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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A88101	A discourse of disputations chiefly concerning matters of religion, with animadversions on two printed books, (mentioned in the contents following next after the epistles:) the latter whereof, at the request of Dr. John Bryan, (for censure and advice) being seriously perused; the author of it, John Onley, is thereupon convinced of error, slander, and of arrogant, uncivill, and unchristian miscarriage, not onely towards him, but all the reformed churches of the world, out of the way of his most affected singularity. By John Ley, rector of the church of Solyhull in Warwicksh. Whereto is added a consolatory letter to Dr. Bryan, &c. upon the death of his worthily well-beloved and much bewailed son Mr. Nathaniel Bryan: which immediately followeth after the discourse of disputations.	Ley, John, 1583-1662.	1658 (1658)	Wing L1877; Thomason E938_1; Thomason E938_2; ESTC R205182	106,562	123

passion is more familiarly the offence of the Romish wranglers who are chosen of purpose by their party for Disputants because of their zeal to the cause which kindles quickly into choler as we have partly observed in Eccius and Gretz●r and may further note in one of Doctor Featleys Antagonists Doctor Eglestone who was so transported with passion as to say to him t The Romish Fisher caught and held in his own Net par 3. p. 128. I will be hanged at the next Gallows if I make you not confess that it implies no contradiction for an accident to be without a subject if he wou'd have stood to his word he had been sure to be hanged for it was not in his power to force the Doctor to such a confession Fourthly The Disputants ought to be pious that out of conscience they may prefer Verity before Victory Of this mind doubtless was the Apostle Paul when he professed he could do nothing against u Victoriâ nihil dulcius Cicer. Act. in verrem fol. 876. the truth 2 Cor. 13.8 to a corrupt and carnal mind nothing is more sweet then victory but if truth appear to have the preeminence a godly man will not be ashamed to yield unto it though with change of his opinion for he takes not himself to be of so great authority and fame as to be ashamed that he erred as w Ne erubescas de commutatione sententiae non es tantae authoritatis famae ut errasse te pudeat Hieron Apolog. advers Ruffin Tom. 2. p. 199. Hierom said to Ruffinus do nothing through strife or vain glory Phil. 2.3 as the Papists did against the Protestants in the Councel of Trent x Hist of the Councel of Trent l. 1. An. 1530. when as Cardinal Langi Arch-Bishop of Saltzburg said that the Reformation of the Mass was honest the liberty of meats convenient but that a poor Monk meaning Luther should reform all was not to be endured some conceive it matter of moment that the Disputants be matched in quality and calling as in the y The Romish Fisher caught and held in his own Net p. 3. p. 118 119. Disputation betwixt Master Walker and Doctor Egleston Before I dispute upon the question saith Mr. Walker I desire to know your quality and calling whether you be a professed Popish Priest or no Dr. Egleston I am a Roman Catholick not a Priest but a Doctor of Physick Mr. Walker I desire then another Adversary some of the Priests here present that we may dispute on equal terms I hold the calling of a Protestant Preacher and Divines more honourable then any Popish Priesthood and therefore if your Priests think themselves too good to dispute with me you shall not brag that your Lay-men are fit matches to dispute with Protestant Preachers and Divines Dr. Egleston Mr. Walker you being a Divine ought to give me though a Lay-man the best satisfaction you can Mr. Walker I am ready to give you satisfaction if you come as a Layman ought to a Divine that is with a desire to hear and to be instructed in all humility not with a mind to contradict and oppose the truth And so they proceeded to Disputation as in the relation quoted in the Margin and it may be the Doctor of Physick was a better Divine then the Priests that were present Doctor Brian in this respect might have had more just cause of disdain to take Mr. Only for his match then Mr. Walker Doctor Egloston since the disparity was more betwixt them two then betwixt a Divine that was not a Doctor and a Doctor that was not a Divine This for the qualification of the Disputants Now secondly for a Moderator or President to manage the disputation with decency and order It is requisite that some person of worth for wisdom and gravity and if it may be also of power and authority so that his power be not byassed by partiality on either side be President and Moderator to mannage the disputation with order and decency for prevention of vain jangling