others and contrarily what one calls Vice an other calls Vertue as their present Affections lead them B. Methinks you should have placed amongst the Vertues that which in my Opinion is the greatest of all Vertues Religion A. So I have though it seems you did not observe it But whether do we Digress from the way we were in B. I think you have not Digressed at all for I suppose your purpose was to acquaint me with the History not so much of those Actions that past in the time of the late Troubles as of their Causes and of the Counsels and Artifices by which they were brought to pass There be divers men that have Written the History out of whom I might have Learned what they did and somewhat also of the Contrivance but I find little in them of it I would ask therefore since you were pleased to enter into this Discourse at my request be pleased also to inform me after my own method And for the danger of Confusion that may arise from that I will take care to bring you back to the place from whence I drew you for I well remember where it was A Well then to your Question concerning Religion Inasmuch as I told you that Vertue is comprehended in Obedience to the Laws of the Commonwealth whereof Religion is one I have placed Religion amongst the Vertues B. Is Religion then the Law of a Common-wealth A. There is no Nation in the World whose Religion is not Established and receives not its Authority from the Laws of that Nation It is true that the Law of God receives no obedience from the Laws of Men but because men can never by their own Wisdom come to the knowledge of what God hath spoken and Commanded to be Observed nor be obliged to obey the Laws whose Author they know not they are to acquiess in some humane Authority or other So that the Question will be Whether a man ought in matter of Religion that is to say when there is question of his Duty to God and the King to rely upon the Preaching of their Fellow-Subjects or of a Stranger or upon the Voice of the Law B. There is no great difficulty in that point for there is none that Preach here or any where else at least ought to Preach but such as have Authority so to do from him or them that have the Sovereign Power So that if the King give us leave you or I may as lawfully Preach as them that do and I believe we should perform that Office a great deal better than they that preached us into Rebellion A. The Church Morals are in many points very different from these that I have here set down for the Doctrine of Vertue and Vice and yet without any conformity with that of Aristotle for in the Church of Rome the principle Vertues are to obey their Doctrine though it be Treason and that is to be Religious to be beneficial to the Clergy that is their Piety and Liberality and to believe upon their word that which a man knows in his Conscience to be false which is the Faith that they require I could name a great many more such Points of their Morals but that I know you know them already being so well versed in the cases of Conscience written by their School-men who measure the Goodness and Wickedness of all Actions by their Congruity with the Doctrine of the Roman Clergy B. But what is the Moral Phylosophy of the Protestant Clergy in England A. So much as they shew of it in their Life and Conversation is for the most part very good and of very good example much better than their Writingâ— B. It happens many times that men live honestly for fear who i◠〈◊〉 had Power would live according to their own Opinions that is if their Opinions be not right Unrighteously A. Do the Clergy in England pretend as the Pope does or as the Presbyterians doe to have a right from God immediately to Govern the King and his Subjects in all points of Religion and Manners if they do you cannot doubt but that if they had Number and Strength which they are never like to have they would attempt to attain that Power as the others have done B. I would be glad to see a System of the present Morals written by some Divine of good Reputation and Learning and of the late King's party A. I think I can recommend unto you the best that is extant and such an one as except a few passages that I mislike is very well worth your reading the Title of it is The whole Duty of Man laid down in a plain and familiar way And yet I dare say that if the Presbyterian Ministers even those of them that were the most dilligent Preachers of the late Sedition were to be tried by it they would go near to be found Not Guilty He has divided the Duty of Man into three great Branches His Duty to God to Himself and to his Neighbour In his Duty to God he puts the acknowledgment of him is his Essence and his Attributes and in believing of his Word his Attributes are Omnipotence Omniscience Infiniteness Justice Truth Mercy and all the rest that are found in Scripture Which of these did not those Seditious Preachers acknowledge equally with the best of Christians The Word of God are the Books of Holy Scripture received for Câ—nonical in England B. They receive the Word of God but 't is according to their own Interpretation A. According to whose Interpretation was it received by the Bishops and the rest of the Loyal party but their own He puts for another Duty Obedience and Submission to God's Will Did any of them nay did any Man living do any thing at any time against God's Will B. By God's Will I suppose he means there his revealed Will that is to say his Commandments which I am sure they did most horribly