on the other parte séeing the testimonies are so plaine and many what meaneth maister Harding to make this any vntruthe But what dareth he not doe to make vp his number that affirmeth this one vntruthe fiue times Now by the way least I shold séeme to speake against the vse of the sunday I say and professe that we cā not vse it too reuerently Anathasius saith that the sabboth of the Iewes was by Christ turned into our sunday but whether that were so or no it resteth vpon Athasius aucthoritie it may be well thought that it is true Christ will haue vs gather together in his name And S. Iohn calleth it the Lords day S. Luke and S Paule the first day of the weke in which the Apostles assembled the people therfore thou art bound to giue all obedience and holinesse vnto the Lorde on that day But take héede now thou deceiue not thy self Looke not after any licentiousnesse on the munday thinke not that God more accompteth of one day than other As on sunday thou commest into the congregation and shewest thy selfe thankfull vnto the Lord for his benefites so on euery day thou must shew thy selfe thankfull and shew the same obedience in testimony of thy conscience which on the sunday thou shewest in open vsage and thus thou shalt kéepe holy the sabboth day The B. of Saris. S. Ambrose saith euery weeke we must celebrate the oblation althoughe not euery day vnto straungers yet vnto the inhabitants at least twise a weeke Harding The .134 vntruthe This place is altogether falsified Dering This vntruthe may be hardly verified if the place be altogether falsified But maister Harding dothe so often speake vntruely that now we may not beleue him w tout good proofe Let vs sée then what he saith S. Ambrose Omni hebdomada offerendum est etiam si non quotidie peregrinis incolis tamen vel bis in hebdomada These words M. Iuel dothe Englishe as before appeareth This translation saith maister Harding is altogether false But why saith he so Let him bar distinctions and proue it if he can Undoubtedly if snow be not black this interpretation is true but why dothe maister Harding finde fault wiih it Thus he saith offerre peregrinis is to offer for straungers not to straungers and why is it so forsoothe by this rule all manner of verbes put acquisitiuely that is to say with this signe for after them wil haue a datiue case it might haue pleased him to haue alleaged his rule truely then it should haue bene thus hauing this signe to or for after them so notwithstanding this rule yet the interpretation had bene good but graunt the rule what a reason is this all verbes that haue this signe for after them require a datiue case Ergo offerre peregrinis is to offer for straungers He might as well conclude Ergo loquor tibi is to speake for thée or dare tibi to giue it for thée But M. Harding why would not this rule haue serued héere verbes compounded with these propositions prae con sub ob in and inter will haue a datiue case Well may we haue some opinion of our Louanists English but sure their Logicke and their Latine is but very base M. Dorman alleaging in his boke this text of S. Iohn Diabolus est mendax pater eius doth English it thus the diuel is a lier and so was his father before him Was he wel in his wit or was he yet a dreaming or is his Diuinitie so slender that he knoweth not who is the Deuils father Sure ignorance may not excuse a man that speaketh blasphemie the Deuil hath no father only God created him an Angell Erasmus fearing such sléeping Diuines doth turne it thus eius rei pater and father of that thing If M. Dorman had consulted with him and not so sodenly become of a iangling lawyer an vngodly Diuine he wold haue written more aduisedly but as hath bene héeretofore aptly obiected to him he gate vpon the bridge and was made a bacheler and so by muche haste ouershot himselfe muche like as maister Harding doth héere who Englisheth offerre peregrinis to offer for straungers Alowe this for good Latine and his distinctions for good reason and then goe yoke Foxes and milke hée Goates his vntruthe shall rise at his owne pleasure The B. of Saris. The .28 Diuision Here Master Harding notably betrayeth him selfe laying forth for a countenaunce a fiue of Chrysostoms words and the same nothing to the matter hewing and mangling them as he listeth best Harding The .135 vntruthe Those words be to the matter The .136 vntruthe I mangle them not Dering What M. Harding meaneth by this vntruth I know not vnlesse it be as M. Iuel saith notably to betray himselfe His purpose is to proue priuate Masse as all men doe know but these words do not proue it as he himself confesseth Reioind fol. 206. the conclusion of these is plaine therfore these words are not to the purpose Neither shal this other vntruth néede any long answer He can do little y t cannot say nay M. Iuels Replie doth wel sufficiently proue it M. Hardings gainsaying is not sufficient for an vntruthe Read the Replie Fo. 65. The B. of Saris. Chrysostome saith this sacrifice is but one bicause it hath relation vnto that one sacrifice of Christ. Harding The .137 vntruthe He rendreth no suche cause Dering Bicause M. Hard. cā not blame the allegation he findeth fault w t M. Iuels meaning and saith S. Chrysostom giueth no such cause But whether he giueth any such or no not M. Hardīgs vnderstāding but Chrysostoms words must be the iudge thus he writeth Quo modo vna est hostia non multae Quia semel oblata est oblata est in sancta sāctorū Hoc autē sacrificiū exemplar est illius How is it one oblation not many He answereth bicause it was once offred it was offred into y e holy place but this sacrifice is an example of that These are his very words héere he speaketh plain the cause why we sacrificing or cōmunicating in sundry places haue but one sacrifice or cōmunion is bicause our sacrifice is an exāple of y e one sacrifice of Christ. If M. Harding can find any other vnderstanding of these words then sure his maner of vnderstāding is to make words sound what him list But vnderstād he how and what he wil Chrysostoms words are plaine Ther are many places in the olde doctors which teach the very same but it is néedelesse to reherse them when our sauior Christ saith Do this in my remembrāce Except M. Harding wil haue no relation betwene the thing and the remembrāce of the thing what meaneth he to make this vntruthe The B. of Saris. Chrisostome saith this sacrifice is an example of that Harding The .138 vntruthe Chrysostome saith not so that this is an example of that this place is fowly corrupt Dering In the
naming the holy captain Iosue for the Prophet Ose. fo 98. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 fo 100. expresse for represse fol â—od alone hereof for in earth aboue hir fol. 102. but you haue for but your churche hath fol. 104. cansabo for cantabo fol. 111. Antonius for Antoninus And after thou shalt finde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 destruction for distinction could easily for could not easily These and suche other faultes escaped in the printing of my boke as well in the wordes as in the pointing how many so euer thou shalt ascribe vnto me so many iniuries thou shalt doe me He is a simple scholer that can not write truely and the pointing is not so difficult that it requireth any great learning for other things what so euer shalbe founde blame worthy the fault is mine owne and wherein souer the enimy shall finde his fault I doubt not but I shall by Gods grace be able to defend it The force of truth is such that though the patrone be simple yet she will defend hir self especially suche truth as hath made hir selfe so manifest The truthe of God that standeth vpon a hill and may be seene of all men the truth that shineth as a light in a darke place and as the day starre arising in our heartes that truthe whose glorious beautie hath darkned the painted and deceiueable lokes of the purple whore of Babilon It is now no mastery sith we know God to know him that lifteth vp himself against God sith we know Christ to know Antichrist sith we know Peter to know Peters forged successoure And for as much as to this issue al our controuersie is come that what right or authoritie so euer the Pope chalengeth he maketh his whole claime from Peter and the papists