that S. Paul meaneth there a full plerophorian and perswasion that that which he doth is well done I graunt it But from whence can that spring but from fayth and how can we perswade and assure our selues that we do well but whereas we haue the word of God for our warrant so that the Apostle by a metonimie Subiecti pro adiuncto doth geue to vnderstād from whence the assured persuasion doth spring Whereupon it falleth out the forasmuch as in all our actions both publyke priuate we ought to follow the direction of the word of God in matters of the church and which concerne all there may be nothing done but by the word of god Not that we say as you charge vs in these words that no ceremonie c. may be in the church except the same be expressed in the word of God but that in making orders and ceremonies of the church it is not lawfull to doe what men list but they are bound to follow the generall rules of the scripture that are geuen to be the squire whereby those should be squared out Which rules I will here set downe as those which I would haue as well al orders ceremonies of the church framed by as by the which I wil be content that all those orders ceremonies which are now in question whether they be good conuenient or no should be tried examined by And they are those rules which Paule gaue in such cases as are not particularly mētioned of in scripture The first that they offend not any especially the Church of God. The second is that which you cite also out of Paul that all be done in order and comclynes The thirde that all be done to edifying The last that they be done to the glory of God. So that you see that those things which you recken vp of the houre time day of prayer c. albeit they be not specified in the scripture yet they are not left to any to order at their pleasure or so that they be not agaynst the worde of God but euen by and according to the word of God they must be established and those alone to be taken which do agree best and nearest with these rules before recited And so it is brought to passe which you thinke a great absurdity that al things in the church should be appoynted according to the word of god Wherby it likewise appeareth that we deny not but certayne things are left to the order of the church because they are of the nature of those which are varyed by times places persons other circumstances so could not at once be set down established for euer yet so left to the order of the church as that it do nothing agaynst the rules aforsayde But how doth this follow that certaine things are left to the order of the church therfore to make a new ministerie by making an Archbishop to alter the ministerie the is appointed by making a bishop or pastor without a church or flock to make a deacon without appointing him his church wherof he is a deacon wher he might exercise his charge of prouiding for the pore to abrogate cleane both name office of the elder with other more how I say doth it follow the because the church hath power to order certaine things therfore it hath power to do so of these which God hath ordayned and established of the which there is no tyme nor place nor person nor any other circumstance which can cause any alteration or chaunge Which thing shall better appeare both in the discourse of the whole booke and especially there where you go about to shew certayne reasons why there should be other gouernmēt now then was in the tyme of the apostles But whyle you goe about to seme to say much rake vp a great nomber of thinges you haue made very euill mestin and you haue put in one thinges which are not paires nor matches Because I will not draw the reader willingly into more questions then are already put vppe I will not stand to dispute whether the Lordes day which we call Sonday being the day of the resurrection of our sauiour Christ and so the day wherein the worlde was renued as the Iewes sabboth was the day wherein the world was finished and being in all the churches in the Apostles times as it seemeth vsed for the day of the rest and seruing of God ought or may be changed or no. This one thing I may say that there was no great iudgement to make it as arbytrarie and chaungeable as the houre and the place of prayer But where was your iudgement when you wrote that the scripture hath appoynted no discipline nor correction for suche as shall contemne the common prayers and hearing the word of God VVhat churche discipline would you haue other then admonions reprehensions and if these will not profitte excommunication and are they not appoynted of our sauioure Christe There are also ciuill punishments and punishmentes of the body likewise appoynted by the word of God in diuers places in Exodus He that sacrificeth to other gods and not to the Lorde alone shall dye the death And in Deutcronomie Thou shalt burne out the euill out of the middest of thee that the rest may heare learne and not dare do the like The execution of thys law appeareth in the Chro. by king Aza who made a law that all those that did not seke the Lord shuld be kilde And thus you see the ciuill punishment of contēners of the word prayers There are other for such as neglect the worde which are according to the quantitie of the fault so that whether you meane ciuil or ecclesiasticall correction the scripture hath defined of them both I omit that there be examples of pulpits in Nehemias which the common translation calleth Ezra of chaires in S. Mathew where by the chaire of Moses our sauioure Christ meaning the doctrine of Moses doth also declare the manner which they vsed in teaching Of sitting at the communion which the Euangelist noteth to haue bene done of our Sauioure Christ with his disciples which examples are not to be lightly chaunged and vppon many occasions But this I can not omitte that you make it an indifferent thing to preache the word of God in churches or in houses that is to say priuately or publikely For what better interpretation can I haue then of your owne wordes which say by and by after of Baptisme that it is at the order of the church to make it priuate or publike For if it be in the power of the church to order that Baptisme may be ministred at the house of euery priuate person it is also in her power to ordayne that the worde be preached also priuately And then where is that which Salomon sayth that wysdom cryeth openly in the streates and at the corners of the stretes where
and that to be vnderstanded of our ministers which was of theirs or of our faultes which was of theirs Thys is not the way to Anabaptisme but to all heresies and schismes that euer haue bene or shall be For if you goe forwarde in clipping the scripture as you begin you will leaue vs nothing in the ende wherewith we may eyther defend our selues agaynst heretikes or be able to strike at them Whereas you say there is a great difference betweene the seueritie of the law and lenitie of the gospell me thinkes I smell a spice of the error of the Maniches which were also schollers in that behalfe of the olde hereticke Cerdon that there is a good and an euill a gentle and a seuere God one vnder the law and an other vnder the gospell For to saye that God was then a seuere punysher of sinne and that now he is not at so great hatred wyth it but that he will haue it gentlyer and softlyer dealt with is euen all one in effect with that which supposeth two Goddes I will ioyne with you in it that the transgressyons of the law in the tyme of the gospell oughte rather to be seuerelyer punyshed then they were vnder the law for as muche as the knowledge is greater and the aboundance of the spirite of God whereby the lawes are kept is more plentifull then vnder the lawe At this tyme I will content me with the place of Zach. which prophesying of the kingdome of Christe and of the tyme of the gospell sayth that then the father and mother of the false Prophet shall cause theyr owne sonne to bee put to deathe It is as absurde which is brought to proue that the papistes whiche worshippe God falsly doe not faulte so haynously as the Israelites dyd which worshipped the Idolles As who shoulde saye the Iewes or any other the grossest idolaters that euer were dyd euer take those thinges which they worshipped Serpentes Oxen Fire Water c. to be God or knew not the Images before which they fell downe were Woode or Stone Siluer and Gold. And who knoweth not that they thought that they worshipped by them and in them the God which made heauen earth The Iewes when they molted a golden calfe and fell downe before it did neuer thinke that to be God * but sayde that they wold kepe holy day to the Lord Iehouah Wherein I will put you ouer to the learned treatises of the godly new wryters which do refute this distinction being brought of the papistes as a shift to proue that the Idolatrie which is forbidden in the olde Testament toucheth not them because they worship God by these things and the idolatrous Iewes and infidels worshipped nothing else nor loked at nothing else thē the bare things before which they fell down Which selfe same distinction you bring to proue that papistrie is not so detestable as the idolatrie of the Iewes It may be that certayne of the Gentiles worshipped by their images Iupiter and Iuno c. but you can not shew that the Israelites euer worshipped any other God then the true God so that their fault was only in that they worshipped him otherwise then he had appoynted And the Gentiles that worshipped many Gods worshipped one as the head and cheefe and the rest as small companions and as they termed them minorum gentium deos as the papistes doe God as the cheefe and the sainctes as other petie gods And here all men may see what a good proctor you be for the papistes bothe in lestning their faultes and abating their punishments and yet will not I saye that you are conspired with them or haue receiued your see of them But if you can