break both by their Preaching and otherwise A. As for their Actions there is no doubt but all Men are guilty enough if God deal severely with them to be damned and for their Preaching they will say they thought it agreeable to God's revealed Will in the Scriptures if they thought it so it was not Disobedience but Error and how can any man prove they thought otherwise B. Hypocrisy hath this great prerogative above other Sins that it cannot be accused A. Another Duty he sets down is to Honour him in his House that is the Church in his Possessions in his Day in his Word and Sacraments B. They perform this Duty I think as well as any other Ministers I mean the Loyal Party and the Presbyterians have always had an equal care to have Gods House free from profanation to have Tithes duly paid to have the Sabbath day kept Holy the Word Preached and the Lords Supper and Baptism duely Administred But is not the keeping of the Feasts and of the Fasts one of those Duties that belong to
for an example that is for a prejudice in the like case hereafter B. That is worse then the Bill it self and is a plain conâ—ession that their sentence was unjust for what harm is there in the example of just sentences besides if hereafter the like case should happen the sentence is not at all made weaker by such a provision A. Indeed I believe that the Lords most of them were not willing to condemn him of Treason they were awed to it by the clamor of the Common People that came to Westminster crying out Justice Justice against the Earl of Strafford the which were caused to flock thither by some of the House of Commons that were well assured after the Triumphant Welcom of Prinne Burton and Bastwick to put the People into Tumult upon any occasion they desired they were awed unto it partly also by the House of Commons it self which if it desired to undo a Lord had no more to do but to Vote him a Delinquent B. A Delinquent what 's that A Sinner is 't not Did they mean to undoe all Sinners A By Delinquent they meant only a Man to whom they would do all the hurt they could but the Lords did not yet I think suspect they meant to Cashier their whole House B. It 's a strange thing the whole House of Lords should not perceive the ruine of the King's Power or weakening of themselves for they could not think it likely that the People ever meant to take the Soveraignty from the King to give it to them who were few in number and less in Power than so many Commoners because less beloved by the People A. But it seemes not so strange to me for the Lords â—or their personal abilities as they were no less so also were they no more Skilfull in the Publick affairs than the Knights and Burgesses for there is no reason to think that if one that is to day a Knight of the Shire in the Lower House be to morrow made a Lord and a Member of the Higher House is therefore wiser than he was before they are all of both Houses prudent and able Men as any in the Land in the business of their private Estates which requires nothing but dilligence and Natural Wit to Govern them but for the Government of a Commonwealth neither Wit nor Prudence nor Dilligince is enough without infallible rules and the true Science of Equity and Justice B. If this be true it is impossible any Commonwealth in the World whether Monarchy Aristocracy or Democracy should continue long without Change or Sedition tending to change either of the Government or of the Governours A. 'T is true nor have any the greatest Commonwealths in the World been long from Sedition the Greeks had it first their petty Kings and then by Sedition came to be Petty Commonwealths and then growing to be greater Commonwealths by Sedition again became Monarchies and all for want of rules of Justice for the Common people to take notice of which if the People had known in the beginning of every of these Seditions the Ambitious persons could never have had the hope to disturb their Government after it had been once settled for Ambition can do little without hands and few hands it could have if the Common People were as dilligently instructed in the true Principles of their Duty as they are terrified and amazed by Preachers with fruitless and dangerous Doctrines concerning 〈◊〉 Nature of Man's will and many other Phylosophical points that tend not at all to the Salvation of the Soul in the World to come nor to their ease in this life but only to the Discretion towards the Clergy of that Duty which they ought to perform to the King B. For ought I see all the States of Christendom will be subject to those fits of Rebellion as long as the World lasteth A. Like enough and yet the fault as I have said may be easily mended by mending the Universities B. How long had the Parliament now sitten A. It began Novemb. 3. 1640. My Lord of Strafford was Impeached of Treason before the Lords November 12. sent to the Tower Nov. 22. his Trial began March 22. and ended April 13. After his Trial he was voted guilty of High Treason in the House of Commons and after that in the House of Lords May 6. and on the 12 of May Beheaded B. Great expedition But could not the King for all that have saved him by a Pardon A. The King had heard all that passed at his Trial and had declared he was unsatisfied concerning the Justice of their Sentence and I think notwithstanding the danger of his own Person from the sury of the People and that he was counselled to give way to his Execution not only by such as he most relied on but also by the Earl of Strafford himself He would have pardoned him if that could have preserved him from the Tumult raised and countenanced by the Parliament it self for the terrifying oâ— those they thought might favour him and yet the King himself did not stick to confess afterwards that he had done amiss in that he did not rescue him B. 