themselues will defende him no further but so farre as he succedeth Peter I will speake a little of Peters bishoprike of Rome so farre as the scriptures shall be my warrant Consider thou of it good christian Reader that shall be said and if thou see that all the glorying of Peters being at Rome is but a fasing out of an impudent he then iudge what is their other religion First here I must forwarne thee that as a lie can not long agree with it selfe so in all this matter thou shalt hardly finde in all pointes two popishe chronicles agree togither So that what so euer I wryte as touching the exacte computation of yeres there must needes be many against me Therefore in that I will not striue only I will wryte that which is certaine and shall haue as I said either some warrant of scripture or shall be agreed on by the consent of all ages Our sauioure Christ was crucified for our sinnes the .18 yeare of Tyberius as by all histories it is manifest Peter is said to be put to deathe in Rome the last yeare of Nero so Peter liued after Christ vnder Tyberius .v. yeare Caligula 4. yeare Claudius .13 yeare Nero. 13 yeare In all .36 yeares and odde monthes according to the raigne of the saide Emperoures in these .36 yeares and odde moneths they vvryte of Peter thus He vvas bishop â–ª 4. yeares in the East partes .7 yeares at Antioche and .25 yeares at Rome vvhere at last he died Heere this fable doeth almost bevvray it selfe suche hasty enstallings and so many translatings out of one bishopprike into an other doeth not vvell agree vvith oure sauiours vvordes that they should haue affliction in the vvorlde But let vs searche the scriptures and trie hovve these Bishopprikes vvil stande After that our Sauioure is ascended they goe into Ierusalem all the Apostles togither they choose Mathie the Apostle After fiftye dayes they receiue the holy Ghost Peter conuerteth many After certaine dayes Peter and Iohn goe vppe in to the Temple they heale the lame they are put in prisone they are forbidden to preache anye more in the name of Iesus then they returne vnto the other Apostles and tary many daies togither working many miracles amoÌ„g the people in so much that the Cities round about resorted daily to Ierusalem to haue their sick and diseased healed Then again the Apostles are put in prison and God deliuereth theÌ„ and many dayes they preach in the temple and in euery house After this came a great persecution against the Church at Ierusalem in so much that they were all dispearsed sauing the Apostles Then at the laste after many dayes Peter is sent out of Ierusalem into Samaria where he preacheth in diuers townes about Thus farre good Reader thou seest plainly Peter is no bishop nor yet in any speciall authoritie when the other Apostles sende him out to preache Then he returneth againe to Ierusalem and this is one yeare after the death of our sauioure Christ as the histories do all agree in reporting the conuersion of S. Paule which was nowe done as appeareth Act. 9. This is the yeare of our Lord .35 In the yere of our Lord .38 He dwelleth in Ierusalem Gal. 1.18 Likewise in the yere of our Lorde .46 he is imprisoned at IerusaleÌ„ Act. 12.2 Againe in the yeare of our Lord .48 he is at the councel holden in Ierusalem Act. 15.7 from that day forward he giueth his faith vnto Paule and Barnabas that he will be an Apostle not to the Romaines but to the Iewes Gal. 2.9 vvhich truely he accompliâ—hed euen vntill his death and doubtlesse neuer came at Rome Now christian reader seing the scripture lieth thus that Peters aboade in Ierusalem after the conuersion of S. Paule Anno Domini .35 is recorded .iij. seuerall times And after the last time a couenaunt made that he woulde continue among the Iewes If I shall proue vnto thee that these seuerall times are rightly numbred according to the yeare of the Lorde that is that the first time was the .38 yeare the seconde time the .46 yeare the third time the .48 yeare and then in the meane while betwene the .35 yeare and the .38 likewise the .38 and the .46 and betwene the .46 and .48 that Peter was not in Rome last of all that he was true of his promise and after the .48 yeare came not at Rome then I trust thou wilt confesse with me that Peter was neuer .25 yeares Bishop of Rome But that all poperie as it is in it selfe nothing but lies so it is grounded wholly and altogither vpon lies First it is agreed vpon by all the thing is plaine in it self Paule was conuerted the yere of our Lord .35 TheÌ„ Paule himself writeth thus After three yeres I came to IerusaleÌ„ to see Peter and abode in his house .xv. dayes so this was the .38 yere of our Lord when Peter is first in IerusaleÌ„ When he was after imprisoned at Ierusalem Act. 12.2 that it was the .46 yeare of our Lorde it is proued thus The countreis about â–ª that is Tyre and Sidon were
first how vnwares he speaketh contrarie to him selfe He confesseth flatly that this negatiue of S. Gregorie wherin he denieth any ought to be vniuersall Bishop is in defence of the truth Yet Maister Harding in the fourth article goeth about to proue that the pope is vniuersal B. so by his own confession he goeth about to proue a lye Secondarely he confesseth at the last that Maister Cranmar was a Byshop and Maister Iuell with other his felowes are Bishops yet at other times he and his fellowes wil in no case graunt it Thirdly he saith no B. of Sarisburie was a Caluinist before Maister Iuell and that is a manifest lye Fourthly that no Byshop of Canterbury was maried before Cranmar and that is an otherlie So in al this former péece either he speaketh nothing but lyes or if it be true it is such truth as by open writing he hath impugned But Maister Harding bicause he can not deny this contrarietie he will bid vs proue the other that any B. of Sarisbury hath bene of one religion with Caluin or that any B. of Cant. hath bene maried In déede this is the ground of their whole religion bold asseuerations without any manner warrant and then they bid vs proue the contrary But although this vnequall dealing be not good and he that teacheth anye thing shoulde proue the same to be true yet I am content for truthes sake to reproue in fewe woordes these negatiues of Maister Hardings First this forbidding mariage was vniuersally established by Pope Siluester the seconde who was made Pope by the meanes and woorking of the deuil as their own writers confesse in the yeare of our Lord 980. Yet I graunt through the folly of vnlearned bishops about .400 yeares after Christ matrimonie in the cleargy began to be misliked especially in the West church For in the East church they made no account of it yea they thought it was no hinderaunce to the minister for perfourmance of his dutie in Gods church But as I haue said the West church in many places forbad it And S. Ierom although in many places he speake reuerently and well of it yet in some places vpon his owne priuate affection he misliketh it But as touching this purpose more then thre hundred yeares after Christ Priestes mariage was thought verie lawfull But the English men receiued the faith of Christ in the latter time of Nero as Gildas witnesseth an olde writer and a Britan who liued in the yeare of our Lord .580 and will Maister Harding say that the thing being lawfull yet in .300 yeare togither there was neuer a Byshop maried And let Mayster Harding héere make no exception either that in those dayes ther was no Byshops of Canterbury or Sarisbury or that Gildas auctority is not good Theodoretus saith that S. Paule him selfe preached héere in his latter time Nicephorus and other moe say they receiued the fayth in the yere of our Lord 63. by Ioseph of Arimathia After this supersticion began againe to bréede then an .179 many preachers were sent for to call them againe to their former profession Whervpō Tertullian speaking of this age saith Britānorum inaccessa Romanis loca Christo fuerin◠subdita And Petrus Cluniacensis speaking of the Scots calleth them christianos antiquiores the most auncient christian men And the story is knowen how Lucius then King of England was very diligent in setting out the Gospell Thus it appeareth the true faith hath bene in Englande almost euer since our sauiour Christ died Now y t in