he say from whom he had received it D. Oates My Lord I can't remember that that he had received a Letter I am certain L. C. J. Do you know what the purport of the Letter was D. Oates Yes my Lord I will give you a plain Account My Lord he wrote he had received a Letter from Spain and that he was glad the Fathers in Spain had so great confidence in his Integrity And my Lord in March there came another Letter from my Lord Castlemain for my Lord Castlemain had left some things at Leige wherein he did complain of the Fathers that they made no more haste for to send his things to him some odd things he had left there and my Lord he gave an Account of a certain Letter he received from the Rector of Liege whose Advice he did not like for the Rector of Leige and the Rector of Gant were mighty Zealous that the Secular Clergy should be personally present in this Affair L. C. J. Did he write so I would have you say what he writ D. Oates My Lord I have told you he gave an Account that he was unwilling to have the secular Clergy engaged because they were a loose sort of Men and of no Principles and therefore he thought them not fit to be trusted My Lord in April there was a Consult I came over from St. Omers in April some three or four or five daies before the Consult I am not able to guess at the particular time but it was near upon the Consult My Lord this Consult was divided into several Companies after they had met at the White-Horse Tavern wherein they did some things that did relate to the Order as to send Father Cary to Rome After that they divided themselves into several Companies wherein they did agree in ordering the Death of the King L. C. J. You were by D. Oates My Lord I was imployed by them to give an Account of the Sense of one company to another L. C. J. Were you by when they concluded the Death of the King D. Oates Yes my Lord I was then present L. C. J. Did you sign among the rest D. Oates My Lord I don't come here to accuse my self L. C. J. You are Pardoned if it be so D. Oates My Lord I did consent My Lord In this consult they met together and an Oath of Secrecy was administred my Lord Castlemain was there too within some few days after the Consult that is the Gentleman whom I accuse for Treason I say did come and enquired about the Copies of some Letters for to be sent up into Germany and did desire that an Agreement between them and the Monks might be made up there being a difference between them so that they might have the Assistance of that Order to carry on the Design L. C. J. What Gentleman was this D. Oates It was the Prisoner my Lord at the Bar. L. C. J. Would the Gentleman let you hear him say that he desired Assistance to carry on the Design and you a stranger to him D. Oates My Lord I do not think I was a stranger to him so much as he was a stranger to me he knew I was their Servant and employed by them L. C. J. Would he say in your hearing that he desired their Assistance to carry on the Design and you did not know him D. Oates My Lord I did not well know him at that time and I brought several Messages from the Fathers and from Mr. Langhorn and I gave them an Account before him L. C. J. How often had you seen him D. Oates That time he was there my Lord. L. C. J. How many Messages had you D. Oates I will tell your Lordship where I had been I had been at Mr. Simmonds's who was then Confessor to the Earl of Aurundel who is since turn'd Protestant Confessor to him as he pretended and we looked upon him to be And I had been at Father Cain's who was in Turnmill-street and I had been my Lord at Mr. Langhorn's in the Temple and some other places which I do not now remember it is so long since So my Lord I gave them Account of my business and I did see that Gentleman but did not know his Name till my Lord in June L. C. J. When was this D. Oates This was my Lord as near as I can remember in May. L. C. J. So you did not know his Name till Three Weeks or a Month after D. Oates No my Lord It was in the latter part of June J. Jones You saw him first in May D. Oates Yes my Lord. J. Jones And you did not see him till after the Consult I don't ask you whether he was there or no but whether you saw him before the Consult was Signed D. Oates No my Lord. L. C. J. How did you come to know his Name D. Oates My Lord In June Mr. Langworth and I were going over Lincolns-Inn-Fields intending to go to the Fountain in Fullers Rents because there was a sort of Drink that he loved and we were to drink together it was in the Evening and so in our way as we went we met with my Lord Castlemain whom Mr. Langworth did salute and then we came back to Mr. Fenwick's Chamber L. C. J. With whom did you come back D. Oates With my Lord Castlemain L. C. J. Did you know his Name D. Oates Mr. Langworth told me It was the Prisoner at the Bar my Lord and the Prisoner at the Bar was giving an Account of some Letters he had received out of the Countrey and Mr. Langworth was giving him an Account how forward the Rector of Leige and the Rector of Gant were in offering to have the secular Clergy engaged with them and some other Discourse they had which I can't remember but about the Design L. C. J. What did they talk of at that time You must as near as you can tell us what Discourse they had D. Oates I will give your Lordship this They were speaking of the Transactions of the Consult and how unanmious the Fathers were in Signing the Consult L. C. J. Who was speaking of it D. Oates Mr. Langworth and Mr. Fenwick and my Lord Castlemain was present L. C. J. They did talk of it D. Oates Yes L. C. J. Did they mention the particulars of that Consult D. Oates Yes L. C. J. What was that D. Oates Laying aside the King L. C. J. And what else D. Oates And bringing in the Popish Religion the Catholick Religion I speak their own words L. C. J. And this Discourse they had in the hearing of my Lord Castlemain D. Oates Yes and my Lord Castlemain said Now he should be revenged for the Injuries done to him L. C. J. Go on D. Oates I have nothing else to say of my Lord Castlemain that I can think of at present L. C. J. Now my Lord you may ask him what Questions you think fit Prisoner Mr. Oates Repeat your Journey again D. Oates My Lord
as to the business of the Divorce I might look upon it as impertinent and so possibly might not mind what he said Prisoner I only offer this to you and if your Lordships command me to desist I will desist Dr. Oates I desire my Evidence to prove that I was in Town J. Raymond Pray Mr. Oates you are an Evidence you must be govern'd by Mr. Atturney L. C. J. It would be very fit Mr. Atturney to prove that Mr. Oates did come over with Hilsley in the Pacquet Boat J. Raymond Mr. Oates I remember very well gave an Account of his coming over said he I did come over with such and such persons and among the rest was Mr. Hilsley This is only to prove that he was at the Consult Att. Gen. We can prove it Records produced against Mr. Dangerfield L. C. J. Here is That he was burnt in the hand and Outlawed for Felony Pilloryed for Cheating Twice Pilloryed and see whether he was Whipt or no. Sir F. W. I know nothing of the Pillory J. Raymond Here was a Record of being burnt in the hand and a Record for putting away false Guinneys L. C. J. For that he was to stand in the Pillory Clerk of the Crown Here is one Record for another Shilling gilt L. C. J. Was that in the Pillory too Att. Gen. He was fined Fifty Pounds Clerk of the Crown Here are Three in Salisbury for Three several Guinneys and he was Adjudged to the Pillory for them all Att. Gen. It was all at one Assizes my Lord. L. C. J. My Brother Tryed him Clerk of the Crown He was Tryed before Mr. Justice Jones and to stand in the Pillory for all three L. C. J. What have you else to say Prisoner Call Mrs. Cellier and Mr. Dowdal L. C. J. What is your Name Sir Dowdal My Name is Bennet Dowdal L. C. J. What have you to say to him my Lord Prisoner Mr. Dowdal the case is this Mr. Dangerfield tells me I was angry with him at such a time for a business at my house was I not angry with him at Powis house for going to the Lords in the Tower Att. General Then he did go about it Dowdal Mrs. Cellier spake to me to speak to Mr. Dangerfield not to be troubled at your anger J. Raymond When was this Dowdal After the Jesuites died Prisoner He proves this That Mrs. Cellier spake to him to pacify Mr. Dangerfield and Dangerfield did tell him I was angry with him for going in my Name to the Lords J. Raymond He says no such thing my Lord. L. C. J. You must not ask him what Mrs. Cellier said Mrs. Cellier This day Twelve Month he and I had been employed in writing Copies of some Letters and I sent him to my Lord to know if he would go something towards the Printing them and he went from him to the Lords in the Tower In an hour and half after my Lord came to me very angry Mrs. Cellier said he I thought you would not forfeit your discretion to send such a Rascal to me if you send him to me again I will bid my Servants kick him And said I to Mr. Dangerfield you are not to note that for he is a very good Man and may be angry one time and pleased another and I would have sent him another time and said he Pray Madam don't send me thither I would rather go an hundred miles of your Errand L. C. J. Dangerfield that Discourse you had with my Lord was it before the Jesuits dyed or after Mr. Dangerfield What Discourse L. C. J. When