and confusion when disputations are national and particularly authorized by the supreme power that power commonly makes choice of a President or of Commissioners to preside over the disputation so did the Emperour z Aug. Breric Collat. Praefa Tom. 7. par 1. p. 684. Honorius who published an Edict for disputation betwixt the Catholicks and Donatists at Carthage and by the same Edict ordained one to preside in the disputation who was called a Judge So did the Emperour a Sleyd Com. l. 16. p. 353. Charles in the Conference at Ratisbone In that at Poysie in France betwixt Beza and the Popish party Beza and those of his b Hist of the Councel of Trent l. 5. p. 451. side desired that the King and his Councel would be present to govern the action with especial exception against the Clergy that none of them might preside because they were their professed adversaries and some of them unwilling that the Protestants should be gratified in that request would have perswaded the Queen Mother to keep her son King Charles away lest being young he should be led away by the plausibility of error So in the concertation at Fountainbleau betwixt the Lord Morney and the Bishop of Eureux King Henry the Fourth was prsent and President the first day yet appointed he Commissioners because himselfe would not be engaged to attend the debate until it were ended though he did so because it brake off after one day by the sickness of the Lord Morney as hath been said before In the publick Disputations at Oxford and Cambridg betwixt the Protestants and Papists in King Edward the sixths time certain Commissioners were sent in the name of c Fox Martyr vol. 2. p. 756. col 2. 760. col 2. Visitors to the number of five to each University to oversee the Disputation orderly carried on and to make report of it to His Majesty In the three dayes conference at Hampton Court King James himself was President and it was well he was so else some of the Prelates would have soon put to silence Doctor Reynolds and his assistants for when that Reverend Religious and Learned Doctor did but modestly observe a d The second dayes conference at Hampton Court p. 25. Contradiction in the Service Book about Confirmation one place confessing it was a depraved imitation of the Apostles another grounding it upon their example Act. 8.9 and thereupon desired that the contradictions might be considered and the ground of conformation examined the Bishop of London cut him off and kneeling down most humbly desired His Majesty that the ancient Canon might be remembred which saith Schismatici contra Episcopos non sunt and endi was there any thing in the Doctors speech which deserved so sharp a censure as that for that he should be called a schismatick such a schismatick as might not be suffered to speak because that

been that ended but the Bishops of Valence told them it was dishonourable Therefore on the 24 day it was again assembled in presence of the Queen and Princes wherein Beza spake of the Church Conditions and Authority thereof Of Councels Of the dignity of the Scriptures So the History of Trent hit the m Serres History of France p. 738. French History that day Beza made answer to the Cardinal and disputed with Espenceus and Sainctes and v. 26. he treated with him again of the Lords Supper the other Ministers likewise replied to some Objections of other Doctors of the Sorbon and finally all was converted into private Conferences without any resolution or conclusion that might end these troubles By the appointment of Sigismu●d King of Poland Anno 1566. there was a Disputation appointed betwixt the new Arrians and those who professed the contrary Faith unto them at Petricovia in Poland Here there was somewhat to do about Presidentship whether there should be one or more which was resolved that by turns one of each should preside and being Papists who managed the dispute against the Arrians they chose him for the Scribe who had been a Scribler against Calvin for his n Calv. Opuse p. 682 683 684. ad fratres Polonos Epistles ad fratres Polonos The Arrians would not yield to say Amen to the prayer of their opposites because they would not acknowledge a God in Trinity of Persons After this they soon brake off without any fruit of their Conferences as o Possevin Biblioth Select Tom. 1. c. 13. p. 363. Anno. 1572. Possevine who setteth down the dispute reporteth From that year to 1590 p Ant. Possev Apparat. Sacer vol. 1. p. 480. Possevine gives a List of 21 Disputations of several Popish Points held in several Popish Universities but they were but such Disputations as Bellarmines at Rome without a personal opponent or if with one not real and serious but onely personated Stanislaus Roscius Anno 1574. Melch. Adam in vita Bullingeri p. 502. as I have observed in the 1 