those daies ther wer bishops in Englād it is likewise manifest When Eleutherius the Pope 177. sent preachers into England they found here .3 called archiflamines and .25 called flamines which he turned in to thrée archbishops .25 byshops Thus much then is clere that in England were Christian bishops and they might mary Now to proue that they were maried it is plaine by Gildas in the latter ende of his booke where he reproueth the Bishops their wiues and their children So this lying negatiue of M. Harding is reproued that sayth no Bishop was euer maried in England before Bishop Cranmer For the other negatiue that there was neuer B. of Sarisburie of that religion which Caluine taught it appeareth by M. Iuels Replie which sheweth that not onely in England but in all Christendome that religion was in the chiefest articles professed And yet bicause it is here brought with the suretie of M. Hardings warrant we wyll speake a little of this negatiue It is boldlye auouched of manye popish Priestes that Christianitie was placed here by Augustine which is called the Englishe Bishop He was sent from Rome and landed in the Ile of Tenet in Kent an 596. But it is alredy shewed that we had the faith of Christ long before Then what did Augustine here I will tell thée Christian Reader and I wyll tell thée that which M. Harding shall nener be able to confute He did first perswade the King and Quéene not to enforce his new religion but to leaue it fréely to men to follow if they would Afterward being made Bishop of Canterburie by consent of a Synode he thrust into that Church altars vestiments images Masses challices crosses candlesticks ▪ sensers banners processions holy water holy bread funerals tithes and such other stuffe whych before that time was neuer séene in England Then he changed their kéeping of Easter day taught them manye ceremonies in Baptisme and when he coulde not bring all men to his diet he moued great persecution against such as defended the libertie of the Church Then he receiued from Rome relickes of diuers Saintes buylt a Monasterie to Saint Peter wrought many fained miracles and so at the last he died about the yeare of our Lord .610 Now for further proofe of this that Augustine marred and not made our religion it is verye probable that we neuer receiued our faith from Rome but from the East Church First bicause we vntill Augustine came among vs kept our Easter after the manner of the Gréeke Church Now it is well knowen what mortall hatred there was for that matter so that he which was enstructed of the one would in no wyse vse the order of the other Agayne when Augustine should be sent vnto them he came backe for feare and the Britaines would not receaue him nor acknowledge anye authoritie of Pope Gregorie ouer them Which sure they would neuer haue done if they had receaued theyr fayth from Rome Thus much then followeth we had the faith of the Gréeke Church without all superstitious ceremonies of the Church of Rome and so it is manifest our bishops were then of Maister Caluines profession in the whole substaunce of their religion And so is this other negatiue of M. Harding prooued a lye This I haue sayd the more at large bicause M. Hardyng and his fellowes woulde haue vs beleue that our faith came from the Pope and Dan Augustine
doth not direct your goyngs and therefore you make suche often reaches at hatred What preiudice should Maister Iuell bring vnto your cause which of it selfe is weake and of all Godly men forsaken What harme vnto your person whose returne should be his exceding ioye and whose obstinacy is the encrease of his commendations Bicause say you in the person of an other he putteth you in remembrance from whence you be fallen Why M. Harding are you offended to heare of your euyll doyng Uerilye the wise man sayth He that refuseth instruction despyseth his own soule But what speaketh this person whom you meane vnto M. Harding not long since c. O custome of euill speaking what a pleasure doost thou bring vnto the euill disposed person We haue hearde often of Maister Iuells raiâ—inges and scoffings euery leafe of his vncourteous dealing a long common place of his bitter kinde of writing After so much a doo seing there will be required some proofe he séeketh busylye and when he can finde none he maketh the greatest leape though there be many very wyde that is in the reioinder euen out of this preface quite ouer the Replie in to the conclusion and there he hath found a poore man which asketh a question which hath set him in these fiery passions what is there in such manner dealing but either singular impudeÌ„ce or extreme foly Beare yet with him good Reader Barre him of these leapings and all his pastime is done But let vs heare what Maister Harding can aunswere to this poore man Thus Maister Iuell maketh him speake vnto Maister Harding Not long since you taught them of our side the Gospell euen in like sorte and fourme as it is tought now Here Maister Harding bicause he can make no good aunswere thinketh it not amisse to stop this pore mans mouth with a litle sophestrie You taught vs sayth this poore man the Gospell By this saith Maister Harding you doo vs to wéete what your gospell is and wherin it consisteth Blame not this poore man though he can say no more I haue béen a scholar almost this twentye yeares and yet I can not sée what this aunswere meaneth They must be Lâ—nces eyes and such as can looke through milstones that can sée this conclusion very déepe cogitations must go so far into sentences and a man had néede of a warme nightcap that should folow them But seyng we can get no better aunswer the poore mans saying shall stande still for true and Maister Hardings obscure gatherings shall verifie the coÌ„mon saying that it is better to saye nothing then to holde ones peace In the ende Maister Harding denieth that he euer spake these woordes wherby he doth empayre his credit in all other matters Let the Christian reader for his contentation when time and occasion may serue enquire of any that then liued in Oxâ—orde This simple way may not countervaile so many witnesses Hardyng ¶ To answere to the matter simply and truly as before God I will not here for my better excuse accuse the will of the Prince in whose dayes I was brought vp in learning the ernest endeuour of the Gouernours then being to satisfie his desires the crueltye of the lawes the yeelding of all in generall except a very fewe the great silence of preachers that then durst not teach necessaries the common ignorance of men Omittingâ— all these which I might bring for some part of excuse I am content for truthes sake freely to accuse my selfe In certaine points I was deceiued I confesse by Caluin Melancthon and a few others as you by them and sundrye others are nowe deceiued in many Dering Now he commeth to the simple and true aunswere for hys turning but he turneth so many members in one sentence that he turneth all sense quite out of the periode Perhappes he thinketh he speakes to the poore man againe therefore he speaketh in riddles Or if it bee not so the truth I trowe breaketh out And againe he accuseth the iniquitie of those dayes but his darke hart cannot abide the light straight he starteth backe againe and is content to take the fault vnto him selfe bicause all other excuses are vayne and vngodlye And as well as he can in so great a storme he runneth vnder the couering of S. Augustines auctoritie but it may not helpe him sithe their turnings are not like Saint Augustine turned from traditions vnto scripture but he turneth from the scripture vnto traditions Againe S. Augustine turned from the vayne trust that he had in man vnto the sure confidence that is fixed in Christ. But he is slidden away euen from Christ to sée how farre men haue established hys aucthoritie This is true as his own conscience doth iudge and hys writings doe testifie when vnder the name of the Churche he gâ—eth from the woord of God Therefore is his turning neyther modestie nor repentance but a shamelesse falling away and an obstinate forsaking of God God giue him grace herein to iudge him selfe that in the day of wrath he be not iudged of the Lord. Harding ¶ Now as to confesse this much truth requireth so to acknowledge your