Selected quad for the lemma: lord_n
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A30942
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The disputation at Winchcomb November 9, 1653 together with the letters and testimonies pertinent thereto : wherein is offered some satisfaction in serveral points of religion.
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Barksdale, Clement, 1609-1687.
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1654
(1654)
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Wing B794; ESTC R23641
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73,761
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196
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fair Interpretation of it out of the Excellent Paraphrast Tell it to the Church i. e. to the Rulers of the Assemblies Verily I say unto you to you the designed Rulers of the Church and your Successors the Bishops H. Enough enough pray who is your Author there B. Regard not so much who as what No matter whose the words are if they cleer the Text. This Author Mr. Tr. shews you the true sense of the next verse concerning two or three It is the manner of Scripture where severall things are mentioned to resume the last first and so go back In this retrogradous order the Power of the Church which was last mentioned is spoken of v. 18. and then the two or three are again mentioned which were spoken of v. 16. I will cleer it if you please by sundry the like passages See in of Binding and Loosing pag. 12. c. W. We have enough of you already I would not goe over the door sill to Dispute with one upon whose spirit I see so much of the Pope B. No Gloster-Hall man would say so but you And you say so because you have nothing else to say I am far from Popery and I doubt you are neer it with your Independency Col. A. But Pray-thee what Author have you there on the Text B. I will obey you It is the great ornament of the English Church the Learned and pious Doctor Hammond W. c. An Arminian an Arminian To. That 's a very indirect answer when the words alleged tend not to Arminianism but to the support of Christianism B. I feared you would cast some aspersion upon this Brave Man and therefore would have concealed his name under a silent veneration But you are mistaken when you think the Doctrine of Universall Redemption Arminianism It was the Doctrine of the Church of England before Arminius was born Wee learn it out of the old Church-Catechism I believe in Jesus Christ who redeemed me all mankind And the Church hath learned it out of the plaine Scripture where Christ is the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the World c. To. God would have all men to be saved Therefore Christ is the Redeemer of all men Col. A. Paul in that Text to Tim speaks de generibus singulorum not de singulis generum B. S. Paul speaks de singulis generum for elsewhere it is said Christ tasted death for every man Heb. 2. 9. a convincing Text. W. There is a distinction of voluntas signi beneplaciti B. If God hath signified and revealed to us that he would have all men to be saved then it is most true that he would have All men to be saved But he hath signified c. He knows not to lye or to dissemble C. I desire to propose an Argument in this Question if you please to answer me B. Most willingly You are a courteous Gentleman C. If Christ died for all men then shall all men be saved But all men shall not be saved Therefore B. I deny the sequel of your major C. Christ cannot fail of his intention Therefore if Christ died for all men all men shall be saved B. I deny your Antecedent C. To fail of ones intention argues imperfefection But you must not lay any imperfection upon Christ B. No by no meanes Therefore I answer One may fail of his intention two waye either by ones own fault or by the fault of another to whom good is intended Christ failes of his intention not through his own fault but ours he is not wanting to us we are wanting to our selves And I beseech you all dear Christians take heed of conceiving hard thoughts of God of Christ as if he would the death of a sinner Tr. God in his eternall Purpose hath appointed to save some and to damne others B. The purpose of God is absolute or conditionall God purposeth not the damnation of any absolutely but Conditionally upon his refusall of the meanes And for election consider what the Apostle saith He hath chosen us in Christ Eph. 1. 4. See also the judicious Mr. Hooker's distinction of Gods generall inclination and his occasioned Will lib. 5. s 49. Wherefore Beloved I charge you again Take heed that you think not ill of God and of Christ as if he were not really and sincerely willing you should be saved Hear Christ mourning affectionately over Jerusalem How oft would I and thou wouldst not Hear God speaking most pathetically in the Prophet As I live saith the Lord I desire not the death of a sinner Will you not take his word Take his Oath As I live saith the Lord I desire not the death of a sinner but that he turn from his way and live Turn ye Turn ye why will ye dye O house of Israel Turn yee Turn yee why will ye dye O yee opposers of the Truth H. You see Brethren what he is we have enough of him It is high time to conclude Sir I desire to conclude all with Prayer B. Sir I have answered your Objections and I take my leave of you For to your Prayers I fear I shall not be able to answer AMEN PSAL. 115. 1. Not unto us O Lord not unto us but unto Thy Name give the Prayse for thy Mercy and for thy Truths sake ADDITIONS ON the By it was said by Mr. To. that although there be no precept for Episcopacy in the New Testament the Apostolicall Institution of it is enough to commend it to us For we have not more to shew for the Lords day than for Episcopacy How then can we maintain the one and abolish the other When the opponent rejected the Authority of the Primitive Church Mr. To. said You do the Papists greater service than you are aware when for feare of Popery you disclaim the Fathers Col. A. In the Revelation the Lords day is called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 there is the name and we have the practice in other places Holy assemblies on the first day of the week To. True Sir and so much we have for Episcopacy as hath been shewed already B. I remember well I have heard the Learned Doctor of the Chair Dr. Prideaux publickly declaring in the Divinity School that he could not prove the observation of the Lords day by Divine Command in any place of the New Testament but that the Apostolicall practice and example followed by the Church was sufficient to give it a kind of Divine right The like may be said for Episcopacy Church by plain Grammaticall construction doth signify no other thing than the Lords house From 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Kyrc and by adding letters of aspiration Church Hooker l. 5. 13. See the great Hugo Grotius of Authority Ch. 11. Also the Considerations touching the change of Church-Government The Respondent not knowing the most eager Disputant among his Opponents craved his name I was your Collegue saith he B. What I. W. of Gloster-Hall you were an early student in
