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A10699 A Catholicke conference betvveene Syr Tady Mac. Mareall a popish priest of VVaterforde, and Patricke Plaine a young student in Trinity Colledge by Dublin in Ireland VVherein is deliuered the certayne maner of execution that was vsed vpon a popish bishop, and a popish priest, that for seueral matters of treason were executed at Dublin the first of February, now last past. 16ll. Strange to be related, credible to be beleeued, and pleasant to bee perused. By Barnabe Rych, Gent. seruant to the Kinges most excellent Maiestie. Rich, Barnabe, 1540?-1617. 1612 (1612) STC 20981; ESTC S115901 41,203 61

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opinion be true that the Capernaites lighted on the same manner of eating that Christ proposed vnto them then they deserued rather prayse then blame but they mistooke the wordes of Christ who went about to teach them the spirituall eating of his flesh and drinking of his bloud for so doth he himselfe expound his owne words afterwards to his Disciples teaching them how they should be both faithful partakers of his flesh and rightfull interpreters of his speeches And as many fathers as haue written of that place haue so vnderstood it the which our Iesuites knowing well enough and are driuen to confesse that those wordes were spiritually meant they are therefore inforced to flie from that place which Moore so cōfidently auoweth for that carnall eating and drinking and will in no wise admit those wordes in the 6. of Iohn to appertaine to any thing that was spoken by Christ at his last supper but doe only stick as close to their Hoc est corpus meum as the Cuckoe to her songe Pope Innocent vnderstanding that place of the sixt of Iohn as that great clarke spoken of before Moore had done caused yong children and infants to receiue the sacrament And of this carnall minde were many other Bishops a long time yet afterwards looking more spiritually vppon the matter they confessed their errour Saint Augustine giuing a certaine rule how wee should knowe the tropes figures allegories and phrases of the scriptures putteth this place of the 6. of Iohn out of all doubt and question his wordes be these When soeuer the Scripture or Christ seemeth to commaund any foule or wicked thing then must that text be taken figuratiuely that is as it is a phrase allegory and maner of speaking and must be vnderstood spiritually and not after the letter Except sayth Christ you eate the flesh of the sonne of man and drinke his blood yee shall haue no life in you hee seemeth sayth Saint Augustine to commaund a foule and wicked thing it is therefore a figure commaunding vs to be partakers of his passion and sweetely and profitably to print in our mind that his flesh was crucified and wounded for vs. Ta. But tell me Patricke bee these Saint Augustins owne wordes that you haue thus repeated Pa. You shall finde them in his third booke De doctrina Christiana Cap. 16. Ta. In despite of all you can alledge out of Augustine Ambrose Peter Paul or Christ himselfe I will beleeue nothing but what the holy Catholike church of Rome doth teach and ratifie Pa. Hold you still there Syr Tady for that is the iust rewarde of errour to bee euery day more peruerse more obstinate and more malitious toward the truth then other Ta. Do you denie that the body of Christ is not really conteyned in the blessed sacrament Pa. Flatly Ta. O dangerous impiety O impious blasphemie O most detestable and damnable heresie Pa. O now I see your chiding vaine is come vpon you sir Tady Ta. Is it possible for a Catholicke priest to be patient when euery schoole boy will be inueying itterating of matter against the faith of the Catholike church Pa. For your better satisfaction Syr Tady that the fleshe of Christ is spiritually eaten by faith and beleife what better proofe then the Patriarkes and Prophets of the old law who before the incarnation of Christ did eate his fleshe and drinke his bloode but in beleeuing the promise that Christ should come as wee doe now in beleeuing that he is come Ta. But they that doe beleeue that the body and bloode of Christ is in the sacrament indeede haue the plaine words of our Sauiour himselfe for the ground and foundation of their faith Pa. So haue they the very wordes of God which say that a broken potshard is Ierusalem Ta. The Iesuites you say in the 6. of Iohn do acknowledge and confesse a spirituall vnderstanding but in the deliuering of the sacrament wee be sure hee spake of a corporall and not of a spirituall eating of his body for when our Lord sayd Take eate this is my body did hee not meane they should take