you discours'd about killing the King Mr. Dangerfield No my Lord Two months after L. C. J. When was the time that these words were spoken Mr. Dangerfield When his Lordship was in that Passion L. C. J. When was that Mr. Dangerfield My Lord it was about the middle of August L. C. J. Was you ever in his Company after Mr. Dangerfield No my Lord I saw him once at Powis House L. C. J. Had he ever been angry before Mr. Dangerfield No not till this time my Lord. L. C. J. Here Mrs. Cellier witnesses that this day twelve month my Lord was extreamly angry insomuch that when she would have had you go on an Errand you would not Mr. Dangerfield My Lord that time I had been with my Lord Castlemain I went home to Mrs. Celliers house which I did then call my home and said I My Lord Castlemain is most violently angry with me L. C. J. When was this Mr. Dangerfield This was the latter end of August L. C. J. But she talks of this time Twelve-month Mr. Dangerfield It is no such thing my Lord. Mrs. Cellier I said Pray carry this Letter to my Lord Castlemain Pray excuse me said he I had rather go an hundred Miles than go by his door L. C. J. Whereas Dangerfield says He had this Discourse in August Mrs. Cellier says in June or July this day twelve-month particularly she gave him a Letter and he said Pray excuse me I would go an Hundred Miles for you but I would not go into my Lords Company again if I could help it Prisoner My Lord Mr. Dowdal can tell it L. C. J. Did he acknowledg to you my Lords anger in the beginning of July Dowdal It was within a week after the Jesuits died L. C. J. I don't know that Dowdal It was about the Twenty first of June L. C. J. Here are two Witnesses one saies in June or the beginning of July says Mrs. Cellier this day twelve-month he came and told me my Lord was extreamly angry with him And she would afterwards have had him carried a Letter But he said Pray excuse me I would go an hundred miles but he would not go again to him if he could help it And Dowdal says he told him about that time of my Lords anger with him Att. Gen. Hold your tongue Mr. Dangerfield J. Raymond What Jesuits Dowdal The five Jesuits Prisoner If you please my Lords I would only tell you this My Lords you see that these two Witnesses testify that I was angry with Mr. Dangerfield in June My Lords I only say this to you that when I was Examined at the Council before the King of this Particular my Lord Chancellour asked him the Particulars of it and he did confess this thing which I now prove Now my Lords I inferr this if I was so angry with him for offering to go to the Tower when he went to the Tower in my Name L. C. J. That they have said that you were very angry Dowdal Dangerfield told me so that he was angry about his going to the Tower in my Lords Name unknown to him L. C. J. Here are two Witnesses to prove that my Lord was angry with him for going to the Tower in his name and they both testify he was extreamly high and refused to carry a Letter to my Lord and yet he says in August following he had this Discourse Prisoner
I say this I went a Ship-board in April I returned from Valledolid in November I arrived in London in November and staid in London some time and then I went to St. Omers in November or December new Stile or old Stile I staid at St. Omers from thence I went to Watton then my Lord in the Month of March we went to Leige and returned back again In the Month of April we came hither some time before the Consult and staid here some time after Prisoner What time were you at Leige pray Sir D. Oates In March 77. J. Jones The end of 77. D. Oates No my Lord we were at St. Omers again in March L. C. J. You returned in March 77 78 D. Oates Yes my Lord the Stile doth so alter Prisoner That is before lady-Lady-day D. Oates Yes my Lord it was before lady-Lady-day we Arrived here in London in May or in April and we staid here some few days Prisoner When did you come over again pray Sir D. Oates My Lord it is now Two Years ago or better and I can't remember every particular time My Lord we were here in May. Prisoner I will ask him as many Questions as I think reasonable and when my Lord I do desire times and he can't tell the times he must tell me so L. C. J. Mr. Oates Answer my Lord what Questions he asks you D. Oates I will tell my Lord Castlemain as near as I can remember my Lord. Prisoner Mr. Oates When was it you came over D. Oates Really it was some few days before the Consult Prisoner How many days do you think D. Oates Really I can't remember L. C. J. I suppose you have your Memorials D. Oates Really my Lord no. L. C. J. Have you any thing more to ask Prisoner Yes my Lord a great many Questions Were you present Mr. Oates pray at that Consult when I consented to the Kings Death Was you by D. Oates I was present at the Consult but I do not charge you to be at the Consult L. C. J. He asks you where it was he agreed to it D. Oates At Mr. Fenwick's Chamber I remember it was about Seven or Eight a Clock that we were going over Lincolns-Inn-Fields L. C. J. How long might you be at Fenwicks D. Oates It was about 11 or 12 a Clock I came away Prisoner When you met me in Lincolns-Inn-Fields was I in a Coach or on Foot or was any body with me D. Oates I can't say whether your Lordship had a Man with you or no. L. C. J. Was there any body with him D. Oates I did not take notice of that L. C. J. You were two hours together pray let me ask you this Question What was your Discourse about D. Oates That was part of the Discourse my Lord. L. C. J. What You have given us a very short Account of it in Four lines You were two hours together What was the main of your Discourse about D. Oates My Lord I will give you as plainly as I can the Discourse at that time C. L. J. Pray let us know what the main of your Discourse was about D. Oates One part of their Discourse was about the Revenues of their Colledges and how they had suffer'd by the French's taking St. Omers and what losses they had sustained by reason of the change of Government by the Conquest for the Crown of Spain had entailed on the Colledge of St. Omers Five or Six Hundred a Year for the maintaining the Foundation of their House or Foundation Rent and it was taken away by reason of the Conquest that France had made over the Spanish Dominions there and they were consulting how they should Write to Father Le Chese to be an Instrument to move the French King to restore this Annuity that was a Settlement entailed upon it L. C. J. How came you into this Discourse D. Oates This was after the other Discourse L. C. J. How came you to Discourse this Affair here in England D. Oates I will tell your Lordship as near as I can remember When we met in Lincolns-Inn-Fields Mr. Langworth recommended me to my Lord Castlemain and bad me take notice of him I can't say this is my Lord Castlemain but this is that Man I saw L. C. J. Did he call him by his Name D. Oates He told him that I was such a one and that I was serviceable to them And upon our way as we went to Mr. Fenwick's Chamber he inquired into the Causes of my coming over so soon again for he said I went over but last Month. Said he How came it to pass he came over so soon again Saith he We wanted him to do some business for us And there were more particulars of the Transactions of the Consult mentioned to my Lord Castlemain L. C. J. How did they bring in the Particulars of that Design D. Oates This is as near as I can remember L. C. J. How came they to talk of laying aside the King and bringing in the Catholick Religion D. Oates My Lord After they had given an Account of the Transactions of the Consult This was one part of the Consult L. C. J. Pray how came they to bring it in in Discourse D. Oates My Lord they spake of the particulars of it L. C. J. I wonder what introduced the particulars Was it to acquaint him with those particulars D. Oates My Lord I have nothing to say to that they were things so generally talked of by those of the Jesuitical party that when ever they met they scarce did talk of any thing else but of that and so they did at this time L. C. J. Pray tell me the whole discourse as you can remember that relates to this time D. Oates My Lord I have told your Lordship we met with my Lord Castlemain in Lincolns-Inn-Fields I have told you my Lord that we went to Mr. Fenwicks I have told you my Lord that after some Discourse how it was introduced I cannot be positive but as near as I can remember they were speaking of my going over and coming again so soon my going from the Consult to St. Omers and returning again into England so soon and so one word brought in another L. C. J. Did you know then that my Lord Castlemain had ever heard of this matter before D. Oates My Lord I don't know but I am morally certain as to my self but I can't swear he did Att. General Did he speak of it to him as a stranger to it D. Oates No. J. Jones By the Letter you spake of he knew before L. C. J. Answer my Brother's Question Was the Letter you had seen before or after that Discourse at Fenwicks D. Oates My Lord that was after the Consult L. C. J. Then you know he did know of the Design D. Oates My Lord I think not of the particulars of the Design L. C. J. That is he knew of this Design for the main When you talk of the Design you always mean
