Count's Lodgings Dr. Harder Yes upon Saturday morning Mr. Williams Then he came along with you from the Count's Lodgings Dr. Harder Yes to my House Mr. Williams And you parted with him there Dr. Harder Yes the Captains man took him away with him Mr. Williams That was Berg wa'nt it Dr. Harder Yes Then this Evidence was interpreted to the Jury Mr. Craven He desires the Jury should know what the Doctor said about his Sickness L. Ch. J. Let it be repeated to them Mr. Craven He desires to know whether he may not speak it in French himself L. Ch. J. No the Interpreter must do it which was done My Lord would you ask any more Questions of the Doctor Count Conn No more Questions but them I have asked Sir Fr. Win. Call Thomas Howgood who was sworn Mr. Williams Pray did you sell any Sword to the Count Mr. Howgood I sold a Sword to the Governor a broad Horseman's Sword Mr. Williams When was this Mr. Howgood On Saturday was fortnight Mr. Williams What time was it that he bespoke it Mr. Howgood He bespoke it half an hour after six at night Mr. Williams What did he say to you when he bought it Mr. Howgood He said he would call for it about eight a Clock at night when he came from the Play Mr. Williams What kind of Sword was it Mr. Howgood An Horseman's Sword as broad as two fingers such as the Gentlemen of the Guards wear Sir Fr. Win. When he came for the Sword what said he Mr. Howgood He was angry it was not done and I told him that I would send it to him quickly Sir Fr. Win. Where was it sent Mr. Howgood To the Governor's Lodgings at the Academy Mr. Williams Now my Lord we will call several Persons that were privy to the concealing of this Gentleman that can give you a better account Richard Hays and Robert French Robert French appeared and was sworn Sir Fr. Win. Pray will you tell my Lord what you know of the Count 's concealing himself and changing his Habit. Mr. French I never saw him my Lord before I came here in Court but it seems he did lodg in my House three or four days Sir Fr. Win. How long is it since Mr. French Between three weeks and a month ago just ten days before the Murder Sir Fr. Win. What Name did he go by then Mr. French I did not know his Name Sir Fr. VVin. Who used to resort to him at that time L. Ch. J. You say Sir you saw him not what company did come to him Mr. French I did not see him indeed Sir Fr. VVin. Pray did Capt. Vratz come to him to your House Mr. French He lodged with him all the time Sir Fr. VVin. You say you know Capt. Vratz was there Mr. French Yes Mr. VVilliams Did Dr. Harder use to come to him Mr. French Yes several times a day Mr. VVilliams What Name did he enquire for him by Mr. French The Doctor took the Lodging and it was for a stranger I heard no Name at all Interpreter My Lord desires to know whether you did not suspect he took Physick in the House Mr. French I suppose the Doctor did give you an account of that I don't know that he did Interpret Did not your Maid know of any such thing Mr. French My Maid is here she will give you an account Sir Fr. VVin. Call Ann Prince who was sworn Pray do you acquaint my Lord what you know of Count Conningsmark whether ever you saw him at your Masters House in the Hay market Prince Yes he lodged there Mr. VVilliams When Prince He came thither last Friday was a month Mr. VVilliams How long did he stay there Prince Till VVednesday Mr. VVilliams At that time who used to frequent his Company Prince I know no Body but the Doctor that used to come to him Mr. VVilliams What Name did he go by Prince No Name at all as I know of they did not ask for him by any Name Mr. VVilliams Did the Captain use to come to him L. Ch. J. Her Master says he did lie there Prince Yes he used to lodg there Mr. VVilliams Did the Captain give him any Physick L. Ch. J. No but the Doctor did Sir Fr. VVin. He only asks a merry Qustion L. Ch. J. But we are now upon the Life and Death of a man pray let us have those Questions asked that are serious not such light things as are permitted in ordinary Cases Sir Fr. VVin. Now my Lord we will call Francis VVatts Mr. Craven Maid my Lord asks whether he did not take a Vomit in your House Prince Not that I know of Then Francis Watts was sworn L. Ch. J. How old is the Child Fr. VVatts Fifteen Years old last Christmass L. Ch. Baron Ask him whether he understands what an Oath is Mr. Thynne He was sworn before the King and Council L. Ch. Baron If he were sworn before the Council he may give Evidence here sure Sir Fr. VVin. Were you at the Counts Service at any time VVatts Yes Sir Fr. VVin. How long VVatts I was with him eleven days I came to him upon the Friday Sir Fr. VVin. How long was it before the Death of Mr. Thynne VVatts I think it was ten days before the Death of Mr. Thynne Sir Fr. VVin. What was your Employment with him VVatts His Boy to wait upon him Sir Fra. Winn. Did you lye in the same Lodging Watts No at my Fathers Sir Fr. Winn. What was the Agreement between your Father and the Count Watts Six pence a day and my diet Sir Fr. Winn. What Company did you observe came to the Count's Lodgings Watts That Gentleman there in the black Perriwig Sir Fr. Winn. Was he often with your Master Watts Yes every day Sir Fr. Winn. How many Lodgings had he while you were with him Watts Three one in the Hay-market and one in Rupert-street and then the last in St. Martins Mr. Williams Thus Child Do you remember the time of killing Mr. Thynne Watts Yes Mr. Williams Were you in your Master's Service then Watts Yes I was Mr. Williams Who was in your Master's Company that morning before Mr. Thynne was killed Watts I came up as I used to do in the morning to my Master and he aked me what was the matter with the bustle in the Street and I told him some body was taken upon suspicion for killing Esq Thynne Sir Fr. Wynn. That was on the Monday morning but the Sunday morning before what Company did you observe there then Watts I cannot tell any thing exactly of the Sunday morning Sir Fr. Wynn. Was Captain Vratz there Watts I can't exactly remember Sir Fra. Winn. What time in the Evening was it reported Mr. Thynne was kill'd Watts About eight a clock Sir Fra. Winn. Can you tell who brought the first news Watts One of my Lady Seymour's Maids who was telling the People of it below Sir Fra. Winn. Did you observe any body come to
degrees Mr. Vandore Yes my Lord I will L. Ch. Just Don't read all the Circumstantials but only the substance of the Indictment Then the Clerke of the Crown went near the Bar and dictated to the Interpreter deliberately who Interpreted it to the Prisoners L. Ch. Just Well you have told them the substance of it that they are Indicted for killing Mr. Thynn Mr. Vandore Yes L. Ch. Just Well what says the first man Cl. of Cr. I asked him if he be Guilty of the Murder whereof he stands Indicted and he says he is not Guilty L. Ch. Just Does he say so Mr. Vandore Yes he says he is not Guilty L. Ch. Just Why now tell him the Formality that he must put himself upon the Jury here Then Sir Nathaniel Johnson was Sworn Interpreter L. Ch. Just Ask him this Question Tell him he is accused of the Murder of Mr. Thomas Thynn ask him if he be Guilty or not Guilty Mr. Vandore He says he is not Guilty my Lord. I ask'd him just now L. Ch. Just. Then Sir Nathaniel Johnson if you can make him to understand it tell him that our manner of Tryal here is by Twelve men and that is by putting himself upon the Country and therefore ask him how he will be tryed Tell him that the method is by saying By God and the Countrey Sir N. Johnson My Lord he is a very dull kind of man he knows not how to Answer nor what to say nor won't say any thing that is the truth of it L. Ch. Just Ask him if he be willing to be tryed after the manner of the English Sir N. Johnson Yes he says he is willing to be tryed according to the fashion of the English L. Ch. Just North. He hath pleaded not Guilty and the other follows of Course L. Ch. Just Ask the other the Captain the same thing Sir N. Johnson He desires a French Interpreter for he speaks French L. Ch. Just. Surely here are enough People that understand French but ask him if he does not understand English Sir N. Johnson He can understand some he says L. Ch. Just Then ask him whether he be Guilty or not Sir N. Johnson He says he is not Guilty my Lord. L. Ch. Just. Now ask Mr. Stern but first ask the Captain how he will be Tryed Sir N. Johnson He says he will be tryed by God and half his own Country and half English L. Ch. Just He shall have his Request Sir N. Johnson He desires one thing further L. Ch. Just Look you Sir Nathaniel Johnson you must tell him this he shall be tryed by half Foreiners and half English that is it I suppose he desires Sir N. Johnson My Lord he desires that there may be none of the Jury that are any thing a Kindred or Relation to Mr. Thomas Thynn nor any particular Friend of his and he is satisfied L. Ch. Just No there shall not we will take care of that Now ask Mr. Stern then the like Question Sir N. Johnson My Lord he says he is not Guilty L. Ch. Just Ask him too how he will be Tried Whether by a Jury Sir N. Johnson He says hee 's content to be Tried as the others are by half Strangers and half English L. Ch. Just Now then ask my Lord Conningsmark what he says Mr. Thynn He speaks English my Lord. L. Ch. Just But not well enough may be to understand the whole L. Ch. Just North. Sir Nathaniel What does he say Sir N. Johnson My Lord he says it is a Concern of his Life and therefore he desires he may have not only one Interpreter but others He desires he may have two or three that they may make no Mistake L. Ch. Just Very well Sir N. Johnson He says that I understand the Dutch Language but his Life and Honour are concerned and therefore he would have three or four L. Ch. Just. Who would he have Sir N. Johnson Sir Tho. Thynn said they had one that was brought by them Mr. Thynn That is Vandore who is sworn already L. Ch. Just Look you Sir Nathaniel tell my Lord if he pleases he shall have a French Interpreter for I know he speaks that Language very well Sir N. Johnson My Lord he says That High Dutch is his Natural Language and he can express himself best in that Then one Vanbaring was called for by the Count but did not appear L. Ch. Bar. Sir N. Johnson You must ask the Count whether he be Guilty of