'T was an Argument of a good disposition in the King but I never read that Augustus Caesar acknowledged that he had a fault in abandoning Cicero to the fury of his Enemy Antonius perhaps because Cicero having been of the contrary Faction to his Father had done Augustus no service at all out of favour to him but only out of enmity to Antonius and of love to the Senate that is indeed out of love to himself that swayed the Senate as it is very likely the Earl of Strafford came over to the King's party for his own ends having been so much against the King in former Parliaments A. We cannot safely judge of Men's Intentions but I have observed often that such as feek preferment by their Stubbornness have missed of their aim and on the other side that those Princes that with preferment are forced to buy the Obedience of their Subjects are already or must be soon after in a very weak condition for in a Market where Honour is to to be bought with Stubborness there will be a great many as able to buy as my Lord Strafford was B. You have read that when Hercules fighting with the Hydra had cut of any one of his many Heads there still arose two other Heads in it's place and yet at last he cut them off all A. The Story is told false for Hercules at first did not cut off those Heads but bought them off and afterwards when he saw that did him no good then he cut them off and gâ—t the Victory B. What did they next B. After the first Impeachment of the Earl of Strafford the House of Commons upon December 18. accused the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury also of High Treason that is of a design to introduce Arbitrary Government c. For which he was February 18. sent to the Tower
Howsoever let me know what light we have in this matter from the Roman Histories A. It would be too long and an useless digression to cite all the Antient Authors that speake of the formes of those Common-wealths which were amongst our first Ancesters the Saxons and other Germans and of other Nations from whom we derive the Titles of Honour now in use in England nor will it be possible to derive from them any Arguments of Right but only examples of fact which by the Ambition of Potent Subjects have been oftner unjust then otherwise and for those Saxons or Angels that in Antient times by several Invasions made themselves Masters of this Nation they were not in themselves one Body of a Common-wealth but only a League of Divers Petty German Lords and states such as was the Graecian Army in the Trojan War without other Obligations than that which proceeded from their own fear and weakness nor were these Lords for the most part the soveraigns at home in their own Country but chosen by the People for the Captains of the forces they brought with them And therefore it was not without Equity that when they had conquer'd any part of the Land and made some one of them King thereof the rest should have greater Priviledges than the Common People and Souldiers amongst which Priviledges a man may easily conjecture this to to be one That they should be made acquainted and be of Council with him that hath the Soveraignty in matters of Government and have the greatest and most honourable Offices both in Peace and War But because there can be no Government where there is more than one Soveraign it cannot be inferr'd that they had a Right to oppose the Kings Resolutions by force nor to enjoy those honours and places longer than they should continue good Subjects And we find that the Kings of England did upon every great occasion call them together by the name of Discreet and Wise men of the Kingdom and hear their Councils and make them Judges of all Causes that during their Sitting were brought before them But as he summon'd them at his own pleasure so had he also ever at his pleasure power to Dissolve them The Normans also that Descended from the Germans as we did had the same Customs in this particular and by this means this Priviledge have the Lords to be of your Kings great Council and when they were assembled to be the highest of the Kings Court of Justice continued still after the Conquest to this day But though there be amongst the Lords divers Names or Titles of Honour yet they have their Priviledge by the only name of Baron a name receiv'd from the Antient Gauls amongst whom that name signified the King's Man or rather one of his great Men By which it seems to me that though they gave him Council when he requir'd it yet they had no Right to make War upon him if he did not follow it B. When began first the House of Commons to be part of the King 's great Council A. I do not doubt but that before the Conquest some Discreet Men and known to be so by the King were called by special Writ to be of the same Council though they were not Lords But that is nothing to the House of Commons the Knights of Shires and Burgesses were never called to Parliament for ought that I know till the beginning of Edward the first or the latter end of the Reign of Henry the third immediately after the mis behaviour of the Barons and for ought any man knows were called on purpose to weaken that Power of