false reportes wisdome forbiddeth Them would I haue also not let to coÌ„fesse if I wist God were delited with our lies Wher then you say I taught your Gospell euen in like sorte and forme in al respects as it is taught now that I deny vtterly In dede I hobde and roued sometimes but your pricks I euer tooke to be to farre for me to shoote at Neither trulye coulde I see the marke that you M. Iuell and suche as you are shot at it was so farre of and therefore I stoode out and shot smaller game Dering Now after this confession made you go as you say from the truth to your wisdome and tel vs in what sorte you preached the Gospell You say you hobde and roued but you neuer shot at any certaine marke Why were you one of Baals prophets that haulted on both sides that woulde serue both God and Mammon too That eate meate with the Gentiles and yet dissemble it before the Iewes The waueryng is vnconstant in all his wayes and bicause thou art neyther hoate nor colde I will spue thée out of my mouth sayth the Lord This hobbing was the cause that you fell agayne to your vomit And this rouing euer since made your shooting vncertaine You could not sée the marke that M. Iuell shootes at the vale of colde deuotion was before your eyes You looked euen now like an Eagle in the poore mans question But nowe you haue oyled your blere eyes that you can not sée Christ. God lighten your eyes that you sléepe not styll in death You stoode without you say and shot smaller game in déede you shot such game as was not worth your labour At the imaginations of mans brayne you roued so muche vncertainly that you shoote yet now beating the ayre Therfore haue you eyes and sée not c. There be
Apostle commeth iudgement Here is no colour of shift least except they wil say after death that is when the generall daie of iudgement shall bée And if this might serue then had they somewhat to saye But S. Iohn hath preuented such wrestinge of scriptures After death as he teacheth is immediatly as soone as we be with God for this he writeth Blessed ar the deade which dye in the Lorde from henceforth saith the spirit they rest from their labour No labour abideth any more for them after death immediatlye they are receiued into ioy and their workes doe follow them And this present ioy of the godlye is likewyse specified where the same Apostle writeth that an hundred fourty and foure thousand did stande with the lambe in y e mount Sion meaning the elect which wer w t Christ in his kingdome An hundreth such other places there are in the scripture which testifie of our estate after death and do quite ouerthrowe the Popes purgatory Nowe for the better contentation of the Reader it were worth the labour to answere to al those places of the scripture in which they make so many blinde gesses at purgatory The places are Math. 5.26 c. 12.32 c. 18 34. Luc. 12.59.16.19 l. Co. 3.15 Phil. 2.10 Apo. 5.15 But read these places who list in the feare of God and true desire of knowledge he can by no imaginations haue one gesse at purgatory and yet for the establishing of such a doctrine it had bene requisite they could haue shewed euen the name for the interpretation of other men be they neuer so olde We may saye with the Apostle Euery man aboundeth in his own vnderstanding but no man knoweth the thinges that are Gods saue God alone and his woorde if we will not be deceiued must be our onelye guider But they haue one place 2. Mach. 12.44 in plaine words that it is good to pray for the dead if that booke be of able autority We rede likewise of one Razias an Elder of Ierusalem which first ran vpon his own sworde and when he missed of his stroke he ranne to the top of the wall and threwe him selfe downe among the multitude and yet hauing life in him went to the top of an highe rocke and pulled out his owne bowels and threwe them among the enimies and for this doing he is commended So by the authoritye of the same booke a man maye kill himselfe which Maister Harding him selfe I trowe will not constantly affirme yet this being scripture it might not be doubted Againe the same author saith If I haue done well and as the story requireth it is the thing that I desired But if I haue spoken slenderly and basely it is that I coulde These Iffes and Andes are not of that spirit which hath written the scriptures Thus doubting of his own ability besemeth not the holy ghost Beside this the gréeke in the same place is so corrupt that scarce any sense coulde be made of it And Ioseph ben Gorion out of whom that story semeth to be gathered in the same place doth quite leaue out this praying for the dead But it maye be that in those dayes some ignoraunt Iewes vpon an vnwyse deuotion did thinke it good to praye for the deade and likewise to praye againe vnto them that they would helpe vs. Which if it were so by such meanes this place might come into the Machab. And that some did thinke thus thoughe they were alwayes otherwyse instructed it appereth by one manifest place which is read in Philo Iudeus where he writeth the death of Debora who made a godly exhortatiō to hir people before she dyed For afterward they should finde no repentaunce There some made aunswere vnto hir Ecce nunc mater moreris ora itaque pro nobis post recessum tuum erit anima tua memor nostri in sempiternum Praye for vs after thy departure and let thy soule be mindefull of vs for euer To whom Debora maketh aunswere Adhuc viuens homo potest orare et pro se pro filijs suis post finē autem non poterit exorare nec memor esse alicuius yet while a man is liuing he may pray for him selfe and for his children but whan he is deade he can neyther intreate nor be mindeful of any And it followeth your similitude then shal be like the starres of heauen which are now manifest in you Hereby we sée what iudgement the common people mighte haue in such matters And yet howe the godly did otherwise instruct them reade this place thou shalt finde it so plaine that no wrangling may shift it of but nedes we must confesse that it teacheth vs that we ought neither to praye vnto saintes to help vs neyther yet agayne can we helpe them when they be gone Wherby it appeareth what manner of archer Maister Harding hath ben that could not shoote at so plaine a marke But he did shoote at his own dreames and so he lighted on Purgatorie Yet there follow a great many of markes at the which M. Hardyng could neuer shoote home The first is that the masse and our Communion is one wyth that marke sayth he I was neuer acquaynted Hys loose without doubt is very ill or he shooteth to low a compasse or else he draweth not close For M. Stapleton that shooteth with the same bow and arrowes hitteth this marke euen at the first The Masse and the Communion saith he duelye ministred is all one and it is folly to thinke any contradiction betwéene the Communion and the Masse Thus it appeareth M. Harding is a verye wrangler that wyll not shoote at that marke which his owne fellowes finde An other marke that M. Harding could neuer shoote at is this that Eucharistia doth signifie not the Sacrament but common bread I maruail he could neuer shoote at this marke For sith he began first that babling aunswere to M. Iuels learned Challenge he hath alwaye bene hobbing among those marks wher this is one though he neuer shot at the selfe same yet hath he seldome shot but at such like For it is a marke of slaundering and a marke of lying at whych marke as well in this Reioynder as other where M. Harding most commonly doth shoote very nere I neuer said saith he that Eucharistia was common breade but the sacrament This marke I could neuer sée In déede no maruail for who can well sée the thing that is not But you father this saying vpon Maister Iuell which reporte is all togither vntrue and slaunderous and in shootinge at this marke you drawe maruailous cleane and haue good deliuery be it prickes or rouers you haue measured the ground so oft that you knowe what to shoote But I pray you M. Harding where sayth M. Iuell thus What be his woordes Wher are they to be foūd Thinke you notwithstanding your oft vntrue demeanour that you can discredite your aduersary vpon your bare word The
