknowledge my self to be a Cheat and I would teach him to avoid them I am going now into Staffordshire and that was all I intended to his Lordship I am a Rogue I confess it And upon this a Justice of Peace comes in and while they were examining of him we bid some that were by to search him and they found in his pocket false Dice and truly the Justice nor I did not know whether they were true or false Says he You don't know what to do with these but I do This is all I can say but in all the three Counties of Staffordshire Cheshire and Lancashire there are several men that I see here that know his Life better than I do for 't is his common practice and I believe my Lords the Judges must know him for it was his common practice at all Assizes and great Meetings to play these pranks Sir Will. Jones My Lords we will not trouble your Lordships any further as to Robinson if he were here perhaps my Lady would know him but having two such Witnesses I think we need not trouble our selves nor you any more about him L. H. Stew. Have you done with my Lady Gerard Sir Will. Jones Yes and we beg her pardon for this trouble My Lords your Lordships will be pleased to remember there was one Holt was produced as a Witness by my Lord Stafford and your Lordships when you look on your Notes will remember he testified to this purpose That Dugdale sent an Horse for him to Stafford-Town which Horse brought him to the Star-Inne and there Dugdale did offer him Forty pounds to swear That one Mr. Moor carried away Evers the Jesuit My Lords we will call some Witnesses to this Mr. Holt you will find him to be something akin to Mr. Robinson and as we suppose of nothing a better Reputation than he The Witnesses will give you an account of his pranks Call Sampson Rawlins and Lander Rawlins stood up and was sworn L. H. Stew. What is your Name VVitness Sampson Rawlins L. H. Stew. What do you ask him Sir William Jones We desire to ask him if he knows Samuel Holt the Black-smith L. H. Stew. Do you know Holt Rawlins Yes Sir Fr. Winn. Acquaint my Lords what Reputation he is of where he lives and what he is Rawlins He is counted to be a very lewd loose fellow L. H. Stew. Why so Sir Will. Jones What hath he done Rawlins He is counted a drunken lewd fellow Sir Will. Jones Is he of an ill Reputation in the Countrey where he lives Rawlins Yes he is so L. H. Stew. For what Rawlins 'T is said in the Town he keeps another mans wife Sir Will. Jones Is there any other fault he hath Rawlins He said there were none but Rogues would take Mr. Dugdale's part whereas I never knew any harm by Mr. Dugdale and I have known him this fourteen or fifteen years I dealt with him I was Taylor to the Family and he ever paid me very honestly and well Sir VV. Jones Have you heard of Mr. Holt any other ill thing besides what you speak of Rawlins He broke open my Lord Aston's Wine-celler and stole several bottles of Wine wherefore my Lord Aston bid Mr. Dugdale send him to the Goal but he curryed favour with Mr. Dugdale and so kept in with him that he afterwards begged for him of my Lord to forgive him And now he comes to Evidence against Mr. Dugdale that was his sure stedfast friend and saved him from the Goal L. Stafford I would ask this Witness a Question Rawlins And because I took Mr. Dugdale's part saying he was an honest man and he was so to me and all others as far as ever I heard he met me and would have murdered me L. H. Steward When was this Rawlins Since last Term when I was up here And likewise Sawyer took a pot and would have dong'd my brains out Sir Fr. Winn. My Lords I think this man was summoned as a Witness to attend at my Lord Aston's Tryal What occasion brought you to London at that time Rawlins I was subpoena'd up And when I came home to my Wife and Children they grosly abused me and said I was a Rogue because I came up upon His Majesties Service L. Stafford Pray my Lords ask him whether Holt was my Lord Aston's Servant or no. L. H. Stew. Was Holt a Servant to my Lord Aston Rawlins He was a Smith hard by his Gate and he worked to the Family L. H. Stew. Were you subpoena'd up to the Tryal of my Lord Aston Rawlins Yes L. H. Steward And it was for coming to that Tryal he offered to murder you Rawlins Yes I have several Witnesses of it And by the blow that Thomas Sawyer gave me for a good while I could not lay my head on the Pillow Sir Will. Jones Call Thomas Launder but he did not appear being gone away sick Sir Will. Jones Because we would not lose your Lordships time seeing the man we call for is gone away sick we will call a Witness as to another of my Lords Witnesses John Morral Call Thomas Thorne Who was sworn Sir Fran. Winn. My Lords if that other man come by and by we hope your Lordships will give us leave to ask him a Question to the point which we are now gone over But my Lord Stafford did produce one John Morral a Barber that lived at Ridgley who said that money was offered him to swear against Sir James Symons and Mr. Howard and others We call this Witness to give your Lordships an account what this Morral is and how he hath behaved himself in this business Sir W. Jones What do you say about John Morral Do you know him Thorne Yes L. H. Stew. What do you know of him Thorne I know he is a man that use to come often to my Lord Aston's to Tixal to trim him he is a poor fellow that walks up and down the Country and hath little or nothing to live on L. H. Stew. Is he poor and needy
gave us intelligence of several passages that happened in Court how the Duke and the Queen and the chief of the Nobility were of their side how they carried matters several times the ways my Lord Clifford did use and Sir William Godolphin to effect the work and that they did not question but they should get my Lord Treasurer Danby on their side too This was in Coleman's Letters and he had so much allowance for his Intelligence These Letters of his I read several times in the Colledge My Lords afterwards when I came from Rome I saw Abbot Montague again and he said he was very glad to see me and that I was a Priest well but said I what am I the better where is the Employment you promised me when I should come into England He told me I should have it very soon and he was very glad that I had not made my self a Jesuit and he recommended me to Dr. Goffe Confessor to the Queen Mother who said he would do any thing in the world for me and he did not doubt but he should get a preferment for me which Dr. Goffe is now living Truly when I came into England I found all the Popish Clergy of England that I discoursed with of the same opinion that they did not doubt but the Romish Religion would soon come in And besides in the North there was gathering of Money in which I was ordered to be one of the chief men but I was against it I told them I would do nothing in it I thought it was illegal to send any Money beyond Sea they told me it was charity only to repair the College at Doway I told them it was strange that there should be so much Money raised only to repair one College which would serve three or four Colleges and I perswaded Mr. Jenison and all other persons I had to do with not to meddle with it As to this raising of the Money I conceive it may be inferr'd it was for some other private business and I believe was for the carrying on the design As for the Gentleman at the Bar my Lord Stafford I know nothing of my own particular knowledge but only this Therewas one Thomas Smith Sir Edward Smith's Brother that lived at a place not far off the place where I lived who was one that contributed in paying the Money that was then Collecting he was the man that writ a Letter up to my Lord Stafford to complain of two or three Justices of the Peace that were active against Popery upon which there was one that was turned out that I think is now of the Honourable House of Commons Mr. Treby Name him Mr. Smith Sir Henry Calverley The other was not turned out So I asked Smith when I was lately in the Country about it for I heard a rumor that there was a Letter of this Mr. Smiths found in my Lord Staffords Chamber and I was told it by a Parliament Man one Collonel Tempest So said I to him now you will be concerned in the Plot. No said he I care not for that Letter it will signifie nothing for my Lord won't keep by him any thing of any moment I asked him what he knew about my Lord he told me he writ another Letter to my Lord to know whether he would make a conveyance of his Estate away and whether he apprehended they were in danger And he told me his Lordships answer was that several did so but he would not for he expected some sudden change or alteration I asked him what change or alteration he understood by it Sir said he what can be understood by it but an alteration of the Government and Religion I am sure said he my Lord is so wise a Man that he would not write so without some ground This is all I can say to the Gentleman at the Bar and this is true by the Oath I have taken Mr. Treby My Lords I did observe Mr. Smith in the beginning of his Testimony speaking of the Discourse he had at Rome said they told him there was one in the way I presume 't is not uneasy to conjecture who was that one Lord High Stew. It was surely the King Mr. Treby But we would rather have it explained by him himself Mr. Smith Father Anderton and Father Southwell did say that the King was a good man but he was not for their turn and he was the only man that stood in the way Mr. Treby Did they name the King Mr. Smith Yes it was the common Discourse all over the Country Mr. Treby My Lords I desire Mr. Smith in the next place may give an account of the methods they were to use to accomplish this design the firing of the City and the rest Mr. Smith As to the burning of London I heard nothing beyond Seas at all but this it was discoursed that the Papists did it and the like but they denied it and they said it came accidentally in a Bakers House but this I have often heard them say that it was no great matter if it had been all burnt Lord High Stew. Will you ask him any more Questions yet Mr. Treby No we have done with him Lord High Stew. Have you concluded your Evidence Sir Mr. Smith Yes Lord High Stew. My Lord Stafford will your Lordship ask him any Questions Lord Stafford I desire to know how long ago it was my Lord since he was made a Priest Sir Fran. Winn. My Lords with your Lordships leave no man is bound to answer a Question whereby he shall accuse himself therefore under favour the Question is somewhat harsh and we demand your Judgment in it Lord High Stew. What is the Question your Lordship would have asked him L. Stafford I will not ask it since 't is an offence but did not he say he said Mass pray how long ago was that Lord High Stew. I will ask him a Question Are not you a Protestant Mr. Smith Yes my Lord. Lord High Stew. How long have you been so Mr. Smith I have been a Protestant near upon two Years Lord High Stew. How long ago before were you perverted Mr. Smith Some six or seven Years Lord High Stew. That is nine Years That was I suppose about 71. Mr. Smith I was always bred a Protestant and was so abroad till I went towards Rome Lord High Stew. It is not criminal to have been a Priest if he have conformed L. Stafford I have no more to say to him Lord High Stew. Have you any more Questions to ask him L. Stafford No I never saw him before he may be as honest a Gentleman for ought I know as any one here Mr. Treby Then if your Lordship have no more Questions to ask him he may withdraw My Lords The next Witness we produce is to the general still and that is Mr. Stephen Dugdale Lord Stafford Is he only to speak to the general or to me Mr. Treby To the general we shall tell your Lordship
