told him no it was not as yet So I asked Mr. Dugdale because he had promised to give Mr. Colledge a Pistol what obligation there was betwixt Mr. Colledge and him that he should give him a Pistol to which he answered that Mr. Colledge had been serviceable to him in lending him a pair of Pistols to ride withal sometimes So he gave him a Pistol to satisfie him for the wearing of his Pistols now and then I thought said I Mr. Colledge did impose upon your good nature too much not but that I believe Mr. Colledge is a very honest man and stands up for the good of the King and the Government Yes said Mr. Dugdale I believe he does and I know nothing to the contrary Mr. Att. Gen. When was this Mr. Yates A little after the Parliament sat at Oxford for I never knew Mr. Colledge before Mr. Dugdale set me a work for him Coll. Mr. Yates pray was there nothing in the Coffee-House about one that he asked to go with him when he said he knew nothing against me Mr. Yates I heard one say Mr. Ser. jeff. You must speak your own knowledge you must not tell a tale of a Tub of what you heard one say Yates I heard it affirmed Mr. Ser jeff. But by whom Yates By a person in the Coffee-House Ser. jeff. Who was that person Yates By one of the Servants of the House L. c. j. That is no Evidence at all if you know any thing of your own knowledge speak it Ser. jeff. Is he here Yates No I think not Mr. ju jones How long do you think we must sit here to hear other peoples stories L. c. j. If you know any thing of your own knowledge I say speak it Mr. Att. Gen. Pray let me ask you that question again When was this that he said he believed he was an honest man Yates It was about three weeks after the Parliament sat at Oxford Coll. Then he does me wrong now for if I were an honest man then it cannot be true that he says of me L. c. j. Who do you call next Colledge Pray my Lord who hath been sworn against me L. c. j. There is Stephen Dugdale John Smith Bryan Haynes Edward Turbervile Sir William Jennings and Mr. Masters Colledge Call Mr. Clayton My Lord at his House it was I lay in Oxford and that Dugdale says I spake some of the Treasonable words Pray Sir do you know what time I came to Oxford Mr. Clayton I remember it very well it was at the time the Parliament sat at Oxford about two or three days after it began Coll. Pray what Arms did I bring to your House Sir Mr. Clayton As to the matter of Arms ther was no other but a Sword and a pair of Pistols a pair of Pistols in his Holsters and his Sword by his side Mr. Att. Gen. Was there no Silk Armor Mr. Clayton I saw none if it please you such a thing might be Coll. My Lord I continued at his House from my coming in to my going out and that was till after the Parliament was Dissolved and I came after they were sat But heark you Mr. Clayton Mr. Dugdale says he was with me at your House Did you ever see him there Mr. Clayton I remember I have seen Dugdale at my House but never in your company Colledge Did you sell any mum Mr. Clayt No I never did sell any in my life Colledge Because he says we had mum there Mr. Clayton I never saw him there with you nor changed any word with him as I know of L. c. j. Was he never in the company of Colledge at your house Mr. Clayton Not that I saw Mr. just jones You don't know all the companies that come into your House Coll. My Lord I am told there are some that came from the Town where I was born that know me and have known me this 24 or 25 years together if you think that material for me to prove whether I am a Protestant or no. Lo. ch just If you will make out that you may But 't is your Loyalty that is in question If you will produce any that can make it appear that you use to honour the King in your discourse or so that is something Coll. If I am a Protestant then the design is plain these men swear to make a Protestant Plot and turn the Plot off the Papists Mr. Serj. jeff. What Church do you frequent in London to hear Divine Service Colledge I have received the Sacrament several times Sir George Mr. Serj. jeff. When were you last at the publick Church Colledge I hope I may be a Protestant if I have not gone thither but however I do use to go to Church Lo. ch just Well call whom you will Colledge Is Thomas Deacon there Mr. Deacon Yes Coll. He lives my Lord in the Parish where I was born If you please Mr. Deacon to give my Lord an account what you know of me from my childhood Mr. Deacon I have known Mr. Colledge ever since he was a youth he was born in the Town where I live L. ch Just Where is that Mr. Deacon At Watford a Town in Hertfordshire There he lived till he was a man and married a Neighbours Daughter of mine and lived there while he had two children I never knew but that he was a very honest man frequented and kept to the Church of England all along and paid every man his own Mr. Att. Gen. How long is it ago since he left that place Mr. Deacon I can't directly tell how long it is truely but I think 't is eighteen years since you left Watford Coll. 