shew where or in what one poynt those that you charge with confederacie haue layde so softe pillowes vnder their heades as these are they refuse not to be called confederate and conspired with the papistes To the next section in the. 40. page WHat should become of the people in the meane season whilest they learne their Catechisme and when they haue learned it they are no more fitte to be Ministers and to teach other then he that hath learned his Accidence is meete to set vp a schole And it can not be defended but it was a grosse ouer sight to enioyne ministers to learne a Catechisme It were much to compel them to read it And if a man would haue declamed agaynst the ignoraunce of the most part of the ministers three whole dayes together he could not haue sayde more against them then that Canon which sendeth them to their A. B. C. and principles of their religion How know you that they quote the Catechisme in the margent in derision is there any sillable or letter that soundeth that wayes if you coniecture it because they haue set it in the margent you may as well say that they likewise quote the scriptures in derision being also placed there But how followeth this it is meete that ministers shoulde learne euerye day therefore it is meete they be enioyned to learne Cathechismes it is meete they shoulde reade Cathechismes therefore meete to learne them and be enioyned to learne them is there nothing worthyer the learning and profession of the minister then to learne Cathechismes or dothe a manne learne those thinges alwayes which he readeth dothe he not reade thinges some tyme to record the things that he hath learned For because they say it is not meete that ministers should be enioyned to learne a Cathechisme you conclude of their wordes that they would not haue a minister to learne or to reade any thing which is as farre from their meaning or wordes eyther as you are from the reasonable and vpright expounding of them To the two next sections in the. 41. and. 42. page IT hath bene likewise shewed what was in that election extraordinarie and what pertayneth to the ordinarie callings And in the .vj. of the Actes it was shewed that if the Deacons shoulde not be thrust vppon the congregation agaynst the will of it muche lesse ought the minister And if that congregation had by the commaundement of the Apostles an interest in the choyse of their gouernoures I see not why the same commaundement remayneth not to be followed of other churches Your reasons wherewith you would make difference shal be after considered The Answere to the next section being the 43. page and vntill I adde which is in the 44. page VNto these places of the first and sixthe of the Actes is added first the place of the fourtenth of the Actes where the authors of the admonition do proue that the election ought not to be in one man hys hand but ought to be made by the churche agaynst which M. Doctor taketh three exceptions The first is for that it is sayde that Paule and Barnabas ordayned Elders whereby he would conclude that the congregations had nothing to doe But how siender a reason that is it may be considered of infinite
sette downe hys iudgement before needed not to haue repeated it here agayne But the Greeke wordes you say catakyrieuousin kai catexousiazousin doe signifie to rule wyth oppression and why may not I saye that thys preposition cata doth not signifie heere a peruersnesse of rule but an absolutenesse and a full power and iurisdiction as catamathein catalambanein is not to learne or to perceyue euilly and peruersly but to learne exactly and to perceiue throughly and perfectly but what neede we to followe coniectures in so playne a matter when as Saint Luke vseth the simple wordes without any composition of exousiazein Kai Kyrieuein doe you not perceyue that the preposition wherein you put so great confidēce deceiueth you besides the manifest vntruth you commit in saying that all three Euangelistes haue katexousiazousin katakyrieuousin Furthermore you say that our sauioure Christ sayeth not that no man shall be great amongst them but he that desireth to be great amongst them He had sayd so before when he had sayd it shall not be so amongst you and therefore needed not to repeate it and yet an other Euangelist sayeth not he that desireth to be great but let the greatest among you be as the least VVherby he doth not reprehend only the desire of being great but will not haue them to be one aboue an other To the last reason Last of all you conclude that our sauiour Christ in the 20. of Mathew reproueth the ambition of the sonnes of zebede and in the 22. of S. Luke all the rest of the Apostles I graunte you he dothe so and that coulde not be done better then in tellyng them that they desired things not meete for them and which woulde not stande with their calling And if as you say the ambition only was reprehended and the desire of rule to oppresse others wyth the answere you attribute to our sauioure is not so fitte For they myght haue replyed and sayde that he forbad tyrannicall rule and oppression of their inferioures but they desired that which was a moderate and well ruled gouernment And semeth it vnto you a probable thing that S. Luke meaneth tyrantes and oppressors when as he sayth they are called beneficiall or gracious Lordes men doe not vse to call oppressors liberall or bountifull Lordes Neyther is it to be thought of all the Apostles that they desired rule one ouer an other to the ende that they would vse crueltie or tyrannie or oppression one ouer an other for that were to doe them great iniurie Besides that it is sayde that the rest of the disciples disdayned at the two brethren whyche they would not haue done if they had had any purpose or mynde to haue oppressed them For then they would haue contemned them rather then haue disdayned them if they had broken out into suche grose faultes For Aristotle teacheth that nemesis which is the same that aganactesis is the verbe whereof the Euangelist vseth is agaynst those that are supposed of them that beare the disdayne to be lifted vp higher and into better estate then they are worthy of whych agreeth wyth that interpretation whyche I haue alleaged and can not agree wyth the other whych you set downe For who speaking properly would speake after thys sort The residue of the Apostles disdayned at the two brethren or thought them vnworthy that they should beare tyrannicall rule ouer them To the section that beginneth touching the place in 23. of Mathew and so vntill howe aptly Concerning the exposition and sence of that place I agree with you and suppose that it is quoted of the authors of the admonition rather to note the ambition of certayne which gape greedely at these byshopprickes which we haue to the ende they mighte be saluted by the name of Lordes and honoures then to proue that one minister should not haue dominion ouer an other And therefore although these places be agaynst no lawfull authoritie of any estate or condition of men yet as they are aptly alledged against the bishop of Rome the one against his estate and authoritie simply the other agaynst hys tyrannie and euill vsage of hym selfe in that authoritie so it may be aptly alleaged agaynst any other which shall fall into the like fault of the byshop of Rome The purenesse that we boast of is the innocencie of our sauioure Christ who shall couer all our vnpurenesse not impute it vnto vs And for so much as fayth * purifyeth the hart we doubt not but God of his goodnes hath begon our sanctification and hope that he will make an ende of it euen vntill the day of our Lord Iesus Albeit we holde dyuers poyntes more purely then they doe which impugne them yet I know none that by comparison hath eyther sayd or written that all those that thinke as we doe in those poyntes are more holy and more vnblameable in life then any of those that thinke otherwise If we say that in those poynts which we holde from them we thinke soundlier then they doe we are ready to proue it If we say also that we lyue not so offensiuely to the world commonly by getting so many lyuinges into our handes as would finde foure or fiue good learned able ministers all the worlde will beare vs witnes Other purenes we take not vpon vs And therefore as the name was first by the Papistes maliciously inuented so is it of you very vnbrotherly confirmed Whereas you say that they are Puritanes which suppose the church which they haue deuised to be without all impuritie if you meane without sinne you doe notably slaunder them and it is already answered If you meane that those are Puritanes or Catharans which do set forth a true and perfect patern or platforme of reforming the church then the marke of thys heresy reacheth vnto those which made the booke of common prayer which you say is a perfect and absolute rule to gouerne this church wherein nothing is wanting or too little nor nothing running ouer nor too much As for the Catharans which were the same that are otherwise called Nouatians I know no suche opynion they had they whome you charge are as farre from their corruption as you be An answere to that which is contayned in the. 20. 21. and 22. page vntill Now if eyther godly Councels YOu geue occasion of suspition that your end will be skarce good which haue made so euill a beginning For whereas you had gathered out of the Admonition that nothing should be placed in the Church but that God hath in hys word commaunded as though the wordes were not playne enough you wil geue them some light by your exposition And what is that you answere that it is as much as though they would say nothing is to be tollerated in the church of Christe touching eyther doctryne order ceremonies disciplyne or gouernment except it be expressed in the word of god Is thys to interprete is it all one to say nothing