the Lords which they had so freshly abused Before the time of Henry the third the Lords were Descended most of them from such as in the Invasions and Conquests of the Germans were Peers and Fellow Kings till one was made King of them all and their Tenants were their Subjects as it is at this day with the Lords of France But after the time of Henry the third the Kings began to make Lords in the place of them whose Issue fail'd Titularly only without the Lands belonging to their Title and by that means their Tenants being bound no longer to serve them in the Wars they grew every day less and less able to make a Party against the King though they continued still to be his Great Council And as their Power decreased so the Power of the House of Commons increased But I do not find that they were part of the Kings Council at all nor Judges over other men though it cannot be denied but a King may ask their advice as well as the advice of any other But I do not find that the end of their summoning was to give advice but only in case they had any Petitions for Redress of Grievances to be ready there with them whilst the King had his Great Council about him But neither they nor the Lords could present to the King as a Grievance That the King took upon him to make the Laws to chuse his own Privy Council to raise Money and Souldiers to defend the Peace and Honour of the Kingdom to make Captains in his Army to make Governours of his Castle whom he pleased for this had been to tell the King that it was one of their Grievances that he was King B. What did the Parliament do whilst the King was in Scotland A. The King went in August after which the Parliament September the 8th adjourn'd till the 20th of October and the King return'd about the end of November following in which time the most Seditious of both Houses and which had Designed the Change of Government and to cast off Monarchy but yet had not wit enough to set up another Government in its place and consequently lest it to the Chance of War made a Cabal amongst themselves in which they projected how by seconding one another to Govern the House of Commons and invented how to put the Kingdom by the Power of that House into a Rebellion which they then called a posture of Defence against such Dangers from abroad as they themselves should feign and publish Besides whilst the King was in Scotland the Irish Papists got togeter a great Party with an Intention to Massacre the Protestants there and had laid a Design for the seizing of Dublin Castle October the 20th where the King's Officers of the Government of the County made their Residence and had effected it had it not been Discovered the night before The Manner of the Discovery and the Murders they committed in the Country afterwards I need not tell you since the whole story of it is extant B. I wonder they did not expect provide for a Rebellion in Ireland as soon as they began to quarrel with the King in England For was there any body so ignorant as not to know that the Irish Papists did long for a Change of Religion there as well as the Presbyterians in England Or that in
understanding therefore they were alwayes urging the King to Declarations and Treaties for fear of subjecting themselves to the King in an absolute obedience which increased the hope and courage of the Rebels but did the King little good for the People either understand not or will not trouble themselves with Controversies in writing but rather by his compliance by Messages go away with an opinion That the Parliament was likely to have the Victory in the War Besides seeing that the Penners and Contrivers of those Papers were formerly Members of the Parliament and of another mind and now revolted from the Parliament because they could not bear that sway in the House which they expected Men were apt to think they believed not what they write As for Military Actions to begin at the Head-quarters Prince Rupert took Brinningram a Garison of the Parliaments In July after the King's Forces had a great Victory over the Parliaments near Devizes on Roundway-down where they took 2000 Prisoners four Brass-Pieces of Ordnance 28 Colours and all their Baggage And shortly after Bristol was surrender'd to Prince Rupert for the King and the King Himself marching into the West took from the Parliament many other considerable places But this good fortune was not a little allay'd by His besieging of Glocester which after it was reduc'd to the last gasp was reliev'd by the Earl of Essex whose Army was before greatly wasted but now recruited with Train'd Bands and Apprentices of London B. It seems not only by this but also by many Examples in History That there can hardly arise a long or dangerous Rebellion that has not some such overgrown City with an Army or two in its belly to foment it A. Nay more those great Capital Cities when Rebellion is upon pretence of Grievances must needs be of the Rebel Party because the Grievances are but Taxes to which Citizens that is Merchants whose profession in their private gain are naturally mortal Enemies their onely glory being to grow excessively rich by the wisdom of buying and selling B. But they are said to be of all Callings the most beneficial to the Commonwealth by setting the poorer sort of people on work A. That is to say by making poor people sell their labour to them at their own prizes so that poor people for the most part might get a better Living by working in Bridewell than by spinning