Chapter that he may reproch the Religion of the Protestants for want of unity alledgeth That from the Disputation at Lipsia Anne 1519. to their Synod in Vilna 1590. they have had above 100 Meetings Conferences Disputations Councels and Synods and yet cannot reconcile themselves to one another wherein he sheweth himself a malicious and slanderous Papist and to speak with reference to r Ferrar. Lexic Geogr. p. 432. col 1. fin Vilna in Sarmatia a chief City of Lithuania in Poland where Roscius was an Abbot it was at Vilna where the Jesuit ſ Bucolz chron p. 778. Anno 1584. Scarga rang the Bell to a Parisian Massacre of the Protestants of that City where for their too good agreement in the truth in their conceits they would make them agree in tribulation for it under their remorsless cruelty though I confess the dissention I finde in divers of their meetings is so much that I am loth to mention them Betwixt these two Chronological terms Anno 1586. Biblioth Parv. Tom. 1. Graec. Lat. à p. 194 ad 272. there was publish'd a dispute betwixt Gregentius Archiepisc Tophrensis so he is called with Herbanus a Jew wherein Gregantius argueth copiously and vigorously for the Christian against the Jewish Religion Philip Mornay Lord of Plessies Governor of Saumur Anno 1600. Joh. de Serres gen Hist of France much augmented out of approved Authors by Edw. Grims p. 1052. accused by the B shop of Eureux to have committed 500 falshoods in his Book against the Mass presented a Petition to K. Henry IV. That his Majesty would be pleased to appoint Commissioners to examine every passage of Scripture cited in his Book The King yielded to his motion and on the fourth of May appointed a Conference betwixt them which began that day in the great Hall at Fountainbleau Who were the Commissioners and in what equipage they were placed there is fully set down in the general History of France written by John Serres in the Reign of Henry IV. B fore the Disputation began it was declared That it should not bring into debate matters of Doctrine of either Religion but onely be confined to the Exceptions of the Bishop and the Answers of the Lord Mornay made unto them Who first promised in the general Ibid. that his hope was That when he should be equally examined all men should finde that he had carried himself faithfully and diligently although it were not to be held strange if in five thousand passages or more they have found some wherein his eye his memory or his judgement hath wavered Oh said he that the Books of the Roman Church which have been written within this hundred years were examined with this rigour how many should you find that could endure this Trial Finally he professed that with his Majesties leave this act was particular and could not prejudice the Doctrine of the Reformed Churches of that Realm which had been before him and should be after him And so they entred into the matter “ French Hist p. 1053. But after the first days debate Mornay fell very sick so the dispute in that manner proceeded no further Whereof we shall speak more in the next Chapter The Disputes of Peter de Moulin with the Jesuites and other Papists in France are too many to be brought into this Catalogue wherein I desire to be brief as also those of D. Featly our acute Countryman both in England and in France Anno 1603. was the Conference or Disputation at Hampton Court before King James The w The first days conference at Hampton Court p. 1 2. parties of opposite opinions were on the one side the Archbishop of Canterbury the Bishops of London Durham Winchester Worcester St. Davids Chichester Carlisle and Peterborough the D●ans of the Chappel Worcester Westminster Pauls Chester Windsor with Dr. Field and Dr. King Archdeacon of Notingham and on the other Dr. Reynolds Mr. Spa●k● Mr. Knewstubs and Mr. Chaderton Agents for the Millenary plaintiffs as Dr. Barlow Dean of Chester the partial Penman of that Conference calleth them not that they were Chiliasts or Millenaries as many are by a mistaken sense of Revel 20.6 but because they agreed much with them who exhibited a Petition to the King with the Subscription of a thousand Ministers The matters disliked or questioned were reduced by Dr. Reynolds the Fore-man to these * Ibid. p. 23. four Heads First that the Doctrine of the Church might be preserved in purity according to Gods Word Secondly that good Pastors might be planted in all places to preach the same Thirdly that Church government might be sincerely ministred according to Gods Word Fourthly that the Book of Common-prayer might be fitted to more increase of piety Doctor Francis Write had two Disputations with Fisher the Jesuite An. 1622. the latter of them in the presence of King James With the