You oppose Amb. Aug. I could oppose Ignatius and Tertullian wherof the one saith it is nefas a detestable thing to fast vpon the Lordes day the other the it is to kil the Lord this is the inconuenience that cometh of such vnlearned kinde of reasoning S. Ambrose sayth so therfore it is true And although Amb. and Aug. being straungers and priuate men at Rome wold haue so done yet it foloweth not that if they had ben citizens ministers there y they wold haue don it if they had don so to yet it foloweth not but they would haue spoken against the appoyntment of dayes nomothesian of fasting wherof Eusebius saith that Montanus was the first author I speake of that which they ought to haue done for otherwise I know they both thought corruptly of fasting whē as the one sayth it was remedy or reward to fast other dayes but in Lent not to fast was sinne and the other asketh what saluation we can obtaine if we blot not our sinnes by fasting seing that the scripture sayth the fasting almes doth deliuer from sin therfore calleth them new teachers that shut out the merite of fasting Which I therfore recite because you would seme by Aug. Ambrose iudgements to alow of the weekely and commanded fasts What you meane to cite this place ad Ianuarium 118. I can not tell you charge the authors of the admonition to be conspired with the papistes I will not charge you so but wil thinke better of you vntil the contrary do more appeare But I appeale to the iudgement of all men if this be not to bring in popery again to allow of s Aug. saying wherin he sayth that the celebrating of the day of the passion c. is either of some generall councel or of the Apostles commaūded decreed wherby a gate is opē vnto the papists to bring in vnder the coloure of traditions all their beggery whatsoeuer For you plainly confirme that there is some thing necessary to be obserued which is not contained any wayes in the scripture For to keepe those holy dayes is not contained in the scripture neither can be concluded of any part therof and yet they are necessary to be kept if they be commaunded of the Apostles Therefore in your opinion some thing is necessary to be kept which is not contained in the scriptures nor can not be concluded of them And if you say that S. Aug. leaueth it in dout whether it were the Apostles tradition statute or a generall councels then you bring vs yet to a worse point that we can not be assured of the which is necessary for vs to knowe that is whether the Apostles did ordaine that these dayes should be kept as holy dayes or the coūcels And that it is S. Augustins meaning to father such like things of the Apostles it maye appeare by that whych he wryteth saying There are many things whych the whole churche holdeth and therfore are well beleued to be commaunded of the Apostles although they be not founde wrytten If thys iudgement of s Augustine be a good iudgement and a sounde then there be some things commaunded of God which are not in the scriptures therfore there is no sufficient doctrine contained in the scriptures wherby we may be saued For al the commaundements of God of the apostles are nedeful for our saluation And marke I pray you whether your affections cary you before you sayd that the Lords day which was vsed for the day of rest in the Apostles time may be chaūged as the place and houre of prayer but the day of the passion resurrection c. you either thrust vpon vs as the decree of the apostles or at least put vpon vs a necessity of keping of them least haply in breaking of them we might breake the Apostles decree for you make it to lie betweene the councels and the apostles which of them decreed this And do you not perceiue how you stil reason against your self for if the church haue had so great regard to that which the apostles did in their times that they kept those things which are not wryttē and therfore are doutfull whether euer they vsed them or no how much more should we hold our selues to these things whych are wrytten that they did and of the whych we are assured As touching the obseruation of these holy dayes I will refer the reader vnto an other place where occasion is geuen againe to speake of them As for that rule y he geueth when he sayth whatsoeuer is not c. and for the last of the three rules I receiue them with hys owne interpretation whych he hath afterward in 119. epist. ad Ianuarium which is that it be also profitable And as for those three rules whych you saye are worthye to be noted I can see nothing that they helpe your cause one whit for I knowe no man that euer denyed but that the churche may in suche things as are not specified and precisely determined make orders so they be grounded of those generall rules whych I haue before alledged out of S. Paule And as for the second of the three rules I can not at any hand allow it For when all christianitie was ouer runne wyth Poperie thyngs were vniuersally obserued whych to kepe were mere wickednes and thys strengtheneth the papistes vniuersalitie Concerning your glose if it be not repugnant to the scripture besides that it is not enough because it must be grounded by the scripture and that it is wicked to geue such authority to any decree of men that a man should not enquire of it or reason of it I haue shewed that he ment nothing les For affirming that suche thyngs are the Apostles commaundements hys meaning was that they should be wythout all exception receiued and absolutely How much better is it that we take heede to the words of the Apostle then either to S. Augustins or yours whych sayth that if he or an angel from heauen should preach any other gospell then that whych he had preached that they should hold hym accursed he sayth not any contrary or repugnant doctrine but any other gospell But tel me why passed you by that in Augustin which he * wryteth to Iunuarie that those thyngs whych are not contained in the scripture nor decreed of coūcelles nor confirmed by generall customes but are varied by the manners of regions and of men vpon occasion offered ought to be cutte of although they seeme not to be against faith because they pres wyth seruile burdens the religion whych Christ would haue free Thys sentence belike was to hotte for you you coulde not cary it The rest whose names you recite whych you saye you leaue of for breuitie sake I leaue to the iudgement of the Reader to consider wherfore they be left out seeing that Augustin in whom you put so great trust answereth so little to your expectation
hand as fast as you builde with the other But to answere directly to the place of the fifthe of the first to Timothe I saye first that S. Paule wryteth to Timothe and therefore instructeth hym what he should do for his parte in the appoynting of the minister If he had written to the whole Churche of Ephesus he would lykewise haue instructed them how they should haue behaued thē selues in that businesse If one do wryte vnto hys frende that hath interest in any election to take heede that he chuse none but such as are meete shall any man conclude therupon that none hath to doe in that election but he to whom that letter is writtē Then I say further that S. Paule attributeth that vnto Timothe that was common to moe with hym because he being the director and moderator of the election is sayde to doe that whiche many doe which thing I haue proued by dyuers examples both out of the scripture and otherwise before And euen in this imposition of handes it is manifestly to be shewed For that where as S. Paule sayth in the 2. Epistle that Timothe was ordayned by the putting on of hys hands vppon hym in the first Epistle he sayth that he was ordayned by the putting on of the handes of the eldership So that that which he in one place taketh to him selfe alone in the other he communicateth with moe And that he dyd it not him selfe alone it may appeare by those wordes which folow and communicate not with other mens sinnes as if he should saye if other will ordeyne insuffycient ministers yet be not thou caryed away with their example And further that his authoritie was equall with other elders of that church and that he had no superioritie aboue his fellowes it may appeare for that he sayth lay thy hands rashly of none where if he had had authoritie ouer the rest he would rather haue sayd suffer none to lay his handes rashly Agayne it is a fault in you that you can not distinguishe or put difference betweene the election and imposition of handes Last of all I answere that although this might agree to Timothe alone as in deede it can not yet it followeth not that euery Bishop may do so For Timothe was an Euangelist which was aboue a Bishop as hereafter shall better appeare And it is an euill argument to say the greater may do it therfore the lesse may do it The superiour therfore the inferioure If you were at any cost with producing your witnesses you should not be so vnwise to be so lauishe of them as to cite Ambrose and Chrisostome to proue a thing that none hath euer denyed For who denyeth that S. Paule doth not geue warning to Timothe to be circumspect If you meane to vse their testimonie to proue that he only made the elections they saye neuer a word for you if there be any thing cite it To the place of Titus I answere as to that of Timothe for there is nothing there but agreeth also to thys place And as for Ierome he hath nothing in that place as he hath in no other to proue that to the Bishop only doth belong the right of election of the minister I haue shewed you reasons before why it cā not be so taken of the sole election of the Bishop the church being shutte out If authoritie woulde doe any good in thys behalfe as it seemeth it ought seeing that all your proofe throughe out the whole booke is in the authorities of men which Aristotle calleth atechnas peiseis vncunning proofes I coulde sende you to maister Calum which teacheth that it is not to be thought that S. Paule woulde permit to Titus to ordayne