order to this Design Letters came also in June from St. Omers which gave them an account That Father Beddingfield had assured them of the Dukes willingness to comply with them for the advancement of the Catholick Religion My Lords after I had stay'd some time there and had passed through the Country for the business of the Society I found that in the Court of Spain some Ministers of that Court had been very ready to advance Money which Money was returned for England and that the Father Provincial of the Jesuits of Castile by his care and industry had advanced Ten Thousand Pound which was promised to be paid in June following within a Twelvemonth after My Lords in July I received Letters out of England wherein an account was given there to the Fathers in Spain That they were sending them a Mission of Twelve Students Four whereof were to go to Madrid and Eight to Validolid the Conductors of these Twelve Students were one Father Crosse that was his true Name and one Father Mumâ—ord whose true Name was Armstrong These Missioners arrived in December where they had a Sermon preached at their coming by this same Armstrong wherein the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy were declared to be Antichristian Heretical and Devillish in which the Kings Legitimacy was vilified and abused and that his Religion did intitle him to nothing but sudden death and destruction in that he appeared an enemy both to God and Man These were the Contents of that Sermon as near as I remember My Lords after the meeting with several Letters there in July August and September in the Kingdom of Spain it was ordered I should return for England and in the month of November I came for England at which time I had Letters from the Provincial of Castile called by the Name of Padre Hieronymo de Corduba who did in his Letter assure the Provincial in England and the Fathers here That the ten thousand Pound should be paid as I said hefore in June following When I came for England at London I was lodged at one Grigson's that lived in Drury-lane near the Sign of the Red-Lyon and there I lay till I went to St. Omers and by the Provincial and the Consultors of the Province I was ordered a maintenance and it was paid to this man for entertaining of me I went and brought these Letters to this Strange and there was Father Keins lying ill upon Strange's Bed and Keins was saying he was mighty sorry for honest William so they called the Russian that was to kill the King that he had missed in his Enterprize But my Lords this I think good to tell your Lordships they were not so zealous for the destruction of the King till the King had refused Coleman the dissolving of the long Parliament Then they were more intent upon it though they had several times attempted it ever since the Fire of London but when Coleman was refused the Dissolution of the Long Parliament then were they more zealous for the Destruction of the King but the Design for the introducing the Popish Religion they have been carrying on some years before the Fire by those instruments some of whom are yet alive My Lords I left England in November old stile and December new stile for when I came to St. Omers it was as near as I can remember the 9. or 10. of December according to the stile of the place I carryed with me a Packet of Letters from Strange the Provincial and other Fathers that were of the Consult for the Province of England to the Fathers at St. Omers wherein Strange did tell them that they had great hopes of their Design taking effect the next year but as yet it would not be effected he said therefore they at London thought it fit to suspend it till they saw what the Parliament would do And he did in the same Letter declare That the Parliament would be about a long Bill that had been brought into the Commons House some Sessions before but he did not Question but that the Catholick Party would evade that Bill And My Lords in that year some time after we had a Letter from our New Provincial whose true Name was Whitebread and his counterfeit Name White This Father writes to the Fathers at St. Omers and therein he does order one Conyers to preach upon St. Thomas of Canterburies Day and he did therein also tell them that he would be as zealous for the carrying on of the Design as his Predecessor had been and a Sermon was accordingly preached at the Sodality Church wherein after he had commended the Saint whose Day they celebrated for his great Vertues declaring how unworthily he was sacrificed he did inveigh against the Tyranny as he called it of temporal Princes and particularly of the King of England and when he came to speak of the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy he declared that he looked upon them as Antichristian and Devillish and that it was fit to destroy all such as would countenance them We have done with the year 77. and we come now to January 1678. Lord High Stew. You speak of one Keins who lying upon Stranges Bed said he was sorry honest Will had missed his Enterprize You have not explained who that honest Will was explain that Dr. Oats It was Grove Lord High Steward But about what did he say he was sorry for him Dr. Oats That he had missed his Design Mr. Foley What was that missing of his Design Dr. Oats That he had not killed the King My Lords in January 78. Lord High Steward You mean according to the Foreign stile Dr. Oats Yes according to the Foreign stile My Lords we received Letters out of Ireland and there my Lords we found by the Contents of those Letters that they were as busie in Ireland as we were in England We found there that the Talbots and other persons were very zealous in raising of Forces and were resolved to let in the French King provided that the Parliament should urge the King to break with France My Lords likewise in January as near as I can remember Morgan was sent into Ireland as a Visitor which is something a better place than a Provincial but only it is but temporary for the time he visits and he returns in February or March and gives an account how ready the Irish were to vindicate their freedom and their Religion from the oppression of the English as they called it My Lords in February some were employed to go into some parts of Germany to Liege and to some parts of Flanders to see how the affairs there stood and how their Correspondencies stood to see whether there was not an interruption in the Correspondencies My Lords upon their return they found that the Fathers at Ghent were inclined to take into this business the secular Clergy but the Fathers of St. Omers together with the Provincial did refuse the motion because the secular Clergy were more
when the Collectors came to the Convent of our Fryers in Sligoe all the Fryers gathered together into a room and these Collectors coming in did read their Commission given them from one James Taaffe as they said and I was there personally present though a Novice and upon reading their Commissions they said Forty Shillings was to be paid by the Prior and the Fryers of that Convent and the Provincial of the Order of the Dominicans questioned the Power of the said Reynolds and Berne and so did the Prior and I asked why the money was levyed they gave answer That that levy and several other levyes was to encourage the French King in whose Kingdom were several Bishops of Ireland Clergymen and others whose business it was to provoke the King to bring an Army to invade Ireland when ever time should serve Lord High Stew. Have you done with him now Mr. Treby Yes Lord High Stew. Will your Lordship ask him any Questions Lord Stafford My Question is only whether he profess himself of the Church of Rome or a Protestant Mr. Dennis I am a Roman Catholick still my Lord. L. High Steward Are you Mr. Dennis I am my Lords Lord Stafford Then I have no more to say Sir John Trevor Then we call Mr. Jenison Who was sworn Mr. Treby Mr. Jenison you have been among the Papists and you have had great confidence among them pray declare what you know of their Designs for the Destruction of the Protestant Religion or the means of doing it whether by the Murder of the King or what other means tell your whole knowledge Mr. Jenison My Lords In the beginning of the year 78. I have heard Mr. Ireland and Mr Thomas Jenison both Jesuits speak of a Design they had to gain a toleration of Conscience for their Party in England and the way then designed to get it was by procuring a great Sum of Money from their Party and by bribing the then Parliament I have heard them likewise discourse of securing the Duke of York's Succession and that they told me was to be done by procuring of Commissions to be granted to those of their Party to be ready to rise upon the Death of the King I likewise have heard them discourse of the necessity and usefulness to their Party of the Alteration of the Government established and that their Religion could never flourish till that was done and this Kingdom altered according to the French Model In the month of June 78 I was at Mr. Ireland's Chamber and there happening a discourse that the Roman Catholick Religion was like to come into England Mr. Ireland did then say there was but one that stood in the way and that it was an easie thing to Poyson the King and that Sir George Wakeman might easily and opportunely do it I asked Mr. Ireland whether Sir George Wakeman was the Kings Physician His answer was No but he was the Queens and so might have an opportunity to do it In the month of August the same year the day that I came from Windsor I went to Mr. Ireland's Chamber and I found he was newly come from Staffordshire and was drawing off his Boots on the frame of a Table he asked me whence I was come I told him from Windsor He inquired of me about the Diversions of the Court I told him I understood His Majesty did take delight in Hawking and Fishing but chiefly in Fishing and that he went accompanied only with two or three early in the morning Then Mr. Ireland replyed He were easily taken off or removed to which I answered God forbid being surprized at that time O said he I say not that it is lawful Then there happened some interruption to our Discourse about Staffordshire then we fell into a Discourse of their Religion that he said was suddenly to come into England and he asked me if I would be one of those that would go to Windsor to assist to take off the King I told him no then he told me he would remit the 20 l. I owed him if I would go to Windsor to be one of those that were to take off the King My Lords I told him I would have no hand in any such matter and that I would not for twenty times 20 l. have any hand in the Death of the King said he Would you do nothing for the bringing in of our Religion I told him I thought it would never come in by blood I told him further God forgive me if the King were taken off so well and good but I would have nothing to do with it He left not the Discourse there but asked me if I knew any Irishmen that were stout and couragious I told him yes I did and named Captain Levallian Mr. Karney Mr. Broghall and Mr. Wilson all Gentlemen of my acquaintance about Grays-Inn When I named these he asked me if I would go along with them to Windsor to assist them in taking off the King I told him I did not think any man of Estate would ingage in such a matter that I was Heir to an Estate my Brother being a Priest and that Captain Levallian was Heir to a very good Estate and therefore I did believe he would not do such a thing unless the Pique which he had to the King or Religion might move him to it My Lords be approved of these persons and said he knew the first two of them Levallian and Karney and he set down as I remember the other two Names in writing He told me he was going to the Club to Mr. Coleman and Mr. Levallian and Mr. Karney at that time and then asked me for the Money the Twenty pounds that I owed him He told me he wanted Fourscoure Pounds and he desired me that I would return it as soon as I came into the Countrey Now my Lords the same day that I received this Twenty pound of Ireland I went with Mr. Thomas Jenison the Jesuit to Harcourts Chamber to give the Fathers thanks for the Loan of the Money and there Mr. Jenison falling into Discourse on that common Topick of their Religion coming into England he did then use that Expression which Dr. Oats hath in his Narrative If C. R. would not be R. C. he should not be long C. R. And he did interpret it thus in Latine Si Carolus Rex non esset Rex Catholicus non foret din Carolus Rex And he did add my Lords upon the Discourse that if the King were Excommunicated or Deposed he was not longer King and it was no sin or no great sin to take him off and if it were discovered who did it two or three might perhaps suffer but denying the Fact the matter soon would be blown over My Lords about two Months after the Mustering the Forces upon Hounslowe-Heath Mr. Thomas Jenison did tell me he had a matter of great Consequence to impart to me that there was a Design on foot so laid as that it could not well be