it does not set a Man as if he had neuer Offended It cannot in reason be said a Man guilty of Perjury is as Innocent as if he had never been Perjured Att. General I say if a Man be Pardoned he is as if he were not Guilty L. C. J. If I were in my Lord Castlemain's Case I would submit it but when he hath given his Testimony my Lord shall have liberty to give in the Records against him of what Crimes he hath committed J. Jones I do confess indeed that my Lord Hales in his little Book of the Pleas of the Crown saith That a Man that hath had the benefit of his Clergy is restored to his Credit J. Raymond If that case be allowed it is a plain case for there is no Man can wage Battle but he that is Liber legalis homo Recorder A Man broke Prison and therefore he could not wage Battle he replies the King hath Pardoned me that Felony and thereupon he is admitted to wage Battle J. Jones Where there is no Judgment given in the Case and the King doth Pardon a Man that doth make a very great difference Recorder In the Case of Witherington my Lord Chief Justice did look upon the Records and afterwards said he was a good Witness and was Admitted Prisoner If you have Law by you I must consent L. C. J. Then you must consent Recorder There are several Persons who have had Pardons after Robberies and we are forced to make use of some of these Fellows L. C. J. Before Conviction Recorder No after Conviction my Lord I have known a Prisoner at the Bar when my Lords the Judges have been there to be a Witness And if the Court had made any doubt it would have been a Question before this time of day Att. General My Lord if you please Mr. Dangerfield may be Sworn If your Lordship pleases L. C. J. My Lord shall have the benefit of excepting against his credibility Then Mr. Justice Raymond went down to the Court of Common Pleas to know their Opinion J. Jones Have you any other Witness in the mean time Att. General No my Lord he is a principal Witness Sir F. W. Besides the common Practice here is a Book that says he shall wage Battle J. Jones That is when there is a Pardon before Conviction Sol. General But here my Lord he says the Reatum is taken away and then it takes away his disabilities too The difference can be nothing here before Conviction and after because before Conviction there is a disability before Conviction he is disabled from waging Battle So that that makes no difference before Conviction and other Cases after Conviction and the disability is taken away by the Pardon and he is restored to be a Freeman L. C. J. There is a disability upon Presumption tho not upon Conviction Sol. General There is the same legal impediment in the one as in the other but his Credit is left to the Breast of the Jury Recorder When a Pardon comes it takes away not only Poenam but Reatum and the Reason my Lord Hobart gives L. C. J. Nay give your Reason Recorder For Felony is Contra Coronam Dignitatem is a Fault against the King and when the King Pardons it it ceases and in another place it is said It Pardons all disabilities incident to him J. Jones That is before Conviction still L. C. J. Don't my Lord Cook tell you expresly That the taking a Pardon doth not prove any Offence You take a Pardon it ought not to be concluded that you are Guilty but the proper conclusion of a Wise Man is that you would be safe It can't be thought that every Man that hath a Pardon in England is guilty of all those Offences that are there Pardoned J. Jones There is a difference between a General Pardon and a particular Pardon when a Man doth accept of a special Pardon it must be intended that he hath some Consciousness of Guilt or else he would not take it but he that is Included in a general Pardon may be clear because all Men are Included in it unless some Persons particularly excepted and the difference is taken in that very point from accepting a General and a Special Pardon L. C. J. That the Acceptance of a General Pardon doth not barely of it self intend Men to be Guilty of the Crimes is plain and the reason is most apparent for besides that Men be safe so there be times that give a Reason why Men should have a Pardon because no man knows when he is safe Perjury so abounds that no man can say he is safe and that is a Reason why Men should be very willing to accept of Pardons Clerk of the Crown Here 's my Lord Hales's Book about the Pleas of the Crown Recorder He says when the King hath discharged and pardoned him he hath cleared the Person of the Crime and Infamy J. Jones It is so no doubt Sir F. W. May we pass upon these Authorities J. Jones Sir Francis We are not willing to go about it till it be concluded for that purpose we have desired my Brother Raymond to know the Judges Opinions of the Common Pleas. Recorder He doth expresly say it hath restored him to his Credit and in Witherington's Case he did call for the very Records Att. General If it restore him to his Credit I hope it shall not blemish him so much when he is Sworn that he shall not be believed L. C. J. We won't have any prepossession in that Case his Crimes shall be all taken notice of Is it fit to have Men Guilty of all sorts of Villanies and not to observe it J. Jones In that very Case my Lord Hobart says A Man may say of a Pardoned Man he was a Felon though he cannot say now he is a Felon and now what can be objected to this Case Recorder Things may be objected against a Person and his Credit left to the Jury but the Question now is Whether he shall be a Witness or no L. C. J. We have Men grown so Insolent they behave themselves with that vile Insolence that now they take upon them to speak against whole Societies of Men as if so be there were any thing in them that should render them better then their former Lives or Natures Humility becomes penitents and no wicked Man is supposed to be penitent that hath not that but these carry it with that Insolency as if they were not concern'd themselves when God knows the best of them discover what they do by being but parties themselves Mr. Justice Raymond return'd from the Court of Common Pleas. L. C. J. I will tell you what my Brethrens Opinions are he hath put it to them on both Accounts That he was convicted of Felony and Burnt in the Hand for it that he was outlawed for Felony and hath a General Pardon They say they are of Opinion That a General Pardon would not restore him to
Letters and Lists of Names containing matter to the same effect as I told you before as those in Mansell's Chamber and all tending to the Credit of the Sham Plot or the Presbyterian Plot. Now my Lord a pretty while after this in August as near as I can remember about the middle of August I went to wait upon his Lordship the very next day after I had been treated withal in the Tower to kill the King whom God preserve my Lord and his Lordship had a Servant then in the Room and he sent his Servant down Stairs and looked upon me with a very Austere Countenance Said he Why would you offer to refuse the business for which you were taken out of Prison L. C. J. To you Mr. Dangerfield To me my Lord. L. C. J. Who was by Mr. Dangerfield No body but his Lordship and my self for he sent his Servant out before So he asked me Why I would offer to refuse the business I was taken out of Prison for I asked his Lordship What that was Said he Was not you at the Tower yesterday Yes my Lord I was Would your Lordship have me Kill the King I suppose that 's the business Yes that is said he Upon which my Lord fell into such a fury that I was fore'd rudely to leave the Room and went down Stairs I think at the same time his Lordship was writing the Compendium of the late Plot for there I saw some words in a Paragraph that lay upon the Table which I afterwards saw in that Book There was Ink set upon the Table and open in his Lordships hand And his Lordship did use in his Discourse to call his Majesty Tyrant L. C. J. Have you heard him In what company Mr. Dangerfield In his familiar Discourse As to ask when his Majesty will return from Windsor Says he When the Tyrant pleases And I remember I heard his Lordship mention the word Tyrant to Mrs. Cellier at Powis-house Att. General How came that Discourse about Killing the King What was the occasion of that Discourse L. C. J. Had you refused it to my Lord Mr. Dangerfield Yes my Lord I refused L. C. J. What did you say to him Mr. Dangerfield I said any body but my King my Lord. L. C. J. He said Why did you refuse to do that for which you were taken out of Prison What is that my Lord Was not you at the Tower yesterday Why won't you do it What is it my â—ord Is it to Kill the King I suppose that it is saith he That your Lordship intends Yes says he That is it why won't you do it That is what he says Att. General That is the Evidence we give J. Jones You say he was very violent L. C. J. Was you ever in his company afterwards Mr. Dangerfield No not after that my Lord that I know of L. C. J. What kind of fury did he shew to you at that time Mr. Dangerfield My Lord he was in a great rage as his Lordship is very cholerick he was bustling about and I knew not what he intended to do and I was unwilling to stand the Test of his Anger His Lordship seemed by his look to be meditating Revenge L. C. J. How Mr. Dangerfield I say this After his Lordship had sent his Servant out of the Room said he Why would you offer to refuse the business for which you were taken out of Prison Said he Were not you at the Tower yesterday Said I Yes my Lord I was Would you have