byshoppes and ministers by hys owne authoritie when he hym selfe would not take so much vpon hym but ioyned hys with the voyces of the church But he peraduenture sauoureth not your tast and yet you woulde make men beleue sometimes that you make muche of hym if you can gette but one worde vnioynted and racked in peeces from the rest to make good your part If hee weyghe not with you you haue maister Musculus whome you take to bee a great patrone of youres in thys cause which dothe with greater vehemencie affirme the same thing that mayster Caluin sayth asking whether any man can beleeue that Paisle permitted in thys place to Titus or in the place before alledged to Timothe that they shoulde ordayne of theyr owne authoritie and by them selues when as Paule woulde not doe it but by the voyces and election of the churche In the ende you say it is the generall consent of all the learned fathers that it belongeth to the byshop to chuse the minister Because you acquaint my eares with such bolde and vntrue affirmations I can now the more paciently heare you thus vaunting your selfe as though you had all the fathers by heart and caryed them about with you wheresoeuer you went whereas if a man woulde measure you by the skill in them which you haue shewed heere he woulde hardly beleeue that you had redde the tenthe part of them Are all the learned fathers of that mynde I thinke then you would haue bene better aduised then to haue sette downe but one when as you know a matter in controuersie will not be tryed but by two or three witnesses vnlesse the Lord speake hym selfe and therefore you geue me occasion to suspect that because you cite but one you know of no more now let vs see what your one witnesse will depose in thys matter And fyrst of all you haue done more wisely then simply in that you haue altered Ieromes wordes For where hee sayeth wherein doth a byshoppe differ from an elder but only in ordayning you say a byshop doth excell all other mynisters c. I report me heere vnto your conscience whether you dyd not of purpose chaunge Ieromes hys sentēce because you wold not let the reader vnderstand what oddes is betweene S. Ieromes bishops in his dayes betwene our Lord Bishoppes For then the byshop had nothing aboue an elder or other minister but only the ordayning of the minister Now he hath a thousande parishes where the minister hath but one For the matters also of the substaunce of the ministerie the bishop now excommunicateth which the minister can not absolueth or receyueth into the church which the minister can not Besides diuers other things which are meere ciuill which the byshop doth and which neither byshop nor other minister ought to doe I say I reporte me to your conscience whether you altered Ieromes wordes to thys ende that you would keepe thys from the knowledge of your reader or no. For answere to the place it is an euill argument to saye the byshop had the ordayning of the minister Ergo he had the election of hym the contrary rather is a good argument the byshop had the ordayning of the minister therefore he had not the election of hym For ordination
amendement And that this was the custome of the churches it may appeare by the. 9. of those canons whych are fathered of the apostles wher it is decreed that all the faithfull that entred into the congregation and heard the scriptures red and dyd not tary out the prayers the holy Communion should be as those whych were causers of disorders in the church seperated from the church or as it is translated of an other depriued of the Communion Also in the councell of Braccara it was decreed that if any entring into the church of God heard the Scriptures and afterward of wantonnes or losenes wythdrewe hym selfe from the communion of the sacrament and so brake the rule of discipline in the reuerende sacraments should be put out of the church till such time as he had by good frutes declared hys repentaunce But heere also may rise an other doubt of the former wordes of Moses in the boke of Numbers for seing that he maketh thys exception if they be cleane it may be sayd that those that depart do not fele themselues mete to receiue and therfore depart the other .iij. or .iiij. or moe feele themselues meete and disposed for that purpose whervpon it may seeme that it is neither reason to compell those to come which feele not themselues meete nor to reiect them that feele that good disposition and preparation in themselues For answer whervnto we must vnderstand that the vncleannes whych Moyses speaketh of was such as men could not easely auoid and whervnto they might fall sometimes by necessary duety as by handling their dead whych they were by the rule of charitye bound to burye sometimes by touching at vnwares a deade body or by sitting in the place where some vncleane body had sitten or by touching such things whych the law iudged vncleane which thing cannot be alleaged in those that are now of the church For as many as be of it and wythall of suche discretion as are able to proue and examine themselues can haue no excuse at all if they may be at the church to withdraw themselues from the holy supper of the lord For if they will say that they be not meete it may be answered vnto them that it is their owne fault and further if they be not meete to receiue the holy sacrament of the supper they are not meete to heare the woord of God they are not meete to be partakers of the prayers of the church and if they be for one they are also for the other For with that boldnes and wyth that duetye or lawfulnes I speake of those whych are of the church and of discretion to examine themselues I say wyth what lawfulnes they may offer themselues to the prayers and to the hearing of the word of God they may also offer themselues vnto the Lordes supper And to whomsoeuer of thē the Lord wil communicate himselfe by preaching the word vnto the same he wil not refuse to communicate himselfe by receiuing of the sacramēts For whosoeuer is of Gods housholde and familye he neede not be afraide to come to the Lords table nor dout but that the Lord will fede him there and whatsoeuer he be that is a membre of the body of Christ may be assured that he receiueth life frō Christ the head as well by the arteries condints of the supper of the Lord as by the preaching of the word of god So that it must needes folow that the not receiuing of those whych depart out of the church whē there is any communion celebrated procedeth either of vaine and superstitious feare growing of grose ignorance of themselues and of the holy sacraments or else of an intollerable negligence or rather contempt of the whych neither the one nor the other shuld be either borne wyth or nourished either by permitting .iij. or .iiij. to communicate alone or els in letting them whych depart go so easely away with so great a fault whych ought to be seuerely punished And vpon thys either contempt or superstitious feare drawne from the papists Lenton preparation of 40. dayes eareshrift displing c. it commeth to pas that men receyuing the supper of the Lord but seldome when they fall sicke must haue the supper ministred vnto them in their houses whych otherwise being once euery weke receiued before should not brede any such vnquietnes in thē when they can not come to receiue it Although as I haue before shewed if they had neuer receiued it before yet that priuate receiuing were not at any hand to be suffered And thus hauing declared what I thinke to be faulty in the communion boke in thys poynt and the reasons why and wyth all answeared to that whych eyther M. doctor alleageth in thys place of the. 80. and. 81. and likewise in the. 152. 185. pages touching thys matter I come now vnto that whych is called the Iewishe purifying by the admonition and by the seruice boke afore time the purification of women Now to the churching of women in the which title yet kept there seemeth to be hid a great part of the Iewish purification For lyke as in the old law shee that had brought forthe a childe was holden vncleane vntill suche time as shee came to the temple to shew her selfe after shee had brought forthe a man or a woman so thys terme of churching of her canseme to import nothing els thē a banishment as it were a certen excommunication from the church during the space that is betwene the time of her deliuery of her comming vnto y church For what doth els thys churching implie but a restoring her vnto y church whych cā not be without some bar or shutting forth presupposed It is also called the thanks giuing but the principall title whych is the directory of this part of the Liturgie placed in the top of the leafe as the whych the translator best liked of is churching of women To pas by the that it wil haue thē come as nigh the communion table as may be as they came before to y high altare because I had spoken once generally against such ceremonies y of all other is most Iewish approcheth nerest vnto the Iewish purification y she is commaūded to offer accustomed offrings Wherin besides that the very word offring caryeth with it a strong sent suspitiō of a sacrifice especially being vttered simply without any addition it can not be without danger that the boke maketh the custome of the popish church whych was so corrupt to be the rule measure of this offring And although the meaning of the boke is not the it shuld be any offring for sin yet this manner of speaking may be a stūbling stock in the way of y ignorant simple the wicked obstinate therby are confirmed hardned in their corruptions The best which can be answered in this case is the it is for the relief of the minister but thē it shuld be
