THE TRYAL OF WILLIAM VISCOUNT STAFFORD FOR HIGH TREASON In Conspiring the Death of the KING The Extirpation of the PROTESTANT RELIGION The Subversion of the GOVERNMENT and Introduction of POPERY into this Realm Upon an IMPEACHMENT BY THE Knights Citizens and Burgesses in Parliament assembled In the Name of Themselves and of All the COMMONS OF ENGLAND Begun in Westminster-Hall the 30. day of November 1680. and continued until the 7. of December following on which day Judgment of High Treason was given upon him With the Manner of his Execution the 29. of the same Month. Dublin Reprinted by Jos Ray at College-Green and are to be sold by S. Helsham Job North Jos Howes and the rest of the Booksellers of Dublin 1681. The TRYAL of William Viscount Stafford Begun in Westminster-Hall November 30. 1680. The First Day WIlliam Earl of Powis William Viscount Stafford Henry Lord Arundel of Wardour William Lord Petre and John Lord Bellasis having been formerly impeached in the House of Lords of High Treason and other high Crimes and Offences by the House of Commons in the Name of Themselves and of all the Commons of England And the House of Commons having sent a Message to the Lords to acquaint them with the Resolution of that House to proceed to the Tryal of those Lords then in the Tower and forthwith to begin with the said Viscount Stafford and to desire their Lordships to appoint a convenient day for the Tryal of the said Viscount Stafford their Lordships did thereupon appoint the 30. day of November 1680. for his Trial And a place in Westminster-Hall having been for that purpose erected the same was as followeth viz. Therein were both Seats and Wool-packs correspondent in all points to those in the House of Lords as also a State placed at the upper end thereof with a Cabinet for the King and whom His Majesty should think fit to attend him there on the right hand the State and the like on the left hand for the Queen and her Followers As also Galleries over head for Ambassadors and others And to the end that the Commons might be fitted with Seats upon this great occasion there were erected for them on each side divers Benches on several degrees extending to the utmost Walls of the Hall At the lower end the Bar whereunto the Prisoners were to be brought being placed on the right hand thereof was a place raised about five Foot wherein the Witnesses were to stand and on the left hand a convenient Room for those particular Members of the House of Commons which were to manage the Evidence And the Right Honourable Heneage Lord Finch Baron of Daventry Lord High Chancellor of England being by His Majesties Special Letters Patent bearing date the 30. of November 1680. Constituted Lord High Steward for that present occasion upon Tuesday the said 30. of November the Lord High Steward was honorably attended from his House in Queen-street by all the Judges of His Majesties Courts in Westminster-Hall in their Robes as also by Garter Principal King of Arms in His Majesties Coat of Arms and the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod unto whom His Majesty had the day before delivered the White Wand to be carried before his Lordship and about nine of the clock in the morning set forwards in his Coach towards Westminster sitting at the hinder end thereof Garter and the Gentleman who bore the Great Seal sitting both uncovered at the other end one of the Setjeants at Arms with his Mace being placed on the right side the Coach and the Usher of the Black Rod carrying the VVhite VVand on the left side the Judges and his Lordships Gentlemen in several Coaches following after Being thus come to the Stairs-foot ascending to the House of Peers the Judges went up two and two together the Juniors first next the Lord High Steward's Gentlemen after them the Serjeant at Arms with his Mace and the Seal bearer and lastly the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod bearing the VVhite VVand Garter principal King of Arms going on his right hand Then his Lordship alone his Train born by one of his Gentlemen in this manner entring the House of Peers he found all the Lords in their Scarlet Robes also the Bishops in their Rochets and took his place upon the uppermost Woolsack This done and Prayers ended his Commission for Lord High Steward was read And then the Bishops receded and the Lords Adjourned themselves into the new erected a Court in VVestminster-Hall All things being thus in readiness and a large Door-place broken through the upper end of VVestminster-Hall into that Room which was heretofore the Court of VVards Their Lordships passed from their House first into the Painted Chamber then through that called the Court of Requests Thence turning on the left hand into that called the Court of VVards then entred at the Door so broke down as aforesaid into VVestminster Hall and passed through a long Gallery placed between the King's Bench and Chancery Courts into this New erected Court in VVestminster-Hall and proceeded after this manner viz. First the Assistants to the Clerk of the Parliament Then the Clerk of the Crown in Chancery and Clerk of the Parliament after them the Masters in Chancery two and two and the King's Attorney General alone Then the Judges of all Courts in VVestminster-Hall by two and two Next to them Noblemens Eldest Sons After them Four Serjeants at Arms bearing their Maces Next the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod. Then all the Noble Men according to their respective Degrees the Juniors first viz. Barons Viscounts Earls Great Officer viz. Lord Chamberlain of the Houshould Marquesses Dukes Great Officers Lord Privy Seal Great Officers Lord President of the Council Then Four more Serjeants at Arms bearing their Maces After them the Gentleman carrying the Great Seal Then one of His Majesties Gentlemen Ushers daily-waiters carrying the White Wand Garter Principal King of Arms going on his right Hand Then the Lord High Steward alone having his Train born and after him his Highness Rupert Duke of Cumberland a Prince of the Blood This done and the whole House of Peers having taken their Places according to their Degrees the Commons being also Seated on each side and the Managers in the Room appointed for them the Commons being all bare The Lord High Steward after obeysance made towards the State took his place upon the uppermost Wool-sack and thereupon receiving the VVhite VVand from Garter and the Gentleman Usher upon their Knees delivered it to the Usher of the Black Rod who held it during the time of Sitting there Having so done his Lordship said Cryer make Proclamation of Silence Then the Cryer a Serjeant at Arms made Proclamation thus All manner of Persons are straitly commanded to keep Silence upon pain of Imprisonment God save the King Lord High Steward Make Proclamation for the Lieutenant of the Tower to bring the Prisoner to the Bar. Cryer Oyes Oyes Oyes Lieutenant
of the Tower of London bring forth thy Prisoner William Viscount Stafford upon pain and peril shall fall thereon God save the King Whereupon the Lieutenant of the Tower brought the Prisoner to the Bar. Usher of the Black Rod. My Lord Stafford must kneel which he did Lord high Steward Rise my Lord. Then he Arose and stood at the Bar and the Lord High Steward spake to him as followeth My Lord Viscount Stafford THE Commons of England Assembled in Parliament have Impeach'd your Lordship of High Treason and you are brought this Day to the Bar to be Tryed upon that Impeachment You are not Try'd upon the Indictment of Treason found by the Grand Jury tho there be that too in the Case But you are Prosecuted and Pursued by the Loud and Dreadsul Complaints of the Commons and are to be Try'd upon the Presentment which hath been made by the Grand Inquest of the whole Nation In this so Great and Weighty Cause you are to be Judg'd by the whole Body of the House of Peers The Highest and the Noblest Court in This or perhaps in any other part of the Christian World Here you may be sure no False Weights or Measures ever will or can be found Here the Ballance will be exactly kept and all the Grains of Allowance which your Case will bear will certainly be put into the Scales But as it is impossible for my Lords to Condemn the Innocent so 't is equally Impossible that They should clear the Guilty If therefore you have been Agitated by a Restless Zeal to Promote that which you call the Catholick Cause If this Zeal have Engaged you in such Deep and Black Designs as you are Charged with and this Charge shall be fully Prov'd Then you must Expect to Reap what you have Sown for every Work must and ought to Receive the Wages that are due to it Hear therefore with Patience what shall be said against you for you shall have full Time and Scope to Answer it Aud when you come to make your Defence you shall have a very fair and equal Hearing In the mean time the best Entrance upon this Service will be to begin with Reading of the Charge Lord High Steward My Lord if your Lordship find your self infirm and unable to stand your Lordship may have a Chair to ease your self whilst the Charge is Reading and a Chair was brought accordingly and his Lordship sate thereon Clerk of the Parliament Read the Charge Articles of Impeachment of High Treason and other high Crimes and Offences against William Earl of Powis William Viscount Stafford and Henry Lord Arundel of Wardour William Lord Petre and John Lord Bellasis now Prisoners in the Tower of London 1. THat for many years now last past there hath been contrived and carried on by Papists a Trayterous and execrable Conspiracy and Plot within this Kingdom of England and other places to Alter Change and Subvert the Ancient Government and Laws of this Kingdom and Nation and to Suppress the True Religion therein Established and to Extirpate and Destroy the Professors thereof which said Plot and Conspiracy was contrived and carried on in divers Places and by several ways and means and by a great number of Persons of several Qualities and Degrees who Acted therein and intended thereby to Execute and Accomplish the aforesaid Wicked and Traiterous Designs and Purposes That the said William Earl of Powis William Viscount Stafford Henry Lord Arundel of Wardour William Lord Petre and John Lord Bellasis together with Philip Howard commonly called Cardinal of Norfolk Thomas White alias Whitebread commonly called Provincial of the Jesuits in England Richard Strange lately called Provincial of the Jesuits in England Vincent commonly called Provincial of the Dominicans in England James Corker commonly called President of the Benedictines Sir John Warner alias Clare Baronet William Harcourt John Kenis Nicholas Blundel Poole Edward Mico Thomas Bedingfield alias Benefield Basil Langworth Charles Peters Richard Peters John Conyers Sir George Wakeman Thomas Fenwick Dominick Kelly Fitzgerald Evers Sir Thomas Preston William Lovel Jesuits Lord Baltamore John Carrel John Townely Richard Langhorn William Fogarty Thomas Penny Matthew Medbourn Edward Coleman William Ireland John Grove Thomas Pickering John Smith and divers other Jesuits Priests Fryers and other Persons as false Traytors to his Majesty and this Kingdom within the time aforesaid have Traiterously Consulted Contrived and Acted to and for the accomplishing of the said wicked pernitious and Traiterous Designs and for that end did most wickedly and Traiterously agree Conspire and resolve to Imprison Depose and Murder his Sacred Majesty and to deprive him of his Royal State Crown and Dignity and by malicious and advised speaking writing and otherwise declared such their Purposes and Intentions And also to subject this Kingdom and Nation to the Pope and to his Tyrannical Government And to seize and share amongst themselves the Estates and Inheritances of his Majesties Protestant Subjects And to Erect and Restore Abbeys Monasteries and other Convents and Societies which have been long since by the Laws of this Kingdom suppressed for their Superstition and Idolatry and to deliver up and restore to them the Lands and Possessions now vested in his Majesty and his Subjects by the Laws and Statutes of this Realm And also to Found and Erect new Monasteries and Convents and to remove and deprive all Protestant Bishops and other Ecclesiastical persons from their Offices Benefices and Preferments And by this means to destroy his Majesties Person extirpate the Protestant Religion overthrow the Rights Liberties and Properties of all his Majesties good Subjects Subvert the lawful Government of this Kingdom and subject the same to the Tyranny of the See of Rome 3. That the said Conspirators and their Complices and Confederates Traiterously had and held several Meetings Assemblies and Consultations wherein it was Contrived and Designed among them what means should be used and what Persons and Instruments should be Employed to Murder his Majesty And did then and there resolve to effect it by Poisoning Shooting Stabbing or some such like ways and means and offered Rewards and Promises of advantage to several persons to execute the same and hired and imployed several wicked persons to go to Windsor and other places where his Majesty did reside to murder and destroy his Majesty which said persons or some of them accepted such Rewards and undertook the perpetrating thereof and did actually go to the said Places for that end and purpose 4. That the said Conspirators the better to compass their Trayterous Designs have Consulted to Raise and have procured and raised Men Money Horses Arms and Ammunition and also have made Application to and Treated and Corresponded with the Pope his Cardinals Nuncioes and Agents and with other Forreign Ministers and Persons to raise and obtain Supplies of Men Money Arms and Ammunition therewith to make levy and raise War Rebellion and Tumults within this Kingdom and to Invade the same with
Forreign Forces and to surprize seize and destroy His Majesties Navy Forts Magazines and places of strength within this Kingdom whereupon the Calamities of War Murders of Innocent Subjects Men Women and Children Burnings Rapines Devastations and other dreadful Miseries and Mischiefs must inevitably have ensued to the ruine and destruction of this Nation 5. And the said Conspirators have procured and accepted and delivered out several Instruments Commissions and Powers made and granted by or under the Pope or other Vnlawful and Vsurped Authority to raise and dispose of Men Moneys Arms and other things necessary for their wicked and traiterous Designs and namely a Commission for the said Henry Lord Arundel of Wardour to be Lord Chancellor of England another Commission to the said William Earl of Powis to be Lord Treasurer of England another Commission to the said John Lord Bellasis to be General of the Army to be raised another Commission to the said William Lord Petre to be Lieutenant General of the same Army and a Power for the said William Viscount Stafford to be Paymaster of the Army 6. That in order to encourage themselves in Prosecuting their said wicked Plots Conspiracies and Treasons and to hide and hinder the Discovery of the same and to secure themselves from Justice and Punishment the Conspirators aforesaid their Complices and Confederates have used many wicked and diabolical Practices viz. They did cause their Priests to Administer to the said Conspirators an Oath of Secrecy together with their Sacrament and also did cause their said Priests upon Confessions to give their Absolutions upon Condition that they should conceal the said Conspiracy And when about the Month of September last Sir Edmundbury Godfrey a Justice of Peace had according to the Duty of his Oath and Office taken several Examinations Informations concerning the said Conspiracy and Plot the said Conspirators or some of them by Advice Assent Counsel and Instigation of the rest did incite and procure divers Persons to lie in wait and pursue the said Sir Edmundbury Godfrey divers days with intent to Murder him which at last was perpetrated and effected by them for which said horrid Crimes and Offences Robert Green Henry Berry and Lawrence Hill have since been Attainted and Dominick Kelly and Girald and others are fled for the same After which Murder and before the Body was found or the Murder known to any but the Complices therein the said Persons falsly gave out that he was alive and privately Married And after the Body found dispersed a false and malitious Report That he had Murdered himself Which said Murther was committed with design to stifle and suppress the Evidence he had taken and had knowledge of and discourage and deter Magistrates and Others from Acting in further Discovery of the said Conspiracy and Plot For which end also the said Sir Edmundbury Godfrey while he was alive was by them their Complices and Favourers threatned and discouraged in his proceedings about the same 7. And of their further Malice they have wickedly