discovered and that the greatest Papists the greatest Catholicks in England were in the Design That the Queen and the Duke were in it and that several Lords by name my Lord Bellasis my Lord Powis my Lord Arundel of Wardour and others I believe my Lord Stafford was named but I cannot be positive in that At that time my Lords I did wish I had had a Commission in the new raised Levies that were Mustered on Hounslowe-Heath he told me he would procure me a Commission from the Duke of York and that there was a new Army to be raised to bring in the Catholick Religion but he did say he would tell me more particulars after my receiving the Sacrament of Secresie and I did understand by him that that Commission was not to be sent till the taking off the King was effected but being I was surpâ—ised at it he would not tell me the whole matter but he desired me to come and receive the Sacrament at Sir Philip Tyrwhytts in Blomesbury and then he would acquaint me with the whole Affair My Lords being in Berkshire about the Month of December 78 at Madam Halls in Shinefield Parish one Mr. Cuffil a Jesuit came into our Company It was about the Tryal of Coleman and Mr. Cuffil did then say That he thought Mr. Coleman was infatuated upon the Discovery of the Plâ—t to give notice to Mr. Harcourt Mr. Ireland and Mr. Fenwick and the other Jesuits to burn or secure their Papers and yet not to secure his own My Sister Hall was present at this Discourse and Mr. Cuffil did then further say that Bellarmine did draw a Sentence out of the Scripture to favour the Popes Authority of Excommunicating Depriving and Deposing Temporal Princes and the saying was this Quòd Papa habeat eandem Potestatem super Reges quam Jehoiada habuit super Athaliam And that there were other corroborating Testimonies among the Fathers for it Mr. Treby My Lords we desire to ask him whether ever he heard of Mr. Oats being in the Plot or being thought Trust-worthy among them Mr. Jenison Yes my Lords I did L. H. Stew. When did you hear it and of whom Mr. Jenison Of my Brother Thomas Jenison the Jesuit L. H. Stew. When did he tell you so Mr. Jenison About the latter end of July 78. when there was a Discourse of a Design and that the greatest Papists were in it he said Mr. Oats a Parson newly come over to them was in that Design I answered I did wonder that he would trust a reconciled Enemy he answered That being once reconciled they were more Zealous and Trusty I submitted to his Opinion and instanced in Dr. Godwyn and Dr. Bayley that were Protestants and afterwards came over to the Church of Rome Mr. Treby We have done with him my Lord. L. H. Stew. Will your Lordship ask him any Questions my Lord Stafford L. Staff No my Lord. Sir Fr. Win. My Lords I would only observe the time when he says his Brother told him of the Design that it was about the time of the Mustering of the Forces upon Hounslowe-Heath and that he was then told Mr. Oats was in the Plot I only observe it now for the end of the Case in point of time L. H. Stew. He says it was in July Mr. Jenison It was two Months after the Mustering of the Forces about the latter end of July L. H. Stew. Before the Discovery Mr. Jenison Yes L. H. Stew. Did you know Oats at that time Mr. Jenison No my Lords I was not acquainted with him Sir John Trevor Did you not see him then Mr. Jenison Yes I saw him at Irelands Chamber Sir John Trevor When was that Mr. Jenison The latter end of April or the beginning of May. L. H. Stew. You say you did not know him in July How then can you say you saw him before Mr. Jenison I did not know him I only saw him come into Irelands Chamber and whisper for sometime two or three minutes and then they told me that that was Mr. Oats a Parson newly come over to them a brisk jolly man and worthy my acquaintance L. H. Stew. Is this the same man you saw there Mr. Jenison My Lords I can't remember his face for he was gone out when I was told of him L. H. Stew. Why you know Mr. Oats now Mr. Jenison Yes I do L. H. Steward Do you know him to be the same man that you saw then Mr. Jenison I can't tell that Sir John Trevor My Lords he says Mr. Oats only came in for three or four minutes and his back was towards him and his Brother told him when he was gone who it was Mr. Jenison I only knew his Name from my Brother Mr. Treby And I presume your Lordships will observe this was at the very time of the Jesuits Consult Sir John Trevor We desire this Gentleman may tell your Lordships who his Brother is and what Profession he is of Mr. Jenison My Brother was a Jesuit brought up at St. Omers L. H. Steward Your Brother is dead and died in Newgate Mr. Jenison Yes he did so L. H. Steward Pray recollect your self again When was it that you saw the man they called Oats at the Jesuits Chamber Mr. Jenison My Lords It was in the year 78 the latter end of April or the beginning of May. And I will tell you why I apprehend it to be that time My Brother being a Priest lived with Sir Phillip Tyrwhitt in Lincolnshire and in that year in Lent he came to Town with my Lady and that Family and he and I used to Dine together at the Fish Ordinary at Pedleys And about three weeks or a month after that time when he came to Town I was at Mr. Irelands Chamber and there was a Gentleman whom they told me was Oats L. H. Stew This you say was the latter end of April or beginning of May 78 for the time is material upon your Oath you say it Mr. Jenison Yes my Lords I do L. H. Stew. You say it was at Ireland's Chamber Mr. Jenison Yes my Lords Sir Fr. Win. My Lords will you give us leave to ask him one short Question because some of the Gentlemen doubt of it we would ask it again what his Brother was whether he was a Jesuit or no Mr. Jenison I have heard him own it my Lords L. H. Stew. Whom do you call next Gentlemen Mr. Treby If it please your Lordships we shall in the next place produce our Evidences that are matters of Record and we desire your Lordships advice and direction how we are to minister the same whether your Lordships will have them all read 〈…〉 of them and let them be left with your Lordships L. 〈…〉 〈…〉 Records are they Mr. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 are the Records of the Attainder of Coleman Ireland and the other Conspirators L. H. Stew. The Fact is so notorious that they were Attainted and Executed That the reading of a word will serve the turn Sir
do not oppose it my Lords L. H. Stew. My Lord call your Witnesses L. Stafford There is no place appointed for them and therefore I could not have them ready here I have sent for them I have a throng of them L. H. Stew. They will open the way and we will stay for them L. Stafford My Lords I desire that as Yesterday when the Witnesses were sworn against me mine did not hear what they said so I desire when my Witnesses come theirs may not be present L. H. Stew. My Lord with your Lordships Pardon it was not well done that your Witnesses were not there but if Witnesses be to confront one another shall they not hear what one another say L. Stafford My Lords I am so clear in every thing I will dispute no little matters Then my Lords Witness stood up Lord High Steward What is this mans name you call now my Lord L. Stafford Indeed my Lord I don't know Witness My Name is Bonny my Lords L. H. Stew. Does your Lordship call this man L. Staff Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. You are not upon your Oath but you are to look that a strict account will be taken of what you say Mr. Foley My Lords we desire to know where this Witness lives Bonny I live in Exeter-street by Exeter Exchange L. Staff I declare it I know him not but I am told he can witness for me L. H. Stew. Your Christian Name Bonny Thomas L. H. Stew. What Profession are you of Bonny I live as Clerk of the Kitchin to my Lord Marquess of Worcester Mr. Foley What Religion are you of Bonny A Protestant one of the Church of England L. Staff My Lords I humbly move your Lordships When I asked Mr. Smith the first day where he was made a Priest a Gentleman said he was not bound to answer any thing against himself that might make him Criminal I desire that the Question may not be put to my Witnesses what Religion they are of L. H. Stew. The Gentleman will not offer to ask any Question that may make a man accuse himself but my Lord a Papist or not a Papist is not so penal as a Priest or no Priest Mr. Foley To acknowledge a mans self a Papist is not to make him a Criminal L. H. Stew. What does your Lordship call this Witness for L. Staff To prove when I was at my Lord Marquess of Worcesters L. H. Stew. What say you when was my Lord Stafford at my Lord Marquess of Worcesters Bonny In August 78. L. H. Stew. Do you remember it perfectly Bonny Very well L. H. Stew. What day of August Bonny The 17. of August which my Lord Marquess keeps as his Wedding Day every Year and the Gentlemen of the Country are invited thither My Lord Stafford was then at Bath and my Lord Marquess was pleased to send his Coach for him to be present there that day there he staid that day and the next day and then returned on Monday And in the same month the 31. of August my Lord came again from Bath to Badminâ—on my Lord Marquess of Worcester's and upon the Monday after returned for London L. H. Stew. That was the beginning of September Bonny Yes the 2. he went to London L. H. Stew. Will you ask him Genlemen any Questions Managers No my Lords Lord High Steward Call another Witness then who stood up L. H. Stew. What is this mans Name Witness Thomas Witness Thomas White L. H. Stew. Thomas what L. H. Steward Where do you live White I live with my Lord Marquess of Worcester at Badminton L. H. Stew. What do you say White My Lords Lord Marquess of Worcester My Lord Steward I have only this to say my Lord Stafford desired that his Witnesses might not be asked what Religion they were of but I desire all my Servants may be asked for I keep none but Protestants Lord High Steward What Religion are you of White A Protestant L. Stafford My Lords I did not require it for them I know my Lord keeps none but Protestants but I asked it for others of my Witnesses that may come and be startled at it L. H. Steward What say you when was my Lord Stafford at my Lord Marquess of Worcester's House White The 17. of August 78. I fetched him from Bath being my Lords Wedding day L. H. Stew. You fetched him White Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. What place do you serve my Lord Marquess in White As Coachman L. H. Stew. Was he there afterwards White Yes he was but I can't remember the day only this being a remarkable day I can remember it L. H. Stew. Did you carry my Lord from thence towards London White Yes I did L. H. Stew. When was that White The second of September to the best of my remembrance L. H. Stew. Gentlemen Will you ask him any Questions Managers No. L. Stafford I think this is so clear I shall not need to trouble your Lordships further with more Witnesses L. H. Stew. Call whom you please my Lord and as many as you think fit they shall be heard L. Stafford One more then my Lords Who stood up L. High Stew. What is your Name Witness Richard Bevan L. H. Stew. Who do you live with Bevan I am Groom to my Lord Marquess of VVorcester L. H. Stew. What Religion are you of Bevan A Protestant Lord High Steward Do you remember when my Lord Stafford was at the Marquess of Worcester's House Bevan Yes I do Lord High Steward What time was it Bevan The 17. of August Lord High Steward Do you remember any other day Bevan No my Lord but he was there that day L. H. Steward Will you ask him any Questions Managers No my Lords L. Stafford My Lords if your Lordships please I desire my Lord Marquess of Worcester may tell your Lordships whether his men have said true or no. Lord Marquess of Worcester My Lords I do remember that my Lord Stafford was pleased to do me the Honour to come upon my Wedding day from the Bath and dine with me as most Persons of Quality that are of my acquaintance and happen to be at the Bath at that time are pleased to do And as most of the Gentlemen of the Countrey within such a distance do also And that day is the 17. of August I think he was there once or twice after from the Bath but I cannot tell precisely the days but that particular day I remember because it was my Wedding day L. H. Steward Can your Lordship remember when my Lord Stafford went to London Lord Marq. of Worcester Truly I cannot tell that my Lords L. H. Steward Did you not after that lend my Lord your Coach Lord Marq. of Worcester Yes I did to carry him as far as Sandy-lane on the Road to London but the particular day I remember not but one of the persons examined who was then my Clerk of the Kitchin must needs know because he books every day who is in
