Sundaye and whereof both Ignatius and Tertullian speake but it is the Saterday whych is called Sabbatum And that this is true you myghte haue read in the same Epistle of Augustyne to Casulanus where he saith thus VVhereas you aske of me whyther it be lawfull to faste on the Sabboth daye I Ibidem aunswere if it were by no meanes lawfull truely neyther Moyses nor Helias nor oure Lorde him selfe woulde haue fasted fortie dayes together But by thys reason it is concluded that the faste on the Lordes daye is lawfull also notwythstandyng whosoeuer doth thynke that thys daye oughte to be dedicated vnto fastyng as some doe obserue the Sabboth fasting he shall gyue no small offence to the Churche And after in the same Epistle And truely of the Sabboth day the case is more easie bycause the Church of Rome dothe faste and some other also althoughe but fewe eyther of those that be nexte or farre from it But to faste on the Lordes daye is a greate offence especially since that detestable heresye of the Manicheis which is muche repugnant to the Catholike fayth and moste manifestly contrarye to the Scriptures of God hath bene openly knowen whych doe appoynte vnto their hearers thys daye as lawfull to be fasted wherby it is come to passe that the faste on the Lordes daye is accompted more horryble You sée therefore howe you maye be deceyued for all the great reading you woulde séeme to be of for these fathers agrée among them selues and you haue faulted in opposyng them to Augustyne and Ambrose so that for anye thing that is yet proued agaynst them a man may well vse theyr authoritie in such matters wythout that inconuenience that you suppose for I knowe howe farre they them selues would be beléeued and wherevnto theyr authoritie extendeth It is lyke that bothe Ambrose and Augustine woulde haue done that themselues which they moued other men vnto and much more beyng Citizens than beyng straungers it is also like that if they had bene Ministers there they woulde haue in time and place reproued suche things as were amisse for it had bene their duetie so to doe yet doe I lykewise thinke that they would haue had great respect to that aduertisement that Augustine gaue to Casulanus in that Epistle in these wordes vtique cauendis est ne tempestate contentionis serenitas charitatis obnubiletur Verily we muste take heede least Ibidem in the storme of contention the fairenesse of loue be darkened The errors which Ambrose or Augustine had must not preiudice their authoritie in speaking truely This is but a very simple kinde of answering to denie the author where be speaketh truely bycause in some other place he hath erred and bene deceyued I neither alledge Ambrose nor Augustine to allowe or disalow weekely and commanded fastes but to proue the matter that I haue in hand which is that the scripture hath not expressed all things vsed in the Churche Howbeit I know nothing in this place affirmed either by Ambrose or Augustine touching fasting which may not be obserued without iust offence Chapter 3. the. 2. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 23. Sect. 2. That whiche he writeth in his Epistle ad Ianuarium 118 is a most Aug. Ep. 118. playne declaration of his iudgement in this matter Illa autem quae non scripta sed tradita custodimus quae quidem toto terrarum orbe obseruantur dantur intelligi vel ab ipsis Apostolis vel plenarijs concilijs quorum est in Ecclesia saluberrima authoritas commendata atque statuta retineri sicuti quod domini passio resurrectio ascensio in coelum aduentus de coelo spiritus sancti anniuersaria solennitate celebrantur si quid aliud tale occurrerit quod seruatur ab vniuersa quacunquese diffundit ecclesia Those things vvhiche be not vvritten but kept by tradition vvhich are obserued through the vvhole vvorld are to be vnderstanded either to be deliuered vnto vs from the Apostles them selues or else decreed by generall Councels vvhose authoritie is greate in the Churche as that vve yerely vvith solemnitie celebrate the passion of the Lorde and his resurrection his ascention into heauen and the comming of the holy Ghost and if there be any other thing that is obserued of the vvhole Churche T. C. Pag. 18. Lin. 1. Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. What you meane to cite this place ad Ianuarium 118. I can not tell You charge the authors of the Admonition to be conspired with the Papistes I will not charge you so but will thinke better of you vntill the contrarie do more appeare But I appeale to the iudgement of all men if this be not * Nor one whit but the contrarie shall be proued to bring in poperie agayne to allowe of S. Augustines saying wherein he sayth that the celebrating of the day of the passion c. is either of some generall Councell or of the Apostles commaunded and decreed whereby a gate is open vnto the Papistes to bring in vnder the colour of traditions all their beggerie whatsoeuer For you playnely confirme that there is some thing necessarie to be obserued whiche is not contayned any wayes in the Scripture For to keepe those holydayes is not contayned in the Scripture neither can be concluded of any parte thereof and yet they are necessarie to be kepte if they be commaunded of the Apostles Therefore in your opinion some thing is necessarie to be kepte whiche is not contayned in the Scriptures nor can not be concluded of them And if you say that S. Augustine leaueth it in doubt whether it were the Apostles tradition and statute or a generall Councels then you bring vs yet to a worse poynte that we can not be assured of that whiche is necessarie for vs to knowe that is whether the Apostles did ordayne that these dayes shoulde be kepte as holydayes or the Councels And that it is S. Augustines meaning to father Sermo 7. de baptis cont Donatist lib. 5. ca. 23. suche like things of Apostles it may appeare by that which he writeth saying There are many things whiche the whole Churche holdeth and therefore are well beleeued to be commaunded of the Apostles althoughe they be not founde written * A pretie and sound collecti If this iudgement of S. Augustine be a good iudgement and a sounde then there be some things commaunded of God whiche are not in the scriptures and therefore there is no sufficient doctrine contayned in the scriptures wherby we may be saued (a) A great vntruthe and absurditie For all the commaundements of God and of the Apostles are needefull for our saluation And (b) Nay marke how your affections moue yo to speake vntruely marke I pray you whither your affections carie you before you sayde that the Lordes day whiche was vsed for the day of rest in the Apostles time may be changed as the place and houre of prayer and the day
from God so to doe As when there is any generall plague or iudgement of God eyther vpon the Churche or comming towards it the Lorde commaundeth in suche a case that they shoulde sanctifie a generall faste and proclayme ghnatsarah whiche signifieth 2. Ioel. a prohibition or forbydding of ordinary works is the same Hebrue worde wherwith those feast days are noted in the law wherin they should rest the reason of which comaundement of the Lorde was that as they abstayned that day as much as myght be conueniently from meate so they myght abstayne from their dayly workes to the ende they might bestowe the whole day in hearing the worde of God and humbling them selues in the congregation confessyng their faultes and desiring the Lorde to turne away from his fearce wrath In this case the Churche hauing commaundement to make a holyday maye and oughte to doe it as the Churche whiche was in Babilon dyd during the time of their captiuitie But where it is destitute of a commaundemente it may not presume by any decree to restrayne that libertie which the Lorde hath giuen Io. Whitgifte When you are conuinced by manyfest Scripture as you are in this matter then you flye to your newly deuised distinctions as you do in this place saying The Lord whiche gaue this generall lawe might make as many exceptions as he thought good but to no purpose for you can not shewe in the whole Scripture where God hath made any lawe or ordinance agaynst his owne commaundement And surely in this poynte you haue greatly ouershotte your selfe béeing content rather to graunt contrarietie to be in the Scripture than to yéelde to a manyfest and knowne truthe The Church in appoynting holydayes dothe followe the example of God him selfe and therefore Tract 2. hath sufficient ground and warrant for hir doings and of the authoritie of the Church No mans libertie restreyned in such matters I haue spoken in an other place And I haue also a little before declared what kinde of libertie the Church may not restrayne and I adde that euery priuate mans consent is in the consent of y e Church as it is in the consent of the Parliament The Replyer bringeth authoritie against hym selfe therfore no mans libertie otherwise restrained than he hath cōsented vnto That in the seconde of the Prophet Ioell maketh agaynst you directly for it sheweth that vpon iuste occasion the Churche maye inhibite men from labour euen in the sire dayes notwithstanding it be sayde Sixe dayes thou shalte labour c. And to The Iewes aponynted to them selues holy dayes ▪ the intente no man shoulde doubte of the libertie of the Churche héerem or of the practise of this libertie let the nynthe chapter of Esther be perused and therein it will appeare that in remembrance of their great deliuerie from the treason of Haman the Iewes by the commaundement of Mordecai did solemnize and kéepe holydaye the fourtenth and fyftenth daye of the moneth Ader euery yeare But if neyther the ordinances of God himselfe nor the wordes of his Prophetes nor the examples of hys Apostles nor the practise of his Churche from the beginning wil take any place with you you are no man for me to deale with ¶ Of Sainctes dayes Chap. 2. the. 1. Diuision T. C. Page 120. Sect. vlt. Nowe that I haue spoken generally of holydays I come vnto the Apostles and other saincts dayes whiche are kepte wyth vs. And thoughe it were lawfull for the Churche to ordayne holydayes to our sauiour Christe or to the blessed Trinitie yet it is not therefore lawfull to institute holydayes to the Apostles and other Samctes or to their remembrance For althoughe I confesse as muche as you saye in the. 153. page that the Churche of Englande dothe not meane by this keeping of holydayes that the Saincts shoulde be honoured or as you alleage in 175. and 176. pages that with vs the Saincts are not prayed vnto or that it dothe propounde them as meritorious yet that is not inoughe For as we reason agaynst the Popishe purgatorie that it is therefore naught for as much as neyther in the olde Testament nor in the newe there is any mention of prayer at any tyme for the dead (a) Argum. ab auth ritate nogatiue so may it be reasoned agaynst these holydayes ordeyned for the remēbrance of the Saincts that for so much as the olde people dyd neuer keepe any feast or holyday for y e remēbrance eyther of Moses or Daniel or Iob or Abraham or Dauid or any other howe holy or excellent soeuer they were nor the Apostles nor the Churches in their time neuer ▪ instituted any eyther to keepe the remembrance of Stephen or of the Uirgin Mary or of Iohn Baptist or of any other notable and rare personage that the instituting and erecting of them now and this attempte by the Churches whiche followed whiche haue not suche certayne and vndoubted interpreters of the will of God as the Prophetes and Apostles were whiche liued in those Churches is not without some note of presumption for that it vndertaketh those things whiche the Primitiue Churche in the Apostles times hauing greater giftes of the spirite of God than they that followed them had durst not venter vpon Io. Whitgifte Purgatorie is made a matter of saluation or damnation as all other doctrines of the Popes be and therfore a negatiue reason suche as you vse is sufficient inoughe to improue it But holydayes in our Churche haue no suche necessitie ascribed vnto them onely they are thought very profitable to the edifying of Gods people and therefore suche negatiue reasons preuayle not agaynst them no more than they doe agaynst other constitutions of the Church perteyning to edifying order or comelynesse wherof there is no mention made in the worde of God And therefore nothing that is héere spoken by you can take any holde Chap. 2. the. 2. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 175. Sect. 1. Neyther are they called by the name of any Sainct in any other Why y e name of Sainctes are giuen to our holidays respecte than that the Scriptures whiche that daye are read in the Churche be concerning that Sainct and conteyne eyther hys calling preaching persecution martyrdome or suche like T. C. Pag. 121. Sect. 1. Moreouer I haue shewed before what force the name of euery thyng hathe to cause men to thinke so of euery thing as it is named and therefore althoughe you saye in the. 175. page that in calling these holydayes the dayes of suche or suche a Saincte there is nothyng else inent but that the Scriptures whiche are that daye read concerne that Saincte and conteyne eyther his calling preaching persecution Martyrdome c. yet euery one dothe not vnderstande so muche For besides that the corrupte custome of Popery hathe carryed their myndes to an other interpretation the very name and appellation of the daye teacheth otherwyse For seeing that by the dayes dedicated
murtherers abulterers incestuous persons and such like whiche God by his indiciall lawe hath commaunded to be put to death whereby he byndeth the ciuill Magistrate to the obseruing of the Judicial lawes of Moses and condemneth this state gouernment now vsed in this realme of England of manyfest impietie pag. 120. 7 He affirmeth that in the Churches of Christe there be no drunkardes nor whoremongers at the least which are knowne which assertion tendeth to Anabaptisme pag. 176. 8 He saith that what socuer apparell the magistrate commaundeth the minister to weare the commaundement can not be without some iniurie done to the minister which is to debarre the Magistrates from appointing any kynde of apparell to Ministers pag. 265. 9 He saith that those ministeries without the which the Church is fully builded brought to periection and compleat vnitie are not to be reteined in the Church which is a very daungerous assertion and may giue occasion of diuers errors pag. 307. 10 He holdeth that it were more safe for vs to conforinc our indifferent ceremonses to the Turks which are farre of than to the Papistes which are so neare whiche can not be so for the Turkes vtterly deny Chryst and be voide of all Christian ceremonies pag. 475. 11 He affirmeth that not only the dignitie but also the being of the Sacrament of baptisme dependeth vpon this whether he be a minister or no that do the minister it whiche if it be true then be there nūbers not baptized that are supposed to be baptized it must of necessitie follow that they ought to be rebaptized which is plaine Anabaptisme pa. 5 8. 12 He sayth that with what lawfulnesse men may offer themselues to the prayers and hearing of the worde of God they may also offer themselues to the Lordes Supper which is a palpable error pag. 532. And pag. 604. he affirmeth directly to the contrarie 13 He denyeth that the church or any man may restraine the people from bodily labor in any of the sixe dayes which is to drawe from the Magistrate his lawfull authoritie and to giue carnall libertie to the people pag. 541. 14 He sayth that the life of the Sacramentes dependeth of the preaching of the worde which if it be true then is the Sacrament of baptisme not to be ministred to Insants bycause they can not heare the worde preached and indéede this is the ground of Anabaptisme pag. 566. 15 He doubteth whither he may call him minister or no that can not preach whiche being ioyned with his former assertion that the minister is of the being of the Sacrament ▪ it wyll fall out that he counteth all those not baptised which haue bene baptised by any other than by preachers pag. 568 and. 583. 16 He séemeth to be of this iudgement that only those which be of the familie of God ought to be baptised which is a daungerous error for not all that be baptised are of the familie of God pag. 621. 17 He secludeth the Children of excommunicate persons and of prosessed Papistes from the Sacrament of baptisme vntill they be able to make a confession of their fayth which smelleth very strongly of Anabaptisme and it is a manyfest error pag. 622. 18 He sayth that Princes must remember to subiecte themselues vnto the Churche to submit their Scepters to throwe downe their crownes before the Church and to licke the duste of the fecte of the Churche and by the Churche he meaneth the presbyterie and Eldership so that he woulde haue Princes in as great bondage to his Seniors as euer they were to the Pope pag. 645. 19 He sayth pag. 646. that the gouernment of the common wealth must be framed according to the gouernment of the Church euen as the hangings to the house and he affirmeth that the gouernment of the Church is Aristocraticall or populare and therefore his opinion must néedes be that no gouernment of any common wealth ought to be Monarchical but either Aristocraticall or populare which is a daungerous error and springeth of this that he doth not distinguish betwixt the essential points of the gouernment of the Churche and the accidentall pointes of the same for the essentiall pointes of ecclesiasticall gouernment maye well agree with any lawfull state of common wealth and ciuill kinde of gouernment as the Gospell maye be truely preached in them all the Sacraments rightly ministred discipline duely erecuted and such like but the accidentall points of gouernment as the manner of electing ministers the kinde of discipline accidentall ceremonies and other suche like rites and circumstances may be varied according to time place and persons and are so to be framed as they may best agrée with the state and gouernmente of euery common wealth The ignorance of this distinction hath cast T. C. into a great and perilous error 20 He both ioyneth with the Papistes in taking from the ciuil Magistrate authoritie in ecclesiasticall matters and also in confirming that error by their arguments and none other pag. 694. c. 21 He affirmeth that the reading of the scriptures without the preaching cannot deliuer so much as one poore sheepe from destruction c. wherein he is also contrarie to himselfe pag. 784. ¶ A note of certaine vntruthes and falfied authorities conteyned in the Replie of T. C. and are to be founde out in this Booke according to the quotation HE saythe that it appeareth in the eight chapter of the booke of Nehemias that the teast of Tabernacles which was commaunded of the Lord to be celebrated euery yeare was not celebrated from the dayes of Iosua the sonne of Nun vntill the returne of the people from their captiuitie whiche is a manyfest vntruth as it is euident 1. Esdr. 3. and it is also against the opinion of all the interpreters pag. 8. 2 Iosias is alledged for Ezechias pag. 10. 3 This worde especially is added to the texte 1. Cor. 10 pag. 86. 4 He opposeth Ignatius and Tertullian to Ambrose and Augustine as though Ambrose Augustine should thinke it to be lawfull to fast on the Lords daye the other two thould write the contrarie whereas Ambrose and Augustine fully agrée with Ignatius and Tertullian in that matter pag. 99. 5 He mangleth S. Augustines wordes both before behinde and in the mydest pag. 107. 6 Pag. 144. he falsifieth the wordes of S. Paule 1. Tim. 3. and vntruely translateth them 7 He saith that the Israelites when they worshipped the Calfe saide That they would kepe holy day to the Lorde Iehoua which is not true pag. 151. 8 He citeth a place out of Iustinians code which cannot as yet be found there neither doth he faythfully report but subtilly suppresse the wordes whiche explane the matter as they be set downe by Illyricus of whom he borowed them Pag. 184. 9 He sayth that Platina wryteth that Lodowik the second commaunded the Romaines to choose their owne Bishop which is not true for he only commended them for so doing he did not