cause why he was conuerted or rather peruerted And in that he is not constant as he was before in his Religion the grace of God saith he and the study of more matures yeares did instruct me otherwise This cause doth sufficiently confute it selfe For Maister Harding chaunged his Religion in seuen dayes in which he had not many yeares to study ▪ nor yet quiet time to deliberate Héere followeth a little iesting at the name of Ministers and vngodly Metaphores to the defacing of their preaching all not woorth the aunswere And in déede who so would scoure away all that froth from his writinges should leaue him in most places nothing but white paper Harding ¶ What I should haue done and how farre I should haue gone in case Gods prouidence had not changed that state he sawe to whom nothing is vnsene And perhaps in continuance of time I should haue ioined further with you except his speciall grace had called me backe and seuered me from you What soeuer in those dayes I thought or said amisse our Lorde forget and forgeue Verye like it is had not the condition of that time bene altered that I shoulde haue thought and said worse then I did and haue bene carried away further But nowe I see what great cause I haue to reioyce and thank God who vsed the change of the time as an occasion and meane whereby to chaunge me vnto the better For whiles I feared to suffer that I would not by new condition of the time I was compelled to seeke the truth which before I knew not and willingly to holde that which before I refused Dering In this paragraphe before Maister Harding saith that the grace of God more mature yeares did better instruct him But he had little hope to finde many yeares in seuen dayes therfore now he saith that Gods especial grace the change of the Prince did change him also So y t whether of both did helpe many yeares in a weeke or the change of a Prince he hath called God to witnes to a lye But let it be the change of the time did change Maister Harding yet let him not ascribe it vnto God which is his owne euill doing Surely for the Minister to turne sodenly with the worlde it is an vnwéented kinde of calling and such as the holy Ghost hathe left none in example But you defend your selfe with S. Aug. saying True it is a man may be brought vnto Christ through feare of punishment else why serueth authority Yet as this liked you in S. Aug. to know it might be done so may it please you also in y e same Epistle to know how it is done S August saith ac sic ista cogitatione docibiles facti non in calumnijs et fabulis humanis sed in diuinis libris promissam per omnes gentes inuenirent eccleziam that by this due consideration of earthlye punishment we being made apt for instruction not in mens wranglinges and deuyses but in the heauenly bookes we shoulde finde the church promysed through all the world This péece Maister Harding hath concealed For in his turn he did not séeke for the church in Gods Scriptures but in mens tradicions Therfore he is little helped by S. Augustine Nay he doth rather shew y e cause why Maister Harding is now so obdurate quam multos saith he obduratae consuetudinis graue vinculū colligabat how many hath the heauy yoake of olde custome tyed togither that it might be fulfilled in them the froward seruant shall not be amended with the woorde of God so that he not clayming his turne by the aduertisement of the scriptures but cleauyng fast vnto olde custome hath deliuered him selfe from thys helpe of S. Augustine Héere he maketh a long discourse of his priuate doings impertinent to his priuate Masse which I can not meddle with bicause I know them not Harding ¶ If I may be beleued telling that of my selfe which I my self God know best this is the truth My errour was of ignoraunce not of malice My vnderstanding was obscured my will was not of selfe purpose peruerted Wherin I offended it was not so much through malice of will as through want of skill I did not with animositie as S. Augustine calleth it mainteine what lyked my priuate choise but ignorauntly I receiued what guilefully the condition of the time obtruded Dering Here M. Harding vpon better aduise assigneth yet agayne the third cause of hys turning He hath nowe forsaken better instruction by mature yeares he taketh holde no more of the chaunge of the Prince but for his more commendation saith he was turned by prayer I trow by saying our Ladies Mattines this cause bicause it is the best cause he setteth it out with his best maner of writing and with the dissolute figure sometyme speaking ryme sometyme hauing no reason he concludeth this third cause that is héere alleadged But what néedeth this any long aunswer If his errour wer ignorance how got he so spéedy knowledge If his vnderstāding wer obscured how was it so quickly lightned What bookes red he who was his teacher Hath he found so many miracles for his priuate Masse that he woulde haue vs wéene he was turned by a Miracle Yet he saith it soothly that his offence was not so muche through malice of wyll as through want of skyll Now verily M. Harding this like falling figure falleth in this place quite out of order This other repetition about the sayings of our sauiour Christ séeke and you shall finde c. hath preatie turning in wordes but M. Harding in hys lyfe hath turned himselfe quite from them Hardyng ¶ That I proceded no farther in errour it was the goodnes of God who with his mercifull hand stayde me backe from running to the extremitie that you be run vnto Dering Nowe M. Harding can shewe no good cause of his falling awaye in to the power of darknesse it liketh him to gesse what brought him so farre into the kingdome of light For séeing by his hobs and rouers his hart was not vpright toward God he can not iudge why he was estemed such a preacher of his Gospell But this gessing at his going forwarde is as vayne as the causes of his returne haue bene found vnconstant Satan can turne him selfe in to an Angell of light to make his Ministers thinke they doe God good seruice The idolatrous Israelites would séeme to séeke God daylye euen as a nation that did righteously and had not forsaken the statutes of their God So M. Harding would faine haue his turning for his more humilitie and hys suddaine reuolting for his further well doing But what néedeth so busie searche in so playne a matter 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 his own hobbing and double dealing made God giue him ouer to his old idolatries out of which before of his frée mercie he had drawen him So let M. Harding séeke no farther cause His iniquities haue seperated betwene him and his
God God for his mercies sake once turne him agayne For now he doth nothing but hatch Cockatrices egges and weaueth the Spyders webbe Harding ¶ You seme to maruail how I became so perfite a Catholike in so shorte a time As you say I preached the contrary many yeares wherin you say vntruly For neither preached I ful two yeares and that not many Sermons neither was I priest before Quene Maries time So you pretend it to be an impossible thing that in seuen daies for of that tyme you speake more then once I should reade ouer all the Scriptures Counsels and Doctours as though a man by Gods speciall grace could not be turned from errour to truth whose hart was not stubbornlye set to mainteine a part nor yet drowned in manye errours vnlesse he first read ouer all bookes of Diuinitye What meane you M. Iewell Wil you appoint God a tracte of tyme to work in when he toucheth the hart of maÌ„ S. Ambrose could haue taught you to iudge otherwise wher he saith Nescit tarda moliminae sancti spiritus gratia Dering Now Maister Harding in a long discourse commeth again to his former matter and as the Poet saith sopitos suscitat ignes stirreth a broade againe the fire that was well raked vp and telleth vs a new cause of his tourning and that was Gods secrete inspiration and therto alleadgeth the sayings of Ambrose and Leo and the exampels of Elizeus Paul and Mathew As touching the grace of the holy Ghost I must needes confesse it néedeth no protracte of time It may make in one moment of a plough man a Prophet of a persecutour an Apostle of a Publicane a Disciple But shall Maister Harding therefore think that by the same spirit he was made of a preacher an apostata And for further proofe of this he telleth vs when he was made priest as though