THE CASE OF Tho. Dangerfield WITH Some Remarkable Passages that happened At the TRYALS of ELIZABETH CELLIER the Popish Midwife AND The Earl of CASTLEMAIN At the Kings-Bench-Bar at Westminster BEFORE Sir WILL. SCROGGS Kt Lord Chief Justice c. In the Month of June 1680. TOGETHER WITH 1. Divers Informations never yet publisht 2. John Gadbury his Testimony with all its Evasions 3. Some Points of Law insisted upon by the King Prisoners Counsel and the Chief Justice his Opinion given therein 4. The Manner and Occasion of Dangerfield's Commitment to Prison and also of his being discharged again AND 5. Some Animadversions upon the L. C. J. words Written by the hand of an Indifferent Person London Printed for the Author 1680. The CASE c. HE that goes about to justifie an ill Act of his own shall not onely loose his end but heighten and add to the former dâ—sgraces of his Life And therefore it would be but a vain Attempt sor any person of ordinary prudence and common reason to endeavour such a thing But when a man has done an Act applauded by the approbation of many sober persons and suffers only the Reproaches of a few and most of those his Enemies it is but the dictate of self-preservation to remove the weight that oppresseth him I have made my self the publick Discourse and in some measure the publick expectation both of Town and Country and began to do those things for which His Majesty was most graciously pleased to deem me worthy his never-to-be-forgotten Favour for this reason I cannot think my self safe from the ill opinion even of the best of my Friends should I by a neglectful and careless silence submit my self to be overborn by those Violences and Disgraces that have been put upon me in the pursuit of my gratitude for the greatest obligation that could be received from a most benign and Royal Bounty Therefore for the satisfaction of the World and to vindicate my self without any thoughts of prejudice or revenge I hold it but an Act of common Justice to my Friends and my self to make a faithful and render a true Account of the most remarkable passages in Fact that concerned the Tryal of Mrs Cellier against whom I thought I was to have been a Witness and had refreshed and recollected my thoughts to that purpose In the next place I shall add some few Observations upon the Objections made against me and my Testimony and then leave it to all unbiassed persons to judge of my intended both Loyalty and Integrity therein The Charge itself I brought against Mrs Cellier was of a high nature and form'd into an Indictment from the Relation which follows given in by my self that had been the Chief Actor in the whole concern by her means About the latter end of March in the year 1678. Mrs Cellier came to me then a Prisoner in Newgate that being the first time I ever saw her from which place in about a Months time she obtained my discharge I was no sooner out from thence but I was Arrested and carried to the Counter whither Mrs Cellier sent her servant who told me that if I could forthwith obtain my Liberty her Mistress would purchase it at any rate for that there was business ordered me to undertake the Tuesday following and if I could not get out before that day she could not tell if ever I should be freed by her or not Thereupon I removed my self to the Kings-Bench by Mrs Celliers Assistance who after I had been there about two days came to me and giving me some Money for the present told me I should have a weekly Allowance for my immediate Expences but that I should not long continue there At the same time she added further that I might do as much service there as if I were forth by observing one Stroud a Prisoner there who as she said knew much of the Life and Conversation of Mr. Bedlow and withal commended me to the Advice of two Priests then Prisoners also there which I was to take for the more secure management of that business At the same time likewise Mrs Celliers ordered me to write to one Blazedale an Apothecary for such Ingredients as I should have occasion for to lay the said Stroud in a Trance whereby I might the better accomplish the Defign which was of getting some Papers in his Custody which were reported to concern Mr. Bedlow in his Evidence Some time after as well by order from Mrs Cellier as others I was directed to Compound and discharge my Debts in pursuance whereof I was furnished with Money which not being sufficient to procure my Liberty I prevailed with a Waiter to go with me to Mrs Celliers House and by her Instructions left at home I went from thence to Powis House where I found her and where I received as much more as quite Discharged me so that in four hours after she brought me into the presence of the Lady Powis who together with her self returned me thanks for my diligence in that business of Mr. Stroud Mrs Cellier was also present when the Lady Powis sent me to Peterly with a Pacquet and was the person the Lady intrusted to make up the Pacquet Mrs Cellier was also present when I returned from Peterly and delivered the Pacquet which I brougbt from thence to the Lady Powis she was likewise by when the Lady read a Letter openly to this effect which I brought from the Priest Mr. Jeane in the above-mentioned Pacquet Good store of Pamphlets must be wrote and spread abroad persons must be imployed to go to Coffee-houses and rail against the Presbyterians and if they meet with any who offer to contend matters of Treason may be ealy laid to their Charge and so have them secured But there must be many persons imployed in these matters and it will be best not to let them know one another nor any one singly to know more than his part Some short time after there was a settlement made for me among the Lords in the Tower in consideration of my Expences and amongst the rest 't was ordered Mrs Cellier should have Ten shillings a week for my Dyet which was constantly paid her Mrs Cellier was the person also who disbnrsed Money to get Lane a Confederate against Doctor Oates out of Prison the Charges of which amounted to about Twenty pound He was also brought to Powis-house and there altered his name as well by the order of Mrs Cellier as others and she was allowed ten shillings a week for his Dyet also Mrs Cellier was the person that first imployed me to go to Coffee-houses and told me it was by order of the Lords in the Tower that I should disperse Pamphlets and raise Discourses to this effect That Sir Edmondbury Godfrey was Murdered by the E. of S's order who joyned with the Presbyterians to overthrow the Catholicks Mrs Cellier imployed persons to write Copies of the Letters and Lists of the Names
that came from Nevil a Prisoner in the Kings-Bench and sometimes she and I put our helping hands and both wrote which Letters were to the same effect with those that were taken in Colonel Mansels Chamber and were all by some means or other to be Conveyed into the Houses of all the most considerable Presbyterians for under that notion all persons were Comprized which were not for promoting the Catholick Interest And this Mrs Cellier declared to me at Powis house which was our general Rendezvous for near two Months Mrs Cellier was present at another time when the Lady Powis read a Letter which came from Brussels the effect whereof was thus If you had taken this course sooner much Blood might have been saved but I doubt 't is now too late and fear that the St. Omers Testimonies having been so baffled has much impaired our endeavours yet to my power I will assist and do advise you to go on Thomas Holder About the latter end of July Mrs Cellier remov'd from Powis-house to her own Habitation whither I also went in a short time some while after having been rebuked by the Lord Castlemain for refusing the matter proposed to me in the Tower no less than to Kill His most Sacred Majesty I came home and told Mrs Cellier that the Lord C. was displeased with me Oh said she 't is his Lordships Custom to fall out one hour and be friends the next and then advised me to go to Confession and receive the Sacrament of Father Sharp at Wild-house which I did