Cyprians time 1 No certaine forme of electing commaunded in Scripture 166. 1 Diuersitie of Elections in the Apostles times 167. 197 〈◊〉 Varietie vsed in Elections 〈◊〉 Reasons for the election by the people ansvvered 17 c. Elections by the multitude for the most part tumultuous 1 1 Electiō forbidden to the people 1 8 Three kindes of election in the Apostles time 1 Election and ordination may concurr 〈◊〉 Contention in popular electiōs 2 5 206. 213. 214. Reasons against popular electio 211 c. Popular elections an impedimen 〈◊〉 the ciuill Magistrate 〈◊〉 ¶ Emperours haue had the deci of ecclesiastical 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Councels sommoned by 〈◊〉 pag. 4 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ¶ England not bound to the ples of other churches 7 ¶ Epaphroditus an Apostlt 〈◊〉 ¶ Ephes. 4. no perfit pat 〈◊〉 423. c. Ephes. 4. dis ssed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ¶ Epiphanius busied with ciu l ses 〈◊〉 Epiphanius alloweth superioritie pag. 4 The writings of Epiphanius 402 The whole Epistle to Timothe no commaundement 637 Epistie and Gospell in the church pag. 58 c ¶ Equalitie of Ministers wil pull on the equalitie of all estates 455 VVhy the Admonitors seeke equalltie 459 Equalitie of Ministers quoad m i sterium 389. c. Equalitie made a cloake for ambition 55. 459 VVhat kinde of Equalitie is pretended 299 ¶ Errours and daungerous doctrine of the Replyer 4 4. 50. 77. 82. 〈◊〉 120. 176. 180. 265. 307. 518. 532. 541. 566. 568. 582 621. 622. 646. 694. 784 A grosse Errour 151 ¶ Euangelistes remaine 229. Euangelistes haue an ordiuarie function 217 ¶ Eusebius gouernour of mo Churches than one 698. ¶ Eustathius deposed for apparell page 270. 271. ¶ Examples what they proue 506. 512. Examples of Luther c. against the Admonition 148. VVhat exāples of the Apostles times must be followed 101. Particular examples maye sometime be followed 516. A general doctrine may not be concluded of a singular exāple 562 A man may follow the example of him that is not continually with him 241 Examples of T. C. against him selfe 68. 152. 374. 395. 396. ¶ Exhortatiōs particular moue more than generall 601 ¶ Excommunication 660. c. Only ministers maye excommunicate 661 Excommunication more than exclu ding from externall societie 665 Excommunication not the only punishmēt of the church 764 The people not ministers but witnesses of Excommunication 666 Want of Excommunication no iust cause of separation frō the church pag. 81 Excommunication by one 665 c. Excōmunicate persons not receiued before publike repentance 671 VVhen Excommunication shoulde be ministred 673 Hovv the whole Church is sayde too Excommunicate 673 Bishops alone did Excommunicate pag. 678. 677. 679 The practise in Augustines tyme of Excommunication 678 A kind of ciuil Excommunic 679 F ¶ Falsifications of the Replier 49. 86. 107. c. 144. 184. 186. 203. 209 222. 268. 302. 314. 326. 350. 357. 370. 412 413. 415. 439. 467. 479. 547. 584. 669. 6 0. 673. 675. 698. 797. Errour and disorder mayntayned by falsifying 485 A False collection vppon Musculus wordes 67 ¶ Fasting on the Saboth day 99. 102 Fasting on the lordes day wicked pag. 99. 102 ¶ Fayth cometh by reading 252 No man knoweth who be Faythful pag. 621 ¶ Flauianus Archbishop 338 ¶ Caius Fimbria 708 ¶ The fourth Finger 723 ¶ Fontes 614 ¶ Diuersitie betwixt spiritual Food and externall 556 ¶ Forgery seeketh corners 338 ¶ Maister Foxe alloweth of Archbishops c. 421. ¶ Freewill doctrine thought not too be repugnant to saluation 82 Doctrine of Freewill raseth the foūdation of faith 82 83 ¶ Funerall sermons 732. c. Funerall sermons compared to Tren tals 732 Funerall sermons allowed by Caluin 732 The order of the primitiue church in Funeralls 734 Funerall sermons serue to comforte those that are greeued 735 An absurde argument against Funerall sermons 735 Funeral sermōs most necessary wher there are most papistes 736 G ¶ Gedeons Ephod 711 ¶ Getils tooke their Images for gods pag. 151 Gentils and papistes not like in all respectes 475 Gentils and Iewes liad somethings common 475 ¶ Gennadius 472 ¶ Gifts of god bestowed by meanes pag. 645 Howe euery function hath giftes needfull 316 ¶ Gloria patri 489. 496 Gloria in excelsis 602 All seeke not the glory of God that pretend it 42 ¶ Godlynesse breaketh no lawes 810 Godlines required in gouernors 684 All Godly men are not meete to gouerne 684 ¶ Godfathers their promis 612. c The promise of Godfathers restrayned to their power 612 Godfathers allowed by T. C. 613 Godfathers once disallowed and after recanted 798. 782 ¶ Good things may come from euil men 746 Good men defaced by those which do no good 241 ¶ Gouernement in the Cleargie not forbiddē but the kind of Gouernment 62 The pretence of restoring right Gouernment a cloak for further mis chief 2 Gouernement of one by lawe better thā of many without lawe 378 Three kinds of lawfull gouernment pag. 650 Matters of the kind of gouernment not necessarie to saluation 80 Two kinds of gouernment of the Church 80 In what respect gouernment is necessarie 81 The Church not tyed to one kind of Gouernment 81. 98. 640. 678. c. The kind of Gouernment alterable by M. Beza his iudgement 660. Gouernours in the Church 630 Diuers circumstances alter Gouernment 639. 659. 660. Gouernment of the Church Monarchicall 641 The Gouernment of the Common wealth ought not to be framed to the Gouernment of the Church 646. c. Spirituall Gouernment taketh not a way ciuill Magistracie 756 The Gouernment of the Church not only spirituall 756. 789 Gouernour in the Church not of the Church 789 ¶ Gregorie Bishop of Pontus 471 Gregorie made the Letanie 489 Gregorie for George 447 H ¶ Heretiks loose not their baptisme pag. 622 ¶ Hemingius alloweth superio itie pag. 419. c ¶ Hierome of the degree of Bishops aboue other Ministers 369. c. Hieromes Presbyterie and the Repli ers agree not 652 ¶ Holidayes 538. c The vse of Holydayes a stoppe to superstition 539 The Iewes appointed Holydayes 543 The Ievves had moe Holydayes than we 545 Holydayes obserued in reformed Churches 548 Difference betwixt Popishe Holy-dayes and ours 554 ¶ Homilies 715. c. Our Homiles free from errour 715 Some Homilies better than some ser mons 716 Homilies of Fathers red in the church 719. 720. Homilies read commendable 296 Bucers opinion of Homilies 719 Rvdleis iudgement of Homilies 720 ¶ The title of most honorable Lord giuen to Bishops 448 I ¶ Iames Bishop of Ierusalem 470. 384. ¶ Idolatrous sacrificers may bee Ministers 143. c. Three kindes of Idolatrie 152 Idolatrous thinges turned to common vse 273 Idolatrous things conuerted too the honor and seruice of God 284 ¶ Kneling at the name of Iesus 741 VVhy christians bowed at the name of Iesus 742 ¶ Maister Iewell concerninge Archbishops 422. c. Maister Iewell slaundered by T. C. pag. 422 ¶ The Iewes had their ceremonies particularly
the priests was diminished whiche should haue sufficed for to prepare the sacrifices and therefore they desired the help of the Leuites that al things might be done more diligently there was also another cause of the Leuites helpe for the sanctifying of the temple and the preparation of the sacrifice was so suddainly commaunded that many of the priestes had not time to sanctifye themselues according to the lawe which required a certaine space for the same and the Leuites might be sanctified with lesse adoo and in shorter time And surely euen the very circumstances of the place dothe proue this to be the true vnderstanding of it For these be the words that immediatly go before But the priests were too few and were not able to fleay all the burnt offrings therfore their brethren the Leuites did help them vntil they had ended the worke and vntill other priests were sanctifyed 2. Chro. 29. 34 ▪ Your second assertion that is that the people were yet more earnest and more willing than eyther the Leuites or the priests I thinke is grounded vpon the. 15. verse of the. 30. Chapter which is this Afterward they slew the passouer the foureteene day of the second moneth and the priests and Leuites were ashamed and sanctifyed them selues and broughte the burnt offerings into the house of the Lord. Truly I sée not how you can collect any 2. Chro. 30. 15. such thing out of these words I know that some do gather such a note of that place But I do not vnderstand the reason of it Howsoeuer it be and howsoeuer you abuse the scriptures to iustify your selues I doubt not but that a greate number of those whome you contemme and séeke to deface do presently and will to their liues ende shewe that zeale of religion that diligence in their calling that vprightnesse in conuersation which becommeth them and whiche they are well assured pleaseth God neyther do I in so saying condemne the godly zeale of any but I admonish all to take héede of a preposterous and affectionated zeale such as is spoken of in the. 30. Page of the second edition of my answer to the Admonition The Epistle of T. C. Sect. 9. And I humbly craue and most ernestly desire of those whiche bare the cheefe titles in the ecclesiasticall functions that as we do in part correct our negligence by the example of the forwardnesse and redinesse of the people so they would suffer themselues to be put in remembrance of their ducties by vs which are vnderneath them and that they would not neglect this golden gift of gods grace in admonishing them by cause the Lorde doth offer it in a treane or earthen vessell but that they would first consider that as Naaman the Syrian prince receiued great commoditie by following the aduice of his mayd and after of his man And Abigael being a wise woman singular profite by obeying the counsell of hir seruant so they may receiue of tentimes profitable aduertisement by those which are in lower places than they themselues be Then let them thinke that as Naaman was neuerthelesse noble for obeying the voice of his seruaunts nor Abigaell neuerthelesse wise bycause she listned vnto the words of hir man so it cannot deminish their true honoure nor empaire the credite of their godly and vncounterfaite wisedome if they giue care vnto that which is spoken by their inferiours Io. Whitgifte This humilitie appeareth to be counterfaite by the opprobrious speaches and great contempt that you shew towards them in the rest of this booke What diligence you are prouoked vnto by the forwardnesse and redinesse of the people I know not but euery man may sée you are ready to shake off your calling vpon euery light occasion Neither will you preach in those places where the Gospell hath not bin so well planted but there only you loyter where there is lesse nede and where you easily may make sturres and moue contention as experience sufficiently teacheth I know none no not of the best that refuseth to heare either you or any other modestly admonishing neither haue you any cause hereof to complaine but your stomackes are such and your arrogancie so great that you passingly abuse your selues toward those whome indéede you ought to reuerence and with all duty obey I maruell that you will confesse yourselfe to be vnderneath them seing you so cry out against superioritie in the clergie and claime such interest in equalitie but I may not stand in answering words The Epistle of T. C. Sect. 10. And last of all that as if they had not listned vnto those simple persons the one had perished in his leprosie the other had bin slayne with hir familie * This is glorious talke builded vpon a false ground euen so if they shall for any worldly respect of honoure riches or feare of being accounted either vnaduised in taking this course or light or inconstant in forsaking it stop their cares against this louing admonition of the Lord they prouoke his anger not against their health or against their life but against their owne soules by exercising of vnlawfull authoritie and by taking vnto them partly such things as belong by no meanes vnto the Church and partly which are common vnto them with the whole Churche or else with other the ministers and gouernours of the same whereof I beseeche them humbly to take the better heede for that the iudgement of the Lord will be vpon a great part of them by so much the heauier by how much they haue not only beleeued the Gospell but also haue receiued this grace of god that they should suffer for it So that if they will neither take example of diuers their superiours the nobles of this realme nor be admonished by vs of the lower sorte wherein we hope better of them yet they woulde remember their former tunes and correct themselues by themselues and seing they haue bin content for the Gospels sake to quit the necessarie things of this life they wold not thinke much for the discipline which is no small part of the Gospell hauing both things necessary and commodious to part from that which is not only in them superfluous and hath nothing but a vaine ostentation which wil vanish as the shadow but also is hurtfull vnto them and pernicious vnto the Church which thing I do more largely and plainly lay foorth in this Booke Io. Whitgifte Surely if they do for any suche respects refuse any admonition giuen vnto them for the auoyding of such things as be vnlawfull and as they vniustly retaine then no doubt they are worthy of great reprehension but if your Admonition be not louing but spitefull not brotherly but vnchristian nay no Admonition in déede but a very scolding and vncharitable rayling if the thinges you would haue them forsake bée bothe lawfull and conueniente for them to vse and contrariwise the things that you moue them vnto tend to confusion and ouerthrow of the Gospell and of
whervnto he is called of God by his Prince and by the lawes of that realme wherein he is a subiect It is true that an Ecclesiasticall Minister doth much differ from a ciuil Magistrate Ministers may execute some kinde of ciuill iurisdiction touching his ministerie and spirituall calling yet is he not so distincte that he may exercise no such ciuill office wherein he may doe good and which is an helpe to his Ecclesiasticall function As the ciuill Magistrate may in some thynges exercyse iurisdiction Ecclesiasticall and medle in matters of the Churche so may the Ecclestasticall person in some causes vse ciuill iurisdiction and deale in matters of the cōmon wealth if it shall be thought expedient or necessarie by the chiefe Magistrates Caluine M. Caluine in his Commentaries vpon this texte thoughe in some poyntes he agrée A temporall lorde may be a preacher with you yet hath he these woords Adde herevnto that Christe did not so muche respecte the persons of men as the state of his Churche for it may so bee that he which is Lorde of a village or citie doe also necessitie constraining exercise the office of teaching Wherby it is playne that a temporall Lorde if necessitie require maye together with his Lordship become a preacher of the Gospel M. Brentius in his 48. Homilie Brentius What kynde of external do minion is denyed to ministers vpon Luke speaking of this matter sayeth that Bishops whiche glorie themselues to be the successours of the Apostles may not vnder the pretence of their Ecclesiasticall office vsurpe externall dominion ouer kings and Princes to make kings whom they list and to displace whome they liste And by and by he obietteth and answereth as followeth Therefore thou wilte say it is not lawfull for a minister of the Churche whether thou callest hym a Bishop or a preacher to haue temporall dominion and to gouerne What kind of temporall dominion a Minister may exercise the people committed vnto him by ciuill pollicie I answere that it is not lawfull for a Minister of the Churche to vsurpe suche rule and dominion vnder the pretence of the Gospell and of his Ecclesiasticall Ministerie Peter muste not therefore haue dominion ouer Antioche or Rome bycause he is an Apostle c. But if temporall dominion or possession happen to the minister of the Gospell eyther by inheritance or ordinarie election or any other Ciuill or lawfull contracte c. then maye he enioye these externall thyngs c. And in his 52. Homilie vppon these woordes of Christ nowe Idem in question he wryteth thus VVhat shall wee then saye to these thyngs bycause Chryste sayeth The kyngs of the Nations beare rule ouer them and are called bountyfull but it muste not bee so among you shall it not bee lawfull for a Christian man to beare rule in a temporall kingdome and acknowledge the tytles of honoure as of bountyfulnesse and clemencie whyche are gyuen vnto Princes Is it not lawfull also for a Bishop to haue temporall dominion Christe in thys place dothe not thynke it vnlawfull for Christians to bee Magistrates neyther dothe he forbidde Bishoppes to haue externall dominion But he sheweth a difference betweene the kingdome of thys worlde and his kingdome He teacheth that the kyngdome of this worlde and his kingdome are so distincte that he which is a minister of his kingdome must not in that respecte vsurpe the kingdome of this worlde for the Apostles thought that bycause they were Apostles therefore they shoulde possesse the kingdomes of the worlde And therefore Christe in this place condemneth their false opinion c. Christe doth not condemne Magistracie among Christians c. No he dothe not forbidde Byshops to haue externall dominion if they come vnto it by inheritaunce or by lawfull election It is a verye harde matter bothe to preache the Gospell and to exercyse temporall dominion and yet it is not of it selfe vnlawfull together with the ministerie to keepe and vse temporall dominion if it come ordinarily and lawfully For Christe came not to trouble ciuill lawes and the ordinarie gouernmentes of the kingdomes of this worlde but rather that these being preserued his Gospell might be preached quietly Haec Brentius But of ciuill authoritie in Ecclesiasticall persons occasion wil be giuen to speake more at large hereafter That which Christ sayde Quicunque maior erit inter vos c. VVhosoeuer will be great Quicunque maior erit inter vos c. expounded among you let him be your minister though it may especially appertaine to the Apostles yet it is also a generall rule for all Christians and so is the example of him also whiche hée propoundeth vnto them And so doth Musculus verie truly interprete this place to whome M. Bucer agréeth whose woordes be these The Anabaptistes Buce in 20. thynke here that they are able to proue that it pertaineth not to a Christian to beare rule Mitth and that no man can be together a Magistrate and a Christian bycause Christe sayde They which ear rule godl y serue here to his Disciples Vos autem non sic not consydering that those whyche godlylle and according to the wil of the Lord beare rule Nihil minus quà m dominari imò maximè seruire tantò pluribus quantò pluribus praefuerint doe nothyng lesse than beare rule in deede yea verily doe moste of all serue and euen vnto so many doo they serue ouer howe manye so euer they beare rule surely Christe woulde haue his Apostles to haue their authoritie in Churches and they themselues did greately require to be obeyed but bycause in that they sought nothing vnto themselues but only saluation aud the glorie of God in those whome they ruled they did gouerne the Churches they had euery where the superioritie they ruled suche as beleeued they woulde haue the godlie to bee obedient vnto them interim nihilominùs seruierunt omnibus dominati sunt nemini And yet in the meane tyme serued all and had dominion ouer none So also in the Ciuill gouernmente who was euer in greater dignitie than Moses or more to bee feared for his authoritie and power and yet who euer serued mo more diligently and more humblye whiche neuer soughte any thing for himselfe or tooke any thing vnto himselfe c. but day and nighte to the vttermoste of his power sought for the safetie of the people c. If any now so beare office and rule the workes of the handes of the Lorde and gouerne the sheepe of his pasture according to his will what doth he else but serue all those whom he gouerneth And The place of Math. 20. generall therefore Christ doth not here dehort from bearing rule and being a Magistrate but from seeking rule and dominion for I had rather take this saying of the Lord in this generalitie than to restrayne it to the Apostles only Eò quòd omnino pius Magistratus seruiat non dominetur
so bounde that by no meanes we may declyne at any tyme from hys preceptes These places therefore may be aptly alleadged agaynste the pride tyrannie and ambition of the Byshop of Rome whiche seeketh tyrannically to rule and not to profyte but it maketh nothing at all agaynste the lawfull authoritie of any other in any state or condition of men T. C. Page 12. Sect. vlt. Concerning the exposition and sense of that place I agree with you and * Bylike it was fondly alleadged when you do but suppose their meaning suppose that it is quoted of the authours of the Admonition rather to note e ambition of certaine whiche gape greedily at these bishoppricks whiche wee haue to the ende they might be saluted by the name of Lords and honours than to proue that one minister should not haue dominion ouer another And therefore although these places be against no lawfull authoritie of any estate or condition of men yet as they are aptly alleadged against the bishop of Rome the one against his estate and authoritie simply the other againste his tyrannie and euill vsage of himselfe in that authoritie so it may be aptly alleadged agaynste any other whyche shall fall into the lyke faulte of the Byshoppe of Rome Io. Whitgifte It is manifest that they quote this same place for the selfe same purpose that they do the other there can be no mist so thicke that may darken the eyes of men from séeing it except they séeing will not sée as you do at this time I am glad that you agree with me in the exposition of this place surely in so doing you must also agrée with me in the exposition of the other For as Christ héere doth not forbid the names but the arrogant and ambitious desire of them so doth he not there forbid authoritie and superioritie but the coueting of it and ambitious and inordinate desire of the same And if you well marke the words Christ doth here much more plainly forbid these names then he doth thare those offices of superioritie If any man doth imitate the Byshop of Romes ambition either in office or in name he hathe me as greate an enimie as he hath you But in that you passe ouer with silence these words of mine these places therefore may be aptly alleadged c. you séeme eyther to allow my expositions of the other places also or else you are ashamed of your owne vnfaithful and subtil dealing which before would haue made your Reader beléeue that I had misliked all those godly learned mens iudgments which vse these places against the Byshop of Rome it had bin plaine dealing to haue set downe my words in order as I haue done yours Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 17. Sect. 1. 2. 3. Howe aptly that place of the. 24. of Mathew But if the euil seruant shall say in his heart c. is alleaged let all men iudge I thinke it forbiddeth not to punish such as breake good lawes But Lorde howe these men are beaten which do as they list say what they list that with reioycing therto that is if they be no otherwise beaten than hitherto they haue bin they will not only with schismes actions teare in sunder this Church of Englande but in time ouerthrow the whole state of the common wealth To proue that either we must haue a right ministerie of God and a right gouernment of his Church according to the Scriptures set vp c. or else there can be no right religion c. is alleaged the ninth of Mathew the fourth to the Ephe. and the eightenth of Mat. In the ninthe of Mathew the place they alleage is this Surely the haruest is great but the labourers be fevve vvherfore c. In the fourthe to the Ephe. He therfore gaue some to be Apostles c. In the eightenth of Mat. If thy brother trespasse agaynst thee c. The first place declareth that ministers of the word are necessarie in Christes Churche The seconde that there is diuers kindes and degrees of them And the thirde sheweth an order of correcting secrete sinnes and priuate offences and medleth not with those that be open and knowne to other Now therfore consider to what purpose those places be noted in the margent and how little they proue that which is concluded As for all the rest of the places of scripture that followeth noted in the margent of this Preface I knowe not to what purpose they be alleaged but only for vayne glory to bleare the eyes of the ignorant Subtilty in quoting places only people and to make them beléeue that al that which is written in this booke is nothing else but scripture it selfe They haue delte very subtilly to quote the places only and not to set them downe in playne wordes for by this meanes they thinke that of the most part it shall neuer be vnderstanded howe vnaptly and to what small purpose they be alleaged Io. Whitgifte All this L. C. passeth ouer in silence thereby as I thinke acknowledging it to be true Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 18. This name Puritane is very aptly giuen to these men not bicause The name of Puri ane they be pure no more than were the Heretikes called Cathari but bicause they thinke them selues to be mundiores caeteris more pure than others as Cathari dyd separate themselues from al other Churches and congregations as spotted and defiled Bicause also they suppose the church which they haue deuised to be without all impuritie T. C Pag. 13. Lin. 1. Sect. 1. The purenesse that we boast of is the innocencie of our fauiour Christ who shal couer al our vnpurenesse and not impute it vnto vs. And for so much as fayth purisieth the heart we doubt not but God of his goodnesse hath begon our sanctificatiō hope that he wil make an end of it euē vntu y e day of our Lorde Iesus Albeit we hold diuers points more purely thā they do which impugne them yet I knowe none that by comparison hathe either sayde or written that all these that thinke as we doe in those poyntes are more holy and more vnblameable in lyfe than any of those that thinke otherwyse If we saye that in those poyntes whiche we holde from them that we thinke soundlyer than they doe we are ready to proue it if we saye also that we lyue not so offensiuely to the worlde commonly by getting (a) And yet some of you haue a competent number without doing any duetie at them so many liuinges into oure handes as woulde finde foure or fyue good learned able Ministers all the world will beare vs witnesse Other purenesse we take not vpon vs. And therefore as the name was first by the Papistes maliciously inuented so is it of you very vnbrotherly confirmed Whereas you saye that they are Puritanes whiche suppose the Churche whiche they haue deuised to be without all impuritie if you meane without sinne