'T is fourteen years ago Mr. just jones You say fourteen and they say eighteen Mr. Deacon I say I cannot exactly tell Coll. But Mr. Deacon I have been in your Country lately Mr. Deacon He used to come there once or twice a year generally to see his friends I have heard him delare himself against the Popish Church always very much L. c. j. Did you never hear him talk against the Government Mr. Deacon No never in my life Mr. Ser. Jeff. Nor against the King Mr. Deacon Nor against the King Mr. just jones Was he in your Country the last Easter Mr. Deacon I think it was about Easter he was there Mr. just jones Was he at Church there then and received the Sacrament Mr. Deacon I know not whether he was there of the Lords-day or no He did quarter at another Town at Bushy where he has a Brother-in-law L. c. j. Well call another Coll. Mr. Whitaker L. c. j. What is your Christian Name Mr. Whitaker William L. ch just What do you ask of him Coll. Whether he knows me and my Education Mr. Whitaker Sir I have known him this six and twenty years I knew his Parents I know his mother she lives now at Watford I have known his behaviour to be very civil and good a very good Church-man he was when he lived
knowledge and so it is nothing for he is not produced in this cause Coll. Pray my Lord give me leave to call Mr. Ivy. Mr. Ser. Jeff. Do if you will He stood up Coll. VVhat was that you heard Turbervile say of me or of any Presbyterian Plot Ivy. I never heard him say any thing concerning a Presbyterian Plot in my life Colledge Did not you tell Zeal of such a thing Ivy. No I never did Coll. Heark you Mr. Ivy you have sworn against me have you not Ivy. What I have sworn against you or against any other person is true Coll. VVhat have you sworn against me Ivy. I am not bound to answer you Coll. Did not you call me out with Macnamarra and Haynes to the Hercules-Pillars L. c. j. Look you Mr. Colledge I will tell you something for Law and to set you right whatsoever Witnesses you call you call them as Witnesses to testifie the truth for you and if you ask them any questions you must take what they have said as truth therefore you must not think to ask him any question and afterwards call another Witness to disprove your own Witness Coll. I ask him was he the first time with us when I was called out of the Coffee-house to hear Haynes's Discovery L. c. j. Let him answer you if he will but you must not afterwards go to disprove him Coll. If he were sworn against me I would not ask him any questions for he is among them Lo. Ch. Just Ask him what you will Coll. I desire not if he have sworn against me for truly I can't expect a good Answer from him but he was by when Haynes made his discovery L. c. j. Will you ask him any questions Coll. I ask whether he hath given any Evidence against me any where Ivy. I am not bound to answer you L. c. j. Tell him if you have Ivy. Yes my Lord I have Colledge Then I think he is no good Witness for me when he hath sworn against me Ivy. I have sworn against him and others You know that you and I have had a great many Intrigues about this business in hand and how we dealt with Mr. Haynes L. c. j. Look you he does not call you for a Witness for him you can testifie nothing and so you must be quiet Coll. Call Mr. Lewes Who appeared L. c. j. What is your Christian Name Mr. Lewes William Coll. Pray Mr. Lewes what do you know about Turbervile Mr. Lewes I know nothing at all I assure you of him that is ill Colledge Do you know any thing concerning any of the Evidence that hath been given here Mr. Lewes If I knew any thing relating to you I would declare it but I know something of Mr. Ivy it has no relation to you as I conceive but against my Lord of Shaftsbury Lo. c. j. You would call Ivy for a Witness and now you call one against him and that I told you you must not do but Ivy is not at all in this case Coll. Do you know any thing of the rest of them Haynes or Smith or Dugdale Mr. Lewes No more than what Mr. Zeal told me was told him Coll. Do you know any thing of a Presbyterian Plot Mr. Lewes If the Court