contrived by many false Suggestions to lay the Imputation and Guilt of the aforesaid Horrid and Detestable Crimes upon the Protestants that so thereby they might escape the Punishments they have justly deserved and expose the Protestants to great Scandal and subject them to Persecution and Oppression in all Kingdoms and Countries where the Romish Religion is received and professed All which Treasons Crimes and Offences above mentioned were Contrived Committed Perpetrated Acted and done by the said William Earl of Powis William Viscount Stafford William Lord Petre Henry Lord Arundel of Wardour and John Lord Bellasis and other the Conspirators aforesaid against our Sovereign Lord the KING His Crown and Dignity and against the Laws and Sta tutes of this Kingdom Of all which Treasons Crimes and Offences the Knights Citizens and Burgesses in Parliament Assembled do in the Name of themselves and of all the Commons of England Impeach the said William Earl of Powis William Viscount Stafford William Lord Petre Henry Lord Arundel of Wardour and John Lord Bellasis and every of them And the said Commons by protestation saving to themselves the liberty of exhibiting at any time hereafter any other Accusations or Impeachments against the said William Earl of Powis William Viscount Stafford William Lord Petre Henry Lord Arundel of Wardour and John Lord Bellasis and every of them And also of replying to the Answers which they and every of them shall make to the Premises or any of them or to any other Accusation or Impeachment which shall be by them Exhibited as the cause according to Course and Proceedings of Parliament shall require do pray that the said William Earl of Powis William Viscount Stafford William Lord Petre Henry Lord Arundel of Wardour and John Lord Bellasis and every of them be put to Answer all and every the Premises And that such Proceedings Examinations Trials and Judgments may be upon them and every of them had and used as shall be agreeable to Lâ—v and Justice and Course of Parliament The Humble Answer of William Viscount of Stafford now Prisoner in His Majesties Tower of London to the Impeachment of High Treason and other high Crimes and Misdemeanors exhibited against him and others to the Right Honorable the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament by the Knights Citizens and Burgesses in Parliament assembled in the name of themselves and of the Commons of England THe said Viscount saving to himself all advantage and benefit of Exceptions to the generality incertainty and insufficiency of the said Impeachment most humbly beseeching their Lordships thereof to take due notice and thereunto at all times to have a just regard He answereth and saith That he is not Guilty of all or any of the Offences charged against him by the said Impeachment and for his Tryal humbly and willingly putteth himself upon his Peers no ways doubting but that by the Grace of God and their Lordships impartial Justice he shall make his Innocence appear All which he most humbly submitteth unto their Lordships further Consideration Stafford Lord High Steward Gentlemen of the House of Commons be pleased to proceed Then Mr. Serjeant Maynard one of the Committee appointed to manage the Evidence began as followeth My Lords MAy it please your Lordships By the Command of the House of Commons who have imposed upon Us this Task we are here to Prosecute this great Charge against the Prisoner the Lord at the Bar. My Lords There are two Parts that are in this great Charge there is a General which is the Subversion of the whole Nation the King Himself to be Murdered the Protestant Religion to be Suppressed War to be introduced and those other things that are expressed in the Articles This General is charged in particular upon this Lord And my Lords it was in consideration how far it was fit to meddle with this General at this particular Tryal For if this Lord be guilty of such Crimes it will
Have you done with Mr. Dugdale L. Stafford Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. Whom will you proceed against next L. Stafford Dr. Oats L. H. Stew. Call Dr. Oats L. Stafford Only give me leave to say one thing my Lords that you were pleased to say I should have Copies of the two Depositions of the Twenty fourth and Twenty ninth of December And I had one to inquire but can't find that of the Twenty ninth Then Dr. Oats stood up L. H. Stew. What say you to Dr. Oats my Lord Lord Stafford This Dr. Oats if your Lordships please I desire may be asked when was the first time he ever saw me in his life L. H. Steward When was the first time Dr Oats you saw my Lord Stafford Dr. Oats My Lords the first time I saw this Gentleman at the Bar was as near as I remember at Mr. Fenwicks L. H. Stew. That was in Drury lane Dr. Oats Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. When was that Dr. Oats That was as near as I remember in June L. H. Stew. Was it that time the Commission you spoke of was delivered Dr. Oats Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. Did you see that Commission Dr. Oats Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. Did you read it Dr. Oats Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. From whom was it Dr. Oats I cannot be positive as to that but as near as I remember it was signed as the rest was signed L. H. Stew. How was that Dr. Oats Johannes Paulus Oliva L. H. Stew. You read it Dr. Oats Yes I did my Lords L. H. Stew. It was a Commission to be Pay-Master of the Army was it not Dr. Oats Yes it was L. H. Stew. And it was delivered to my Lord Dr. Oats Yes it was L. H. Stew. By the Name of Mr. Howard of Effingham Dr. Oats Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. What says your Lordship to this L. Stafford What is it possible for me to say against this I declare to your Lordships in the presence of God I never saw the man in my life I never went by any Name since I had the Honour of being a Peer but by the name of Stafford I never heard of Mr. Fenwick the Jesuit nor by the name Thompson till this Plot was discovered and he taken This you may believe or not if you please but this is as true as I am alive My Lords I desire I may have out of the Journals the Deposition on which I was committed L. H. Stew. Turn to the Journal L. Stafford It was read as I remember Friday 25. Octob. 78. Then the Clerk turned to the Journal and read Die Veneris 25. die Octobris 1678. THe Lord Viscount Stafford acquainted the House That he was informed that there was a Warrant issued out from the Lord Chief Justice of England to apprehend him which he thought fit to acquaint their Lordships with and submitted himself their Lordships Judgment The Lord Chief Justice being present was commanded to give the House an account of the business who said That last night about nine of the clock he received a Letter from the Speaker of the House of Commons dated from the Speakers Chair to come to the House of Commons about business of great concernment Accordingly he attended the House of Commons where the Speaker told him that the House of Commons had receiv'd Accusations of High Treason against five Lords and some Gentlemen and desired him to issue out his Warrants for their Apprehension The Persons were the Earl of Powis Viscount Stafford the Lord Arundel of Wardour the Lord Petres and the Lord Bellasis And upon this he issued out his Warrants for their Apprehension having taken the Examination of Titus Oats upon Oath That the Earl of Powis and the Lord Arundel were brought to him this morning in custody and he advised them to render themselves to the Gatehouse where now they are Upon this the Examination of Oats was read whereby it did appear That the Lord Viscount Stafford was charged to be in a Conspiracy of Treason against the King The Lord Viscount Stafford denyed the Fact and after this withdrew And after a while the House was informed that his Lordship would render himself to the Lord Chief Justice L. H. Stew. This is all that is in the Journal L. Stafford Then my Lords if your Lordships please to remember all of you that were there that I was accused by Dr. Oats whose Depositions I desire to see taken before my Lord Chief Justice that he had seen Letters of mine written to Fenwick Harcourt and some others three or four Jesuits in which I was consenting to the Plot that I had sent my Son to Lisbon yet I would be as kind to the Jesuits as before though there was some difference between us These Affidavits I desire to see which as I take it were read before your Lordships that day L. H. Stew. The Affidavit was taken by my Lord Chief Justice in the House of Commons where he did attend them upon their Summons I know not if the Original were read in the House of Lords or the Copy but it seems it is not entred into the Lords Journal but your Lordship had an Order to take Copies of all things you would have demanded and if you would not I cannot tell what to say to it L. Stafford Truly I could not take a Copy because I did not know where it was I desire my Lord Chief Justice may be asked where it is that is all I desire and I will then go on L. H. Stew. I think Dr. Oats does say at this time that he had seen Letters of your Lordships offering your Correspondence and Assistance L. Stafford If Dr. Oats will own he said no more than is in that Affidavit I am content Lord High Steward Have you any Copy of your own Examination Doctor Oats Dr. Oats Yes my Lords I think I have it here L. H. Stew. Marry that is very well produce it then Do you oppose it Gentlemen Managers No we agree we desire the Truth may come out Then Dr. Oats looking amongst his Papers drew out one and offered it to the Court. L. H. Stew. Is that a true Copy of your first Examination Dr. Oates My Lords I will not swear it but it was given me for a true Copy L. H. Stew. By whom was it given you Dr. Oates I can't remember now 't is two years ago Sir W. Jones Unless we know whence it comes or what authority it hath we cannot consent it should be read L. H. Steward Had you it from my Lord Cheif Justice or any servant of his Dr. Oates I can't tell whether Sir Charles Harbord gave it me or no. Sir Fr. Winn. My Lords Sir Charles Harbord might be of the Committee of Examinations but the Examination for which my Lord asked was not in the Committee nor before the house My Lord chief Justice retired out of the house Virtute Officii took it Now it was very fair in Mr.
I do not think we shall need to trouble your Lordships more with this matter that my Lord was lame sometime he is pleased to confess One Witness says that he put his Foot on a Cushion my Lord does not acknowledge that L. Stafford I was never lame at Paris Sir VVill. Jones That a man that is lame does sometimes ease his Foot is no hard Consequence I think L. Stafford I deny I was lame then I walked about the streets of Paris I desire I may not be misunderstood Sir VVill. Jones I must then desire under his Lordships favour if he will not acknowledge it to be within seven years that we may prove it and falsifie his Witness the Page L. Stafford I have gone with a stick to the House I acknowledge it and been lame with weariness Sir Fr. VVinn The Objection went to the Credit of our Witness and therefore we desire to answer it my Lord was not lame as he says for so many years but if we prove that within less time my Lord hath been lame it will take off that Objection from our Witness And we desire a Noble Lord or two of this House may testifie what they know And first the Earl of Stamford who was sworn Earl of Stamford My Lords I think I have not had the honour to sit in this House much above seven years but long since that time I have seen my Lord Stafford come lame into the House of Peers and that is all I can say L. Stafford I have come lame with a stick to the House I say Sir Fr. Winn. My Lords we desire that Noble Lord my Lord Lovelace may be sworn which was done Lord Lovelace My Lords the Account that I can give your Lordships is this I cannot ascertain any time but I am sure and I do declare it upon my Honour and the Oath I have taken that I have seen my Lord Stafford lame in the House of Lords within less than this seven years L. Stafford If he goes home to the Tower he may see me lame but never put my Foot upon a stool Sir Will. Jones My Lords your Lordships will be pleased to remember we did call a Witness one Thomas Launder and the account we had of him was he was gone sick from the Bar he was very sick indeed but being just now brought we desire he may be heard though it be out of time we call him to the Reputation of Holt. Thomas Launder was sworn Sir John Trevor Do you declare to my Lords whether you know Samuel Holt Launder Yes my Lords I do L. H. Steward What do you know of him Launder He is a Smith my Lords L. H. Steward What Reputation is he of Launder Indifferent my Lords Sir William Jones What do you mean by that good or bad speak plainly Launder A Drunken Sot a man that will Drink and Rant and Tear the Ground and sing two or three days or a week together and lose his time Sir Fr. Winn. I would ask this man whether he was summoned as a Witness upon any Tryal in relation to the Plot L. H. Stew. Were you ever summon'd as a Witness about the Plot Launder My Lords I was summon'd concerning my Lord Aston's Tryal and I came up with my Lord Aston's people as an Evidence Sir W. Jones Had you any offer of money and what sum Launder Yes my Lords Sir Fr. Winn. Acquaint my Lords with it L. H. Stew. Who offered it you and when and for what Sir Will. Jones For what was that money offered you Launder The money was not absolutely offered me but I was to have an Horse to ride on and money in my Pocket if I could take off James Ansel Dugdale's Evidence L. H. Stew. Who came and offered it to you Launder I was sent for by Mr. Fox to Tixal Hall and there was my old Lords Brother for one and Mr. Thomas Aston that is this young Lords Brother and Mr. Francis Aston who is my Lords eldest Son were in a Room together and this Thomas Sawyer that was here and more were in the Room when they promised all these things L. H. Steward If you would do what Launder If I would take my Oath that this James Ansell was a Perjured Rogue L. H. Stew. Did all they make you this promise Launder Yes my Lords Mr. Fotey It was a Consult together about taking off the Evidence Sir Will Jones My Lords we have done with our Witnesses if my Lord Stafford please to conclude we are ready to do so too L. Stafford What should I conclude about those Witnesses you have now brought in Sir W. Jones Your Lordship may please to conclude your Evidence we are ready to conclude on our part L. Stafford These new Witnesses must I say what I can say against them presently I cannot do it I know very few of them L. H. Steward Have you any Witnesses here my Lord L. Stafford I cannot possibly have any For I did not know nor guess these people would be brought against me They are persons I know nothing of Ansell I have seen four or five times I may have seen the rest but I do not know them to be able to give an accompt of them L. H. Stew. If you have any Witnesses here to support the credit of your own Witnesses that have been impeached you may call them L. Stafford I have none my Lords L. H. Stew. Will your Lordship recapitulate the material parts of your Defence that the Process may be closed L. Stafford I am very unready for it my Lords Let me ask Mr. VVhitby a Question if I must have no more time Mr. Whitby stood up L. H. Stew. There he is what would your Lordship have with him L. Stafford I do not know the Gentleman Mr. VVhitby Nor I your Lordship Lord Stafford I ask him upon the Oath he hath taken I know he will speak truth whether he did not some years ago tell my Lord Aston that is dead this Lord's Father That Dugdale was a Knave and persuaded him to turn him away I say not it is true but I have heard so and desired him to tell his Son so that he might quit himself of him L. H. Steward What say you Mr. VVhitby Mr. VVhitby My Lords about three or four years ago my Lord Aston that is dead I believe it may be two years last April sent for me to dine with him and when I came thither he told me says he Mr. VVhitby I have sent to you to acquaint you with a thing but I do not believe it before I tell it you What is it said I said he Stephen Dugdale hath acquainted me that you have employed persons upon the Water to destroy my Water said I my Lord I never endeavoured it he said he did believe me then I told my Lord said I Mr. Dugdale is a dishonour to the Family upon this accompt because many times people come for money and he will not let them have it