and there received the same rebuke from the said Father for refusing the said Proposal in the Tower At another time Mrs Cellier was present in her own House when the Lady Powis laught at me and said Well well Mr. Willoughby by which Name I then went will be honest and do us no hurt I am sure After that having been with Mr. Gadbury and from him received another rebuke for refusing that Proposal to Kill the King I returned home and told Mrs Cellier of it who replyed That Mr. Gadbury was in his heart a very good Catholique Not long after I met the Lady P. at Mrs Celliers House where in the hearing of Mrs Cellier she told me I must go on with some Intrigue against the Duke came from Flanders to make him believe the Presbyterians were Plotting against the KING and then there was a Consultation between us for carrying on the Design though I was not to move till farther order The next day Mrs Cellier was sent for to the Tower who upon her return told me I must speedily procure some persons that were well habited to go to the Coffee-houses and Clubs to learn how things stood Mrs Cellier was also present when the Lady P. told me that I must stick hard against the D. of Monmouth D. of Buckingham the E. of Shaftesbury Lord Grey Lord Howard and others all which was to be done when I went the first time to give His Majesty an Account of the new SHAM-PLOT at which time I was to inform His Majesty that if he had dyed at Windsor they had posted about the Town and Suburbs a considerable Army with which they intended to have taken possession and did design to bring the same to a Common-wealth and set up the D. of Monmouth as Head of the Government That the L. Shaftesbury and others were granting out Commissions to that purpose and that I my self had a promise of one from a great Presbyterian all which and more I told His Majesty by their directions just before his going to Newmarket whereupon His Majesty ordered me Money of which I sent an Account by Mrs Cellier to the Tower who at her return advised me to beware of one Colonel Halsel for that the Lords fear'd he would discover me Mrs Cellier carried word from me to the Tower where Colonel Mansel Lodged and upon her return told me the Lady P. would meet me in the afternoon at her House as she did and Mrs Cellier was present when her Ladiship bid me go again to Father Sharp to Confession and receive the Sacrament for that I was to go in a short time after to the Earl of Shaftesbury Soon after Mrs Cellier received a Letter that that very night I must go to the said Earl with this formal Complement My Lord I am a stranger to your Lordship neither introduced nor sent by any person but I desire to know if it be in my power to serve you whether I may have your Lordships favour Then did Mrs Cellier deliver into my hand a short Dagger of which sort and fashion three or four had been brought to her about three days before by a Virginia Merchant I being present at the same time when they were delivered to her After I had been with the Earl upon my return home I told Mrs Cellier I could not do my business which was indeed to stab his Lordship but would take some other opportunity Of all which Mrs Cellier sent an Account to the Tower and as she told me her self received for answer That I should go forthwith to the King and inform His Majesty that I had been with the E. of Shaftesbury who had promised me a Military Imployment Then by direction I went a second time to the E. of Shaftesbury Mrs Cellier furnished me then also with a Dagger But returning again without any success as they called it I received new Orders to go to the King and acquaint His Majesty how I had been a second time with the E. of Shaftesbury and of a great quantity of Papers that concerned the New PLOT that were in Colonel Mansels Chamber for the search whereof my farther business was to pray a Warrant which would not be granted because I could not make such Affidavit as was requisite For which I was well scool'd both by the Lady Powis and Mrs Cellier who after they had told me several ways how I might have saved my Oath added withal That I was obliged by my Religion to part with my Life for the good of the Cause Some small time after the Lady P. came to Mrs Celliers House where being all three together the Lady endeavoured to perswade me to go a third time to the Earl of Shaftesbury which I refused to do whereupon the Lady striking me gently on the hand with her Fan called me Cow-hearted fellow and said she would go herself Mrs Cellier made answer No Madam that shall not be for I will signifie to the world the bravery of our Sex above the Mens and go my self and do the work Whereupon she went out of the room for a while leaving the Lady and my self together to discourse the method of putting the Papers into Colonel Mansels Room which Papers when I had made them up I shewed them to Mrs Cellier who incouraged me to proceed saying she would warrant I should be well rewarded for my pains and wish'd me good success When I had convey'd the
answered she was afraid the Nation would be destroyed first L. C. J. Did she say the Nation would be destroyed first I ask you once more we must Try people according to Oaths by the Oath you have taken when you said the Popish PLOTTERS would be destroyed what Answer did she make Gad. She said she was afraid the Nation would be so because she saw abundance of the best of the Nation went out into other Nations to weaken our Nation and spend their Money and she feared the Nation would be destroyed before them viz the PLOTTERS L. C. J. What Discourse had you with Mrs Cellier passing through Westminster-Abbey Gad. My Lord my Memory has been exceedingly bruised but I remember my Lord as I was going through the Abbey in a rainy afternoon she said This Abbey was formerly filled with Benedictine Monks or something to that purpose and saith she What if it should be so again L. C. J. Are you a Protestant or a Papist Gad. A Protestant my Lord. L. C. J. He talks as like a Papist as can be was it What if it should be filled again Gad. What if it should be again L. C. J. What did you say to that Gad. I only smiled to hear a Womans discourse my Lord. L. C. J. You make all the Company laugh What did she say of the Temple Gad. That the Temple had been filled with Friars too L. C. J. And what then did she talk of filling it again What did she say concerning the Temple Gad. Nothing my Lord. Here Mr. Gadbury was going to read in his paper which was his Original Information given before the King and Councel but the Court told him that would not be allowed but he might refresh his memory with it L. C. J. Now tell me what she said Mr Gadbury keep it in your hand Gad. My Lord she put it by way of Interrogation to feel my pulse L. C. J. What did she say else Gad. There was nothing but transient discourse my Lord. L. C. J. We must ask you what the truth is look upon your paper and consider what you say and consider that you are upon a solemn occasion and are to testifie it in the presence of God Almighty I would have you tell plainly what it is and neither to make it more nor stifle it Gad. It was only transient discourse L. C. J. Say what it was was it This place was once filled with Benedictine Monks Gad. She said that the Abbey had been filled with Benedictine Monks as the Temple had with Friars J. Jones Look upon your paper You have looked upon the paper and praâ— tell us what she said did she say she hoped to see this place filled with Benedictines Gad. My Lord I don't remember that word hope J. Jones How long have you been acquainted with Mrs Cellier Gad. Ten or a dozen years L. C. J. Did she never ask you any question about the life of the King Gad. My Lord when the King was very ill at Windsor and she being fearful he would die she did move the question to me L. C. J. What Question Gad. To know whether I thought His Majesty would live or no but it was her fear that he would not L. C. J. Had you seen the King Gad. No my Lord. L. C. J. Did she desire you to consult your Art how then did she expect you should give her an Answer