same to appoint as they shal thinke most conuenient and agréeable to the generall rules giuen in the scripture for that purpose Neither is this contrarie to any thing that I haue written But bothe in this and that also whiche immediatly foloweth you are contrarie to your self and directly ad oppositum to the Admonition T. C. is contrarie to himselfe and to the Admonition and agreeth with the answere As by conference may appeare for these be your owne wordes Whereby it lykewyse appeareth that we denye not but certayne things are lefte to the order of the Churche bycause they are of that nature which are varyed by tymes places persons other circumstances and so coulde not at once be set downe and established for euer And yet so left to the order of the Church as that it doe nothyng against the rules aforesayde What dothe this differ from these wordes of myne It is also true that nothing in Ceremonies order discipline or gouernmente of the Churche is to be suffered against the word of God and to this end doe all those authorities and places tende that I haue alledged for this matter So that eyther you vnderstand not me or not your selfe or else your quarell is againste the person not the cause The admonition in this poynt you defende not for it sayeth directly that those things only are to be placed in Fol. 19. Gods Church whiche the Lorde himselfe in his worde commaundeth And although peraduenture you will shifte this off by saying that they meane suche things only as bée commaunded eyther generally or specially yet the whole discourse of their booke declareth that their meaning is that nothing ought to be placed in the Church which is not specially commaunded in the worde of God But séeing you and I agrée in this that the Church hath authoritie to ordeyn ceremonies and make Orders whiche are not expressed in the woorde of God it remayneth to bée considered wherein we differ whiche is as I thinke in this that I say the Churche of England hath lawfully vsed her authoritie in suche ceremonies orders as she hath appointed nowe retaineth and you denie the same so that your controuersie is against the Church of England and the Ceremonies and orders vsed therein And therefore you adde and saye but howe doth this follow that certaine things are left to the order of the Churche therfore to make a newe ministerie c. Whereby you giue vs to vnderstande that the things you misselike in this Church are the office and name of an Archbishop whiche you vntruly call a newe ministerie as it is by me declared in my answere to the Admonition oure ministerie the gouernment of our Church and as you say other more that is all thinges at your pleasure But how iustly and truly this is spoken shall appeare in their proper places In the meane tyme it is sufficient to tell you that you are an vnwoorthy member of this Churche whiche so vniustly report of it so vnchristianly slaunder it and so without groundes and sounde proofes condemne it There is nothyng by it or in it altered which God hath ordeined and established not to be altered Chap. 1. the syxt Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 21 Sect. 5. 6. Pag. 22. Sect. 1. 2. The Scripture hath not prescribed any place or time wherein or when the Lordes Supper should be celebrated neither yet in what manner The Scripture hath not appoynted what tyme or where the congregation shall meete for common Prayer and for the hearing of the word of God neither yet any discipline for the correcting of such as shall contemne the same The Scripture hath not appointed what day in the weeke should be most meete for the Saboth day whither Saterday which is the Iewes Saboth or the day now obserued which was appointed by the Churche The Scripture hath not determined what forme is to be vs d in matrimonie what words what prayers what exhortations The Scripture speaketh not one worde of standing sitting or kneling at the Communion of meeting in Churches fieldes or houses to heare the word of God of preaching in pulpets chaires or otherwise of Baptising in fontes in basons or riuers openly or priuately at home or in the Church euery day in the weeke or on the Sabaoth day only And yet no man as I suppose is so simple to thinke that the Church hath no authoritie to take order in these matters T. C. Pag. 15. Sect. vlt. Pag. 16. Sect. 1. But whyle you goe about to seeme to say muche and rake vp a great number of things you haue made very euill meslyn and you haue put in one things which are not paires nor matches Bycause I will not drawe the Reader willingly into more questions than are alreadie put vp I will not stande to dispute whether the Lordes day which we call Sonday being the day of the Resurrection of our Sauior Christ and so the day wherin the world was renued as the Iewes Sabboth was the day wherin the world was finished and being in all the Churches in the Apostles tymes as it seemeth vsed for the day of the rest and seruing of God ought or may be changed or no. This one thing I may say that there was no (a) It is lesse true dealing for you to charg men wi 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ey haue not affir ed. great indgement to make it as arbitrarie and chaungeable as the houre and the place of prayer But where was pour iudgement when you wrote that the scripture hath appointed no discipline nor correction for such as shal contemne the common prayers and hearing the word of God what Church discipline would you haue other than admonitions reprehensions and if these will not profit excommunication and are they not appointed of our Sauiour Christ (b) Scriptures vnskilfully alleaged Math. 18 There are also ciuill punishments and punishments of the body likewise appointed by the worde of God in diuers places (b) Scriptures vnskilfully alleaged in the. 22. of Exodus He that sacrificeth to other gods not to the Lord alone shal die the death And in y e (b) Scriptures vnskilfully alleaged 19. of Deutronomie Thou shalte turne out the euill out of the middest of thee that the rest may eare and feare and not dare do the lyke The execution of this lawe appeareth in the (b) Scriptures vnskilfully alleaged 15. 2. Chro. by king Aza who made alawe that al those that did not seeke the Lord should be killed And thus you see the ciuill punishment of contemners of the worde and prayers There are other for suche as neglect the worde whiche are according to the quantitie of the faulte so that whether you meane ciuill or Ecciesiasticall correction the scripture (c) Or else you are deceyued hath defined of them bothe Io. Whitgifte Out of all these things whiche I saye the Scripture hath not prescribed or appointed T. C. seeketh quarels
to be holden for a lavve Whereby it is manifest that those things maye be retained in the Churche whych are not expressed in the Scripture In the same Epistle he reporteth the aunswere that Ambrose made vnto hym beyng demaunded whether it were lawfull to faste on the Sabboth daye or not to faste seyng that among the Churches there was some diuersitie in thys poyut Quando bic sum sayth he non ie uno Idem Sabbato quando Romae sum ieiuno Sabbato ad quamcunque ecclesiam veneritis eius morem seruate si pati scandalum non vultis aut facere VVhen I am here I faste not on the Sabboth vvhen I am at Rome I doe faste on the Sabboth and to what Churche so euer you come keepe the custome thereof if you vvill neyther suffer offence nor gyue offence The whole Epistle is worthy of reading T. C. Page 17. Sect. 3. 4. 5. 6. The Answerer goeth aboute to proue that they came yet out of good earthe and from good men whych if he had obtayned yet he maye well knowe that it is no good argumente to proue that they are good For (*) A true sayings but not truely applyed as the beste earthe bryngeth forth weedes so doe the beste men bring forthlyes and errours But let vs heare what is brought that if this visarde and shewe of truth be taken awaye all men may perceiue howe good occasion we haue to complaine and howe iust cause there is of reformation In the fyrst place of Saynt Augustine there is nothing against any thing which we holde for that that the Churche may haue things not expressed in the scripture is not (a) But it is against that that nothing should be placed in the Churche whyche God in his word hath not commaunded and therefore you do here but shifte of the controuersie against that it ought to haue nothing but that may be warranted by the scripture For they may be according to the scripture and by the Scripture which are not by plaine ter es expressed in the Scripture But agaynst you it ▪ maketh much and ouerturneth all your buylding in this booke For if in those things which are not expressed in the Scripture they are to be obserued of the Churche which are the customes of the people of God and the decrees of oure forefathers then how can these things be varyed according to time place and persons which you saye should be when as that is to be retayned which the people of God hath vsed and the decrees of the forefathers haue ordayned And then also howe can we doe safelyer than to followe the Apostles customes and the Churches in theyr tyme whych we are sure are oure forefathers and the people of God Besides that how can we retaine the customes and constitutions of the Papists in such things which were neither the people of God nor our forefathers I will not enter nowe to discusse whether it were well done to fast in all places according to the custome of the place You (b) Vntruth proceeding of Ignorance oppose Ambrose and Augustine I coulde oppose Ignatius Tertullian Tertul. de cor milit Ignat. ad phi epist. 5. whereof the one sayth it is nefas a detestable thing to fast vpon the Lordes day the other that it is to kill the Lord and this is the inconuenience that commeth of suche vnlearned kinde of reasoning S. Ambrose saith so and therefore it is true And although Ambrose Augustine being straungers and priuate men at Rome would haue so done yet it followeth not that if they hadde bene Citizens ministers there that they would haue done it if they had done so to yet it followeth not but y e they wold haue spokē against that appoinment of dayes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of fasting wherof Eusebius saith that Montanus was the first author I speake of y e which they ought to haue done for otherwise I know they both thought corruptly of fasting when as the one sayth it was remedie or rewarde to fast other dayes but in Lent August d temp ser. 62 Amb. 10. li ▪ epist ▪ not to faste was synne And the other asketh what saluation we can obtayne if we blot not our synnes by fastyng seyng that the Scripture sayth that fastyng and almes doth delyuer from sinne and therefore calleth them new teachers that shut out the merite of fasting which I therefore recyte bicause you would seeme by Augustine and Ambrose iudgements to alowe of the wekely and commaunded fastes Io. Whitgifte I haue sufficiently proued that the Scripture hathe not expressed all things that may be vsed in the Church touching ceremonies order and such matters for that is the question we haue nowe in handling and for further proofe and confirmation of the same I doe not disdaine the authoritie of any man especially of Augustine a man Augustine deliuered from vntrue surmises for his excellent learning and sound iudgement in most poynts of Religion estéemed of all that haue any shewe of learnyng or sparkle of modestie his opinicn of the sufficiencie of the Scripture in matters of saluation of the authoritie of it in iudgeing matters of controuersie is perfecte and sounde as may be séene Lib. 2. aduersus Cresco gramma Lib. contra Maximi Lib. de vnitate ecclesiae Lib. 2 de doct Christ ▪ Chap. 16. 20. Euang. Iohannis Epist. 112. and in a number of places else he speaketh also of Ceremonyes and traditions as moderately as diuinely and as warely as any man dothe as it appeareth euidently in these places that I haue in my answere alleaged And therfore he is not wyth suche contempte to be reiected nor yet defaced wyth vntrue surmises That which commeth from so good and learned a man is the rather to be beléeued so long as it is not repugnant to the worde of God And althoughe the best earth bringeth forth some weedes yet the good fruite muste not for the wéedes sake be refused This is a very meane reason good men sometimes erre and be deceiued therefore they must neuer in any thing be beléeued But to come to the purpose you say that this fyrst place of Saint Augustine is nothing agaynst any thing that you holde c. Surely and it maketh wholly for that which I holde for it proueth directly that there be some things wherein the Scripture hath not determyned any certaintie but lefte them to the disposition of others for he sayth In bis rebus de quibus nibil certi statu scriptura diuina ▪ c. and that these things be not suche as be repugnant or against the worde of God but accordyng to the rule of Saint Paule 1. Cor. 14. if you were not of purpose disposed agaynst your owne conscience and knowledge to abuse the reader you myghte easily vnderstande by my expressed words vttered in this portion of my answere and in all other places where I haue occasion to speake of the
like matters I woulde wishe you to deale sineerely the question that we haue nowe in ▪ The suttle dealing of T. C. in altering y e state of the controuersie hande is VVhether the Scripture hath expressed all externall things touchyng the orders Ceremonyes and gouernment of the Churche I proue it hath not both by the Scripture it selfe and by manyfest examples and by the iudgement of the beste learned you not beyng able to answere and yet desyrous to séeme to saye somewhat to shifte of these examples and authorities dallie at the matter and would make your Reader beléeue that I woulde haue thyngs vsed in the Churche contrarye or not accordyng to the Scriptures from the whych opinion I am as farre of as you and a greate waye farther excepte you reuoke some poyntes of youre Booke You shoulde therefore nowe haue kepte you to the improuyng of thys generall proposition and if hereafter in speakyng of particular matters I had approued any thing against the word of God you might haue spent ▪ your wit and eloquence in confuting of that You saye that thys place of Saynte Augustyne maketh muche agaynst me c. but you are greatly deceyued for Saint Augustyne in that place doth not gyue a certayne rule to the whole Churche but to particular men for it is hys aunswere so Ca ulanus demaundyng of hym Vtrùm liceat sabbato ieiunare A priuate man maye not take vpon hym to violate the particular orders of anye particular Churche much lesse suche orders as be obserued of the whole Churche excepte they be agaynst the Scriptures for bothe in thys and suche other rules of Augustyne that is generally to be obserued whyche the same Augustyne dothe adde in hys 118. Epistle ad Ianuarium quod nequè contra fidem nequè bonos mores iniungitur c. And that thys Augu. ep 〈◊〉 rule In bis rebus de quibus nihil certi c. is gyuen to particular men to dryue them from schismes and contentions in the Churche it is euident by that whyche the same Augustyne writeth in the ende of that Epistle ad Casulanum VVherefore if Idem you wyll willyngly content your selfe wyth my counsell namely whych haue in this cause being by you required and constrayned spoken peraduenture more than enough doe not resiste your Byshoppe herein and followe that whyche he dothe wythout any scruple or doubte Wherefore when Saint Augustyne sayth Mos populi Dei c. hys meanyng is that they are to be obserued as rules to kéepe priuate and particular men in order and in quiet obedience to the Churche Althoughe in deede The Church may not alter any order generally obserued without iust cause the Churche it selfe maye not wythoute iuste cause chaunge suche thyngs as haue beene generally obserued not beyng contra fidem bonos more 's agaynst faythe and good manners as the Lordes daye the daye of the Resurrection Ascention and suche lyke And there maye be iuste causes why thyngs once determyned by the Churche shoulde not be chaunged afterwardes thoughe before the same thyngs were arbitrarye and myghte haue béene otherwyse and in some other manner decréed as the Churche had thoughte moste conuenient If no suche causes be it maye alter anye vse Ceremonye or order whiche it hathe before determyned as Saynt Augustyne hym selfe declareth Epist. 118. ad Ianuarium His Idem enim causis id est propter fidem aut propter mores vel emendari oportet quod perperam fiebat vel institui quod non fiebat Ipsa quippe mutatio consuetudinis etiam quae adiuu t vtilitate nouitate perturbat For these causes that is to saye for faythe and good manners eyther that muste be amended whiche was euyll done or appoynted which was not done for euen that chaunge of Custome whych helpeth throughe profitte doth trouble through noueltie Nowe howe true thys collection of yours is Augustyne prescribeth thys rule to Casulanus that in those thyngs wherein the Scripture hathe determyned no cer aynetie he shoulde followe the Custome of the people of God and the decrees of oure forefathers that is that he shoulde vse hymselfe in those thyngs ▪ that be not agaynste faythe and good manners accordyng to the order of the Churches where he commeth therefore these Customes vpon iuste cause maye not be altered by the Churche let the learned Reader iudge Ap nate man a I sayde may not breake the lawfull and good orders of the Churche thoughe they be not expressed in the worde of God yet maye suche as God hathe gy that authoritie vnto in hys Churche alter and chaunge them as shall be moste 〈◊〉 euen according to this r le of Augustyne bis im 〈◊〉 id est aut propter fidem aut prop ores vel emendari oportet quod perpe m fiebat vel institui quod non f ebat c. before by me recyted We must followe suche cu omes of the Apostles and examples as they haue vsed What examples and customes of the Apostles we must follow and done for vs to followe but suche customes or doyngs of the Apostles as 〈◊〉 eyther peculiar vnto thems lues o 〈◊〉 onely for such 〈◊〉 they 〈◊〉 in ▪ we are not compelled to followe For as in the Scriptures 〈◊〉 be me preceptes generall some onely rsonall so are there in the sa of examples and orders some that for euer are to be obserued and some for a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that there were suche customes and orders among them shal be declared in seue all places as occasion is minis red Whether we haue receyued or maye retayne customes c. of the Papistes or no is partly to be discussed where I speake of apparell and partly in other places where more particular occasion is offered to speake of the same and therefore I will passe it ouer vntill I come to those places Whyther it were well done to fast in all places according to the custome of the place or no is not the question I looke to Augustynes meanyng and purpose not to euerye one of hys examples howbeit I thinke that there is a greate difference betwixte the manner of fastyng vsed then in the Churche and the manner of fasting vsed nowe in some Churches I thinke that in Augustynes tyme a man myghte haue obserued this rule of fastyng wythout anye offence to God But I doe not thinke that he may doe so in lyke manner nowe bycause it is certayne that in the Churche of Rome there are manye wicked opinions bothe of differences of meates tymes c. and also of merite ioyned to theyr fastyng and therefore are contra fidem bonos more 's and so not wythin the compasse of thys rule of S. Augustine I perceyue no repugnancie at all betwixte Ambrose Augustyne Ignatius and The Replyer setteth the fathers together by the eares without cause Tertullian For the Sabboth daye mentioned by Ambrose and Augustyne is not the Lordes daye whych we call the
diuers poyntes agrée not fully with him especially in the interpretation of some places of the Scripture when as in my opinion they come néerer to the true meaning and sense of it in those poyntes than he dothe I did neuer cleaue to Musculus or to any other man so that for his or their sakes I derogate any thing from suche as be comparable to them and haue deserued singular commendation for their writings If any one or mo learned men be of my iudgement though all be not I am not ashamed to vse their testimonie in that poynte though in some other poyntes I do not consent vnto them If I either vnioynt or racke in peeces from the rest any worde or sentence of Master Caluines make it knowne set it open that I may iustly beare the blame of it but if I deale truly and faythfully with him if I set downe his owne words whole sentences whole sections and as you say whole leaues without adding altering or diminishing then howe can you excuse your so vntrue and vniust charging of me Which if it were not so common and vsuall with you might the better be tollerated Chapter 7. the. 2. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 46. Sect. 1. It is the generall consent of all the learned fathers that it perteyneth to the office of a Bishop to order and electe Ministers of the worde In this sayth Hierome in Epist. ad Euagrium A Bishop dothe excell Hierome all other Ministers in that the ordering and appoynting of Ministers dothe properly perteyne vnto him And yet these men saye that the righte of ordering Ministers dothe at no hande apperteyne to a Bishop But for the order and manner of making Ministers peruse the booke made for that purpose and as I sayde before so I say agayne if thou hast any iudgement thou canst not but lyke it and allowe of it T. C. Pag. 40. Sect. 3. 4. 5. In the ende you saye it is the generall consent of all the learned Fathers that it belongeth to the Bishoppe to choose the Minister Because you acquaynte my eares with suche bolde and vntrue affirmations I can nowe the more paciently heare you thus baunting your self as though you had all the fathers by hearte and carried them aboute with you wheresoeuer you wente whereas if a man would measure you by the skill in them which you haue shewed heere he would hardly beleeue that you had red the tenthe parte of them Are all the learned Fathers of that minde I thinke then you would haue bin better aduised than to haue set down but one when as you know a matter in controuersie wil not be tried but by two or three witnesses vnlesse the Lorde speake him selfe and therfore you giue me occasion to suspecte that bicause you cite but * I had cited Am brose and Chrysostome before one you knowe of no more Nowe let vs see what your one witnesse will depose in this matter And fyrst of all you haue done more wisely than simply in that you haue altered Hieromes wordes For where he sayth wherein dothe a Bishop differ from an Elder but onely in ordeyning you saye a Bishop dothe excell all other Ministers c. I reporte me heere vnto your conscience whether you dyd not of purpose chaunge Hierome his sentence bicause you woulde not let the Reader vnderstande what oddes is betweene S. Hieromes Bishops in his dayes and betweene our Lorde Bishops For then the Bishop had nothing aboue an Elder or other mininister but onely the ordeyning of the Minister Nowe he hathe a thousande Parishes where the Minister hathe but one For the matters also of the substaunce of the ministerie the Bishop nowe excommunicateth whiche the Minister can not Besides diuers other things whiche are meere ciuill whiche the Bishop dothe and whiche neither Bishop nor other Minister oughte to doe I saye I reporte me to your conscience whether you altered Hieromes wordes to this ende that you woulde keepe this from the knowledge of your reader or no. For answere to the place it is an (a) It is your argumēt it is none of mine my wor des importetio such thing euill argument to saye the Bishop had the ordeyning of the Minister Ergo he had the election of him The contrarie rather is a good argument the Bishop had the ordeyning of the Minister therefore he had not the election of him For ordination and election are dyuers (b) Diuers mem bers of the whol may concurre in one and the self same person though one of them can not be verified of an other members of one whole whiche is the placing of the Pastor in his Churche and one member can not be verified of an other as you can not saye your foote is your hande I will not denie but that sometimes these wordes may be founde confounded in Ecclesiasticall writers but I wyll shew you also that they are distinguished and that the election perteyneth to the people and (c) Then haue you al this while striued in vay ne ordeyning vnto the Bishop Io. Whitgifte Shew me one Father that denieth that which I héere affirme if you neyther doe nor can then may my skill in the Fathers and reading also be as muche for any thing héere to the contrarie as you thinke I woulde haue it séeme to be But I will not followe you in your vayne of gybing I had cited before Chrysostome and Ambrose for the same purpose so that my witnesses be thrée and therefore sufficient except you wil make some lawfull exception agaynst them but bicause you may vnderstande that I haue plentie and store sufficient I will rehearse but one sentence vnto you of M. Caluines in his Institu Cap. 8. Ordinari Episcopos à suis Metropolitis iubent Caluine omnes veteres Synodi All auncient Synodes do commaund that Bishops should be ordeyned of their Metropolitanes What cause shoulde I haue thus to reporte Hieromes words to proue such difference betwixte the Bishop and other Ministers séeing that dothe not perteyne to this place and agayne considering that I haue at large proued the same in another place Are you so dull of vnderstanding as you would séeme to be doe not bothe the wordes that goe before and those that followe also declare my purpose in vsing that place I doe not translate Hieromes wordes but I declare Hieromes meaning and if the offence be in this that I say a bishop doth excel al other ministers then dothe your owne Author Illiricus out of whome you haue verbatim borrowed so muche and the other writers of the Centu. offende also for thus he sayth Ordinatio ministrorum propria erat Episcopi quo solo iure caeteris sacerdotibus praestantiorem esse Episcopum Centu. 4. ca. 7. Hieronymus scripsit ad Euagrium The ordeyning of Ministers was proper vnto the Bishop by the whiche as Hierome wrote vnto Euagrius a Bishop onely excelleth other priestes out of whom as I haue