knowledge Sir John Trevor Then the next Witness we desire may be called is Mr. Bernard Dennis Mr. Serj. Maynard This Witness we call now is to confirm what Dr. Oats hath said that he was at Validolid and other places in Spain he will be short Lord High Steward Call you Oats again Sir Franc. Winn No my Lord We call Dennis to confirm what Dr. Oats hath said He hath given your Lordship an account that he was in Spain we now produce one that saw him when he was there and so confirms the Evidence given by him Then Mr. Dennis was sworn Mr. Treby Mr. Dennis Do you give their Lordships an Account of your Discoursing with Dr. Oats in Spain or any where else abroad and where L. H. Steward Stay a little Do you know Mr. Oats Mr. Dennis Yes my Lord. L. H. Steward How long have you known him Mr. Dennis I knew him in the year 77. L. H. Steward Where Mr. Dennis At Validolid L. H. Steward Did you see him there was he a Student there Mr. Dennis Yes my Lord. Lord High Stew. Was he known by the name of Oats Mr. Dennis Yes my Lord he was Sir Franc. Winn. My Lord We desire he may tell his knowledge of Mr. Oats what conversation he had with him in Spain Mr. Dennis My Lords I was in Spain in the City of Victoria and leaving the City of Victoria in the month of June I took my course to Madrid and passing through the City of Validolid going into the Convent of the Dominicans there came an Irishman a Priest of Ireland out of the City to seo me and there he told me there was a Student of the Jesuits by name Mr. Oats an Englishman and I understanding this went into the Colledge of the Jesuits to see Mr. Oats and there had conversation with Mr. Oats and in the conversation I had with him there he told me that he was a Vicar in Kent and that he was Chaplain to a great Nobleman in England by name Howard and that he went out of England by the consent of the Jesuits in England being converted by them to the Roman Catholick Faith and that his going into Spain was to fit himself for the Society of the Jesuits and understanding my resolution was to go to Madrid he did desire me to carry a Letter to the Archbishop of Tune one James Lench an Irishman who lived at Madrid and further he lent me four pieces of Eight to defray my Journey to Madrid and desired me to pay the money to the Procurator of the Jesuits at Madrid and in carrying this Letter to the Archbishop when I came there I got a Dominican Fryer of Ireland by name Humphry Delphin to go with me and see the Archbishop at his lodging and going in I delivered him the Letter in the presence of the Dominican and he perused it in my presence and in the presence of a Priest that waited upon him and finishing the Contents of the Letter as I suppose with a smiling Countenance he turned about and said Sirs the Contents of this Letter is that Mr. Oats is desirous to receive the Order of Priesthood from me or at my hands and if it be so it will be much in our way and this man will be a fit man for our purpose for said he further Dr Oliver Plunket Primate of Ireland is resolved this year or with the next Convenience to bring in a French Power into Ireland and thereby to support the Roman Catholicks in England and Ireland and if it please God I my self without any delay will go into Ireland to assist that pious Work All this Discourse between us and the Archbishop and between Oats and me was in July 77. And there I did speak and converse with Mr. Oats All this I can testifie for truth on the behalf of Mr. Oats who was then a Student in the Colledge of Validolid and had no other name nor title Mr. Foley I desire himself may tell your Lordships what Religion he is of Lord High Steward What Religion are you of Mr. Dennis I am a Dominican Fryer my Lord. Lord High Steward Are you Mr. Dennis My Lords I am Lord High Steward At this time Mr. Dennis Yes my Lords Mr. Serj. Maynard He hath a Pardon my Lords Mr. Treby This hath been controverted my Lords whether Mr. Oats ever was in Spain we desire to make it out plain to the world for the Confirmation of his Evidence Therefore we ask him again Do you know the person of Mr. Oats Mr. Dennis Yes I do Mr. Treby Is this person that gave Evidence last before you the same person you saw at Validolid Mr. Dennis Yes it is Mr. Sacheverel My Lords we desire to ask of him why he had the four pieces of Eight of Mr. Oats Lord High Steward Why had you that money of Oats Mr. Dennis For to defray my Journey to Madrid Lord High Stew. Was that all you had Mr. Dennis Yes my Lords Mr. Sacheverel We pray he may be asked how he came to be so needy Mr. Dennis My Lords I was not altogether needy but it is very certain Religious persons especially of my Order cannot carry any money about them but what is requisite for their Journey and that which may be removed from place to place Sir John Trevor I desire to ask him did he see any more money that Dr. Oats had Mr. Dennis I did see Dr. Oats in his Chamber in the Colledge at Validolid when he delivered me the four pieces of Eight to draw out a Drawer of a Table in his Chamber and out of the Drawer he pulled a Bag of money which was a very considerable Sum of money and I am certain he did not want money there then Mr. Treby My Lords I think we have done with him if my Lord please to ask him any Question he may Lord Stafford But only one Question for I never saw the man in my life I desire he may be asked whether he be still of the Romish Religion Sir John Trevor My Lords We have not yet done with him the Question we would ask him is this whether he hath heard of any money that was gathered in Ireland for the support of this Plot Lord High Stew. The Question asked of you have you heard of any money gathered in Ireland for the support of this Plot Mr. Dennis I have both heard and seen of it Lord High Steward When and where Mr. Dennis My Lords in the year 68. I entred into the Order of the Dominicans in Ireland and in the same year there arrived at Dublin a Franciscan Fryer Brother to the late Earl of Carlingford and arriving there he made several Collectors for the levying a competent sum of money out of every Convent and Religious House My Lords the Collectors were by name John Reynolds alias Landy and John Berne and arriving at the County of Sligoe in the month of May. Lord High Stew. What year Mr. Dennis 68. And
the business was reconciled by one Seignior Con who came over into England in the year 76. to reconcile the great Difference that was betwixt the Jesuits and the secular Clergy and between the Benedictine Monks and the Jesuits My Lords my Lord Stafford upon the perswasion of this Seignior Con as he does intimate in his letter does assure the Jesuits of his fidelity and his zeal My Lords in the year 78. I found letters from my Lord Stafford wherein he does blame Mr. Coleman's openness and his being too publick in the great Affair and that Mr. Coleman was pleased to communicate several great secrets to men of whose Fidelity his Lordship was not secure My Lords in the year 78. in the month of June my Lord Stafford the Prisoner at the Bar came to Mr. Fenwick and there received a Commission from him to pay an Army that was to be raised for the promoting of the Catholick Interest and he did assure Mr. Fenwick that he was going down into Staffordshire and there he did not question but he should have a good account how the Catholicks stood affected and he did not question but to give a good account how Affairs stood in Staffordshire Shropshire and Lancashire and this Commission to my Lord Stafford was as neer as I can remember to be Pay-Master-General of the Army My Lords among other Discourses with my Lord at the Bar he was discoursing about my Lord Duke of Norfolk and my Lord Arundel his Son and after several other passages he Fenwick was asking of him how my Lord Arundel came to have a Jesuit in his House My Lord Stafford did say that my Lord of Peterborough his Father in Law was instrumental in it on purpose to oblige the Duke of York for my Lord Arundel as I have been told kept Father Symonds in his House who to my knowledge was a Jesuit But my Lords he came to Mr. Fenwicks my Lord Stafford did by the name of Mr. Howard of Effingham L. H. Steward Were you at Fenwicks when my Lord Stafford came to his Chamber Dr. Oats Yes my Lords L. H. Steward Look upon my Lord Stafford is that the same Person Dr. Oats It is the same Gentleman that came there by the name of Howard of Effingham L. H. Steward And he took the Commission Dr. Oats Yes he did so L. H. Steward And he promised to effect it Dr. Oats Yes And he said that he was then going down into the Countrey and he did not doubt but at his return Grove should do the business L. H. Steward Who said so Fenwick Dr. Oats No my Lord Stafford And says Fenwick to my Lord Stafford again Sir â—tis fit that some should be here present least you fail of your Expectation or to that purpose 'T is two years since and I cannot remember the words but my Lord Stafford did say he was of necessity to go into the Country at that time And there he did write a letter to St. Omers in which he did excuse himself about a young man that was to be sent to the Jesuits Colledge whom he had taken care of another way And he desired their excuse but he would be as faithful to them as any body for all that And the same hand that wrote that letter by all the comparing I could make in my thoughts wrote all the other Letters that I saw at St. Omers and in Spain My Lords I saw my Lord Stafford at Dr. Perrotts I think verily it was in June or July 78. it was before the rising of the Parliament that sat that Summer and my Lord Stafford was discoursing of a Son he was to send over to Lisbon and he went over by the name of Sir John Stafford And after this Discourse was over they fell into a Discourse of the Affairs in hand and my Lord was mighty glad there was so good a Correspondence and Concord though my Lords it was not very great for the Jesuits have an irreconcileable Quarrel with the rest of the Clergy But my Lord did hope that their fair Correspondence might tend highly to the advancing the Catholick Cause But my Lords I have one thing more to speak as to the Discourse at Fenwicks Chamber speaking of the King he said He hath deceived us a great while and we can bear no longer Lord High Stew. Who said so Dr. Oats My Lord Stafford the Gentleman at the Bar. Lord High Stew. When was that At Dr. Perrotts Dr. Oats No I speak of a passage at Fenwick's which I had forgot My Lords this is all I can remember at present M. Foley My Lords I desire he may give an Account what letters my Lord Stafford sent to Fenwick and Ireland to pay money Dr. Oats There was some money returned but it was no great Sum and it was about private business Mr. Morgan was to receive it I chanced to have the money in my own keeping Mr. Fenwick gave it me to pay to Mr. Morgan and the letter in which the Sum was mentioned did give them an Account for it was out of Staffordshire that he found things stand in a very good state there but I being not within Mr. Morgan called on Mr. Fenwick for the money which I returned to him when he had paid it Lord Stafford My Lords I do in the first place desire to know where Mr. Fenwick lived Lord High Stew. Where did Mr. Fenwick live when you saw my Lord at his Chamber and the Commission delivered Dr. Oats His Lordship I suppose knows very well where he lived he lived in Drury-lane Lord Stafford I will submit to any thing if I ever saw the man or heard of him till the Discovery of the Plot. Dr. Oats He came to him by the name of Thompson Lord High Stew. Your Lordship does not observe your Lordship says that you never knew any Fenwick but your Lordship knew one Thompson and that Thompson was Fenwick Lord Stafford I did know one Thompson but that Thompson I knew was an â—nglish Merchant in Brussels and not a Jesuit Dr. Oats I can't say what my Lord knows that he knew Fenwick to be a Jesuit but he knew one Thompson that was Fenwick the Jesuit Lord Stafford I never heard of the Name till this Plot. Dr. Oats But if your Lordships please I will give you a reason why I believe he knew him to be a Jesuit because the Society was very often in their mouths in their Discourses which gives me a ground to believe he knew him to be what he was but my Lord he took his Commission from him Lord Stafford I desire he may be asked L. H. Steward Good my Lord raise your voice for I am come half way to hear you Lord Stafford Pray my Lords give me leave to ask him whether Dr. Oats hath not said several times since I was first imprisoned that he never saw me in his life I think I was imprisoned the 21. of October 78. Dr. Oats I never said any such thing
Oates to produce it but yet in point of Evidence if he will not swear it to be a true Copy or give an account how he came by it we cannot allow it to be read L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford 'T is you that want this Paper you desire to have the benefit of the Examination that was taken of Mr. Oates and therefore you must produce a Copy of it Lord Stafford My Lords I could never get it L. H. Stew. 'T is not entred in our Journal nor is it to be traced we know not where it is You have had time enough to look after it You are now offered by Oates himself a Copy that was given him for a true Copy though he can't swear by whom Are you content that shall be read if the Gentlemen will admit it Lord Stafford By what I guess of Dr. Oates I know him not he would not give in a Copy of an Examination unless it were true if it be true I know not what should hinder the reading of it but as far as concerns me I desire it may be read L. H. Stew. You do Consent and will you Gentlemen permit it Mr. Serjeant Maynard We do not know whence it comes we can't admit it unless Oates says 't is true Sir William Jones My Lords it hath been long in the Doctors possession he hath read it over he can't say 't is a true Copy but I desire to ask him whether all in that writing be true and whether he did swear what is in that writing L. H. Stew. If your Lordships please thus and you Gentlemen of the House of Commons The best way to have an answer to this Question is that it may be read de bene esse Sir Fran. Winn. Pray my Lords let him read it over to himself privately and then let us know whether he can swear the same things that are in that Paper which Dr. Oates began to do Dr. Oats Your Lordships ask only as to my Lord Stafford L. H. Stew. My Lord desires no more but pray read it over all and give your Answer to all for that Question may be will be asked in other Cases and 't is fit you should be provided for it which he did L. H. Stew. What say you Doctor Dr. Oats My Lords I do verily believe I did swear the Contents of that Paper L. Stafford My Lords I do not oppose the reading of that Paper but I have here a Copy of something in the Journal and do not stand upon my memory but I think upon the viewing of it now there is something in the Copies of the Journal Clerks We cannot find it L. Stafford Then read this Paper L. H. Steward Will you have this Copy of the Examination read or not L. Stafford Yes my Lords Clerk The Examination of Titus Oats Clerk taken before us L. H. Stew. When was that Clerk The 24. of October 1678. L. H. Steward That was read the 25. the next day in the House of Lords The Examination of Titus Oats Clerk taken by us the 24. of October 1678. THis Examinant saith That in the Month of May last this Examinant saw a Patent under the Seal of the Father general of the Society of Jesus at Rome called Johannes Paulus Oliva at the Chamber of Mr. Langhorn wherein it was expressed That by vertue of a Breve from the Pope he did Constitute the Lord Arundel of Wardour Lord High Chancellor of England which Patent was sent to the Lord Arundel of Wardour by a Messenger who was the Son of Mr. Langhorn And this Examinant saith That he saw a Letter subscribed by the Lord Arundell of Wardour as he believes wherein the Lord Arundel did acknowledge the receipt of the said Patent and accepted of the same and promised to answer the expectation of the Society This Examinant saith That in June last he saw the like Patent wherein the Lord Powis was Constituted Lord Treasurer of England which Patent was carried by one Parsons Secretary to the Lord Powis from one Saunders House in Wild-street to be delivered to the Lord Powis and at the delivery of the Patent 3001 was paid by Parsons to Fenwick and Ireland to carry on the design of the Jesuits which was to raise a Rebellion in the three Kingdoms and to destroy the King In the Month of July this Examinant saw a Letter subscribed Powis and directed to Fenwick wherein his Lordship did acknowledge the receipt of the said Patent and did accept of the same and said he had 300 Men and Horse ready for the Design and that his Lordship would venture his life and fortune in the Affair In the month of August last this Examinant saw a Letter directed to Mr. Langhorn by the outside but within to the Society of the Jesuits wherein Sir William Godolphin acknowledged he had received the like Patent to be Lord Privy Seal and had accepted thereof and in July 1677. this Examinant saw the same in the hands of the Archbishop of Tuam at Madrid in Spain This Examinant saith that in July last Mr. Coleman ackowledged and confessed to Fenwick in this Examinants presence that he had received the like Patent to be Secretary of State and that it was a good exchange This Examinant saith that in May June July and August last this Examinant saw several Letters signed Stafford whereby it appeared that the Lord Stafford was in this Conspiracy against His Majesty and that he had returned several Sums of Mony to the Jesuits to carry on the Design the Letters were directed to Fenwick and Ireland and in August last this Examinant saw another Letter directed to the same persons signed Stafford wherein my Lord writ that although he had sent his Son to Lisbon yet he would be ne'r the worse friend to the Jesuits and this Examinant conceiveth the Reason of that Letter was because there was then a difference between the English Colledge at Lisbon and the Jesuits in July last this Examinant saw in the hands of Fenwick a Commission directed to the Lord Bellasis from the person aforesaid to be Lord General of the Army to be raised in England against His Majesty and in July this Examinant saw a Letter from my Lord directed to Fenwick wherein his Lordship acknowledged the receipt of the Commission and thanked the Society for the same and that he accepted the same and would do what in him lay to answer their expectations In May last this Examminant saw a Patent in the hands of Mr. Langhorn to make my Lord Petres Lieutenant-General of the Army and in June last this Examinant did hear my Lord Petres in the presence of Mr. Longworth his Confessor acknowledge the receipt of the same and that he accepted thereof and his Confessor wished him much joy thereof Lord Stafford My Lords if this be owned for truth that he swore then I proceed upon the Evidence of that L. H. Stew. Without allowing it to be a true Copy Dr. Oats at