me kill the King Is that the business Yes that it is said my Lord very angrily Prisoner When did you go to the Tower Was this the next day after it Mr. Dangerfield The next day after it Prisoner Mr. Dangerfield Pray let me ask you one Question Did not I threaten to kill you or have some of my Servants kill you if you came unto me again Mr. Dangerfield One time his Lordship saw me at my Lady Powis's house and he shewed me a very particular Favour I speak it in the presence of Almighty God nothing out of revenge nor for any sort of Interest Prisoner Was I never angry with you but at that time Mr. Dangerfield No my Lord I know not or any other time that your Lordship was angry L. C. J. Now what say you my Lord Prisoner The First thing I desire to do is here are two Gentlemen gives in Evidence against me the one is Mr. Oates the other Mr. Dangerfield Mr. Oates says That he in Spain did see several Letters from me That when he came over into England he brought a Letter from Spain to me that that Letter was given to the Provincial and the Provincial he supposes gave it me Now my Lord I only desire this that the first thing that shall be done is that you will please to call Mr. Parker who will shew you what a kind of Man Mr. Oates is And I am glad since you say that Mr. Dangerfield is a good Witness that I can prove that every word he says is a lie And so begin with Mr. Oates Prisoner My Lord I would offer you a Record a Record of some particular Actions from Hastings L. C. J. Read the Record The Record Read L. C. J. What use can you make of this Prisoner My Lord the case is only this My Lord I will tell you here is Mr. Oates this is only to shew what kind of Man this Mr. Oates is Mr. Oates he comes and accuses a Man at Hastings for Buggery there he is Indicted and comes to his Tryal and then he is found Innocent Now my Lord I sent for this Mr. Parker to tell your Lordship what kind of man this Mr. Oates was and for that purpose shew the whole proceeding L. C. J. My Lord you shall have all the Justice in the World but we must have right done to the Kings Evidence You have brought in a thing whereby all you can make against Mr. Oates is this That he was the Prosecutor of a Man for the Crime of Buggery and is supposed to have taken his Oath there and notwithstanding the Jury would not believe him and found the Man not Guilty Prisoner My Lord I come to shew you the motives how the Jury came to clear him that is by proving this man was in another place at that time and satisfied the Court and Jury that he was from Eleven a Clock or sooner till Eight or Ten a Clock with them in Company where it was only the malice that was between Oates and Parker And several Witnesses that were in the place where he said the Buggery was committed said that he was not there and they Witnesses positively said they were with him and all looked upon Mr. Oates as a detestable man and sent him out of the Court. L. C. J. Do you prove this by any but Parker J. Raymond This ought not to be admitted for if it be Mr. Oates stands here to answer all the Faults
in respect of his Oath and Place if he doth not make those just Observations to the Jury which are done in all Cases That is to say when men have contracted great Crimes upon themselves though by Law they may be Witnesses yet it hath always been observed and their Credit left to them to consider of You see how many Crimes they have produced a matter of six great enormous Crimes and by them you will see how far you ought to consider his testimony Had Mr. Dangerfield been guilty only of being concern'd in the Treason and come in as a Witness I should have thought him a very competent Witness for that is Mr. Oates his Case but they prove Crimes of another sort and nature and whether the man of a sudden be become a Saint by being become a Witness I leave that to you to consider and how far you are satisfied in the main The next thing is the opposition to his Testimony He hath sworn that he carried a Letter from my Lady Powis to my Lord Castlemain and an Answer return'd Lack from my Lord to her and that my Lady Powis did read it in the presence of Mrs. Cellier and him Of this my Lady Powis hath been asked it is true they are not upon their Oaths but that is not their fault the Law will not allow it and my Lady Powis hath affirmed to it as much as lay upon her to do that she never sent a Letter by Mr. Dangerfield to my Lord Castlemaine nor any Body else And whereas he say's Mrs. Cellier was present she says she knows of no such Letter nor was any read in her company And this is a contradicting his Evidence supposing him to be a man otherwise untouch'd And whereas Dangerfield says that in August he was with my Lord and he said How chance you would not do that thing for which you were brought out of Prison What would you have me kill the King Yes saith he that it is And my Lord speaking very angrily and very roughly made him think it time to with-draw out of his company and never come into his company more and that this was the time of his anger and no other time my Lord rather complementing him as he would say with friendly salutations But they produce Witnesses against this Says Mrs. Cellier this day Twelve-month and says t'other about a week after the Jesuits were executed which was about the beginning of July saith she I would have you carry a Letter to my Lord Castlemain Saith he I would not do that I would go an Hundred miles upon another Errand but I would not go to him Another Witness says my Lord was mighty angry with him and told him the cause because he went in his Name to the Lords in the Tower First This contradicts what he said as if there had been no anger before The next is That it is very improbable that my Lord should be angry with him so much that my Lord should be very angry with him for going in his Name to the Tower and afterwards for his refusing to kill the King when he said Why did you not do that you came out of Prison for What my Lord to kill the King Yes that This is an Argument in opposition to his Testimony The next is a Consideration for his Testimony Turner-says in an swer to that In July he takes it but cann't charge himself whether June or July or August but he himself thinks July that he saw him at the Lord Castlemain's House And the Kings Council would gather from that there could not be such an unwillingness to go before that time it being after the time they speak of that this man saw him there Whether or no it was in June or July or August is something uncertain So that I have repeated as near as I can all that is substantial on either part and I have according to the best of my understanding dealt fairly on both sides and observed to you what hath been sworn against my Lord and what hath been said in contradiction to what they swear and what appears upon Record as to Dangerfield There is a great deal of difference between Mr. Oates his Testimony and Mr. Dangerfield's for you may believe one when you may perchance not believe another There are not those things cast upon Mr. Oates that are upon Mr. Dangerfield Now I must tell you though they have produced two if you believe but one I think if so be my Brethrens Opinions be otherwise I would be very willingly contradicted in this matter if two Witnesses are produced both speaking materially to the thing the one is believed and the other not Whether upon these two Witnesses the Jury can find a Person Guilty or no I am of Opinion it is but one Witness if you don't believe one and I am sure one is not sufficient to find one Guilty and therefore if so be you are of another Opinion let us deal fairly and above-board that it may appear we deal rightly between the King and his Subjects and so preserve men that are accused and not guilty J. Jones I think in the first place my Lord hath very faithfully delivered the Evidence and I do think it necessary in a Case of Treason That there must be Two Witnesses believed by the Jury J. Raymond I never heard any man question it If the Law says There must be Two Witnesses produced it says They must be both believed L. C. J. Now you have our Sense of it The Jury went from the Bar and returned Cler. of the Crown Are you all agreed of your Verdict Jury Yes Clerk of the Crown Who shall speak for you Jury The Foreman Clerk of the Crown Roger Palmer Esq Earl of Castlemain in the Kingdom of Ireland Hold up thy hand look upon the Jury Clerk of the Crown Is Roger Palmer Esq Earl of Castlemain in the Kingdom of Ireland Guilty of the High Treason whereof he stands Indicted or not Guilty Jury Not Guilty Clerk of the Crown This is your Verdict You say he is not Guilty so you say all Jury Yes FINIS