and mine own I professe my self Sir Your sincerely devoted servant JOHN LEY ERRATA IN the Epistle to Samuel Ebrall Esq in the second Page l. 6. r. Mr. O. Pag. 1. l. 7. dele two r. Parenthesis p. 2. l. 18. r. your p. 3. l. 5. r. altercation P. 4. in marg r. arrogantia p. 5. l. 5. r. 40. in marg r. 26. r. Roscius l. 29. r. discovered p. 6. r. l. 20. r. Trapp l. 18. r. Butler p. 7. l. 1. r. catholicks p. 8. l. 19. r. may p. 10. l. 11. r. Venice p. 15. marg r. quod p. 16. l. 37. r. challenges p. 19. l. 25. r. 1. of God p. 21. l. 24. of man p. 22. l. 11. r. Genoa l. 29. r. all night p. 26. l. 1. r. rightly in marg r. deletum p. 28. l. 2. r. dissentire l. 8. adde for p. 29. in marg r. Possed p. 34. l. 6. r. to l. 22. r. things in marg r. ab p. 35. l. 26. r. Expositors p. 37. l. 5. r. the. p. 38. l. 29. r. Papinus p. 41. l. 12. r. Phflugius p. 44. l. 5. adde day p. 46. l. 33. add these l. 34. adde Campian l. 35. adde the Conference p. 47. l. 15. adde it p. 48 Chap. V. Contents of the Chap. adde with the causes of them l. 22. r. was p. 49. l. 1. r. two p. 51. l. 20. r. 1574. p. 53. l. 31. adde it l. 36. adde as l. 38. adde forenoted l. 39. r. some adde a doubt d. 54. l. 8. dele is p. 55. l. 15. dele in another Chapter p. 58. l. 10. adde as a fained l. 34. add to doubtful debate p. 62. l. 17. dele for l. 33. dele for Costerus p. 63. l. 7. r. and. l. 19. r. Costerus p. 69. l. 3. r. fifty l. 16. adde In. p. 94. l. 1. r. hinges l. 26. adde them p. 95. l. 21. adde a man to sleep p. 97. l. 8. r. helpless p. 100. over against l. 6. r. in marg So in the Disputation at Kenelnsworth published by Mr. O. P. 50. p. 124. l. 10. r. like To the VVORSHIPFULL my very worthy Friend Samuel Ebrall Esq Sir YOu were an hearer as I have heard of the Disputation at Killingworth betwixt Dr. John Brian and John Onely but as he hath set it forth in print it would be more suitable to say Dr. John Onely and John Brian so far hath the arrogancy of the man magnified himself without due respect to the modesty of a Christian the ingenuity of a Scholar and the discretion of an ordinary rationall man and so much hath he vilified the Doctor in another book published by him since whom all men who know him and are of any note for Learning and Religion highly honour for a very eminent degree of them both and for his excellent faculty and indefatigable diligence in Preaching and Catechising there be very few who are comparable to him Nor do I know Mr. Onely his match among the Antipaedobaptists as he calleth his Assistants at the disputation at Kill for insolence of Spirit supercilious contempt of such as are not taken with his Tenets Some I am sure there are who though they have too much affinity with some of his fancies and opinions shew much mansuetude and civility to those that steer their Ministeriall and Christian course by other principles yea and they hold religious communion with them in publick ordinances not distinctive But Mr. Onely as he hath a name of singularity so he is the fitter to be the ringleader of some notorious Schisme like Primianus a Donatist in the Collation at Carthage to whom if a denomination had been given him out of a time of faction according to his learning and manners it must have been not Primianus but Ultimianus This with my discourse of Disputations in matter of Religion mine animadversions on the printed Disputation hold at Kill and on Mr. D. his second book and my desired advice to Dr. Brian concerning it whether to answer him or no I have presented to publick view with a particular addresse unto your self that of a true and intelligent witnesse you may become an equall and competent judge of the difference betwixt the Dr. and Mr. O. super tota materia as now it is drawn out in his second book and I was glad of this occasion to testifie how much contentment I take in the situation of my Residence as in vicinity to yours whereby I have the opportunity of enjoying your good neighbourhood your friendly visits and many other affectionate offices whereto there shall be no want of any answerable returnes which come within the capacity of the hearty prayers and best observance of Your faithfull friend and humble servant JOHN LEY For the very Reverend his highly honoured Friend Mr. Iohn Ley Pastor of Solyhull Reverend Sir YOur Consolatory Letters I cannot sufficiently bless God and You for and therefore do again return my most humble and hearty thanks for your very great labour of love therein expressed withal earnestly craving leave to make them publick the doing whereof will I am assured redound much to the glory of God erecting many souls dejected for the like loss and furtherance of your own glorious reward in the great day of account and refreshing which shall come from the presence of the Lord. Sir there is another trouble fallen upon my spirit wherewith I