he had taken the charecter of the beast and fallen downe and worshipped hir by the mocion of the holy Ghost Better had Maister Harding stoode to his other causes that longer yeares gaue him more vnderstanding or the change of the Prince chaunged him or else he was conuerted by prayer then to make the holye ghost author of his euill doing But O miserable state of that man that shoulde be plunged thus in errours and yet séeth not his sinnes Such confidence had the Iewes in al their fornications that being stirred to repentaunce would deny their euill doing and saye wherein shall we returne Harding ¶ And why doe you charge me with the suddaine change of seuen dayes Was it not one whole yeare after king Edwardes death before I came in pulpit And did I not of myne owne accorde without all compulsion or request of others simply and fully acknowledge and confesse my former ouersight and errour Was not all the vniuersity of Oxforde witnesse hereof O Maister Iewel I doubt not but by that my voluntary and humble confession I haue put the Diuell to silence thorow the same He shall not haue power to obiect vnto me myne errour before Christ our Iudge in that dreadfull daye Dering Now least for all this trifling we shoulde accuse M. Harding of rashnes in fine he bringeth a whoole yeares deliberation But Lord what manner of defence is this After so long reasoning to proue nothing Was all this defence of a sodaine chaunge to excuse the thing hee neuer committed This was the first cloke for his turning If it shadowed it well why did he cast it of If it did not why doth he take it now againe Cast it away Maister Harding if you be happy your tourning and all and yet againe turne once for the better you haue not put the Diuell to silence with this turning our Lord deliuer you from him It is he that walketh through drye places and when he can finde no rest returneth thither againe from whence he was driuen out and as thoughe he had found you sweapt and garnished so after made his ingredience in your seuen folde wickednes You say Maister Iuels malice doeth séeme to passe the malice of the deuill But it is ynough for the Disciple to be as his Maister is and the seruaunt as the Lord. If they haue called the Maister of the house Beelzebub how much more them of his houshold The authority here brought of S. Cyprian is to little purpose But had you better considered that Epistle you would with better aduice haue spared the reuerence of that good Bishop You know what his name doth signifie And S. Cyprian saith this alwayes is the worke of the deuill that he should be lye the seruauntes of God and with false opinions gloriosum nomen infamet slaunder their glorious name that they which are very shining in the testimony of their owne conscience might be defiled with other mens reporte Wel God graunt vnto you according to Maister Iuells prayer Harding ¶ But what meant you Maister Iewel of all men thus vncourteously and with all verye falsly to deale with me Dering After all these deuices in defence of his owne dooing he fashioneth a new inuention against his aduersary and in long examination of his whole lyfe he hath espied in him once a little going back and of that would faine make a couer to hyde his owne apostasy And that this péece of the Epistle may be all lyke in it selfe he maketh the first entry with an open lye and saith Maister Iuell hath reported falsly of hys turning But the world is witnesse both of Maister Iuels saying and Maister Hardings doing But he goeth forwarde and asketh Maister Iuell this question Are not you one M. Iohn Iuell that once subscribed to certaine articles c. Why bringeth M. Harding this This is confessed in his aunswere to Doctour Cole Therfore I graunt Maister Harding it is euen he that when the anointed of the Lorde was taken in your â—ettes vnder whose shadow he shoulde haue ben preserued among the heathen he was scattered among the other shéepe till God turned his hand vpon his little ones to cary forth his name among the Gentiles But marke good Christian reader what this man hath espied in this Bishops lyfe He did once subscribe in S. Maries church in Oxford did not all Christes Disciples once forsake him in Ierusalem Did not Peter dissemble at Antioch Did not Paule shaue his head at Cenchrea did he not circumcise Timothy at Lystra Haue not all the serauntes of God Patriarches Prophets Apostles and martyrs done as much Is this the greatest fault you can laye to that good bishop that for feare of your tyranny he did ones write Iohn Iuel God be praysed that hath so directed y â— course of his seruant and God send vs all his spirit that do professe his Gospel that our liues may so answer our profession Now touching those disputations at Oxforde where Maister Harding saith the vttermost was heard that could be brought on our syde that is one among his other
it is doubtlesse an abhominable lie foreged out of secrecy bicause it should not be coÌ„uinced by witnesse But it shal not be a misse bicause this thing coÌ„meth to question to note what M. Iuell might saye and what the Prince must doe It is not vnknowen what authoritie hath bene giuen vnto the Pope that he hath rule both of heauen and earth and he that taketh one iote of this authoritie from that church is an hereticke And that he may not be iudged as Pope Boniface hath decreed though he drawe innumerable soules headlong into hell and that he hath all knowledge in the closet of his brest that he can dispence against the Apostles and against the old testament and that we must abide the yoke that the Pope layeth vpon vs though it be intollerable and that seate is apostolica sublimitas euen as high as the Apostles and that quicquid statuit quicquid ordinat what soeuer the Pope appointeth what soeuer he ordeineth perpetuo irrefragabiliter obseruandum est it must be obserued for euer without any contradiction Suche blasphemous authority giuen vnto the Pope made that in the time of restoring the Gospell euen good men attributed more vnto the Prince then was conuenient and flatterers more then was to be borne with all as in the time of the sixe articles Bishop Gardiner and his felowes did vnto King Henry the eight when they gaue him authority in the church of God to institute or disanull Lawes as it lyked him best to forbid the mariage of ministers to deny the people the cup in the Lords supper The graunting of such authority is flattery in the subiect the receiuing it presumption in the Prince The church is y e spouse of Christ purchased with his precious bloud and ioyned vnto him euen as a woman vnto hir husbande The Prince is héere a subiect and may set the church no Lawes but as hir heade appointed Christ doth sanctifye his church with the washing of water through the worde that is with baptisme and the preaching out our iustification in his frée mercy if the Prince say it shall be sanctified with crossing and créeping with diredges and Trentalls with holy Breade and holy Water with Pilgrimage and Bonfiers the Prince is rebellious and the Subiect must yéelde his lyfe Then for a briefe conclusion if the Prince wil make any new holynes or forbid the minister to preach y e word that is written or if he will say we shall Prophecie no more at Bethel bicause it is the Kings chapple and bicause it is the kings Courte it lyeth not in his authority Wo be vnto the Prince that shall be so led with errour But if the Princes will doe nothing but she will aske councell at the mouth of God if she will humble hir selfe vnder him as low as the poorest creature in the world if she will set out his glory and â—â—presse the wicked blasphemyes of the honorable if Christ crucified for hir sinnes be alwayes pictured before the eyes of hir soule then shall she runne a happy course and in the end haue a happier garlande If she shoulde héere of enimies hir owne conscience shoulde make hir without feare if all iniquitie should stirre vs to rebellion she should sit vnmoueable The Lord hath placed hir and who is he shall put hir downe She is a good nourse of Christes misticall body and no authority is alone hereof yet in all this supremacy we tye hir vnto the worde of God and as she hath regard vnto hir owne soule in the name of hir God we charge hir not to go