to shewe that in citing him in this manner and forme that I doe I doe no otherwyse than other godly and learned men haue done You shal vnderstande ere I come to an ende that I haue not alleadged him for any néede Your argument to proue that Iames was no Archebishop bicause Eusebius and other doe call him Bishop and not Archebishop is of the same nature that your other arguments be that is ab authoritate negatiuè and therefore must be sent away with the same answere Whether the Apostles placed Iames and Simeon at Ierusalem or no is not the question But you are something deceyued in your quotation for you should in the place of the. 22. chapter of Eusebius haue noted the. 11. chapter The place of Ireneus thoughe it make not agaynst any thing that I haue spoken if it were as you doe alleage it yet muste I tell you that it is by you not truely vnderstoode For Ireneu dothe not saye that the Apostles dyd togither in euery place Irenaeu appoynte Bishops but he sayth Secundum successiones Episcoporum quibus illi eam quae in vnoqueque loco est ecclesiam tradiderunt According to the succession of Bishops to whome they committed the Churche that was in euery place Meaning that euery one of the Apostles dyd appoynt Bishops in those Churches whiche they had planted as S. Paule did at Ephesus and Creta And notwithstanding that in some Churches the Apostles togither dyd place Bishops yet that in other Churches whiche they planted Sometime one Apostle did appoynt Bishops Tertulli de praescript they dyd the same seuerally it is manyfest not onely by these examples of Timothie and Titus but of sundry other whereof we maye reade in ecclesiasticall histories and namely of * Policarpus made Bishop of Smirna by S. Iohn And you your selfe testifie the same of S. Iohn out of Eusebius euen in the nexte section Moreouer it can not be gathered eyther out of the wordes of Ireneus or any other ecclesiasticall historie that the Apostles dyd place Bishops any where but in the chiefe and principall Townes and Cities committing vnto them the gouernment of other Uillages and Townes and the appoynting of seuerall Pastors for them as it is also euident in the foresayde examples of Timothie and Titus and the wordes of Ireneus importe the same But if they had in euery Hamlet placed Pastors yet dothe it not followe but that there mighte be some one in a Dioces or Prouince by whome these Pastors shoulde be directed As Timothie at Ephesus Titus at Crete Chap. 2. the. 14. Diuision T. C. Pag. 69. Sect. vlt. And heere you put me in remembrance of an other argument agaynst the Archbishop which I will frame after this sorte (a) The maior false If there should be any Archbishop in any place the same shoulde be eyther in respect of the person or minister and his excellencie or in respect of the magnificence of the place but the most excellent ministers that euer were in the most famous places were no Archebishops but Bishops onely therefore there is no cause why there shoulde be any Archebishop For if there were euer minister of a congregation worthy that was Iames. If there were euer any Citie that ought to haue this honor as that the minister of it shoulde haue a more honorable title than the ministers of other cities and townes that was Ierusalem where the sonne of God preached and from whence the Gospell issued out into all places And afterwarde that Ierusalem decayed and the Churche there Antioche was a place where the notablest men were that euer haue bin since whiche also deserued great honour for that there the Disciples were first called Christians but neyther was that called the first and chiefest Churche neyther the ministers of it called the Arche or principall Bishops Io. Whitgifte It is a straunge matter that you should so grossely erre in making arguments séeing you haue taken vpon you so great skill in that Arte. But I will not be occupied in examining the forme of it Your maior is not true for suche offices maye be appoynted rather in the respecte of the time and of the persons that are to be gouerned Why these offices are appoynted than of the worthynesse of the minister or the dignitie of the plate and therefore your maior doth not conteyne a perfect and sufficient distribution Agayne the worthinesse of the person and the dignitie of the place be not at all the causes why suche offices shoulde be appoynted in the Churche but the suppression of sectes the peace of the Churche and the good gouernment of the same The worthinesse of the person may make him méete for suche an office and the place may be conuenient for suche officers to remayne in but neyther of them bothe can be a sufficient cause why suche offices should be appoynted I knowe the worthiest cities haue had the preheminence in suche matters but it was bicause they were the most méetest places for that purpose and the place dothe onely adde one péece of title to the office but it is not the cause of the office Lastly you haue not yet proued that there was no Archbishops in those places or that Iames had not that office Chap. 2. the. 15. Diuision T. C. Page 70. Lin. 9. This is contrar to that whiche was immediatly affirmed before And Eusebius to declare that this order was firme and durable sheweth in the thirde booke 13. chapter that Sainct Iohn the Apostle whiche ouerliued the residue of the Apostles ordeined Bishops in euery Citie Io. Whitgifte This is no reason at all S. Iohn ordeyned Bishops in euery Churche therfore there was no one Bishop superiour vnto them to gouerne and directe them in matters of The office of an archbishop in S. Iohn discipline order a d doctrine if occasion serued I thinke that S. Iohn him selfe was directer and gouernour of them all and in effecte their Archebishop And that dothe manifestly appeare in that thirde booke and. 23. chapter of Eusebius For thus he sayth In those dayes Iohn the Apostle and Euangelist whome the Lorde loued lyued Euseb. lib. 3. cap. 2 ▪ as yet in Asia whiche did gouerne the Churches there after he was returned out of the Isle from banishement after the death of Domitian And a little after he saythe That he went beeing desired ad vicina Gentium loca vt partim constitueret Episcopos partim tota ecclesias componeret partim clerum ex his quos spiritus sanctus iudicasset sorte deligeret Vnto the places of the Gentiles adioyning partly that he mighte appoynte Bishops partly that he might establishe whole Churches partly that he mighte by lotte choose suche into the Cleargie as the holy Ghost shoulde assygne So that whether he had the name of Archbishop or no certayne it is that he had the gouernment and direction of the rest and that he appoynted Bishops and other Ministers Eusebius dothe
by suffering thrée or foure to communicate but the contrarie rather for the Godly example of these fewe may eyther prouoke the rest to the like diligence or else confounde them and make them ashamed especially if eyther that Godly exhortation conteyned in the booke bée read vnto them or they be otherwise put in minde of their slacknesse by a Godly and carefull Minister These circumstances excepted in the rest of the matter in this part I agrée with you Chap. 6. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Page 118. Sect. 1. And vpon this eyther contempt or superstitious feare drawne from the Papistes lenton preparation of fortie dayes eare hrift displing c. it commeth to passe that men receyuing the Supper of the Lord but seldome when they fall sicke must haue the Supper ministred vnto them in theyr houses which otherwise being once euery weeke receyued before shoulde not breede any suche vnquietnesse in them when they cannot come to receyue it although as I haue before shewed if they had neuer receyued it before yet that priuate receyuing were not at any hand to be suffered And thus hauing declared what I thinke to be faultie in the Communion booke in this poynt and the reasons why and withall answered to that which eyther M. Doctor alledgeth in this place of the 80. and 81. and likewise in the 152. and 185. pages touching this matter I come nowe vnto that which is called the Iewish purifying by the Admonition and by the seruice booke afore tyme the purifycation of women Io. Whitgifte I sée not howe this in any poynt is true for lenton fast was then vsed when the Communion was most diligently and often frequented and indéede the rare and seldome receyuing came in with priuate Massing which had the beginning long after the lenton fast To receyue once euery weeke is a thing to be wished if it might conueniently bée And yet notwithstanding were not the Communion to be denyed to the sicke for it oftentymes commeth to passe that men through infirmitie and sicknesse are not able to come to the Churche in whole monethes and yeares whome this wéekely communicating coulde nothing helpe and it were agaynst all reason to debarre them of this seale of Gods promises this effectuall maner and kinde of applying of the death of Christ vnto themselues this assurance of the forgiuenesse of sinnes and this Sacrament of comfort especially in tyme of extremitie and sicknesse if they be desirous of it And thus you haue declared what you thinke to be faultie in the Communion booke in this poynt and the reasons why but of what force your reasons are and how iustly in this poynt you charge the booke the Reader may now iudge Of the Churching of women Chap. 7. the. 1. Diuision T. C. Pag. 118. Sect. vlt. Now to the churching of women in the which title yet kept there seemeth to be hid a great part Leuit. 12. of the Iewish purification for like as in the olde law she that had brought forth a child was holden Srife about wordes vncleane vntill such time as she came to the temple to shewe hirselfe after she had brought forth a man or a woman so this terme of churching of hir can seeme to import nothing else than a banishment and as it were a certaine excommunication from the Churche during the space that is betwene the time of hir deliuerie and of hir comming vnto the Church For what doth else this churching implie but a restoring hir vnto the Church which cannot be without some barre or shutting forth presupposed It is also called the thankes giuing but the principall tytle whiche is the directorie of this part of the Liturgie and placed in the top of the leafe as that which the translator best lyked of is Churching of women To passe by that that it will haue them come as nigh the Communion table as may be as they came before to the high aultar bicause I had spoken once generally agaynst such ceremonies that of all other is most Iewish and approcheth nearest to the Iewish purifycation that she is commaunded to offer accustomed offrings wherein besydes that the verie worde offering caryeth with it a strong sent and suspition of a sacryfice especially being vttered symply without any addition it cannot be without daunger that the booke maketh the custome of the Popish Churche which was so corrupt to be the rule and measure of this offering And although the meaning of the booke is not that it should be any offring for sinne yet this maner of speaking may be a stumbling stocke in the way of the ignorant and simple and the wicked obstinate thereby are confirmed and hardned in their corruptious The best which can be answered in this case is that it is for the reliefe of the minister but then it should be remembred first that the minister lyueth not any more of offrings secondarily that the payment of the ministers wages is not so conuenient eyther in the Church or before all the people and thirdly that thereby we fall into that fault which we condemne in Poperie and that is that besydes the ordinarie liuing appoynted for the seruice of the Priests in the whole they tooke for theyr seuerall seruices of Masse Baptisme Burying Churching c. seuerall rewardes which thing being of the seruice booke well abolished in certains other things I cannot see what good cause there shoulde be to reteine it in this and certaine other Io. Whitgifte It is the propertie of quarellers and of men naturally bent to contention to striue Stryfe of wordes proper to quarellers about wordes and termes when they cannot reproue any thing in the matter it selfe For in all these faults here pretended there is not one that toucheth the matter of the booke onely the tytle in the top of the leafe the cōming of women so neare to the Communion table the paying of the accustomed offrings to the Curate are in this place reproued as matters of great importance being all of themselues not worth the talking off and yet béeing as comely and decent orders prescribed by the Church may not be contemned and despysed without the crime of stubbornnesse and disobedience But that your quarelling may the rather appeare I will answere your cauilles in as few wordes as I can and first for the title which is this The thankes giuing of women after child-birth commonly called the Churching of women Now sir you sée that the proper tytle The people hardly broght to leaue accustomed termes is this The thankes giuing of women after Childebirth The other is the common name customably vsed of the common people who will not be taught to speake by you or any man but kéepe their accustomed names and termes therefore they call the Lordes day Sunday and the next day vnto it Monday prophane and ethnicall names and yet nothing derogating from the dayes and tymes Lykewise they call the Morning and Euening prayer Mattens and
continuallye to be taught that hée shoulde at all tymes remember his dutie so is it verye necessarye to haue certayne feastes wherein by the readyng and hearyng of the Scriptures men maye be particularlye styrred to the remembraunce and depe consyderation of the principall partes of our Religion and the good and godlye examples of the Sainctes of God in doing their dutie therein Chap. 1. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 120. Lin. 18. But besydes the incommodities that vyse of makyng such holydayes and continuyng of those which are so horribly abused where it is confessed that they are not necessary besydes this I saye the matter is not so indifferent as it is made I confesse that it is in the power of the Churche to appoynt so many dayes in the weeke or in the yeare in the whiche the congregation shall assemble to heare the worde of God and receyue the Sacramentes and offer vp prayers vnto God as it shall thynke good accordyng to those rules whiche are before alleadged But that it hath power to make so manye holydayes as we haue wherein no man maye worke any parte of the daye and wherein men are commaunded to cease from theyr daylye vocations of Plowyng and exercisyng theyr handye craftes c. that I denye to be in the power of the churche For proofe whereof I wyll take the fourth commaundement and no other interpretation of it than M. Doctor alloweth of in the. 174. page whiche is that God lycenseth and leaueth it at the libertie of euery man to worke sixe dayes in the weeke so that he rest the seuenth day Seeing that therfore that the Lord hathe lefte it to all men at libertie that they might labour if they thinke good sixe dayes I say the Churche nor (*) You drawe from the Magistrate his law authoritie and giue to the people too muche carnall libertie no man can take away this libertie from them and driue them to a necessarie rest of the body Io. Whitgifte The same God that gaue that libertie in that commaundement did appoynt other solemne feast dayes besides the Sabboth as the feast of Easter of Pentecoste of Tabernacles c. withoute any restraynte of this libertie Therefore the interpretation giuen by me page 174. of that place dothe not leaue it to euery priuate mans frée libertie agaynst the authoritie of the Magistrate or of the Churche but it giueth libertie rather to suche as be in authoritie and to the Churche to appoynt therin what shall be conuenient The Magistrate hathe power and authoritie ouer his subiectes in all externall The Magistrate hathe authoritie to abridge externall libertie What libertie can not be taken away matters and bodily affayres Wherefore he maye call them from bodily labour or compell them vnto it as shall be thought to him moste conuenient The libertie that God giueth to man whyche no man oughte to take from hym nor can if he woulde is libertie of conscience and not of worldly affayres In bodily businesse he is to be gouerned by Magistrates and lawes This doctrine of yours is very licentious and tendeth too muche to carnall and corporall libertie and in déede is a very perillous doctrine for all states Not one title in Gods worde dothe constrayne eyther the Magistrate or the Churche from turning carnall libertie to the spiritual seruice of God or bodily labour to diuine worship as those doe that cause men to abstayne from corporall labour that they maye heare the worde of God and worship him in the congregation And whye maye not the Churche as well restrayne them from working anye parte of the daye as it maye doe the moste parte of it for you confesse that it is in the power of the Churche to appoynte so many dayes in the weeke or in the yeare in the whiche the congregation shoulde assemble to heare the worde of God and receyue the Sacramentes and offer vp prayers vnto God as it shall thinke good according to those rules whiche are before alleaged and this it can not doe vnlesse in the same dayes during all that tyme whiche is no small portion of the daye it restrayne them from bodily laboure Wherefore this béeing no commaundement that they shall labour sixe dayes in the wéeke but a signification that so many dayes they maye labour as the same God that gaue this commaundement hathe done before in the olde lawe so maye the Churches likewyse for the encrease of godlinesse and vertue and edification appoynt some of those sixe dayes to be bestowed in prayers hearing the worde administration of the sacraments and other holy actions Chap. 1. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 120. about the middest And if it be lawfull to abridge the libertie of the Churche in this poynte and in steade that the Lorde saythe Sixe dayes thou mayest labour if thou wilte to saye Thou shalte not labour sixe dayes I doe not see why the Churche maye not as well where as the Lorde saythe thou shalt rest the seuenth daye commaunde that thou shalte not rest the seuenth day for if the Church maye restrayne the libertie that God hathe giuen them it maye take away the yoke also that God hathe put vpon them Io. Whitgifte The Churche is not abridged of hir libertie in thys poynte but vseth hir libertie in appoynting some of these dayes to the worshipping of GOD and the instruction of his people whiche shoulde not be counted a bondage or seruitude to any man To rest the seuenth daye is commaunded to labour sixe dayes is but permitted he that for biddeth rest on the seuenth daye dothe directly agaynst the cōmaundement so dothe not he that restrayneth men from bodily labour in any of the sixe dayes and therefore the reason is not lyke And yet the commaundement of bodily rest vpon the seuenth day in sundrie cases maye of a mans selfe muche more at a lawfull commaundement of a Magistrate in necessitie be broken In thinges indifferent priuate mens willes are subiect to suche as haue authoritie ouer them therefore they ought to consent to their determination in such matters except they will shewe them selues to be wilfull whiche is a great faulte and deserueth muche punishment But hitherto you haue not replied to any Answere made to the Admonition Chap. 1. the. 6. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 173. in the latter ende This is no restraynt for any man from seruing of God any daye in the weeke else For the Iewes had diuers other feastes whiche they by Gods appoyntment obserued notwithstāding these words Sixe dayes c. T. C. Pag. 120. Sect. 1. And where as you say in the. 173. page that notwithstanding this fourth commaundement the Iewes had certayne other feasts whych they obserued In deede the Lorde which gaue this generall lawe mighte make as many exceptions as he thoughte good and so long as he thought good but it followeth not bycause the Lorde dyd it that therefore the Churche may doe it vnlesse it hath commaundement and authoritie
