Selected quad for the lemma: lord_n
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A67836
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An apology for Congregational divines against the charge of ... : under which head are published amicable letters between the author and a conformist / by a Presbyterian : also a speech delivered at Turners-Hall, April 29 : where Mr. Keith, a reformed Quaker ... required Mr. Penn, Mr. Elwood ... to appear ... by Trepidantium Malleus ...
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Trepidantium Malleus.
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1698
(1698)
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Wing Y76; ESTC R34116
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83,935
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218
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one that doth Kneel If not as I believe you will tell me I am sure others have then you lay greater stress upon the Posture then we do You teach it as a Doctrine abstracted from humane Laws we reach it injoyn'd only as a Law of Men and so alterable by Men and to oblige no otherwise You say of the Jews Institution of Baptism that they find in it and that it was an Abomination Now Sir I beseech you if it had been so was it not at least highly probable that Christ would some where or other have reprov'd it Would not some mark of Gods displeasure have been exprest against it But 2. Would God have honour'd it so greatly as to have complyed with it to have Countenanced it so far as to send John to Baptize Would Christ himself have submitted to it to be Baptis'd himself Would he have instituted Baptism as the initiating Form of his Church for any to be establisht in it But on the other hand if the Jewish Church appointed Baptism and joyn'd it to Circumcision upon the admission of Prosylites as we do the Cross not as a Sacrament appointed but as the Institution of the Church only and that this was not adding to the Law of God or found fault with by God I think you will find no institution of our Church but what you must excuse by the same Rule And if Christ shew'd the necessity and obligation that laid on all to submit to the Institutions of the Church to say That it became him to fulfil all Righteousness speaking of the Baptism which he was to receive it will teach us a greater Veneration for the Authority of the Church then is commonly thought of Would he have called Baptism Righteousness if in its first institution it had been Sin and an Abomination There are several other Particulars in the Paper I should have spoke to but these come up to the point in hand And the hurry I am in at present made me mislay your Paper and now hardly gives me time to run this over in haste When this point is once settled between us I will go with you afterwards to what other you think fit and according to my Ability deal upon the Square with you The Non-conformist I Will now according to my promise in my last to you and your desire in your last to me which just now came to my hand prove your Ceremonies and Injunctions unlawful or forbidden in Scripture and therefore Non conformity to them is no Schism But I think it convenient first to remove some mistakes of yours I find in your Reply I think contrary to you Men may be guilty of adding to Gods Law tho not as Gods Law else a Multitude of Pharisaical Men of Old were not guilty here Nor their Brethren the Papist in most of their Ceremonies Condemned as superstitious and unlawful in that excellent Book of sound Doctrine The Book of Homilies what Christ says Teaching for Dostrine the Commandments of Men Isaiah says to this effect For I cannot turn to the Place The Fear of me is taught by the Precepts of Men. I know it is commonly pleaded the Pharisees made their Ceremonies a part of their Oral Tradition as the unwritten Commands of God by Moses But as far as I can find this tho so often said is said without Proof I think vast is the difference between not doing a necessary Lawful Action thro tenderness of Conscience and the doing an unlawful one thro mistake The eating of some Meats with Paul was declared Lawful tho some thought it otherwise that they were unlawful yet he censures them not chargeth others not to despise them Commands that they be born with Rom. 14. So to the Corinthians well were it if this were remembred and practised by some Men were these adders to the Word of God But if any did on a mistake of a thing forbidden as Circumcision observing some sort of Days c. he says not so of them but the contrary they were Faults I am afraid of you So that our Noncompliance is not so much an adding as your injoyning in your Service neither are we so culpable in our non-observing your Ceremonies if lawful as your imposing and observing them if sinful All things lawful are not expedient much less necessary I meant No Cross no Publick Baptism no Kneeling no Publick Sacrament and doubted not you must have so understood tho you seem not to do so For that Private Baptism you mention when a Child is like to dye I ever thought it an unlawful thing the some of ours as well as yours too often practise it It seems to me a Bloody Sacrifice and such Ministers to forget what God says I will have mercy and not sacrifice This Custom I doubt not hath been the Death of many Children some have been dying others quite dead whilst Baptizing Oh! such in my Opinion make an Idol of Baptism The Jews in a case of necessity went 40 Years without Circumcision in the Wilderness That Custom appears also to me as bad of giving the Lords Supper to some sick Men. Did you never hear of some dying others dead with the Bread in their Mouths O horrid Prophaning of so great and sacred an Ordinance of Christ But what if Parents think the Cross unlawful and the Children live or dye in Infancy without it What if Men cannot be convinc'd but that Kneeling is unlawful and an abominable Symbolizing with Popish Idolaters Must these go without the Lords Supper all their Days tho never fo Pious Humble and Inquisitive Must they go without Baptism I am unwilling to repeat excellent passages out of famous Davenant de Frat Communione perhaps you may remember them Some Nonconformists do give the Sacrament to them that desire to kneel they that do not refuse it because they think it to be a Sin and the Receiver cannot say they take it to be a Duty If all be true which I have reason to doubt about the Jews admiting Prosylites by Baptism as well as Circumcision it will not follow it is justified because Christ condemned it not for Christ never condemned the Superstitous Lives of the Essense Speculative or Practical which Josephus and others speak of at large No not so much as name them which hath given occasion to some foolishly I think to question whither ever there was such a Sect. Neither doth it appear to me Christ appointed Baptism from the Jewish Custom if taking it for granted such there was but from the aptness of the Sign to the thing signified What then was the Baptism of John thus from men not from heaven Christ calls Gods Ordinances not Mans Righteousness 3. Mat. Now Sir I come to say more to your great Question whether your Ceremonies or Worship be forbidden in Scripture or our Nonconformity free from Schism Some things are forbidden in Scripture more particularly some more generally some by good consequence others more directly Stand fast saith Paul