please to hear me I will tell my knowledge of that but I know nothing that affects him in the least only that which concerns my Lord of Shaftsbury L. ch just That is nothing to the purpose call another Mr. Lewes There was not to my knowledge a word mentioned of your Name I will do you all the justice I can if I knew any thing concerning you I would be sure to relate it Coll. I cannot say who can or who cannot I am a stranger to all of it Lo. ch Just Well call your next Witness Coll. My Lord There was a Petition presented to the Common Council of London wherein they set out that they were tamper'd withal about a Plot against the Protestants Lo. c. j. A Petition from whom Coll. I cannot tell from whom from some of these witnesses L. c. j. Who preferred and signed it Coll. Mr. Turbervile was one Pray call Dr. Oates L. c. j. The Prisoner calls upon you Mr. Oates What would you ask him Mr. Colledge Coll. VVhere is the Petition to the Common Council Doctor Dr. Oates I have it here in my hand Lo. ch just By whom was it presented Dr. Oates It was given by Mr. Turbervile and Mr. Macnamarra to Mr. VVilmoe Lo. ch just Was you by when it was delivered Dr. Oates Mr. VVilmore did deliver it to me before he was apprehended for being to come down as a Witness he was taken up and committed to prison Lo. ch just Whose hands are to it Dr. Oates I know Mr. Turbervile's hand he will not disown it Clerk Reads It is subscribed Edward Turbervile John Macnamarra L. c. j. Look you Mr. Colledge what word is there in all this Petition that is a contradiction to what they have said now Colledge I did not hear it my Lord. Lo. ch just They say they are constant Witnesses for the King against the Papists and they have been tempted to unsay what they have said How does that contradict what they say now Coll. I suppose they say they have been tempted to turn the Plot upon other people and to make a Plot upon the Protestants L. c. j. They have been tempted they say by the Papists to unsay what they have said but the Jury have heard it read and will give it its due weight Will you ask Mr. Oates any questions Colledge What do you know of Mr. Turbervile Dr. Oates As to Turbervile my Lord a little before the Witnesses were sworn at the Old-Bailey I met with Mr. Tubervile I was in a Coach but seeing Mr. Turbervile I stept out of the Coach and spoke with him for hearing that he was a Witness I did ask him whether he was a Witness or no against Colledge Mr. Turbervile said He would break any one's Head that should say so against him for he neither was a Witness nor could give any Evidence against him So after he came from Oxon. I met with Mr. Turbervile again and hearing he had been there I asked him if he had sworn any thing against Colledge He said yes he had been sworn before the Grand Jury Said I did not you tell me so and so Why said he the Protestant Citizens have deserted us and God dam him he would not starve Lo. c. j. Would he say so to you Dr. Oates Yes my Lord He said those very words Mr. Serj. jeff. 'T is Mr. Oates saying 't is Mr. Turbervile's Oath Dr. Oates Several times he did repeat it but when I asked him what he had sworn He said I am not bound to satisfie peoples curiosities L. c. j. What say you to it Mr. Turbervile Mr. Turbervile My Lord the first part of the Doctor 's discourse in part is true I met him just at my Lodgings
nor weighing the Duty of thy Allegiance but being moved and seduced by the Instigation of the Devil the cordial Love and true due and natural obedience which true and faithful Subjects of our said Sovereign Lord the King towards him our said Sovereign Lord the King should and of right ought to bear wholly withdrawing and machinating and with all thy strength intending the Peace and common tranquillity of our said Sovereign Lord the King of this Kingdom of England to disturb and Sedition and Rebellion and War against our Sovereign Lord the King within this Kingdom of England to move stir up and procure and the cordial Love and true and due Obedience which true and faithful Subjects of our said Sovereign Lord the King towards him our said Sovereign Lord the King should and of right ought to bear wholly to withdraw put out and extinguish and him our said Sovereign Lord the King to Death and final Destruction to bring and put the tenth day of March in the Three and Thirtieth year of the Reign of our Sovereign Lord Charles the Second by the Grace of God of England Scotland France and Ireland King Defender of the Faith c. at Oxford in the County of Oxford