to the Trinitie and those that are consecrate to our sauiour Christe are in that they be called Trinitie daye or the Natiuitie daye of our sauiour Christe by and by taken to be instituted to the honour of our sauiour Christe and of the Trinitie so likewyse the people when it is called sainct Paules daye or the blessed Uirgin Maries daye can vnderstande nothing thereby but that they are instituted to the honour of sainct Paule or of the Uyrgin Mary vnlesse they be otherwyse taughte And if you saye let them so be taught I haue answered that the teaching in this lande can not by any order whiche is yet taken come to the most parte of those whiche haue dronke this poyson and where it is taughte yet were it good that the names were abolished that they shoulde not helpe to vnteache that whiche the preaching teacheth in this behalfe Io. Whitgifte You haue so dismembred my booke in taking héere a péece and there a péece to answere as it pleaseth you and in leauing oute what you liste that you rather make a newe discourse of your owne than a Replie to anye thyng that I haue set downe Touching the names of the holydayes whiche you mislike I haue tolde the cause why they be so called whiche cause you can not improue and therefore you fall agayne to your accustomed coniectures and suppositions whiche are but very simple and slender argumentes What if euery one dothe not vnderstande so muche muste the Churche alter hir decrées and orders for euery particular mans abusing or not vnderstanding them He that is moste ignorant maye learne and knowe why they be so called if he be disposed if he be not the faulte is his owne the name of the day is not the worse to be lyked You might muche better reason agaynst the names of Sunday Monday and Saterday whiche be Heathenishe and prophane names yet I suppose that there is no man so madde as to thinke that those dayes be instituted and vsed of Christians to the honour of the Sunne of the Moone and of Saturne This is but to play the parte of a quareller as I haue sundry times tolde you to cauill at the name when you can not reproue the matter Those dayes be rather reteyned in the Churche to roote out suche superstitious opinions by the preaching of the worde and the reading of the Scriptures Neyther can any man that vnderstandeth Englishe and frequenteth the common and publike prayers in those holydayes except he be wilfull be so affected as you séeme to suspect Trinitie sunday the Natiuitie of our Sauiour Christe and suche lyke althoughe we honour the Trinitie and our Sauiour Christe in them as we doe in all other yet haue they their names especially bicause the Scriptures then read in the Churche concerne the Trinitie and the Natiuitie of our Sauiour Christe Augustine ad Ianuar. 119. sayth thus of the daye of the Natiuitie of Christe Heere first August it behoueth that thou knowe the daye of the Natiuitie of the Lorde not to be celebrated in a Sacrament or figure but onely that it is called backe into remembraunce that he is borne and for this there needeth nothing but that the day yerely be signified by solemne deuotion wherein the thing was done There is no place in this lande so destitute of instructions eyther by preaching or reading that any man can iustly pleade ignorance in suche matters and therefore séeing you haue no other arguments agaynst holydayes but coniectures and surmises and they false and vntrue or at the least not sufficient to alter a profitable order in the Churche holydayes maye still remayne and stande in their former force and strengthe Chap. 2. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Page 121. Sect. 2. Furthermore seeing the holydayes be ceremonies of the Churche I see not why we may not heere reuue Augustiues complaynte that the estate of the Iewes was more tollerable than ours is I speake in thys poynt of holydayes for if their holydayes and ours be accounted we shall be founde (*) It will be sound otherwyse to haue more than double as many holydayes as they had And as for all the commodities which we receyue by them whereby M. Doctor goeth about to proue the goodnesse and lawfulnesse of their institution as that the Scriptures are there read expounded the patience of those Sainctes in their persecution and martyrdome is to the edifying of the Churche remembred and yearely renued I saye that we mighte haue all those commodities without all those daungers whiche I haue spoken of and without any keeping of yerely memorie of those Saincts and as it falleth out in better and more profitable sorte For as I sayde before (*) Very absurdly of the keeping of Easter that it tyeth and as it were fettereth a meditation of the Easter to a sewe dayes whiche shoulde reache to all our age and tyme of our lyfe so those celebrations of the memories of Sainctes and Martyrs streyghten our consideration of them vnto those dayes whych should continually be thought of and dayly as long as we lyue And if that it be thoughte so good and profitable a thing that this remembraunce of them shoulde be vpon those dayes wherein they are supposed to haue dyed yet it followeth not therefore that after thys remembraunce is celebrated by hearing the Scriptures concernyng them and prayers made to followe their constancie that all the rest of the daye shoulde be kepte holy in suche sorte as men should be debarred of their bodily labours and of exercising their dayly vocations Io. Whitgifte Augustine speaketh not of holydayes in that place but of other vnprofitable ceremonies Epist. ad la. 119. vsed in particular Churches neyther grounded of the Scriptures determined by Councels nor confirmed by the custome of the whole Churche But the holydayes that we reteyne béeing not onely confirmed by the custome of the whole Churche but also profitable for the instruction of the people and vsed for publike prayer administration of the Sacramentes and preaching the worde can not be called burdens except it be a burden to serue God in praying in celebrating his sacraments and in hearing his worde And whereas you say that if theyr holydays ours be accounted we shal be found to haue The Iewes had me holydayes than we more thā double as many holydays as they had you speake that whiche you are not able to iustifie In the. 23 of Leuiticus there is appoynted vnto the Iewes the feast of Easter the feast of vnleuened bread the feast of first fruites Whitsontide the feast of trumpets the feast of reconciliation and the feast of Tabernacles whereof the feast of vnleuened bread and the feast of Tabernacles had eche of them seuen dayes annexed vnto them And if you wyll adde to these Iudiths feast chap. 16. the Machabies feast 1. Macha chap. 4. whiche continued eyght dayes togither and Hesters feast chap. 9. whiche continued two dayes you shall finde that
our holydayes be some what short in number of theirs so far are we from hauing more than double as many as they had But your spirite is acquaynted with suche vntrue assertions But you saye we mighte haue all these commodities without all those daungers c. and why not as well this waye whiche the whole Churche hathe from tyme to tyme allowed as that way whiche certayne particular persons of their owne heades haue deuysed There is nothing that you haue to saye agaynst these dayes but onely their names and that those memories of Martyrs strayghten our consideration of them vnto those dayes c. and that men be inhibited from bodily labour to serue God al which I haue answered before and the latter in parte you confesse for you woulde haue certayne dayes appoynted for publike prayer the celebration of the sacraments hearing the worde and you seeme not to deny but that the remembrance of Saincts and Martyrs may be kepte onely you mislike that in the rest of the day men should be debarred from their bodily labours exercising their dayly vocations Wel I perceeue that something you woulde finde faulte with if you knewe what They are not so bounde from labour as it appeareth in the lawes of this Churche but that they may doe their necessarie businesse and in déede they are so farre from scrupulositie in thys poynte that all the punishmentes appoynted can not kéepe a number of them from their worldly affayres not in the very time of publike prayers and preaching of the worde and yet I sée no cause why they maye not iustly be wholly debarred excepte some vrgent occasion require sometime the contrarie from their bodily labours in suche dayes for are not the housholders bounde of duetie as well to instruct their families as the Pastor is bounde to instructe them and when is there a more conuenient tyme than in suche dayes If you haue suche a regarde to their worldly affayres is it not more commodious for them to abstayne wholly from worke vpon these Holydayes when they fall than twice or thrice euery wéeke halfe the daye Therefore this reason of yours as it is worldly so is it weake bothe in the respect of God and of the worlde also Your imagination that the kéeping of Easter dothe fetter the meditation of Easter to a A bayne reason fewe dayes c. and so likewyse the reste of the Holydayes I haue answered before it is a moste vayne reason and you mighte as well saye that there oughte to be no certayne tymes appoynted for the receyuing of the holy Communion bycause the meditation of the death and passion of Christe and the application of the same is fettered to these certayne dayes whiche shoulde continually be thoughte of and dayly as long as we lyue The same mighte you saye likewyse of the Sabboth daye But you oughte to knowe that the especiall celebrating of the memorie of Christes resurrection once in the yeare is no more a fettering of our meditation thereof to that daye onely than the receyuing of the Communion once in the moneth is a strayghting of our consideration of the deathe and passion of Christe to that time onely wherein we receyue the holy Sacrament By this reason of yours we muste eyther haue suche memories celebrated at all times or at no time But wyse men can consider howe farre you wander for want of reason Chap. 2. the. 4. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 176. Sect. 3. 4. 5. Ierome writing vpon the. 4. chap. to the Galatians sayth on this Ierome sorte If it be not lavvfull to obserue dayes moneths times and yeres vve also fall into the like fault vvhich obserue the passion of Christ the Sabboth day and the time of Lent the feasts of Easter and of Pentecoste and other times appoynted to Martyrs according to the maner and custome of euery nation to the vvhich he that vvill ansvvere simply vvill say that our obseruing of dayes is not the same vvith the Ievvish obseruing for vve doe not celebrate the feast of vnleuened bread but of the resurrection death of Christe c. And least the confused gathering togither of the people should diminishe the fayth in Christ therfore certayne dayes are appoynted that vve might all meete togither in one place not bicause those dayes be more holy but to the intent that in vvhat day soeuer vve meete vve may reioyce to see one another c. Augustine in lyke manner Lib. 18. de ciuitate Dei cap. 27. sayth That vve honor Augustine the memories of Martyrs as of holy men and suche as haue striuen for the truthe euen to death c. The same Augustine in his boke Contra Adamantum Manachaei Discip. ca. 16. expounding the woordes of the Apostle Ye obserue dayes yeares and tymes wryteth thus But one may thinke that he speaketh of the Sabboth do not vvee say that those tymes ought not to be obserued but the thinges rather that are signified by them for they did obserue them seruilely not vnderstanding vvhat they did signifie and prefigurate this is that that the Apostle reproueth in thē in all those that serue the creature rather than the Creator for vve also solemnly celebrate the Sabboth day and Easter and all other festiuall dayes of Christians but bycause vve vnderstand vvhervnto they do appertayne we obserue not the times but those thinges vvhich are signified by the tymes c. T. C Pag. 122. Sect. 1. Nowe whereas M. Doctor citeth Augustine and Ierome to proue that in the Churches in theyr times there were holy dayes kepte besides the Lordes day he might haue also cyted Ignatius and Tertullian and Cyprian which are of greater aunctencie and would haue made more for the credite of his cause seing he measureth all his truthe almoste through the whole booke by the crooked measure and yarde of tyme. For it is not to be denied but this keeping of Holydayes especially of the Easter and Pentecoste are very auncient and that these holydayes for the remembraunce of Martyrs were vsed of long tyme but these abuses were no auncienter than other were grosser also than this was as I haue before declared and were easie further to be shewed if neede required and therefore (*) An vnlearned shifte I appeale from these examples to the Scriptures and to the examples of the perfectest Churche that euer was which was that in the Apostles tymes Io. Whitgifte I knowe that I might haue alleaged many other authorities for the proofe of The Repliee appealeth itō auncient authoritie this matter but I thought these two sufficient as they be in déede in such a matter as this is and your lightly reiecting of them will winne no credite to your cause among wise and learned menne You may easilie perceyue by the woordes of bothe these Authours that these dayes in their tyme were rightly and without all superstition vsed But you do well to appeale from these examples
and from all other auncient authoritie of learned menne for you knowe full well your lacke of abilitie to maynteyne this and other your opinions by the testimonies of auncient wryters nay you can not but confesse that the olde learned Fathers are vtterly agaynst you which is the cause why you appeale from them but it is an vnlearned shirt Chap. 2. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag â–ª 122. Sect. 1. And yet also I haue to say that the obseruation of those feastes firste of all was much better than of later tymes For Socrates confesting that neyther our Sauiour Christe nor the Apostles li. 5. ca. 22. did decree or institute any holydayes or laye any yoke of bondage vpon the neckes of those which came to the preaching addeth further that they did vse firste to obserue the holydayes by custome and (*) Socrates wordes vntruly reported that as euery man was disposed at home which thing if it had remayned in that freedome that it was done by custome and not by commaundement at the will of euery one and not by constraynt it had bene much better than it is now and had not drawne such daungers vpon the posteritie as did after ensue and we haue the experience of Io. Whitgifte Surely they were neuer better nor more pure from al supersticion and other errours than they be nowe in this Churche and therefore in that respecte there is no cause to complaine You do not truely reporte Socrates words nor yet his meaning for he doth not say Socrat. Lib. Cap â–ª 22. that euery man at home kepte those dayes as he was disposed but thus he sayth VVherefore neyther the Apostle nor the Gospell do at any tyme laye a yoke of bondage vpon them whiche come vnto the preachyng of the Gospell but menne themselues euery one in theyr countrie according as they thought good celebrated the feast of Easter and other holydayes of custome for the intermission of theyr laboures and remembrance of the healthfull passion his meaning is not that euery priuate man in his owne house kepte Easter and the other feastes as him lysted but that euery Churche appoynted such an order and tyme for the same as it thought conuenient and that this is his meaning that whiche followeth in that Chapter and expresseth his owne opinion of this mater dothe euidently declare His woordes be these Surely I am of this opinion that as many other thinges in diuerse places haue bene brought in of custome so the feaste of Easter had a priuate or peculiar obseruation with euery particular people of custome bycause none of the Apostles as I haue sayde did make any lawe hereof c. For his whole drifte is to proue that the feast of Easter concerning the daye and tyme was diuersly obserued in diuers Churches and Countries but he neyther can proue nor goeth aboute to proue that there was any Churche wherein it was not obserued And I haue before declared that the feast of Easter was obserued by the Apostles and sithence that tyme continued Chap. 2. the. 6. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 177. Sect. 1. Pag. 178. Sect. 1. c. Other reformed Churches also haue dayes ascribed to Sainets Bullinger aswell as we as it may appeare by these wordes of Bullinger writing Obseruing of holydayes in other reformed churches vpon the. 14. to the Rom. In the auncient vvriters as Eusebius and Augustine thou mayste finde certayne memorials appoynted to certayne holy menne but after an other manner not muche differing from oures vvhich vve as yet reteyne in our Churche of Tigurie for vvee celebrate the natiuitie of Christe his Circumcision Resurrection and Ascention the comming of the holy Ghost the feastes also of the virgin Mary Iohn Baptiste Magdalene Stephen and the other Apostles yet not condemning those vvhich obserue none but onely the Sabboth daye For perusing olde Monumentes vve finde that this hath alvvayes bene left free to the Churches that euery one should follow that in these things that should be most best and conuenient M. Bucer in his Epistle to master Alasco speaking of holydayes Bucer sayeth That in the Scriptures there is no expresse commaundement of them it is gathered notvvithstanding sayeth he from the example of the olde people that they are profitable for vs to the encrease of godlinesse vvhich thing also experience proueth To be shorte Illyricus writing vpon the fourth to the Galat. maketh Obseruing of dayes considered foure wayes this diuision of obseruing dayes and times The first is naturall as of somer spryng time winter c. tyme of planting tyme of sovvyng time of reaping c. 1 The second is ciuill 2 The third Ecclesiasticall as the Sabboth daye and other dayes vvherein 3 is celebrated the memorie of the chiefe histories or actes of Christe vvhiche be profitable for the instruction of the simple that they may the better remember vvhen the Lorde vvas borne vvhen he suffred vvhen he ascended vp into heauen and be further taught in the same The fourth superstitious vvhen we put a necessitie vvorshipping merite 4 or rightuousnesse in the obseruing of tyme and this kinde of obseruing dayes and tymes is onely forbidden in this place Thus you see by the iudgementes of all these learned menne that dayes ascrybed vnto Sainctes is no suche matter as ought to make menne separate themselues from the Churche and absteyne from allowing by subscription so worthie and godly a booke as the booke of common prayer is much lesse to make a Schisme in the Churche for the same T. C. Pag. 122. Sect. 2. 3. As touching M. Bucers M. Bullingers and Illyricus allowance of them if they meane such a celebration of them as that in those dayes the people may be assembled and those partes of the Scriptures which concerne them whose remembraunce is solemnised redde expounded and yet men not debarred after from their dayly workes it is so much the lesse matter if otherwise that good leaue they giue the Churches to dissent from them in that poynte I do take it graunted vnto me being by the grace of God one of the Churche Although as touching M. Bullinger it is to be obserued since the time that he wrote that vpon the Romanes there are aboute 35. yeares sithence which time although he holde still that the feastes kept vnto the Lorde as of the Natiuitie Easter and Pentecoste dedicated vnto the Lord may be kept yet he demeth flatly that it is lawfull to keepe holy the dayes of the Apostles as Confessio Ecclesiae Tigur alianim Eccles cap. 24. it appeareth in the confession of the Tiguryne Church ioyned with others Io. Whitgifte How perfect an Answere this is to these learned mennes authorities lette the learned Reader iudge You are not a Churche but a member of the Churche and therefore seing the matter is such as the Churche may take an order in you ought to submitte your selfe to the determination of that Churche