BY Vertue of an Order to me granted by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament Assembled dated on Thursday the 28th of Octob. 1680 I do appoint Randal Taylor near Stationers Hall to Print this Trial of Roger Earl of Castlemaine and that no other Person or Persons print the same JO. COMBE London Januar. 12. 1680-1 THE TRYAL OF ROGER EARL OF CASTLEMAINE FOR High Treason In Conspiring the Death of the KING The Subversion of the Government and Introducing of Popery and Arbitrary Power BEFORE The Lord Chief Justice SCROGGS c. At the KING's BENCH Bar at Westminster the 23th June 1680 Where he was Acquitted LONDON Printed for S. G and N. E. and are to be sold by Randal Taylor near Stationers-Hall 1681. THE TRYAL OF ROGER EARL of CASTLEMAINE ROGER PALMER Esque Earl of Castlemaine in the Kingdom of Ireland having been Arraigned at the Kings Bench Bar the Sixteenth of June 1680 for High Treason To which he Pleaded Not Guilty c. On Wednesday the 23th of June 1680 being appointed for his Trial the Court being sate and the usual Formalities perform'd the Lieutenant of the Tower delivered him into Court and then the said Court proceeded as followeth Clerk of the Crown Cryar Make Proclamation Proclamation for silence Cryer O yes Our Soveraign Lord the King doth strictly charge and command all manner of Persons to keep silence upon pain of Imprisonment O yes If any one can inform our Soveraign Lord the King the Kings Serjeant at Law the Kings Attourney General or this Inquest now to be taken of the High Treason whereof Roger Palmer Esq Earl of Castlemain in the Kingdom of Ireland stands Indicted let them come forth and they shall be heard for the Prisoner stands at the Bar upon his deliverance Clerk of the Crown Cryer Make an O yes Cryer O yes You good Men that are empannelled to enquire between our Soveraign Lord the King and Roger Palmer Esq Earl of Castlemain within the Kingdom of Ireland answer to your Names Clerk of the Crown Roger Palmer Esq Earl of Castlemain in the Kingdom of Ireland hold up thy hand These good Men that were lately called and now here appear are to pass between our Soveraign Lord the King and you upon your Life or Death if you challenge any of them you must speak as they come to the Book to be Sworn and before they are Sworn JURY Sir John Cutler Knight and Baronet Sir Reginald Foster Baronet Henry Herriott Esq Richard Cheney Esq Thomas Johnson Esq John Robert's Esq Francis Dorrington Esq Hugh Squire Esq Charles Good Esq John Pulford Esq Edward Claxton Esq Francis Mayhew Gent. Cryer O Yes Our Soveraign Lord the King doth strictly charge and command all manner of Persons to keep silence upon pain of Imprisonment C. of the Crown Roger Palmer Esq Earl of Castlemain in the Kingdom of Ireland hold up your hand You Gentlemen of the Jury that are now Sworn look upon the Prisoner and hearken to his charge You shall understand that he stands Indicted by the Name of Roger Palmer Esq Earl of Castlemain in the Kingdom of Ireland for that he as a false Traytor against our most Illustrious and Excellent Prince and Lord Charles the Second by the Grace of God of England Scotland France and Ireland King Defender of the Faith c. and his Natural Lord not having the Fear of God before his Eyes nor weighing the Duty of his Allegiance but being moved and seduced by the Instigation of the Devil his Cordial Love true due and Natural Obedience which true and Faithful Subjects of our said Soveraign Lord the King ought to bear towards him altogether withdrawing and contriving and with all his might intending to disturb the Peace and common Tranquility of this Kingdom and to bring and put our Soveraign Lord the King to Death and final Destruction and alter the true Worship of God within this Kingdom established to the Superstition of the Romish Church and to stir up and move War against our said Soveraign Lord the King within this Realm of England and to subvert the Government thereof the Twentieth day of June in the Thirtieth Year of the Reign of our said Soveraign Lord Charles the Second of England Scotland France and Ireland King Defender of the Faith c. at the parish of St. Giles in the Fields in the County of Midd. with divers other false Traitors to the Jurors unknown did traiterously imagine and intend the killing death and final destruction of our said Lord the King and to change and alter and utterly subvert the Ancient Government of this Kingdom and to depose and wholly to deprive our said Lord the King of his Crown and Government of this Realm of England and to extirpate the true Protestant Religion And to accomplish and fulfil the same most wicked Treasons and Traiterous Imaginations and Purposes aforesaid the said Roger Palmer Esq Earl of Castlemain in the Kingdom of Ireland and other false Traitors to the Jurors unknown the same Twentieth day of June in the Thirtieth Year aforesaid with force and Arms in the Parish of St. Giles in the Fields aforesaid in the County aforesaid Advisedly Devilishly Maliciously and Traiterously did assemble unite and gather themselves together and then and there Advisedly Devilishly Maliciously Subtily and Traiterously did consult and agree to bring our said Soveraign Lord the King to Death and Final Destruction and to deprive him of his Crown and Government of England and to Introduce and Establish the Religion of the Church of Rome in this Kingdom and the sooner to fulfil and accomplish the same most wicked Treasons and Traiterous imaginations and purposes aforesaid he then and there did Falsly Maliciously and Trayterously promise divers great Rewards and did pay divers Sums of Money to several Persons unknown and then and there falsly and traiter ously did write divers Notes to incite several other Persons to accomplish the Treasons aforesaid against the Life of our Soveraign Lord the King his Crown and Dignity and contrary to the form of the Statute in such Case made and provided Clerk of the Crown Upon this Indictment he hath been Arraigned and hath pleaded thereunto Not Guilty and for his Tryal he puts himself upon God and his Countrey which Countrey you are Your charge is to inquire Whether he be Guilty of the High Treason whereof he stands Indicted or not Guilty If you find him guilty you are to inquire What Goods and Chattles Lands and Tenements he had at the time when the High Treason was committed or at any time since If you find him not Guilty you are to say so and no more and hear your Evidence Cryer O yes If any one will give Evidence on the behalf of our Soveraign Lord the King against Roger Palmer Esq Earl of Castlemain in the Kingdom of Ireland let him come forth and he shall be heard for the Prisoner now stands at the Bar upon his deliverance M. Bonithon May
it please you my Lord and you Gentlemen of the Jury the Prisoner at the Bar stands Indicted for High Treason for that he intended to disturb the Peace within this Kingdom establish'd and to destroy and alter the Government and to bring the King to Death and Final Destruction and to alter our Religion to the superstition of the Church of Rome did on the Twentieth day of June in the Thirtieth Year of the Reign of our Soveraign Lord the King consult and treat with several other Persons and that he with these Persons did agree to destroy the King and alter the Religion and cause Rebellion and further to accomplish these Treasons he did promise and agree to pay several Accompts and deposite several Sums of Money and did likewise write and publish several Books To this he hath pleaded Not Guilty If we prove these things you are to find him Guilty Att. Gen. May it please your Lordship my Lord Castlemain here stands Indicted for High Treason that is for Designing to Murther the King and alter the Government and Law and this is but a parcel of the Plot which hath been carrying on a great while and many persons tried for it and some have suffer'd and been executed for it And my Lord we will give your Lordship Evidence This my Lord Castlemain hath at several times conspired the Death of the King and that he hath reproved persons for not doing it And my Lord he hath been in Consults among Jesuits where these Matters have been carried on and this whole Design hath been negotiated And my Lord Castlemain hath been consenting and agreeing to all these Matters And my Lord when the Trials were in hand it did appear upon those Trials there were many persons brought from St. Omers to be Witnesses against Dr. Oates to prove he was not in England at that time when he said in his Depositions that he did consult with the Jesuits and these persons my Lord Castlemain had the management and instruction of at that time And all along at the Old Baily my Lord Castlemain was present there and did countenance these persons and was an Intercessor for them These are but Branches and Circumstances what is material we will prove by Witnesses Art Gen. Come Doctor Oates Pray tell what you know Prisoner My Lord I have a long time wished for this day and your Lordship may very well remember it The reason why I have so much desired a Trial is because I thought it a means and the best means and the only means to shew to the World my Innocency and also to shew to the World how much I have been calumniated by this Charge L. C. J. What have you to say Have you any thing to say against Doctor Oates Prisoner No my Lord. I only say this here I am a Prisoner at the Bar and I have pleaded not Guilty and throw my self upon this Court and therefore I am very willing to hear what this man will say D. Oates My Lord I humbly move the Court Whether or no I may use my own Method L. C. J. Give your Charge we direct nothing D. Oates My Lord In the year 1677 I was sent ever into Spain by the Jesuits that were here in England where I remained for several months and transacted Business for them and my Lord I returned from Spain in November and brought several Letters from some English Fathers there among which there was one directed for my Lord Castlemain My Lord I did not deliver the Letter to him but my Lord the Contents of the