what you delivered at Winchcomb Nov. 8. in disgrace of our Ministry and Parish-Churches but if you go on to decline answering and are only good at opposing I do not refuse to appear again in defence not only of our ministring the Sacrament but of the other two Theses That your new Churches are not the only true Churches And That Christ was truly Preached before these late years Upon which in conformity to the old Vniversity fashion I take leave to adde here not any Libel as one of you called it but my sad Epigram Papists took one away but you combine To rob the People both of Bread and Wine They blame us ' cause we have not Rites so many But you condemn us more ' cause we have any They will not call us Catholicks you can Scarce yield us the first name of Christian Poor English Church thy enemies from Rome Were cruel more unkind are these at home Your servant in the Truth Clement Barksdale Oxon. Nov. 16. 1653. Disputandi Sobrietas Ecclesiarum Medicina A true Account of a Dispute at Winchcomb-Parish-Church November 9. 1653. Written by a careful Observer November 11. and Printed with Licence November 16. for the satisfaction of the People at and neer Winchcomb Great is the Truth and it will prevail UPON the ninth of this November between nine and ten in the Morning Mr. Barksdale Minister at Sudeley the Respondent having waited a while for the comming of the Opponents first enters Mr. Helm Minister at Winchcomb immediately after him enters Collonel Aileworth Justice of peace Mr. Tray Minister at Oddington Mr. Wells Minister at Tewksbury Mr. Chaffy Minister at Naunton and some other 1. After they had taken possession of the Ministers Pue all together the Respondent ascends a Pue ex opposito which he had caused to be erected for the purpose his friend Mr. Towers Minister at Toddington and some other Orthodox Ministers taking up a lower seat next unto him on the right hand where first falling on his knees after a short ejaculation he shews himself and saluted his Opponents and after some little Pause the Question was proposed Whether it be lawful to Minister and Receive the Holy Sacrament in Congregations called mixt Or in our Parish-Churches Aff. The prior Opponent Mr. H. desired to begin with prayer Take your liberty said the Respondent who after the Preface wherein like a good Orator the Opponent told the people that Truth must look for opposition and that the Respondent was a native of the place and himself a stranger and the prayer done spake thus You will now give me leave also to speak three words 1. To God 2. To the Hearers 3. To the Opponents 1. To God I make my humble address and intreat you to lift up your hearts with me that he would be pleased to open our eyes that we may see the Truth to open our Hearts that we may embrace the Truth and to give us courage to confess the Truth and to hold it fast unto the end for Jesus Christs sake to whom be glory for ever 2. To the Hearers my earnest desire is that you would lay aside all prejudice and partiality and listen to what shall be said on either side with silence and patience And because I am a man of a slow Tongue of a tender Forehead of a frail Memory of a weak Judgement I have the more cause to beg of you my friends your secret assistance by your mental prayer that God would support me so far as I defend his cause For I declare in the presence of God the searcher of hearts that I do verily think that to be true which I maintain and that I am not willingly an enemy to true Reformation or the work of God in this place as I have been grievously charged nor am I a friend to any thing that can justly be called Popish or Antichristian God knows I detest and abhor it 3. Lastly to these Gentlemen my Opponents my request is that you would deal with me fairly and Scholar-like Take you your turns and give me mine to speak come you on one after one and let me have liberty to repeat to deny to distinguish to explain what I say so far as is needful And to conclude if we cannot agree in our opinions let us yet I pray be one in Affection and preserve amongst us that Christian Peace and Charity which is the mark and the honour of the Disciples of our gracious Lord and Master The Respondent in one of his papers afore this exercise had called the publick Meeting place as they term it the House of God But one of the Opponents Mr. W. put forward and omitting the Question began in a light velitation about that Appellation after this manner W. The House of God it is Superstition to call the place so B. I deny that proposition prove it W. The People of God are alone his House God dwells in the Hearts of his Saints B. I Answer the House of God is either the Spiritual House or the Material House The Hearts of his Elect People are the Spiritual House wherein it pleaseth God to dwell and reside This place built by our pious Ancestors and separated from other uses to his Honour and Service may without offence be called his Material House W. This House was not built for the Honour and Service of God B. I expect your proof of that Proposition W. Thus The House built in the reign of Popery and for the Honour and Adoration of Saints was not built for the honour and Service of God But this House was built in the reign of Popery and for the Honour and Adoration of Saints Therefore this House was not built for the Honour and Service of God B. I repeat The House built c. And I answer to the major by distinguishing of the end for which the House was built The End is either principal or less principal This House was built for the Honour and service of God as the principal End it was built for the Honour and Adoration of Saints as the less principal End In the Reformation of Religion our Church reteined the first End and rectifyed the second Honouring the Saints with a pious Memory not Adoring them with divine Worship Hear the Church her self speak in her excellent Liturgy W. H. Away with it we will hear none of your Liturgy and old Forms B. But I must clear the Church from all suspicion of Adoring the Saints and make the Truth evident out of the Collect for All-Saints day and 't is worthy to be heard of All Almighty God which hast knit together thy elect in one Communion and fellowship in the mystical body of thy Son Jesus Christ our Lord grant us grace so to follow thy holy Saints in all vertuous and Godly living that we may come to those unspeakable joys which thou hast prepared for them that unfeignedly love thee through Jesus Christ our Lord Amen I beseech