weaving and other such labour as they can do saving that by working slightly they may help themselves a little to the disgrace of our Manufacture And as most commonly they are the first Encouragers of Rebellion presuming in their strength so also are they for the most part the first to repent deceiv'd by them that command their strength But to return to the War Though the King withdrew from Glocester yet it was not to flie from but to fight with the Earl of Essex which presently after He did at Newbury where the Battel was bloody and the King had not the worst unless Cirencester be put into the Scale which the Earl of Essex had in his way a few days before surpriz'd But in the North and the West the King had much the better of the Parliament for in the North at the beginning of the year May 29. the Earls of Newcastle and Cumberland defeated the Lord Fairfax who commanded in those Parts for the Parliament at Bramham-moor which made the Parliament to hasten the assistance of the Scots In June following the Earl of Newcastle routed Sir Thomas Fairfax Son to the Lord Fairfax upon Adderton-heath and in pursuit of them to Bradford took and kill'd 2000 Men and the next day took the Town and 2000 Prisoners more Sir Thomas himself hardly escaping with all their Arms and Ammunition and besides this made the Lord Fairfax quit Hallifax and Beverly Lastly Prince Rupert reliev'd Newark besieged by Sir John Meldrum for the Parliament with 7000 Men whereof 1000 were slain the rest upon Articles departed leaving behind them their Arms Bag and Baggage To balance in part this success the Earl of Manchester whose Lieutenant General was Oliver Cromwel got a Victory over the Royalists near Horn-Castle of which he slew 400 took 800 Prisoners and 1000 Arms and presently after took and plundered the City of Lincoln In the West May 16. Sir Ralph Hopton at Stratton in Devonshire had a Victory over the Parliamentarians wherein he took 1700 Prisoners 13 Brass Pieces of Ordnance and all their Ammunition which was 70 Barrels of Powder and their Magazine of their other Provisions in the Town Again at Landsdown between Sir Ralph Hopton and the Parliamentarians under Sir William Waller was fought a fierce Battel wherein the Victory was not very clear on either side saving that the Parliamentarians might seem to have the better because presently after Sir William Waller follow'd Sir Ralph Hopton to Devizes in Wiltshire though to his cost for there he was overthrown as I have already told you After this the King in Person marched into the West and took Exeter Dorcester Barnstable and divers other places and had He not at His Return besieged Glocester and thereby giving the Parliament time for new Levies 't was thought by many He might have routed the House of Commons But the end of this year was more favourable to the Parliament from January the Scots entered England and March the first crossed the Tyne and whil'st the Earl of Newcastle was marching to them Sir Thomas Fairfax gathered together a considerable Party in Yorkshire and the Earl of Manchester from Lyn advanced towards York so that the Earl of Newcastle having two Armies of Rebels behind him and another before him was forced to retreat to York which those three Armies joining presently besieged and these are all the considerable Military Actions in the year 1643. In the same year the Parliament caused to be made a new great Seal the Lord Keeper had carried the former Seal to Oxford Hereupon the King sent a Messenger to the Judges at Westminster to forbid them to make use of it this Meâ—â—enger was taken and condemn'd at a Council of War and Hang'd for a Spie B. Is that the Law of War A. I know not But it seems when a Soldier comes into the Enemies Quarters without address or notice given to the chief Commander that it is presum'd he comes as a Spie The same year when certain Gentlemen at London received a Commission of Array from the King to Levy Men for His Service in that City being discover'd they were Condemn'd and some of them Executed This Case is not unlike the former B. Was not the making of a new great Seal a sufficient proof that the War was raised not to remove evil Councillors from the King but to remove the King Himself from the Government what hope then could there be had in Messages and Treaties A. The Entrance of the Scots was a thing unexpected to the King who was made to believe by continual
the honour of God if it be the Presbyterians fail in that A. Why so They kept some Holy Days and they had Feasts among themselves though not upon the same Days that the Church Ordains but when they thought fit as when it pleased God to give the King any notable Victory and they govern'd themselves in this point by the Holy Scriptures as they pretend to be and can prove they did not believe so B. Let us pass over all other Duties and come to that Duty which we owe to the King and consider whether the Doctrine taught by these Divines which adhered to the King be such in that point as may justifie the Presbyterians that incited the People to Rebellion for that 's the thing you call in Question A Concerning our Duty to our Rulers he hath these words An obedience we must pay either Active or Passive the Active in the Case of all Lawfull Commands that is whenever the Magistrate Commands something which is not contrary to some Command of God we are then bound to Act according to that Command of the Magistrate to do the thing he requires but when