take the boldness to acquaint you occasioned by an Examination of some of my Arguments for the truth of our Parochial Churches by my Antagonist John Onley which hath been abroad as I hear a long time but lately came to my notice by a Minister 20. miles distant I find the Book so full of bitterness and arrogancy that I question whether it be better to let the man alone or to answer him according to his folly I have sent it to you requesting your perusal thereof and your advice what I shall doe with all convenient speed which shall lay a further Obligation upon Sir your Fellow-labourer in the work of the Lord and bounden servant JOHN BRIAN To which Letter of Dr. Brian a short and summary answer is returned in the next leaf a full one in the whole discourse following A Table of the Contents of each Chapter CHAP. I. HOw some have been and are averse from or adverse to disputations in Religion how far and for what reasons pag. 3. CHAP. II. Of a contrary disposition in some too much addicted to disputation in being too forward to make or accept of offers of dispute and multiplying of needless and presumptuous questions and resolutions in matters of Religion p. 12. CHAP. III. That disputations on matters of Religion are warrantable by Scripture and Reason and not onely lawful but sometimes also expedient and profitable p. 17. CHAP. IV. An Historical collection of Disputations of several sorts principally concerning differences in matters of Religion in two Sections the 1. Containing examples from the Apostles to Luther 2. Of examples from Luther to the present

shall arise in the male Sex and n Ib. q. 8. ar 2. whether the haires and nailes shall rise up with the body with many others of like sort which I passe over because I would leave roome for others of another kind which manifest the Papists to be the greatest doters upon impertinent and unprofitable questions and the boldest determiners of doubtfull things that are This appeareth not onely by their disputes and questions such as I have observed already but by their resolution of many doubts as they pretend by divine revelation which may best be delivered by way of question and answer as in form of a Catechisme divers of which are set down in two such Papists books as usually supplied matter to their Priests for Sermons to the people of which the one is the big book of the lives of the Saints called by themselves the Golden Legend though by by those who have read it with indifferency the lying legend made by Jacobus de Voragine as he is ordinarily termed but as c Posse Apparat Sacr. vol. 1. p. 794. Possevine corrects the name Iacob de Varagine Archbishop of Geneva his book was printed at Venice ann 1575. The other book is a book of selected Sermons printed by Iames Kavinell for the use of simple Priests who want cunning to preach So in the title of the book the time and place of the first publication of it I find not noted This premised I will begin the questions out of their former book of lies with the author of lies the Devil Quest. 1. What is the proper likenesse of the Devil d Leg. aur fol. 244. p. 1. col 2. He is like an Ethiopian more black then thunder his face sharpe his beard long his haires hanging unto his feet his eyes flaming as hot as fire casting out sparkles of fire and out of his mouth come flames of sulphur his hands bound with chaines of fire behind his back Quest 2. When the Devil had tempted Adam and Eve or Adam by Eve to eat the forbidden fruit what penance did they undergoe after they had yielded to the Devil and were expelled out of Paradise e Thebook of selected Sermons printed by James Kavinell Dominic Sep. mages fol. 8. p. 1. col 2. Ans For many yeares before their death they stood either of them in water a night up to the chin far from one another till their flesh was as green as grasse But we must make a long leap into the new Testament else we shall stay too long and make our questions too many Quest 3. Why was Peter bidden to put up his sword when he drew it in our Saviours defence f Menot Serm. fol. 47. col 4. Because he had nor cunning enough to use it for he cut off Malchus his care when he should have cut off his head Quest 4. How many thornes were in the Crown that was set upon the head of Christ g Apol. for Herodot l. 1. c. 35. p. 274. out of Bonaventure Lyra Maylard Just a thousand Quest 5. How many wounds had the body of our Saviour in the whole Ans h pa. 14. of the office of the Virgin printed at Paris ann 1524. Five thousand four hundred and sixty Quest 6. What were the theeves names that were cruicified with Christ Ans i Leg. aur fol. 16. p. 1. col 2. Dysmas the name of him that was saved and Gesmas the name of him that was damned Quest 7. Why was Dysmas saved rather then Gesmas Ans k A Franciscan of Bourdeaux Apol. for Herodot l. 1. c. 33. p. 260. Because he would not suffer his fellowes to rob Christ when he fled into Egypt Quest 8. How know you that S. Thomas Becket whose salvation hath been l See Speeds Chron. l. 9. c. 6. p. 510. col 2. 