the Indictment as Accessory before the Fact Sir N. Johnson I have asked my Lord and Not Guilty he answers Cl. of the Cr. How will you be Tried Sir N. Johnson He says he will be Tried by God and half his own Countrey or half Foreigners and half English and he desires they may be Persons of some Quality as they use to Treat Persons of his Quality and Strangers L. Ch. Just. There shall be such Strangers tell him You have Merchants of good Account I suppose upon this Pannel Under-Sheriffe Yes my Lord they are all such Sir N. Johnson He desires he may be Tried distinctly from the others L. Ch. Just That cannot be But look you Sir Pray tell my Lord this That though the Evidence must be given and the Jury must be charged all together yet in this Case we will distinguish his Case to the Jury if there be occasion L. Ch. Bar. And his Evidence will come distrinct Mr. Vandore My Lord he asks this Question of your Lordship and this Honourable Court if it be agreeable and according to the Justice of this Nation that my Lord may be allowed two or three days Delay because he is to prepare Himself and Witnesses for his Tryal Sir N. Johnson My Lord he says this his Witnesses are not prepared and he not having had time to recollect himself so as to fit himself for his defence therefore he begs the favour of the Court that he may have a day or two's time to recollect himself He says he is to answer Circumstances with Circumstances my Lord he says he has some Witnesses as to Circumstances that are very material to answer such Circumstances as are brought against him he does not understand the Law my Lord nor has had no time to have any Council to inform himself L. Ch. Just. You must tell him this That which he is charged with is matter of Fact that none can instruct him in but himself Council can do him no good in such a case as this Sir N. Johnson My Lord he says the Matters that are objected against him are only Circumstances my Lord and they require an Answer which he can do by other Circumstances and he desires time to re-collect himself two or three days respite he desires if it were but a little time a day or two Mr. Thynne My Lord our Witnesses are all ready and the Counsel instructed and wait here to go on L. C. J. North. Look you pray will you tell him When the
Tryal is once begun the Jury can neither eat nor drink till they have given their Verdict that is the Law and we can't change the Law therefore we cannot allow him the time he desires He knows what he is Accused of and has known it a good while and has had time to recollect himself and prepare himself Sir N. Johns My Lord he says the Jury are not yet together nor charged with him and therefore till the Jury are charged he thinks he may have time if your Lordship please to allow it L. C. J. Look you you must tell him that he is to understand that here is but one Indictment against the Principals and himself and we cannot Try this by piece-meals we cannot Try the Principals now and my Lord Coningsmark another time Sir N. Johns If it must be so he says he must throw himself upon your Lordship he hopes he shall have nothing but what is just and fair and he hopes your Lordship will be of Counsel to him as the Fashion of this Countrey is if any thing arises of Matter of Law he desires he may have the Advantage of it And if he can't have a day or two he says the Innocency of his Case will protect him Count Coningsmark knowing how Innocent he is won't stick for a day or two but he will be ready to be Tryed as your Lordship shall think fit he has Innocence on his side and that will protect him L. C. J. Let my Lord know that we will be careful in Examining all things that concern him Sir N. Johns He says he does not fear it my Lord having to do with such Honourable Persons nor doubt it at all L. C. J. Then Swear a Jury But look you my Lord Coningsmark consider this As the Gentlemen of the Jury come to be Sworn if you do dislike any of them you may except against them Sir N. Johns My Lord he says being altogether a Stranger here in England and not knowing any of the Persons he begs the favour of the Bench that he may have the Names of those that are Returned of the Jury and a little time to consider of it L. C. J. That we cannot do All we can do for you is we will take as much care as we can that you may have indifferent Persons and Persons of Quality L. C. J. North. Pray tell him the Law gives him the Priviledge of a peremptory Challenge Sir N. Johns He says my Lord he does not know who they are but they may be Persons that are touched and may have something of evil Will or Spleen against him His Father served against the King of Denmark and against the Poles and the Papists and his Father was a Protestant and served the Protestant Cause L. C. J. What Countrey-men are they Mr. Sheriff Under-Sheriff They are French and Dutch most of them I do not believe there is ever a Dane amongst them L. C. J. We will call all French-men if he had rather have them than Dutch Sir N. Johns He would very gladly have them all High Dutch if not that he may have some L. C. J. I thought he had excepted against the Dutch Sir N. Johnson No against the Danes for his Father in the Wars burnt their Towns L. C. J. Examine them as they come to the Book If there be any of the Roman Catholick Religion and don't let any such be Sworn Mr. Sher. Pilkington There is none such amongst them I dare say L. C. J. Sir Nat. Johnson tell my Lord he shall have no Roman Catholicks at all Sir N. Johns He thanks your Lordship He desires he may have the Pannel to look upon and he hopes that is an easie Favour L. C. J. Let him have the Pannel if it will do him any good He is a Stranger satisfie him in what we can Which was delivered to him and he looked it over L. C. J. Tell him as the Jury is called he shall have every one of the Outlandish-men and English-men brought before him Sir N. Johnson My Lord he thanks you for this favor L. Ch. Baron Sir Nath. Johnson tell the Count They call first an English-man then a Foreigner and they shall be brought to view L. C. J. Pray have you told the other persons that their time to challenge is before the Jury is sworn Sir N. Johnson The Polander says he can challenge none because he knows none L. C. J. What say the rest Mr. Vaudore They say they know no body and can except against no body Cl. of Cr. Call Sir Will. Roberts Who appearing stood up L. C. J. My Lord Coningsmark there is the Fore-man Sir N. Johnson He has nothing to say against him L. C. J. Then hold him a Book and Swear him Which was done Cl. of Cr. Call Mr. Downing Interpreter He says he is no Foreigner L. C. J. Then he must not be sworn Cl. of Cr. Moses Charas Who appeared Interpret He has nothing to say against him But he himself says he does not speak English but he desires to speak French Cl. of Cr. Then tell him in French he must lay his Hand on the Book and be sworn and hearken to his Oath Sir Fr. Winnington We challenge him for the King L. C. J. For what Cause Sir Fr. Winnington My Lord we take it that we need not shew any Cause unless there be any want of the Number in the Panel L. C. J. Then we must do him right and tell him what Advantage the Law gives him Tell my Lord you that understand English that this Gentleman is challenged for the King and if the King shew any good cause for it he must not be sworn else he must And the way for him to cause the King's Councel to shew their Cause if he desire it is to challenge all the rest Mr. Williams We wave our Challenge for the reason why we challenged him was because he did not understand English which will be no reason at all Then he was Sworn Cl. of Cr. Sir Henry Ingoldsby Sir N. Johnson He challenges him my Lord. Cl. of Cr. Sir William Gulston Sir N. Johnson He excepts against him my Lord. L. Ch. J. Does he challenge him in respect of what I said to him about the Outlandish Gentlemen that the King is to shew cause Or how does he challenge him Interpret My Lord he says he hears he is a Friend to Mr. Thynne L. C. J. Well let him be passed by then Cl. of Cr. Sir John Musters Who did not appear Sir N. Johnson He says my Lord he only desires indifferent persons Cl. of Cr. Henry Herbert Esq Sir N. Johnson He challenges him Cl. of Cr. Richard Paget Esq Sir N. Johnson He desires to see him L. C. J. Let him be brought into the middle that he may look upon the Prisoners Interpret He has nothing to say against him Then he was Sworn Cl. of Cr. James Bucgone Interpret He excepts against him Cl. of Cr. Claudius Derolee Interpret
And said I 't is the most barbarous thing that ever was done Certainly says my Lord this Mr. Thynne must have Correspondence and Commerce with some Lady that this Captain knew that belonged to the Court or he would never have done it As for the Polander I told him that he had confessed he wept mightily With that my Lord seemed very much concerned and took up his Clothes and bit them and sat awhile up but was very much discomposed and then desired to lye down Sir Fran. Winn. That was when you told him the Polander had confessed Mr. Kid. Yes my Lord was mightily altered in his Countenance Sir Fran. Winn. Did you at the first time that you seized him charge him with the Murder Mr. Kid. No I did not Sir Fran. Winn. Was he in a Black Perriwig Mr. Kid. His Cap fell off and his Perriwig just as I came to him Sir Fran. Winn. Set up Mr. Gibbons Pray will you tell what passed Mr. Gibbons My Lord Assoon as ever he came to shore I walked by him and gave him a little kind of a justle and my reason was to see whether he had not a black Coat under his Campaign I walked close to him just in this manner as he walked along so he turns about again and went down to the Water side and asked the Water-men Watermen Have you stowed your Boat he answered Yes Then come away said he so soon as he came back again I catched him fast hold by the Arm and the first word he said to me was What do you come to Rob me said I my Lord you are my Prisoner and I told him I was the King's Messenger that had waited there several days for him holding of him very hard whether that was the occasion of it or the Waterman that were on the other side of him he dropped down his Sword between his Leggs but when I named his Name he gave a little start and his Perriwig dropped off of