Stew. Do you live with him still Furnese Yes I do and have done this fourteen years L. H. Stew. What Country-man are you Furnese A Dutch-man L. H. Stew. Where born Furnese At Brussels Sir Franc. Winn. We would ask him what Perswasion or Religion he is of L. H. Stew. You may be sure of what answer you shall have Furnese I am a Roman Catholick L. Stafford That is as good as a Jew Mr. Treby The Question is not intended for any harm not with any purpose to criminate him 't is only in regard of his Credit in this matter L. H. Stew. Call another Witness my Lord. L. Stafford Where is George Leigh Who stood up L. H. Stew. How old are you Leigh I am about fifteen or sixteen L. Stafford My Lords I believe he is eighteen or nineteen Mr. Treby Whose servant is he L. Stafford He is my Servant he hath served me seven or eight years L. H. Stew. What does your Lordship call him for L. Stafford To tell you whether I bid my Servants to go out when Dugdale came in and whether ever he saw Dugdale and I alone L. H. Stew. George Leigh How long have you lived with my Lord Stafford Leigh Seven years the 10. of June last L. H. Stew. Why then you were but nine years old when you came to him Leigh No my Lords I think I was not L. High Stew. Do you remember when my Lord Stafford was at Tixall Leigh I do not remember the month very well L. H. Stew. Do you remember the time of the Race at Etching-Hill Leigh I do not remember the day but I was at it L. H. Stew. Did Mr. Dugdale come into your Lords chamber that morning Leigh I do not remember he was there that very morning L. Stafford Be pleased to ask him whether ever I bid him go out of my chamber when Dugdale was there L. H. Steward Did you ever see Dugdale any other morning in your Lords Chamber Leigh My Lords I think not I am not certain he was there one morning and it was about a Race but I am not certain what Race it was whether it was two Boys ran or two Men. L. H. Steward Did your Lord bid you go out of his Chamber Leigh No my Lords L. Stafford Dugdale says I often sent him for him pray ask him that Question L. H. Stew. My Lord this Boy does not remember that Dugdale at all was at your Chamber that time of the Race at Etching-Hill so that it is not material to the thing in question L. Stafford Yes my Lords Dugdale told your Lordships yesterday that I sent this Boy often for him L. H. Stew. Did ever this Boy come for you Mr. Dugdale Yes he hath I am sure come to my Chamber for me to go to my Lord. L. H. Stew. Were you sent for by my Lord more than once Mr. Dugdale Yes several times L. H. Stew. Before or after the Race Mr. Dugdale Both before the Race and after the Race L. H. Stew. By whom were you sent for Mr. Dugdale Sometimes by the Gentleman that was last examined and sometimes by this Boy L. H. Stew. Did you ever come from my Lord Stafford to bid Dugdale come to him Leigh My Lords I do not remember that ever I did L. H. Stew. 'T is an hard thing to remember so long L. Stafford If ever he came once to me and was alone with me I will be content to acknowledge all this to be true Pray ask the other man if ever I sent him for him L. H. Stew. He did testifie before that he came with him that day to your Lordships Chamber L. Stafford That day my Lords But he says other days I sent for him L. H. Stew. Call Furnese again Who stood up Furnese did my Lord Stafford ever send you for Dugdale either before or after the Race Furnese Never my Lords to his Chamber Lord High Stew. Did he ever in his life send you to Mr. Dugdale to speak with him as you remember Furnese Never my Lords L. Stafford He was my Lords such a Fellow I could not endure he should come near me such an Impudent lying Fellow L. H. Stew. Have you any more Witnesses my Lord. L. Stafford Yes a great many L. H. Stew. Call them all I pray Lord Stafford My Lords I hope you think I would not be so great and impudent a Fool to employ such a Fellow as this who not long after run away from my Lord Aston's L. H. Steward Who did Lord Stafford Stephen Dugdale And for that if you please I would call some Witnesses L. H. Stew. Call Furnese again who stood up Did you ever see Dugdale and my Lord Stafford together Furnese Never in my life L. H. Stew. Why you saw them together that morning you brought him to the Chamber Then the Auditory laughed Furnese Never alone L. Stafford I did not think I was in a Cock-Pitt or a Play-House But if your Lordships please to let me call my Witnesses to prove That Dugdale ran away from my Lord Aston I shall call for that Thomas Sawyer Who stood up L. H. Stew. What is your Name Witness Sawyer L. H. Stew. Your Christian Name Witness Thomas L. H. Stew. Who do you live withall Sawyer My Lord Aston L. H. Stew. Where do you live Sawyer At Tixall L. H. Stew. Are you my Lord Aston's Servant Sawyer Yes L. H. Stew. How long have you been so Sawyer Six years and ever since Michaelmas L. H. Stew. What have you to say Sawyer As to Dugdale's reputation I have this to say How that he went from my Lord Aston's for debt and was taken by the Watch at Heywood L. H. Steward When was that Sawyer The latter end of November or the beginning of December L. H. Steward What Year Sawyer 78. L. H. Stew. Then the Family broke up Sawyer And coming thither and being taken by the Watch he was brought by the Justices to Tixall and after the Justices had been with my Lord their resolution was to carry him to the Gaol So coming to Tixal where Dugdale was at an Ale house he desired me to go to my Lord and desire him that he would own him as his Servant for he was so much in debt that he should else be undone for ever In the mean time Mr. Philips the Parson of the Town had been with my Lord for Dugdale had desired him to go to him also and he asking me whither I was going said I I am going to my Lord from Dugdale to desire him to own him as his Servant said he I have been with my Lord just now and he said he will not own him as his Servant it was his own act and deed So Mr. Philips and I came back to him and told him So he sat down in the Chair and then rose up again and swore He would be revenged of my Lord Aston if ever it lay in his power Lord High Steward You never heard him say
to Tixal L. H. Stew. How long is that Mr. Philips About fourteen years L. H. Stew. What Reputation had he in the Country was he looked upon as one that would perjure himself Mr. Philips I never knew any thing of that Lord High Steward Was he thought a stout man Mr. Philips He was in good repute with some and indifferent with others L. H. Stew. Will you call any more Witnesses my Lord L. Stafford I would only ask him one Question Whether he did go to my Lord Aston from Dugdale to know if he would own him for his Servant Lord High Steward What say you Sir did you Mr. Philips Yes my Lords he knows very well I did he did request me to go to him My Lord Aston I was loth to go to because I had no familiarity with him nor Interest in him but he did request and urge me so much that I did go by much motives and persuasions from him and I did speak to my Lord so I told him the Message I had was from Mr. Dugdale who would request of my Lord that he would own him for his Servant for if he did not he knew not what to do with himself but if he did he might be free from the Gaol and from the Oaths and escape the Troubles that were upon him So my Lord replyed to me 'T is his own act and deed and I have nothing to do with him and let the Justices do what they will with him which were Sir Walter Bagott and Mr. Kinnersley Mr. Foley We desire to know whether he heard any discourse about a Plot at that time or no. Mr. Philips Truly my Lords I heard a talk of a Plot but not at that time Mr. Foley My Lords I desire to know if he took Mr. Dugdale for a person that might be in the Plot if there was any such thing Mr. Philips I cannot tell how to answer that 't is an hard Question I am not so intimately acquainted with persons whose secrets are not reposed in me L. Staff The next Witness I desire may be with the leave of the Gentlemen of the House of Commons Sir Walter Bagott I did desire him to be here Sir Will. Jones There he is we do not oppose it L. H. Stew. Is it your Lordships pleasure that Sir Walter Bagott be heard in his place Lords Yes Sir Walter Bagott L. H. Stew. What would you ask Sir Walter my Lord L. Staff My Lords I desire to ask Sir Walter Bagott whether he did not apprehend Dugdale and upon what account it was L. H. Stew. Sir Walter Bagott my Lord desires to know of you whether you did apprehend Dugdale and upon what account Sir Walter Bagott My Lords Mr. Dugdale was taken at an unseasonable time of night and brought to me the next morning by the Watch as the other Witnesses have told your Lordships and I took him away to Stafford where there were several other Justices of the Peace there we offered him the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy which he took After the taking of these Oaths we told him that he was a likely man to know something of the Plot and it was a very proper time for him to discover it to us that were Justices he at that time did deny the knowledge of it that is all I can say Lord Stafford I desire Sir Walter Bagott may be asked whether he did not go to my Lord Aston to see whether he would own Dugdale as his Servant L. H. Stew. Did you ask my Lord Aston to own him for his Servant Sir Walt. Bag. Yes I did for my Lords house being in the way to Stafford whither I was going I called upon him to know if Mr. Dugdale were his Servant he told me he was no servant of his and he would not receive him Upon which I and another Justice of the Peace that was with me took him to Stafford The occasion of our meeting there was to summon in the Militia upon an Alarm of the Papists being risen in Derbyshire L. Stafford I make this use of it my Lords that my Lord Aston would not receive him and if my Lord Aston had known he had been in the Plot and could have discovered him he would not have disobliged him L. H. Stew. Nay he says more then that which you don't hear he says when they examined him they gave him the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy and then told him he would do well to discover his knowledge of the Plot and then he did not own any thing he knew nay he denyed it Mr. Foley Did he deny the knowing of it Sir Walter Bagott Yes he did then Sir Fran. Win. He was not resolved to discover at that time Mr. Serj. Maynard We desire Sir Walter Bagott may be asked whether he examined him upon his Oath or no. Sir Walter Bagott No I did not Mr Serj. Mayn But had they then just given him the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy Sir Walter Bagott Yes my Lords we gave him those Oaths and those only L. Stafford Then Mr. Kinnersley if you please who stood up Be pleased to ask this worthy Gentleman what he knows about Dugdales going from my Lord Aston L. H. Stew. First let us know this Gentleman L. Stafford His name is Kinnersley Mr. Kinnersley What Questions would your Lordship ask me L. Stafford What you know about Dugdales going from my Lord Aston L. H. Stew. Mr. Kinnersley we must know your Christian Name Mr. Kinnersley Thomas L. H. Stew. Do you know Mr. Dugdale Mr. Kinnersley My Lords I was not acquainted with Mr. Dugdale till Sir Brian Broughton Sir Walter Bagott and I and others gave him the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy the latter end of November or the beginning of December I did not take notice exactly of the time L. H. Stew. What year Mr. Kinnersley 78 L. H. Stew. Well Sir go on Mr. Kinnersley When he had taken the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy I asked him if he knew any Treason or Conspiracy against the King telling him it was a seasonable time to declare it He told me he knew of none This is all I know and all the discourse that I remember we had with Mr. Dugdale Mr. Serj. Maynard Pray why did you ask him that Question Mr. Kinnersley The Plot was then newly broken out Mr. Serj. Maynard Why did you ask him so particularly Mr. Treby Why did you think Mr. Dugdale concerned in it Mr. Kinnersley Because we heard he was a Papist and my Lord Aston's Servant L. Staff Then I desire Sir Thomas Whitegrave may be examined Who stood up L. H. Stew. What say you to Sir Tho. Whitegrave my Lord L. Staff Will your Lordships please to ask Sir Tho. Whitegrave whether he did not examine Dugdale about the Plot and what he said at that time Sir Tho. Whitegrave My Lords I came to Stafford the latter end of November or the beginning of December I am not certain which but I think it