remeÌ„bred first that the minister liueth not any more of offerings Secondarily that the paiment of the ministers wages is not so conuenient either in the church or before all the people And thirdly y therby we fal into y fault whych we condemne in popery that is y besides the ordinary liuing apoynted for the seruice of the priests in the whoâ—e they toke for their seueral seruices of masse baptisme burying churching c. seueral rewards which thing being of the seruice boke wel abolished in certain other things I caÌ„not see what good cause there shuld be to retain it in this and certain other Now wheras m. D. saith that the place of the. 15. of the Acts alledged by the admonition maketh nothing against this he shuld haue considered that if it be a Iewish ceremony as they suppose it it is to be abolished vtterly For it being shewed there the all the ceremonial law of Moses is don away through our sauior Christ this also a part thereof must nedes be therin comprised And whereas he saith that it being nothing els but a thanks geuing for her deliuerance can not be therfore but christian very godly I answer the if there shuld be solemne and expres geuing of thanks in the church for euery benefit eyther equal or greater theÌ„ thys whych any singular person in the church dothe receiue we should not only haue no preaching of the word nor ministring of the sacrameÌ„ts but we shuld not haue so much leysure as to do any corporal or bodily worke but shuld be like vnto those heretikes which wer called of the Syriake word Messalians or continual prayers whych did nothing els but pray For the Psalme 121. spoken of in the 155. page it being shewed that it is not meete to haue any such solemne thankes geuing it is needeles to debate of the Psalme wherewyth the thankes geuing shuld be made And wheras in 101. and. 102. pages vnto the admonition obiecting that the comming in the vaile to the church more then theÌ„ at other times is a token of shame or some folly committed M. D. iestingly leaueth the matter to the womeÌ„s answer A little true knowledge of diuinity would haue taught him that the bringing in or vsurping wythout authority any ceremony in the congregation is bothe an earnester matter then may be iested at and a waightier then shoulde be permitted vnto the discretion of euery woman considering that the same hath bene so horribly abused in time of poperye The holy dayes folow of whych M. Doctor sayth that so they be not vsed superstitiously or vnprofitably they may be commauÌ„ded I haue shewed before that they were If they were so indifferent as they are made yet being kept of the papistes whych are the enemies of God they ought to be abolished And if it were as easy a matter to pull oute the superstition of the obseruing of those holydayes out of mennes heartes as it is to protest and to teache that they are not commaunded for any religion to be put in them or for any to make conscience of the obseruing of them as thoughe there weresome necessary worshyp of God in the keping of them then were they much more tollerable But when as the continuance of them doth norishe wicked superstition in the mindes of men and that the doctrine whych shuld remedy the superstition through the fewnes skarcitye of able ministers can not come to the most part of them whych are infected wyth this disease and that also where it is preached the frute therof is in part hindred whylest the common people attend oftentymes rather to that whych is done theÌ„ to that whych is taught being a thyng indifferent as it is sayd it ought to be abolyshed as that whych is not only not fittest to holde the people in the sincere worshypping of God but also as that whych keepeth them in their former blindnes and corrupt opinions whych they haue conceyued of such holy dayes And if they had bene neuer abused neyther by the Papistes nor by the Iewes as they haue bene and are daily yet suche making of holy dayes is neuer wythout some great daunger of brynging in some euill and corrupt opinions into the mindes of men I will vse an example in one and that the chefe of holy dayes most generally of longest time obserued in the church whych is the feast of Easter whych was kept of some more dayes of some fewer How many thousands are there I will not say of the ignorant papistes but of those also whych professe the gospell whych when they haue celebrated those dayes with dilygent heede taken vnto their life and wyth some earnest deuotion in praying and hearing the word of God do not by and by thinke that they haue well celebrated the feast of Easter and yet haue they thus notably deceiued them selues For S. Paul teacheth that the celebrating of the feast of the christians Easter is not as the Iewes Easter was for certen dayes but sheweth that we must keepe thys feast all the dayes of oure life in the vnleauened bread of sincerity and of truth By whych we see that the obseruing of the feast of Easter for certain dayes in the yeare doth pul out of our mindes or euer we be aware the doctrine of the gospell and causeth vs to rest in that neare consideration of our dueties for the space of a few dayes which should be extended to alour life But besides the incommodities that rise of making such holy dayes and coÌ„tinuing of those whych are so horribly abused where it is confessed that they are not necessary besides this I say the matter is not so indifferent as it is made I confes that it is in the power of the churche to appoynt so many dayes in the weeke or in the yeare in the whych the congregation shal assemble to heare the word of God and receiue the sacraments and offer vp prayers vnto God as it shall thinke good according to those rules whych are before alleaged But y it hath power to make so many holy dayes as we haue wherin no man may worke any parte of the day and wherin men are commaunded to cease from their daily vocations of plowing and exercising their handy crafts c. that I deny to be in the power of the church For proufe wherof I will take the fourth commaundement and no other interpretation of it then M. doctor alloweth of in the. 174. page whych is that God licenseth and leaueth it at the liberty of euery man to worke sixe dayes in the weeke so that he rest the seuenth daye Seeing that therefore that the Lord hath left it to all men at libertye that they myght labor if they thinke good sixe dayes I say the church nor no man can take thys liberty away from them and driue them to a necessary rest of the body And if it be lawfull to abridge the liberty of the church in
thys poynt and in stead that the Lord sayth sixe dayes thou mayst labor if thou wilt to say thou shalt not labor sixe dayes I do not see why the church may not as well wheras the Lord sayth thou shalt rest the seuenth day commaunde that thou shalt not rest the seuenth day For if the church may restraine the liberty that God hath geuen thē it may take away the yoke also that God hath put vpon them And whereas you say in the. 173. page that notwithstanding thys fourthe commaundement the Iewes had certaine other feastes whych they obserued in deede the Lord whych gaue thys generall law might make as many exceptions as he thought good and so long as he thought good But it foloweth not because the Lord did it that therfore the church may do it vnles it hath commaundemēt and authority from God so to do As when there is any generall plague or iudgement of God either vpon the churche or comming towardes it the Lorde commaundeth in suche a case that they should sanctifie a generall fast and proclaime ghnatsarah whych signifieth a prohibition or forbidding of ordinary works and is the same Hebrewe word wherwyth those feastes dayes are noted in the lawe wherin they shuld rest The reason of whych commaūdement of the Lord was that as they abstained that day as much as might be conueniently from meat so they might abstaine from their daily workes to the ende they might bestowe the whole day in hearing the word of God and humbling themselues in the congregation confessing their faultes and desiring the Lorde to turne away from hys fearce wrathe In thys case the churche hauing commaundement to make a holy day may and ought to do it as the church which was in Babilon did during the time of their captiuity but where it is destitute of a commaundement it may not presume by any decree to restraine that liberty whych the Lord hath geuen Nowe that I haue spoken generally of holy dayes I come vnto the apostles and other saints dayes whych are kept wyth vs And thoughe it were lawfull for the church to ordaine holy dayes to our sauioure Christe or to the blessed Trinity yet it is not therfore lawfull to institute holy dayes to the apostles and other saintes or to their remembrance For although I confes as muche as you say in the. 153. page that the church of England doth not meane by thys keping of holy dayes that the saintes shoulde be honoured or as you alledge in the. 175. and. 176. pages that wyth vs the saints are not prayed vnto or that it doth propoūd them as meritorious yet that is not enough For as we reason against the popish purgatorie that it is therfore naught for as much as neyther in the olde Testament nor in the newe there is any mention of prayer at any time for the dead so may it be reasoned against these holy dayes ordained for the remēbrance of the saintes that for so much as the old people dyd neuer keepe any feast or holy day for the remembrance eyther of Moses or Daniel or Iob or Abraham or Dauid or any other how holy or excellent so euer they were nor the apostles nor the churches in their time neuer instituted any eyther to kepe the remembrance of Stephen or of the virgin Mary or of Iohn Baptist or of any other notable and rare personage that the instituting and erecting of them nowe and thys attempt by the churches whych folowed whych haue not such certen and vndoubted interpreaters of the will of God as the prophets and apostles were whych lyued in those churches is not wythout some note of presumption for that it vndertaketh those thyngs whych the primitiue churche in the apostles times hauing greater giftes of the spirite of God