beyonde it In this is hir prerogatiue that she can inforce other to this obedience and no man can enforce hir This supremacye Maister Iuell did neuer deny the popish supremacy no good man will grauÌ„t Let it then be contemned wherwith Maister Harding maketh vp this tragedy that we teach one thing at home an other thing abroade After this vsuall inuention he frameth a little Philosophy of his owne and then furthereth it on Epicure wherwith he faineth his comparison Now let the indifferent reader iudge which of these is the wauering man Maister Iuell that in his life hath gone not one hower backe or Maister Harding that many yeares hath preached contrary doctrine Doutlesse had he liued in Seuerus time notwithstanding this long apology his armour shoulde haue ben pulled off and he left naked in token of an apostata and his aduersary commended that in all his lyfe hath ben founde so constant Hardyng ¶ What fault so euer you finde with my chauÌ„ge certaine it is al chaungs be not reproueable He chauÌ„geth wel that chaungeth from euil to good It is a happy chaunge that is made from errour to truth from schisme to vnitie from heresie to right faith from contempt of Religion to the loue of Religion from darkenesse to light from pride to humilitie from pleasing men to study how to please God Who so euer maketh this chaunge he is not to be accompted mutable nor inconstant Dering Hitherto Maister Harding can not deny his turning now least it should preiudice his estimation he thinketh good to commend it true it is he turneth well that turneth for the best it is better to returne then to run alwayes euill but whether you haue made this turne or no it must be tryed not by your worde but by the truth of God The Prophet Dauid doeth aske the question how one shoulde turne aright and doth aunswere him selfe by taking héede vnto Gods worde Now I appeale to Maister Hardings conscience what part the worde of God did worke in his turning he maketh continuall crying out of the church the church but very déepe silence of the worde of God Yet Christ saith heauen and earth shal passe before his word do passe S. Paule saith We may not beleue an Angell that preacheth any other doctrine S. Iames saith It is the word that can saue our soules S. Peter saith It is as sure as the voice of God him selfe that was herd from heauen and what meane these men vnder a vaine title of the church so to neglect it Christ promised to be with his church vntill the latter end of the world but his word is his presence not mans inuentions his Euangelies are our learning not supersticious ceremonies The dayes are now come that we shall say no more the arke of the couenaunt of the Lord but by Christ alone we must make our prayers and by him alone offer vp the sacrifice of praise vnto God that is the fruit of our lippes which confesse his name Therfore if you will make a good turne you must turne to that church which turneth only vnto him and to the simplicity of his Gospell But you haue put on the adulterous attire of straunge intercession and clothed hir selfe with altares and altare clothes with Copes vestimentes Awbes Tunicles Curtaines Sensors Candlestickes Crosses and such other You are
of his 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 béene his own though it be little worth yet it had bene somewhat Now it is altogither borrowed of Budaeus commentaries the vpbraiding of other is a testimonie of his owne arrogancie A manifest proufe all his Gréeke is not much and a great coniecture that much of his diuinitie is out of tables but him selfe knoweth best what he is for this defence of his 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it is no doubt folishe and of so great store he hath made very yll choyse For in this sentence by him alleaged 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 may well signifie enim As touching the worde I graunt sometime in the course of an oration it may be placed onely to adourne the sentence but this happeneth very seldome euen as enim doth in Latine and this vse was only peculiar vnto such as followed the proper phrase of Athens In an interrogation it is often put after y e same sort as in this verse 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth God knowe this or doth he knowe it and will not reuenge it So it is very often found in Plato 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 an non and thus ioyned 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and such other it is not denied but it may signifie nothing but in the beginning of an oration no doubt it is neuer vsed in the beginning of a booke it is very foolish and if Hippolytus had not beene it had neuer béene heard of As likewise I trowe if maister Harding had not béene it should neuer haue béene defended In this doing he could meane nothing but to bleare the peoples eyes They that list may stil think well of his doing but Gods children shall one day forsake his euill doctrine The B. of Saris. He sayth and soothly auoucheth that Antichrist shall be the deuill Harding The .47 vntruth He sayth not so Dering Here I must aduertise the reader for the better discharge of maister Iuels sayings that I haue not read all these newe found olde wryters neyther yet meane I to reade them if other necessitie shall not enforce me so that how to verifie this vntruth plentifully out of y e Author neither I know neither is the labour requisite onely Maister Harding that maketh this vntruth giueth testimonye sufficient that the vntruth is his own In his Reioinder thus he doth alleage Hippolytus wordes Antichrist shall be a deuill incarnate in the shape of man What troweth M. Harding is there any difference betwéene the deuill and a deuill incarnate or is it not shamelesse ignorance to affirme eyther of Antichrist S. Paule calleth him hominem scelerosum filium perditum the wicked man the sonne of perdition He calleth him a man not as Hippolytus doth a deuill incarnate he sayth his comming shall be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 according to the operation and strength of Sathan Then it shall not be Sathan himselfe What may we iudge of this Hippolytus that is so ignorant in the scriptures or what may we iudge of M. Harding that can abide his Hippolytus which should teach that Antichrist should be a deuill incarnate He hath no true zeale vnto the scriptures The. B. of Saris. He sayth that he shall builde vp the temple at Ierusalem Harding The .48 vntruth He sayth not so Dering Hippolytus as maister Harding reporteth sayth thus Antichrist shall builde vp a Temple in Ierusalem M. Iuell sayth the Temple Here be two very ignoraunt vntruthes both made by turning the into a for the may be expressed in y e Gréeke but a can not So make the best of it these vntruthes are but gesses and so much the more shamelesse bicause they can haue no assurance But what if they were true betwene a deuill and the deuill a church and the church when both are lyes what skilleth it whether are reported The B. of Saris. If he should builde vpon the worde pontifices Bishops then all priestes shall stand backe Harding The .49 vntruth It follovveth not Dering Thou hast heard before christian reader many vntruthes that were not worth reconing now here followeth one without shew of wit or vnderstanding and yet it is set out to the vtmost as if maister Harding had here an especiall aduauntage He solaceth his heauy spirit with many foolish questions and asketh when Maister Iuell will be ashamed of his foolish conclusions and of his peuish arguments and in the end he maketh maister Iuel to reason thus Christ shall call Bishops to his kingdome ergo he shall call no priestes If all these mery toyes be applied in season then let maister Harding haue the victorie If this be maister Iuels argument then let this one go for an vntruth But if this sport be disgraced for want of truth and these pretie questions nothing worth bycause they stande vpon a lie then this vntruth is aunswered and M. Hardings pleasant writing is proued foolish Read the Replie thou shalt sée howe maister Iuell goeth about to enterpret Hippolytus wordes and sayth they are not to be vnderstanded directly as they lie For if maister Harding should builde vpon the verye worde