Letter were to this effect L. C. J. How came you to see the Contents D. Oates My Lord I was at the writing of the Letter and so I did see the Contents of it L. C. J. Did the Priests shew it to you Or did you only see it yourself D. Oates No my Lord It was shewn me by them And the Contents of this Letter were That the Fathers in Spain were very zealous to concur with the Fathers here in England in the Design which was the Subversion of the Government altering the Religion and the Destruction of the King L. C. J. Was that in the Letter D. Oates No my Lord not in words at length L. C. J. What was as far as you know the very Expression of the Letter D. Oates The word Design my Lord. L. C. J. Only that to promote the Design D. Oates Yes my Lord And under that word we did comprehend all those things that is as we usually took it among one another L. C. J. Did you deliver this Letter to my Lord Castlemain D. Oates No my Lord I did not deliver this Letter but when I went to St. Omers we received an Account from my Lord Castlemain of his receipt of this Letter L. C. J. What did you do with it D. Oates I left it with the Provincial my Lord who was then Mr. Strange L. C. J. Was it not given to you to give it him D. Oates It was given me to give the Lord Castlemain but being then a stranger to him I was willing to send one of his own Messengers with it L. C. J. Where was my Lord D. Oates I can't tell my Lord I did not see him then I went over to St. Omers in December 77 or the latter end of November L. C. J. Where were you when you gave this Letter to the Provincial D. Oates I was in London my Lord. L. C. J. Where did you receive this Letter D. Oates In Spain My Lord at Valledolid of one Armstrong L. C. J. Who was it directed to D. Oates To my Lord Castlemain but I did not then know him and so I gave it the Provincial my Lord I went over to St. Omers in the latter end of November or the beginning of December 77 and after I had been there some few days there did arrive a Packquet from London to St. Omers in which there was a Letter from my Lord Castlemain L. C. J. To whom D. Oates To the Fathers of the Society of St. Omers in which my Lord Castlemain gave them an Account of a Letter that he had lately received from Spain L. C. J. How did you know the Contents of this Letter D. Oates My Lord I was Privy to their Letters L. C. J. Was you acquainted with my Lord Castlemains hand D. Oates My Lord I will give you an Account of that I did not know it then but only as it was generally said among us L. C. J. How was it subscribed D. Oates Castlemain My Lord and sometimes my Lord he subscribed himself Palmer L. C. J. How many Letters have you seen D. Oates Several Letters L. C. J. Was this the first D. Oates This was the first as near as I can remember And my Lord he gave an Account in that Letter that he had received a Letter from Spain and was glad the Fathers in Spain had so good an Opinion of his Integrity in the Caused L. C. J. Did
the Consult D. Oates No my Lord when we say the Consult we mean what was agreed on at that Consult not concerning these matters that were done Six Months before L. C. J. Mr. Oates Tell me when you mention the Design and the Consult Do not you alwaies mean the Death of the King and the bringing in Popery D. Oates Yes my Lord but the terms are not convertible For my Lord when we say the Consult there was something else done my Lord as that Consult which had not an absolute Relation to the Design and of that I will give your Lordship one instance as the sending Father Cary to Rome which they did in some Three Years L. C. J. Some trivial matters concerning their own Government but the thing you talk of is the same Consult and Design D. Oates When I speak of the word Design it was so taken among us and so received by my Lord Castlemain L. C. J. How can you say it was so received by him D. Oates Because he used the same word and answered us according to our Interpretation J. Jones My Lord he speaks of the Design thus There was a Design for the Killing the King there was a Design of the Priests and Fathers for it but saith he Afterwards there was a general Consultation and this Design came to be form'd by this general Consult which my Lord Castlemain as he thinks had no knowledge of till the time they met together in Lincolns-Inn Fields and afterward went and discours'd about it L. C. J. It is very fair that he doth not know that my Lord Castlemain had any knowledge before the Consult of this business but he says The Design upon which the Consult was that he might know which was to destroy the King and bring in Popery And he says My Lord Castlemain did understand this word Design in that sense they did because he answered their Letters according to their Interpretation of it How do you know he understood the word Design in its utmost capacity as you understood it D. Oates When we have our Words we have our Keys whereby we understand them But I will answer this Question to the satisfaction of the Gentlemen of the Jury My Lord he hath many times spoken in his Letters of introducing the Popish Religion and annext it to the word Design of promoting the Catholick Religion here in England L. C. J. Now methinks you have brought the word Design to something else than Killing the King D. Oates Yes my Lord The Subversion of Religion and the Government L. C. J. Did he put in Government Did he talk of bringing in the Catholick Religion and altering the Government D. Oates No my Lord I won't say that L. C. J. When we are examining concerning Mens lives we must be careful of their words in such matters D. Oates One part of my Evidence I have omitted Your Lordship did ask me how I came to know my Lord Castlemain's hand My Lord somtimes we received Letters from him subscribed Palmer and sometimes subscribed Castlemain sometimes some other Name which I may not remember and they were generally received as from him And I have seen my Lord Castlemain write for that Night as near as I remember it was Post-night L. C. J. At Fenwick's Chamber D. Oates At Fenwick's Chamber and my Lord Castlemain did write a Letter subscribed it and sealed it and I was fain to go to the General Post-House it was so late J. Jones What did he subscribe then D. Oates No my Lord I saw no more than the Superscription L. C. J. Then you did not see his Name to it D. Oates No my Lord. My Lord Castlemain did ask Why he had not Answers to such and such Letters For several Letters I had seen which were not of much moment L. C. J. I wish you had one that was of moment D. Oates It cannot be expected my Lord that I should have them L. C. J. My Lord ask him what you please Prisoner You say Mr. Oates you received Letters from me in Spain D. Oates I never said so Prisoner You saw Letters in Spain from me D. Oates Yes I have seen Letters in Spain that were from you Prisoner Look you Mr. Oates Pray let me ask you a Question you said this That you did not know me when you met me at the Consult D. Oates What Consult Prisoner At Fenwick's Chamber D. Oates I did not know you at Wild-house Prisoner There you met me first D. Oates There I met the Prisoner at the Bar. L. C. J. He says he did not know you at Wild-house but he came to know you by Langworth in Lincolns-Inn-Fields and then you went together to Fenwick's Chamber Prisoner Mr. Oates Did not you say that at Wild-house you did not know me nor I you L. C. J. He says he can't tell whether you knew him or no but he did not know you Prisoner Was I familiar with you D. Oates No my Lord. Prisoner Did I talk Treason at Wild-house D. Oates It was the Discourse of the day but I do not remember every particular of the Discourse but I remember what your Opinion was concerning the Rector of Liege and the Rector of Gant Prisoner Was there any thing about killing the King at Wild-house D. Oates Really my Lord I can't remember I wont charge it there because I am upon my Oath though I morally believe as to my self that there was discourse bad enough there Prisoner Mr. Oates Pray will you hear me then the acquaintance I had with you was by Mr. Langworth and then we went that Night to Fenwick's Chamber and there we staid very long and there we had all this Discourse D. Oates Yes Prisoner Look Mr. Oates Was there any by besides Mr. Langworth and Mr. Fenwick D. Oates Really my Lord I don't remember any body was by unless a Maid might come to fill a Cup of Drink or so Prisoner Mr. Oates Pray Mr. Oates did you and I ever meet together after that time D. Oates Really my Lord I can't be exact in that Prisoner Did you never see me nor Discourse with me after that time D. Oates I cannot recollect my self as to that I cannot remember L. C. J. He does not remember that ever he was with you afterwards Prisoner You don't know whether ever I discours'd with you afterwards D. Oates I don't remember Prisoner Very well Mr. Oates Look you Sir you don't remember that I ever had any Discourse with you after that time and no body was by but Mr. Fenwick and Mr. Langworth D. Oates As I remember Prisoner Was not there another Priest there D. Oates There is no body occurs to my Memory Prisoner Mr. Oates you brought me Letters from Spain D. Oates I brought a Letter from Spain directed to â—ou in 77. Prisoner Was I in Town or out of Town D. Oates I delivered it to the Provincial Prisoner You went over to Liege did not you see me there D. Oates No my Lord