Falsly Maliciously Subtilly and Traiterously did Purpose Compass Imagine and Intend Sedition and Rebellion within this Kingdom of England to move stir up and procure and a miserable Slaughter among the Subjects of our said Sovereign Lord the King to procure and cause and our said Sovereign Lord the King from his Regal State Title Power and Government of his Kingdom of England to deprive depose cast down and disinherit and him our said Sovereign Lord the King to Death and final Destruction to bring and put and the Government of the said Kingdom at thy will and pleasure to change and alter and the State of all this Kingdom of England in all its parts well Instituted and Ordained wholly to Subvert and Destroy and War against our said Sovereign Lord the King within this Kingdom of England to levy and thy said most Wicked Treasons and Trayterous Imaginations and Purposes aforesaid to fulfil and perfect thou the said Stephen Colledge the said tenth day of March in the Three and Thirtieth year of the Reign of our said Sovereign Lord the King with force and Arms c. at Oxford aforesaid in the County of Oxford aforesaid Falsly Maliciously Subtilly Advisedly Devilishly and Trayterously did prepare Arms and Warlike offensive Habiliments to wage War against our said Sovereign Lord the King And thy self in warlike manner for the purposes aforesaid then and there Falsly Maliciously Subtilly Advisedly Devilishly and Traiterously didst Arm and one Edward Turbervill and other Subjects of our said Sovereign Lord the King to Arm themselves to perfect thy Traiterous purposes aforesaid then and there Advisedly Maliciously and Trayterously didst incite and advise And further then and there Falsly Maliciously Subtilly Advisedly Devilishly and Trayterously didst say and declare That it was purposed and designed to seize the Person of our said Sovereign Lord the King at Oxford aforesaid in the County of Oxford aforesaid And that thou the said Stephen Colledge in prosecution of thy trayterous purpose aforesaid wouldst be one of them who should seize our said Sovereign Lord the King at Oxford aforesaid in the County aforesaid And that thou the said Stephen Colledge thy said most wicked Treasons and trayterous Imaginations Compassings and Purposes aforesaid the sooner to fulfil and perfect and discords between our said Sovereign Lord the King and his People to move cause and procure then and divers times and days as well before as after at Oxford aforesaid in the County of Oxford aforesaid in the presence and hearing of divers Liege Subjects of our said Sovereign Lord the King then and there being present Falsly Maliciously Subtilly Advisedly Devilishly and Traiterously didst say and declare That nothing of good was to be expected from our said Sovereign Lord the King and that our said Sovereign Lord the King did mind nothing but Beastliness and the destruction of his People And that our said Sovereign Lord the King did endeavour to establish Arbitrary Government and Popery against the Duty of thy Allegiance against the Peace of our Sovereign Lord the King his Crown and Dignity and against the Form of the Statutes in this Case made and provided How sayest thou Stephen Colledge Art thou Guilty of this High-Treason whereof thou standest Indicted and hast been now Arraigned or not Guilty Colledge My Lord I do desire if it please your Lordship to be heard a few words L. Ch. Just Look you Mr. Colledge the matter that hath been here read unto you is a plain matter and it hath been read to you in English that you may understand it 'T is an Indictment of High Treason now you must know that no Plea can be received to it but either Guilty or not Guilty as to the Fact if you can assign any matter in Law do it Colledge Will you please to spare me that I may be heard a few words I have been kept close Prisoner in the Tower ever since I was taken I was all along unacquainted with what was charged upon me I knew not what was sworn against me nor the persons that did swear it against me and therefore I am wholly ignorant of the matter I do humbly desire I may have a Copy of the Indictment and a Copy of the Jury that is to pass upon me and that I may have Council assigned me to advise me whether I have not something in Law pleadable in Bar of this Indictment Lo. Ch. Just These are the things you ask You would have a Copy of the Indictment you would have Council assigned to you to advise you in matter of Law and a Copy of the Jury Colledge One word more my Lord I desire to know upon what Statute I am