he enjoyns any thing contrary to what God hath Commanded we are not then to pay him this 〈◊〉 obedience we may nay we must refuse thus to Act yet here we must be very well assâ—r'd that the thing is so contrary and not pretend Conscience for a Cloak of stubborness we are in that case to obey God rather than men but even this is a season for the Passive obedience we must patiently suffer what he inflicts on us for such refusal and not to secure our selves rise up against him B. What is there in this to give Colour to the late Rebellion A. They will say they did it in obedience to God inasmuch as they did believe it was according to the Scripture out of which they will bring perhaps examples of David and his Adherents that resisted King Saul and of the Prophets afterwards that vehemently from time to time Preached against the Idolatrous Kings of Israel and Judah Saul was their Lawfull King and yet they Paid him neither Active nor Passive obedience for they did put themselves into a posture of defence against him though David himself spared his Person and so did the Presbyterians put into their Commission to their General that they should spare the Kings-Person besides you cannot doubt but that they who in the Pulpit did animate the People to take Arms in defence of the then Parliament alleadged Scripture that is the Word of God for it if it be lawful then for Subjects to resist the K. when he Commands any thing against the Scripture that is contrary to the Command of God and to be Judge of the meaning of the Scripture it is impossible that the Life of any King or the Peace of any Christian Kingdom can be long secure It is this doctrine that divides a Kingdom within it self whatsoever the men be Loyal or Rebels that Write or Preach it publickly And thus you see that if those seditious Ministers be tryed by this Doctrine they will come off well enough B. I see it and wonder at People that having never spoken with God Almighty nor knowing one more than another what he hath said when the Laws and the Preacher disagree should so keenly follow the Minister for the most part an ignorant though a ready tongu'd Scholar rather than the Laws that were made by the King with the consent of the Peers and the Commons of the Land A. Let us examine his words a little nearer First concerning passive Obedience when a Thief hath broken the Laws and according to the Law is therefore executed can any Man understand that this suffering of his is an obedience to the Law Every Law is a Command to do or to forbear neither of these is fulfilled by suffering If any suffering can be called obedience it must be such as is voluntary for no involuntary Action can be counted a submission to the Law He that means that his suffering should be taken for obedience must not only not resist but also not fly nor hide himself to avoid his punishment And who is there among them that discourses of passive obedience when his life is in extream danger that will voluntarily present himself to the Officers of Justice Do not we see that all Men when they are led to execution are both bound and guarded and would break loose if they could and get away Such is their passive Obedience Christ saith the Scribes and Pharisees sate in Moses Chair all therefore whatsoever they bid you observe that observe and do Mat. 23. 3. which is a doing an active Obedience and yet the Scribes and Pharisees appear not by the Scripture to have been such Godly men as never to command any thing against the Revealed will of God B. Must Tyrants also be obeyed in every thing actively or is there nothing wherein a Lawful Kings Commands may be disobeyed what if he should command me with my own hands to Execute my Father in Case he should be Condemned to Dye by the Law A. This is a Case that need not be put We never have read nor heard of any King or Tyrant so inhumane as to command it if any did we are to consider whether that Command were one of his Laws for by disobeying Kings we mean disobeying his Laws those his Laws that were made before they were applied to any particular person for the King though as a Father of Children and a Master of domestick Secrets yet commands the people in general never but by a precedent Law and as a Publick not a Natural person and if such a Command as you speak of were contrived into a general Law which never was nor never will be you were bound to obey it unless you depart the Kingdom after the publication of the Law and before the Condemnation of your Father B. You Author says farther in refusing Active obedience to the King that Commanded any thing contrary to God's Law we must be very well assured that the thing is so contrary I would sain know how is it possible to be assured A. I think you do not believe that any of those Refusers do immediately from God's own Mouth receive any Command contrary to the Command of the King who is God's Lieutenant nor any other way than you and I do that is to say than by the Scriptures and because men do for the most part rather draw the Scripture to their own sense then follow the true sense of the Scripture there is no other way to know certainly and in all cases what God Commands or forbids us to do but by the sentence of him or them that are constituted by the King to determine the sence of the Scriptures upon hearing of the particular Case of Conscience which is in question and they that are so constituted are easily known in all Christian Commonwealths whether they be Bishops