his Face We went up the Street to the Mayor and the People crowding about us were very rude and very rugged and he desired he might be well used We did all we could to keep the People from him we went up to the Mayor's House and when we came there I desired he might be searched whether he had any Arms He said he had none and there was none Sir Fran. Winn. When you had the Custody of him whither did you carry him Mr. Gibbons We carried him to the Mayor's House and after we removed him from his House to an Inn. Sir Fran. Winn. What did you do the next Day Mr. Gibbons We stayed there about some 2 or 3 Hours After an hour or half an hours time near upon an hour my Lord came to me and asked me my Name and he said the reason was that after his Trouble was over he would give me thanks for my Civility to him Captain Sinkleer who stood by gave him my Name before I could that it was Gibbons Yes said I my Name is Gibbons and I belong to the Duke of Monmouth why says he the Duke of Monmouth has no Command now and therefore how could I take him by his Order My Lord said I I do not apprehend you by his Order you have killed a very good Friend of mine and had not Providence ordered it otherwise you had like to have killed a more particular Friend and a Master So my Lord he seemed to be very sorry at that but says he I don't think they would have done any harm to the Duke of Monmouth Sir Fran. Winn. What else did he say Mr. Gibbons I think I have told you all that is Material Sir Fran. Winn. Were you in the Boat at any time and gave him any Account of the Man's having Confessed what did he say to it Mr. Gibbons Sir I was not there nor I did not come up in the same Boat with him Mr. Williams Did he mention any thing about a stain to his Blood Mr. Gibbons I ask your pardon he did so Mr. Williams What did he say Mr. Gibbons Says he it is a Stain upon my Blood but one good Action in the Wars or one Lodging upon a Counterscarp will wash away all that L. C. Justice What did he say was a Stain upon his Blood Mr. Gibbons My Lord If you please I will tell you As I said he asked me my Name because he would come to give me thanks for my Civility after his Trouble was over the Captain being quicker than I told him my Name Yes Sir said I 't is Gibbons and I belong to the Duke of Monmouth said he he has no Command now how could you come upon his Order said I I do not come upon his Command but you have killed a very good Friend of mine and a Country-man and if Providence had not ordered it otherwise you had killed a more particular Friend of mine and a Master that I had served many years said he I don't think they would have done the Duke of Monmouth any Injury after that he walked up and down a while and then said he 't is a stain upon my Blood but one good Action in the Wars or Lodging upon a Counterscarp will wash away all that The Mayor was in the Room and several others Sir Fran. Winn. Pray Sir one thing more when you did speak to him of Confession did he say any thing to you about Captain Vratz Mr. Gibbons Sir he was only asking of me how things were what the people said or some such thing I was not forward to tell him at first but afterwards I did tell him that the Captain had made a Confession though it was a thing I did not know then Says he I do not believe the Captain would confess any thing L. C. Justice Did he say so Mr. Gibbons Yes he did to the best of my remembrance Sir Fran. Winn. We have done with our evidence my Lord. L. C. Justice My Lord Coningsmarke will you ask him any thing Count Coningsmarke No. L. C. Justice Then the next thing is you heard the Evidence that is given against you Now you must come to your defence I will put you in mind of some things my Lord which things it will concern you to give some Accompt of It is here laid to your Charge That you were Accessory to this Murder of Mr. Thynne and that you were the person that directed and designed it And these Evidences there are against you that you were cognizant of this and that you were the Person that designed this That you came here into England about a fortnight or 3 weeks before the death of Mr. Thynne that Captain Vratz who was one of them that killed him came with you that he lay at your Lodging that he was constantly with you that you lay Incognito there and private would not be known what your name was that you shifted Lodgings from time to time that Borosky the Polander came over by your
Can't he give an account of it himself Mr. Williams No my Lord his Evidence must be Interpreted to them by the Interpreter L. C. Justice The Doctor 's Evidence hath been heard already about the same matter Sir N. Johnson He desires my Lord to know this whether he may not say the fame things over again to the Jury in French there are a great many Persons of quality that understand it and they will see whether he speak true L. C. Justice Let him if he pleases Sir Fran. Winn. But then my Lord I hope that your Lordship will tell the Jury it goes for nothing without Proof Then the Count spake to the Jury in French L. C. Justice My Lord I do not know whether the Gentlemen that are of your right hand heard you or not Jury-man We understand not French Then the Count spake it in Dutch Interpreter He says if it had not been for the great stormy Weather the Polander had been sooner in London for he sent for him before He says the Letters go from Strasburgh to Hamburgh in 7 days and that most commonly Ships do come from thence in 8 days but in a great deal less time then the Polander came over in And he says that he writ 4 Months before to setch the Polander over and he might have been long ere now if it had not been for the Weather L. C. Justice Then my Lord I would ask you some more Questions which it concerns you to Answer Upon what occasion did you make your discourse of Mr. Thynne's death to Mr. Hanson Had you any discourse with him and upon what occasion Sir N. Johnson My Lord he says in common Discourses 't is impossible to give an Accompt of the Discourse or remember the occasion of it so long ago L. C. Justice Ask him if he had any quarrel with Mr. Thynne Or knew Mr. Thynne Sir N. Johnson He says my Lord that he never had any quarrel with Mr. Thynne nor to the best of his remembrance with these eyes never saw Mr. Thynne L. C. Justice Then I ask you this my Lord Did you ever hear Mr. Thynne had married my Lady Ogle before you last came into England Interpreter He says he never heard of it till he was going to Strasburgh and then all the whole Town did talk of it L. C. Justice How long is that ago Interpreter Half a year ago L. C. Justice Then it was before his last coming into England Sir Fr. Winn. My Lord his discourse with Mr. Hanson was not when he was last in Town but before L. C. Justice Then pray ask him this What occasion he had to ask the Boy upon Sunday Whether Horses might ride about the Town of a Sunday Interpreter He says my Lord this is a very strange thing That he should go and ask a Scullion-Boy Whether people might ride on Sundays when he himself over and over again has rid upon Sundays to Hide-Park as many Persons of quality do L. C. Justice Has he any body to prove it Sir N. Johnson Here is Major Ogelthorpe who with divers other Gentlemen testified they had seen him riding diverse times on Sundays in Hide-Parke L. C. Justice Then that Question signifies nothing there could be nothing in that Question Sir N. Johnson My Lord he desires that I may be examined concerning this Boy of what I heard by chance from the Boy himself and I will give you an account of it upon my Faith and Reputation L. C. Justice Do so Sir Nathaniel say what you can say Sir N. Johnson My Lord I having had the honour to serve a while under my Lord's Father I was desirous knowing the honour of the Family and bearing a great respect to it to do my Lord all the reasonable Service I could So hearing my Lord was taken and in Newgate I went to wait upon him and coming there Mr. Richardson told me there was a little Boy waited at the Count's door for his Wages as he said So I spake to the Boy and asked him what does thou stay for he told me for his Wages Said I certainly my Lord will pay you his Wages how long have you serv'd him said he a little while and then said I if you lived with him what do you know of this business And then of himself he began and told me Only this I know that Vratz was in my Master's Chamber that night and the Polander that Night went out with a pair of Boots under his Arm and more then this I do not know Said I. Boy who do you serve Says he I have no Master at present but then of his own accord he told me Sir Thomas Thynne had promised him a place and in the mean time I am says he to go to serve my Lord Privy-Seal so my Lord gave him Twenty Shillings for his Wages Interpreter My Lord desires the Boy may be asked whether he did not go to fetch Physick L. C. Justice Ask him where is the Boy Watts No I do not remember it L. C. Justice Now you should put the Count in mind Sir Fran. Winn. We observe what a sort of Interpreter Sir Nath. Johnson is He speaks more like an Advocate than an Interpreter he mingles Interpreter and Witness and Advocate together I don't know what to make of him L. C. Justice The Count had taken Physick that day Sir Thomas Thynne My Lord I desire to be heard I never spake to the Boy in all my Life Mr. Thynne Nor I. But he gave the same Testimony he gives now before the King and Council L. C. Justice Look you Sir Thomas it does not concern you at all to speak to that there is no reflection made upon you in it But my Lord Conningsmarke it will concern you a little to shew upon what occasion Captain Vratz came to you that Night that Mr. Thynne was killed Interpreter He says my Lord he can't tell why he came there it 's a proper Question to ask Captain Vratz himself L. C. Justice That can't be Interpreter He says my Lord he kept his Chamber at that time he had taken cold upon his taking Physick and the Captain came to give him a visit and he never reflected upon any one he came for he was lying upon his Bed L. C. Baron Pray ask my Lord this Why this man that was sent over to attend Horses should come upon the Friday and a Campaign Coat be bought him on the Saturday and he furnished with a Sword on the Sunday Interpreter My Lord the Noise is great but I suppose your Lordship desires to know what was the reason why he bought a Sword for him and a Coat L. C. Baron Ay and how he came by the Buff-Coat Interpreter He says he had that before L. C. Baron But why must he have such a strong Basket-hilted Sword furnished him in a days time Interpreter He says my Lord As to the Clothes when he saw him with all his Clothes torn he must of
