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lord_n day_n house_n time_n 11,284 5 3.5200 3 false
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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A41335 Weighty questions discussed I. Whether imposition of hands in separating a person to the work of the ministry be necessry?, II. Whether it be essential to the right constitution of a particular church, that the teaching elders and the members meet alwayes in one place? : whereunto is added a prediction of Mr. Daniel Rogers, minister in Essex, long before the beheading King Charles I and Arch-Bishop Laud, foretelling that they should not dye a natural death / by Giles Firmin ... Firmin, Giles, 1614-1697.; D. R. (Daniel Rogers), 1573-1652. 1692 (1692) Wing F969; ESTC R31512 41,078 37

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yet_o they_o may_v have_v but_o one_o teach_v elder_a and_o so_o can_v not_o carry_v on_o all_o church-work_n and_o there_o ought_v to_o be_v many_o elder_n in_o one_o church_n say_v the_o dr._n be_v they_o six_o or_o seven_o congregation_n it_o come_v to_o the_o same_o i_o have_v hear_v that_o in_o lantashire_n there_o be_v one_o great_a parish_n church_n and_o several_a chapel_n belong_v unto_o it_o in_o which_o minister_n preach_v and_o administer_v the_o lord_n supper_n which_o do_v shadow_n out_o what_o i_o aim_v at_o as_o to_o the_o example_n which_o be_v bring_v mede_n and_o fuller_n man_n of_o great_a learning_n tell_v we_o that_o in_o the_o first_o century_n christian_n have_v a_o room_n dedicate_v and_o appropriate_v to_o the_o worship_n of_o god_n what_o their_o design_n be_v i_o leave_v yet_o they_o tell_v we_o it_o be_v but_o a_o room_n in_o some_o private_a disciple_n house_n nor_o in_o the_o second_o century_n have_v they_o public_a place_n to_o meet_v in_o say_v our_o homily_n against_o idolatry_n lib._n 2._o p._n 66._o the_o lord_n tell_v paul_n act_v 18.10_o i_o have_v much_o people_n in_o corinth_n how_o much_o so_o much_o as_o may_v meet_v in_o one_o place_n in_o a_o private_a disciple_n house_n when_o their_o table_n for_o their_o love-feast_n etc._n etc._n be_v set_v this_o be_v much_o honour_n to_o the_o text._n several_a of_o the_o father_n understand_v the_o word_n church_n in_o 1_o corinth_n 11.18_o to_o be_v mean_v the_o place_n where_o the_o church_n meet_v contin●ns_fw-la pro_fw-la continento_fw-la and_o i_o think_v it_o may_v be_v so_o well_o understand_v 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d these_o be_v the_o church_n of_o the_o believe_a corinthian_n that_o meet_v together_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d in_o the_o church_n the_o church_n here_o be_v oppose_v to_o their_o own_o house_n v._o 22._o then_o i_o know_v nothing_o against_o it_o but_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d in_o the_o 14_o chap._n 34._o may_v be_v so_o understand_v let_v 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question_n if_o the_o whole_a church_n meet_v together_o in_o one_o place_n and_o at_o one_o time_n be_v essential_a to_o a_o church_n and_o it_o have_v no_o real_a ●eing_v without_o it_o than_o it_o must_v be_v prove_v 1._o either_o from_o divine_a precept_n or_o 2._o from_o the_o example_n of_o the_o church_n plant_v by_o the_o apostle_n or_o 3._o from_o force_v reason_n draw_v from_o the_o end_v of_o worship_n for_o the_o first_o i_o see_v none_o name_v but_o example_n be_v the_o proof_n and_o the_o word_n 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d