in such matters whereof you are a member What M. Bullinger hath in any other place consented vnto I knowe not but certayne it is that these be his owne woordes And that when he writte them he was of the same opinion that we are at this tyme in this Church of England Chap. 2. the. 7. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 177. Sect. 2. Caluine in lyke manner writing vpon the fourth to the Galatians Caluine doth not disallow this kinde of obseruing dayes his wordes be these VVhen as holynesse is attributed to dayes vvhen as one day is discerned from an other for religion sake vvhen dayes are made a peece of diuine vvorship then dayes are vvickedly obserued c. But vvhen vve haue a difference of dayes laying no burden of necessitie on mens consciences vve make no difference of dayes as though one vvere more holy than an other vve put no religion in them nor vvorshipping of God but onely vve obserue them for order and concorde sake so that the obseruing of dayes vvith vs is free and vvithout all superstition And agayne vpon the. 2. to the Colloss But some vvill say that vve as yet haue some kinde of obseruing dayes I ansvvere that vve obserue them not as though there vvere any religion in them or as though it vvere not then lavvfull to labour but vvee haue a respect of pollycie orders not of dayes And in his Institutions vpō the fourth commaundement Neyther do I so speake of the seuenth daye that I vvould binde the Church onely vnto it for I do not condemne those Churches vvhich haue other solemne dayes to meete in so that they be voyde of superstition vvhich shall be if they be ordeyned onely for the obseruing of discipline and order T. C. Pag. 122. Sect. 4. As for M. Caluine at the practise of him and the Churche where he lined was and i to admitte no one holy day besides the Lordes day so can it not be shewed out of any parte of his workes as I thinke that he approued those holy dayes which are nowe in question He sayeth in deede in his Institution that he will not condemne those Churches which vse them no more do we the Churche of Englande neyther in this nor in other thinges whiche are meete to be reformed For it is one thing to mistike an other thing to condemne and it is one thing to condemne some thing in the Churche and an other to condemne the Churche for it And as for the places cited out of the Epistle to the Galatians and Collossians there is no mention of any holydayes eyther to Sainctes or to any other and it appeareth also that he defendeth not other Churches but the churche of Geneua and answereth not to those which obiecte against the keping of Sainctes dayes or any holydayes as they are called besides the Lordes daye but against those whiche woulde not haue the lordes day kepte still as a day of reste from bodily labour as it may appeare both by his place vpon the Collossians and especially in that which is alleaged out of his Institutions and that he meaneth nothing lesse than such holydayes as you take vpon you to detende it may appeare first in the place of the Collossians where he sayeth that the dayes of reste whiche are vsed of them are vsed for pollicie sake Nowe it is well knowne that as it is pollycie and a way to preserue the estate of thinges and to keepe them in a good continuance and successe that as well the beastes as the menne which labour sixe dayes should rest the seuenth so it tendeth to no pollicie nor wealth of the people or preseruation of good order that there shoulde be so many dayes wherein menne should cease from worke beyng a thing which breedeth idlenesse and consequently pouertie besides other disorders and vices which alwayes go in companie with idlenesse And in the place of his Institutions he declareth himselfe yet more playnely when he sayeth that those odde holydayes then are without superstition when they be ordeyned onely for the obseruing of discipline and order whereby he giueth to vnderstande that he would haue them no further holydayes than for the tyme which is bestowed in the exercise of the discipline and order of the churche and that for the reste they should be altogither as other dayes free to be laboured in And so it appeareth that the holydayes ascribed vnto Sainctes by the seruice booke is a iuste cause why a man cannot safely without exception subscribe vnto the seruice booke Io. Whitgifte What soeuer M Caluines practise was in the Churche of Geneua yet in these places dothe his iudgement euidently appeare neyther doth a man alwayes vse that himselfe which he alloweth in an other for there may be circumstances to make that commendable in one place that is not so in an other He that condemneth the thing as vnlawfull muste also condemne the Churches that vse the same though not wholly yet in that poynt For as muche therefore as M. Caluine did not condemne other Churches for obseruing suche dayes it is a manifest argument that he condemned not the obseruing of those dayes in those Churches In déede it is one thing to mislike an other thing to condemne but he that maketh suche a sturre in the Churche for these matters as you do and that so disorderly can not be sayde onely to mislyke but also to condemne The place of M. Caluine out of the Epistle to the Galat. is not mente onely of the Lordes daye but of other dayes also obserued in other reformed Churches and in that place he maketh a generall answere as it were for them all as it is soone perceyued by suche as will reade that place He also that shall per vse his woordes vpon the seconde chapter to the Collossians shall finde the lyke sense in them In that he sayeth they be vsed for order and pollicie wee do not dissent from him but thinke so in lyke manner howbeit wée vnderstande as he doth Ecclesiasticall order and pollicie for in the wordes that go before the place to the Galatians he sayeth that the obseruing of dayes dothe also perteyne ad Regimen Ecclesiae to the gouernment Caluin in 4. Gal. of the Churche What better order and pollicie can there be than to haue certayne dayes appoynted wherein the people may reste from bodily labour to labour spiritually to heare the worde of God c. whiche M. Caluine called order and pollicie and not the externall rest of the Sabboth daye which is a commaundement of God and no constitution of the Churche neyther hath the Churche any respect to worldly pollicie in appoynting of Holydayes but to Ecclesiasticall pollicie whiche consisteth in hearing the wordes ministring the Sacramentes publike Prayers and other such lyke godly actions The place in his Institutions conuince all your shifting coniectures of mere follie for therein he playnely declareth his allowing in other Churches of o Holydayes than the
as it hath done from time to time S. August in his epistle Augustine ad Ian. in y e place before of me recited saithe that the passion of Christe his resurrectiō his ascētion the day of the cōming of the holy ghost which we cōmonly call Whitsontide is celebrated not by any cōmaundement written but by the determination of the church And it is the iudgement of al learned writers that the church hath authoritie in these things so that nothing be done against the word of God But of this I haue spoken partly before and intende to speake more largely thereof in the place folowing where you agayn make mention of it Admonition In this booke days are ascribed vnto saincts kept holie with fastes on their euens prescript seruice appointed for them which beside that they are of many superstitiously kepte and obserued and also contrarie to the commaundement (z) Exo. 20. 9. Exo. 3. 12. Deu. 5. 13. Esa. 1. 10. 13 14. Leuit. 23. 3. 2. Esd. 1. 13. Rom. 14. 6 Ga. 4. 10. 11 of God Six days thou shalt labour and therfore we for the superstition that is put in them dare not subscribe to allow them Answer to the Admo pag 173. sect 2. pa. 174. 175. pa. 176. sect 1. 2. Your collection hāgeth not together for how foloweth this these holidays be superstitiously obserued of some therfore you may not allow thē why should other mēs superstition hinder you from lawfully vsing a lawful thing The saboth day is superstitiously vsed of some Abuse of thin ges doth not condemne the things so is y e church so is y e crede the Lords praier many things else and yet I hope you wil subscribe to thē You heap vp a nūber of places in the margent to proue y t which no mā doubteth of y t is this portion of the comandemēt Six days shalt thou labour c. the meaning of which words is this that seing God hath permitted vnto vs six days to do our own works in we ought the seuenth day wholly to serue him Euery mā hath not bodily labour to do but may serue God aswell in these six dayes as in the seuenth And certainly he doth not by any meanes breake this cōmaundement which absteineth in any of these six days from bodily labour to serue god ▪ For this is the cōmandemēt Remember that thou kepe holy the Sabboth day as for this Six days thou shalt work is no cōmandement but tendeth rather to the constitution of the Saboth thā to the prohibiting of rest in any other day appointed to the seruice of God And it is asmuch as if he should say Sixe days thou mayst worke so do some translate the Hebrewe worde The place alleaged out of the first of Esay is far from the purpose ther is not one word there spokē of any holy days dedicate to saints but only the Lord signifieth that their sacrifices feast days wer not acceptable vnto him bicause they were done in hypocrisie without Esay cōdemneth the maner of sacrificing fayth so that he reproueth modum not factum their maner of sacrificing that is their hypocriticall kynde of worshipping him In the seconde of Esdras 1. in the place by you quoted I see not one worde that may serue for your purpose the wordes you quote be these I haue led you through the sea and haue giuen you a sure way Uaine quotation since the beginning I gaue you Moses for a guide and Aaron for a Priest In the. 14. to the Ro. the apostle speaketh nothing of our holydays but of suche as were obserued among the Iewes and abrogated by the commyng of Chryste And yet in that place the Apostle exhorteth that wee whyche bee strong should not despyse them that are weake nor condemne them though they vse not the christian libertie in dayes and meates That in the fourth to the Galat. Ye obserue dayes moneths and tymes and yeares c. Sainct Augustine ad Ianuar. Episto 119. expoundeth Augustine on this sorte Eos inculpat qui dicunt non proficiscar quia posterus dies est aut quia luna sic fertur vel proficiscar vt prospera cedant quia ita se habet positio syderum non agam hoc mense commertium quia illa stella mihi agit mensem vel agam quia suscepit mensem I know there be other that do otherwise expounde that place and that truly euen as they doe also that in the. 14. to the Rom. of certain Iewish feastes as Sabboths newe Moones the feastes of Tabernacles the yeare of Iubilie and such like abrogated by the gospell and yet superstitiously obserued of some But these places cā by no means be vnderstode of the days obserued by vs called ▪ by the names of saintes dayes for they were ordeined since the writing of this epistle And that you may vnderstād the differēce betwixt the festiual days Difference betwixte the Papists holidays ours obserued of the Papists the days allowed now in this Churche it is to be considered First that their Saints days were appointed for the honoring and worshipping of the Saints by whose names they were called oures be ordeined for the honoring of God for publike prayer and edifying the people by readyng the Scriptures and preachyng 2 The Papistes in their Saincts dayes prayed vnto the Sainctes we only pray vnto God in Christes name 3 They had all things done in a strange tong without any edifying at all we haue the prayers and the Scriptures red in a tongue known which can not be without great commoditie to the hearers 4 To be shorte they in obseruing their dayes thinke they merite therby something at Gods handes We in obseruing our days are taught farre otherwyse The Church euen from the beginning hath obserued such feastes as it may appeare in good writers Pag. 179 Sect. 1. Touching fastyng on the euens of suche feastes or rather absteyning from fleshe you know it is not for religion but for policie and as I thinke the same is protested in that Act where suche kynde of absteyning is established And therfore these be but slender quarels picked to disalowe suche a booke Io. Whitgifte All this haue you ouerskipped for what cause you know best your selfe ¶ What kind of preaching is moste effectual Tract 11. The firste Diuision Admonition The fiftenth and sixtenth Then (n) 1. Pet. 5. feeding the flocke diligently nowe teachyng quarterlye then preachyng (o) 1. Tim. 4. 2. in season and out of season nowe once in a moneth is thought sufficient if twice it is iudged a worke of supererogation ▪ Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 82. Sect. vlt. Pag. 83. Pag. 84. Sect. 1. These be but wordes of pleasure God bee thanked there bee ministers and suche as you mislyke of whiche feede their flocks diligently and preache in tyme and out of tyme according bothe to S. Peters and S. Paules
vntill I heare some proofe or authoritie to the contrarie Howbeit the waight of the cause lieth not vpon this text this is but one reason among diuerse Chap. 2. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 127. Sect. vlt. But M. Doctor heareth with his left eare and readeth with his lefte eye as though his right eye were pulled out or his right are cut of For otherwise the other wordes which they haue touching this matter might easily haue bene expounded by the argument and matter whiche they handle Io. Whitgifte How doth it then happen that you haue not salued the matter by setting downe theyr wordes and declaring how I haue mistaken them seyng you haue omitted that men may well thinke that this is not vttered of you in good earnest Now that you haue sayde all in this matter you must giue me leaue to let the Reader vnderstande what you haue lefte vntouched in my booke concerning the same whither it be bycause you consent vnto it or that you cannot answere it I referre to his discretion ¶ The profite of Reading Scriptures in the Churche Chap. 3. the. 1. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 90. Sect. 5. 6. Pag. 91. Sect. 2. 3. Isidorus sayth that reading bringeth great profit to the hearers Isidorus Tertul. in Apologet Tertullian sayth when we come togither to the reading of the holy Scriptures we feede our fayth with those heauenly voyces we rayse vp our affiance we fasten our hope And agayne he calleth the reading of the Scriptures the feeding of our fayth But what neede I speake any more of a matter so manifest you atly ioyne Hardinges opinion of reading scripture with the Papiste in this for in the confutation of the Apologie of the Church of England M. Harding calleth reading of the Scriptures to the people in the Churche a spirituall dumbnesse and a thing Parte 5. and in the. 15. Arti. of the Replie vnprofitable c. That to reade the Scriptures in the Churche is no new thing but most auncient and grounded vpon Gods worde it is manifest by that which is written in the. 4. of Luke where the Euangelist sayeth that Christe on the Sabboth daye going into the Synagogue Luc. 4. according to his accustomed manner rose vp to read and there vvas deliuered vnto him the booke of the Prophete Esay and as soone as he opened the booke he founde the place vvhere it vvas vvritten Spiritus Domini super me c. The spirite of the Lorde vpon me c. Likewise in the thirtenth of the Actes we reade that Paule and other of his company beyng in the Synagogue on the Sabboth day was sent vnto by the rulers of the Sinagogue Post lectionem legis Prophetarum After the reading Ad. 13. of the lavve and the Prophetes To knowe if they would make any exhortation to the people Iustinus Martyr Apolog. 2. pro Christianis sayth that in his time the manner Iustinus Mar yr was on the Sabboth day vvhen the people vvere gathered togither to haue the scriptur s read in the publike congregation and in the time of publike prayer for the space of one vvhole hovver Origen writing vpon Iosua Homil. 15. sayeth that the bookes of the Orig n. olde Testament vvere deliuered by the Apostles to be read in the Churches Cyprian lib. 2. Epist. 5. sayeth The Reader soundeth out the high and Cyprian heauenly vvordes he readeth out the Gospell of Christe c. Chrysostome vpon the Actes Homil. 19. The minister and common minister standeth vp and crieth vvith a lovvde voyce saying Keepe silence Chrysostome Augustine after that the Reader beginneth the prophesie of Esay Augustine speaking to the people sayeth Yee heard vvhen the Gospell vvas read Ye heard erevvhyle vvhen it vvas read if ye gaue eare to the reading dearely beloued vve haue heard in the lesson that hath bene read Admonition And that this is not the feeding that Christe spake of the Scriptures are playne d For reading ministers vievv these places Mala. 2. 7. Esay 56. 10 Zach. 11. 15 at 15. 14. Tim. 3. 3 Reading is not feeding but it is as euill as playing vpon a stage and worse too for players yet learne theyr partes without booke and these a mayny of them can scarcely read within booke These are emptie feeders e Math. 6. 22 darke eyes f Math. 9. 38 〈◊〉 3. ill workemen to hasten in the Lordes haruest g Luc. 14. 17 messangers that can not cal h Mat. 23. 34 Prophers that can not declare the will of the Lord i Math. 5. 13 vnsauerie salt k Mat. 15. 14 blind guides l Isay. 36. 10 sleepie watchmen m Cor. 4. 1. Luc 16. 1. vntrustie dispensers of Gods secretes n 2. Tim. 2. 15 euill deuiders of the worde o 〈◊〉 1. 9. weake to withstande the aduersarie p 2. T 3. 15. 16. not able to confute And to conclude so farre from making the man of God perfect to all good workes that rather the quite contrarie may be confirmed Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 161. Sect. 2. 3. For reading ministers you bid vs viewe these places Mala. 2. vers 7. Esay 56. 10. Zachar. 11. 15. Matth. 15. 14. 1. Timoth. 3. 3. The Prophete Malachie in the seconde chapter and seuenth verse sayeth on this sorte For the Priestes lippes shoulde preserue knovvledge and they shoulde seeke the lavve at his mouthe For he is the messenger of the Lord of hostes In whiche wordes the Prophete doth signifie that the Priestes ought to be learned in the lawe and able to instruct which no man denieth and if there be any crepte into the ministerie whiche a not able so to do it is to be ascribed eyther to the negligence of t Bishop and such as haue to do therein or to the necessitie of the Reading is profitable t me But here is nothing spoken agaynst reading for any thing that I can gather and if any man shoulde come vnto me and demaunde of me any question touching the lawe of God I thinke I shoulde better satisfie him if I did reade the wordes of the lawe vnto him than if I should make a long tedious discourse of myne owne to litle or no purpose It is the worde it selfe that pearceth and mou th the conscience I speake not this agaynst interpreting of the Scriptures or preaching Pag. 162. Sect. 1. 2. for I know they be both necessary but agaynst such as be enimies to the reading of them The places in the. 56. of Esay and in the eleuenth of zacharie tende to the same purpose they all speake agaynst ignorant foolish slouthfull gouernours and pastours there is nothing in them that condemneth or disaloweth readyng of the Scriptures or reading of Prayers No more is there in the fiftenth of Matthew nor 1. Timo 3. reade the places and you shal soone see with how litle iudgement they be quoted agaynst such ministers
of S. Paul to the Corinthians and not bicause I would haue the Churche to suffer any suche notorious offendours to receyue the Communion Chap. 2. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Pag. 132. Sect. vlt. And therefore Papists beeing suche as whiche are notoriously knowne to holde hereticall opinions ought not to be admitted muche lesse compelled to the supper For seeing that our sauiour Christ did institute his supper amongst his Disciples and those onely which were as S. Paule speaketh within it is euident that the Papists beeing without and foreners and straungers from the Church of God ought no to be receyued if they would offer themselues and that minister that shall giue the supper of the Lorde to him which is knowne to be a Papist and whiche hath neuer made any cleare renouncing of poperie with whiche he hath beene defiled dothe prophane the table of the Lorde and dothe giue the meate that is prepared for the children to dogges and he bringeth into the pasture whiche is prouided for the sheepe swyne and vncleane beastes contrarie to the fayth and trust that ought to be in a stewarde of the Lordes house as he is For albeit that I doubt not but many of those whiche are nowe papistes perteyne to the election of God whiche God also in hys good time wyll call to the knowledge of his truthe yet notwithstanding they ought to be vnto the minister and vnto the Churche touching the ministring of the sacraments as straungers and as vncleane beastes And as for the Papistes howsoeuer they receyue it whether as their popishe breaden God as some doe or as common and ordinary bread as other some doe or as a thing they knowe not what as some other they doe nothing else but eate drink their own condemnation the weight wherof they shall one day assuredly feele vnlesse they do repent them of suche horrible prophaning of the Lordes most holy mysteries Io. Whitgifte When our sauiour Christ dyd institute his supper Iudas was present and partaker thereof with the rest as it is euident in the Euangelistes and yet was not Iudas of the Churche but without the Churche and a reprobate You alleage S. Paule but there is neyther Epistle nor chapter nor any other place quoted which argues a guyltie conscience and willing to vse vntrue allegations or at the least vnapte I doe not allowe that Papists béeing notoriously knowne and continuing in their poperie should be admitted to receyue the Communion neyther are they admitted therevnto in this Churche And béeing suche as you speake of I thinke they woulde not come although they were compelled Chap. 2. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Page 133. Lin. 16. And if this be to gratisie the Papists to shewe that they ought not to be compelled to receyue the supper of the Lorde as long as they continue in their Popery I am well contente to shewe them thys pleasure so that bothe they and you forget not what I haue before sayde (*) You sayd before that if they be not meete to receyue the cō munion neyther are they meete to heare the worde Pag 118. Sect. 1. that the Magistrate ought to compell them to heare the worde of God and if they profite not nor wyth suffycient teaching correct not them selues that then they shoulde be punyshed And if you doe aske why they should be more cōpelled vnto y e sermons than vnto the supper of the Lord or why they are not as wel to be admitted vnto the one as vnto the other you see y e like done in the sacrament of baptisme whiche may not be ministred vnto all to whome the worde may be preached The reason also is at hande for the preaching of the worde of God to the Papistes is an offer of the grace of God whiche maye be made to those whiche are straungers from God but the ministring of the holy sacraments vnto them is a declaration and seale of Gods fauour and reconciliation with them and a playne preaching partly that they be washed already from theyr sinnes partly that they are of the housholde of God and suche as the Lorde wyll feede to eternall lyfe whiche is not lawfull to be done to those whiche are not of the housholde of fayth And therefore I conclude that the compelling of Papistes vnto the Communion and the dismissing and letting of them goe when as they be to be punished for their stubbornesse in Poperie wyth this condition if they wyll receyue the Communion is very vnlawfull when as althoughe they would receyue it yet they ought to be kepte backe vntyll suche tyme as by their religious and gospellike behauiour they haue purged them selues of that suspition of Poperie whiche their former life and conuersation hath caused to be conceyued Io. Whitgifte This is directly contrarie to that which you before affirmed page 118. For there Pag. 118. sect 1 you saye that those whiche are not meete to receyue the holy sacrament of the Supper are not meete to heare the worde of God if they be meete for the one they be meete for the other and that with what lawfulnesse they may offer them selues to the prayers and to the hearing of the worde of God they may also offer them selues to the Lordes supper and to whome so euer of them the Lorde will cōmunicate him selfe by preaching the worde vnto the same he will not refuse to cōmunicate him selfe by receyuing of the Sacraments These be your wordes there and nowe you sing another song going about to proue that the Magistrate may and oughte to compell those to the hearing of the worde who are not meete to be receyued to the Lordes supper Surely this is great inconstancie but I agree with you in this place and I Men persisting in wickeanesse and errours are not to be compelled haue before declared the vntruthe of your assertion in the other place This onely I muste let you vnderstande that when I speake of compelling eyther Papistes or other to the communion I doe not meane that they persisting in their wyckednesse and errours should be constrayned to come to the Lordes supper but that all ordinarie meanes of perswasion béeing vsed if they styll continue in their stubbornesse and refuse to communicate with vs suche discipline shoulde be vsed towardes them as is conuenient for their wilfulnesse and contempt of the truthe Your selfe before pag. 117. sayde that suche as wythdrawe them selues from the Communion The Replye agreeth not with the monition shoulde bothe by ecclesiasticall discipline and ciuil punishment be brought to communicate wyth their brethren the same doe I affirme also But the Authors of the Admonition saye that this is to dryue men in their synnes to the Lordes supper and therefore page 1 9 they woulde neyther haue Papistes nor other constrayned to communicate in the mysteries of The 〈◊〉 would haue no e cōpe led to communicate saluation meaning as I thinke that they would haue no correction nor discipline for