Indicted Lo. Ch. Just I will tell you for that Is it not contra formam Statut. with an abbreviation Cl. of Cr. Yes Lo. Ch. Just That refers to all manner of Statutes that have any relation to the thing in the Indictment that is High-Treason For it may be meant contra formam Statut. which are all the several Statutes that are in force concerning High-Treason Now for those things that you demand you cannot have them by Law No man can have a Copy of the Indictment by Law for Councel you cannot have it unless matter of Law arises and that must be propounded by you and then if it be a matter debatable the Court will assign you Councel but it must be upon a matter fit to be argued for I must tell you a defence in Case of High-Treason ought not to be made by Artificial Cavils but by plain Fact If you purpose any matter of Law the Court will consider of it and assign you Councel if it be reasonable For a copy of the Jury that you can't have neither for there is no such thing
he may observe the same rule he desired about our Witnesses that he may call but one at a time Colledge Yes yes I will call them one by one L. c. j. Are not your Witnesses together send to them Colledge My Lord I don't know I have not seen one since I come This is not the first time my Lord the Papists have designed to take away my life though it is the first time they go to take it away by a Law L. c. j. I know not of one Papist that is a Witness against you Colledge There is never a man of them except Sir William Jennings but what was a Papists Mr. Att. Gen. What say you to Mr. Masters Colledge Mr. Masters says nothing material it was only a jocose discourse Mr. Serj. jeff. It was very pleasant discourse upon my word you were as merry as when you were singing of the Rary Shew Mr. just jones What do you make mirth of the blackest Tragedy that ever was that horrid Rebellion and the Murther of the late King Colledge I never justified that Parliament in any such thing that they did contrary to Law Mr. just jones He swears it Mr. Att. Gen. Hickman does not appear call another Coll. Call William Shewin who appeared L. c. j. Look you here Friend you are not to be sworn but when you speak in a Court of Justice and in a course of Justice you must speak as in the presence of God and only speak what is true Coll. I would not have any body speak any thing for me but what is truth L. c. j. Now ask him what you will Colledge I don't know the Gentleman But pray Sir will you tell what you know of these Witnesses Mr. Shewin Name any of them that I know pray Sir and I 'll tell you Colledge Do you know Bryan Haynes Mr. Shewin I know there is such a man but I have nothing to say to him Colledge Do you know Turbervile Mr. Shewin Yes Colledge Pray tell what you know of him Mr. Shewin My Lord I was in Turbervile's company on Thursday night last at the Golden Posts at Charing-Cross and there I heard him say that if I were at Oxford I should hear strange things against Colledge and he would lay ten to one that Mr. Bethel and Mr. Wilmore should be hanged at Christmass and he would lead him by the Gold-chain along Fleetstreet and down with his Breeches in the middle of the Coffee-House with a Band about his neck and a Cloak Mr. Serj. jefferies Did he say all these things against Mr. Sheriff Bethel I assure you he is a bold man Coll. What do you know of Mr. Smith Mr. Shewin I know him by sight but I have nothing in particular to say concerning him I have something to say to Macnamarra Sir if he were here Colledge Do you know any thing of this conspiracy in general Mr. Jones What of your conspiracy Mr. Shewin I know that they did lay who should be Hang'd at Candlemass who at Christmass and who at several other times Lo. ch just What did you hear Turbervile say Mr. Shewin Those words I spake before about Sheriff Bethel and about the Amsterdam Coffee-House Colledge Did they say what time I should be Hang'd for the Discourse ' rose about me Mr. Shewin One told me that there was one that did design to be returned upon this Jury that was resolved to hang him right or wrong Mr. High Sher. My Lord I did hear there was such a one and I left him out of the Jury L. ch just For Mr. Sheriffs Honour we must take notice of what he hath said He says he heare of a man that spoke something of that nature and therefore he left him out of the Jury Coll. Now 't is possible these Witnesses were at the same sport Mr. Shewin Was Mr. Peacock Mrs. Fitz Harris Maids Father or she here either of them Witnesses against you Mr. Serj. Jeff. No