mention_v in_o the_o act_n and_o corinthian_n be_v the_o cornerstone_n of_o this_o building_n five_o time_n pious_a and_o learned_a amt_n quote_v these_o word_n 755._o word_n vol._n 2._o p._n 755._o dr._n lightsoot_o have_v speak_v very_o clear_o to_o these_o word_n against_o it_o i_o grant_v where_o there_o be_v many_o elder_n and_o much_o people_n dwell_v so_o that_o they_o can_v meet_v convenient_o in_o one_o place_n to_o carry_v on_o all_o church-work_n as_o be_v the_o case_n of_o all_o the_o church_n we_o read_v of_o in_o the_o gospel_n be_v in_o city_n there_o be_v a_o particular_a church_n without_o any_o question_n so_o i_o yield_v to_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d but_o i_o wish_v these_o man_n who_o be_v so_o rigid_a for_o one_o place_n have_v but_o the_o experience_n in_o themselves_o which_o i_o have_v observe_v in_o other_o precious_a christian_n who_o have_v no_o coach_n nor_o horse_n to_o carry_v they_o but_o crazy_a body_n yet_o long_v for_o the_o ordinance_n which_o they_o may_v have_v have_v if_o my_o notion_n may_v prevail_v within_o two_o stone_n cast_v but_o for_o this_o notion_n of_o the_o one_o place_v they_o must_v travel_v two_o mile_n they_o do_v so_o but_o when_o they_o come_v home_o at_o night_n they_o be_v so_o spend_v and_o tire_v that_o to_o bed_n they_o must_v go_v the_o next_o day_n come_v complain_v to_o i_o they_o have_v lose_v the_o benefit_n of_o the_o ordinance_n they_o can_v mind_v nothing_o but_o their_o pain_n many_o christian_n have_v infirm_a body_n must_v nor_o enjoy_v the_o ordinance_n at_o all_o when_o they_o may_v have_v they_o the_o next_o door_n have_v god_n no_o respect_n to_o the_o body_n of_o his_o people_n as_o to_o the_o example_n he_o bring_v the_o question_n be_v whether_o there_o be_v no_o more_o christian_n in_o these_o city_n than_o can_v meet_v in_o one_o place_n if_o not_o then_o it_o be_v no_o more_o than_o i_o have_v yield_v before_o for_o these_o have_v many_o elder_n in_o they_o to_o carry_v on_o all_o church-work_n which_o the_o dr._n faith_n ought_v to_o be_v and_o be_v the_o thing_n i_o stand_v upon_o from_o the_o apostolical_a constitution_n of_o church_n but_o if_o his_o argument_n from_o example_n be_v so_o cogent_n than_o he_o must_v bring_v we_o example_n out_o of_o these_o city_n where_o there_o be_v more_o christian_n than_o can_v meet_v in_o one_o place_n at_o one_o time_n and_o so_o be_v force_v to_o meet_v in_o more_o place_n and_o these_o make_v more_o distinct_a church_n if_o these_o example_n can_v be_v bring_v than_o i_o yield_v the_o question_n from_o example_n but_o if_o no_o such_o example_n can_v be_v bring_v as_o i_o be_o sure_a there_o be_v not_o one_o in_o all_o the_o gospel_n then_o the_o argument_n from_o example_n fall_v and_o be_v of_o no_o force_n obj._n if_o they_o do_v meet_v in_o distinct_a place_n they_o be_v and_o must_v be_v distinct_a church_n answ_n but_o his_o proof_n be_v all_o from_o example_n and_o that_o imply_v there_o be_v such_o church_n de_fw-fr facto_fw-la else_o there_o can_v be_v no_o example_n 2._o i_o deny_v the_o consequence_n for_o though_o a_o number_n of_o christian_n do_v swarm_v out_o of_o the_o first_o church_n