to any one but I have no more to say to him now There is a third Witness one Turbervill I desire to ask him a Question L. H. Stew. Call Turbervill who stood up Lord Stafford I desire to know what time he came to serve my Lady Molineaux for it is in the beginning of the Information in the House of Commons that he came in the year 73. and how long he staid with her L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford if your Lordship please there was an offer made to you that those Affidavits should be produced if you desired to see them L. Stafford I think I shall have no occasion as yet it may be I may by and by But I desire to ask him this Question first whether he did not say he came in the year 73. into my Lady Mary Molineaux her Service and staid with her about three years L. H. Stew. Did he swear in the year 73. he came L. Stafford 'T is so in his Narrative in Print L. H. Stew. Do you own that Narrative in Print for true Mr. Turbervill No my Lords L. H. Stew. How can you challenge him then with a Narrative he does not own L. Stafford Then what can a man do if he must not go according to what is Printed Mr. Turbervill There is a mistake in the Printing of it there is a mistake of 73. for 72. L. Stafford I now desire that Affidavit may be produced L. H. Steward Pray let him have the benefit that was offered him of the Affidavit Mr. Turbervill Besides I declared I could not be positive to a year I own any thing else in it L. Stafford Then my Lords if I shall have fellows that will not swear to Months nor to years I beg of your Lordships to know whether these be legal Witnesses Managers The Affidavit is in the Custody of Sir William Poulteney a Member of our House Sir Will. Poulteney My Lords I have the Affidavit if you please I shall give you an account what I did upon it and Sir Thomas Stringer another Justice of Peace My Lords after that Mr. Turbervill had given his Evidence to the House of Commons Vivavoce he tendred to them this Information that I have in my hand The House of Commons after it had been read thought it might be convenient to have it sworn to before two Justices of Peace Whereupon Sir Thomas Stringer and my self withdrew into the Speakers Chamber Mr. Turbervill came to us we read over the Information to him again and after we had read it over it was signed and he swore it In this Information when we then took it he declared there that he came to my Lord Powis in the year 1673 and came into England 1676. After we had sworn him we carried this Information into the House again The next morning my Lords he came to me I being one of the Justices that had sworn him and told me that searching among his Papers the last night for a Letter which he had said he had received from my Lord Stafford sent to Diep though he could not find the Letter he looked for yet he found that the precise time that he went to live with my Lord Powis was 1672 and the precise time of his coming into England was 1675. And he desired me to acquaint the House of Commons with it that this Circumstance of time might be altered Whereupon my Lords I did acquaint the House of Commons with it how he was mistaken in that point of a Circumstance of time and that he came of his own accord and desired me to move the House in it I moved the House and they did direct we should withdraw again and take his Information again and that he should amend it he amended it and made the 73 72 and the 76 75 and then afterwards we swore him to it again de novo and this is the matter of Fact concerning the Affidavit L. H. Stew. Sir William Poultney Did Mr. Turbervill correct the mistake himself first or was it found and altered by others Sir William Poultney My Lords he came to me for I did not know any thing of it that he was mistaken but he came to me the next morning assoon as ever I came to the House before indeed I entred into the House and told me of the mistake and told me the reasons how he came to recollect himself and find out the mistake L. H. Stew. Mr. Turbervill I would ask you the Question how came you to be informed that you had mistaken your self Mr. Turbervill My Lords I 'll tell you I was searching for a Letter which I received from my Lord Stafford and missing that I found my Discharge I had from the French Army wherein I saw my mistake as to the time and that I have to produce L. H. Stew. I ask you again by the Oath you have taken did you correct it of your self or by information from any other Mr. Turbervill By the Oath I have taken I did correct it of my self and no body moved it to me Mr. Serj. Mayn It was but a Circumstance of time Sir Fran. Winn. And corrected by himself the very next morning my Lords L. Stafford He does acknowledge he did forswear himself once and did make himself an honest man the next day when he was a perjured Villain the day before And now he tells your Lordships that he was searching for a Letter that I sent to him but he cannot find it Mr. Turbervill No my Lords I thought I had it but I cannot find it L. Stafford No I 'le swear thou canst not But then he does say that he had a Discharge from the French Army Mr. Turbervill Yes 't is here my Lord. L. H. Stew. Is that the Paper of your Discharge Mr. Turbervill Yes it is 'T is worn out a little and torn but the Seal is preserved I did not know that ever I should have occasion to make use of it but my Lord Challenging me for a Coward and a Deserter of my Colours L. Stafford I say so still for I have heard so L. H. Stew. Your Honour is not in question Mr. Turbervill Mr. Turbervill The Title is a little torn and if your Lordships please I will read it which he did being in French and is rendred in English in these words THis certifieth to all to whom it shall appertain that I have given an absolute Discharge to the Sieur Turbervill a Cavalier of my Company after having served the space of six months with all Honour and Fidelity Therefore I desire those that are to be desired to treat him Civilly and let him pass and re-pass without doing him any Injury or giving him any hindrance But on the contrary to afford him all Aid and Assistance where it shall be necessary promising the like upon all occasions that shall require it In Confirmation of which I have for him signed this present Discharge and thereto put the Seal of my Arms to
and some years since and was the great Confident of the said Lady and the said Remige was for the most part taken with her Ladyship into Morgan's Chamber when the Consults were held there where he hath often seen Father Gavan Father Towers Father Evans Father Sylliard Roberts White Owens Barry and the Earl of Castlemain and other Priests and Jesuits meet and shut themselves up in the said Morgan's Chamber sometimes for an Hour sometimes for two Hours more or less and at the breaking up of the said Consults have broke out into an extasie of joy saying They hoped ere long the Catholick Religion would be established in England and that they did not doubt to bring about their Design notwithstanding they had met with one great Disappointment which was the Peace struck up with Holland saying that if the Army at Blackheath had been sent into Holland to assist the French King when he was with his Army near Amsterdam Holland had certainly been conquered and then the French King would have been able to assist us with an Army to establish Religion in England Which expressions with many others importing their confidence to set up the Romish Religion they frequently communicated to this Informant And the said Morgan went several times into Ireland to London and several other parts of England as this Informant hath just cause to believe to give and take measures for carrying on the Design and the said Remige and her Husband having first clandestinely sold their Estate and fled into France about May or June last for fear of discovery This Informant by many Circumstances being assured that the said Mrs. Remige was privy to all or most of the Transactions of the Plot. And he saith that about May last was two Years he was present at Mass with the Lord Powis in Verestreet when the Earl of Castlemain did say Mass in his Priestly Habit after the Rites and Ceremonies of the Church of Rome EDWARD TVRBERVILL Sworn the 9th day of November 1680. before Thomas Stringer William Poulteny Edmund Warcupp L. H. Steward My Lord this Affidavit is to the purpose to which you call for it this does say that your Lordship did go by the way of Calice it does absolutely so L. Stafford Now whether he be forsworn or no your Lordships may judge by these three Witnesses Mr. Turbervill My Lords that which I grounded my belief of his going to Calice upon and so consequently that Affidavit was the Letter which I received from my Lord which I have looked for but cannot find L. H. Stew. This Affidavit does not say you went from Calice to England but you went with Count Gramont to Calice L. Stafford I conceive my Lords this Affidavit and his Narrative are word for word the same only that Amendment of 72 for 73 upon which I observed before he was forsworn once I cannot tell what to say if this man can be believed And Count Gramont came by Diep too but besides my Lords in this Affidavit he does not say he believed so by the Letter tho' now he speaks of one L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford was Count Gramont in your Lordships company when you came to Diep L. Stafford No my Lords he was in England before me a month but my Lords I cannot deny but I had one recommended to come over with me that pretended himself to be a French Count but the man was as errant a Rascal as this that swears against me and that was one that called himself Count de Brienne whom all the world knows to be a Cheat. L. H. Stew. Call your other Witnesses my Lord. L. Stafford Where is John Minhead Who stood up L. H. Steward Who do you belong to Minhead My Lord Powis L. Stafford My Lords Mr. Turbervill he says by the persuasion of my Lady Powis went to Doway and he staid in the Monastery three weeks and not liking that life he came away this may be true I say nothing to it But that which I take Exception at is this He says for this the Earl of Powis and his Lady when he came back from Doway were very angry with him and so were all his Relations and he stood in fear of his life from them Surely when Mr. Turbervill knew he was in such danger he would not have come near them Pray ask this Gentleman whether he was at my Lord Powis's and how he was entertained L. H. Steward Do you know Turbervill Minhead Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. Have you seen him at my Lord Powis's Minhead Yes my Lords L. H. Stew How was he received there Minhead Very well my Lords L. H. Stew When was that Minhead In the year 75. L. H. Stew. Was that before or after he came back to England Minhead It was after he came from Doway L. H. Stew. What Country man are you Minhead A French man L. H. Stew. What Religion are you of Minhead A Roman Catholick L. Stafford Pray ask him whether he lay in my Lords house Minhead Yes my Lords he lay with me in my lodgings L. Stafford And yet he says he was afraid of his life L. H. Stew. Did my Lord know he lay there Minhead Yes he must needs because he came through the Room to go to Bed L. Stafford May it please your Lordships he says he was threatned that he should have his Brother disinherit him and which afterwards was compassed Now I shall shew that this is impossible for he had no Inheritance to lose nor was to have none for his Brother who is elder than he this man being by a second Venter hath Children as I shall make appear by another of his Brothers who is here And this not being settled upon him who was by the second Venter could not come to him but for want of Issue of that Brother must go to the Uncle So he swears he was disinherited of an Estate when he was to have no Estate nor could have Call Mr. John Turbervill who appeared My Lords I desire you to ask him whether he knew that upon his coming back to England he was ill used Mr. J. Turbervill I never knew any unkindness from my elder Brother to him L. H. Stew. Are you his Brother Mr. J. Turbervill Yes my Lords by the Father not by the Mother L. H. Stew. Well what can you say Mr. J. Turbervill I never heard any thing when he returned from Doway that he was ill received by my Lord Powis but in a few days after my Brother and Sister came to Town we went to Bloomesbury and there we met together and my Brother complaining that he was unfortunate in that he had undertaken what he could not perform in going beyond Sea and now wanted a Livelihood my eldest Brother told him he had done as far as his Ability was he could do no more it was his own Choice and he had no more to say L. Staff Had he any money from his Relations Mr. J. Turbervill He