charged George Fox among other things with this Story That he saw the Blood of Martyrs in the Streets of Litchfield and waded thro their Blood William Pen for declaring as sure as the Lord liveth Thomas Hicks should not go to the Grave in Peace c. Solomon Eccles with Prophesying in the name of the Lord to John Story That he should dye that â—ear because he had set himself against George Fox the Apostle of Jesus Christ c. who lived above four Years after I shall now acquaint you with Objections I have met with from sober Quakers and others and it being so late I hope not to detain you half an Hour 1 Objection Many things they Prophesyed of did come to pass I answer It is enough That many things also did not What if I should now declare in the name of the Lord That Man shall Dye this Year and that man also What if one of them dye will that prove me a true Prophet No the continued Life of the other will prove me a false one What 〈◊〉 I should say Thus saith the Lord To morrow there shall be Rain but the next day none If their be Rain to morrow I am no true Prophet if it Rain also the Day after Many things Muggleton said came to pass but all what the Prophets of the Lord said did so 2 Object Did not the Prophet prophecy falsely when he brought back the other Prophet to Eat and Drink at his own House in the Reign of Jeroboam No Man doubts but a Prophet of the Lord â—â—ay sin and fall before a Temptation as well as other men but he recalled his false Prophecy c. Yet what he was and how far a Prophet dwelling in that Idolatrous place I shall not determine 3 Object George Fox meant he saw Bâ—â—od Visionary and when Edward Burroughs said God could soon Arm thousands of his Saints to destroy the Wicked but for the present it must not 〈◊〉 c. he is to be understood Spiritually and that Friends were to blame in Printing it as they did Then it follows George Fox in the writing that Book and Mr. Pen in the Publishing this stor there did not intend it should be understood Visionary neither saâ— I will the words bear it He put of his Shoes he run thro the Streets of Litchfield and cryed Wo to the looâ—ly City c. These things were not Visionary Hundreds saw him neither therefore could his wading thro their Blood to the warming of his Feet be so Were not the Saints to have their spiritual Arms on for the present according to E. B. 4. Object If all this be true G. Fox W. Pen and others were Deceivers What is this to the Principle their Opinions may be right 1. This will go far 2. Whoever goes over to them must pretend to be Inspired and Infallible How can they then joyn with them proved to be Imposters and false Prophets These Men surely will play their Infallibilitys and Inspirations lustily one upon another 3. These Men have been even Adored by the Spirit of Discerning too Glory be to thee Let me feel thy Vertue 4. Their Letters have been the Quakers Directories their Dictates the Quakers Oracles 5. Spiritual Courts were set up by these Men from the Lord. 6. Can any of them say they were convinced Baptism and the Supper were nothing An Oath was unlawful by their Inward Light and not by Fox their Outward Light Before Igo any further I must remove a Difficulty that lies in my way Croese a Dutch Divine hath written a large Book of five Shillings price called The History of the Quakers much in favour of them But I do declare it is a 〈◊〉 false History but to do him right he confesseth he haed his Accounts from the Quakers Writings sent to him Therefore be was so credulous he tells us of G. Fox 's Fasting ten Days c. It is well known in Amsterdam long since a Woman pretended she should fast longer than Christ fifty Daâ—s a great Concourse all wonder at this Miracle the Lords at last caused the place to be narrowly searcht and under the Chair was a Trap Door where was all Necessaries for Life They Strangled her and as I hear her Statue was made in Wax in the same Chair representing the Cheat yet to be seen in the same Cloaths I doubt not if G. Fox kept a ten Days Fast it was such a Fast as the Amsterdam Gentlewomans Croese also tells us whâ—â—â— Barbarities were used to the Quakers not fit to be named in Bristol in the last Persecution in their Meetings which I then a Bristol Man never heard one word of and how the Quakers persevered to the last when I aâ—rm for years they left their Publick Meeting place as one Man This false Historian tells us That in New-England The Quakers were so cruelly whipt that many Swooned in the Streets to see it and that the Whip was such That the Executioner was forced to put both Hands to hold it I doubt not but Friends are made to believe that the whipping of Dr. Oats was not worse or as bad as theirs He says little of these Mens Blasphemies about Scripture and the man Christ Jesus c. It is well known the last time I thus appeared in this place a Quakor to divert me from my Charge against Pen and other Impostors and false Prophets said Did not the Presbyterians Persecute in New-England What sayst thou G. Keith dost thou not know it But might not I have return'd did not the Quakers Persecute in Pensilvania What say you M. Keith Do you nor know it Yes surely he knew it too well and felt it to purpose for they so Persecuted him that had not the King sent a new Governour there when Mr. Pen absconded as a Jacobâ—â—e we had not had him now with us but the Quakers in his Grave long since Ye this Croese is forced to acknowledge against them among other things there That George Fox put his name to a Book sent to John the III. King of Poland for Toleration full of excellent Latin Greek and French Sentences out of Learned Writer s as if he had been acquainted with those Authors This Book was so curious it was Translated into many Languages and call'd Fox's Book When it is notorious he never well understood his Mother Tongue Croese crys out against this pride of Fox Ahorrible Cheat say I. I my self Sirs have long since read Histories bearing Fox's name which I and others then thought to be his but he sent as I am well informed to the two Lyd 's in Wales and other Schollars to make such Books and he would put his Name to them He also says That the Story of one Brown that Fox say s had Visions and Revelations concerning him what he should do Was only the Man's Opinion about him when Dying And that it was Customary with Fox to write down such Stories as Prophesies from the Lord c. That