necessity get him a Coat or else he was a shame to him and his Service And as for the Sword it was no more he says then what Servants of his bulke and making used to wear Sr. N. Johnson And he says all the Servants of Gentlemen in Germany wear such broad Swords L. C. Justice You know it your self Sr. Nathanael Johnson you have travelled there S. N. Johnson Yes my Lord they do and the Poles much broader and greater Swords then the others Here is one in Court that hath a great broad Sword now by his Side L. C. Justice Now my Lord it will import you to give some accompt how you having brought over this Polander as you say to choose Horses and help you in the management of them to take care of them in the nature of a Groom how you came to part with him to Captain Vratz assoon as he came over Interpreter My Lord he says Being that he was sick himself and there was no hopes of the Alliance between England and Holland he had no such occasion for him as when he wrote for him and therefore saw no reason to keep him L. C. Justice How long was it before that he wrote for him Count. My Lord after the Siege of Strasburgh when every body thought there would have been a War but it was not so therefore I had not need of him but he had been 7 Weeks at Sea and my Lord 't is a common thing in Germany Interpreter He says 't is common thing in their Country to give Servants away if there be no occasion for them Count. My Lord t is a common thing in Germany it may be it may not be so much used in England to give a Servant away L. C. Baron What! the next day that he comes over L. C. J. What say you Sir Nathaniel Johnson Sir N. Johnson Yes my Lord 't is very frequent in Germany to give a Servant away if there be no use of him for these Polanders are like slaves Interpreter And my Lord he says that Mr. Russel does know that the Merchant that sent him over hither is a man of good Repute and if this man had had an ill Reputation in Germany he would not have sent him Witness My Lord I know very well he is a man of very great Credit in Hamburgh and of great Estate L. C. J. Did he send over this Polander Witness Yes my Lord so I understand L. C. J. Can you speak of his Credit Sir Nathaniel Johnson Witness Of the Merchant's Credit I can my Lord I know him to be a man of considerable Estate and Credit He is a man of such a Reputation that he would not send a man of an ill Reputation L. C. Baron Oh Sir Nemo repente fit turpissimus He could not be so ill a man at the first dash he must be a man probable for such a service Sir Fr. Winn. You may observe my Lord how Sir Nathaniel Johnson who is Interpreter in the Case is a Witness and argues for the Prisoner too Mr. Williams Pray Sir Nathaniel is a Rancounter the killing a Man after this manner Sir N. Johnson A Rancounter is another sort of thing Sir you don't speak as if you were a Souldier Mr. Williams My being a Souldier or not is nothing to the business but the Captain said he intended to have made a Rancounter of it Sir Francis Winn. But my Lord we desire to take notice of Sir Nathaniel's forwardness for it may be a President in other Cases L. C. J. What do you talk of a President When did you see a President of alike Tryal of Strangers that could speak not a word of English but you would feign have the Court thought hard of for doing things that are extraordinary in this Case Mr. Craven My Lord he desires he may inform the Jury what he sent for this Polander for L. C. J. Let him Then the Count spake it in French and Dutch L. C. J. My Lord another thing is this How came your Lordship presently to go away in such a private secret manner and to direct your Cloaths to be sent as it were to Windsor And your self to go away and to make such a private withdrawing of your self down the River in this manner Mr. Craven My Lord he says that one Markham that is here came and told him that upon the killing of this Man by the Polander and the Captain who were taken in such a fact there was a discourse of it that it might turn to his prejudice and that the Common people do commonly fall upon Strangers that his Taylor told him that he had heard the Common people name him as concerned in it and that he believed if the Common people did catch him they would tear him to pieces and so his friends did Counsel him that he would withdraw himself L. C. J. Is the Taylor here call him Interpreter Call Markham the Taylor who stood up Sir N. Johnson My Lord he says that he was afraid the people might tear him to pieces before he could come to justify himself L. C. J. Look you friend did you come to Count Coningsmark's Lodgings after Mr. Thynne was killed on the Monday morning Markham Yes L. C. J. What did you tell him Markham I told him nothing but I was sent there by Mr. Hanson says he tell the Count that the Duke of Monmouth and several Noble-men have been here Now I had not seen the Count at that time before but he told me where he Lodged when I came there I told the Count of it but he told me he knew nothing of it but sayd he I am sorry if any such thing be done L. C J. But what did you say his friends advised him to about it Markham I did say nothing of it Then the Count spake to him in Dutch Markham That was afterwards L. C. J. What was that afterwards Markham I was told the people said if he were taken he would be knocked on the head L. C. J. What time afterwards was it Markham After he went away L. C. J. Who told you so then Markham Mr. Hanson told me so then I would not tell a lye for all the World Count. He can tell also when I went away the rest he spake in Dutch Interpreter He says this man can witness that he asked his man what money he had left and he told him that he had not above 10. or 11 l. so he put his hand in his bag and took out some and put it into his pocket Count. So ill was I provided for an escape L. C. J. Ask him that Question do you know any thing of what money he took with him Markham No I saw him take an handful of Silver but what it was I can't tell Mr. Thynne He had 7 or 8 l. about him when he was taken Interpreter He desires leave to tell it to the Jury which he did L. C. J. Now my Lord this will require some
March 1. 1681. WE do appoint THOMAS BASSET to Print the Tryals of Charles John Count Coningsmark George Borosky Christopher Vratz and John Stern for the Murder of THOMAS THYNN Esquire And that no other Person presume to Print the same JOHN MOOR Mayor FR. PEMBERTON THE TRYAL AND CONDEMNATION OF George Borosky alias Borotzi Christopher Vratz and John Stern FOR THE BARBAROUS MURDER OF Thomas Thynn Esq Together with the TRYAL of Charles John COUNT CONINGSMARK As Accessary before the Fact to the same Murder Who was Acquitted of the said Offence At the Sessions in the Old Bailey Tuesday February 28. 1681. LONDON Printed for Thomas Basset at the George near St. Dunstan's Church in Fleetstreet 1682. Thomas Thynn of Long Leate in Com. Wilts Esq r. who was Barbarously Murdered on Sunday y e 12 th Feb 1681 2 THE TRYAL OF George Borosky alias Boratzi Christopher Vratz John Stern and CHARLES JOHN COUNT CONINGS MARK On Tuesday the 28th of February 1681. The Sessions of the Peace for the City of London and of Oyer and Terminer for the City of London and County of Middlesex which was adjourned over till this day was held at the Sessions-house in the Old Bayley And there having been an Indictment found at Hicks's hall by the Grand Jury for the County of Middlesex against Charles George Borosky Christopher Vratz and John Stern for murdering Thomas Thynn Esq and against Charles John Count Coningsmark as accessory before the Fact the said Persons being in Newgate were brought to the Barr to be Arraigned and Tryed And they being Forreigners and Interpreter was sworn to acquaint them in a Language they understood what they were Accused of Cl. of the Crown CHarles Borosky hold up thy hand Which he did Christopher Vratz hold up thy hand Which he did John Stern hold up thy hand Which he did Charles John Coningsmark hold up thy hand Which he did Tou stand Indicted in the County of Middlesex by the Names of Charles George Borosky late of the Parish of St. Martins in the Fields in the County of Middlesex Labourer otherwise called George Boratzi of the same Parish and County Labourer Christopher Vratz of the same Parish and County Gentleman John Stern of the same Parish and County Gentleman and Charles John Coningsmark of the same Parish and County Esquire otherwise called John Coningsmark of the same Parish and County Esquire For that you the said Charles George Borosky alias Boratzi Christopher Vratz and John Stern not having God before your Eyes but being moved and seduced by the Instigation of the Devil upon the Twelfth day of February in the Thirty Fourth year of the Reign of our Sovereign Lord King Charles the Second with Force and Arms in the Parish of St. Martins in the Fields in the County of Middlesex aforesaid in and upon Thomas Thynn Esquire in the Peace of God and our said Sovereign Lord the King then and there being Feloniously Wilfully and of your Malice afore-thought did make an Assault And that thou the said George Borosky alias Boratzi a certain Blunderbuss of the Value of Five Shillings the said Blunderbuss being then charged with Gunpowder and Four Leaden Bullets which said Blunderbuss thou the said George Borosky alias Boratzi in both thy hands so as aforesaid Loaden to and against the said Thomas Thynn then and there hadst and heldest And that thou the aforesaid George Borosky alias Boratzi knowing the Blunderbuss aforesaid to be so as aforesaid charged with Gunpowder and Leaden Bullets to and against the said Thomas Thynn then and there with Force of Arms Feloniously Wilfully and of thy Malice afore-thought didst Discharge and Shoot off And that thou the said George Borosky alias Boratzi with the said Leaden Bullets shot and sent out of the Blunderbuss aforesaid by the violence