H. Stew. What is your Name VVitness VVilliam Southall Mr. Foley Give my Lords an account how long you have known Dugdale and what you know of him Mr. Southall My Lords I have known Mr. Stephen Dugdale about eight years Mr. Foley How hath he behaved himself What Reputation hath he born Mr. Southall Truly he hath always had a good repute not only with my Lords Tenants but also with the Workmen and those people that had dependance on the Family and truly I never heard any ill report of him but only what is spoken of now of late Sir Fr. VVinn Were you very well acquainted with him Mr. Southall Yes but never had any business with him Several discourses I have had with him about the Popish Religion Sir John Trevor My Lords I only observe this This Gentleman is Coroner of the County and hath a general knowledge of the County and must know most men there Sir Fran. VVinnington You are Coroner of the County of Stafford Sir I think Mr. Southall Yes I am one of them Mr. Foley What was he in my Lords House Mr. Southall Bailiff and a kind of Governour providing meat and paying Workmen most of the things of the Family went through his hands Sir Fran. Winn. My Lords This Gentleman is a Coroner of the County and can speak materially to other particulars besides this of Dugdale's Reputation for he was a person who was present when he made his first discovery of this Plot and was very instrumental in prevailing with him to do it He will give your Lordships an account of the whole business and I would rather he himself should relate all the progress of it than take upon me to recite any of the passages Mr. Southall There was the latter end of November 78. a Report that Mr. Dugdale was gone away from my Lord Aston's suddenly and strangely and it was the common report in the Country that he was in the Plot and was fled for it In the beginning of December I went through a Town called Great Heywood a Mile and a half from Tixal where my Lord Aston and Mr. Dugdale dwelt I called at Mr. Thomas Whitby's House the Gentleman that was up here lately and he was telling me Dugdale was come again and apprehended by the Watch at Heywood upon suspicion He told me further he would make no confession of the Plot though he had been under Examination before Sir VValter Bagott Mr. Kinnersley and I think he said Sir Thomas VVhitgrave But he told me divers passages by which we both suspected he might be concerned and know of the Plot. We thought so from the various reports and rumors we had heard in the Country and from those great grounds of suspicion that were given us As I returned from Heywood I resolved I would speak with Dugdale the first opportunity for I had a strong perswasion I could prevail with him to make a discovery of the Plot but before I did speak with him there was one Goldsmith my Kinsman had some difference fallen out between him and Mr. Ansell and Mr. Dugdale touching a Deed the deciding of which they had referred to Mr. Dugdale And he desired me to go to Mr. Dugdale to Stafford with him I was very glad of the opportunity Ansel was to bring one Hanson Mr. Goldsmith was to bring me and Mr. Dugdale was to bring one Mr. Gerrard that was concerned in the Premortgage that we might all have discourse together I promised to meet them at the time appointed and accordingly the 23 th of December two days before Christmas-day I came to the place in Stafford where Dugdale was about Ten a Clock in the Morning where they met according to their promise We had not been in the House longer than a quarter of an hour but the Kings business which I thought was a business of greater weight than any particular business did stick much upon me and I resolved before I spoke to the particular business about which we all met I would first speak to Mr. Dugdale to put that in execution which I had resolved After a short space of time I desired Mr. Dugdale that I might speak with him in a Chamber privately between him and me he told me if I would go into the next Chamber to his he would come to me Accordingly I went and staid a short space of time and Mr. Dugdale came to me I desired him to make the Door to which he did and I began thus with him Mr. Dugdale â—â—id I for some Years last past since I came to be acquainted with you I have always had a good esteem of you and you a good report in the Country where you live and now there is an opportunity put into your hands to serve his Majesty and his Protestant Subjects if as an honest man ought you will discharge your Duty Mr. Dugdale replyed Sir what do you mean Why said I I mean this in a few words Here is a Plot discovered in London and if it be in London I conceive it hath been in part acted at Tixal and if there of necessity you having such a Government and Rule over that House it is impossible but you must know it He looked upon me very earnestly and gave me a smile but answered me not I replied to him again thus said I There is a natural Allegiance which every Subject owes to his Soveraign and by that it is required that if any Subjects know of any Plot or any Conspiracy against his Person and Government they ought in Conscience to discover it therefore Mr. Dugdale said I discharge a good Conscience and tell what you know for it is commonly suspected you are concerned in the Plot. He answered I have taken the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy When and where said I Before his Majesties Justices of the Peace at Stafford said he Then said I there is not only that natural Allegiance which every Subject owes to his Prince but the Oath of Almighty God lies upon your Conscience therefore discharge a good Conscience and tell your knowledge He stood pausing a little while and by and by said he If I should make any discovery how should I be secured of my Life You need not Question that said I nor his Majesties Gracious Pardon which he hath promised in his Proclamation Have you seen the Proclamation Yes said he Said I you have but a short time a day or two to discover in for this is the 23 th and as I do conceive you ought to discover before the 25 th he stood pausing a while about the time said I you need not question his Majesties Gracious Promise and to incourage you thereto there is not only an assurance of Pardon but a promise of Reward of Two hundred pounds Said he if I do discover any thing of my knowledge I matter not nor desire I don't know which it was his Majesties Money so I may be secured of my Life Upon this my Lords said I
about the point of time when Hobson told him of the Design Sir Will. Jones My Lords That will be when we come to make our Observations we shall not answer that by Witnesses when we come to sum up our Evidence I doubt not but we shall give a sufficient Answer to that Objection But to go on with what is to be answered by Testimony your Lordships will be pleased to remember That Turbervill did inform your Lordships That he had some converse with my Lord Stafford at Paris being introduced by some of the Fathers My Lords we shall call a Gentleman that had happened to be there at that time that will tell you though he did not know my Lord Stafford yet he knew that Turbervill did converse much with an English Lord in that place where my Lord does acknowledge his Lodging to be He will give you some further account how Turbervill went to Diep in expectation of my Lord and how he had a Message from the Lord though he did not know my Lord Stafford He will give you a further account how Mr. Turbervill was earnest with him to go to Calice and then told him he might go over with my Lord at that time The use we make of these particulars we will forbear to mention till we sum up our Evidence We desire to examine Mr. Thomas Mort. Who was sworn Sir Will. Jones We desire to ask Mr. Mort whether he knew Mr. Turbervill at Paris and at what time L. H. Steward What say you Sir Mr. Mort. Yes my Lords I knew him it is now five years past since we were in Paris He and I had been intimately acquainted before we lived in the same Family I was several times in company with him and many times in his Brothers company which was a Monk and I heard him say his Brother had an intention he should be of the same Order And some time after that he altered his resolution and designed for England and I had such a design too to go from Paris where I was an Apprentice And being acquainted with him I resolved to go over with him and he told me his Brother the Monk had introduced him into the favour of a Lord as I take it it was my Lord Stafford as well as I can remember And that there was a Vessel to come to Diep a Yaught and we should go thither to go over with my Lord. And Mr. Turbervill told me we must make as much hast as might be for it were better to be there a day or two too soon than too late We went to Diep and when we came there the Vessel was not come And when we had been there a fortnight or thereabouts we were put to a great deal of inconveniency by reason of our long stay there and I think if I mistake not I or some of the Company said Cursed is he that relies or depends on a broken Staff alluding as I believe to my Lord Stafford's Name Mr. Turbervill told me if we did go to Calice we might go over with my Lord but how or by what means he understood the Vessel would be there and my Lord go that way I know not But we did not go thither we had another opportunity there was a small Vessel whether a Fish-Boat or a Coal-Vessel I cannot tell a very little one it was but we took the opportunity and came over in it Sir Will. Jones My Lords we shall make use of it in due time we only call him now to prove his converse with a Lord at Paris L. H. Steward Did you ever see Turbervill at a Lords House in Paris Mr. Mort. No my Lords not that I can remember but I think as near as I remember I will not be positive I walked about Luxenburgh House while he went as he said to the place where the Lord lodged I was thereabouts till he came L. Stafford In what Street was it Mr. Mort. Indeed I cannot tell Sir W. Jones This man is very cautious L. H. Steward Can you tell the Lords Name Mr. Mort. I do not remember his Title but I think it was my Lord Stafford Sir William Jones Pray who were you Servant to Who were you bred under Mr. Mort. My Lord Powis I served as Page to him when Mr. Turbervill was Gentleman-Usher to the Young Lady one of his Daughters since married to my Lord Molineux Sir Will. Jones Will my Lord please to ask him any Questions if not we will go on L. Stafford No not at present Sir Will. Jones Well then my Lords we desire to call one Mr. Powell a Gentleman of Grays-Inn to tell you when he first heard Mr. Turbervill speak of this Evidence he hath now given Mr. Powell was sworn Sir W. Jones Pray will you give an account what discourse you had with Mr. Turbervill about the Plot and when Mr. Powell About this time Twelve-month we discoursed about it and he told me that he had much to say in relation to the Plot but truly he did not name any particulars to me at that time Sir Will. Jones Where was this we desire to ask him Mr. Powell It was at the Kings-head Tavern in Holborn Sir William Jones Are you sure it was a year ago Mr. Powel It was about this time Twelve-month Sir Will. Jones What was the reason he did not think fit then to reveal it Did he tell the reason Mr. Powel I think he gave me a reason That he was something cautious because he feared he might disoblige his Brother at that time Sir VV. Jones Did he give you any further reason Mr. Powel I think he said he was afraid he should not have incouragement enough for he said some of the Witnesses had been discouraged and he was afraid he should be so too Sir VV. Jones Now we shall call a few Witnesses to Mr. Turbervill's Reputation which have known him a good while Mr. Hobby L. H. Stew. Was this time that Mr. Powel speaks of that he did discourse with him before or after that of Yalden Sir W. Jones My Lords We do not know of any discourse with Yalden nay we believe none such was This Witness speaks of a Year since L. H. Steward What time does Yalden speake of Sir VVilliam Jones February or March last and this was a year ago L. H. Steward This was then before that certainly Sir VVilliam Jones We desire Mr. Arnold a Member of the House of Commons may be sworn which was done in his place Sir VVilliam Jones Do you know Mr. Turbervill Mr. Arnold My Lords I do know him very well and I have known him these two years he came recommended to me from his Grace my Lord Duke of Buckingham My Lords presently after the breaking out of the Plot he was sent down into our Countrey by the Lords of your Lordships House that were of the Committee and a particular recommendation from the Duke of Buckingham to me to give him direction and assistance to find