it with their hands and eate it with their mouthes and therefore eyther the one place doth but serue to expounde the other or else in both places is prescribed a reall and a corporall eating of the fleshe of Christ Pa. In those wordes Take eate spoke at the last supper no doubt hee ment the corporall eating of that creature which he then gaue them And when he added This is my body he recalled to their mindes the doctryne he had formerly taught them of eatyng of the flesh drinkinge of his bloud in which because they were instructed by the Capernaits errour their maysters declaration of himselfe That the wordes that he had spoke were spirit and life they neither started nor wondered at the matter because they knewe his speaches to be allegorycall Ta. But with what confidence is it avowed by our sauiour when he sayde Verily verily I say vnto you Except yee eate the flesh of the sonne of man and drinke his bloud you haue no life in you Pa. And with what vehemency in the very same place doth he affirme when he sayth verily verily I say vnto you hee that beleeueth in me hath euerlasting life thus you see he that beleueth onely eateth the flesh and drinketh the bloude of Christ for if eating and drinking in this place were referred to the mouth and teeth Iudas or any other infidell that were partakers at the Lordes Table could not perish or els it must follow that to beleeue in Christ were better then Christ himselfe which were a great absurdity for any man to thinke And Christ himselfe hath sayd he that eateth my flesh and drinketh my bloud dwelleth in me I in him now we knowe that sometimes the wicked do eate the sacrament and yet they neither dwell in Christ nor Christ in them Ta. Well Patryck I must not giue you ouer thus I haue yet some other nuttes for you to crack before I leaue you Pa. Le ts see what maner of nuttes they be you shall see I will make a shift to cracke them and if they be oughts worth I may happ to keepe the kernels to my selfe leaue the shelles to you Ta. To proue the reall presence in the sacrament I will avouch those writers that all the Protestants in Ireland are not able to contradict Pa. Out with them in Gods name letvs heare what they be Ta. I will first begin with that great and learned Clarke Durandus who did confidently affirme that Christ is present in the sacrament to the mouth and teeth of the receiuer but hee consenteth with Hugo That we must seeke no longer for a corporal presence then whilst wee are achamming of him in our mouth So long as he doth remaine In visu sapore so long we haue him but these two will in no wise permit that hee should be swallowed in the stomacke but this
be hanged Loe here the pietie that is in popery I haue many times heard speaking of hallowed bread of hallowed water of hallowed ashes of hallowed beades and of such other like hallowed trash but I neuer heard of a payre of gallowes that were hallowed before but these gallowes being thus sanctified and made holy afore hand about 2. of the clocke in the afternoone the traytors were deliuered to the Sheryues of Dublyne that were to see execution who placing them in a small carre and being assisted with a conuenient guarde as they passed along through the streetes of Dublyne diuerse citizens whereof some that were of good sort and fashion as the Bishop passed by fell downe vppon their knees in the durt and mire crauing his fatherly blessing benediction but the poore regardles wretch sitting still like a blocke woulde neither vouchsafe them worde nor so much as to turne his head aside to looke at them or once to lift vp his eyes to heauen or to make shew eyther of deuotion or of anie religion at all what was in him so that he might haue bin a Papist a Turke or a Iew for any thing that could haue bin discerned by him either by his wordes or by his showe And now being come to the place of execution it is truth he was followed with troopes of citizens both men and women and not of the inferior sort alone but of the better amongst the women of the best mens wiues within the cittie of Dublyne that kept such a scriking such a howling and such a hallowing as if Saint Patricke himselfe had bin going to the gallowes they could not haue made greater signes and showes of griefe and sorrowe but when they saw him turned from of the gallowes they raised the Who bub with such a maine cry as if the rebels had beene approched to robbe and rifell their cittie Now to answere to your question if I should say that this deploring of a traytor with such signes and showes of sorrowe did argue but little loue to his maiestie perhaps I might offende a great number of papistes but this I dare bouldly