they were not Sir Coll. They did swear against me at the finding of the Bill Mr. Ser. Jeff. We have only called these Witnesses if you can say any thing against them do Coll. Call Henry Hickman who appeared Mr. Serj. Holloway Where do you live Sir Mr. Hickman At Holborn-Bridge Mr. Att. Gen. What Trade are you Mr. Hickman A Cabinet-maker L. ch Just What do you ask him Coll. Do you know Haynes Hickman Yes very well because he used to come to my House to a Popish Widow that was a Lodger in my House where I live now and this person was a Prisoner at Haynes's when he was a Prisoner in the Fleet. I always had a suspicion he was a Priest not that I could accuse him really of any thing but he several times using to come to my House I thought so of him and discoursing with my Landlady Lo. ch just Your Tenant you mean Mr. Hickman Yes my Tenant I asked her what this Fellow was said she he is a very dangerous Fellow though he is a Papist and I am one my self yet he is a dangerous person and he does not much care what he swears against any one Mr. just jones This your Tenant told you what do you know your self Mr. Hickman Another time he came to speak with my Tenant Mrs. Scot who is now gone into Ireland when he came to the House he asked me is Mrs. Scot within Yes said I Mr. Haynes she is above and up he goes and there they locked the door and plucked out the Key so I slipt off my Shooes for I thought there might be more danger from such people than I could discover any other way So I went up stairs and stood at the door and hearkened hearing my Landlady talk something to him he wraps out a great Oath God dam me said he I care not what I swear nor who I swear against for 't is my Trade to get money by swearing Whereupon my Lord I came down as fast as I could and a little after I saw him go out and as soon as my Landlady came down said I Mrs. Scot I desire you would provide your self as soon as you can I would be civil to you and I would not put you to a non-pluss because your Goods by the Law will be seized for not departing according to the Kings Proclamation So a while ago since this business of Haynes's swearing against my Lord of Shaftsbury I bethought my self of some other businesses I had heard To find out the Knavery I went to the Fleet where he hath a very ill character as well amongst the Papists as the Protestants Whereupon I asked one Fellow that was a kind of a Porter if he knew any thing of him Said he Go you to such an one Mr. Ser. Jeff. We must not permit this for example sake to tell what others said Lo. Ch. Just Nothing is Evidence but what you know of your own knowledge you must not tell what others said Hickman This I do say I heard him say and there are
and yet you were suffered to go on Mr. Sol. Gen. He tells you of a discourse as he came from the Coffee-House to go to a Dinner whither he was invited by Alderman Wilcox and the discourse was that the King was as great a Papist as the Duke and much more to that purpose vilifying the King The Alderman Wilcox was a man that gave money to buy Arms to bring the King to submission He objects against this and says 't is impossible such a discourse should be and that all this should be talked in so little a time as in passing from the Coffee-House to the Crown Tavern without Temple-Bar Coll. Pray remember whose company it was proved I went in Mr. Solicitor Mr. Sol. Gen. But Gentlemen when you consider how busie a man he was and how ready at talking of Treason you will not think but that this man might talk much more than this but this I mention to do him right it being one of the Arguments he used and to give an answer to it tho' when you consider it I believe you will think it not to need an Answer But I would do him all the right I can and now you have heard it you will consider the weight of it Gentlemen he tells you of another discourse afterwards that does relate to his being here at Oxon. he tells you he had Arms in his House and was ready upon all occasions and he shew'd Mr. Smith his Arms and told him these were the things that were to destroy Rowley's Guards as he said which by the Evidence is made to appear he meant the King by that name his Arms he said were for that purpose That he would go down to Oxon. and there he expected some sport I know not what sport he thinks there is in Rebellion you see what principles he is of that does maintain and justifie the greatest and horrid'st Rebellion that ever was in England and says they did nothing but what they had good cause for He tells Smith