then they that folowed them had durste not venter vpon Moreouer I haue shewed before what force the name of euery thyng hath to cause men to thynke so of euery thyng as it is named and therfore although you say in the. 175. page that in calling these holy dayes the dayes of suche or such a Sainte there is nothyng else meante but that the Scriptures whych are that day red concerne that saynte and contayne eyther hys callyng preachyng persecution martyrdom c. yet euery one doth not vnderstand so much For besides that the corrupt custome of popery hath caryed theyr mindes to an other interpretation the very name and appellation of the day teacheth otherwise For seing that the dayes dedicated to the Trinity and those that are consecrate to our sauior Christ are in that they be called Trinity day or the Natiuity day of our sauior Christ by and by taken to be instituted to the honor of our sauyor Christe and of the Trinity so lykewyse the people when it is called S. Paules day or the blessed virgin Maryes day can vnderstand nothing therby but that they are instituted to the honor of S. Paule or of the virgin Mary vnles they be otherwyse taught And if you say let them so be taught I haue answeared that the teaching in thys lande can not by any order whych is yet taken come to the moste parte of those whych haue drunke thys poyson and where it is taught it were good that the names were abolyshed that they should not helpe to vnteach that whych the preaching teacheth in thys behalfe Furthermore seeing the holy dayes be ceremonies of the church I see not why we may not heere renue Augustines complaint that the estate of the Iewes was more tollerable then oures is I speake in thys poynt of holy dayes for if their holy dayes and oures be accompted we shall be foūd to haue more then double as many holy dayes as they had And as for all the commodityes whych we receiue by them whereby M. doctor goeth about to proue the goodnes and lawfulnes of their institution as that the scriptures are there red and expounded the patience of those saintes in their persecution and Martyrdome is to the edifying of the church remembred and yearely renewed I say that we myght haue all those commodities wythout all those dangers whych I haue spoken of wythout any keping of yearely memory of those sayntes and as it falleth out in better and more profitable sorte For as I sayd before of the keping of Easter that it tyeth and as it were fettereth a meditation of the Easter to a fewe dayes whych should reache to all our age and time of oure lyfe so those celebrations of the memories of saintes and martyrs streighten our consideration of them vnto those dayes whych should continually be thought of daily as long as we liue And if that it be thoughte so good and profitable a thyng that thys remembrance of them should be vpon those dayes wherin they are supposed to haue dyed yet it foloweth not therefore that after thys remembrance is celebrated by hearing the scriptures concerning them and prayers made to folowe their
constancy that all the rest of the day should be kept holy in such sorte as men should be debarred of their bodely labors and of exercising their daily vocations Nowe where as maister Doctor citeth Augustine and Ierome to proue that in the Churches in their times there were holy dayes kepte besydes the Lordes day he myght haue also cited Ignatius and Tertullian and Cyprian whych are of greater auncienty and would haue made more for the credit of hys cause seeing he measureth all hys truthe almoste throughe the whole booke by the croked measure and yarde of time For it is not to be denyed but thys keeping of holy dayes especially of the Easter and Pentecost are very auncient and that these holy dayes for the remembrance of Martyrs were vsed of long time But these abuses were no auncienter then other were groser also then thys was as I haue before declared and were easy further to be shewed if nede required And therefore I appeale from these examples to the scriptures and to the examples of the perfectest church that euer was whych was that in the apostles times And yet also I haue to say that the obseruation of those feastes first of all was much better then of later times For Socrates confessing that neyther our sauioure Christ nor the apostles dyd decree or institute any holy dayes or lay any yoke of bondage vppon the neckes of those whych came to the preaching addeth further that they did vse first to obserue the holy dayes by custom and that as euery man was disposed at home Whych thing if it had remained in that freedome that it was done by custome and not by commaundement at the will of euery one and not by constraint it had bene much better then it is nowe and had not drawne suche daungers vpon the posteritye as did after ensue and we haue the experience of As touching M. Bucers M. Bullingers Illiricus allowance of them if they meane such a celebration of them as that in those dayes the people may be assembled and those partes of the scriptures which concerne them whose remembrance is solemnised red and expounded and yet men not debarred after from their daily works it is so much the les matter if otherwise that good leaue they giue the churches to dissent from them in that poynt I do take it graunted vnto me being by the grace of God one of the churche Althoughe as touching M. Bullenger it is to be obserued since the time that he wrote that vppon the Romaines there are about .xxxv. yeares sythens whych time although he holde still that the feastes dedicated vnto the Lord as of the Natiuity Easter and Pentecost may be kept yet he denyeth flatly that it is lawfull to keepe holy the dayes of the apostles as it appeareth in the confession of the Tigurine church ioyned wyth others As for M. Caluine as the practise of hym and the church where he lyued was and is to admit no one holy day besides the Lords day so can it not be shewed out of any parte of hys workes as I thynke that he approued those holy dayes whych are nowe in question He sayeth in deede in hys Institution that he wil not condemne those churches whych vse them No more do we the church of Englande neyther in thys nor in other things whych are meere to be reformed For it is one thing to mislike another thyng to cōdemne and it is one thing to condemne some thing in the church and an other thing to condemn the church for it And as for the places cited out of the epistles to the Galathians and Collossians there is no mention of any holy dayes eyther to saintes or to any other And it appeareth also that he defendeth not other churches but the church of Geneua and answeareth not to those whych obiect against the keping of saintes dayes or any holy dayes as they are called besides the Lords day but against those whych would not haue the Lords day kept still as a day of rest from bodely labor as it may appeare both by hys place vpon the Collossians and especially in that whych is alleaged out of hys Institutions And that he meaneth nothing les then suche holy dayes as you take vpon you to defende it may appeare first in the place of the Colossians where he sayeth that the dayes of rest whych are vsed of them are vsed for pollicy sake Nowe it is well knowne that as it is pollicy and a way to preserue the estate of things and to keepe thē in a good continuance and succes that as well the beastes as the men whych labor sixe dayes should rest the seuenth so it tendeth to no pollicy nor wealth of the people or preseruation of good order that there should be so many dayes wherin men should cease from worke being a thyng whych breedeth idlenesse and consequently pouerty besides other disorders and vices whych alwayes goe in company wyth idlenes And in the place of hys Institutions he declareth hym selfe yet more plainly when he sayeth that those odde holy dayes then are wythout superstition when they be ordained only for the obseruing of discipline and order Whereby he geueth to vnderstand that he would haue them no further holy dayes then for the time whych is bestowed in the exercise of the discipline and order of the churche and that for the rest they shoulde be altogither as other dayes free to be laboured in And so it appeareth that the holy dayes ascribed to Saintes by the seruice booke is a iust cause why a man can not safely without exception subscribe vnto the seruice Nowe wheras maister Doctor sayeth it maketh no matter whether these things be taken out of the Portuis so they be good c. I haue proued first they are not good then if they were yet being not necessary abused horribly by the papistes other being as good and better then they ought not to remaine in the church And as for Ambrose saying all truthe of whome so euer it be sayde is of the holy ghoste it I were disposed to moue questions I coulde demaund of him whych careth not of whome he haue the truthe so he haue it what our sauioure Christe meant to refuse the testimony of Deuils when they gaue a cleare testimony that he was the sonne of God and the holy one and what S. Paule ment to be angry and to take it so greuously that the Pithonisse sayd he and his companion were the seruaunts of the high God whych preached vnto them the way of saluation Heere was truthe and yet reiected and I would knowe whether maister Doctor would say that these spake by the spirite of god Thus whilest wythout all iudgement he snatcheth heere a sentence and there another out of the Doctors and that of the worste as if a man should of purpose chuse oute the drosse and leaue the siluer wythin a while he wil make no great difference not