the Bar does swear what is said there is true Lord Stafford Then he says there he saw Letters signed by me to Fenwick and others I do humbly desire to know whether that be Evidence or no that a man says he saw Letters and does not say he knew them to be my hand nor what the Letters were in particular nothing that he did prove of it I must appeal to your Lordships to all my Lords to my Lord High Steward and the rest that were of the Council at that time whether Dr. Oats did not positively name some and left ne out at the Council Table And whether Dr. Oats did not say there was no Lord concerned in the Plot and whether some of my Lords did not say so and told some other Lords of it from whom I had it And in order to this desire Sir Philip Lloyd may be examined and if he did not know of my being in it then he hath since forsworn himself L. H. Stew. My Lord I know not where you are nor what you are about are you objecting against Oats upon any Evidence out of the Journal Lord Stafford My Lords I go upon this that hath been read L. H. Stew. Pray my Lord produce your Witnesses that did hear him say any thing and take your advantage of it Lord Stafford I call Sir Philip Lloyd L. H. Stew. Where is Sir Philip Lloyd L. Stafford My Lords I do not know I think he is here I hope he will come Then he appeared amongst the Members of the House of Commons and was called to the Bar amongst the other Witnesses and stood up L. H. Stew. What does your Lordship ask Sir Philip Lloyd L. Staff Whether he was not by when Dr. Oats was asked if there were any Lords concerned in the Plot and he said no and whether he did not tell me so a day or two before I was committed in the Pâ—inces Lodgings L. H. Stew. What say you Sir Philip â—loyd did you ever hear Dr. Oats deny upon his Oath that ever he heard of any Lords that were concerned in the Plot Sir Philip Lloyd My Lords Truly I cannot remember any such thing If my Lord put me in mind of any particular Circumstance or time I may recollect it I must confess I think I have heard such a thing rumor'd but I am so unfortunate I cannot remember any thing positively of it L. Stafford He did tell me so I am sure Sir Philip Lloyd Truly my Lords I would be glad to remember any thing to justifie the Truth but I can't remember this L. Stafford But whether it were so or no your Lordships that were of the Council can tell L. H. Steward My Lord I do not know Your Lordship cannot be refused if you press it to ask any of the Lords of the Council if they remember any such thing that did pass there but if I were there or in the Council I deal plainly with your Lordship I cannot say that there was any such thing said L. Stafford If there be any here that were there besides I desire they may be asked L. H. Stew. If your Lordship will call upon any other of my Lords that were there they will tell you Lord Stafford I do not know who were there I can't call them L. H. Stew. You may ask any of the Lords of the Council who were there that time Dr. Oats was examined Lord Marquess of Worcester My Lords I was not at the Council then but I heard it not there indeed but as a general Report abroad L. Stafford I desire my Lord Privy Seal may tell what he knows of it Lord Privy Seal What is it your Lordship would know of me L. Stafford Whether Oats did not say he had no more to accuse Lord Privy Seal Where my Lord L. Stafford At the Council Table Lord Privy Seal 'T is a very hard thing for me to charge my memory with all the Questions at an Examination we use to refer to the Examinations themselves I have seen some Examinations I wish all were so wherein the Questions are put down as well as the Answers and I cannot charge my memory that he said he had no more to accuse L. Staff I desire then all the Lords of the Council that are here to say whether or no he was not asked this Question particularly by my Lord Chancellor and I desire particularly his Lordship would say whether he can't remember it whether he had any thing to say against some Lords and he answered they were to know of it but God forbid he should accuse them L. H. Stew. When should that be L. Stafford My Lords I can't say the day for I was not in Town But I desire to ask whether you did not ask him upon the first Discovery of the Plot whether he had any thing to say against some Lords L. H. Stew. Do you desire to know whether I asked him this Question if he had any thing to say against some Lords L. Stafford I do not say positively your Lordship but whether that Question was not asked him L. H. Stew. Certainly I should never ask any such Question of any man alive I might ask in general of any Lord but not of some L. Stafford Some or other Lords it was L. H. Steward I don't remember it and 't is impossible for any man living to remember what Questions he did ask two or three years ago upon an Examination L. Stafford I desire I may have leave to ask the Earl of Berkley a Question L. H. Steward What is it you would ask him L. Stafford My Lords I humbly ask his Lordship whether he did not hear Dr. Oats say after he had accused some persons before the Council that he had no more to accuse Earl of Berkley My Lords I had the Honour to be of the Privy Council about the time of the Discovery of the Plot but I do not remember that I heard Dr. Oats say any such thing there L. Staff Or in the House of Lords for I may mistake And therefore I desire my Lord of Berkley would declare what he heard Dr. Oats say before the House of Lords Earl of Berkley Yes my Lords in the Lords House I will tell your Lordships what I remember My Lord Chancellor to the best of my remembrance did ask Dr. Oats at the Bar of the House this Question My Lords desire to know if you can accuse any other Person or Persons of what Quality soever and you are incouraged by their Lordships to Accuse them His Answer was My Lords I have no more to accuse in relation to England but in relation to Ireland I have L. H. Steward That was after he had accused your Lordship my Lord Stafford Sir W. Jones We pray my Lords we may have the favour to ask that very Honourable Lord at what time Dr. Oats said this for the satisfaction of those that are present Earl of Berkley My Lords it was after Dr. Oats had accused my
Lord Stafford but before he had accused the Queen L. Stafford I beseech you my Lords to mark it and I am very glad of it he said he had no more to accuse in relation to England and yet after that he accused the Queen L. H. Stew. My Lord then the best account of it will be on the Journal the Question and Answer is entred there Die Jovis 31. die Octobr. 1678. Post Meridiem TItus Oats being at the Bar is directed to proceed in giving an Account of the Commissions given to several Lords and other Persons for Offices Civil and Military Upon which he proceeded in a particular Narrative thereof with some Circumstances tending to make out the truth thereof and then was commanded to withdraw but stay without Then upon Consideration had hereof the Lord Chancellor by directions of the House caused him to be called in again and told him that the Lords expect not his entring into particular Circumstances but if there be particular Persons concerned of what Quality soever they be the House expected he should name them but he named none but those he had mentioned in his Narrative nor could name no other Person Lord Stafford Then my Lords he said He knew no Persons more than he he had discovered and after did he not accuse the Queen and several others if he said true then he knew no body more if not he is Forsworn Sir VVill. Jones Pray prove he did Accuse the Queen L. Stafford He did so in the Council and he is clearly Perjured in that and so not to be believed And I say besides after that Dr. Oats had consulted with himself and possibly with some others what his Narrative should be and what he should accuse Persons of and did only accuse me of seeing some Letters signed Stafford and now he comes to give Evidence he knows more of my having a Commission After this rate it may be he may know a great deal more to morrow when he hath invented it And 't is a great sign he did not know of any more if he did know of that for I never had any Correspondence with the Jesuits nor any business transacted with them these twenty four or twenty five years Indeed at Ghent the English Jesuits were desired to do a little thing for me and they refused it me it was to send over a man that was to be a Witness in a Suit I had beyond Sea And I never writ one Letter to a Jesuit since nor he to me that I know of nor never had to do with them that I know of I never heard of Fenwicks Name nor Harcourts till I heard of the Plot nor of Johnson nor Thompson Jesuits and if any can prove it I will acknowledge my self guilty of all that is said against me And for that Dr. Oats at first said He only saw Letters of mine and after comes and accuses me of a Commission I appeal to your Lordships if there can be any truth or belief in him I cannot say more than what I have said already and I do challenge Dr. Oats at the day of Judgment to say if ever he saw me in his life till I was committed or if I did ever go by any Name but that of Stafford I will be content to dye immediately If I had gone by the Name of Howard I need not be ashamed of it for 't is a Name good enough to be owned I know there is a worthy Gentleman that bears the Name of Howard of Effingham but I never did If your Lordships please to let me ask Mr. Dugdale one Question L. H. Stew. Call Dugdale again who appeared What say you to him my Lord L. Stafford I desire to ask Dugdale whether he did not in his Depositions before Mr. Lane and Mr. Vernon swear that the 20 th of October I offered him 500 l. to kill the King Mr. Dugdale No September L. Stafford Ay September Mr. Dugdale Yes I think I did make that Deposition before Captain Lane I am certain I did that my Lord Stafford the 20 th or 21 th of September offered me 500 l. L. Stafford Then did not he say presently upon this he went to Mr. Evers Chamber L. H. Stew. He says so now Mr. Dugdale My Lords I am not certain it was the same day it was assoon as I could have opportunity it was presently after Lord Stafford Did he not say he told Erers what I said to him and he did not understand the meaning of it Mr. Dugdale I did say so to Mr. Evers I did ask Mr. Evers what my Lord Stafford's meaning was whether his intention was true or no to do as he said and whether my Lord was in that Condition as to be able to perform his promise for I feared payment of the mony and he told me Harcourt and the rest of the Jesuits would furnish it L. H. Steward So he said Yesterday L. Staff Then ask him if he did not say the beginning of September I met him at Tixal and I spake to him about such a business Mr. Dugdale My Lords I did say to the best of my Remembrance it was about that time the latter end of August or the beginning of September I would not be positive nor could not to five days Lord Stafford No I think not to 5000. Then I askt him this Question whether he did not presently upon that when I told him about the Design go to Mr. Evers and ask what it meant L. H. Steward He said so but now he went to Evers and asked what you meant L. Stafford I beseech you I may be understood whether he did not say in the beginning of September which was before the 20. or 21. in the Journal L. H. Stew. Is it in the Journal L. Stafford Yes L. H. Stew. Why then read it Die Sabbati 28. Decembris 1678. The Earl of Essex acquainted the House that he had received an Information out of the Countrey of very great Concernment which was read as followeth Staffordsh December 24th 1678. The Information of Stephen Dugdale Gent. late servant to the Lord Aston of Tixal concerning the Plot against our Soveraign Lord the King as followeth 1. THis Informant saith that presently after one Howard Almoner to the Queen went beyond the Seas he was told by George Hobson Servant to the said Lord Aston that there was a Design then intended for the Reformation of the Government to the Romish Religion 2. He informeth that in the beginning of September 1678. he met in Tixal nigh the Lord's Gates the Lord Stafford who said to this Informant it was said that they were troubled for that they could no say their Prayers but in a hid manner but suddenly there would be a Reformation to the Romish Religion and if there was but a good Success they should enjoy their Religion And upon the 20 th day of September last the said Lord Stafford told this Informant that there was a Design in hand and
and some years since and was the great Confident of the said Lady and the said Remige was for the most part taken with her Ladyship into Morgan's Chamber when the Consults were held there where he hath often seen Father Gavan Father Towers Father Evans Father Sylliard Roberts White Owens Barry and the Earl of Castlemain and other Priests and Jesuits meet and shut themselves up in the said Morgan's Chamber sometimes for an Hour sometimes for two Hours more or less and at the breaking up of the said Consults have broke out into an extasie of joy saying They hoped ere long the Catholick Religion would be established in England and that they did not doubt to bring about their Design notwithstanding they had met with one great Disappointment which was the Peace struck up with Holland saying that if the Army at Blackheath had been sent into Holland to assist the French King when he was with his Army near Amsterdam Holland had certainly been conquered and then the French King would have been able to assist us with an Army to establish Religion in England Which expressions with many others importing their confidence to set up the Romish Religion they frequently communicated to this Informant And the said Morgan went several times into Ireland to London and several other parts of England as this Informant hath just cause to believe to give and take measures for carrying on the Design and the said Remige and her Husband having first clandestinely sold their Estate and fled into France about May or June last for fear of discovery This Informant by many Circumstances being assured that the said Mrs. Remige was privy to all or most of the Transactions of the Plot. And he saith that about May last was two Years he was present at Mass with the Lord Powis in Verestreet when the Earl of Castlemain did say Mass in his Priestly Habit after the Rites and Ceremonies of the Church of Rome EDWARD TVRBERVILL Sworn the 9th day of November 1680. before Thomas Stringer William Poulteny Edmund Warcupp L. H. Steward My Lord this Affidavit is to the purpose to which you call for it this does say that your Lordship did go by the way of Calice it does absolutely so L. Stafford Now whether he be forsworn or no your Lordships may judge by these three Witnesses Mr. Turbervill My Lords that which I grounded my belief of his going to Calice upon and so consequently that Affidavit was the Letter which I received from my Lord which I have looked for but cannot find L. H. Stew. This Affidavit does not say you went from Calice to England but you went with Count Gramont to Calice L. Stafford I conceive my Lords this