and force of the Gunpowder aforesaid And by thee the said George Borosky alias Boratzi so as aforesaid discharged and shot off the said Thomas Thynn in and upon the right-side of the Body of the said Thomas Thynn near the short Ribs of the right-side of the Body of the said Thomas Thynn then and there Feloniously Wilfully and of thy Malice aforethought didst Strike and Wound giving unto him the said Thomas Thynn then and there with the Leaden Bullets aforesaid so as aforesaid shot and sent out of the Blunderbuss aforesaid by force and violence of the Gunpowder aforesaid by thee the said George Borosky alias Boratzi so as aforesaid discharged and sent out in and upon the right side of the Body of him the said Thomas Thynn near the short Pibbs on the right-side of him the said Thomas Thynn four mortal wounds every one of them of the breadth of one Inch and of the depth of six Inches of which said mortal wounds be the said Thomas Thynn from the said twelfth day of February in the 34th year aforesaid unto the thirteenth day of the same Moneth of February at the Parish of St. Martins in the Fields aforesaid did languish and lived languishing On which said thirteenth day of February in the 34th Year aforesaid he the said Thomas Thynn at the Parish of St. Martins in the Fields aforesaid of the mortal wounds so as aforesaid given dyed And that you the said Christopher Vratz and John Sterne then that is to say at the time of the Felony and Murder aforesaid by the said George Borosky alias Boratzi so as aforesaid feloniously wilfully and of his malice afore-thought done and committed then and there feloniously willfully and of your malice afore thought by force and arms were present aiding comforting abetting assisting and maintaining the said George Borosky alias Boratzi the Felony and Murder aforesaid feloniously willfully and of his malice afore thought to do and commit And so you the said George Borosky alias Boratzi Christopher Vratz and John Sterne the said Thomas Thynn in manner and forme aforesaid feloniously wilfully and of your malice afore-thought didst kill and murder against the Peace of our Sovereign Lord the King His Crawn and Dignity And that thou the said Charles John Coningsmark before the Felony and Murder aforesaid by the said George Borosky alias Boratzi Christopher Vratz and John Sterne in manner and forme aforesaid feloniously wilfully and of their malice aforethought done and committed to wit the said Twelfth day of February in the 34th Year aforesaid at the Parish of St. Martins in the Fields aforesaid them the said George Borosky alias Boratzi Christopher Vratz and John Stern the Felony and Murder aforesaid in manner and form aforesaid felloniously to do and commit feloniously willfully and of thy malice afore-thought didst stir up counsel perswade and procure against the Peace of our Sovereign Lord the King His Crown and Dignity L. Ch. Just Why you must read this to them now in their Language or else they can't understand it L. Ch. Just North. You that are the Interpreter tell them that you are going to Interpret the Indictment to them by
the Laws of England afterwards Marry the Lady Ogle So that Mr. Thynne's Death was in prospect from the beginning Gentlemen We shall prove to you as I did in some measure open before that the Count himself was pleased to give express order that the Polander should have a good Sword bought him That before he came into England he was very much troubled by reason of the stormy Weather for fear he should be cast away that he lodged him in his own Lodging the Night before this Act was perpetrated and that Captain Vratz was the Morning before and immediately after with the Count. Another thing Gentlemen that I had almost forgot The Count was willing to be instructed in the Laws of England and inquired Whether a man might lawfully ride out upon a Sunday and being told That after Sermon he might he was very well satisfied and the day he inquired of it was the day that the Murder was committed After the thing was done Count Coningsmark the next Morning pretended he was to go to Windsor and leaves his Lodging but instead of going to Windsor being still in his disguise he goes to Rotherhith by the Water-side and there I think he continues two or three days in a Black Peruque and that is disguise enough for such a Gentleman And afterwards he goes to Gravesend but I think he was upon the Water some time before he thought it convenient to land and there he was surprized in this disguise And when he was surprized and taken he shew'd himself to be in great disorder but being charged with the Fact acknowledged nothing of the Matter but how it should come to pass that he should lie so long disguised upon no pretence that can be known and afterwards to pretend that he had a business to effect and then he was to go into France that will lye upon him to answer But these are the inducing Evidences that we give to you his keeping the Polander in his House his disguising of himself and his inquiring Whether if he Killed Mr. Thynne he might not Marry my Lady Ogle his flight the next day and pretending to go to Windsor when he went quite the other way and all in a disguise And these persons not having any appearance or any reason whatsoever for any particular quarrel to Mr. Thynne but the Count having some disgust to him upon the Terms that the Witnesses will tell you of by and by and being related to the Count we must leave it to you to judge whether these Gentlemen did it singly and purely upon their own heads or whether they were not set upon it by the Count. Sir Fra. Winn. My Lord I shall not trouble you with repeating of our Evidence but we will begin and call our Witnesses directly to prove the Murder done by these Gentlemen we will prove the Fact downright upon them and then we shall afterwards come to the Count. Mr. Williams My Lord first we will direct our Evidence to the Principals and then to the Accessory Call William Cole and William Ellers L. C. J. Swear some persons to Interpret the Evidence that shall be given I do it for the sake of the Aliens that are of the Jury for some of them understand no English and they will not know what to make of the Evidence if they do not repeat it to them in their own Language Then Vandore and Wright were sworn for the King Sir N. Johnson My Lord desires that the Doctor and the Taylor that are in Prison may be sent for to be here for they are Witnesses for him Sir Fra. Winn. We desire they may be here too for they are Witnesses for the King and I believe they are here my Lord. Sir N. Johnson Mr. Vandore does not speak French Sir Will. Roberts Mr. Craven speaks Dutch and French very well Mr. Craven was sworn Sir N. Johnson The Count desires the favor of Pen and Ink. L. C. J. Let the Count have Pen and Ink. Mr. Williams Call William Cole and William Ellers Who appeared and were sworn Which is William Cole set him up Acquaint my Lord and the Jury how Mr. Thynne was Assaulted and the manner of it Cole My Lord my Master was coming up St. James-street from the Countess of Northumberlands Sir Fra. Winn. Name your Master Mr. Williams Who was your Master Cole Mr. Thynne And I had a Flambeau in my hand and was going before the Coach and coming along at the lower end of St. Albons-street I heard the Blunderbuss go off so upon that I turned my Face back and saw a great smoke and heard my Master cry out he was Murdered and I see three Horsemen riding away on the right side of the Coach and I pursued after them and cryed out Murder I ran to the upper end of the Hay-Market till I was quite spent and was able to go no further and turning back again my Master was got into the House and I understood he was wounded that is all I know Mr. Williams You say you heard a Blunderbuss go off and turning back you saw three Men riding away from the Coach Cole Yes Mr. Williams Look upon the Prisoners at the Bar Can you say all them or any of them were the men Cole No I cannot I did not see their Faces but I saw the Horse of one of them was a little Bay Horse Mr. Williams But do you take any of them Men to be one of the three Cole I did not see any of their Faces Sir Fra. Winn. What time of Night was it Cole A quarter after Eight Sir Fra. Winn. Pray what day of the Week Cole Sunday Sir Fran. Win. What day of the Month Cole The 11th or 12th of February Sir Fran. Win. Then where is William Ellers Pray do you tell the Court and the Jury how Mr. Thynne was Wounded and by whom and what you know of it Ellers My Lord I came with my Master from St. James-street from my Lady Northumberland's and as I came at St. Albans-street there came three Men Riding by the right side of the Coach and as they Rid one of them turned about and bid me stop you Dog and just as I looked about the fire was let into the Coach upon my Master and the Men ran away as fast as they could Sir Fran. Win. How many were there of them Ellers There were three Sir Fran. Win. Were those Men at the Bar or any of them the Persons Ellers I cannot tell Sir Fran. Win. What were the words they said when the Coach was stopped Hold hold or stop you Dog Mr. Williams What Condition was your Master in then Was he shot then Ellers Yes Mr. Williams We will give you some Evidence now out of their Examinations L. C. J. You had best give some Evidence of his Wounds Mr. Williams Yes we will Call Mr. Hobbs the Chirurgeon L. C. J. Look you Mr. Craven you hear what these Witnesses say tell it to the Gentlemen of the Jury