I do not think we shall need to trouble your Lordships more with this matter that my Lord was lame sometime he is pleased to confess One Witness says that he put his Foot on a Cushion my Lord does not acknowledge that L. Stafford I was never lame at Paris Sir VVill. Jones That a man that is lame does sometimes ease his Foot is no hard Consequence I think L. Stafford I deny I was lame then I walked about the streets of Paris I desire I may not be misunderstood Sir VVill. Jones I must then desire under his Lordships favour if he will not acknowledge it to be within seven years that we may prove it and falsifie his Witness the Page L. Stafford I have gone with a stick to the House I acknowledge it and been lame with weariness Sir Fr. VVinn The Objection went to the Credit of our Witness and therefore we desire to answer it my Lord was not lame as he says for so many years but if we prove that within less time my Lord hath been lame it will take off that Objection from our Witness And we desire a Noble Lord or two of this House may testifie what they know And first the Earl of Stamford who was sworn Earl of Stamford My Lords I think I have not had the honour to sit in this House much above seven years but long since that time I have seen my Lord Stafford come lame into the House of Peers and that is all I can say L. Stafford I have come lame with a stick to the House I say Sir Fr. Winn. My Lords we desire that Noble Lord my Lord Lovelace may be sworn which was done Lord Lovelace My Lords the Account that I can give your Lordships is this I cannot ascertain any time but I am sure and I do declare it upon my Honour and the Oath I have taken that I have seen my Lord Stafford lame in the House of Lords within less than this seven years L. Stafford If he goes home to the Tower he may see me lame but never put my Foot upon a stool Sir Will. Jones My Lords your Lordships will be pleased to remember we did call a Witness one Thomas Launder and the account we had of him was he was gone sick from the Bar he was very sick indeed but being just now brought we desire he may be heard though it be out of time we call him to the Reputation of Holt. Thomas Launder was sworn Sir John Trevor Do you declare to my Lords whether you know Samuel Holt Launder Yes my Lords I do L. H. Steward What do you know of him Launder He is a Smith my Lords L. H. Steward What Reputation is he of Launder Indifferent my Lords Sir William Jones What do you mean by that good or bad speak plainly Launder A Drunken Sot a man that will Drink and Rant and Tear the Ground and sing two or three days or a week together and lose his time Sir Fr. Winn. I would ask this man whether he was summoned as a Witness upon any Tryal in relation to the Plot L. H. Stew. Were you ever summon'd as a Witness about the Plot Launder My Lords I was summon'd concerning my Lord Aston's Tryal and I came up with my Lord Aston's people as an Evidence Sir W. Jones Had you any offer of money and what sum Launder Yes my Lords Sir Fr. Winn. Acquaint my Lords with it L. H. Stew. Who offered it you and when and for what Sir Will. Jones For what was that money offered you Launder The money was not absolutely offered me but I was to have an Horse to ride on and money in my Pocket if I could take off James Ansel Dugdale's Evidence L. H. Stew. Who came and offered it to you Launder I was sent for by Mr. Fox to Tixal Hall and there was my old Lords Brother for one and Mr. Thomas Aston that is this young Lords Brother and Mr. Francis Aston who is my Lords eldest Son were in a Room together and this Thomas Sawyer that was here and more were in the Room when they promised all these things L. H. Steward If you would do what Launder If I would take my Oath that this James Ansell was a Perjured Rogue L. H. Stew. Did all they make you this promise Launder Yes my Lords Mr. Fotey It was a Consult together about taking off the Evidence Sir Will Jones My Lords we have done with our Witnesses if my Lord Stafford please to conclude we are ready to do so too L. Stafford What should I conclude about those Witnesses you have now brought in Sir W. Jones Your Lordship may please to conclude your Evidence we are ready to conclude on our part L. Stafford These new Witnesses must I say what I can say against them presently I cannot do it I know very few of them L. H. Steward Have you any Witnesses here my Lord L. Stafford I cannot possibly have any For I did not know nor guess these people would be brought against me They are persons I know nothing of Ansell I have seen four or five times I may have seen the rest but I do not know them to be able to give an accompt of them L. H. Stew. If you have any Witnesses here to support the credit of your own Witnesses that have been impeached you may call them L. Stafford I have none my Lords L. H. Stew. Will your Lordship recapitulate the material parts of your Defence that the Process may be closed L. Stafford I am very unready for it my Lords Let me ask Mr. VVhitby a Question if I must have no more time Mr. Whitby stood up L. H. Stew. There he is what would your Lordship have with him L. Stafford I do not know the Gentleman Mr. VVhitby Nor I your Lordship Lord Stafford I ask him upon the Oath he hath taken I know he will speak truth whether he did not some years ago tell my Lord Aston that is dead this Lord's Father That Dugdale was a Knave and persuaded him to turn him away I say not it is true but I have heard so and desired him to tell his Son so that he might quit himself of him L. H. Steward What say you Mr. VVhitby Mr. VVhitby My Lords about three or four years ago my Lord Aston that is dead I believe it may be two years last April sent for me to dine with him and when I came thither he told me says he Mr. VVhitby I have sent to you to acquaint you with a thing but I do not believe it before I tell it you What is it said I said he Stephen Dugdale hath acquainted me that you have employed persons upon the Water to destroy my Water said I my Lord I never endeavoured it he said he did believe me then I told my Lord said I Mr. Dugdale is a dishonour to the Family upon this accompt because many times people come for money and he will not let them have it
his hearing complain That the King had deceived them a great while and that they would bear with him no longer he should deceive them no more My Lords Our third Witness was Mr. Turbervill who doth give you an account that he being first sent to Doway and intended to be entred there in one of the Societies he was sent by my Lord Powis and my Lady Powis and some of his Relations of that Religion for that purpose he did not like the Company he was not pleased with the Exercises of that Religion and that with much difficulty he escaped thence and came for England But finding he was not well look'd upon here nor well received by his Relations he went over to France That being at Paris he came into the company of the three Fathers I named before Father Sherborn Father Nelson and Father Turbervill the last whereof he tells you was his own Brother That by the means of these Priests he was brought acquainted with my Lord Stafford and doubtless they were able to make him intimately acquainted with my Lord. And it did prove so for he tells you after some time that in a lower Room of my Lords Lodging my Lord proposed to him the business of killing the King That he did not at all like it was very unwilling to undertake it but my Lord bid him consider of it and that he should give him his Answer at Diep having enjoyned him secrecy but my Lord after sent him word he would go by Calice and the Witness afterwards went into England and from thence into the French Army And this is the substance of what Turbervill deposeth And my Lords I think it will not be doubted by any man that will consider these three mens Testimonies but that here are two Witnesses if not more to prove my Lord Guilty of Treason But my Lord has been pleased against them to make several Objections some have been by Witnesses which he hath produced to incounter the Proofs that we have offered and some of them have been by Observations that he hath made upon what hath been said by our Witnesses and his I will keep to Order as much as I can not confound the Order and Method of his Defence The Witnesses he first brought were against Dugdale and of them his Lordship was pleased to begin with his Daughter the Lady Marchioness of Winchester and his Niece Mrs. Howard Your Lordships I presume are pleased to observe what they were called to They did testifie that being at Wakeman's Tryal they did hear Dugdale swear says my Lady Marchioness of Winchester that my Lord Stafford was to come down into Staffordshire in June or July and Mr. Dugdale was then to receive Orders from my Lord and he swore as she was pleased to say that there was a Consult in August at Tixall and my Lord Stafford was there present Mrs. Howard for I put them together was pleased to say that she was present at that Tryal and there Dugdale swore my Lord Stafford did come down in June or July and that my Lord was at the Consult in August My Lords I will not make Objections neither to the Religion of these Ladies nor to the Relation to my Lord though those be matters that are to be considered But that which I shall observe to your Lordships is this That they do not agree one with another For my Lady Winchester says Dugdale did swear that my Lord was to come down in June or July and Mrs. Howard says that he swore he did come down then Now there is a great difference betwixt swearing an intention that a man was to come down and swearing the very Act that he did come down at that time By which your Lordships may observe how hard a matter it is for Witnesses that are present at a Tryal especially at a Tryal which did not directly though it might in consequence concern another Person of their Relation to take notice exactly of things And truly my Lords these Ladies being of that Religion might have so much concern upon them for Sir George Wakeman the Popish Physician and in him for other their friends of that party that they might not have so much liberty of thought as to observe exactly all circumstances sworn to by the Witnesses and therefore it is no great matter if they are mistaken in them But I believe if any one do consult the Print though it be no Evidence nor offer'd as such he will find no such thing was at that time sworn for it is not so printed and those that took notes did not understand it so My Lords The next Witness my Lord is pleased to bring is his Servant Furnese and what is it that he testifieth He saith that he was with my Lord the whole time that Dugdale was in my Lords Chamber and he doth not remember that ever Dugdale was there but once and he doth not remember that ever my Lord bid him go out of the Room My Lords it is a very hard matter for a man to come thus in the Negative to remember how often Dugdale was there especially there being no more occasion to take notice of it then than here appears to be and that after so long a time And it is a very hard matter for a Servant to gain Credit by saying his Master never bid him go out of the Room in his life These things may be done or said and yet escape the memory of a Servant of more Age and of less inclination to favour his Master then this person appears to be of and to have Therefore I think there will be but a very small matter made of what he said no force at all in it and I believe your Lordships will give very little regard to it but rather believe those Witnesses that swear positively that they have seen him with my Lord and speak to a familiarity at that time between them This young man Furnese was my Lords Servant and of his Religion and it is considerable whether we have not reason to be afraid that more than ordinary Practice has been used to prepare Evidence on my Lords behalf which I shall have occasion to speak to when I come to the other Witnesses His next Witness my Lords was his Boy George Leigh who is Fifteen years of Age now and was Eight years old when he came to my Lord Seven years ago And he attests the same thing and to the same purpose with the other And I think I may leave him with the same Answer for we are nothing more concerned with him than we were with the other Only one thing I would observe to shew that his Memory was imperfect he doth not remember that Dugdale was with my Lord at all that day which my Lord himself doth acknowledge he was and the other Witness agrees So that there cannot be any great weight laid upon what he saith My Lords next Witness was Thomas Sawyer and he is one of my