I did not see you there I only went to wait upon a Gentleman that was a Priest afterwards that went to take orders Prisoner Did you not see me at Liege D. Oates No my Lord. Prisoner You were at Liege did you stay there D. Oates I lay there one Night Att. General Have you any thing to ask my Lord Prisoner Presently my Lord. J. Jones It is very reasonable my Lord should question you You own him to be the Lord Castlemain When was it you did first discover this business concernâ—â—g my Lord Castlemain D. Oates My Lord I did discover my Lord Castlemain to be in the Plot the Last Sessions of the Long â—arliament and I accused my Lord Castlemain this â—rinity Term was Twelve Months and my Lord Castlemain was committed for when Mr. Dangerfield came in and accused my Lord Castlemain I brought a Charge a second time against my Lord Castlemain J. Jones Did you discover all this then D. Oates I did charge him for having an hand in the Design in general J. Jones To the Parliament D. Oates Yes to the Parliament Prisoner You say when I assented to the Kings Death in Fenwick's Chamber that I said I should now find a time to be reveng'd D. Oates Pray my Lord don't put me to mention such reflecting Evidence Prisoner When you were before the King you did in pursuance of this speak of a Divorce D. Oates My Lord I will give Evidence as to that if that my Lord comes to be Indicted for his Priesthood L. C. J. My Lord may ask what Questions he shall think fit Att. General My Lord says he has said it and what he said in another place he is not to treat now of Prisoner Suppose I can prove him an Ill Man in any place is not that fit to be spoken of here Since he hath brought the King upon the Stage and since he hath accused me before the King and your Lordships of a Devorce I ask him whether he saw it D. Oates I will tell your Lordship what I said as to the Divorce I heard it discours'd of generally among the Fathers beyond Sea and this was some other part of the Discourse at Wild-house and I heard my Lord Castlemain say that he had been at great charg to carry on that business of the Divorce Prisoner At Wild-house D. Oates At Wild-house Now my Lord I took no notice of it because it was not my business But my Lord after that there was a Priests Chamber that was searched and there was the whole Case stated now what is become of the State of that Case my Lord I cannot tell L. C. J. By whom was that Case stated D. Oates There was a Letter found whereby my Lord Castlemain should have the matter directed in order to the carrying on the Divorce that was to be between him and his Wise Barbara Prisoner Did not you tell the King that you saw the Divorce in Strange's hand D. Oates My Lord I will tell you this I gave an Account to the King that I saw in Strange's hand an Acconnt of a Divorce that was between my Lord Castlemain and Barbara Dutcheis of Cleaveland Recorder My Lord if he ask too many Questions that don't relate to this matter it is impossible to give an Account of every particular Prisoner My Lords I humbly submit this Case Recorder Ask him what you said to such a man upon the Ninth of August was Twelve Month must he give an Account L. C. J. He must say he does not know Recorder Indeed it is reasonable that my Lord Castlemain should ask him some questions and that Mr. Oates should give him an Account Att. General My Lord will you give me leave to speak If he may ask questions about such forreign matters as this no man can justify himself L. C. J. This is not so mighty remote but use may be made of it Att. General If he should ask whether he were such a day at such an house and tell him yes and mistake the day any man may be catch'd thus Prisoner How can a man be catch'd in the Truth Att. General My Lord Castlemain may if he can catch him in any thing he gives in Evidence here Prisoner My Lord if your Lordship over-rule me I will say no more Mr. Atturney says I come to catch him I confess I do Att. General You should not ask him Forreign Questions L. C. J. He asks a plain Question why do you labour so much that he should not ask Whether he had seen the Divorce My Lord Castlemain I have askt the question for you Whether or no he said he had seen the Divorce and he does not remember whether he said so or no. Att. General My Lord I think with your Lordships leave that he is not bound to answer Questions that are not to the Evidence L. C. J. If so be he would come to make Application it may be well enough Att. General I say it for the Method of the Evidence my Lord that I would not have these Excursions Prisoner I desire your Lordship that I may say out what I have to say I say this that no man in the World that speaks truth can be catch'd neither will Mr. Atturney suffer me to catch him Att. General I say you have liberty to catch him in any thing that doth belong to the Evidence Prisoner I come to shew you the fitness of it to this Affair He comes and tells you among other Consults of Wild-house and my meeting him in Lincolns-Inn-Fields the recommendations of Mr. Langworth and going to Fenwicks Chamber where we talk'd of altering the Government and my assenting to kill the King and since you have brought the King upon the Stage I will refresh your Memory a little since you talk of revenging my self look you if you did not mention a Divorce to the King and also to my Lord Chief Justice Att. General My Lord you are under a mistake Prisoner Pray give me leave Mr. Atturney Att. General You make such Excursions into Forreign Matters Prisoner Mr. Oates you did say you saw a Divorce I ask you whether you saw a Divorce and where or whether you said so L. C. J. He says he does not remember he said so D. Oates I do not remember whether I said so or no my Lord I have it down but indeed I did not set my thoughts a-work Att. General He hath given you an Answer that may satisfie you J. â—aymond He hath Papers wherein he hath entred Memorandums to refresh his Memory but these Papers he hath not by him L. C. J. Then he may say he hath not Att. General That he hath already my Lord. L. C. J. Have you any more to say Prisoner I have my Lord if you will give me leave to write down two words Prisoner Mr. Oates You told my Lords the Judges that I did say I was at great expence about a Divorce Dr. Oates Yes Prisoner That is very well Mr. Oates Att.
General Call Mr. Dangerfield D. Oates was going out of the Court. Prisoner May Mr. Oates go out of the Court. Court Yes yes D. Oates I will be within call my Lord. Prisoner I only submit it to your Lordships Whether or no a Witness may go out of the Court D. Oates I will stay then Att. General Swear Mr. Dangerfield Prisoner Pray stay L. C. J. Why so Prisoner Here I am a Prisoner my Lords and submit it to your Lordships Whether or no Mr. Dangerfield who hath had the Censure of this Court may be a Witness Whether or no Council shall shew reasons to your Lordship whether he may speak or no. J. Jones You must shew your Exceptions that you have against him Prisoner My Exception is this That he was convicted of Felony that he broke Prison and was outlawed upon it Besides this my Lord he is a Stigmatick hath stood in the Pillory and was burnt in the hand Now I humbly beseech your Lordships that you will be pleased to hear what my Council can say and then my Lords if your over-rule I shall give place with all my heart L. C. J. I think it reasonable if you desire Council that they should be allowed to speak Att. General If your Lordship please when my Lords Exceptions appear J. Jones What are your Exceptions my Lord Prisoner That I told you before-hand he is an outlawed person he is convicted of Felony J. Jones When was he out-lawed Att. General In the 27th Year of the King and we say he hath a Pardon in the 30th Year of the King L. C. J. How do you prove he was burnt in the Hand my Lord Att. General When was he burnt in the Hand Prisoner Call Briscoe Att. General We bring a Pardon unto that and that will restore him A Record produced Att. General That Record we confess shew the Pardon shew the Pardon L. C. J. Now go to that for which he was burnt in the hand Att. General Here is a Pardon that extends to them all The Pardon Read Decimo tertio die Januarii Anno Regni c. L. C. J. This does not do it Att. General Yes my Lord it does L. C. J. Is that the Newgate Pardon Att. General Yes my Lord. L. C. J. We have had it in the Court. Att General Yes my Lord. L. C. J. And Felony and Outlawry is in it Att. General Yes my Lord. L. C. J. Where is that for which he was burnt in the hand Att. General For that we give an Answer he was received to the benefit of his Clergy and he was burnt in the hand and his Pardon is after that too L. C. J. So it is Att. General Then his Pardon answers them all L. C. J. Now you see my Lord you think Dangerfield ought not to be a Witness who hath gone through so many Pnnishments out-lawed for Felony and burnt in the hand for Felony Mr Atturney makes Answer we have a Pardon and by that he is restored as he says to be a Witness again If you desire Council to speak to this point Whether or no a man branded and burnt in the hand for Felony and afterwards is pardoned is capable of being a Witness I see no reason to deny it you Att. General If there be matter for Council to speak in that Case we must submit if your Lordship make it a doubt L. C. J. I do for my own part in this I am clear if a