it Dr. Harder No it was not sealed Sir Fr. VVin. Did not you know the Contents of it then Dr. Harder No. Sir Fr. VVin. Pray when you delivered the Letter from Capt. Vratz to the Count what did the Count say to you Dr. Harder The Letter was not written to the Count but it was writ to me Mr. VVilliams What was the reason that you shewed it to him then Dr. Harder I received a Letter from Capt. Vratz that the Count desired to speak with me and afterwards I was desired to direct this Man the Polander to Captain Vratz and so I directed him to Capt. Vratz and nothing more I know Sir Fr. VVin. Well Sir one thing more and I have done with you for you will not I see give a reasonable Answer pray when the Polander came along with you from the Counts did you observe he had any thing about him Dr. Harder He had a great Campaign Coat Sir Fr. VVin. Did he seem to have any thing under it Dr. Harder He had a Portmantle under it I think or some such thing Mr. Craven My Lord the Count desires to ask him some Questions L. Ch. J. Let him ask what Questions he will Mr. Craven My Lord he asks him whether he does not remember when he first came to Town he had not his Body full of Spots Dr. Harden Yes my Lord when he came from Tangier he had spots over all his Breast and it was feared they might get up higher towards his Neck and indanger him very much Mr. Craven He says If my Lord pleases he will shew it openly L. Ch. J. No there is no need of that Goctor Did you give him Physick for that Dr. Harder Yes for that I did administer Physick to him Mr. Craven He says my Lord he over-heated himself in riding to Tangier thinking to do the King and the Nation Service and the Heat broke out in spots over his Brest L. Ch. J. The Doctor knows nothing of that Mr. Craven He asks Whether the Doctor was not desired by him to cure him whether he did not tell him he would cure him of those Spots Dr. Harder He desired me to administer Physick unto him Mr. Craven He says he went to Strasburgh and when he came back he was in the same condition he was in before and he asks whether the Doctor did not undertake to cure him Dr. Harder Yes I did administer Physick unto him and this my own man can testify and be witness of because my Lord bid me take care that he might be private for he would not have it known that he did take Physick but I told my man said I 't is my Lord Conningsmark and therefore pray take care of him and see that the Physick be made very well up L. Ch. J. You seem to intimate as if he lay private to take Physick pray let me ask you this Question Did you give him Physick all this time Dr. Harder Not always purging Physick but some sort of Physick all the time L. Ch. J. What every night and morning Dr. Harder Yes every day Mr. Craven The Count desires to ask him where he was that unhappy day this Business was done Dr. Harder I found him that day ill lying down upon the Bed I asked him how his Physick had worked he told me he was afraid he had got some cold and indeed I found him very much disordered and I went home and fetched him some Physick to take that night L. Ch. J. By the Oath you have taken was there any other occasion or had you any other discourse with him when you came on the Sunday night but concerning his Physick Dr. Harder My Lord I will tell you the Truth I never heard the Count speak any word in my life that he had any concern or design of any quarrel at all nor any discourse but about the administration of his Physick L. Ch. J. Let me ask you this Question for they desire it here What was the occasion And whether you know the occasion why my Lord altered his Lodgings so often Dr. Harder The first occasion was this Because it was in the Hay-market and his Man said it would be quickly known if he did continue there so he would take another Lodging which was in Buperts-street and there he lodged three days but the Chimney did so smoke that my Lord could not stay because he could have no Fire in his Chamber and the weather was very cold for it did Snow and therefore I told my Lord it was not so proper for taking of Physick Thereupon he desired me to take him another Lodging in Queen-street which I did look about for but it was not ready so he had a Lodging taken for him in St. Martins-lane where he lodged till he went away Mr. Williams Pray Sir the Physick that you gave the Count did it require his keeping within doors might not he walk abroad with it upon your Oath Dr. Harder It did require him to keep in Mr. Williams Pray then how comes it to pass that the Count so suddenly could go by Water to Gravesend Dr. Harder I do not know what was done afterwards Sir Fr. Win. I would ask you one Question and I would fain have you give me a fair answer to it What became of the Letter that Capt. Vratz writ to you and you shewed it to the Count. Dr. Harder It remained there upon the Table Sir F. Win. Did not you keep your own Letter Dr. Harder It was not of any Concern Sir Fr. Win. If the Letter were written to you it is not so long since but you can tell us the Contents of it pray what were the Contents L. Ch. J. Can you remember what were the Contents Dr. Harder He desired me to go to Count Conningsmark who would speak with me and that I would give his man an Answer when I came from him Sir Fr. Win. But what were you to go to the Count to do Dr. Harder Nothing but the Count discoursed to me about his own Body and Indisposition Sir Fr. Win. But Capt. Vratz was no Physician why should he send you a Letter to talk about Physick Dr. Harder It was nothing but my Lord would speak with me Mr. Williams We need not trouble our selves with this Fellow he confesses he found the Polander in the Count's House Sir Fr. Withins Pray Sir let me ask you Who was with the Count on Sunday night Dr. Harder Mr. Hanson was there I think Sir Fr. Withins Who else Dr. Harder The Captain came in and went out again Sir Fr. Win. What time of night was it that Vratz came in to the Count Dr. Harder It was at the same time that I was with him Sir Fr. Win. That he swears to be about nine a Clock Was it after Mr. Thynne was killed Dr. Harder We had not heard it Sir Fr. Win. Sir was it nine of the Clock Dr. Harder Yes it was Mr. Williams You say you found the Polanderat the
your Master's Lodgings afterwards Watts Yes Sir Fra. Winn. Pray who came Watts That Gentleman in the black Periwigg Mr. Williams Pray in what Habit was he and how came he in Watts He came in a great Coat I can't tell whether it was Cloath or Chamblet Mr. Williams And what did he speak to any Body or go strait up Watts No he spoke to no Body but went strait up Stairs Mr. Williams Did he go up to your Master's Lodgings Watts Yes I believe so but I stay'd below in the Shop Mr. Williams How long did you stay in the Shop Watts I stay'd there about half an Hour Mr. Williams Did you leave him there Watts Yes I did Mr. Williams Did he continue there all the time that you were in the House Watts Yes Mr. Williams What time did you go away Watts About three Quarters of an Hour after that Gentleman came in Sir Fra. Withins Do you remember you had any discourse with the Count about riding on Sundays Watts He asked me on Sunday in the Fore-noon whether People were suffered to ride about the Streets on Horse-back on Sundays Sir Fra. Winn. This was that Sunday morning was it Watts Yes he asked if they might be suffered to ride about the Streets on Sunday I told him yes before Sermon time and after Sermon time Sir Fra. Win. About what time of the day was it that he had this discourse Watts About ten or eleven a Clock Sir Fra. Winn. Are you sure it was Sunday Watts Yes Sir Fra. Winn. Then I ask you another Question upon Sunday Morning or any other time do you remember that the Polander was with the Count your Master Watts He came in on the Saturday morning Mr. Williams Was he in the Company or Presence of the Count Watts I was above stairs when he came in Sir Fra. Winn. What do you know of any Sword that was delivered to him Watts Upon the Sunday Morning there was a Sword brought to my Master's Lodgings and my Master's man took it of me and carried it up stairs and this man the Polander afterwards had it below stairs Mr. Williams When was this Sword brought to your Master's house Watts It was on the Sunday morning Mr. Williams What the Cutler brought the Sword Watts No it was sent by a Porter from Mr. Hanson Mr. Williams What Room was it carryed into when it was brought Watts I think I did not carry it up Yes truly now I remember I did and delivered it to my Master Mr. Williams Pray what did the Count say to you Watts I asked him if there needed an Answer of the Note I carryed with it and he said no. Mr. Williams To whom was that Sword delivered afterwards Watts It was brought down and afterwards this Polander had it Mr. Williams That man there Watts Yes Mr. Williams You say that the Sword was given to the Polander Pray speak that the Jury may hear Who brought down the Sword Watts I saw it in the Polander's keeping when it was below but I cannot say who brought it down Sir Fra. Winn. Where did the Polander dine on Saturday Watts He dined with my Master's Man and I on Saturday Sir Fra. Winn. Where did he lye that Night At whose Chamber Watts At our Lodgings in the Garret in my Master's Man's Chamber Sir Fran. Winn. What day was this do you say Watts Saturday Mr. Williams When the Polander had the Sword do you remember any Boots that he had under his Arm. Watts Yes he had Boots under his Arm. Mr. Williams And he had the Sword with him when he went away Watts Yes Mr. Williams Had he any Coat Watts Yes a new Coat Mr. VVilliams Well I ask you once more what time of day was it that he went away with the Sword and the Boots Watts It was in the Fore-noon Mr. VVilliams VVhat day of the Week Watts Sunday morning L. Chief Just Ay but your Doctor that you examined before says the Polander went away with him and he was not there on Sunday Morning Sir Fra. VVinn It is true my Lord it was too tender a point for the Doctor he lyes under some Suspicion and 't is proximus ardet with him L. Chief Just Well call him again Look you Doctor you were asked before and now you are asked again were you at Count Coningsmark's Lodgings on the Sunday Morning Dr. Harder I cannot certainly tell L. Chief Just When did you see the Polander at the Count's Lodgings and whether was it on Sunday morning Dr. Harder On Sunday Morning I did not see him The only time was when I fetched him from my Lords I have not seen him before nor since L. Chief Just Then call up the Boy again VVhere did the Polander dine on Saturday VVatts He dined with me and my Master's Man L. Chief Just VVhere Watts Below in the Kitchin of our Lodgings L. Ch. Just Where lay the Polander that night Watts He lay in our Garret L. Ch. Just When went he from your Master's Lodgings Watts On Sunday morning Mr. Williams Had he an old Coat or a new Coat upon him Watts He had a new Coat L. Ch. Just Was the Doctor with him Watts Yes the Doctor went away with him Dr. Harder I have not seen the Polander above once in my Life Sir Fra. Win. But were you at the Count 's on Sunday morning or no I ask you Dr. Harder I do not know whether it was Saturday or Sunday L. Ch. Just But when you fetched him away was it Saturday or Sunday morning Dr. Harder My Lord I can't very well remember L. Ch. Just Had the Polander a Sword when you went away with him Dr. Harder I cannot positively say but as Travellers commonly have he might have a Sword Sir Fra. Win. Now come to your self and deal honestly for you are upon your Oath I ask you friend this You say he might have a Sword do you remember a pair of Boots Dr. Harder No I do not Sir Fra. Win. Do you remember the Coat he had uppermost Dr. Harder Yes he had something under his Coat but I don't know it was Boots L. Ch. Baron Had he a Buff-coat under his Campaigne Watts Yes Sir Fra. Withins Let me ask you one Question young man Do you remember you saw any Musquetoon in your Master's Lodging Watts I did see a Gun there Sir Fra. Withins When was that Watts I saw it upon Saturday Mr. Williams The Musquetoon or Gun that was in your Masters Lodgings was it that which was bought by the Polander or no Watts I can't tell that Mr. Williams Was it a long Piece or a short Piece Watts It was not a short Piece L. C. Just Did the Polander take it away with him Watts No not that I know of Mr. Williams Now young man I would ask you as to Monday morning About what time on Monday morning did you come to your Masters Lodgings Watts It was between 7 and 8 a clock a little