rule_n in_o the_o house_n of_o god_n contrary_v to_o that_o confession_n why_o imposition_n of_o hand_n by_o elder_n of_o other_o church_n shall_v be_v irregular_a he_o name_v no_o scripture_n to_o prove_v it_o but_o if_o it_o be_v omit_v that_o ordination_n say_v he_o be_v irregular_a this_o we_o be_v sure_a of_o from_o scripture_n that_o be_v enough_o for_o i_o if_o it_o be_v irregular_a then_o it_o be_v not_o due_a ordination_n for_o the_o rule_n have_v not_o its_o due_a give_v to_o it_o if_o such_o ordination_n can_v be_v valid_a to_o what_o purpose_n be_v the_o rule_n we_o shall_v have_v strange_a thing_n follow_v if_o this_o be_v admit_v that_o in_o religion_n and_o in_o the_o house_n of_o god_n act_n may_v be_v valid_a which_o be_v not_o conformable_a to_o the_o word_n of_o god_n the_o word_n say_v thus_o but_o these_o act_n answer_v it_o not_o pious_a and_o learned_a mr._n faldo_n before_o his_o death_n write_v i_o word_n that_o one_o of_o the_o brethren_n against_o imposition_n of_o hand_n be_v with_o he_o and_o debate_v the_o question_n with_o he_o and_o this_o especial_o he_o stick_v at_o he_o will_v not_o allow_v the_o elder_n of_o one_o particular_a church_n to_o perform_v office-act_n to_o those_o that_o be_v not_o of_o that_o church_n mr._n faldo_n tell_v i_o he_o give_v he_o a_o formal_a argument_n to_o prove_v that_o it_o may_v be_v and_o in_o many_o case_n it_o must_v be_v admit_v this_o he_o desire_v to_o write_v down_o and_o do_v so_o and_o i_o believe_v it_o will_v be_v see_v by_o other_o in_o this_o town_n of_o his_o opinion_n and_o if_o they_o will_v take_v occasion_n to_o ventilate_v that_o difference_n brotherly_n it_o will_v not_o be_v decline_v by_o some_o of_o your_o and_o my_o mind_n thus_o mr._n faldo_n what_o that_o argument_n be_v mr._n faldo_n do_v not_o write_v i_o write_v to_o that_o brother_n desire_v he_o to_o let_v i_o know_v it_o but_o i_o can_v obtain_v it_o he_o search_v for_o it_o but_o can_v not_o find_v it_o but_o now_o for_o imposition_n of_o hand_n in_o separate_v a_o person_n to_o office_n in_o the_o house_n of_o god_n this_o come_v in_o by_o a_o express_a command_n of_o god_n numb_a 8.10_o 14._o who_o be_v mean_v by_o the_o son_n of_o israel_n in_o the_o 10_o verse_n be_v the_o question_n mr_n pool_n say_v the_o first-born_a or_o chief_a of_o the_o tribe_n the_o same_o person_n i_o presume_v may_v be_v both_o and_o most_o probable_a it_o be_v so_o first_o chark●ni_n as_o mr._n ainsworth_n quote_v he_o and_o agree_v with_o he_o in_o it_o say_v they_o be_v the_o first-born_a in_o this_o case_n he_o may_v be_v credit_v as_o soon_o as_o any_o christian_a writer_n second_o we_o read_v in_o the_o three_o next_o verse_n 16_o 17_o 18_o the_o lord_n tell_v moses_n three_z time_n that_o he_o have_v take_v the_o levite_n instead_o of_o the_o first-born_a hence_o it_o be_v most_o probable_a the_o first-born_a be_v they_o who_o impose_v hand_n on_o the_o levite_n three_o by_o this_o act_n say_v mr._n pool_n they_o signify_v their_o transserring_n that_o right_o of_o minister_a to_o god_n from_o the_o first-born_a in_o who_o hand_n it_o former_o be_v very_o good_a but_o who_o shall_v or_o who_o can_v give_v away_o the_o first-borns-right_a but_o themselves_o we_o read_v exod_a 24.5_o moses_n send_v the_o young_a man_n of_o the_o son_n of_o israel_n and_o they_o offer_v burn_v offering_n who_o be_v these_o young_a man_n the_o chaldee_n say_v 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d primogeniti_fw-la the_o first_o bear_v these_o be_v the_o priest_n or_o sacrificer_n until_o the_o levite_n have_v the_o priesthood_n in_o their_o tribe_n so_o numb_a 3.12_o it_o be_v certain_a the_o first-born_a have_v many_o privilege_n though_o esau_n despise_v his_o eirth-right_a then_o the_o first-born_a must_v impose_v hand_n and_o