from your Art Gad. From my Art my Lord. L. C. J. Did she desire you to consult your Art how long the King would live Gad. She did as I said L. C. J. What did you say to that Gad. I would not tell her L. C. J. What Answer did you make Gad. I told her I would not meddle with it L. C. J. She would have had you consult your Art or Scheme or what ever it is to know whether the King would live or die Gad. It was something of that L. C. J. And you said you would not meddle or make with it Gad. Yes my Lord. L. C. J. She desired you to make a Scheme Gad. No my Lord I cannot say she mentioned a Scheme but she asked the question J. Ray. What else did she ask Gad. Only that question L. C. J. How often do you think she spake of it to you Gad. Never my Lord but when he was ill I will not baffle any thing that may conduce to the safety of the King and Kingdom L. C. J. Indeed it is very unconducible to the safety of the King and Kingdom if any go about to destroy him and with evil intentions to ask how long he will live and you ought in duty to God and your Soveraign to declare Did she ever make any enquiries about the Kings death more than what you have said Gad. No more my Lord but that she was fearful he would die L. C. J. Did she say she would go to somebody else Gad. My Lord when she perceived me shie saith she I see you are afraid of me I will go to some other Astrologer L. C. J. For what Gad. To satisfie her curiosity as a great many do L. C. J. What curiosity did she ask besides this Gad. She would ask me sometimes about the conditions of our bodies whether they should be prosperous in the world and several other questions L. C. J. Were you nice in these Curiosities Gad. Truly my Lord I was shie of medling with any thing when I heard there was a talk about PLOTS L. C. J. Was you nice to give her any satisfaction according to her hopes concerning those things you call Curiosities questioning whether she should be well fed how many Children she should have c. were you scrupulous in that Gad. I think I might not be in that particular L. C. J. How came it then that she should go to another Astrologer Gad. She asked me something about Mr. Dangerfield L. C. J. For what Gad. How to get him out of Prison L. C. J. Pray you how came she to say she would go to another Astrologer you were not shie of answering these questions Gad. It was something about Mr. Dangerfield And my Lord she asked me about some Deeds or Papers which he was to search for or seize which concerned Mr. Bedlow L. C. J. She had better have gone to one of the Clerks than a Conjurer for them but why should she go to another Astrologer Gad. Because I was shie L. C. J. Did she not say when you refused to meddle with the death of the King that she would go to another Astrologer Gad. Yes my Lord she did L. C. J. Did you do nothing for her at that time Gad My Lord I did a Scheme then which since I found to be for Mr. Dangerfield but I knew not for what it was when I did it L. C. J. Can you apply one Scheme to any body Gad. My Lord when Mrs Cellier came to me she gave me the time of a persons Nativity and I set the
Figure of Heaven to that time to know whether he were a person fit to be trusted her Husband being a French Merchant to get in Money L. C. J. Then for ought you knew Dangerfield was a Woman and the question was whether Dangerfield was with Child and it happens to be a Man how did it fall out Gad. I have forgotten my Lord. L. C. J. When did you know it was for Dangerfield Gad. My Lord never before I came before the King and Councel neither did I ever know his Name before for he went by the Name of Willoughby before L. C. J. What other discourse had you with her did she not at any time talk of Mr Dugdale Gad. She did say she had heard of some people that were to discourse with Mr. Dugdale she had heard the thing but I do not know whether she knew any thing of it or no. L. C. J. What discourse had you about that Gad. She told me there was a woman to go down to Windsor to beg Mr. Dugdales Pardon for he was penitent for what he had said in some Tryal or other Whitehal Friday Novemb. 7 1679. at the Councel-Chamber MArgaret Jenkinson formerly Servant to Mrs Cellier swears that she carried Money from her Mistress to Mr. Dangerfield in Newgate but does not remember how much it was That he was afterwards in the Counter whither Mrs. Cellier sent this Examinant with more Money but that not being sufficient she brought it back again and afterwards carried what was necessary with an order from her Mistress to tell him that business was ordered for him to do the Tuesday following and that she would purchase his Liberty at any rate But if it could not be done she could not tell if he should ever be freed by her or not That she did carry divers Letters between Dangerfield and her Mistriss but knew not what they concerned That she did carry two small Vials to him at the Kings-Bench by her Mistresses order that some time after she went again and Dangerfield desired her to bring a second Vial which she also carried That Dangerfield told her he had made Stroud drunk having taken something that hindred himself from being in that condition and that he gave her some Notes to carry her Mistress of what he had then got from Stroud Margaret Jenkinson The Information of John Woodman of Drury-lane Taylor taken upon Oath the 17th day of November before Edmund Warcup Esquire THis Informant saith that he hath known Mr. Thomas Dangerfield ever since March last past and then went with Mrs Cellier to see him in Newgate where Mrs Cellier whispered with Mr Dangerfield through a Grate and thereupon Mrs Cellier sent this Informant with a Quire of Paper afterwards to Mr. Dangerfield and a written paper which he was ordered to write out and about three hours after this Informant went to Mr. Dangerfield for the written paper by Mrs Celliers order which he carried to her at her House in Arundel-street but what the papers contained he knoweth not And Mrs Cellier confessed she both delivered and sent Money to Mr. Dangerfield She sent this Informant to Mr. Williamson with a Discharge for Mr. Dangerfield for which he said he must have Four pounds and this Informant supposeth that Mrs Cellier paid him that Money And this Informant saw Mr. Dangerfield twice at Powis-house about Midsummer past Mrs Cellier being with him Some papers lying upon the Table there and this Informant having been in prison before that time did receive some Charity from my Lady Powis by Mrs Celliers hands and on occasion of returning her Ladiship thanks for her Charity he saw the Lady Powis and Mr. Dangerfield at Powis-house And this Informant saith that he was acquainted with Father Harcourt for about Twenty years last past and wrought for him in his Trade and hath been sometime sent by Mr. Fenwick Mr. Ireland and others with Letters to divers places And he hath heard there was one Father Sharp at Wild-house but never was certainly informed of or knew any such person as Father Knollys And this Informant saith he was once or twice with Mrs Cellier at the Fleet when she went to visit Mr. Nevil alias Payne but heard not their discourse And this Informant went two or three times with Mrs Cellier to the Lord Castlemains House at Charing-cross where this Informant waited at the door and when she came down went away with her but was not privy to her business That this Informant went with Mrs Cellier to Mr. Dangerfield in the Kings-Bench where she discoursed with him privately about half an hour And at another time this Informant went with Mrs Cellier to the Marshalsea to one Mr. Nettervile and farther saith not John Woodman The Information of William Woodman Son of the said John Woodman taken upon Oath the same day THis Informant saith that he lived about six weeks with Madam Cellier and left her about Midsummer last past and when this Informant liv'd there he knew Mr. Willoughby alias Dangerfield who lay in Powis-house and was sent by him to the Lord Castlemains with a Letter who upon receipt of it delivered forty shillings to this Informant which he delivered