Order was brought to your Lodging was provided for there that he had Clothes and he had a Sword provided by your Lordship for him and that there was care taken that it should be an extraordinary good Sword that you did discourse to Mr. Hanson about your calling of Mr. Thynne to account and this much about the time or a little before the time of his death and what the Laws of England would be in case you should call Mr. Thynne to account and particularly you desired to know what Monsieur Lienberg's Opinion might be concerning it and especially what in relation to my Lady Ogle And that after all this Mr. Borosky was not only Clothed by you but was sent by you to Vratz that the Doctor says and after Vratz him that he lay in your Lodging that Night before this evil thing was done and that after the thing was done the same Night Vratz came to your Lodging and was with you and had private Conference with you that the next Morning you got up and went away tho' you had taken Physick the Night before and tho' you your self nor your Doctor thought you fit to go abroad and you go away incognito in a Perriwig disguised you direct your Servant to carry your Clothes one way while you go another then you go down to the Water-side and lye private near the River at a Swedes House at Rotherith for several days together you afterwards take great care to conceal your self by changing your Clothes and putting your self into a garb not like your own giving out you were a Merchant or a Jeweller or some other Trade that afterwards you trifled away the time and went 2 or 3 miles and then struck in upon one side of the River and afterwards on the other side of the River suspitiously up and down not to be known and this not like your self in any manner but in a pitiful poor disguise and hire a sculler to carry you from whom you concealed your self and so all along you trifled away the time till you were taken at Graves-end that afterwards when you were taken you were inquisitive about the Captain whether he did confess that you should likewise say some such suspitious words as these That you believed those that killed Mr. Thynne had no design against the Duke of Monmouth that you believed the Captain would not confess that you seemed to be concerned when you were told the Polander had Confessed that afterwards you should say my Lord this is a stain to my blood but one good Action in the Wars or a Lodging upon a Counterscarp will take away all this or wash it clean And then which is also testified against you that you should ask the Boy that very Morning of the day the murder was committed whether they used in London here to permit Men to ride up and down on Horse-back upon a Sunday Now these things my Lord it will import you to give some account of Sir N. Johnson My Lord says he desires he may Answer all these things one after another L. C. Justice Let him do so And first let him answer what his reason was to come into England in such a manner Incognito at this time and lye concealed when he had been in England before and lived in a mighty good Equipage Condition Mr. Craven My Lord he says that hearing there was a Peace between Sweedland and England and Holland designed and like to be confirmed suddenly against the French he came with a design to serve England and to raise a Regiment of Horse here for the service of the King of England Count Conningsmarke If any such Peace should be if any appearance of an Alliance between England and Holland and Sweedland I had a design to propose if I could have a Regiment L. C. Justice Why did he come unknown and in a disguise Sir N. Johnson Secondly He says my Lord the reason of his coming Incognito was because he had a distemper upon his Arms and Breast and having formerly tryed and imployed this Physitian and having experience that he was an able man he was resolved to lye privately till he had cured himself for he could not drink Wine nor keep Company having this distemper upon him and he was afraid if he had kept Company it would have hindred his Cure and he should not have been so soon cured as if he kept in the house and he says that his Equipage could not come till after and he would not willingly appear till he had his Equipage as a man of his quality ought to do and these were the reasons that made him keep private L. C. Justice Pray ask him upon what occasion he did change his Lodgings so often Sir N. Johnson He says that his first Lodging was changed because it was too cold for him and he says the next Lodging where he was those that were there can tell the room where he was smoaked so cruelly that he was not able to endure it And he says he liked the house so well that he sent to see if the Chimney could be mended and it was not to be done otherwise he had gone back to that house and he has the man and his wife to bear Witness of it if you please L. C. Justice Let him call them Count. Call Joseph Parsons and his wife but they did not appear L. C. Justice Then ask my Lord this To what purpose he did bring over this Polander here he ought to consider of that and give an account why he brought him hither Interpreter He says this Pole was taken into his Service when he went to Tangier when he went several 1000 of Miles to do the King Service and he had designed at that time to bring him into England to dress his Horses after the German way L. C. Justice Had the Polander been a Groom formerly Interpreter He says he thinks he had been Groom to his Uncle before L. C. Justice But to what purpose did he bring him hither Interpreter He says there was a great discourse about Strasburgh's being besieged he did design to buy some Horses for every one did Arm themselves and he says he sent over 1000 Pistolls to be answered by the Merchants here to buy Horses L. C. Justice Hath he any body to prove it Count. There is Mr. Risby Mr. Hanson and my Brother Young Count. My Lord I had a Bill of Exchange L. C. Justice For how much Money my Lord Young Count. For 1000 Pistolls to buy Horses and he has bought one Horse and was to buy more L. C. Justice Do you hear Gentlemen what he says He came over to buy Horses and he returned 1000 Pistolls for that purpose and his Brother does attest there was such a Sum returned by Bills of Exchange for the Buying of Horses Interpreter My Lord he says he does fear that the Jury that do not understand English do not understand his Reasons for being in a disguise L. C. Justice
Answer how came you to tell those Gentlemen that took you that you believed Mr. Uratz and the rest would have done the Duke of Monmouth no harme Interpreter He says the people told when he was taken that the Duke of Monmouth was in the Coach and that they did follow the Coach a great way and would not do the Action till the Duke of Monmouth was out of the Coach Count. They did tell me the Crowd that were about me that those that were taken say'd they would not do it till the Duke was out Interpreter And he says that gave him sufficient reason to say to Mr. Gibbons that he did believe they had no design upon his Grace the Duke of Monmouth L. C. J. He heard it so commonly it seems Now my Lord there is one thing more that you should explain your self in what you meant by this when you said it would be a stain upon your bloud yet one Noble Act in War or the Lodging upon a Counterscarp would wash it off Interpreter He says my Lord that tho he knew himself Not Guilty of any thing yet his being taken upon suspition and clapped up in Prison would be a great disgrace to him and would be worse resented in his own Country than the thing it self was It being not the Custom in his Country to take Persons of his Quality Prisoners in that manner L. C. J. Now my Lord Is there any person that you would have called to ask any Questions of If you have they shall be called Count. No my Lord but if you please to give me leave to tell something that may be necessary Then he spake in Dutch Sir N. Johnson My Lord he says if you will give him leave though it does not come very well from himself yet he desires to say something for his own Reputation Mr. Williams He should be armed with Witnesses to make his defence L. C. J. T is fit for men that stand here to say any thing that is reasonable for themselves My Lord If you can speak anything that you apprehend the Jury can understand speak to them what you please so as they understand it but do not be too long Mr. Craven My Lord If your Lordship please he says he will speak it first in French and then in German L. C. J. Ay but then the English man of the Jury will not understand a word of it he had better speak in English to the Jury L. C. J. North. My Lord It is an Indifferent thing it may be Interpreted not being matter of Fact Sr. N. Johnson My Lord he says it is a great happiness in all his trouble that he was in a Country where he was to appear