affirme that those fooleries that were vsed both before and after the execution argued but little wit and I thinke the recitall of it woulde make the papistes themselues to laugh at the folly of popery for marke what followed The executioner had no sooner taken of the Bishops heade but that the townes men of Dublyne began to flocke about him some taking vp the head with pitious aspect accompanied with sobs and sighes that of my conscience were breathed out from their verie soule Some kissed it with as religious an appetite as euer they kissed the Paxe Some cut away all the haire from the head which lousie commoditie they religiously reserued for a lousie relique Some others were practising to steale the heade away the which beeing espyed by the executioner hee gaue notice of the matter to the Sheryues of Dublyne Now when he began to quarter the body the women thronged about him as fast and happy was shee that coulde gett but her handkercheife dipped in the bloud of the traytor And the body being once disseuered into foure quarters they neither left finger nor toe but they cut them off and carried them away And to shew their Catholike zeale they tare his garments into tatters and some others that could get no holy monumentes that appertayned to his person with their kniues they shaued of chippes from the hallowed gallowes neyther would they so much as omitt the halter wherewith he was hanged but it was gathered vp to be reserued for holy vses I might speake heere of the Bishops breeches that the executioner sould for fiue shillings to a fellow that carrying them into the towne and tearing them into fitters made as good a market of them amongst the Catholikes of Dublin as if they hadd beene pardons newe come from Rome the poore hangman againe who but laying his cloake a little apart whilst hee was doing of his office it was stolne away from him and could not be heard on till within two or three dayes and then it was knowne to be cut into shreadds and so sold amongst the Papistes for holy reliques at a very deare rate thinking it had beene some vestment belonging to the Bishop I am sorry for my country-men that are so blind and blockish but see what followed the same night after the execution was done they flocke together afresh both men and women with holy water holy candle and congregating themselues at the holy gallowes in the place of execution they spent the fore part of the night in heathenish howling and performing many popish ceremonies and after midnight beeing then Candelmas day in the morning hauing there priests in a readines they had Masse and as some say Masse after Masse day light beeing come they departed to their owne houses all of them made as holy towardes God as they had shewed themselues dutifull to the King Ta. You haue made a long discourse to little purpose for say you what you can it will neuer be beleeued amongst the Catholickes in Ireland but that these men dyed holy Martyrs suffered for matters that did concerne the Church now for temporall Magistracie to haue foueraigntie in spirituall regiment is very vnnaturall say you what you can Pa Who should else mayntaine and vpholde godly lawes but the Prince who should banish and displace false religion together with the spreaders and dispersers of the same but the Prince who should punish malefactors against God as heretickes blasphemers Idolaters and such other like which is to be done in euery Christian common wealth but the Prince Ta. The Prince must learne at the priestes hand what is truth and what is errour before he set in hand to punish Pa. But if the priest doth preach errour in stead of truth may not the Prince both banish the doctrine and punish the teacher Ta. The Pope is the onely decider of those doubts it is hee that must iudge betweene truth and errour Pa. But if the Pope doth finde an errour and doth command the Prince to punish it may he not then doe it with authority Ta. If the Pope doth commaund there is no question but the Prince must obey Pa. Then Kings and Princes must doe more for the Pope then they may do for Christ but if Princes may not iudge of the truth what meant Dauid in his second Psalme to say Bee wise yee Kinges vnderstand yee Iudges and serue the Lord. Ta. Well let be that Princes may commaund yet I say still the Church must appoynt them what they must commaund Pa. But what doe you meane by the Church that you say must thus direct the Prince Ta. What should I meane but the Church that is the Pope his Cardinals Bishops Priestes and all other persons ecclesiasticall Pa. But what meant Saint Paul Actes 20. when hee called the Elders of Ephesus and willed them to feed the