43. called in question even among our own ca. because of his contumacy against his King was saved Ans A m Leg. aur fol. 180. p. 2. col 1. young man died and raised by miracle said there was in heaven a void seat and asking whose it was answer was made that it was kept for a great Bishop of England named Thomas of Canturbury n Symbolum dedit coenavit Ter. Andr. Act. 1. Sen. 1. Durand Rational l. 4. c. 25. fol. 133. p. 1. Erasm Catechism Symboli Apostolor c. set out with pictures to every Article at the beginning of the book Quest 9. How was the Creed called the Apostles Creed composed by the twelve Apostles Ans As a shot made up by guests each paying his share for Article 1 was laid down by Saint 1 Peter Article 2 was laid down by Saint 2 Andrew Article 3 was laid down by Saint 3 Iames the Son of Zebede Article 4 was laid down by Saint 4 Iohn Article 5 was laid down by Saint 5 Philip. Article 6 was laid down by Saint 6 Bartholemew Article 7 was laid down by Saint 7 Thomas Article 8 was laid down by Saint 8 Matthew Article 9 was laid down by Saint 9 Iames the son of Alpheus Article 10 was laid down by Saint 10 Simon Article 11 was laid down by Saint 11 Thaddeus Article 12 was laid down by Saint 12 Matthias Quest 10. What shall be the condition of the world the last fifteen dayes before the day of Judgement Ans p See Leg. aur on the advent of our Lord. fol. 2. p. 2. col 2. and compare it with the selected Sermons out of it published by James Kavinell fol. 2. p. 2. col 2. c. In whose book the dayes are thus numbred and the number thus precisely reckoned as precedent immediately before the day of judgement The first of the fifteen dayes the water shall rise upon the Sea and it shall be higher then any hill by forty cubites 2. The second day the Sea shall fall down so low that unneath the earth may be seen 3. The third day the great fishes as Whales and others shall appear above the water and shall cry unto Heaven and God onely shall understand their cry 4. The fourth day the Sea and waters shall brenne 5. The fifth day all trees and herbes shall sweat bloud and all manner of fowles shall come together and neither eat nor drink for dread of the doome that is coming 6. The sixth day all great buildings Castles Towers Steeples and Houses shall fall down and brenne till the Sun rise again 7. The seventh day all Stones and Rocks shall beat together that each shall break other with an horrible noise the which shall be heard into Heaven 8. The eight day the Earth shall quake so that there may no man stand thereon but shall fall down 9. The ninth day the people shall go out of their dens and go as they were mindlesse and none speak to other 10. The tenth day Hills and Earth shall be made even and plain 11. The eleventh day all graves and tombes shall open and the

recovered to his former sound opinion The effect of the Dispute betwixt b Baron Annal. tom 2. ad ann 277. parag 16. Archelaus and Manes was rather the confusion of the Heretick then his conversion for he run away from his Antagonist when he had convinced him and would not appear in his sight any more And though Augustine sometimes wholly lost his labour in conflict with Hereticks who continued contumacious and clamorous against the Truth and him yet sometimes he was very successful in his Disputations with them sometimes as Origen was with Beryllus c Aug. fin l. 2. de Artis cum foelice Manich. tom 6. p. 657. as when he brought Felix the Manichean Heretick to a Recantation of his Errour and subscription against it sometimes as Archelaus when he disputed with Manes whose foil and flight I have noted in another Chapter As when having disputed with Fortunatus a Manichean and d Possid in vit●… Aug. c. 6. put him to silence he put him also to so much shame that he went out of the City of Hippo and returned thither no more More might be observed of his good success either for conversion or victory but that I must leave a little room for some other memorable Examples of like sort not to mention that which I had occasion to bring in e Ibid. c. 4. ad ann 325. before of a subtile Philosopher and Logician convinced and converted by a plain old man We may note next the issue of that famous Disputation betwixt Maximus the Monk and Pyrrhus the Archbishop of Constantinople about the f See cap. 4. ann 645. Will of Christ which was that the Archbishop gave way to the Truth proposed and proved by Maximus The issue of the Dispute betwixt Gregentius a Greek Bishop with Herbanus a Jew continued about 40 days together g Tom. 1. Bibli