give_v away_o their_o privilege_n but_o shall_v they_o who_o have_v no_o right_n give_v away_o another_o man_n be_v right_a four_o the_o first-born_a be_v separate_v exod._n 13.2_o sanctify_v unto_o i_o every_o first-born_a in_o their_o sanctification_n there_o be_v a_o separation_n now_o it_o be_v most_o probable_a that_o they_o who_o be_v separate_v do_v separate_v the_o levite_n and_o not_o other_o i_o insist_v upon_o this_o for_o a_o reason_n i_o shall_v give_v hereafter_o let_v our_o opposite_n give_v better_a reason_n to_o prove_v they_o be_v not_o the_o first_o bear_v as_o this_o practice_n come_v into_o the_o church_n by_o god_n command_n so_o it_o continue_v in_o the_o jewish_a church_n dr._n lightfoot_n tell_v we_o that_o some_o man_n who_o give_v themselves_o to_o the_o study_n of_o the_o law_n become_v very_o learned_a man_n which_o they_o may_v the_o law_n be_v in_o their_o own_o tongue_n and_o do_v teach_v beside_o the_o priest_n and_o the_o levite_n but_o none_o without_o be_v first_o ordain_v and_o that_o with_o imposition_n of_o hand_n dr._n owen_n affirm_v the_o same_o when_o the_o gospel-church_n be_v to_o be_v erect_v the_o apostle_n with_o who_o christ_n have_v speak_v of_o thing_n pertain_v to_o the_o kingdom_n of_o god_n act_v 1.3_o when_o a_o deacon_n be_v to_o be_v set_v apart_o to_o his_o office_n they_o do_v it_o with_o imposition_n of_o hand_n act_n 6.6_o and_o so_o the_o church_n practise_v ever_o afterward_o act_v 13.3_o 1_o tim._n 4.14_o 1_o tim._n 5.22_o heb._n 6.2_o of_o which_o text_n more_o anon_o this_o be_v the_o practice_n of_o the_o church_n next_o the_o apostle_n and_o ever_o since_o among_o the_o father_n papist_n and_o protestant_n both_o lutheran_n calvinist_n episcopal_n presbyterian_a independent_o i_o never_o see_v in_o my_o time_n 4.5_o platfor_n ch._n dise_z cap._n 9_o thes_n 4.5_o while_o i_o be_v there_o nor_o ever_o hear_v since_o i_o come_v from_o new_a england_n tho_o i_o have_v inquire_v that_o any_o one_o be_v ordain_v to_o any_o office_n in_o the_o church_n without_o imposition_n of_o hand_n thus_o the_o synod_n hold_v there_o 1680._o there_o and_o approve_v by_o the_o synod_n hold_v at_o boston_n 1680._o 1649._o tell_v we_o upon_o these_o hypothesis_n that_o the_o fraternity_n be_v the_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d of_o the_o power_n of_o the_o key_n and_o that_o election_n give_v the_o essence_n if_o there_o be_v no_o elder_n imposition_n of_o hand_n may_v be_v perform_v by_o some_o of_o the_o brethren_n numb_a 8.10_o but_o there_o be_v a_o difference_n between_o the_o first-born_a there_o and_o our_o private_a brethren_n and_o good_a reason_n why_o they_o shall_v impose_v hand_n and_o not_o our_o private_a men._n it_o be_v not_o so_o in_o the_o gospel-church_n it_o be_v irregular_a say_v dr._n owen_n but_o by_o this_o we_o see_v how_o imposition_n of_o hand_n must_v be_v and_o be_v in_o practice_n in_o the_o next_o thesis_n the_o five_o they_o tell_v we_o in_o such_o church_n where_o there_o be_v no_o elder_n and_o the_o church_n desire_v it_o we_o see_v not_o why_o imposition_n of_o hand_n may_v not_o be_v perform_v by_o the_o elder_n of_o other_o church_n 13.3_o 1_o tim._n 4.14_o act._n 13.3_o ordinary_a officer_n lay_v hand_n upon_o officer_n of_o many_o church_n the_o presbytery_n at_o ephesus_n lay_v hand_n upon_o timothy_n a_o evangelist_n the_o presbytery_n at_o antioch_n lay_v hand_n upon_o paul_n and_o barnabas_n these_o man_n do_v not_o tell_v we_o this_o be_v their_o judgement_n