to Madam Cellier And one time Mrs Sheldon sent Joe her Servant to Madam Cellier for a Letter which not being ready this Informant was afterwards sent with a Letter to Mrs Sheldons which Letter was to be sent to Windsor Another time this Informant was Commanded by Madam Cellier to go to Tyburn when Mr. Langhorn was Executed and was directed to stay there and get any flesh or any other thing belonging to him And at this Informants return home he found a bloody Handkerchief brought home as was said by Mr. Willoughby from the same place and there was that day at Dinner Mr. Cellier Mrs Cellier Mr. Nevil Mr. Webb Mr. Dormer Mr. Ricaut a Virginia Merchant Mr. Wood and Mr. Willoughby at Powis-house And this Informant was sent by Madam Cellier to Mr. Monson in the Kings-Bench with Letters and ten shillings at a time in Money And he carried five shillings for her to Mr. Kemish seven shillings and six pence at a time twice to Mr. Netterfield in the Marshalsea who said he was used to have ten shillings a week Another time this Informant carried a Letter to Sir John Gage in the Kings-Bench from Madam Cellier who returned the same Letter or Pacquet Sealed up with his Answer as this Informant supposeth And this Informant well remembers that one time he went with Mr. Dangerfield to a Coffee house in White-Friers and went up three pair of stairs and there saw a Gentleman being a little Blinking-man whose Hat hung over his Eyes whom Mr. Dangerfield saith now was one Mr. Knowles a Priest who came with Mr. Dangerfield to Powis-house in a Coach and brought a little Trunk and other goods in a bag with him and Lodged two or three nights there But being a timerous man he would not stay but
asswaged the rigorous entertainment of my Loyal attendance I shall take the words in the same order as they were spoken Dangerfield was you ever Indicted for Burglary What the world may think of the Question I cannot tell but to my apprehension it seemed very odd that such a person should put himself to the trouble of demanding a Question to which he could not choose but well know or rather was very certain that the Party Interrogated was no way bound to return an Answer If then the Answer were not within the Verge of Constraint consequently it was Impertinent and if so obnoxious for considering the Circumstances under which the Testimony was well known to have lain and how easily such petty obstacles might have been prevented by the usual fore-sight of those that fail not to inspect the Conversation of the most material Witnesses in Tryals of such concernment It was very strange that a person summoned after so long deliberation as a Witness for the King and ready to deliver his Evidence against the Prisoner at the Bar for no less than High-Treason should have his Mouth stopt with a Question which the Prisoner her self had not power to ask but onely to prove the matter of fact Had his Lordship demanded of Mrs Cellier whether she had ever been Indicted before of High-Treason he would have looked upon it as a great piece of Despair or Impudence had she answered Yes my Lord I have Yet he that would have smiled at self-accusation in a Prisoner could think it reason to sift the Kings Evidence to his own ruine And I must Arraign my self for I know not what Burglary to gratifie his Lordship and the Prisoner at the same time Arraigned by the Court for High Treason Let every Man have his right in God's Name With Submission I am apt to believe that here was either a mistake of the Sex or else a supposition at the delivery of the words that Man in English like Homo in Latine is of the Epicene Gender Else I cannot conceive what coherence there could be between this distributive expression and my Answer to his Lordships Question I will take it at their proof unless he thought I deserved to be Hanged for my obedience to the Kings Writ to which I was as I thought amply enabled by his most Gratious Favour No Impartial man could think I came there to do Mrs Cellier wrong or that such a thing was in my power for his Lordship could not but know she had acknowledged her Life was in my hands So that all the wrong she could expect from me was to be false to the King and Kingdom and all the right I could have done her was either to have devoted my self for her dear sake with an obstinate silence to the Halter or to have stifled my Evidence with some generous piece of self Homicide Upon the Testimony of Susan Edwards his Lordship was pleased to spring this Question to the Maid What did you say to Dangerfield when he said he must turn Rogue and discover all their PLOTS I am unwilling to let fly the least extravagant thought But certainly it was a particular way of Proceeding to give the Kings Evidence an opportunity to abuse and render the Kings Testimony ridiculous and by a question so remote and forraign that at first it onely created a wonder why it should be asked to make one of the best Collateral Witnesses the King had the sport of his own Court and all this for the wonder soon ceased to entertain the Auditory with a Sarcasme of a Chamber-maid I said he would be no greater Rogue than he was before How strong this smelt of premeditation I leave to the world to judge For his Lordship could not choose but know what the Answer would be who had the Question so ready when there was not the least cause or necessity for it For Susan Edwards was summoned to prove the bringing the Twenty shillings in Silver and the Guiney to me from Mrs Cellier at Newgate upon my first apprehension with Instructions what to say should I be asked about the occasion of our Correspondence She was to have proved the Message that she brought from Mrs Cellier to me soon after That her Life was in my hands and that if I did not stand fast she was an undone Woman Which had it been fully Sworn I question whether Mrs Cellier though I had been what they would have made me must not have been discharged the Jury and reserved to a farther discovery But to all this his Lordship had not one Interrogatory to purpose onely amuseth the unwary Damsel who if she pass henceforward for a Wit about the Town owes her advantage solely to his Lordship and leads her into a Question to destroy what he ought to have supported As if the Maid had been summoned thither not to give her Evidence but onely to shew her Parts Which when his Lordship had done he could not forbear to congratulate the Maids Wit with a Sardonick smile give her the great applause You were pretty nimble with him Whence I may with Seneca presume to observe that there is a difference between Passion and Sedateness and that apparent Heats and Transportments are not always the ornament of a Tribunal Quid ergo non irascor Latroni non irascor Venefico Non Sed procedam in Tribunal non infestus sed vultu Legis nec quicquam magnum est nisi quod simul placidum l. 1. de Ira c. 26. But now directing his Speech to Mrs Cellier with a more friendly sweetness he enquires of her Have you any Record to shew that Dangerfield was put in the Pillory As if it had been the work of that Morning to Arraign Mrs Cellier for Treason and try me by her Evidence You may be sure Mrs Cellier was loath to come to the Test and I think his Lordship was as unwilling she should what Records she had he had allowed her fairly enough before to produce without the help of such incouraging Questions Though the Court be of Councel for the Prisoner there was no such need of prompting a Woman whose readiness in such affairs had been so well experienced in the same place However it being now impossible for her to deny a favour so earnestly demanded she produced a Brace of Records the one was a Copy of an Outlawrie for Felony upon which his Lordship called to the Kings Councel Come Gentlemen what say you to this Outlawry for Felony Here his Lordship seemed to Caress the advantage he had over me he calls to the Kings Councel as one that saw he had put them to a puzzle and consequently certain of the Victory I would not willingly incur the displeasure of any man especially of his Lordship but my Justification urges me to say this that though there are many Reasons why a Man may ask a preparatory Question which he is able to resolve at the same instant yet here it carried the