of Sarisburie his defense of the Apologie agaynst Maister Harding my L. of Winchesters answere to Master Fecknam Master Nowels bookes agaynst Dorman in all which this matter is very learnedly and painefully handled Admonition Is a reformation good for Fraunce and can it be euill for England is discipline meete for Scotlande and is it vnprofitable for this Realme Surely God hath set these examples before your eyes to encourage you to goe forwarde to a thorow and a speedie reformation You may not do as heretofore you haue done patche and peece nay rather goe backwarde and neuer labour to (t) Heb. 6. 1. contende to perfection But altogither remoue whole Antichrist bothe head body braunche and perfectly plant that puritie of the worde that simplicitie of the sacraments and that seueritie of discipl ne which Christ hath commaunded and commended to his church Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 138. Sect. 1. Hathe there beene no reformation in this Church of Englande sithence Unthankfulnesse of the Ad monitors the Queenes Maiesties reygne What say you to the abolishing of the vsurped power of the Bishop of Rome what say you to the banishing of the Masse Nay what say you to the puritie of doctrine in all poynts perteyning to saluation Is this no reformation with you O intollerable vnthankfulnesse T. C. Pag. 155. Sect. 1. 2. The other poynt is in the. 138. page where he most vntruly and standerously chargeth the Authors of the Admonition and maketh wonderfull outcries as though they should denie that there had beene any reformation at all sithence the time that the Queenes Maiestie began to reigne manifestly contrarie not only to their meaning but also to their very words which appeareth in that they moue to a through reformation and to contende or to labour to perfection denying onely that the reformation which hath beene made in hir Maiesties dayes is through and perfect We confesse willingly that next vnto the Lorde God that euery one of vs is moste deepely bounde to hir Maiestie whome he hath vsed as an excellent instrument to deliuer his churche heere out of the spirituall Egypt of Poperie and the common wealth also and the whole lande out of the slauery and subiection of strangers whervnto it was so neere This I saye we willingly confesse before men and do in our prayers dayly giue most humble thanks to God therfore And by this humble sute and earnest desire which we haue for further reformation we are so farre from vnthankfulnesse vnto hir Maiestie that wee thereby desire the heape of hir felicitie and the establishment of hir Royall throne amongst vs whyche then shall be moste sure and vnremoued when our Sauiour Christ sytteth wholly and fully not onely in his chayre to teache but also in his throne to rule not alone in the heartes of euery one by his spirite but also generally and in the visible gouernment of his churche by those lawes of discipline which he hath prescribed Io. Whitgifte The words of the Admonition page 137. be these Is a reformation good for Fraimce The Admonitors and the Replyer mislike our reformation almost wholly c. and can it be euill for Englande is discipline meete for Scotlande c. and is it vnprofitable for this Realme To this I answering say hathe there beene no reformation in the Church of Englande since the Queenes Maiesties reigne c. what wonderfull outeryes these be or howe vntrue slaunders let the discrete Reader iudge Doth not he that sayth is a reformation good for Fraunce and can it be euill for Englande insinuate that there is no reformation in Englande In the same place they say that hitherto we haue but patched and peeced my rather gone backwarde Moreouer to what ende dothe their booke tende but to the defacing of this reformation What is it that eyther they or you commende or lyke in this Churche nay what is it that you mislike not For to the sinceritie of doctrine as it appeareth you haue little regarde all things else you vtterly cast downe neyther the authoritie of the Prince the ministerie the gouernment of the Churche the administration of the Sacraments the ceremonies the discipline the forme or matter of publike prayers nor The good they acknowledge of the Queene dissembled almoste any thing else can please you and howsoeuer nowe in wordes you confesse that you are most deepely bounde vnto hir Maiestie c. yet bothe in tongue and in deede dyners of you declare that your meaning is nothing lesse For why doe you then so vnorderly so vndoubtedly so spitefully publikely and priuately in worde and in wryting deface hir procéedings slaunder hir gouernment depraue the reformation that she hathe made with sectes and schismes deuide the Realme set dissention among the people make the Papists more stubborne driue those backe that were welnighe persuaded thrust a misliking of the state into the hearts of many Protestantes encourage hir aduersaries separate hir faythfull subiectes one from another and greatly disquiet hir selfe But I will not prosecute this matter onely I desire of God most hartily that it would please him to worke that minde and affection in you in deede that becommeth dutifull subiects and quiet members of the Churche Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 138. Sect. 1. Englande is not bounde to the example eyther of Fraunce or Englande is not bounde to other Churches for examples Scotlande I woulde they bothe were if it pleased God touching Religion in that state and condition that Englande is I woulde Antichriste were as farre from them remoued The Lorde make vs thankfull and continue this reformation we haue and graunt peace to his Church and eyther couuert the hearts of those that be enimies vnto it or remoue them T. C. Pag. 155. Sect. 3. Pag. 156. Sect. 1. And whereas M. Doctor would bring vs into a foolish paradise of our selues as thoughe we neede not to learne any thing at the churches of Fraunce and Scotland he should haue vnderstanded that as we haue bin vnto them in example and haue prouoked them to follow vs so the Lord will haue vs also profite and be prouoked by their example and so be mutual helpes one to an other and stirre vp our selues with the admonition that our sauiour Christe stirred vp his Apostles that oftentimes those that are first are not forwardest but are ouerrunne of others that come after And wheras he would (*) A slanderous and malicious vntruthe priuily pinche at the reformation there for so muche as the Lorde hathe Mat. 20. humbled the one and exerciseth the other by ciuill warres and troubles he should haue in steade of rocking vs a sleape in our securitie put vs in remembrance of Gods scourges which hang ouer vs and of Gods great patience that still tarrieth for our repentance and that if he haue punished that people of his which haue suffered so muche for the profession of the gospell and which went with so
it be written redde or preached by man for the spirite of God is the Author of it man is but the instrument The rest of your proofes taken frō the vse of the Church as you say be all ab authoritate negatiuè and most of them ab authoritate hominum whiche kinde of argument your self haue before vtterly condēned I haue oftentimes could you that an argument à non facto ad non ius it is M. Zuinglius and other mens iudgement as well as mine is good neyther in diuine nor yet in humane thinges So far as I can learne Ionathan the Calday Paraphrast florished not in Christes Ionathan the Cald y paraphrast before christes time time as you say but. 42. yeares before Christ was borne and I thinke there is none of these Paraphrastes so faithfull in interpreting but that they misse in some places you can not but acknowledge that one good Sermon or Homilie of some learned mans well plainely redde to the people may edifie them more than the reading of these Paraphrastes And yet I suppose you knowe that the Iewes haue those Paraphrastes as yet redde in their Churches wherefore hitherto if you haue spoken any thing it is against your selfe But you say that this practise continued still in the Churches of god c. and you proue it by Iustine Martyr bycause he mentioneth nothing read in the churche but Monuments of the Prophetes and Ipostles Concerning your proofe I haue declared already of what force it is being drawne ab authoritate humana negatiuè Now that this practise continued not still in the Church you shall easily perceyue if you peruse that which Eusebius writeth The epistle of Ciement reade in the churche out of an Epistle of Dionysius Corinthius to Soter Byshop of Rome where he writeth after this sorte And in this epistle there is mention of an Epistle of Clemēt written to the Corinthians declaring that according to the olde custome it was read in the Euseb. lib. 4 ▪ Cap. 2 Church For thus he sayth we haue this day celebrated the holy day of the Lorde wherein we read your Epistle whiche we will alwayes read for admonition sake in like sorte as Dionysius liued about the yeare 147. the former epistle written to vs from Clement The Authors of the Centuries writing of this Dionysius thinke it not vnlike that his Epistles were also read in the Churche bicause Eusebius calleth them Catholicas Catholike Their woordes be these Non videtur prae ereundum quòd Eusebius basce epistolas Catholicas vocet fortè quia in Ecc esijs Cent. 2. cap. 10. piorum solitae sunt legi sicut Clementis This thing woulde not be omitted that Eusebius calleth these epistles Catholike peraduenture bicause they were wonte to be read in the Churches of the faythfull as the Epistle of Clement was And this may testifie of the practise of the Churche in Iustinus Martyrs time better than your negatiue Concil vas La. 4. argument And of the practise since the. 4. Can. Concil Vasens will giue sufficient testimonie where it is decreed that if the ministers be let by infirmitie or sickenesse the Homilies Homilies of fathers read in the church of the fathers should be read of the Deacons Chap. 2. the. 6. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 172. Sect. 3. But of readyng Homilyes in the Churche I haue some thing Bucers opinion of ho lies in the churche spoken before nowe it shall be sufficient onely to set downe Master Bucers iudgement of this matter in his notes vpon the Communion booke whiche is this It is better that vvhere there lackes to expounde the Scriptures vnto the people there shoulde be Godly and learned Homilyes redde vnto them rather than they shoulde haue no exhortation at all in the administration of the Supper And a litle after There be too fevve Homilies and to fevve poyntes of Religion taught in them vvhen therefore the Lorde shall blesse this kingdome vvith some excellent Preachers lette them be commaunded to make mo Homilyes of the principall poynts of Religion vvhich may be redde to the people by those Pastors that can not make better themselues T. C. Pag. 158. Tovvardes the ende And as for Master Bucers authoritie I haue shewed before how it ought to be weyghed and here also it is suspitious for that it is sayde that his aduise was that when the Lord should blesse the realme with mo learned preachers that then order should be taken to make more homilies which should be redde in y e church vnto the people As if M. Bucer did not know that there were then learned preachers enough in the realme which were able to make Homilies so many as the volume of thē might easily haue exceeded the volume of the Bible if the multitude of Homilies would haue done so much good And if the authoritie of Master Bucer beare so great a swaye with Master Doctor that vpon his credite onely without eyther Scripture or reason or examples of the Churches primitiue or those which are nowe he dare thrust into the churche Homilies then the authorities of the most auncient and best councels ought to haue bene considered which haue giuen charge that nothing should be redde in the church but onely the Canonicall Scriptures Io. Whitgifte They are M. Bucers woordes in déede neyther is there any cause why you should suspect them so to be And it is not his iudgemēt only but other learned mens Ridleys iudgement of homilies in the churche also and namely that famous man D. Ridlies Bishop of London in the treatise before rehearsed Wherein thus he speaketh of the Churche of Englande that was in King Edwards time It had also holy and wholesome Homilies in commendation of the M. Foxe to 2. Pag. 1940. principall vertues which are commended in Scripture and likewise other Homilies agaynst the most pernicious and capitall vices that vseth alas to reygne in this Church of England And truly these authorities if I had no other reason preuaile more with me than all that you or any of your parte had sayd or is able to say to the contrarie Chap. 2. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 159. Lin. 4. For it was decreed in the councell of Laodicea that nothing should be redde in the churche but the Canonicall bookes of the olde and newe Testament and reckeneth vp what they be Afterwarde 59. Can. conc Laodi rom 1. concil as corruptions grewe in the church ▪ it was permitted that homilies might be redde by the Deacon when the minister was sicke and could not preach and it was also in an other Councell of Carthage permitted that the martyres lyues might be redde in the church but besides the euill successe that those decrecs had vnder preteuce whereof the Popish Legende and Gregories Concil vasense 1. to 4. tom cōcil 6. c concil Colon. parte 2. homilies c. creptin that vse and custome was controlled
reason against their deniall If this be M. Doctors simple shift throughout his booke I trust M. Doctor that would haue bin hath not omitted to note it where he may finde it seing his eye sight is so sharpe that he can imagine himselfe to espie it where no man else can find it But let words go Chap. 6. the. 3. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 198. Sect. 2. You say that thereby prayer for the dead is mainteyned as may partly be gathered out of some of the prayers where we pray that we with this our brother and other departed in the true faith of thy holy name ▪ c. You know full well what out doctrine Prayer for the dead not mainteyned is concerning prayer for the dead and you ought not thus boldly to vtter a manifest vntruth for in so doing you do but be wray your sinister affection How proue you that a prescripte forme of seruice for burying the dead and the minister only to bury them doth mainteine prayer for the dead ▪ when you haue shewed your reason you shall hea e my answer In saying that these words gathered out of some of the prayers Pag. 199. 〈◊〉 1. 2. 3. that we with this our brother c. import prayer for the dead you do but quarrell E position of a prayer at Buriall when we say that we with Abraham Isaac and Iacob may reygne in thy kingdome do we pray for Abraham Isaac and Iacob or ather wish ourselues to be where they are In the like manner when we say that we with this our brother and all other departed in the true faith of thy holy name may haue our perfect consummation blisse both in body and soule we pray not for our brother and other that be departed in the true faith but we pray for ourselues that we may haue our perfect consummation and blisse as we are sure those shall haue which die in the true fayth Now weigh this reason there is a prescript forme of burying the dead and it is madea portion of the ministers office ther fore you will not subscribe to the communion booke T. C. Pag. 161. Sect. 1. And first o all as this almost is a generall fault in them all that they mainteine in the myndes of the ignorant the opinion of praying for the dead so is this also another generall faulte that these ceremonies are taken vp without any example eyther of the churches vnder the law or of the purest churches vnder the Gospell that is of the churches in the Apostles tymes For when the Scripture describeth the ceremonies or rites of buriall amongst the people of God so diligently that it maketh mention of the smallest things there is no doubt but the holy Ghost doth thereby shew vs a patterne wherevnto we should also frame our burialls And therefore for so muche as neyther the Church vnder the law nor vnder the Gospell when it was in the greatest puritie did euer vse any prescript forme of seruice in the buriall of their dead it could not be but daungerous to take vp any such custome and in the time of the law it was not only not vsed but vtterly for for bidden Leuit. 21. for when the law did forbid that the priest should not be at the buriall whiche ought to saye or conceiue the prayers there it is cleare that the Iewes might n t haue any suche prescripte forme and yet they had most neede of it for the causes of obscure knowledge and weaker fayth before alleadged Agayne by this meanes a new charge is layd vpon the minister and a taking him away from his necessary duties of feeding gouerning the flocke which being so greate as a maruellous dilig nce will scarsely ouercome ought not to be made greater by this being a thing so vnnecessary The Admonition dothe not say that the prayers whiche are sayd are for the dead but that they mainteyne an opinion of prayer for the dead in the heartes of the simple and that they declare mamanifestly enough when they say that it may be partly gathered c. Io. Whitgifte Your first reason to proue that there ought to be no prescripte forme of seruice to bury the The prescript forme of seruice mainteyneth not pr yer for the dea but 〈◊〉 dead and that the minister ought n t to execute that office is this It mainteyneth in the mindes of the ignorant an opinion of praying for the dead therefore there ought to be no prescripte forme of seruice to bury the dead neyther must the minister execute that office Undoubtedly this is a very ignorant argument if a man denie your antecedent howe will you proue it do you thinke the people whome you do so greatly in other places extoll to be so rude that they vnderstand not the English tongue Are they not able to discerne what it is to pray for the dead Surely I do not thinke any to be so simple that hearing the manner and forme of burying our dead can or will imagine that we pray for the dead And I verily beléeue that the ignorantest person in a whole countrey will deride the babishnesse of the argument The prescripte forme that is now vsed and the minister pronouncing the same wi ather perswade them to the contrary for where as in times past the minister vsed to say masse and dirige for the soules of the dead and sundry times moue standers by to pray for the dead at the time of buriall now doth he reade most wholesome scriptures declaring the myserie of the life of man the shortnesse of his dayes the happinesse of those that dye in the Lorde and the certeintie of the resurrection And who can hereof gather any prayer for the dead Your second reason is this these ceremonies that is a prescript forme of burying the dead c are taken vp without any example eyther of the Churches vnder the law or of the churches in the Apostles time c. therefore there may be no prescripte forme of seruice for burying the dead and the minister may not make it a péece of his office to bury them I denie this argument for it is negatiue from authoritie bycause you haue neyther warrant to say that there was no such order in the Apostles time neither if you had any such warrant doth it follow that it may not be so in our time séeing that in ceremonies and diuers other orders and externall thinges we are not bounde to the forme and manner of the Apostolicall Church And yet if I should say that in the Apostles time the minister vsed to bury the dead and ground my reason vpō the place of S. Augustine before alleadged quod vniuersa tenet ecclesia c. I know not what you would be able by any reason to say to the contrary Another argument you conclude thus It was forbidden in the lawe that the prieste should be at the buriall of the dead therefore the Iewes
many things out of order and that not by the iudgement of the Admonition and fauourers thereof onely but euen of all whiche are not willingly blinde I say if he do not amende these speaches the crime of false prophecie will sitte closer vnto him than he shall be euer able to shake of in the terrible day of the Lorde Io. Whitgifte There muste be as well rewardes for those that haue spent much time in getting There muste be rewardes for learning already atteyned learning and be learned as there muste be meanes to maynteyne men whiles they be in learning Grammer schooles and the Uniuersities serue for the one and Cathedrall churches with such other preferments serue for the other spoyle the one and the other can not possibly stande Your immodest and vncharitable speaches worke most discredite to your selfe That which I speake of other Churches by way of comparison I speake for the truth of the doctrine sincere administration of the Sacramentes and all other poynts of Religion by publike authoritie established in this Realme wherein I say agayne that there is no cause why it should giue place to any Churche that n we is And yet I do not defende the faultes of men or other corruptions from the which no Church is frée But for the cryme of false prophecie wherewith you charge me I truste it be farre from me I woulde pronenesse to contention and vncharitable iudging ▪ were as farre from you Howbeit we both must stand or fall to our owne Lord and therefore it is no good iudging before the time ¶ Of ciuill Officies in Ecclesiasticall persons Tract 23. A triall of the places alleaged by the Admonition agaynst such ciuill offices as are exercised by Ecclesiasticall persons in this realme Chap. 1. the. 1. Diuision T. C. Pag. 165. Sect. 3. The places alleaged by the Admonition to prone that ministers of the church may not intermeddle with ciuill functions one onely excepted are well and fitly alleaged and most of them vsed to that ende of writers which if I should name (*) Lorde howe lowe would you throwe him downe all would confesse that they are such as with whom M. Doctor is not worthy to be so much as spoken of the same day Io. Whitgifte ▪ This is more than modestie would suffer and tootoo outrageous for whatsoeuer the worthinesse of these men is otherwise yet am Ia minister of the woorde as well as they I am a member of the Church of Christ as well as they I am bought with his bloud as well as they therfore to say that I am not worthie to be so much as spokē of the same day wherein they are named is but extréeme immodestie passing contempt There is not so much attributed to Iesus Christ nor the Popes flatterers did neuer so excessiuely extoll him Are they so woorthie that a man may not be spoken of the same day that they are named who be they trowe we or what is their names But belike you are afrayde to name them least by speaking of me the same day you shoulde do vnto them some great dishonour in your iudgement they are better than God himselfe for the simplest that is may be named the same day that God is In déede a pretie cloake to couer your vayne bragging for I thinke you woulde haue named them if you had knowne them But to the matter Chap. 1. the. 2. Diuision Admonition Moreouer in that they haue s Luc. 9. 60. 61. Luc. 12. 14. Rom. 12. 7. 1. Tim. 6. 11 2. Tim. 2. 3. 4. Bishops pri sōs popishe Eugenius the firste bringer of them in ciuill offices ioyned to the Ecclesiasticall it is agaynst the worde of God As for an Archbishop to be a Lorde president a Lord Bishop to be a Countie Palatine a prelate of the Garter who hath much to do at S ▪ Georges feast when the Bible is caried before the Procession in the crosses place a Iustice of peace or Iustice of Quorum an high Commissioner c. And therfore they haue their prysons as Clinkes G t houses Colehouses towres and astles which is also agaynst the Scriptures This is not to haue keyes but swordes and playne tokens they are that they exercise that which they would so fayne seeme to wante I meane dominion ouer theyr brethren Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 214. Sect. 2. To proue that ciuill offices ioyned to the Ecclesiasticall is against the worde of God first you note Luke 9. verse 60. 61. where it is thus writtē And Iesus sayd vnto him let the dead burie the dead but go thou and preach the kingdome of God Then an other sayd I wil follow thee Lord but let me first go bid them farevvell vvhich are at my house How conclude you any thing of these places against ciuill offices in Ecclesiastical persons Christs meaning in this place is to teache vs I meane all Christians that when he calleth vs we ought not to be hindred from following and that forthwith by any excuse of doing dutie towards our friends or respect of worldly commoditie or for feare of any payne or trouble and this is spoken generally to all Christians and not alone to any one kinde of men T. C. Pag. 165. Sect. 4. For the first place if so be that the minister ought rather to leaue necessarie duties of burying 9. Lu his father and saluting his friendes vndone than that he shoulde not accomplishe his ministerie to the full much more he ought not to take vpon him those things which are not onely not necessarie dueties but as it shall appeare do in no case belong vnto him And although it may be applied to all Christians yet it doth most properly belong vnto the ministers Io. Whitgifte This is no answere to that which I haue sayde for I say that the meaning of Christ in this place is that when we are called to eternall life by him we ought not to protracte the time nor to séeke any delayes but leaue all and follow him this is the meaning of Christ this is the summe of my Answere and to this you say nothing but make a new collection that the minister ought rather to leaue necessarie duties of burying his father c. which though it be not the direct sense of this place yet I graunt it to be true for such ciuill offices as I allow in Ecclesiasticall persons are helpes for them to do their duties Wherefore as this place is vnaptly applied by the Admonition so is it vnanswered by you it may as well be vsed to debarre anyother Christians from ciuill functions as ministers of the woorde Chap. 1. the. 3. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 215. Sect. 1. Secondly for the same purpose you vse Luke 12. verse 14. where Christ speaking to him that sayde vnto him Master bid my brother deuide the inheritance vvith me answereth on this sorte Man vvho made me a iudge or a deuider ouer you Christ came in