but_o they_o give_v we_o the_o holy_a scripture_n for_o what_o they_o say_v whereas_o the_o savoy_n confession_n give_v we_o not_o one_o word_n of_o scripture_n but_o only_o tell_v we_o where_o the_o essence_n of_o a_o pastor_n lie_v without_o imposition_n of_o hand_n which_o be_v deny_v i_o must_v say_v with_o tertullian_n non_fw-la recipio_fw-la quod_fw-la extra_fw-la scripturam_fw-la de_fw-la tuo_fw-la inser_n si_fw-mi apostolicus_n cum_fw-la apostolis_n senti_fw-la i_o find_v in_o the_o begin_n of_o the_o reformation_n of_o the_o church_n of_o scotland_n when_o they_o come_v new_o out_o of_o popery_n imposition_n of_o hand_n be_v not_o judge_v necessary_a 26._o an._n 1560._o pag._n 26._o as_o i_o read_v in_o the_o history_n put_v out_o by_o mr._n calderwood_n that_o man_n of_o god_n mr._n robert_n bruce_n who_o name_v i_o honour_v be_v not_o ordain_v thus_o nor_o any_o other_o way_n that_o i_o can_v learn_v as_o if_o there_o be_v something_o in_o he_o extraordinary_a though_o i_o honour_v the_o man_n yet_o we_o must_v stick_v to_o our_o rule_n and_o not_o mr._n bruce_n 105._o an._n 1581._o pag._n 105._o but_o afterward_o they_o tell_v we_o how_o ordination_n be_v to_o be_v perform_v viz._n by_o fast_v prayer_n and_o imposition_n of_o the_o hand_n of_o the_o eldership_n after_o this_o pag._n 383._o they_o make_v it_o indifferent_a but_o at_o a_o general_a assembly_n 408._o an._n 1597._o pag._n 408._o it_o be_v order_v that_o
of_o confirmation_n and_o bid_v i_o see_v dr._n owen_n so_o interpret_n it_o i_o honour_v the_o doctor_n and_o will_v consider_v he_o when_o i_o have_v first_o prove_v it_o be_v mean_v of_o ordination_n if_o man_n judgement_n be_v worth_a any_o thing_n then_o for_o learning_n and_o holiness_n we_o have_v very_o eminent_a man_n for_o it_o archbishop_n usher_n mr._n cart-wright_n dr._n lightfoot_n mr._n thomas_n hooker_n gualther_n tossanus_n bullinger_n gillespy_n dicson_n johnson_n jacob_n these_o understand_v it_o only_o of_o ordination_n other_o divine_v of_o confirmation_n and_o ordination_n and_o christianity_n and_o because_o my_o brother_n charge_v i_o with_o my_o false_a quotation_n of_o mr._n cart-wright_n take_v his_o word_n on_o heb._n 6.2_o by_o imposition_n of_o hand_n the_o apostle_n mean_v no_o sacrament_n much_o less_o confirmation_n after_o baptism_n but_o by_o a_o trope_n or_o borrow_a speech_n the_o ministry_n of_o the_o church_n upon_o the_o which_o band_n be_v lay_v which_o appear_v in_o that_o whosoever_o believe_v not_o there_o ought_v to_o be_v a_o ministry_n by_o order_n to_o teach_v and_o govern_v the_o church_n overthrow_v christianity_n dr._n owen_n here_o do_v not_o exclude_v it_o one_a i_o lay_v the_o foundation_n for_o my_o proof_n in_o these_o word_n 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 1.5_o not_o lay_v again_o the_o foundation_n this_o then_o be_v a_o fundamental_a point_n foundation_n must_v last_v as_o long_o as_o the_o house_n last_v confirmation_n by_o extraordinary_a gift_n convey_v in_o the_o imposition_n of_o hand_n do_v not_o last_v so_o long_o as_o the_o church_n last_v the_o church_n have_v lose_v this_o above_o fifteen_o hundred_o year_n but_o the_o ministry_n intend_v in_o this_o place_n shall_v last_v to_o the_o end_n of_o the_o world_n mat._n 28.20_o till_o the_o body_n of_o christ_n be_v perfect_v eph._n 4.12_o 13._o therefore_o this_o be_v the_o foundation_n the_o other_o head_n of_o catechism_n that_o be_v join_v with_o it_o 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