then bicause the mencion is made of Bishops all common priestes should be excluded But this shal not be so Therfore we must not take the wordes as they lie Nowe iudge whether Maister Iuell do make this foolish argument or if he doe not whie is M. Harding so malapert without occasion The B of Saris. If he make reconing of this worde dayly where shall the Pope and Cardinals stande that scarce sacrifice once in the yeare Harding The .50 vntruth These Cardinals say Masse most dayes and this Pope euery day Dering Their kingdome is falling therefore bylike they vnderprop it with so many Masses But if it be so Lorde how hath that adulterous citie multiplied hir whordomes Well may the preachers say ouer hir as the Prophets ouer Ierusalem Wherfore should you be striken any more The whole head is sicke and the whole hart is heauie There is nothing in hir but woundes and swelling and sores full of corruption The B. of Saris. But the meaning of Hippolytus seemeth be these that all faithfull people in this respect be priests and bishops like as Saint Peter also calleth them Harding The .51 vntruth It seemeth not so Dering Why séemeth it not so bicause sayth maister Harding neyther I take it so nor any other Catholike But Maister Iuell thinketh so and so do all good christians and therefore it séemeth so This is a proper vntruth Harding The .52 vntruth Saint Peter calleth not the people by that name Dering Now sure good reader truth among these men is perished and gone out of theyr mouthes Saint Peter sayth maister Harding nameth not the people bishops yet he nameth them priestes Maister Harding graunteth now if it were no otherwise maister Iuell saide true bicause he nameth them priests But Saint Peter nameth them by an higher name and therfore confesse that they may be named bishops He calleth
go I think to no mortall man to be more strengthned The B. of Saris. It pleaseth M. Hard. to alledge the one end and conceale the other Harding The .76 vntruthe The .10 diuis I conceale not the other Dering If M. Harding doe alleage bothe these ends of the Sacraments that is To ioyne vs vnto God to ioyne vs one with an other then let this be vntrue if he do not then for my pore skil me thinketh he concealeth it The B. of Saris. M. Harding saith the Communion signifieth not the Communicating of many together Harding The .77 vntruthe I say not so Dering Héere M. Harding and M. Stapleton do agrée so iumpe in one vntruthe that it appeareth euidently their religion is either very vniforme or at least they haue bene both instructed in one schole Thus saith M. Harding The Cōmunion is not so called bicause many or as M. Iuel teacheth the whole congregatiō receiued together in one place These words M. Iuel reporteth thus He saith the Cōmunion is not so called of the Communicating of many together This is vntrue saith M. Har. I say not so this is vntruth saith M. Sta. he saith not so I require héere of thée good Christian Reader to viewe the woords well and finde out any fault if thou canst Surely I thinke thou canst finde none like as sure it is M. Iuel did thinke of none But these two pair of Egles eyes what haue they espied Forsothe wher M. Harding saith it is not called the Communion of Communicating togither in one place M. Iuel thus reporteth it it is not called the Communion of Communicating togither and leaueth quite out in one place which maketh all the matter this distinction of Communicating together and Communicating together in one place bicause it is somewhat straunge these men should haue done well to haue proued it by some Doctor Sure M. Harding if he may goe for a Doctor he teacheth vs plainely in an other place that to Communicate together is to Communicate in one place For thus he writeth but that they should Communicate together that is to say in one place that we deny By this Doctor it appeareth that together and in one place is all one and then this can be no vntruth The B. of Saris. How be it in plaine speche it is not the receiuing of the Sacrament that worketh our ioyning with God Harding The .78 vntruthe The worthy receiuing worketh this effect Dering Doth it so Are we not ioyned to God before we eate the Sacrament S. Paule saith Elegit nos in ipso He hath chosen vs in Christ before the foundations of the worlde were laid muche more are we his before we receiue the sacrament Concerning sacraments the same Apostle sayth of Abraham Signum accepit circumcisionis c. After he receiued the signe of Circumcision as the seale of the righteousnesse of y e faith which he had when he was vncircumcised And shall we be taught now that they be no more seales and witnesses but causes of our iustification God kéepe vs from suche spiders that gather poison of so swéete floures And that thou maist take the more héede of this mannes doctrine I must first tell thee that for proofe of it he bringeth not one worde of Scripture but pretendeth the aucthority of Chrysostome and Cyril I would answere the aucthoritie for suche Doctors saue that the labor were long and not necessary For I will declare out of the Scripture that the doctrine is hereticall and thereby thou shalt be satisfied and maist further imagine that these holy Fathers names are too muche abused In this vntruthe of M. Hardings he teacheth two points of Doctrine the one that by and thorow the worthy receiuing of the Sacrament we be ioyned vnto God the other that the Sacraments are not only seales and pledges but also they containe grace Now let vs sée how these two Articles agrée with the worde of God And first whither the receiuing of the Sacrament do ioyne vs vnto God and as M Harding saith putteth also into vs life immortall Our Sauior Christ in the Gospell after S. Iohn doth often tel his Disciples how they are made one with God yet in that holy Gospel as in all other scriptures there is not one worde that telleth vs we be made one with him by receiuing the Sacrament But contrarily by plaine words we be taught what vertue this Sacrament hath that it is onely a signe of that grace which we haue receiued as shall appeare héereafter In the sixthe chapter of Iohn where Christ reproueth the fleshly hearers of his worde and calleth them to a true beliefe in him the Iewes make this answere What signe shewest thou then that we may sée it Our Fathers did eat Manna c. Héere is first shewed what the Iewes thought of Manna not that by it they were ioyned to God or receiued grace but that it was a signe a token and a pledge of their frée election how they were a peculiar people vnto God This Manna being a figure of this Sacrament of the body and bloud of Christ now lest vnto the Churche Christ maketh this aunswere I am the bread of life he that commeth to me shall not hunger and he that beleueth in me shall not thirst for euer By this we learne that to beleue in Christ is to haue euerlasting life and as Manna was a signe to the Israelites so the Communion of the body and blood of Christ is a signe to vs that this promisse shall be made sure It is written in the Prophet and all thy children shall be taught of the Lord of this saying our sauior Christ teacheth vs how we be ioyned vnto him and sayth No man can come to me except the father which sent me draw him And to this ende it is written by the Prophet Ieremie After those dayes sayeth the Lord I will put my law in their inward parts and write it in their hearts and I will be their God and they shalbe my people Of this we learne that if we come vnto Christ the Father must draw vs if we be his people he must be our inward teacher if we be vnited vnto him he must first come and dwell in our hearts whereby it is plaine that we must be first engrafted in Christ before we can worthely receiue his holy Sacramentes Furthermore it foloweth in S. Iohn he that eateth my fleshe and drinketh my bloud dwelleth in me and I in him Therefore we must dwell in him and he in vs or we can not eate his body and drink his bloud And the wicked which dwel not in him can not receiue him Again where our Sauior Christ doeth teache very largely how we be ioyned vnto him and become one with him euen as his Father and he is one he sheweth that this societie doeth come vpon vs of his Fathers frée mercy apprehended by Faithe of his woorde And for