Affidavit and his Narrative are word for word the same only that Amendment of 72 for 73 upon which I observed before he was forsworn once I cannot tell what to say if this man can be believed And Count Gramont came by Diep too but besides my Lords in this Affidavit he does not say he believed so by the Letter tho' now he speaks of one L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford was Count Gramont in your Lordships company when you came to Diep L. Stafford No my Lords he was in England before me a month but my Lords I cannot deny but I had one recommended to come over with me that pretended himself to be a French Count but the man was as errant a Rascal as this that swears against me and that was one that called himself Count de Brienne whom all the world knows to be a Cheat. L. H. Stew. Call your other Witnesses my Lord. L. Stafford Where is John Minhead Who stood up L. H. Steward Who do you belong to Minhead My Lord Powis L. Stafford My Lords Mr. Turbervill he says by the persuasion of my Lady Powis went to Doway and he staid in the Monastery three weeks and not liking that life he came away this may be true I say nothing to it But that which I take Exception at is this He says for this the Earl of Powis and his Lady when he came back from Doway were very angry with him and so were all his Relations and he stood in fear of his life from them Surely when Mr. Turbervill knew he was in such danger he would not have come near them Pray ask this Gentleman whether he was at my Lord Powis's and how he was entertained L. H. Steward Do you know Turbervill Minhead Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. Have you seen him at my Lord Powis's Minhead Yes my Lords L. H. Stew How was he received there Minhead Very well my Lords L. H. Stew When was that Minhead In the year 75. L. H. Stew. Was that before or after he came back to England Minhead It was after he came from Doway L. H. Stew. What Country man are you Minhead A French man L. H. Stew. What Religion are you of Minhead A Roman Catholick L. Stafford Pray ask him whether he lay in my Lords house Minhead Yes my Lords he lay with me in my lodgings L. Stafford And yet he says he was afraid of his life L. H. Stew. Did my Lord know he lay there Minhead Yes he must needs because he came through the Room to go to Bed L. Stafford May it please your Lordships he says he was threatned that he should have his Brother disinherit him and which afterwards was compassed Now I shall shew that this is impossible for he had no Inheritance to lose nor was to have none for his Brother who is elder than he this man being by a second Venter hath Children as I shall make appear by another of his Brothers who is here And this not being settled upon him who was by the second Venter could not come to him but for want of Issue of that Brother must go to the Uncle So he swears he was disinherited of an Estate when he was to have no Estate nor could have Call Mr. John Turbervill who appeared My Lords I desire you to ask him whether he knew that upon his coming back to England he was ill used Mr. J. Turbervill I never knew any unkindness from my elder Brother to him L. H. Stew. Are you his Brother Mr. J. Turbervill Yes my Lords by the Father not by the Mother L. H. Stew. Well what can you say Mr. J. Turbervill I never heard any thing when he returned from Doway that he was ill received by my Lord Powis but in a few days after my Brother and Sister came to Town we went to Bloomesbury and there we met together and my Brother complaining that he was unfortunate in that he had undertaken what he could not perform in going beyond Sea and now wanted a Livelihood my eldest Brother told him he had done as far as his Ability was he could do no more it was his own Choice and he had no more to say L. Staff Had he any money from his Relations Mr. J. Turbervill He
you could give an account of every day Lydcot I did not think any Question of this Nature would come on the stage there is my Lords Steward can give a very good account of this by his Account Books which are all ready to be produced he can tell where my Lord was by laying out such and such moneys And 't is an hard thing to give a Testimony after so many years of a thing that we thought not would ever be a Question L. H. Steward Let us see your Notes Lydcot My Lords I will read it to your Lordships L. H. Steward When was this written Lydcot I took this out of another Book L. H. Steward When Lydcot Lately since Mr. Turbervill's Narrative came out Sir Will. Jones Oh I desire that may be observed L. Stafford If your Lordships please I desire that he may bring his Books Oh oh will not condemn me but Law and Justice I am not to be run down with Oh oh or what such impudent Villains as these say L. H. Stew. Read what you have there Lydcot From Liege we set forth to Paris January 1. 72. where we staid three weeks and arrived thence at London January 24. there we staid till May 73. and from thence we went to Liege again in June and from Liege we set forth to London in August and returned October the 3d. 73. L. H. Stew. Were you all the while between August and October in London Lydcot I am morally certain that I did not go from my Lord all that time L. H. Stew. Where were you after October Lydcot Which October if your Lordship please L. H. Stew. October 73. Lydcot At Liege for we returned to Liege at October the 3d. and then after this my Lord sent me into England I left him at Liege and from thence I set out for England and in January I returned to Liege which was the greatest part of time that I was ever absent from him L. H. Stew. And was he at Liege are you sure all that time from October to January Lydcot Yes except he fled For I sent Letters by the Foreign Post and received Letters by the Foreign Post every week And his Account-Books will speak it Sir W. Jones My Lords we desire to ask him one Question since he can give so exact an account whether my Lord Castlemain was in England 72 and how much of that year Lydcot Yes Sir W. Jones How many months of the year 72 was he in England Lydcot I read it before We arrived from Liege to London January 24. 72. and staid at London till May 73. L. H. Stew. But where was my Lord all the year 72 Lydcot Pray my Lords do you mean New stile or Old stile L. H. Steward When I speak of his being at London I mean the stile of the Countrey Sir William Jones Then under favour he speaks of the latter part of the year I desire to know whether my Lord for all the former part of the year was in England L. H. Stew. Where was my Lord in December 72. and in November before that and in all the year up backwards Lydcot My Lords I have told you the whole year L. H. Steward But where was my Lord from January 71. to January 72 Lydcot In 71. June 19. New stile we came to London and returned in September to Liege from Liege we set forth to Paris January 1. 72. and arrived at London January 24. L. H. Stew. He runs past the time Sir Will. Jones My Lords we ask him a plain Question but he does not answer it he slips over the time that we desire your Lordships to ask him about L. Stafford I beseech your Lordships that it may be made plain that there may nothing be said afterwards that it was not plain Lydcot Sir Do you propose any thing to me and I will answer it Sir Will. Jones Answer not us answer my Lords Lydcot I desire any body may peruse my Notes if they please L. H. Stew. Pray Sir answer the Question whichin very short terms is this where my Lord Castlemain was all the whole year 72. Lydcot Well my Lords I will I can but read it over again From Liege we set forth to Paris January 1. 72. L. H. Stew. Are not you a rare Fellow now Lydcot My Lords I understand it according to the stile of that Country when I am there and of this place when I am here L. H. Stew. Answer me according to our stile Lydcot This that I have written here in the Book out of which I took it hath been written ever since that time and I did not think I should er'e be called to account about it L. H. Stew. Begin January the 1st 71. Lydcot We went from Liege to Paris where we staid about a week or such a time and we arrived at London January 24. that is the Old stile and staid at London till May 8. 73. L. H. Stew. That is impossible for you ' scape a year and a half to together Lydcot My Lord was here in England in January L. H. Stew. You begin very gravely with January stylo veteri that you came from Liege and so January 24. stylo veteri you came to London Lydcot When I speak of any style I understand it according to the style of the Country L. H. Stew. But in your account what is become of all the time from January 71. to January 72. say and swear if you can where my Lord was all that time Lydcot He must be in London L. H. Stew. Can you take it upon your Oath that my Lord was in London from January 71. stylo veteri to May 73. stylo veteri Lydcot I cannot know how to count better than I have done L. Stafford Mr. Turbervill says my Lord Castlemain was in 73. at Powis-Castle I beseech your Lordships this man may be asked and that without any interruption where my Lord was that year Sir Will. Jones With your Lordships favour I must desire your Lordships to ask Mr. Turbervill whether he did say positively the year â—3 for if my Ears and my Notes do not fail me he said As he remembred and that is the reason why we ask about the year 72. Mr. Turbervill My Lords I do not say positively nor cannot which year it was Lydcot My Lords I do stand upon it that he was in London January 72. and went away May 73. L. H. Stew. What becomes of the mean time between January 71. and May 73 Lydcot My Lords I explain my self as well as I can L. H. Stew My Lord Stafford will you call any more Witnesses L. Stafford Yes my Lord. L. H. Stew. Call them then Earl of Shaftsbury My Lord High Steward I desire my Lord Stafford may be asked how many Witnesses my Lord hath more for it now grows late L. H. Steward My Lord I desire to know how many Witnesses you have more L. Stafford Three or four I can't well tell how many Lords Adjourn Adjourn
the least concerned of any I thought and I hoped it would prove so I can take all the Oaths in the world I said no more L. H. Stew. What else do you know Porter Only such things as these he hath often said Earl of Shaftsbury Pray my Lords ask him how came Turbervill to talk of Witnesses about the Plot. L. H. Stew. Upon what occasion came Turbervill to talk of these matters Porter It was only voluntary of himself it was speaking of my Lord Powis and the rest of the Lords in the Tower Earl of Shaftsbury My Lords I mean of his own being a Witness L. H. Stew. How came Turbervill to say he hoped God Almighty would never forsake him so far as to let him swear against innocent Persons he was never called to be a Witness Porter But my Lords some of his Friends did say they were fearful of him in regard he was reduced to poverty His Friends were fearful L. H. Stew. Who were fearful Porter His Brother and Sister Mr. Turbervill and his Wife L. H. Steward Did he take notice to you that they were afraid he would come in Porter Yes Mr. Turbervill did tell me himself that they heard he would come in L. H. Stew. Have you said all you have to say Porter My Lords that is all I have to say L. H. Stew. Then call another my Lord. L. Stafford Where is Mr. Yalden Who stood up L. H. Steward What is your Name Witness Yalden L. H. Stew. Your Christian Name Witness John L. H. Stew. What is your Profession Yalden A Barrester at Law L. H. Stew. How long have you been called to the Bar Yalden I was called to the Bar last Trinity Term 12 months L. H. Stew. What House are you of Yalden Grays-Inn L. H. Stew. Are you a Practiser Yalden Yes my Lords L. H. Steward What Religion are you of Yalden Of the Church of England L. H. Steward Well what can you say Yalden I am summoned to appear by Order of this House and I desire to know of my Lord what he is pleased to examine me about L. Staff What Mr. Turbervill hath said in his hearing about the Plot. L. H. Stew. What Discourse hath passed between you and Turbervill about the Plot Yalden My Lords in February or March last I was walking in Grays-Inn-Walks with Mr. Turbervill and Mr. Powell and he dined with me a day or two after and there Mr. Turbervill and I were talking of the Distractions of the Times how Trade was ruined how the whole Kingdom was out of order and he was a little touched at some things and cryed out Go Dam me now there is no Trade good but that of a Discoverer but the Devil take the Duke of York Monmouth Plot and all for I know nothing of it L. H. Stew. That is odd that he should say it was a good Trade to be a Discoverer and at the same time say he knew nothing of the Plot. Yalden This I understood to be his meaning he cursed himself and them because he knew nothing of the Plot to discover for he would have got money by it as I understood as well as others Mr. Turbervill My Lords Mr. Yalden did declare yesterday he was summoned in by my Lord Stafford the last night and that he had nothing to say but what was by Hear say Mr. Yalden My Lords I do declare what I say is true and yesterday Mr. Powell gave me a Caution to take heed what I did and swore by God it would else be the worse for me L. H. Steward Who did Yalden Mr. Powell L. H. Steward Who is that Yalden Mr. Turbervill's Friend And I said I do not appear here as a voluntary Evidence but by an Order of the House of Lords I do not know what weight my Evidence may have for I can say nothing but what I heard him say and so perhaps it will be taken but for an Hear-say Mr. Turbervill You said you knew nothing but by Hear-say L. H. Stew. Will you ask him any Questions Gentlemen Managers No my Lords L. Stafford My Lords I shall not trouble your Lordships with any more Witnesses as to these Points I have here a Copy of the Warrant for the Yaught to go to Diep and if there be any Question whether I did come over from Diep at Christmas 75. if you please the Book may be searched L. H. Stew. My Lord it is all lost for I hear not one word L. Stafford I say my Lords if it be fit to trouble your Lordships with it I can prove that I did come over in the Yaught from Diep at Christmas 75. Here is the Copy of the Warrant for it to go for me And whether you will have it proved that I did come over thence I submit to you L. H. Steward I suppose that is fully proved already that you did come by Diep Managers We do not deny it L. H. Stew. You do not stand upon it Gentlemen do you Managers No no my Lords L. H. Stew. 'T is admitted to you my Lord. L. Stafford My Lords when I went from your Lordships Bar last night I had no thoughts of examining any Witnesss but what I have already done But my Lords since I was here there hath something happened about which I desire Dr. Oats may be called again I shall give you the reason why I move it afterwards upon something I heard yesternight L. H. Stew. Call Dr. Oats again Who appeared and stood up L. H. Steward My Lord what does your Lordship call him for L. Stafford He did say that he being a Minister of the Church of England did seemingly go over to the Church of Rome or some such words I desire he may answer that first L. H. Steward What say you Dr. Oats Yes I did say I did but seemingly go over L. Stafford I desire to know whether he was really a Papist or did but pretend Dr. Oats I did only pretend I was not really one I declare it L. H. Stew. What do you make of that L. Stafford I desire to know how long Dr. Oats was in Spain Dr. Oats My Lords I came into Spain in May and I came home again in November L. H. Steward That is six months L. Stafford He is called Dr. Oats I beseech your Lordships to ask him whether he were a Doctor made at the Universities here or abroad Dr. Oats My Lords if your Lordships please any matter that is before your Lordships I will answer to it but I hope your Lordships will not call me to account for all the Actions of my life whatever Evidence is before your Lordships I will justifie L. H. Stew. The Doctor hath never taken it upon his Oath that he was a Doctor and why do you ask it L. Stafford He is called a Doctor and I would know whether he did never declare upon his Oath that he took the Degree at Salamanca Dr. Oats My Lords I am not ashamed of any thing I