place so farre as I can gather else I knowe not to what purpose you should spende so many words for they conclude nothing agaynst the cause but with it rather In déede I haue heard say that in some Churches which some of you haue gone about to reforme the minister was all in all and in all affayres his aduise and consent was had else nothing could be done Whiche authoritie surely passeth all the ciuill turisdiction that I knowe any man hath or desireth in this Church But you may intermeddle in the offices of Maiors Bayliues Iustices of peace in deede haue an oare in euery mans boate and yet nothing hinder your Pastoral office such is the excellencie of your wit and giftes aboue other men that the same thing may be lawfull in you a little portion wherof may not be permitted to others You make a fayre glosse vpon the. 19. of Deuteronomie but howe aptly the Reader may consider if he marke the place well the words of the text be these If a false Deut. 19. witnesse rise vp agaynst a man to accuse him of trespasse then bothe the men that striue togither shall stande before the Lorde euen before the Priests and the Iudges whiche shall be in those dayes and the Iudges shall make diligent inquisition c. First heere is no word of y e Sanctuarie for this that is sayd before the Lord M. Caluin in his harmonie doth interprete on this sorte Coram leboua i. corā sacerdotibus iudicibus qui fuerunt in diebus illis Before Iehoua that is before the Priests and Iudges which were in those dayes And in deede God is sayde to be there present where his true ministers are assembled wherfore your descanting of the Sanctuarie ▪ is without any ground Moreouer it dothe not appeare by any thing in this place but that the Priest had as muche to doe in the matter as the iudge had wherefore this place can not serue your turae in any respect The place in the. 9. of Esoras maketh altogither agaynst you for the rulers came The Replyer ouerthroweth his owne cause to complayne vnto Esoras that the people had married with the Gentiles and Esdras tooke vpon him as one hauing authoritie to reforme it and to separate them from their wyues as it euidently appeareth in the tenth chapter and. 4. and. 5. verse For certayne of them came vnto Esoras and spake vnto him in this maner Aryse for the matter belongeth vnto thee c. It appeareth that you haue very smal care what you alleage so it may seeme to be something You adde in the ende and say and so likewyse of matrimonie and diuorse c. But the Reader muste take heede that he imagine not this assertion of yours to be conteyned in any of these two places quoted by you It is but your owne bare affirmation you alleage no authoritie for it Chap. 2. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 168. in the midst ▪ For although Aristotles 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and Platoes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is instruments seruing to two purposes be lawfull in offices of the common wealth where things are more free and left in greater libertie to be ordered at the iudgement and aduise of men especially considering that vpon the diuersitie of the formes of common wealthes varietie of regiment may spring yet in the Church of God where things are brought to a strayghter rule which is but one vniforme ▪ the same may not be suffered And yet euen those common wealth Philosophers whiche doe licence vpon occasion that two offices may meete in one man holde that it is best and conuenientest that euery one should haue a particular charge For Aristotle sayth it is moste agreable to nature that Not Hercules himselfe against tvvo 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 should be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is one instrumēt to one vse And Plato vseth the prouerbe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 agaynst those whych will take vpon them diuers vocations and not content them selues with one and they make the meeting of many functions in one man to be a remedie only in extreme neede and pouertie of able men Io. Whitgifte These be but words onely conteyning no sounde proofes and require but a short answere whiche is that these ciuill and ecclesiasticall offices whiche we ioyne togither in one person tende to one and the same ende and serue for the same purpose that is the quiet and good gouernment of the Churche and the suppression of Tract 17. cap. vit vyce and sinne I haue proued before that the externall forme and kinde of gouernment in the Churche is not one and vniforme as you heere affirme but variable according to place person and time Diuers offices may be committed to one man in a common wealth though there be more fit for the same excepte you wyll make the state popular and restrayne the Prince from the libertie of bestowing suche offices vpon suche as she thinketh moste méete for them which if it be well marked is parte of your drifte Belike you or some of your friendes lacke offices and therefore you woulde gladly haue a newe distribution Chap. 2. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 168. somevvhat past the midst And althoughe bothe be vnlawfull yet as the case standeth in our realme it is more tollerable that the ciuill Magistrate should doe the office of a minister than that the minister shoulde intermeddle with the function of the Magistrate For when the accounts shall be cast it will fall out that there are more sufficient and able men to serue in the common wealth of this realme than in the Church and greater want in the one than in the other Io. Whitgifte This reason of yours if it were true dothe but accuse the Prince and hir Councell of lacke of due consideration of the state of this Realme for this is a reason of Policie and not of Diuinitie Undoubtedly you are set vp in the chayre of controlement and your giftes are so great that you dare presume to prescribe both new Diuinitie and newe Pollicie I doe nothing doubte but that the state of this common wealth is better knowne and considered than that there shall néede any of your aduertisementes for the gouernment of it and therefore I passe ouer these wordes of yours as voyde of reason and full of presumption and suche whereby of stomacke onely you séeke to discredite and to disable the state of the Churche and ecclesiasticall persons agaynst whome you haue conceyued displeasure Chap. 2. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 168. somevvhat tovvards the ende And if beside this both authoritie of the worde of God light of reason we will looke vnto the practise of the church many yeres after the tyme of the Apostles we shall finde that the church hath beene very carefull from tune to time that this order should be kept that the ministers should not entangle them selues with any thing beside
I know But let vs a little better cōsider your assertions and marke your drifte Page 34. you saye that there are no whoremongers nor Pag. 34. Sect. 1 drunkardes in the churche that are knowem bycause the churche doth excommunicate them wherby you seme to runne headlong into this heresye of the Anabaptistes that that is not the Churche of Christe in the whiche are knowen drunkardes and whoremongers no excommunication vsed against them The whiche heresye is well and learnedlye Caluine Bullinger confuted by M. Caluine in his booke against the Anabap. and by M. Bullinger likewyse Lib. 6. cap. 10. aduersus Anabap. Moreouer this your assertion séemeth to bring in rebaptisation For if whoremongers The assertion of the Replier tendeth to rebaptisation drunkardes and such lyke wycked persones by excommunication be so cut of from the Churche that their children may not be baptised then must it followe that their baptisme is cut of also which if it be true howe can they vpon repentance be admitted againe except they be rebaptised and what is this else but to make baptisme to be iterated as the Lorde ▪ supper is when as by the consent of all the Churches Baptisme once ministred remaineth per petuall there is but one baptisme wherewith it is sufficient once to be Christened séeing that baptisme once receyued doth endure for euer as a perpetuall signe of our adoption And how can you allowe the baptisme of heretikes to be good if you disallowe the baptising of their children that be excommunicated may an heretike excommunicated baptise and is that baptisme good and may not the children of hym that is excommunicated receyue the sacrament of baptisme can any faulte of the parentes hauing once receyued the scale of the couenant seclude their chyldren from rcceyuing the same seale you haue neyther example nor precept in scripture to iustifie your assertion with it is against the nature of the sacrament the practise of the Church and the whole consent of learned wryters some fewe excepted which erred in rebaptisation and yet you boldely here set it downe without any further proofe at all S. Augustine in his booke Contraepist Parme. reasoneth wholy to the contrary for there he proueth that heretikes whiche cut of them selues from the Churche do neyther Heretikes loose not their baptisme amittere baptismum nor ius dandi baptismum that is neither leese their baptisme nor authoritie to baptise and therevpon concludeth against rebaptisation whiche must néedes followe if eyther of the other be taken away The Donatistes them selues were at the length compelled to confesse that heretikes deuided from the churche did not amitte e bapt smum leese their baptisme And in the same booke August hath this generall sentence That the faulte of such heretikes is in cutting of them selues from the churche which may be corrected by returning againe to the churche non in sacramentis quae vbicunque sunt ipsa vera sunt not in the sacramentes which wheresoeuer they are are true This being so as it is then are you very nere to Donatisme nay farre beyonde it in The Replier nere to Donatis e. saying that the chyldren of the heretykes and suche as by excommunication are cut of from the Churche maye not be baptised Surelye if the Parentes beyng heretikes and cut of from the Churche do notwithstanding Retinere baptismum keepe styll their baptisme as Saint Augustine sayeth I sée not howe by any meanes you can iustifie the secluding of theyr chyldren from being baptysed or if otherwyse I can not sée howe a Papiste beyng conuerted can bee receyued into the Churche without he bée anewe baptysed or howe suche chyldren of knowen Papistes and excommunicate persones as haue bene baptised in this Churche of Englande or else ◠here from the beginning of the Gospell to this daye can be coumpted Christians vnlesse they be rebaptised And concernyng Papistes whome you haue denyed to bée in the Churche Pag. 34. Sect. vii and to whose chyldren also you here denye baptisme I wyll aske you but this one question what you thynke of all those whiche are not onelye chyldren to professed and knowen Papistes but baptised also in the Romishe Churche for if the chyldren of knowen Papistes may not be baptysed what shall wée saye of our selues and of our Parentes and predecessours who all or the moste of them were professed Papistes is not this the grounde of Rebaptisation and Anabaptisme But that the Reader maye the better vnderstande your erroure and the rather beléeue it to be an errour in dée I wyll set downe M. Beza his opinion of this matter from whome you are lothe I am sure to be thought to dissent In his booke of Epistles Epist. 10 answering this question whether the infantes of suche as are excommunicated Beza li. Epist. Epist. 10. may be baptised and in whose fayth when as they of whome they are begotten are not members of the Churche determineth thus God forbidde that we should iudge all one and a lyke of all suche as are not called the members of the Churche for there are foure kyndes of men farre differing among them selues One is of them whiche neyther by election neyther in them selues are by anye meanes the members of Christe whome we cal by the worde of God reprobate and the vessels of anger and appointed to destruction although many of them sometime in apparance that is in outwarde profession yea and a certayne semblance of faythe continuing for a tyme wherewith they mocke both them selues and other are reckened among the members of the Churche of whome Iohn sayeth if they had bene of vs they would haue taryed with vs. The seconde is of those whiche are chosen in Christe by eternall election and therefore are the members of Christe yet by purpose onelye not in deede in whiche sense Paule sayth that he was seuered from his mothers wombe when as notwithstanding hee was a long tyme the member of Sathan persecuting Christ and in an other place sayeth that grace was giuen vs in Christe before euerlasting tymes and agayne that God loued vs when we were his enemies In the thyrde kynde wee counte them that bothe by election and in deede are the sonnes of God bycause as the Apostle sayth they are ruled by the spirite of God Finally in the fourth place wee recken those who whereas they appertayne to the election of God and be engraffed in Christ yet bycause hauing fallen in some thing as men often doe they be an offence to the other members therefore least the wound should bee deadlye whiche Sathan and the fleshe hath gyuen them neede a more sharpe remedye and are therfore excommunicated or delyuered to Sathan not that they should peryshe for it is not possible that they should peryshe whiche are the members of Christe But that godlye sorowefulnesse may cause repentance eyther that their fleshe that is the olde man dying their spirite may be saued in the daye of the
Lorde These therefore be they whome we call excommunicated and who for two respectes are not members of the Churche one according to men bycause they are excluded from the holy felowship of the faythfull the other according to God bycause that saying of Christe is sure that that is bounde in heauen whiche is ryghtlye bounde of the Churche in the earth But it is an other thyng truelye to bee bounde in heauen than to bee cast out of that true kyngdome of heauen whiche neuer happeneth to anye of the electe For that saying of Christe standeth that those shall neuer bee caste out whome the Father hath giuen the Sonne and that of Lohn if they had bene of vs they woulde haue taried with vs and that of the Apostle the foundation of God standeth sure hauing this seale the Lorde knoweth who be is Therefore as touching Christe these are sayd not to be his nor members of the Churche not as the firste whiche are reprobate and damned but bycause for a tyme as concernyng the force and efficacie of the spirite they are without hym as beyng so engraffed in hym that they receyue not that lyuelye nouryshement of the spirite of Christe for a tyme that is tyll grace of repentaunce be gyuen them To conclude the difference betwixt these and the firste is such as is betweene a legge of woode ioyned cunninglye to a true bodye whiche notwithstanding is not a legge in deede neyther is truely called a parte of that man and betwyxt a true legge that yet for a tyme receyueth not nouryshement in suche sorte that vnles it be refreshed by the strengthe of some sharpe medicine it wyll necessaryly putrific and cleane peryshe VVherefore seeing these thinges be thus and charitie byddeth vs to hope well of all yea and also to take care for them whiche are helde as captiues in the snare of the Deuyll God forbydde that the Parentes beyng excommunicated wee should conclude that theyr posteritie belongeth not to the kyngdome of God Furthermore there is great difference betweene those whiche although they bee notorious offendours neuerthelesse departe not from the Churche and betweene those that are manifeste rennegates ioyning them selues with the enimies to oppresse the truthe of the Gospell Further it were vnreasonable to esteeme of Papistes muche lesse Christians excommunicated no otherwise than of Turkes for although it bee vnpossible to serue the Pope and Christ togyther yet it is certayne that Poperie is an erring of the Christian Churche VVherefore the Lorde hath in the middest of that goulfe of Papistrie preserued Baptisme that is the first entering into the Churche whereby it appeareth as also the thing it selfe proueth in vs that although Papisme be not the Churche yet the Churche hathe bene and is as it were drowned or couered in it whiche can not by anie meanes bee sayde of the Turkes whiche neuer gaue theyr names to Chryst. Lastly for so muche as the goodnesse of God is extended to a thousande generations that is as it were without ende it were harde if wee shoulde iudge of the children whether they belong to the couenant of God or no by the profession of their last Parentes Therefore of all these argumentes ioyned togither we conclude that the children of persons excommunicate abyding yet in the Churche of God can by no right bee debarred from Baptisme if in case a meete suretie bee had whiche will make promyse to the Church that they shall be vertuously brought vp which I thinke ought to be done of the Ministers them selues and other Godly men rather than theyr Baptisme shoulde anie longer be deferred Yet it shall not be amisse if the Minister before he baptise the infant taking hereof occasion earnestly exhort the father that is excommunicated being present to epentance before the assemblie whiche is oftentymes practised in oure Churches Hitherto Beza Chap. 4. the 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 137. Sect. 2. And in the. 193. page he asketh what if the Parentes of the childe be vnknowen if it be yet if godly men will present it to baptisme with promyse of seing it brought vp in the feare of the Lorde for so much as it is founde in a place where the churche is and therefore by likelyhoode to apperteyne to some that was of the churche I thynke it may be baptised if the churche thynke it good in this last case Io. Whitgifte And why should you but thinke so what reason is there why it should not be baptised But yet this answere of yours dothe nothing iustifie the Aomonition Whiche would The parentes to presente their chyldren if conuentently makyng an open confession of that faythe wherein he would haue his chylde baptised For this can not be done where the Parentes be vnknowen neither is in such case any other man able to testifie of what faythe or behauiour the parentes were Chap. 4. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 137. Sect. vlt. Then he goeth forth in the. III. Page to proue that the children of those which he hath reckened may be baptised and demaundeth whither a wicked father may haue a good childe a Papist or Heretike father a beleeuing chylde yes verily may they So may haue and hath the Turke and the Iewe and yet their children are not to be receyued vnlesse their fayth doth fitste appeare by confession But you say the Papiste an Heretike be Baptised and so are not the Iewes and Turkes Their baptisme beyng cut of from the Churche maketh them as much straungers vnto it as was Ismaell and Esau whiche albeit they were circumcised yet beyng caste out of the Churche they were no more to be accompted to be of the body of Gods people then those whiche neuer were in the Churche Now you see (*) It is poyson in deede and the same whi he I suspected the poyson as you terme it which lieth hidde vnder these wordes and if it be as you say poyson let vs haue some of your triacle In all the reste of that section there is nothing but that which he spake of before onely the Eldership is amed which commeth to be intreated of in the next section Io. Whitgifte If their baptisme be so cut of that it also taketh away the priuiledge from their children howe can they be admitted agayne into the Churche without rebaptisation S. Augustine in the place before recited sayeth that Heretikes though they be cut of from the Churche yet they do retayne their Baptisme whiche beyng true there is no reason to seclude their children frō it I cannot learne but that the Sonnes of Ismaell were circumcised for it is written of the Egyptians as P. Martyr doth note P. Martyr in 4. Rom. that they circumcided at 14. yeares of age bycause Ismael was then circumcised Which tyme of circumcision the Arabians obserued in lyke manner And therefore it is not vnlike but that the Posteritie of Ismael was circumcised And as for the Sonnes of Esau it is not like that they were debarred from circumcision