resemblance onely of a preparatory Formality which the subsequent proceedings required The knowledge of my Offences were the Motives that induced Mrs Cellier to associate me with her self in the deep Contrivances of so wicked a Conspiracy His Majesty himself who never gave me those Reproaches under the foul guilt of Treason as his Lordship did when Pardoned by his Soveraign well knew my Crimes but beholding my penitence gave a forfeited Life to him who had been the bane of a Conspiracy against his Sacred person Else Mrs Cellier had hard measure to be so long detained upon the acccusations of one who walked about the Town with a defective Pardon And it may be looked upon as a Recompence for her Sufferings that she was so easily delivered Otherwise it was a severe Case that Mrs Cellier laden with so many Crimes fouler than all mine put together unless what she her self had involved me in should be brought to the Bar to encounter me her grand Associate her Confederate her Intimate in the conduct of all her mysterions Treacheries with an inconconsiderable Outlawry I speak comparatively and all for want of a Quibuscunque and this too in order to her Acquittal We ought to be very careful in these Concerns I dare not presume to instruct his Lordship nor do I nor do thousands more question but that his Lordship exactly understands how far his care ought to extend But whether needless and overweening nicety be care I leave the Casuists to dispute Care may be hurtful where there is more care taken of the greater Criminal than of the less Care may be too injurious if I may not say presumptive when it over-curiously scans and descants upon a thing of so solemn a nature as the Pardon of a Soveraign Prince whose onely Let him be Pardoned is like the command of Let there be day And I dare be bold to say That His Majesty never intended I should suffer that prejudice and disgrace by his Pardon as his Lordship hath put me to Else we may do a work this day may make the Kingdom rue it I see his Lordship continueth his care but there are many that fear his care was too neglectful to let so great a Criminal as Mrs Cellier was for while I have breath I must still maintain it break all the Fences of the Law for the meer defect of Clerkship And many good people there are whose Prayers Hopes and Wishes are all to the same effect That the Kingdom may not rue the Cavils of that Morning under the pretence of care and tenderness of Conscience And the Question may be fairly put whether the great Arch-Angel of the Three Kingdoms and the Tutelar Angels of the Nation his chosen Assistants shewed more care in committing so great an Offendor as Mrs Cellier and supporting my Information or his Lordship in vilifying both my Testimony and Person to set her free The World must needs believe that his Lordship had a very high opinion of his Prudence and Justice to advance them above the Wisdom and Equitable deliberation both of the King and his Councel But he had Condemned several at what time there was no disputing about Pardons though far more furiously Attacked and therefore as many must be saved or else Astraea's Ballance would fall from the Zodiack It is a sad thing that people of a vitious profligate Life both before they come to Newgate and all along in their Life-time should be suffered as a Witness to take away the Life of a Worm His Lordship next will deny the King his Prerogative for that very person whom the King had set right in Court he calls one of a vitious and profligate Life so far his Lordship differs from the sence of the Blessed Heaven rejoyceth at the Conversion of a sinner his Lordship storms at mine And because I had deservedly suffered before in bad Causes he was resolved to be even with me and make me suffer for once undeservedly in a good one I submit to his Lordship that it would be an hard case for such persons as he mentions to take away the Life of a Worm But his Lordship mistakes Mrs Celliers Character for she was no Worm unless he means such a Worm as would have Corroded and Cankered the very Root of the Nations happiness And then it was a sad thing that a person of a profligate Life Pardoned should not be admitted to give his Testimony against a Woman of a profligate Life unpardoned Here was onely the difference in the Proverb the Worm was trod on and his Lordship turned again Might I be so bold I would ask his Lordship who discovered the Conspiracy of Cataline but Curius Flagitiis atque facinoribus Coopertus Fulvia Salust Who revealed the Treasons of Marshal Biron but his Confident Laftin Accablé de Crimes de mauvaises affaires Mezeray For if a Man be not of the Cabinet-Councel of the wicked he shall never be able to know their Intrigues and if he know them not far less able to discover them Mrs Cellier acknowledged that had I not been brisk I had never been fit for their turn He that is not through-paced in bad principles is not to be trusted in the Murther of a Prince Men of Vertue certainly were not to be invited to the attempts But people of vitious Principles stick as close to them as honest and good men to the Precepts of Vertue which creates the difference and safety between communicating a piece of villany to a Miscreant and an honest man From whence I collect That no Man can be a good Witness in Mischief against his Confederates unless he be involved in the same Crime And therefore the reason is plain to all Men why some are Pardoned for Burglary some for Robbing on the High-way to the end they be good Witnesses to discover the mis-deeds of their Accomplices For to use his own words at the Lord Castlemains Tryal A Man once Pardoned is restored to his former Credit and so the King intends by all his Pardons Now if that be true as I would take all advantages to subscribe to his Lordships opinion certainly his Lordship was under a mistake so needlesly to quarrel with His Majesties Broad-Seal or at least to make so slight of his intentions Doubtless it was an high reflection upon the Kings Honour to repeat and raise from the Tomb of silence to the ruine of a Pardoned Subject the Ghosts of buried Crimes And yet soon after he had affronted His Majesties most gracious Act and Deed to declare that the very intentions of the King are valid in his Pardons But the grandeur of the antient Oracles consisted in their Ambiguity I question whether he will come again or no he has been gone a great while His Lordship pursues his Text very smartly and in another Man perhaps he would have looked upon it as a kind of Malitia praecogitata to prosecute a person that to his knowledge never did his Lordship wrong with
will submit to his Lordships condescention adding this to my former experiences that sometimes there may be a reason for great Men to advise as well as others And thus I have exposed with all submission and caution possible those Conceptions which the Impressions of my severe and unequal usage brought to the assistance of my most serious thoughts I shall now produce the Arguments maintained by the Kings Learned-Councel at the Tryal of the Lord Castlemain upon the same Subject in point of Law of which the subsequent Relation gives a true account The Wednesday sevennight after the Lord Castlemain coming to his Tryal I was Subpoena'd on His Majesties behalf by the Advice of His Learned Councel to be a Witness against him and the matter of Fact having reference to the same thing I think fit to give an accompt thereof The Arguments in Law on both sides and the Rosolution of the Judges of the Court of Kings-Bench about my being a Witness in the Case of the Earl of Castlemaine Mr. Att. G. CAll Mr. Dangerfield E. of Cast Stop a little Sir my Lord. Mr. Att. G. Swear him E. of Cast No I hope not Mr. Att. G. Why not E. of Cast My Lord here is an affair of Law and that I must submit to your Lordship and the Court whether Mr. Dangerfield be now to be admitted a Witness who hath been at this Court