Man were Convicted of Perjury that no Pardon will make him a Witness because it is to do the Subject wrong A Pardon does not make a Man an Honest Man it takes off reproaches and the Law is wise in that the Law will not suffer endless contumelies to be heaped upon Men nor to be call'd perjured Rascalls and such things It is only to prevent upbraiding Language which tends to the breach of the Peace But in my Opinion if a Man stands Convicted in Court for Perjury no Pardon can ever make him a Witness and set him upright again But that is a different Case from this we are upon this single Case Whether a Man that is burnt in the hand for Felony whether a Pardon can set him right or no For this I make more doubtful than the other for a Man may be that hath committed a Robery would be afraid to forswear himself for though one is a great the other is a greater Sin and that in the Subject matter which considered I think it reasonable to allow my Lord Council to speak to that single point That a Person being burnt in the hand for Felony and afterwards Pardoned whether he is capable of being a Witness Prisoner Then I do name Mr. Jones Mr. Saunders and Mr. Darnal L. C. J. Very well Mr. Saunders was call'd but was not in Court L. C. J. Are you prepared Mr. Jones to speak Mr. Jones No my Lord. J. Jones My Lord do you except against that one particular Prisoner I stand upon both his being Pillored and Burnt in the hand L. C. J. Will you admit that he stood in the Pillory Att. General I know nothing of it L. C. J. I will tell you my Lord you will see whether it be necessary to protract this or no for your Council will hardly undertake to argue unprepared about this Point and if the Tryal should be Adjourn'd it would be very troublesome I think it the duty of my Place to discharge my Conscience for you and against you as the matter shall fall out and if so be that you should insist upon it and he be capable of being a Witness supposing it so yet I must say you may give in the Evidence of every Record of the Conviction of any sort of Crimes he hath been guilty of and they shall be Read They say last day there were Sixteen if there were an Hundred they should be Read against him and they shall all go to invalidate any Credit that is to be given to any thing he shall Swear Prisoner My Lord I humbly submit my self to your Lordship Sixteen we have I bring but Six You shall have them Mr. Atturney when you please L. C. J. My Lord if you think it worth you while to put it to Council to argue Whether he may be a Witness or whether you think it may be as well for you supposing he be a Witness the producing those things against him or the Records of those Crimes that he hath been Convicted of whether that will be as well for you or no I leave it to your self to do as you think best Mr. Darnal I conceive with submission to your Lordship that he cannot be a Witness L. C. J. Are you prepared to speak to it now Mr. Darnal My Lord I am ready to offer somewhat to your Lordship why I conceive he ought not to be Sworn but I desire first that the Pardon may be Read because many Persons and Offences are comprized in it L. C. J. It is
matter if you had any body to prove that this Gentleman came alone but that is still but one mans testimony Prisoner But here is Confirmation to his Evidence that he could not invent it Att. Gen. You had Sixteen once but the contrary was proved and believed and so it may be again Prisoner Call Mr. Gregson and Rigby Mr. Gregson were not you Landlord to Mr. Oates before the Plot was discovered How long before the Plot did he lie at your House L. C. J. What time Gregson A Week before Easter 77. J. Raymond When did he go away from you Sir Gregson The Sunday after Easter day J. Raymond When did you see him again Gregson He came to me about All Saints J. Raymond The same year Gregson Yes Dr. Oates Who paid for my Quarters Pray ask him that my Lord. Gregson He paid for it himself Dr. Oates Did not Mr. Fenwick pay for it Gregson He did after you came from St. Omers Dr. Oates My Lord when I came last from St. Omers I went directly to his House Prisoner Was not he in a poor condition Gregson He was then indifferently poor Prisoner My Lord This is only to prove his condition Dr. Oates My Lord I had only what the Jesuits allow'd me L. C. J. You had nothing but what they allow'd you Dr. Oates Nothing else my Lord. J. Jones They allow'd you a very scanty living Prisoner Call Mr. Littcott Mr. Littcott Do you know any thing about a Divorce L. C. J. What should he know Prisoner Pray my Lord don't discourage me J. Raymond But you must not ask things that are not to the purpose Littcott My Lord It was morally impossible there should be a Divorce L. C. J. Was there any endeavour by my Lord concerning it Littcott There was no such Design L. C. J. How was that But pray mind you will be morally not believed else Do you know my Lord used any endeavours in order to obtain a Divorce Recorder That is all that he says He never knew any thing Prisoner I only say this my Lord Mr. Oates comes here and says That he heard me say That I did spend a great deal of money Now if I satisfie the Court that I never spent a Farthing towards a Divorce L. C. J. If he had said Your Lordship laid out Sums of money then it had been an Answer to that if you could prove you had not Prisoner You know I stand here accused for a great Crime pray give me leave J. Raymond If it were a matter of moment we would Prisoner Pray my Lord hear me here is a Man says I spent a great deal of money about a Divorce I come to tell your Lordship That this very man before your Lordships and also before the King and if your Lordships have forgot it I will shew you Witnesses that he spake it before the King and before the House of Commons that I did actually sue out a Divorce Now I will shew my Lord that I neither could nor did go about it L. C. J. We are not to take notice of that now If he did say a false thing before the House of Commons we cannot take notice of it now For we cannot go to try whether he said so and whether that be true or false Prisoner I humbly begg my Lord If this man that is upon his Oath hath sworn before the King that he did actually see the Divorce and I prove that it was impossithat he should see the Divorce because it was impossible to get a Divorce L. C. J. What then J. Raymond You must not be permitted to prove that it is not pertinent to the Question Prisoner My Lords with humble submission to you he hath told me this before your Lordships that I spent a great deal of money about a Divorce L. C. J. My Lord You will be satisfied when we have acquainted you what the ordinary Proceedings of a Court of Justice are in this Nature what is and what is not to be admitted If you should come to prove Mr. Oates had falsly sworn a thing in another Court and five or six Witnesses shall come and say it is not true we are not to hearken to it The reason is this first you must have him perjured and we are not now to try Whether that thing sworn in another place be true or false Because that is the way to accuse whom you please and that may make a man a Liar that cann't imagine this will be put to him and so no mans testimony that comes to be a Witness shall leave himself safe And this is another Case If he swore in another place what is contradictory to what he says now then it is proper If you could prove that he had sworn in another place that he never saw you it is very proper but now to us he says That he doth not remember whether ever he had seen a Divorce or that you had sued out a Divorce All that he remembers is That you said you had expended a great deal of money about a Divorce and that is all he testifies here Prisoner My Lord my Evidence against Mr. Oates is this That he waves what he said before when I came to ask him and says I don't remember Now my Lord if he lies in one thing he may in another J. Raymond No man can remember all the things that ever he did in his life Prisoner I have Witnesses to appeal to to witness every thing and I represent it here to you that I would with all my heart have Indicted him of Perjury but for Mr. Atturney General for I Imploy'd Two to Attend the Clerk of the Peace for Copies of the Indictments against Mr. Langborn and Mr. Ireland they did come to the Clerk of the Peace saith the Clerk of the Peace I can't do it without Mr. Atturney's Authority My Lord saith he I would give them you with all my heart but I must have leave from the Table Att. General No my Lord I told you I would not give it you without you had an Order from the King and the Council did not think fit to give it you Prisoner I think this is a little pertinent J. Jones How doth any thing that your Lordship excepts against in this Gentleman's Testimony contradict it self All that you accuse him of is That Mr Oates had said he heard you say you had spent a great deal of Money about a Divorce Prisoner I only shew if you are pleased to hear it that he reported to the King that he actually saw the Divorce J. Jones That agrees well enough with what he says now Prisoner He said so in your Lordships hearing L. C. J. I don't remember it If I did I would speak of it I don't remember it upon my word J. Raymond I protest I don't remember a word J. Jones In the Court did he say it J. Raymond Here we are all three that were present I protest I don't remember it but