for this is for January L. Stafford My Lords Is it your Lordships pleasure I may have Pen Ink and Paper allowed me L. H. Stew. Yes yes give my Lord Pen Ink and Paper which they did Then the Lord High Steward looked upon the Council-Book L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford In this Council-Book as far as we can inform our selves by the Table of it there is nothing at all of it it must be the Council-Book in September Sir Will. Jones We have no other Book but that L. H. Stew. Why did not your Lordship send all this while to the Council Table for any thing that was material but give the Court the trouble to be interrupted upon your Inquiries L. Stafford My Lords you may do what you please I did not know any such thing would have needed to be urged I have proof enough without the book The use I should have made of it is this I do appeal to some of your Lordships you that were of the Council I do appeal to which of you that were by whether Dr. Oats did not say at the Council Table he had been at Madrid he went from Vallidolid to Madrid and there did preach something at the Jesuits Colledge at Madrid what it was I cannot tell when Don John of Austria was by L. H. Stew. If any of my Lords of the Council do remember it they may Testifie L. Privy Seal My Lords I shall tell your Lordships as much as I remember of it Dr. Oats was examined about his Journey into Spain and amongst the rest some Question hapned to be asked whether he had seen Don John of Austria he said he had seen one that was called so that he knew him not but he was pointed to one that they said was Don John of Austria that I heard L. Stafford My Lord I thank you L. H. Stew. You hear what is said Dr. Oats Dr. Oats My Lords suppose I did say so I think there is no crime in it L. H. Stew. 'T is not objected against you as a Crime but as a mistake in your Oath there was no such man there L. Privy Seal My Lords I would not be misunderstood in the Evidence I give I did not say that Oats said he knew him but that he knew him not and only was told such a man was he Dr. Oats It was made apparent that I did not know him because I mistook his Person L. Stafford I do stand upon it That upon his Oath and I have reason to believe he did so because I am so informed he said it was Don John of Austria L. Privy Seal No my Lord Dr. Oats said he was a tall lean man and it seems he was a little fat man L. Stafford If any man would shew him a man to counterfeit Don John of Austria he would not shew him a lean man for a fat L. H. Stew. Go on my Lord. L. Stafford I shall now put your Lordships in mind that he swore but my Memory is bad and my Eyes much worse that he saw me receive a Commission and it seems he saw what it was too Now it is strange that amongst so many Commissions that were given none should be extant I desire him to shew the Commission he saw me receive L. H. Stew. Would your Lordship have him shew the Commissions which he saw you receive L. Stafford I do not believe he can shew my Commission for I am sure there was none I desire him to shew any one of my Letters he talks of He says he came over feigning to be a Papist when he was not and that they shewed him presently all my Letters and now he is come to discover the Plot I ask him did he keep any one of my Letters L. H. Stew. Have you any of any Lords Letters by you Dr. Oats My Lords I could not keep any Letters sent to the Fathers I had a fight of them but none of them to my particular use L. Stafford Does he know my Hand did he ever see it in his life Dr. Oats Yes I do know his Hand I believe I have a Letter of my Lords by me but not about me 't is of no Concern I 'm sure I have one of my Lord Arundel's L. Stafford But he says he hath a Letter of mine let him shew one of my Letters Dr. Oats He writes a mixt Hand I think 't is but an indifferent one L. Stafford So many Comissions and so many Letters as are spoken of and not one to be found or produced L. H. Stew. Can you send for the Letter Dr. Oats My Lords I am not certain of that L. H. Stew. Where did you see my Lord write Dr. Oats At Fenwick's my Lords when I carried the Letter to the Post L. Stafford How often hath he seen me at Fenwick's Dr. Oats My Lords not above twice if twice L. Stafford My Lords I cannot say I did not see him there but I can say I don't know the place nor that ever I was there Dr. Oats My Lords will his Lordship say I never saw him at Dr. Perrots L. Stafford Who Dr. Oats My Lord Stafford L. Stafford Where did he live Dr. Oats In Dukes-street going into Lincolns-Inn-Fields he is the Arch-Priest of the Seculars that is the Principal of the Secular Clergy and he hath the care of the English Colledge for the sending of Scholars to the Colledge Mr. Fisher my Lord Stafford and Dr. Perrot were together discoursing about sending his Son thither and Mr. Fisher would have one sent with him that was Dr. Perrot's Man L. Stafford I do profess before God I was never at Dr. Perrot's in my whole life L. H. Stew. Did not you send your Son abroad L. Stafford No my Lords not I. L. H. Stew. Had he a Servant at Dr. Perrot's to attend him Dr. Oats No my Lords not that I know of I cannot say he had not L. Stafford I tell you positively as I am a Christian my Lords I did not send my Son to Lisbon he went against my Will I told him I had an aversion to it but said I will not lay my Commands on you not to go but he would go I could not help it I told him Do you mean to go into the Colledge he would not tell me L. H. Stew. Pray my Lord does not your Lordship know Dr. Perrot Lord Stafford Yes my Lords I do L. Stafford Were you never with him at his House in Duke-street L. Stafford No my Lords never in my life nor saw that Fisher he speaks of ever in my life Dr. Oats My Lords 't is against the Rules of that House that any be admitted of that House if their Parents be Catholicks without consent of their Parents L. Stafford If he be admitted there I know it not Dr. Oats He lives there L. Stafford But I protest before God my Lords I asked him that Question Will you go to the Colledge No says he I will go to lie at the Bishops House but
matter mostly arising within my Lord Aston's Family and what Witnesses we shall have from thence your Lordships may easily imagine will not be very favourable to us and if we have not many to this point your Lordships will take into consideration that those who can give the fullest proof here must be those of the Family and the Religion of the Family But my Lords we will call one or two that I believe will give you satisfaction that my Lord the Prisoner was no such stranger to Mr. Dugdale that they have been seen together and alone together and that is the first thing we desire to call Witnesses to Call Mr. Ansell and William Hanson Mr. Hanson was sworn L. H. Steward Where do you live Whose Servant are you Mr. Hanson At Wilnal in Stafford shire L. H. Steward What do you ask him Sir Will. Jones I desire if you be satisfied where he lives that he will tell you whether he hath been at my Lord Aston's and seen my Lord Stafford there L. H. Steward Have you seen my Lord Stafford at my Lord Aston's Mr. Hanson Yes my Lords L. H. Steward When Mr. Hanson A little above two years ago L. Stafford Be pleased he may name the time positively Sir Will. Jones My Lord Stafford is not so well versed in prosecutions of this nature as to know that he is not to interrupt us while we are examining our Witnesses L. H. Steward My Lord your Lordship received no interruption nor must give none Sir Will. Jones My Lords we desire this Witness may be asked whether or no he hath seen Mr. Dugdale and my Lord Stafford at any time together L. H. Steward What say you Mr. Hanson Yes my Lords L. H. Steward When and where Mr. Hanson I cannot justly tell the time L. H. Stew. Can you tell the place Mr. Hanson Yes at my Lord Aston's L. H. Stew. Whereabouts Mr. Hanson In my Lord Aston's Parlour L. H. Stew. And were they alone Mr. Hanson Mr. Dugdale fetched me to my Lord Stafford L. H. Stew. And was no body in the Parlour when Dugdale fetched you to my Lord Mr. Hanson No my Lords I think there was not L. Stafford He thinks there was not Mr. Hanson There was not to my best remembrance Sir W. Jones My Lords will you be pleased to ask him the Occasion why Dugdale fetched him to him Mr. Hanson My Lord had a mind to have a Boy L. H. Stew. What was the occasion that Dugdale did come to fetch you to my Lord Stafford in the Parlour Mr. Hanson To bring the Boy my Lords Yong Hawkins Mr. Dugdale fetched me and the Boy to him it was a Boy that my Lord would have to live with him Sir Will. Jones Can you tell what time of the year it was whether Winter or Summer as near as you can L. H. Stew. Aye What time of the year was it Mr. Hanson Indeed my Lords I cannot tell Sir Will. Jones I desire to ask him whether when he went away he left them together L. H. Stew. Did you leave them together Mr. Hanson To my best remembrance my Lords I did The Boy and I went away together and we left them at my Lord Aston's Parlour-door Sir Will. Jones Call James Ansel L. H. Stew. Nay if you have done with him my Lord Stafford may ask him any Questions L. Stafford My Lords I shall tell you how this thing is There was a report that this Hawkins was a very good running Foot-boy and this was spoken of at my Lord Aston s at Dinner or Supper I don't know which nay severall times about that time it was when my Lord of Danby was Treasurer and his Son my Lord Dunblain was much for Foot-matches and I had a minde to have a Foot-boy to make a match with him and I believe Dugdale at Dinner or Supper did say that he was a good running Lad and I might desire to see him and Dugdale did bring him to me I believe into my Lord Aston's Parlour but there was at least six or seven in the Room besides L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford Was this at that time when your Lordship was at Tixal the 12 of September L. Stafford Pray my Lords I desire to ask him that Question I would know what year it was L. H. Stew. He says it was above two years ago L. Stafford I profess I believe it was one or two years before I was taxed with this Plot. I did never think I should be questioned about this or I could easily have brought witnesses that were by at that time It is true he did come to me but pray what time of day was it Mr. Hanson In the morning I think it was L. Stafford I profess to God it was after Supper as I hope to be saved it was as we were going to bed to the best of my remembrance Sir Will. Jones Did you come into the Parlour after Supper Mr. Hanson I am not sure what time it was Sir Will. Jones If his Lordship please to ask him any more Questions if not we will call another James Ansell who was sworn L. H. Steward What is your Name Witness James Ansell L. H. Stew. Where do you live Mr. Ansell At Heywood in Staffordshire L. H. Stew. Did you live with my Lord Aston Mr. Ansell I have been at my Lords House at Tixal L. H. Stew. But you are not of the Family Mr. Ansell No. L. H. Stew. How far is Heywood from Tixal Mr. Ansell A Mile L. H. Stew. Have you seen my Lord Stafford at Tixal Mr. Ansell I have seen a man they called my Lord Stafford I did not know him but as they told me L. H. Stew. Did you ever see Dugdale in the company of a man they called my Lord Stafford Mr. Ansell Two years ago I was at Tixal and there I saw one that they said was my Lord Stafford walking with Mr. Dugdale whom I did know L. H. Stew. Where was it Mr. Ansell In the Court at Tiaxl walking together L. H. Stew. Were they alone Was there no body else in company Mr. Ansell None that I saw there might be more company but I saw no more Sir Will. Jones Pray my Lords ask how long ago this was Mr. Ansell About Summer was two years Sir Will. Jones If his Lordship will ask him any Questions now we have done he may otherwise we will call another L. Stafford My Lords I have recollected my self as well as I can in so short a time and all I can say is some of my Servants were by I suppose and I do assure your Lordships the other business was above three years ago so the fellow does not know what he does say L. H. Stew. Will you ask him any Questions L. Stafford Pray ask him how long he saw me in the Court with Dugdale L. H. Stew. How long was it Mr. Ansell I cannot tell I did but walk through the Court I came to speak with Mr. Dugdale and he was
Godfrey said he I hear he was an active Justice of the Peace against the Papists and he made this inference We had need have a care what we do for we shall be all sacrificed Sir Will. Jones My Lords will your Lordships be pleased to observe that yesterday there was some Witnesses called to disparage Mr. Dugdale And the first man as I can remember was a very substantial Gentleman called Mr. Robinson I think he was not able to give an account of his Employment but he was a Gentleman that lived upon his Money I remember those were his words My Lords we shall call without telling you what they will say some Witnesses to prove the Condition of this Gentleman what Reputation he is of and what is his Conversation And we first call my Lady Gerard. L. Stafford My Lords pray give me leave to say one word but 't is no great matter 't is not worth the speaking L. H. Stew. What can you say my Lord L. Stafford It was only a thought of my own not worth troubling your Lordships with Then the Lady Gerard appeared and was sworn L. H. Stew. Does your Ladyship know one William Robinson Lady Gerard. No my Lords Sir W. Jones He hath several Names we desire he may be called L. H. Steward Call Robinson the Upholsterer He was called but appeared not Sir W. Jones I perceive we mistake one Lady for another We desire Mr. Booth a Member of the House of Commons may be Sworn VVhich was done in his place L. H. Steward My Lord Stafford send for Robinson your Witness L. Stafford I believe he is here but if he be not one that belongs to me I have sent to see for him whether he be a good or a bad Witness I do not know personally Sir VV. Jones Mr. Booth knows him very well he saw him yesterday and so we may venture to ask him the Question L. H. Steward Did you see Robinson the Witness yesterday Mr. Booth Yes my Lords I did L. H. Stew. Do you know him Mr. Booth My Lords I do know him very well though I have not seen him often for indeed my Lords he behaved himself so the first time that I saw him that I believe I shall never forget him My Lords I am better acquainted with his Character than his Person though I know the man very well and truly the first time that ever I was in his company he gave me no incouragement ever to desire it again for if you please I 'le tell you how I came to know him He told your Lordships that he came into Cheshire at a Cocking it was at that time that I saw him for upon the Sunday after the Cocking I was invited to a Neighbours about two miles from home We were set down to Dinner and we had not sat long but this man comes into the Room where we were there was an empty place at the lower end of the Table and he sits him down and began a discourse to ridicule the Lords day in such a manner as I never heard the like And the rest of his discourse was full of a great deal of Contempt of God Almighty and all that was sacred All his discourse at Dinner was very prophane It was not in mine own House and because it was not taken notice of by the Master of the House and he coming under the protection of a young Gentleman I did not what else I should for I should have made him hold his tongue or have used it to better purpose The whole of his discourse was so Atheistical and prophane that I never heard the like in my life When dinner was done he used a great many inticements to draw the Company into play by asking what would they say if they should see such and such things to be done and at length he pulls out a great many Dice out of his pocket and behaves himself in that manner as people do that would draw in others to play and they that had better skill in it than I said that they were all false When I saw this I desired him to leave our Room or to forbear for said I if this be the entertaintment of the day I must leave the Company then they commanded him to desist This is all that I do know of my own knowledge But I shall acquaint you what I believe for I have heard it from very considerable persons whom I dare credit for the man run much in my mind because I never saw so ill a man in my life Coming home I was speaking to some of my Family says I Yonder I met with the strangest fellow that I ever saw in my days he is fitter to be hanged than any thing else Oh Sir said they there is such a fellow hath cheated I know not how many at the Town where the Cocking was The next day I think it was or shortly after I had occasion to go to that Town and many people came and complained to me of his Cheats to a very great degree They asked me what they should do said I you have nothing to do but indite him for a Cheat. Why said they will you take no course with him Said I What course can I take I am turned out of the Commission of the Peace else I know enough to bind him to the good behaviour After this I had occasion to go into Lancashire and there I found he was better known than trusted There were very loud Complains against him and some would have given Twenty pound to meet with him I heard afterwards he went into Staffordshire and he changed his Name where ever he went but he soon discovered himself and all thereabouts he goes for a notorious Cheat. This is all I can say of him L. Stafford My Lords Be pleased to give me leave to say one word I assure you if I had thought this man had been such a fellow as now he proves I would not have brought him before you I never knew what he was in my life nor heard of his Name till Saturday last L. H. Stew. It may be so my Lord. But your Lordship must take notice that this is the man that gave the most important Evidence that Dugdale should corrupt him to swear against you for money L. Stafford Give me leave to observe upon that my Lords That if Dugdale knew him to be a cheating fellow he might think him the liker to take money to forfwear himself Sir Will Jones My Lords we shall not reply now but observe anon how this cheating fellow comes to swear for my Lord at this time But we desire an Honourable Peer of this House may give some account of him and that is the Noble Lord the Earl of Maclesfeld I think he may be known to your Lordships Then the Earl of Maclesfeld stood up L. H. Stew. Pardon me my good Lord my Lord must be sworn E. of Maclesfeld Before I am sworn I would know of your Lordships