that he thought the King would seize upon some Members and with that expectation he came down but he was as ready as the King and would be one in the securing of him if he medled with any of the Members This proof Mr. Smith made and that after the Parliament was dissolved he said that the King ran away and was very much afraid This is proved by Smith likewise and this Colledge did declare after he came to Town Smith proves further that he did wonder the King did not consider how easily his Fathers Head was brought to the Block and for Mr. Colledges part he did declare that he did believe this King would be served so shortly And this does confirm what his other Witnesses have spoken of his words at Oxon. Thus then there are three Witnesses tho' two are enough to convict a man if they be positive to the Treason Mr. Haynes is the 4th Witness and he is as full as any of them I do but repeat it in short you have had it so often canvassed by Colledge that I believe you will easily remember it He did advise Haynes that he should not value the King at all for the King should be called to account for all his Actions he said he would seize the King and bring him to the Block as they did his Father with an undecent expression of that blessed King not fit to be repeated And he said they did intend when they had cut off him never any more of his Race should raign this it was Haynes says tho' there are other matters I would take notice of one thing more and I need not but mention it you will remember it and that is about the Libel of Fitzharris Haynes tells you upon discourse of that Libel he said that every word of it was true as sure as God is in Heaven Now that was a Libel made by a Papist an Irish Papist who hath been tryed convicted and executed for it and the horrid'st Libel it was that ever was Writ And this is the Libel which this Gentleman who is so very conversant in Libels and Books of that sort avers to be as true as God is in Heaven This is the substance Gentlemen of that proof which hath been made to you we have other circumstances to prove that as he came down with that intent to seize the King and as he expected what he calls some sport so he did endeavour to begin the sport he did quarrel in the Lobby of the House of Lords with Fitzgerald some blows passed and Sir William Jennings telling him his Nose bled he did declare I have lost the first Blood in the Cause but it will not be long before there be more lost Thus after he had come down he endeavoured to begin a commotion for from little matters great things do sometimes arise and when all men were possest with an expectation such as he himself did declare he and others came down with an expectation that the Parliament should be attacked a little matter might have begun such a commotion which no man knows what end it would have had Gentlemen this hath been our proof Now the Objection made to this proof by Mr. Colledge is That this is a Popish design to raise a new Plot and cast it upon the Protestants and that these Witnesses are now to deny all the Evidence they have given of the Popish Plot and throw all upon the Protestants This is that he would persuade you to believe but which I think when you do consider a little of it it will be impossible for you in the least to have such a thought For what are the Evidence that have proved this who are they men of credit that have been Evidences against the Popish Plotters and against men that have suffered for that Plot men that still stand to the Evidence they have given and affirm it every word to be true and one of the very men that he brought says that they still stand to it for Turbervile who was one of the Witnesses against my Lord Stafford was tempted by some persons to deny the Evidence he had given against the Papists but his answer was no I can never depart from it I have a Soul to save that was true which I said I cannot deny it If then the Witnesses which he would have you believe to be guilty of denying the Popish Plot do confirm what they have said as to that discovery that objection is taken off and they do stand still to it that every part of it was true and aver the same thing and yet forsooth these men are going about to stifle this Plot. Gentlemen these are the men the whole nation have given credit to the Parliament having impeached my Lord Stafford upon the credit of them for it was upon the credit of Dugdale and Turbervile that they impeached him for there was not two witnesses till Turbervile came in and made a second and upon their