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A00596 The Fisher catched in his owne net Featley, Daniel, 1582-1645. 1623 (1623) STC 10732; ESTC S120857 13,298 32

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millions of professors yet no particular and authenticall record of them by name Records there might be many in ancient time yet not now extant at least for vs to come by yet we will not refuse to deale with you in your owne question if you in like maner will vndertake the like taske in your owne defence and maintaine the affirmatiue in the like question which we now propound vnto you here in writing Whether the Romish Church that is a Church holding the particular entire doctrine of the now Romanists as it is comprised in the Councell of Trent was in all ages visible especially in the first 600 yeares And whether the names of such visible or legible Romanists in all ages can be shewed and proued out of good Authors Here Dr. Featly reading this question through a mistake in stead of out of good Authors read out of Gods word Whereunto Mr. Fisher replied No I will proue it out of good Auhors Then said one that sat at the table By no means can Mr. Fisher endure to demonstrate his Church out of Gods word Dr. Featly God is a good Author Mr. Fisher but it is true I did mistake what say you to the condition will you vndertake to name visible Papists in all ages out of good Authors Mr. Fisher. I will so you proue the visibilitie of your Church Here an order was set downe that Dr. Featly should for an houre and a halfe oppose M. Fisher in this question and afterwards M. Fisher for the last houre and halfe should oppose D White in the contrary question for the visibilitie of the Romane Church M. Sweet Before you proceed to dispute I desire these conditions may be assented vnto on both sides 1. That all bitter speeches be forborne 2. That none speake but disputants Which conditions were well approued of by the whole companie D. Featly I desire a third to be added thereunto viz. that both the Opponent and Respondent be tied to Logicke forme M. Fisher. I hold not that condition fit because the companie vnderstands not Logicke forme D. Featly There are of the companie that vnderstand Logicke as well as you or I and the rest are men of vnderstanding and reason therefore I am resolued to keepe Logicke forme and expect from you direct answers M. Fisher. You your selfe confesse that this question is not to be handled Syllogistically D. Featly I said indeed that it required rather a large Historicall volume then a briefe Syllogisticall dispute the more you too blame to propound such a question and my taske the harder yet being propounded as a question I will keepe my selfe to Logicke forme But before I propound my argument I craue leaue in few words to lay open the vanitie of the vsuall discourse wherewith you draw and delude many of the ignorant and vnlearned You beare them in hand that there was no such thing in the world as a Protestant before Luther and that all the world before his time beleeued as you doe That your Church hath not been only visible in all ages and all times but eminently conspicuous and illustrious which is such a notorious vntruth that I here offer before all this companie to yeeld you the better and acknowledge my selfe ouercome if you can produce out of good Authors I will not say any Empire or kingdome but any Citie parish or hamlet within fiue hundred yeares next after Christ in which there was any visible assembly of Christians to be named maintaining and defending either your Trent Creed in generall or these points of Popery in speciall to wit 1. That there is a Treasury of Saints merits and superabundant satisfactions at the Popes disposing 2. That the Laity are not commanded by Christs institution to receiue the Sacrament of the Lords Supper in both kinds 3. That the publicke Seruice of God in the Church ought or may be celebrated in an vnknowne tongue 4. That priuate Masses wherein the Priest saith Edite bihite ex hoc omnes and yet eateth and drinketh himselfe onely are according to Christs institution 5. That the Popes pardons are requisite or vseful to release soules out of Purgatory 6. That the effect of the Sacrament dependeth vpon the intention of the Minister M. Sweet These are Scholasticall points not fundamentall D. White Those things which are defined in your Councell of Trent are to you matters fundamentall Whatsoeuer article denied makes a man in hereticke is fundamentall But the deniall of any of these makes a man an hereticke Ergo euery one of these articles is fundamentall To which argument nothing being answered D. Featly proceeded 7. That Extreme Vnction is a Sacrament properly so called 8. That we may worship God by an image 9. That the sacred Hoast ought to be eleuated or caried in solemne procession 10. That Infidels and impious persons yea Rats and mice may eate the body of Christ. 11. That all Ecclesiasticall power dependeth of the Pope 12. That he cannot erre in matter of faith 13. That he hath power to canonize Saints 14. To institute Religious Orders 15. to depose Kings c. which latter points and the like I leaue to D. White to maintaine against you when according to your promise you doe vndertake to name visible and legible Romanists in all ages M. Fisher. After you haue proued your Church visible in all ages and named the professors thereof I will satisfie you in your particulars D. Featly In the meane while name but one Father but one Writer of note who held the particulars aboue named for 500 yeares after Christ. To which instant demand of D. Featly nothing was answered Sir Humf. Lynd. M. Sweet proue me but this one point out of Saint Augustine namely Transubstantiation or satisfie such arguments as I shall bring you out of Saint Augustine to the contrary and I will promise you to go to Masse To which M. Sweet made no other then this answer That is not now to the question M. Fisher. I expect your argument D. Featly D. Featly There are two meanes onely to proue any thing by necessary inference to wit a Syllogisme and an Induction other formes of argument haue no force but as they are reducible to these I proue the visibilitie of our Church by both and first by a Syllogisme That Church whose faith is eternall and perpetuall was euer visible in the professors thereof But the faith of the Protestant Church is eternall and perpetuall Ergo. M. Fisher. You conclude not the question D. Featly There are two quaeres in your question first whether the Protestant Church were in all ages visible and secondly whether the names of such visible Protestants in all ages can be shewed I haue concluded in my Syllogisme the first Quaere M. Fisher. There are not two quaeres or parts in the question it is but one question D. White Where there are two propositions with two distinct vtrums there are two questions But here are two propositions with two distinct vtrums