before a Protestant Judicature himself being a Protestant and his fore-Fathers also He says that his fore-Fathers under Gustaphus Adolphus were souldiers and did there with their Swords in their hands and the loss of their bloud endeavour to settle the Protestant Religion in Germany and protect it there he says that it has been the honour of himself and his Family that they have always been ready to venture their bloud and their Lives for the advantage of the Protestant Religion as the Examples of his Grand-father and Father do shew and there never was any thing done by his family but what was done for the Honour of his Country and his Religion and he says that if any of his former Actions can give any the least suspition of his being Guilty of this or any foul Fact he is very willing to lay down his Life and very willing to have it cut off imediately Count. Imediately Sr. N. Johnson He says that he is very ready upon all occasions to serve the King of England and that he loves the English Nation so well as always to be ready to do any thing to serve them Count. without any interest in the World against the will of all my Relation and I have brought my Brother into England to be brought up into the Protestant Religion to shew my Inclinations to the Religion and the English Nation Ld. Ch. Just Have you done Sr. Fra. Winn. Yes my Lord We have done with our Evidence and we have no matter of fact to reply unto but we think it is our duty considering the defence my Lord has made that we should take some care to put the Kings Evidence a little together it being a case of such nature and so cruel and horrid a Murder My Lord and you Gentlemen of the Jury I am of Counsel here for the King and you are Gentlemen upon an inquiry to find out the Offendors in a very great a barbarous and a wilful Murder And my Lord in relation to the Principals I need not spend your Lordship and the Jurys time about them for all those three Men that are indicted as Principals do my Lord confess the fact tho they do it in a different manner and tho in forme of Law they are pleaded not Guilty yet when they come to be asked the Question there Guilt flys in their faces and they cannot deny it So then for those three Men there is no need to spend time in repeating the Evidence But my Lord that that seems to require the consideration of the Jury is whether this wicked and horrid Murder be only circumscribed in the Guilt of it to those three Men that have confessed it or whether any rational man in the World will beleive upon the account they give themselves that they only had a design a study or a delight to kill this Innocent Gentleman No my Lord the thing must lie a little deeper and there must be some other reason why this barbarous Murder was committed I would crave your pardon for what I say My Lord I would not speak any thing that should mislead a Jury in matters of bloud and I think it was rightly sayd by your Lordship that when a Man is tryed for his Life We ought all to behave ourselves seriously as in a matter of weight and moment And so it is I think a very serious thing and a matter of concernment to us all to inquire who hath shed Innocent bloud for such was this poor Gentlemans bloud that was killed Innocent bloud My Lord this Count is a very unhappy Person to have such a Relation as has been proved to be of the Principals I will do my Lord no wrong in the repetition if I do and am mistaken I crave your direction I am sure you will correct me in it Two of the Persons that are Principals that was Captain Uratz and the Polander happen'd to be Persons Relating to my Lords family as his servants For it is agreed by the Witnesses that were that Counts friends that I came over into England with the Count the last time he came over in that private manner and 't is likewise proved and not denyed by him that Captain Uratz was frequently with him not only to the very day when this
bloudy Fact was done but after that great crime was committed I say my Lord 't is a very unfortunate thing for this Lord that those men should have so near a Relation to him who have had their hands in it and can give no account why they did it My Lord I do know and your Lordship has justly directed us that no Evidence from one Prisoner or the Confession of one can charge the others in point of Evidence but I cannot but take notice that Captain Uratz could give no reason in the World for it but as it were for some Affront to the Count and himself But my Lord the Evidence that lyes heavy upon this Lord at the Bar is made up of these Particulars First that here is a Murder committed is plain then that this Lord did fly is also plain and when he did fly Gentlemen he kept himself in disguise before that Fact was committed and whether or no the Reasons be sufficient that he has given to your Lordship and the Jury must be left to consideration He says that he had not his Equipage that he was not very well and that he could not drink Wine Those I take to be the Reasons given why my Lord Coningsmark did conceal himself till the time after the Fact was comitted L. Ch. Just He was taking of Physick and he thought it might be prejudicial to him to drink Wine or keep company Sr Fr. Winn. But my Lord These Kind of shifts we think are not able to ballance the Evidence for that which is truly the Evidence is this Mr Hanson who is very much conversant in that family and who did give his Evidence very unwillingly yet he did really confess that which will go very far in this Case For after he was pressed several times your Lordship and the Court and the Council pressed him to tell what was the Reason of that discourse he had with the Swedish Resident and he was asked had you any Command from my Lord Coningsmark he answered no but says he I thought it would please him if I could have the Opinion of the Agent or Resident to know what the Laws of England were if so be he called Mr. Thynne to account and what the consequence would be in reference to his design upon my Lady Ogle and upon this he does go and ask the Question of the Resident Now what does he mean by this calling to account We must take things according to the reason of them Certainly it was some offence that he had taken to Mr. Thynne and that is plain in regard when he was asked what the prejudice did refer to Mr. Hanson was pleased to name that great Lady my Lady Ogle and say'd she was mentioned and he did desire to know what the Influence of the Laws of England would be in that matter if he should call him to account My Lord I think with submission it carrys this in it as if he had a purpose in his mind to call Mr. Thynne to account by quarrelling with him and hazarding him in his Life I do not undertake nor would not of myself to expound it but this I will say it must signify something and must have some consideration and without all doubt a Person of this Lords quality would not let fall such an Expression but for some end and purpose My Lord after Mr. Hanson had given his long Evidence which came so difficultly from him we traced it down by several Witnesses Wright Harder and others that this Polander came over as it happened on the Friday which is a thing that comes mighty close upon the Saturday he is provided with a Coat and a Sword On the Sunday he committed this inhumane bloudy Fact Now it is a mighty unfortunate Circumstance upon this Lord that this should be a man whom my Lord Coningsmark should be so very much concerned for that because he was not come he should be afraid he had miscarryed in the weather to that his answer was this that he was sent for over by him to look after his Horses and he had come a great deal sooner if it had not been for the stormy weather But your Lordship observes that it was not above three or four Moneths before and then by his own shewing the business of Mr. Thynne and his Mariage with my Lady Ogle was talked of far and near and so my Lord it makes the suspition of the malice the greater that he who has done this bloudy Murder and has been so much under the command of this Lords family that he should come but two days before and the Count provide him with a Sword that very day and then that Letter from Captain Uratz to Dr. Harder which he carryed to the Count and the Count read but of which he can tell you none of the Contents that speak something in regard when the Doctor went away this Polander was sent to the Captain by the Doctor but this is certain however there was a Sword that was brought by the Cutler that Sword was carried up to the Count's Chamber that Sword was delivered afterwards to the Polander for he had it on the Sunday Morning when he went away with the Boots under his Arm and the Campagne-Coat upon his Back with a Buff-Coat under it and he went out and never returned till the Fact was committed I say my Lord it carries a vehement suspition that he was privy to this Murder because this was a Servant at his Devotion and your Lordship and the Jury see what kind of a Creature he is likely to do any thing being at the Command of so great a Person But then my Lord to come closer to the matter for I will only repeat that which is most material there is the Evidence of the Boy who I must say tells you a very sensible Story he tells you upon what account he came to him that he was there Ten Days before the Murder was committed he Swears expresly That the Polander lay there the Night before was there that Morning went away with the Sword and Doctor Harder with him that this Murder was committed about Eight a Clock at Night that Captain Uratz came bustling into the Count's Lodgings where he lay concealed and the Boy by agreement being to go home every Night stay'd half an hour till past Nine and left the Captain there at that time and the Captain had been there in the Morning My Lord surely it is a strange thing and much to be wondered at that the Captain who had the management of this Murder had no where to go for a Refuge but to his Patron my Lord Coningsmarke reeking hot with Mr. Thynne's blood when the blow was given within an hour after the Murder committed for so the Boy swears expresly for the blow was given at 8 a clock and afterwards he went to the Doctors to bed about 10 a clock at night as the Doctor hath confessed I take that for a mighty Evidence