upon the like occasion and had the Censure that he was not to be admitted a Witness but had his mouth stopped then and I hope I may be permitted to shew my Reasons whether he may speak or no. L. C. J. My Lord Castlemaine you must shew the Exceptions you have against him if you will bar him of being a Witness E. of Cast My Lord he is a person that is Outlawed for Felony and a stigmatized Man he hath been in the Pillory and a great deal worse he hath been Burnt in the Hand now if your Lordship think it should be disputed I desire you would allot me Councel to argue the Law and then I shall submit to you L. C. J. I think it very reasonable you should have Councel assigned you for whether he be Stigmaticus or infamous by the Pillory it is fit you should be heard by your Councel whether he be a good Witness or no. Mr. Att. G. Pray my Lord let the Objections be first made E. of Cast I told you Sir before he is an Outlawed Man he was Convicted of Felony and ran away and upon that escape he was Outlawed Mr. Att. G. When do you say he was Outlawed E. Cast In the Seven and Twentieth year of the King Mr. Att. G. We say then he hath a Pardon wherein that Outlawry is pardoned L. C. J. When is that Pardon Mr. Att. G. In the 30th year of the King L. C. J. But my Lord how do you prove he was Burnt in the Hand for that will be the greatest Exception If a Man for Felony come to be Burnt in the Hand whether that be such a stigmatizing as will render him uncapable of giving Evidence Mr. Att. G. We say our general Pardon followeth that and so purgeth it Then the Record of the Outlawry was admitted and read and after that the Newgate Pardon in which Mr. Dangersield was particularly named Dated the 13th of June 30 Car. 2. L. C. J. For his Burning in the Hand what say you Mr. Atturney Mr. Att. G. His own Pardon comes after that L. C. J. As for the Outlawry it is Pardoned and by that he is restored to be a Witness again but of my Lords desire to have Councel assigned him to speak to this point whether a man branded and Burnt in the Hand for Felony be after to be received as a Witness I see no reason but he should have it Mr. Att. G. If your Lordship make that a doubt L. C. J. I do for my own part First in this matter I am clear if a Man were Convicted of Perjury no Pardon after will make him a Witness for that were to do the Subject wrong The Pardon doth not make a Man an honest Man but takes off those Reproaches that lay upon him for the Law is so wise it will not suffer needless Contumelies to be heaped upon him as to be called Perjured Raskal and the like which is only to prevent abusive Language that tends to the breach of the Peace But a Man once Convicted for Perjury in a Court of Record no Pardon ought or ever might set him up again But indeed that is not our Case we are upon this single point Whether a Man Burnt in the Hand to whom after a Pardon is granted may be a Witness Though perhaps it is not so strong in this Case as it is in the other of Perjury For a man it may be would not wilfully forswear himself that hath Committed a Robbery But I think it reasonable and there is no reason to deny it that my Lord should be allowed Councel to speak to the single point as the Case is here Who would you have assigned you my Lord E. Cast I do humbly beseech your Lordship since you have been so favourable as to allow me Councel that I may have assigned me Mr. Jones Mr. Sanders and Mr. Darnel L. C. J. Well let it be so Mr. Jones If your Lordship please we desire that his Pardon may be read L. C. J. Are you prepared for it to argue it now Mr. Jones No my Lord. L. C. J. My Lord Castlemain do you rest upon this Exception onely E. Cast My Lord I stand upon both L. C. J. The Outlawry is expresly pardoned E. Cast Then I must submit to that L. C. J. Have you any other Exception E. Cast My Lord I do humbly conceive the Pillory is another Exception and that the Burning in the Hand will render him incapable of being a Witness Mr. J. Dolbin Unless they will admit that you must prove it L. C. J. But see my Lord whether this be so necessary for your defence as to protract this Cause for the Argument Your Councel not being ready the Jury must be Adjourned and the Tryal put off I say this to you because I think it is the duty of my place to discharge my Conscience both for the King and the Prisoner But admitting that the Law should so fall out to be as is insisted upon that he is uncapable of being a Witness yet I will say this to you you may give in Evidence the Records of these Convictions of whatever sort and they shall be read It was said the last day there was Sixteen if there were Six hundred they should be all read and they will go all to invalidate his Credit and ought to have that influence upon all the Juries that such persons come before E. Cast I do bring here Sixteen Records of his infamous practices Mr. Att. G. We do allow that we have yet heard of but Six L. C. J. Now my Lord if you
think it worth the while to put your Councel to argue this point whether he be to be a Witness or no or whether you think it may be as well supposing he be admitted that by producing the Records you invalidate his Credit Mr. Darnel My Lord I humbly conceive by the Law that point may be saved to us L. C. J. Mind what it is you would have saved you would have him Sworn and then have it saved whether he ought to be Sworn E. Cast I would not have him Sworn till the point be over-ruled L. C. J. Will your Councel argue it now Mr. Darnel I would humbly pray first the Pardon may be read there are a great many several persons Pardoned and whether this be a good Pardon to any one single person of all the offences therein Then the Pardon was read and the words Outlawries and Felonies were in Mr. Att. G. That doth do it L. C. J. Why Mr. Darnel do you think at Newgate they take out a several Pardon for a joint Felony Mr. Darnel Such I have seen but my Lord I humbly conceive upon the Exception of Burning in the Hand he is no Witness And my Lord I find it hath been adjudged in 11 H. 4. 41. that a Man Attainted and Pardoned cannot be Sworn of a Jury And the same Question hath been resolved to since in 9 Jac. reported in Goldsboroughs Reports 34. And my Lord in Bulstrode's Second part 154 't is Brown and Crashers Case My Lord Cooke is reported there to be of the same opinion and that Book goes farther that by the same reason the Testimony of such an one as a Witness is to be refused also Mr. Justice Jones This is Sir Henry Finch his Case is it not Mr. J. Dolbin No that is in Godbolts Reports Mr. Darnel And the reason my Lord Cooke gives is this he saith That notwithstanding the Pardon he is not Probus legalis Homo And 12 Jac. in Brownlowes Reports fol. 47. the King Pardoned a Man Attainted of giving a false Verdict and 't is adjudged there he shall not be a Witness for the punishment was Pardoned yet the Court said the Guilt remained M. Att. G. That is but a short Note in that Book and there is not so much in the Book as you mention Mr. Darnel I wrote it out of the Book word for word as I repeat it The King may Pardon Simonie but he cannot enable the Simonist to retain and so is Crooke 686 Smith and Shelbournes Case Mr. Att. G. The Act of Parliament expresly makes him incapable Mr. Darnel I think the King might sure have dispensed with that incapacity but the Pardon could not take away the Guilt Mr. Att. G. No sure I think he could not against the express words of the Act. Mr. Darnel He can dispense with the punishment and those other Books are clear in it That after the Pardon the Guilt remains and for these Reasons and Authorities I do conceive he cannot be a Witness Mr. Att. G. I take it it is clearly contrary to the constant general opinion and the constant practice of the Law For when a Man is Pardoned I take it you may not say he is Perjured nor he is a Felon and he cannot be reputed so to any intent or purpose whatsoever L. C. J. I shewed you the practice of Law in that Case was consonant to Reason for it was to prevent railing Language which tended to the breach of the Peace but it is