if kneeling be so void of all fault as M. Doctor wold make vs beleue howe came it to passe that in King Edwardes dayes there was a protestation added in the boke of prayer to cleare that gesture from adoration An other reason why kneeling should be taken away is for that sitting agreeth better wyth the action of the supper whervnto M. Doctor taketh exception bothe in thys place and where he speaketh againe of it that for so much as thys sacrament is a sacrament of thankes geuing and thankes geuing a prayer therfore kneeling to be most fit as that whych we vse ordinarily when we pray But he shuld haue remembred that that thanks geuing may wel come after we haue receyued the sacrament and that whilest we receyue the bread and wine of the sacramēt we are not then most fit to speake they being in our mouths and during the time we receyue them our minde is occupied in consydering the inestimable benefite whych the Lorde hathe bestowed vpon vs and to meditate of the frute whych we receiue thereby by the Analogie and comparison betwene the bodely nourishment and the spirituall that by these considerations our minds may be more enflamed and sette on fire and our mouthes may be filled wyth the praise of God after we haue receyued And further if thys be a good reason that therefore it is meete we shoulde kneele at the supper for as muche as we geue thanks then it foloweth that when so euer we haue supped or dined it is meete that we should kneele when as yet we do say grace sitting And by thys he accuseth our sauioure Christe and hys Apostles as those whych did not vse the whych was most fitte for in hys iudgement he sayeth kneeling is the fittest site or position of the body which can be and if our sauioure Christ had bene of that iudgement vndoubtedly he wold haue also kneeled and caused hys Apostles so to do In the. 181. page vnto the admonition saying that sitting is most fitte because it betokeneth rest and accomplishment of the ceremonies in our sauioure Christe M. doctor sayth it is a papisticall reason and triumpheth ouer the authors of the admonition because they allegory when as notwythstanding the surplice before crossing and rings c. afterwards are defended by nothing but wyth vain allegories whych haue nothing so good groūds as thys hath But let it be that thys is not so sound a reason as in deede for my part I wil not defend it and the authors them selues haue corrected it yet M. doctor might haue dealt easlier with all then to callit a papisticall reason which is far from popery and the reason of two notable learned zealous men Iohannes Alasco and of M. Hooper in hys commentary vpon the Prophet Ionas For the rest whych he hath heere or in the. 180. and. 181. page it is either answered before as that the danger of adoration may be taken away or hath no matter worthy the answearing I only admonish the reader that sitting at the communion is not holdē to be necessary but only that I thinke that kneling is very dāgerous for the causes before aledged Vnto the .iij. next sections contained in the .100 and .101 page I haue spoken already when as I shewed the generall faultes of the seruice boke only that is to be noted that M. doctor stil priuely pincheth or euer he be aware at our sauior Christes action in the first of these sections when as he commendeth rather thys forme of speaking take thou then that whych our sauior Christ vsed in saying take yee And if it be a good argument to proue that therfore we must rather say take thou then take yee because the sacrament is an application of the benefites of Christ then for as much as preaching is the applying of the benefites of Christ it behoueth that the preacher should direct hys admonitions particularly one after an other vnto all those whych heare hys sermon whych is a thyng absurde And therefore besides that it is good to leaue the popish forme in those thyngs whych we may so conueniently do it is best to come as neare y maner of celebration of the supper whych our sauyor Christ vsed as may be To the next section contained in the. 102. page When as many receiue they know not what some other wythout any examination eyther of them selues or by others how they come wyth what faith in Christ wyth what loue towardes their brethren I see not against what rule of our sauioure Christe it is or what rashe iudgement to say that they come rather of custome then of conscience when neyther they speake generally of all nor singularly of any one particulare person To the next section contained in the. 102. and a peece of the. 103. page IF the place of the. 5. to the Corinths do forbid that we should haue any familiarity wyth notorious offenders it doth much more forbid that they should be receyued to the communion And therfore papists being such as which are notoriously knowne to hold hereticall opinions ought not to be admitted much les compelled to the supper For seeing that our sauioure Christe did institute hys supper amongst hys disciples and those only whych were as S. Paule speaketh wythin it is euident that the papistes being wythout and foreiners and straungers from the church of God ought not to be receiued if they woulde offer them selues and that minister that shall geue the supper of the Lord to hym whych is knowne to be a papist and whych hath neuer made any cleare renouncing of popery with which he hath ben defiled doth prophane the table of the Lord doth geue the meat that is prepared for the children to dogges and he bryngeth into the pasture whych is prouided for the sheepe swine and vncleane beasts contrary to the faith and trust that ought to be in a stewarde of the Lordes house as he is For albeit that I doubt not but many of those whych are now papists pertaine to the election of God whych God also in hys good time will call to the knowledge of hys truthe yet notwythstanding they ought to be vnto the minister and vnto the church touching the ministring of the sacramentes as straungers and as vncleane beastes And as for the papists howsoeuer they receiue it whether as their popish breaden God as some doe or as common and ordinary bread as other some do or as a thing they know not what as some other they do nothing els but eat and drinke their owne condemnation the waight wherof they shall one day assuredly feele vnles they do repeat them of such horrible prophaning of the Lords most holy mysteries And if thys be to gratify the papists to shewe that they ought not to be compelled to receiue the supper of the Lorde as long as they continue in their popery I am well content to shewe them thys pleasure so that bothe they and you forget not
appoynted and to punish those which fayle in their office accordingly As for the making of the orders cerimonyes of the church they doe where there is a constituted and ordered church pertayne vnto the mynisters of the church and to the ecclesiastycall gouernoures and that as they meddle not with the making of cyuill lawes and lawes for the common wealth so the cyuill magistrate hath not to ordayne cerimonies pertayning to the churche But if those to whome that doth appertayne make any orders not meete the magistrate may and ought to hynder them and dryue them to better for so much as the ciuill magistrate hath thys charge to see that nothing be done agaynst the glory of God in hys domynion Thys distinction if M. Doctor knoweth not nor hath not heard of let him looke in the. 2. booke of the Chronicles he shall see that there were a number appoynted for the matters of the Lord which were priestes and leuites and there were other also appoynted for the Kinges affaires and for matters of the common wealth amongst which were the Leuites which being more in number then coulde be applyed to the vse of the churche were set ouer cyuill causes being therefore most fit for that they were best learned in the lawes of God which were the politicke lawes of that countrey There he may learne if it please hym that the making of orders and geuing of iudgementes in cyuill and Ecclesiasticall in common wealth and church matters pertayned vnto dyuers persons which distinction the wryter to the Hebrewes doth note when he sayeth that the Priest was ordayned in things pertayning to God. Thys might Maister Doctor haue learned by that whiche the noble emperor * Constantine attributeth to the fathers of the Nicene councell and to the Ecclesiasticall persons there gathered which he doth also permit the Byshops Elders and Deacans of churches to doe eyther by correcting or adding or making new if neede be And by the contynuall practise of the church in the tyme of christian Emperors which alwayes permitted vnto the mynisters assembled in councelles as well the determynation of controuersies which rose as the making or the abolyshing of needefull or hurtfull cerimonies as the case required Also by the Emperoures epistle in the first action of the councell of Constantinople where by the epistle of the Emperor it appeareth that it was the manner of the Emperoures to confirme the ordinaunces which were made by the mynisters and to see them kept The practise of thys he myght haue also most playnly seene in Ambrose who wold by no meanes suffer that the causes of the churches should be debated in the Princes consistory or court but would haue them handled in the church by those that had the gouernment of the church and therefore excuseth hym selfe to the emperour Valentinian for that being conuented to answere of the church matters vnto the ciuill court he came not And by whome can the matters and orders of the church bee better ordayned then by the mynisters of the church And if that be a good reason of Maister Doctor in the fortie and seuenth page that the Byshoppes ought therefore to ordayne mynisters because they are best hable to iudge of the learning and habylitie of those which are the fyttest it is also as good reason that therefore the mynisters and gouernours of the church should appoynt and decree of such ceremonyes and orders as pertayne to the church for because it is to be supposed that they can best iudge of those matters bestowing theyr studyes that wayes and further best vnderstanding the estate of the church about the which