Patrum Graec Lat. p. 277. concluded with the conversion of many from the Jews I will conclude this point of the good success of Disputation with one or two domestick● the one is of Dr. Reynolds conferring or disputing with Hart in the Tower who it seems in one point of moment was brought to acknowledge a Protestant Truth viz. h Hart in his Epist to the indifferent Reader p. 2. before the Conference That the opinion which makes the Pope a Temporal Lord over Kings and Princes is unreasonable and unprofitable altogether for he hath not to meddle with them or their civility much less to depose them or give away their Kingdoms that 's no part of his Commission But the Doctrine of i Non licet Christianis tolerare regem infidelem aut haereticum si ille conetur subditos ad suam haeresim vel infidelitatem pertrahere ad judicare an rex pertrahat ad haeresim necne pertinet ad Pontificem cui est commissa cura Religionis ergo Pontificis est judicare regem esse deponendum vel non deponendum Bellar. de Rom. Pontif. lib. 5. c. 7. tom 1. p. 351. col 1. Bellarmine is wherein not onely the Jesuites but other Zelots for the Papacy follow him That Christians ought not to tolerate an Infidel or Heretical King if he endevour to draw his Subjects to Heresie or Infidelity but to judge whether the King draw his Subjects to Heresie or no belongeth to the Pope to whom is committed the care of Religion So that it belongeth to the Pope to try whether he be to be deposed or not But had the learned and religious Doctor prevailed nothing at all with his Adversary but that Hart had been so hardened in all Popish Errors as to renounce none of them as he did what he could by Sophisms and Lies by Fraud and Falshood to out-face the Truth as k Confer c. 7. divis 7. p. 377. Dr. Reynolds justly chargeth him yet we cannot but account it an happy effect of their Dispute that it produced in print so excellent a Book as the Report of that Conference is so full of all kinde of Learning pertinently applied and meeting with the shuffling shifting Papists at every turn Though in this respect this Conference proved in the issue and effect of it better than was expected yet it is more strange and such as the like hath seldome hapned which fell out upon the Dispute of him and his Brother William “ Mr. Fullers Church-Hist of Great Brit. l. 10 p. 47. 48. John Reynolds Mr. Harts Antagonist at the first was a zealous Papist whilst William his Brother was as earnest a Protestant and afterwards providence so ordered it that by their mutual Disputation John Reynolds turned an eminent Protestant and William an inveterate Papist in which perswasion he died This gave the occasion to an excellent Copy of Verses concluding with this Distich Quod genus hoc pugnae est ubi victus gaudet uterque Et simul alteruter se superasse dolet What war is this when conquered both are glad And either to have conquered other sad The success of the Dispute betwixt Dr. Featly and Fisher both good and bad I have observed already in this Chapter And so much may suffice for the issues and effects of Colloquies Conferences and Disputes in matters of Religion CHAP. VI. How Disputations are to be ordered that the Truth may be cleared and being cleared both it and they who plead for it may be secured from reprochful mis-reports THough nothing be many times more rashly undertaken than a dispute of Religion yet in nothing is more prudence and caution required than in that that it may be managed to the best advantage for victory on the Truths side And therefore where there is an association of Ministers it will be agreeable to their goodness and wisdome to joyn in a resolution not to enter the Lists of publick Disputation with any though provoked without a serious consultation of the Brotherhood to deliberate First Whether the matter be fit to be disputed or no. Secondly Concerning the persons who are to be actors in it or present at it Thirdly What shall be the Laws and Conditions of Dispute First whether the matter be fit to be disputed or no a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Greg. Nazianz. Orat. 31. tom 1. q. 531. Gregory Nazianzen propoundeth it as matter of special consideration that we dispute not of matters which are above the model of our own wits and the Auditors apprehension and ability to conceive The Emperour b Sozomen Histor Eccles lib. 7. c. 6. Gratian would not allow the Arrians to dispute of God and therefore by an especial Law forbade such Disputations because the Mystery of the Trinity is a Mystery of Faith far above the reach of Humane Reason In lower and more c De vulgaribus rebus disputantem aliquem vinci minime gravè est ne que enim omnis est c. gravissimum autem est divinitatem detrimento affici camque sophistis prodere Elias Cretens Comment in