but puts them off and makes them complain says my Lord my Son is now at Standall but I will tell him as soon as he comes home and if you will bring the persons that have waited so long for their money and made so many journeys you shall hear what he will say to it Within a while my Lord Aston that now is came down and I went thither to see what became of it And I went to the Bâ—wling Green where my Lord and his Son were but my old Lord said nothing to me of it nor his Son neither Within a few days my old Lord Aston's Gentleman came down to my House one Mr. Ashley said I I wonder whether my Lord Aston hath acquainted his Son with what I told him says he he hath but it signifies nothing for he will hear nothing against Mr. Dugdale This I speak upon my Oath 't is true L. H. Steward Your Lordship sees what this Gentlemans Opinion was of Dugdale then he would hear nothing against him Will your Lordship conclude L. Stafford My Lords I am mighty unready and know not which way to turn my self upon those new things they have brought for I knew nothing of it nor expected any such thing But will you be pleased that I may call Simon Wright again VVho stood up L. H. Stew. What would your Lordship have with him L. Stafford I have nothing to say to him but to desire him to seé this Letter whether it be of his own Writing or no. L. H. Stew. Look upon that Paper shew it him which was done L. H. Stew Is it your hand Wright This is my hand 'T is part of that I was hired to do There is another of a great deal more consequence than that L. H. Stew. Deliver it in and read it Clerk June the 14. 1680. Sir I Can I bless God with a safe Conscience declare upon Oath that Mr. Dugdale hath been unkind to me in taking his opportunity of my Poverty by reason of a private meeting of us two by his appointment he did that time proffer if I would swear against You and Mr. Gerard he would protect me as one of the King's Evidence and I should not want Money and in the Hall at Westminster he said if I did discover it that day at Mrs. Price's Tryal he would set me in the Pillory This I have owned to his face and shall not go back from this and more neither for fear nor favour So I rest as you shall find by your Servant Sim. Wright L. H. Steward Is this your hand VVright Yes my Lords this I was advised word for word to write L. H. Stew. Who pen'd this for you Did you pen it your self VVright No my Lords they penn'd it and a great while I would not set my hand to it but Jermin Drayton said I need not fear I was not to swear against the King L. H. Steward Who is that VVright He is Butler to Mr. Heveningham L. Stafford See what you have under his hand I have no more to say to him VVright But by their perswasion at last I did wright it and a great deal more then that Sir William Jones I desire to ask Mr. VVright whether they would have had him swore this L. H. Stew. Were you desired to swear this VVright No my Lords they never put me to swear it for they told me I was not to swear against the King but if I would be so kind to make an Affidavit before a Justice of Peace I might then go where I would into the Country and I should have money to bear my charges Sir VVilliam Jones Who would have had you swear it before a Justice of Peace Wright Jermin Drayton and Mr. Longmore where he is I can't tell but he told me that Sir James Symons was better able to perform than Dugdale was to promise Mr. Serj. Maynard The same thing that was done by Redding he was convicted for it and stood in the Pillory Sir Will. Jones We desire to know whether he was ever with Sir James Symons himself and what he offered Wright I was once with him at the Kings Bench I dined there after I had written the Paper that was read he gave me 20 s. and said he hoped I would not go off from what I had said and he hoped I was sensible his gratuity would not be wanting and was sorry he had not occasion to use me Sir Will. Jones My Lords we have done with him I only observe that my Lord Stafford was pleased to produce this Paper he was Master of it and had it in his keeping Sir Fran. VVinnington Wright says there is another Paper of more Consequence I wish his Lordship would produce that also L. Stafford I did not know of this till just now it was delivered into my hands Did you see Mr. Longmore before this Letter was writ VVright Both before and after to the best of my remembrance and at the time when Sir James's Tryal should have been at the Sign of the Crown in Kings-street in Bloomsbury L. H. Steward My Lord will you conclude L. Stafford My Lords I desire your Lordships Pardon I do not know how really to go about it to night I will obey your Commands though I fall down at the Bar. I protest before God I was all night so ill of the Cramp that I had no repose If you will have me go on I will if you will give me but a little time to recollect my self L. H. Steward God forbid when your Lordship is to speak upon so great a Concern and a matter of that importance as this is to you you should be put at the end of the day and in the midst of all your thoughts to sum up your Evidence I do believe if you do desire time till to Morrow my Lords will give it you And if you would have me move my Lords in it I will L. Stafford One word I beseech your Lordships Sir VVilliam Jones We do not oppose it L. Stafford My Lords I desire one thing I am very ignorant in this matter and do not understand it I would desire your Lordships directons to know in what method I must proceed L. H. Stew. Your Lordship is to proceed thus if you please Your Lordship is to recollect and recapitulate all the Proofs you have made and you are to enforce them as well as you can and make such Observations upon them as are for your own advantage and this your Lordship must do for the Fact If there remain a doubt in Law which you may have occasion to move Counsel may be demanded and if it be considerable and worthy of debate you may have Counsel heard to speak to it But the Process is closed no more Witnesses are to be heard There remains only Observations upon the Fact or Law to be made L. Stafford Are no more Witnesses to be heard L. H. Steward No I think not 't is agreed on both sides
good Proof of his being a Papist Besides Dugdale swears my Lord did then complain That they had not the free Exercise of their Religion that they could not say their Prayers openly What were they Not the Prayers of Protestants not those contained in the Liturgy of our Church He could not complain of any restraint as to them but complain he did that they had not the free Exercise of their Religion but he did hope if things succeeded well in a short time it would be otherwise This is particularly sworn by Dugdale My Lords His Lordship was very much unsatisfied That Dugdale was not particular in point of time he did talk of some matters to be in August or September but could not fix to any day But your Lordships will remember that as to one particular and which mainly concerns his Lordship to answer he comes to a day or within a day for he swears positively That upon the 20. or 21. of September he was sent for to my Lords Chamber the Servants were put out that there my Lord did propose to him in express terms the matter of Killing of the King He would have him be an Actor in it and he offered him a Reward of 500 l. to perform it For this which is the most material part of his particular Evidence against my Lord he is certain 't was either on the 20. or 21. of September and he tells your Lordships how he comes to remember the time by a good Token by the Foot-Race that was then to be run and I do not perceive that my Lord does deny but rather acknowledge that Dugdale was in his Chamber at that time 'T is true he does deny some other Circumstances which I shall answer anon And here I do think Dugdale undertakes to swear to that which will amount to an Overt Act and a damnable one too that is the offering 500 l. to kill the King But Dugdale it seems was not willing to depend upon the promises of my Lord for so much money his Lordship had not that credit with him he repairs to Evers and desires to be satisfied from him whether he might rely upon my Lord for so much Money Evers told him he might be sure to have the Money and that there was enough in Harcourts and other mens hands for the carrying on that blessed design and that he should have it thence I might my Lords remember to your Lordships how Dugdale does particularly swear concerning another discourse he had afterwards with my Lord. That my Lord complained of the great losses that had been sustained by him and his friends for the King how in particular my Lord Aston's Father had lost 30000 l. and what resentments my Lord had of it he said that places of profit were rather bestowed upon those that disserted the King and were Rebels and Traytors than on those that did him faithful Service and what does he conclude from thence He is very angry with the King and does say that next to the Cause of Religion which was the strongest motive with him to take away the Kings Life the Kings ingratitude to his Loyal Subjects was that which did most offend him I shall not trouble your Lordships with other particular matters which were to serve as incouragements to the Design as that there was to be a Pardon from the Pope that my Lord did write a Letter to Evers which was shewn to Dugdale wherein he says That things did succeed very well abroad and he hoped they would do so at home I shall only observe that Dugdales Evidence as to my Lords damnable Design of killing the King is positive and full And if this be to be believed as I hope we shall shew there is no reason but it should be then here surely is one sufficient Witness to prove my Lord guilty of the Highest Treason My Lords The next Witness we called for against my Lord was Dr. Oats and I think Dr. Oats is not only positive but he is positive in that which most certainly will amount to an Overt Act nay I think to more Overt Acts than one The Doctor tells your Lordships That having been at St. Omers and in Spain he saw several Letters that were subscribed Stafford he did not then know my Lords Hand but he saw the Letters and he tells you the effect of those Letters And I remember in one of them there is this Expression That my Lord the Prisoner at the Bar does give Assurance to the Fathers that he is very zealous and ready to do them service Doctor Oats tells you my Lords That afterwards coming into England my Lord Stafford did write a Letter I think it was to his Son but sure I am the Doctor said he had the carriage of it to the Post-house that he saw my Lord write it he read the superscription and he swears that the Hand which writ that Letter was the Hand which subscribed to all the former And so then joyning the one to the other it amounts to as good an Evidence as if he had known my Lords Hand from the beginning But that which comes home to my Lord is that which Doctor Oats saw and that which Doctor Oats heard and they are these particulars which I now mention First he saw a Commission directed to my Lord to be Pay-master of the Army he saw it delivered to my Lords own Hand and my Lord accepted it Doctor Oats read the Commission and he tells you by whom it was signed Johannes Paulus Oliva a person substituted by the Pope to issue out Commissions he tells you the Contents of it and of this he swears he was an Ocular Witness He tells you of another Matter he heard my Lord say as considerable as the other That when my Lord had received the Commission my Lord declared that he was to go down into Staffordshire and Lancashire where he was to put things in readiness What were those things He had now a Commission by vertue of which in Lancashire and the other places hâ— was to prepare and gather Monies for that Army which he was to pay So much Doctor Oats doth swear he heard from my Lords own mouth But there is one thing further which I had almost forgot He doth swear that my Lord was privy to and approved of the Matter of killing of the King For he doth swear he did hear my Lord say at that time He hoped before he returned Honest William who was Grove that was executed for this Attempt would have done the business And what that business was every man who hath heard of Groves Treason must needs understand There is but one thing more that I remember of Doctor Oats his Testimony Your Lordships that have a better advantage to write than we who are crowded together may have taken Notes of more but this one thing I do observe Doctor Oats doth expresly swear that my Lord bore a very ill mind towards his Majesty for my Lord did in
Lord Aston's Servants that I desire to observe of him first And what does he say He saith That Dugdale went away for Debt The contrary to which was apparently proved for we by our Witnesses made it manifest that Dugdale went away for the matter of the Plot the fear and dread he was in upon that score and the circumstance of his being apprehended by the Watch at Night in his Flight and how he was put to take the Oaths do manifestly prove this But he says another thing which I desire may have no weight with your Lordships that Dugdale should threaten that because my Lord Aston would not own him for his Servant he would be revenged of him Truly if my Lord Aston were here to be tried it would have some weight But to think if it were true that he had so sworn that therefore he would be so wicked as to do mischief to another man that he would be revenged of every man of that Religion or of every man that came to my Lord Aston's House That cannot be imagined So I cannot see what great stress my Lords the Prisoner can lay upon it as to the present Tryal which concerns my Lord Stafford But My Lords I desire to observe that he says further That when Dugdale went away there was a discourse of a Plot this he helps out Dugdale in and that there was a discourse of the killing of a Justice of Peace So that certainly it does shew that Dugdale was apprehensive of the Plot. And as to that which he is pleased to say That Dugdale should deny his knowledge of the Plot and take Drink and with Execrations forswear it it will be no manner of Objection at all For I shall have occasion to shew hereafter that Dugdale at that time was very far from revealing the Plot he had been so long ingaged in he was in apprehension of the danger of his own life and Southall tells you how and when he revealed it and by what inducements he was prevailed upon to do it The next Witness my Lord called was Philips the Minister of Tixal and truly all that I can accuse him of is want of Memory and that is no fault in a man that perhaps is very studious and careful in his Imployment as I hope he is He tells you that whereas Dugdale swore at a former Tryal that he acquainted Mr. Philips with the death of a Justice of Peace of Westminster on the Munday that he did not acquaint him with it that is he does not remember it for no man that swears a Negative can swear more But whether Mr. Philips Evidence be of any consequence to us we submit to your Lordships consideration when we oppose to his want of Memory two Witnesses that swear he was by when this News was told and we are told likewise as a confirmation of that by two Gentlemen of Quality that the report of such a thing was spread abroad all over that Country before it was possible for it to come by the way of ordinary Intelligence whether therefore what Mr. Philips testifies proceeds from any other cause than want of memory in Mr. Philips I must leave to your Lordships consideration But this I would observe to your Lordships that when Mr. Philips was asked by my Lord whether or no Dugdale were a person likely to perjure himself he could not say so Nay being asked of what Reputation he was of he said by some he was very well spoken of by some but indifferently but I do not remember that he said he was ill spoken of by any So I think Mr. Philips has rather advanced than prejudiced Mr. Dugdale's Reputation and Credit My Lords I