they are wholy occupyed And this is not Maister Doctor to shake handes with the papistes For the papistes would exempt their priestes from the subiection and from the punyshment of the cyuill magistrate which we doe not And the papistes would that whatsoeuer the cleargy doth determyne that that forthwith should be holden for good and the Prince should be forthwith compelled to mayntayne and set forth that bee it good or euill without further inquiry but wee say that if there bee no lawfull mynistery to set good orders as in rumous decayes and ouerthrowes of relygion that then the Prince ought to doe it and if when there is a lawfull mynistery it shall agree of any vnlawfull or vnmeete order that the Prince ought to stay that order and not to suffer it but to driue them to that which is lawfull and meete And if thys be to shake handes with the papistes then Maister Doctor is to blame which hath taught vs once or twise before that the appoynting of ceremonies of the church belongeth vnto the church And yet I know that there is one or two of the later wryters that thinke otherwise but as I take no aduauntage of their authoritie which thinke as I doe so I ought not to be preiudiced by those that thinke otherwise But for so much as we haue M. Doctor yet of thys iudgement that the church ceremonies shoulde bee ordayned by the church I will trauaile no further in thys matter consydering that the practise of thys church commonly is to referre these matters vnto the ecclesiasticall persons only thys is the difference that where it is done now of one or a few wee desire that it may be done by others also who haue interest in that behalfe The other poynt is in the hundreth thirty and eyght page where hee most vntruely and slaunderously chargeth the authors of the Admonition and maketh wonderfull outcryes of them as though they should deny that there hadde beene any reformation at all sythens the tyme that the Queenes maiestye began to raigne manyfestly contrary not onely to theyr meaning but also to theyr very words which appeareth in that they moue to a thorough reformation to contende or to labour to perfection denying only that the reformation which hath bene made in her maiesties dayes is thorough and perfect We confesse willingly that next vnto the Lorde God euery one of vs is most deepely bounde vnto her maiesty whome he hath vsed as an excellent instrument to delyuer his church heere out of the spirituall Egipt of popery and the common wealth also and the whole lande out of the slauery and subiection of straungers whereunto it was so neare Thys I say we willingly confesse before men and do in our prayers dayly geue most humble thankes to God therefore And by thys humble sute and earnest desire whiche wee haue for further reformation we are so far from vnthankfulnes vnto her maiesty that we thereby desire the heape of her felicitie the establishment of her royal throne amongst vs which then shall be most sure and vnremoued when our sauiour Christ sytteth wholy and fully not only in hys chayre to teach but also in hys throne to rule not alone in the heartes of euery one by hys spirite but also generally and in the visible gouernment of hys church by
to be dennes of loyterors and idle persones whylest there are nouryshed there some whych serue for no profitable vse in the church their offyces being suche as bryng no commoditye but rather hurte of whych numbre certen are whych the Admonition speaketh of in the. 224. page some other which hauing charges in other places vnder the coloure of their prebendes there absent them selues from them and that whych they spoyle and rauen in other places there they spend and make good cheare wyth and therfore not wythout good cause called dennes Finally there being nothyng there whych might not be much better applied and to the greater commodity of the churche whylest they myght be turned into colledges where yong men myght be brought vp in good learning made fitte for the seruice of the church and common wealthe the vniuersities being not able to receyue that numbre of scholers wherwyth their neede may be supplyed And where M. Doctor sayth that that whych is spoken of the Queenes maiestyes chappell is worthy rather to be punyshed then confuted if so be that these be abuses the example of them in her maiesties chappell can not be but most daungerous whych wyth all humble submission and reuerence I beseeche her maiesty duely to consider And as for the reasons which M. doctor bringeth to establishe them in the 225. page as that they are necessary whych he doth barely say and that s Aug. alloweth of a Deane and that the authors of the Admonition are instruments of those whych desire the spoile of them and that a man may as well speake against vniuersities colledges as against them I haue answeared before sauing that it is to be feared that colledges in vniuersities if M. doctor may worke y which he goeth about wil shortly be in little better case then those cathedral churches whych not only by hys own example but wyth might and maine and al endeuor possyble goeth about to fill and fraught them wyth Non residences and suche as haue charges of churches in other places whych do no good in the vniuersitye and partly are such as can do none only are pernicious examples of riotous feasting and making greate cheare wyth the prayes and spoyles whych they bryng out of the country to the great hurt of the vniuersity presently and vtter ruine of it hereafter onles spedy remedy be therfore prouided And wher he sayth it is not material although these deanes vicedeanes canons peticanōs prebēdaries c. come from the pope it is as if he shoulde saye that it skilleth not although they come out of the bottomles pit For whatsoeuer commeth from the Pope which is Antichrist commeth first from the deuill and where he addeth thys condition if it be good c. in deede if of the egges of a cockatrice can be made holesome meate to feede with or of a spiders webbe any cloth to couer with all then also may the things that come from the Pope and the Deuill be good profitable and necessary vnto the church And where he sayeth that collegiate churches are of great auncientie he proueth not the auncientie of the cathedrall churches onles he proue that cathedrall and collegiate be all one But I will not sticke wyth hym for so small a matter if our controuersy were of the names of these churches and not of the matter I could be content to graunt hys cause in this poynt as good as antiquitie without the word of God which is nothing but rottennes could make it But for so much as those auncient collegiate churches were no more lyke vnto these which we haue now then things most vnlyke our cathedrall churches haue not so much as thys olde worne cloke of antiquity to hide theyr nakednes and to keepe out the shoure For the collegiate churches in times past were a senate Ecclesiasticall standing of godly learned mynisters elders which gouerned and watched ouer that flocke which was in the citie or towne where suche churches were and for that in suche great cities and townes commonly there were the most learned pastors and auncientes therefore the townes and villages rounde about in hard and difficult causes came and had their resolutions of theyr doubtes at theyr handes euen as also the Lord commaunded in Deuteronomie that when there was any great matter in the countrey which the Leuites in matters pertayning to God and the Iudges in matters pertayning to the common wealth could not discusse that then they should come to Ierusalem where there was a great numbre of Priestes Leuites and learned Iudges of whome they should haue their questions dissolued and thys was the first vse of collegiate churches Afterward the honor which the smaller churches gaue vnto them in asking them counsell they tooke vnto them selues and that which they had by the curtesy and good will proceeding of a reuerent estimation of them they dyd not only take vnto them of right but also possessed them of all authority of hearing and determyning any matters at all And in the ende they came to thys which they are now which is a company that haue strange names and strange offyces vnhearde of of all the purer churches of whome the greatest good that wee can hope of is that they doe no harme For although there be dyuers which doe good yet in respect that they bee Deanes Prebendaries Canons Petycanons c. for my part I see no profite but hurte come to the church by them And where hee sayeth they are rewardes of learning in deede then they should be if they were conuerted vnto the mayntenance and bringing vp of scholers where now for the most part they serue for fat morsels to fill if it might be the gredy appetites of those which otherwyse haue enough to lyue with and for holes and dennes to keepe them in which eyther are vnworthy to be kept at the charge of the church or else whose presence is necessary and duetifull in other places and for the most part vnprofitable there Last of all whereas M. Doctor sayeth that we haue not to follow other churches but rather other churches to follow vs I haue answeared before thys only I adde y they were not counted only false Prophets which taught corrupt doctryne but those which made the people of God beleeue that they were happy when they were not and that their estate was very good when it was corrupt Of the which kynde of false prophecie Ieremy especially doth complayne And therefore onles M. Doctor amend hys speach leaue thys crying peace peace all is wel when there are so many things out of order and that not by the iudgement of the admonition fauorers therof only but euē of al which are not willingly blind I say if he do not amend these speches the crime of false prophesy will sit closer vnto him thē he shal be euer able to shake of in the terrible day of the lord The next section I haue answeared in the treatise