another thing for him to be repelled and hindred from being a Witness Mr. J. Dolbin I do take it when the King Pardons him he makes him as if he had never committed the Offence Mr. J. Jones No not so neither Brother L. C. J. Is not his Blood corrupted if he be Outlawed and the Pardon cannot restore that Mr. J. Dolb. As to Heirship it doth not but it restores him to his ability to Purchase as if he had never forfeited that capacity Mr. Att. G. And it makes him Liber legalis Homo for it hath been adjudged that such an one may wage Battle which he which is not Liber legalis Homo cannot do And if he be Liber c. he is certainly fit to be a good Witness Nay I do know in my own experience in the point of Perjury after Pardon he was and I saw him admitted as a Witness and that was one Burroughs a Yorkshire Man L. C. J. Was it ever questioned and admitted upon debate Mr. Att. G. I cannot say that L. C. J. And I have known it stood upon and such an one rejected Mr. J. Dolb. I have always taken it even in the case of Perjury that after a Pardon he is a lawful Witness his Credit is indeed left to be what it will be to the Jury and the constant course as to Felony is so How many persons are there every Sessions at Newgate Convicted upon the Testimony of persons concerned in the same Offence and Pardoned L. C. J. Was it ever opposed Mr. Recorder I cannot adventure to say the Question was made but the Judges knew them to be so concerned L. C. J. Will they take notice without the Question put Mr. Recorder I think they are bound if the Law be so not to let persons lose their Lives upon such Testimony L. C. J. We cannot tell whether it be so or no unless we have it stirred Mr. Record I know particularly at the last Sessions Withringtons Case who was Pardoned and after by his Testimony divers others were Convicted L. C. J. Was the Record of his Conviction shewn Mr. Record They did all know it very well L. C. J. Was it a Felony for stealing Mr. Record My Lord it was for Robbery on the High-way if it were in a Case between Party and Party except there had been Record of it made out in proof it had been no objection to his Testimony But in the Case of Felony where the Life of the party is concerned the Law saith the Court are of Councel for the Prisoner and if the Court doth know in fact as this was notoriously known that the Witnesses are Convicted of Felony and in Law that a Pardon will not make them Witnesses they are obliged to urge it and make it known therefore their practice and their not taking notice seems an Authority that they ought to be allowed as Witnesses though it is true their Credit is left to the Jury L. C. J. What think you if a man hath his Ears cut off in the Pillory and after a general Pardon comes which doth pardon those Offences for which he underwent that punishment do you think he is a good Witness Mr. Att. G. I do think he is a lawful Witness L. C. J. Doth the stigmatizing signifie nothing Mr. Att. G. But by the Pardon he is restored to be Liber Homo a Freeman in his own Person to all intents and purposes Mr. Darnel That Book 11 H. 4. hath expresly resolved that he
shall not be a Juror and the reason is because he is not Probus legalis homo and I cannot see why the same reason should not exclude him from being a Witness Mr. Att. G. There is a great deal of reason for it for in many Cases Men can be Witnesses that cannot be of Jury L. C. J. It is very true there are many such Cases but shew me one where a Man that is excluded from being a Jury-man is to be admitted as a Witness Mr. Att. G. The Brother or other Relation of the party L. C. J. But shew me one put by for infamy as a Juror yet admitted as a Witness Mr. Record A Juror is to judge what a Witness saith therefore a clearer reputation is required for him that is to be a Judge than him that is to give Evidence and he that is to be a Judge of anothers Credit should stand fair in his own so that all will depend on that the Credit is to be left to the Jury Mr. Att. G. And my Lord as to disreputation a Villain was never admitted to be a Juror and yet never denyed as a Witness and that for infamy L. C. J. What infamy is it Mr. Att. G. It was base L. C. J. But it was not wicked he might be honest though in servitude Mr. Att. G. He could not be of a Tales where none almost are excluded L. C. J. That was because he was not Talis as other Men are Mr. Att. G. No it was because he was not Liber homo but the Pardon here makes the party Liber legalis homo and so restores him to a capacity of all purposes Mr. Soll. G. But my Lord Hubbard doth expresly say in Searlyes Case taking notice that upon the Conviction there is Poena reatus the Pardon coming after doth take away both L. C. J. That is my Lord Hobarts opinion and it is true the very reatus is taken away so as never to be remembred again in order to punishment but doth it set a man right as to Reputation as if he had never offended it cannot be so in reason if twenty men come and tell me so Mr. J. Dolb. Certainly he is guilty still in strictness of Conception but the Law saith he is not guilty and the Law will admit such a Man to be a Witness but still such an one will be a bad one in our thoughts for all the Pardon L. C. J. Brother I agree with you in that and if I were in my Lord Castlemains case I would admit him and not labour farther to dispute the Law but when he has given his Testimony he shall have all these Records proved against him to invalidate what they can To which the Earl of Castlemaine seemed to consent and acquiesce in the opinion Mr. J. Jones I do confess my Lord Hales in his little Book of Pleas of the Crown doth say that after a Man hath his Clergy he hath his Credit L. C. J. He doth so indeed Brother Mr. J. Dolb. And the Case that Mr. Atturney puts of waging Battle is as plain a Case as can be for none can wage Battle but he that is Liber legalis homo for it might have been objected you broke Prison therefore you are not Liber c. and cannot wage Battle but if it were answered the King has Pardoned it he would be restored to be Liber c. which is the same Case in reason with this Mr. Sol. G. That is a restitution to a Capacity between party and party and not as to the taking off the punishment onely and a discharge from the King Mr. J. Dolb. It were well it were once setled for we have it often in our Circuits J. Jones But the matter is at an end now my L. of Castlemain consents Mr. Recorder But my Lord it will be a thing of great consequence to have it ruled and it much concerns me in respect of my place to be at some certainty about it for there is never a Sessions in the Old-Bailey but something of this nature will occur No Robbery can almost be discovered but we must make use of such as have been Accomplices the King pardons that he may have Evidence against others L. C. J. But that is before Conviction Mr. Record After Conviction my Lord. Mr. Darnel My Lord in my Lord Chief Justice Hides time in such a case it was adjudged he should be no Witness Mr. Att. G. Where is that Reported Mr. Darnel I have such a Note but I cannot tell the Cases name Mr. Att. G. You tell us of a Case without any thing to warrant its Authority and that no body ever heard of but your self We desire Mr. Dangerfield may be Sworn and truly if your Lordship pleaseth I have another thing to urge L. C. J. Have you any other Witnesses to examine Mr. Att. G. None but what are to corroborate his Testimony But in the common Case of an Approver he confesseth his own guilt and yet is a good Witness against the Approver L. C. J. But there is no Conviction Mr. Att. G. Yes his own Confession L. C. J. But how far is he a Witness Mr. Att. G. His Confession shall be Recorded and if he doth not Convict those he approves he shall die and so he Swears to save himself yet a good Witness L. C. J. The Law thought it convenient to discover Felonies and such great Offences which were hard to be done but by some that were Parties to the Offence and so would incourage them that would discover to Convict the rest but here comes a person that is Convicted and