to give some Reasons to your Lordships why those Laws that were against them should be repealed as well Protestant Dissenters as those of the Church of Rome and why they should have some kind of Toleration among whom you did permit those of the Romish Religion to appear too I forget their Names And I remember particularly one of the forts of them an Anabaptist I think did urge for a Reason that which is a great truth that they held Rebellion to be the Sin of Whitchcrast I believe it is as bad as any Sin can be My Lords that came to nothing at that time but my Lords I believe that after that all of all Religions had Meetings among themselves to endeavour to get that Toleration which they proposed humbly to your Lordships there I will never deny my Lords that my Opinion was and is that this Kingdom can never be happy till an Act of Parliament pass to this Effect it was my Opinion then and I did endeavour it all I could that the Dissenting Protestants might have a Comprehension and the other a Toleration I acknowledge it to be my Intention and I think it was no ill one for if that be a true Copy of the Commons Votes which is in Print there is some such thing designing there as a Comprehension and I was of Opinion that it were sufficient that such as were of the Church of Rome might by Act of Parliament serve God in their own Houses and privately in their own Way not in publick and that for it they should pay something to the King out of their Estates but truly not much That they should be severely punished if they or any of them did endeavour to persuade any Subject to their Opinion or did come to Court or enjoy any Office whatsoever though it were but that of a Scavenger but that they should pay their proportion to all chargeable Offices That I profess my Lords was my Opinion and I confess to your Lordships 't is so still I was in some hopes that it would have been done in that Sessions because I was afraid it was unlikely to be done at any time else I confess to your Lordships I was heartily and cordially against the Test because it hindred those just and honest things that were for the Good of the Kingdom My Lords there was the first or or the second Day brought into your Lordships House the Record of Mr. Coleman's Tryal and for the Letters in it I do my Lords declare to your Lordships I never read of one of them before but I have read them since they have been in Print And when I read them first cursorily over my Opinion was and is That Coleman's endavouring by Money out of France and keeping off the Parliament to get a Toleration was that which he could not justifie by Law how fat it was Criminal that I do not know I am not so skilled in the Law I think it was not justifiable but he hath paid for it severely since My Lords I do declare that ever since I had the Honour to fit among your Lordships which is now 40 Years for in the Year 1640. I was by His Majesties favour called up a Peer I have valued my self upon the Honour of sitting with you and I do declare when I have sat in this House when your Lordships have desired the King when it was hot weather and unseasonable to put off the Sitting of the Parliament I was never glad of it but sorry when they were prorogued but for a short time This I profess is true and I hope I am no Criminal in it for I do value the Parliaments Sitting to be the only means to keep this Kingdom quiet My Lords 'T is very true by Coleman's Letters and what I have seen in print since I do believe there have been some Consultations for a Toleration and if I had known as much then as I have since I have been in the Tower I had perhaps prevented many things for my Lords I hold England to be a great and an happy Body but it is as other great Bodies are it may be now as you know before it was over-grown or sick it was then and I pray God it be not now but I hold nothing can cure it but that old English Physician the King your Lordships and the Commons in Parliament assembled But if I had known any such Design as Coleman's Letters do hint I would not have continued in England My Lords For that damnable Opinion of King-killing if I were of any Church whatsoever and found that to be its Principle I would leave it My Lords this is as true as I can speak any thing in the world I beg your Lordships pardon for troubling you with my impertinencies and hope you pardon it to my weakness My Lords I do profess before Almighty God and before your Lordships my Judges I know no one tittle nor point of the Plot and if I did I hold my self bound to declare it For the present I shall say little more unless the Managers give me occasion if they will reply and make any Objections I desire I may answer them I know the great disadvantages I am under when these Gentlemen who are great Scholars and Learned Men reply upon me who have those great helps of Memory Parts and Understanding in the Law all which I want And therefore I hope your Lordships will dot conclude me upon what they or I have said but will be pleased to debate the matter among your selves and be as well my Counsel as my Judges My Lords when I offer to your Lordships matter of Law I did in no wise admit the matter of Fact Lord High Steward My Lord I cannot hear you Lord Stafford My Lords if your Lordships please that Paper may be read Lord High Steward Deliver your Paper in my Lords cannot hear Lord Stafford I cannot â—eny to your Lordships that what happened to me on Saturday night disturbed me very much Every day since I came â—â—ther there hath been such shouting and houting by a Company of barbarous Rabble as never was heard the like I believe but it was at a distance most of the time and so it did not much concern me But Saturday night it was so near and so great that really it hath disturbed me ever since it was great to day but at a distance if it were not thus I should not offer a Paper to be read I scarce know what I do or say considering the Circumstances I am in Lord High Steward Take my Lords Paper and read it Sir Thomas Lee. My Lords I desire you will please to consider whether this may not introduce a new Custom by reading of this Paper As to what my Lord is pleased to say I am sorry for the occasion that any disturbance should arise to my Lord from the Rabble or any one else I hope his Lordship believes we cannot help nor do we contribute to that
disturbance But we desire your Lordships to consider whether this practise of having things written down for the Clerk to read may not introduce a Custom which may in time grow inconvenient for future Example I see no great danger in the particular Instance before your Lordships now but it is dangerous in such Cases to do any thing that is new in this Court Lord High Steward All the matter is whether it be read by my Lord who cannot be heard or read by the Clerk Sir Thomas Lee. We only oppose it out of fear of making a President which may be of ill consequence Lord High Steward Read it my Lord and raise your voice for it concerns you to speak out Lord Stafford Reading out of his Paper My Lords when I offered Matter of Law to your Lordships on Saturday last I did in no wise admit the Matter of Fact to be true that was alledged against me and so I desire to be understood And I hope your Lordships will not lay the less weight upon the Testimony of my Witnesses because they are not sworn for the Law does not suffer them to be sworn which is no fault of mine nor ought not to turn to my Prejudice I must appeal to your Lordships Judgments in point of Fact how far the Kings Witnesses are to be believed against me considering the whole matter and my Counter-proof Next I submit to your Lordships Judgments this point That the Impeachment being founded upon the Common Law and the Statute of 25 th Edw. 3. and not upon the Statute of 13 th of this King two of the Witnesses Dugdale and Turbervill do only swear Treasonable words spoken by me and not my Overt Act for they swear only that I promised them Money and Rewards to kill the King Now I humbly pray your Lordships Judgment whether bare speaking of words be an Overt Act and Treason at the Common Law or upon that Statute and whether there be more than speaking of Words in a Consult or otherwise proved by Dugdale and Turbervill I appeal to you then the other Witness Oats is but a single Witness who speaks of the receiving of a Commission This is that I offer to your Lordships now for your Judgments and then I desire I may have your Opinion in other things Lord High Steward Is this all your Lordship hath to say Lord Stafford For the present my Lords Lord High Steward You must say all you have to say now Lord Stafford Is it your Lordships pleasure to hear Counsel to nothing at all I did likwise alledge to your Lordships th' other day that People that swear for Money are not competent credible Witnesses how far that was proved or I may prove by my Counsel I submit to your Lordships Lord High Stewared Look you my Lord you have so far received already the pleasure of the House You have raised several Questions of Law whether every Overt Act require two Witnesses to prove it You have had the Opinion of the Judges and there is no more to be said in it As to that whether Impeachments continue from Parliament to Parliament and the other thing whether Proceedings may be upon an Impeachment without an Indictment these are matters of the Course and Constitutions of Parliaments my Lords will consider of them by themselves and will permit no Counsel to argue them For the other Point That words are no Overt Act that rests for their Opinion in another Case when it shall come for they have now no such Case before them Lord Stafford Thumbly conceive there is Lord High Steward There is a great difference between bare words being an Overt Act and perswasion by Promises of Money and Rewards to kill the King which is a very great Overt Act. Lord Stafford Is it possible to do an Act by Words If it be so I never heard it before Lord High Steward Otherwise men may promise Rewards to â—0 several persons to kill the King and then say 't is all but Words Lord Stafford I say it not but I humbly conceive the Law says it Lord High Steward What say you Gentlemen of the House of Commons Lord Stafford My Lords I have something to say which I desire to speak first My Lords I hope I have cleared to your Lordships that all the Witnesses have swore false against me and this I have made out by Proofs I say not much to that My Lord was searching for his Papers Truly my Lords I am confounded with the Noise and other Circumstances but my Lords I shall if your Lordships please to give me leave humbly represent my Case to you how I take it to be in matter of Fact as to my own Condition not any thing but how I am now before your Lordships I was my Lords committed by my Lord Chief Justices Warrant on the 20. or 21. of October 78. Friday the 25. of October I was brought to your Lordships Bar I was Impeached I do not remember the day my Lords the beginning of December in one Parliament Articles exhibited against me in another Parliament I was brought upon these Articles exhibited and being called to your Lordships Bar the Articles were read to me and I gave in my Answer that was sometime in May 79. and in the end of May the 27. if I mistake not if I do I desire it may be rectified by your Books I with the other Lords were brought to this place in order to our Trial. We staid some time there and then were remanded by your Order to the Tower where I continued till November twelve month after without having heard any thing concerning it so that I was first Impeached in one Parliament Articles brought against me and pleaded to in a second and now brought to my Trial in a third and what your Lordships will say upon this I submit to you and whether these be Proceedings according to Law your Lordships will judge My Lords I humbly conceive that Magna Charta says That Justice shall be denied nor delayed to no man whether it hath not been delayed to me let your Lordships judge If you say the Prorogation of the Parliament is the cause of that delay I hope your Lordships will give me leave to say That from the 5. of December to the 30. when the first Parliament was Prorogued or during the Session of the other Parliament there was time enough sure wherein I might have been brought to my Trial and if these proceedings be lawful and just there is no man living but may be kept off from time to time till some Accidents happen that their ends may be gained I leave it to your judgment whether it may be only my Case now or of some of your Lordships in future Ages to be accused of things that you never heard of before and not brought to justifie your selves but kept in Prison My Lords There is a Statute I have forgot where it is but such a one I have read that though