think I may lightly pass over the three Justices of Peace that were brought to give an Account of Dugdale's behaviour before them and not mention them distinctly because they swear all to the same purpose That Mr. Dugdale was apprehended upon suspition of the Plot that he took the Oaths that he was invited and urged by them to make a discovery of the Plot which he then denied to have any knowledge of For all this will be answered when we come to re-mind Your Lordships of Mr. Southall's Testimony His Lordship was pleased in the next place to offer to prove Dugdale an ill Man by endeavouring to suborn Witnesses And in the first place he called Robinson who testified a very unlikely thing that Mr. Dugdale should call him in the Street and bring him to an House and offer him Money to swear against my Lord Stafford which Money he had in an Handkerchief but did not tell him what particulars he should swear to Nay and this after he had told him he could swear nothing And it does not appear that Dugdale had any manner of knowledge of him or that this Gentleman Robinson had any knowledge of my Lord Stafford So that it was a very rash and presumptuous thing that Dugdale should attempt a man that he knew not and a very imprudent thing that he should suborn a Witness to swear against a man that the Witness to be suborned did not know But I shall say no more of him because I think upon the Account that has been given of him by a Noble Earl of this House and an Honourable Member of the House of Commons if he had said things in themselves probable he deserves not in the least to be believed My Lords next Witness upon the same Head of Subornation was one Morral a poor Barber and what says he He testifies that Mr. Dugdale did offer him 50 l. to swear against Sir James Symons and some others My Lords whether this be probable or no we must leave to your Lordships We have called Witnesses that prove him a man of no Reputation one that runs up and down the Countrey a kind of Vagabond and I think upon the Endeavours that have been proved to have been used as to others it is no very hard matter to bring a man of his Condition to say as much as he hath done The next Witness is Samuel Holt the Blacksmith and he tells such a Story that if it were true would be some Disparagement to Dugdale and what is that He says that Dugdale sent a Man and a Horse for him to bring him to the Star in Stafford and there offer'd him 40 l. to swear that one Moore carried away Evers My Lords how this Story comes in I cannot imagine why Mr. Dugdale should bear any ill will to Moore or what should induce him to intice this man to swear against Moore or what else was in it it doth not appear But no matter what it is for we prove against this man by two Witnesses Rawlins and Lander By the First that he is a man of ill Reputation very zealous to support the Plot and cry down Mr. Dugdale saying that he was a Rogue and all they were Rogues that took part with him And by the other Witness Lander that Holt did
Oats as to the General Matters which he evidenceth of the Plot. What now doth my Lord object against Dr. Oats He call'd no Witnesses against him but only an Honourable Earl of this House I think I may name him the Earl of Berkely And that which his Lordship was pleased to testifie against him was Object That being examined at the House of Lords after he had given a long Evidence against many persons he was asked this Question whether there were any more Persons of Quality he could speak against or could accuse and he said no. Answ First your Lordships will be pleased to observe that this was after he had accused my Lord Stafford my Lord was secured in the Tower long before that upon Dr. Oats his Testimony and so he could not exclude this Lord. But that which it is brought for I suppose is to make him a person of no Credit For after he had said this he proceeded to an Accusation of the Queen My Lords I humbly conceive this may receive a very fair Answer For First my Lords I appeal to your Lordships Memories for I think the Matter was before you all or at leastwise before some of your Lordships that the Accusation which Dr. Oats made of the Queen was not positive nor of his own certain knowledge but Words which he heard spoken in a Room in which he was not himself but coming in afterwards he saw the Queen was there So it was not positive but circumstantial proof and questionable whether what he testified would amount to the proof of one Witness And I must observe in the second place it might not be so clear to Dr. Oats whether the Queen were a Person capable of an Accusation so as to be proceeded criminally against the King and the Queen are to some purposes but one Person in Law 'T is true some Queens have been tryed for Treason but whether Dr. Oats understood that She might be brought to a Tryal may be a Question But that which I rely upon as an Answer and which I desire may be considered is that Dr. Oats had given an Accompt of a great many persons and a great many things he had sworn against several persons some of which were executed some to be tryed and his Narrative against them and of the whole Plot consisted of a great number of particulars Here is a Question comes to the Doctor on a sudden Have you any more to say or can you speak against any other 'T is possible a man that had said so much and of so many might not upon an instant recollect whether he had said all or against all that he could say Nay ' tit easily to be imagined he could not on a sudden comprehend all he had said or could say Therefore that the Answer of a man to such a Question put suddenly to him having so much in his mind and having said so much should be taken so very strictly and to hold him as perjured because he did not at that instant time remember this particular of the Queen I think is a severe Construction His Lordship is pleased further to object against Dr. Oats that he is of no Credit why Because he went to be of the Romish Religion and so was of that Religion which is Idolatry I suppose his Lordship will not call that Religion Idolatry at another time and in another place but it serves his Lordship upon this particular Occasion to call it so but suppose Doctor Oats did out of Levity or for want of being well grounded in his own turn to another Religion he is not the first man that hath done so There have been Men of great Fame in our Church and of great Learning too that have changed their Religion more than once I think he that knew that Famous Man Mr. Chillingworth could not but know he was first a Protestant and afterwards a Papist and afterwards a Protestant again So that unless my Lord could accuse the Doctor of some great Crime or Immorality it will be hard that the matter of changing his Religion should hurt his Testimony I am sure it was happy for us he did change without that we had not had the first knowledge of the Plot nor of many particulars which he could not come to know but by occasion of that Change My Lord was pleased to object that the Doctor was a man subject to Passion and he brought in the Lieutenant of the Tower to speak of some hot Words that passed between them My Lords I will allow the Doctor to be a Man of Passion Nay if my Lord please a Man that is not of the deepest reach but your Lordships will observe that Passionate Men are not often malicious and that a Man who is not of a deep Judgment could never have contrived and invented a Narrative consisting of so many particulars and they so coherent if they were false And if his Narrative be not true he must be indued with more Subtilty and wicked Policy than upon Tryal we can find in him So that what my Lord hath objected as to his Infirmities is no diminution to the truth of what he says but rather a Confirmation of it My Lords The last Witness whom my Lord endeavoured to impeach is Mr. Turbervill and against him my Lord thinks he hath a great advantage But my Lords by that time I have re-minded your Lordships of what hath been already said and what was before proved in Answer to my Lord's Objections against him Mr. Turbervill will stand as clear in this Court as any of the former Witnesses Your Lordships will be pleased to take Notice That Mr. Turbervill was at the beginning when he came to the House of Commons a little uncertain as to matter of Time For when he had made in his Affidavit the times to be 73 and 76 he craved leave to alter it to 72 and 75. Surely my Lords this will be far from being any Imputation to Mr. Turbervill because First he gives the Reason how he came afterwards to understand the Time bettter by viewing his Papers and Letters he likewise gives you an Account and so did Sir William Poultney when he did this the next Morning before any Man in the World had questioned him upon it So that it shews the Man's Care and Conscience both when he is so careful even in matters of the smallest Moment to set things right There is no Man that knows the Practice of the Court of Chancery but knows that for a Man to mend his Answer after it is sworn in a point of Time or other Circumstance is no disparagement to him Nay to do it before the other Party did except or take notice of it is no Objection but rather a Reputation to him And your Lordships will be pleased to take notice that one of the times rectified is of 7 or 8 years the other of 4 years standing And I do not think the worse of a Witness that is not positive
Rabble Lord High Steward Is it your Lordships pleasure to Adjourn Lords Ay Ay. Lord High Steward Then this House is Adjourned to the Parliament Chamber Then the Lords withdrew in their former Order and the Committee of Commons went back to their House Mr. Speaker resumed the Chair A Message was sent from the Lords by Sir Timothy Baldwyn and Sir Samuel Clarke Mr. Speaker The Lords have commanded us to acquaint this House that they have appointed William Viscount Stafford to be brought to the Bar in Westminster-Hall to morrow morning at Ten of the Clock to receive Judgment The Commons Adjourned to Eight of the Clock the next Morning The Seventh Day Tuesday December 7. 1680. ABout the hour of Eleven the Lords Adjourned into Westminster-Hall going thither in their former Order into the Court there erected and Mr. Speaker having left the Chair the Committee of Commons were seated as before The Lords being sate Proclamation was made for Silence and the Lord High Steward being seated on the Wool-pack with Garter Principal King of Arms the Usher of the Black Rod Nine Maces attending him with all the rest of the Solemnity as was at first expressed took the Votes of the Peers upon the Evidence beginning at the Puisne Baron and so upwards in this Order the Lord Stafford being as the Law requires absent Lord High Steward My Lords I am an humble Suitor to your Lordships That you will give me leave to collect your Votes as I sit for I am not able to stand Which being granted the Lord High Steward proceeded Lord High Steward My Lord Butler of Weston Is William Lord Viscount Stafford Guilty of the Treason whereof he stands Impeached or Not Guilty Lord Butler Not Guilty upon my Honour The same Question was put to the rest whose Names and Votes follow Lord Arundel of Trerice Not Guilty upon my Honour Lord Crewe Guilty upon my Honour Lord Cornwallis Guilty upon my Honour Lord Holles Not Guilty upon my Honour Lord Wootton Not Guilty upon my Honour Lord Rockingham Guilty upon my Honour Lord Lucas Not Guilty upon my Honour Lord Astley Guilty upon my Honour Lord Ward Not Guilty upon my Honour Lord Byron Not Guilty upon my Honour Lord Hatton Not Guilty upon my Honour Lord Leigh Guilty upon my Honour Lord Herbert of Cherbury Guilty upon my Honour Lord Howard of Escrick Guilty upon my Honour Lord Maynard Guilty upon my Honour Lord Lovelace Guilty upon my Honour Lord Deincourt Not Guilty upon my Honour Lord Grey of Wark Guilty upon my Honour Lord Brook Guilty upon my Honour Lord Norreys Not Guilty upon my Honour Lord Chandos Guilty upon my Honour Lord North and Grey Guilty upon my Honour Lord Pagett Guilty upon my Honour Lord Wharton Guilty upon my Honour Lord Eure. Guilty upon my Honour Lord Cromwell Guilty upon my Honour Lord Windsor Not Guilty upon my Honour Lord Conyers Guilty upon my Honour Lord Ferrers Not Guilty upon my Honour Lord Morley Not Guilty upon my Honour Lord Mowbray Not Guilty upon my Honour Lord Viscount Newport Guilty upon my Honour Lord Viscount Faulconberge Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Conway Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Berkley Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Maslesfield Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Hallifax Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Feversham Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Sussex Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Guilford Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Shaftsbury Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Burlington Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Ailesbury Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Craven Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Carlisle Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Bath Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Essex Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Clarendon Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl of St Albans Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Scarsdale Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Sunderland Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Thanet Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Chesterfield Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Carnarvan Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Winchelsea Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Stamford Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Peterborough Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl Rivers Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Mulgrave Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Barkshire Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Manchester Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Westmorland Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Clare Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Bristol Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Denbigh Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Northampton Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Leicester Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Bridgwater Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Salisbury Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Suffolk Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Bedford Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Huntingdon Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Rutland Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Kent Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Oxford Guilty upon my Honour Lord Chamberlain Not Guilty upon my Honour Marquess of Worcester Not Guilty upon my Honour Duke of Newcastle Not Guilty upon my Honour Duke of Monmouth Guilty upon my Honour Duke of Albemarle Guilty upon my Honour Duke of Buckingham Guilty upon my Honour Lord Privy-Seal Guilty upon my Honour Lord President Guilty upon my Honour Lord High Steward Guilty upon my Honour Prince Rupert Duke of Cumberland Guilty upon my Honour Lord High Steward My Lords upon telling your Votes I find there are Thirty one of my Lords that think the Prisoner Not Guilty and Fifty five that have found him Guilty Serjeant make Proclamation for the Lieutenant of the Tower to bring his Prisoner to the Bar. which was done and his Lordship came to the Bar. Lord High Steward My Lord Stafford I have but heavy tidings for you your Lordship hath been Impeached of High-Treason you have pleaded Not Guilty my Lords have heard your Defence and have considered of the Evidence and their Lordships do find you Guilty of the Treason whereof you are Impeached Lord Stafford Gods Holy Name be praised my Lords for it Lord High Steward What can your Lordship say for your self why Judgment of Death should not be given upon you according to the Law Lord Stafford My Lords I have very little to say I confess I am surprized at it for I did not expect it but Gods will be done and your Lordships I will not murmur at it God forgive those that have sworn falsly against me My Lords I conceive I have something to say for respit of Judgment I have been at many Tryals in my Life but I never saw any Tryal where the party tried did not hold up his Hand which I was never asked to do I thought it had been a very material point in the Law That by the holding up of the Hand he might be known to be the Person I have read lately since I had the misfortune to be thus accused Sir Edward Coke upon the Pleas of the Crown and he says that Misnomer the not giving a man