infamous by another Crime and would by his Evidence take away the Life of another not accused for that Crime for which he was Pardoned but another And that word reatus in my Lord Hobard is capable of an Interpretation another way and a Man may have his guilt taken away as to some purposes but not to other Mr. Att. G. But the Book saith it takes away all disabilities too L. C. J. I think there is a difference between a Pardon before Conviction and after Mr. Soll. G. But in Mr. Atturneys first Case even before Conviction there was a legal disability upon his breaking of Prison by reason of which he could not wage Battle till Pardoned L. C. J. It is a disability upon a Presumption not upon Conviction for the Law presumes a man that is innocent will abide his Tryal but if he break Prison and fly from Justice it argues guilt but in a man that is Convicted the guilt is plain Mr. Soll. G. But my Lord the presumption runs as high to the disability in the one case as the Conviction in the other if then the Pardon can take away one disability e pari it may the other also Mr. Att. G. Nay if you please to look into my Lord Hobard you will find he saith that the very acceptance of a Pardon implies a guilt L. C. J. No pray
Mr. Atturney I do not agree in that I would not have it concluded that every great Man in England that hath a Pardon is guilty of the Offences thereby pardoned Mr. J. Jones My Lord I take it there is a difference between a special Pardon and a general Pardon for by taking a particular special Pardon there cannot but be intended a consciousness of guilt but if a person be included in a general Pardon there is no consideration of any particular Offence and the laying hold of that implies not a guilt for all have it unless those particularly excepted and we cannot suppose every one guilty L. C. J. Truly I think the acceptance of a special Pardon doth not at all in itself without Confession or Conviction imply a Man to be guilty of the Crime pardoned For you know my Lord Cook says No wise Man will refuse Gods pardon and the Kingâ— at any time though we are conscious of no actual Crime to need it And besides in these times when no Man knows when he is safe from the Perjuries that do so much abound it may be prudence without a confession or implicitation of guilt to get a Pardon which we need not but only as a shelter against a false accusation Then Mr. Justice Raymund went down to the Common-pleas Mr. J. Jones Because we will not go either against Reason or Law or constant practice my Brother Raymund is gone down to ask the Opinions of the Judges of the Common-pleas Mr. Record My Lord Hales doth in his little Book say it restores him to his Credit Mr. Att. G. If it hath restored him to his Credit I hope they shall not blemish him so much as to make the Jury not believe him L. C. J. Ay but I assure you it shall have its due weight according to the Crimes charged upon him all the Records shall be read and all that can be observed from them shall Mr. Att. G. We do not desire but all that ought to be observed should so be L. C. J. Do you think we sit here to have Men loaden with all the guilt of most infamous villanies in the world come here by their Evidence take away Mens Lives and their qualifications not observed Mr. J. Dolbin My Brother will come up presently and we shall hear what they say to it L. C. J. We have men grown so insolent now adayes that upon what account or what sort of confidence to term it I know not run all whole Societies of Men and persons of all Qualities as if there were any thing in their confidence that could render them better than their own villanous Actions proclaim them to be Humility becomes Penitents and no wicked impudent man can be thought to repent but these Mens Behaviours hath nothing of an appearance of Repentance but with sauciness think to make all fly before them and that their boldness in accusing shall without more ado justifie the truth of their Accusation but God knows they discover what they are by their insolent carriage Then Mr. Justice Raymund returned and delivered the Opinions of the other Judges to my Lord and the other two Judges privately L. C. J. Look you I will tell you what my Brother reports their Opinions in the Common-pleas to be He says he put the Question to them in both cases That he is Outlawed for Felony and pardoned and Burnt in the Hand for Felony and pardoned They say they are of Opinion That the general Pardon would not restore him to be a Witness even as to the Outlawry of Felony because of the Interest the Kings Subjects have in him and his Testimony could not be received upon the general Pardon But they say this further That where a Man comes to be burnt in the Hand for a Felony they look upon that as a kind of a more general discharge than the Pardon alone would amount to if he had not been Burnt in the Hand If he had been Convicted and not Burnt a general Pardon would not have made him a good Witness but by that and the Pardon they think he is made a Legal Witness Mr. Darnel Notwithstanding the Outlawry L. C. J. That is answered otherwise Mr. Att. G. It is discharged come pray Swear him which was done Are you Sworn Sir Mr. Dangerfield Yes Sir Mr. Att. G. Come Sir then now tell what you know of my L. Castlemain L. C. J. But I conceive by their Opinions in the Common-pleas that they think a Pardon after Conviction of Perjury would not restore him to be a Witness because of the interest the Subject hath in his Testimony Then I proceeded to deliver my Evidence which was to this Effect That about the Month of June 1679 the Lady Powis sent me with a Letter to the Earl of Castlemain that being the first time I had ever been to wait on his Lordship to which Letter I received another in Answer and delivered it to the Lady Powis who read it to me as follows This person I like well and though he be no Scholar yet he may serve to instruct the Youths as he shall be directed by which I shall be eased of much trouble and suspition By those Youths was meant the St. Omers Witnesses for his Lordship was their Tutor His Lordship was one of those that imployed me to fetch Knox and Lane out of Prison Some time after that I went to wait on his Lordship with some Letters and Lists of Names that came from Nevel and upon the perusal thereof his Lordship ordered me to imploy divers persons to write Copies from them saying it was a business of consequence and must not be delayed Then I informed him that persons were at that very time a writing at Powis-house then his Lordship replyed let them go on and be encouraged and I will pay my part which his Lordship did for some time after I sent William Woodman then Servant to Mrs Cellier with a Letter to his Lordship who in answer thereto sent Forty shillings for his part of the Writing Now those Letters and those which I put into Colonel Mansels Chamber were all agreeable in matter of fact and tended onely in concurrency to the Sham-Plot His Lordship wrote the Compendium and I read one part of it as it lay before him at the same time His Lordship perused the Papers of Knox and Lane who intended to accuse Dr. Oates with Sodomy and his Lordship was also privy and gave consent to the drawing up and Swearing to the false Affidavits which Lane made before Sir James Butler The next day after I had been Treated with by the Lords in the Tower to kill the King I went to wait on the Lord Castlemain who having sent his Servant out of the Room demanded of me why I was so unwilling to do that for which I was taken out of Prison I desired to know what that was Why says his Lordship were you not yesterday at the Tower I answered yes I was and then said would your Lordship have me kill the King for that 's it you mean I suppose Then his Lordship said that was the business he meant and then he storm'd and was so furious that I cared not to stay any longer That his Lordship was privy to my part of the Sham-Plot and used in his discourse to call the King Tyrant This was the true Substance of my Evidence which being backt with Woodman 's the Court proceeded c. FINIS