that they are the true Ministers of Christ that turn people from darkness to Light and from the power of Satan to God Act. 26. 28. Mu. I must confess our Ministers are great Scholars as Oxford and Cambridge can afford and we look upon such to be the Ministers of the Gospel and none else but yet I cannot say they turn people from their sins But pray are there no true Ministers of Christ but they Qua. Nay none can be said to be Ministers of Christ but such as turn people to the Lord. Mu. Why who then did send them came they of themselves Qu. I never sent them saith the Lord yet they run but they shall not profit the people at all Jer. 23. 22. Mu. Truly I think they have been much better than they are now Qua. Yea they have lost their Courage their Faith and their Zeal and some of them have spued up the Common-Prayer-Book in their Zeal but now they have many of them lickt it up again See what the Prophet calls such Isa 56. 10. Mu. Indeed our Ministers do love their bellies too well to be the Ministers of Christ Truly Friend I cannot speak much for them I see they feed their flock but sparingly but themselves they feed without fear I think for they grow in belly amain but what shall I say when such men as they go wrong what shall become of me that am a sinner Qua. Believe in the Light that shines in thy heart for that Teacher will never deceive thee but will make thee wiser than all thy Teachers Psal 119. 99 100. Mu. Your counsel is good but me-thoughts you were a very honest man and strict before you were a Quaker if I were so I should desire no more Qu. I had a Zeal but not according to Knowledge and all that I have given up to the Bats and to the Moles such as come not forth to look on the Sun for fear of persecution Joh. 10. 1. 1 Tim. 2. 3 12. Isa 2. 20. Mu. 'T is good to avoid Persecution as near as we can for the Scriptures advise us so to do Qu. The Thief and the Robber would climb up some other way but all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer Persecution 2 Tim. 3. 12. Mu. But Christ sayes If they persecute you in one City flee into another Qu. Before the Holy Ghost was given which was the promise of the Father they were more in fear and in the Childs state till our Lord and Master was offered up for a pattern to them then the same Spirit of Christ came into them and made them of the same mind for holy boldness and courage and they loved not their lives to the death and as Christ suffered in the flesh they do arm themselves with the same mind 1 Pet. 4. 1. Mu. Well but my Friend I have something else to say to you and I will leave these things to my Friend here who is better able to answer you than I can But pray let me ask you one question Qua. Use thy freedom Mu. Why did you forsake and dispise so harmless a Calling and Practice in the Art of Musick as you have done Besides you burnt and brake many good Instruments of Musick and burnt your Books of great price and value and why did you burn and break them at Tower-Hill I thought to tell you of it for it was an injurious thing to make our Calling contemptible And it is well known that Musick is the gift of God and an honourable practice I wonder you were not ashamed a man that lived so well and civilly to go and cast off such a Livelihood who maintained your Wife and Family very well and in good order and it is very probable if you had continued you had been of great esteem at this day Qua. I have found out the true Teacher who teaches the best Musick that ever any did learn who for rarity and skill out-strips all that ever had a name and such Musick as takes in the ears of God himself Jer. 9. 24. Mu. Lord bless me is there such a rare Musick-teacher among the Quakers I have heard indeed that the Quakers will come together in one place and sit an hour two or three and not speak a word one to another except sigh groan or weep do you call this good Musick Bap. Pray Friend what ground of Scripture have you to come together where some do sigh and groan and some do weep What Edification is there in this dumb show Qua. The Spirit breathes in whom it listeth and thou mayest hear the sound thereof but knowest not from whence it comes nor whither it goes John 3. Bap. Did you ever hear such Nonsense as this man speaks what strange stuff is this did I not tell you Sir what Nonsense we should have Qua. Are the Scriptures Nonsense Mu. Hold hold my Friend and be not offended at him for he hath spoke Scripture only some Translations do much differ Bap. All that I grant is true but what Scripture hath he to prove that Silent-meeting is a Worship of God Qua. The three Friends of Job when they beheld what misery he lay in they lift up their voice and wept and rent their cloaths indeed and sat down on the ground with him but spake nothing one to another for seven dayes and seven nights Job 2. last yet I do not bring this as a proof Mu. Indeed it was a long time for men to keep silence seven dayes and seven nights and not speak a word there was never such a thing done in our days I must confess but Job was a patient man Qua. I would ask thy Friend one Question and if he be free to answer me then the thing will appear more plain Mu. I 'le warrant hee 'l answer you for he is an able man and though he and I do differ I must confess in judgement yet I know he is able to answer you for he is a baptized person and stands for the vindication of Baptism and the Lord's Supper which are the Ordinances of God Qua. And I also stand in the defence of the holy Truth of God which was once delivered to the Saints Jude 3. Bap. Well Friend what 's your Question Qua. Who is it that tempts men to sin and to disobedience Bap. That is soon answered for he that tempts men to sin is the Devil Qua. Thou hast rightly answered for God tempts no man to sin neither is he tempted of any but every man when he is tempted is drawn away of his own lust and enticed and when lust hath conceived it brings forth sin and sin when it is finished brings forth death Jam. 1. 14 15. Bap. All that is true you have answered your self Qua. Then this is the Question By what means is it by a vocal voice or outward sound that he teaches men to sin Bap. Nay I do believe that the Devil is a spirit and doth not teach men to sin by
sin because he is born of God And John said he should have boldness in the Day of Judgement because as he is so are we saith he in this Life Bap. But doth not the Apostle say We and others speak after the same manner Qu. Yea for instance James said We as well as John In many things WE sin all But James was not in the many things but in the one Seed the Anointing and could sin no more than John And again he said We For saith he with the tongue we bless God and with the tongue we curse men made after the Image of God But did James Curse men Mu. God forbid For I believe that James was a very honest man and would not Curse men Jam. 3. 9. But pray Friend why did Paul say The good that I would do I do not and the evil that I would not do that do I Qu. Truly Friend that was a good state to cry out being under the sense of a body of sin and to feel sin exceeding sinful I verily believe there was such a day with Paul but the Lord brought him out of that state as he said For the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus hath set me free from the Law of sin and death 'T is so Rom. 7. 24. 8. 2. Bap. Why do you Quakers hold falling away For once in Christ and ever in Christ and so sin past and present and to come is done away Qu. How can Baptists fall away from the Truth that are not come to it or fall from Christ who are not in Christ For I testifie in the Spirit of Truth that there is as great a gulfe between you Baptists that are not in Christ and those that are in the Truth as there was between Abraham and Dives But they that are in Christ and do abide in Christ are his Disciples But they that are in him and do not abide in him they will be cast forth as a branch and so it withereth and men cast it into the fire saith Christ Jesus John 15. But if thou couldest make that good That sin past present and to come is put away thou wouldest be a friend to the Ranters and to the old Apostates and so make the sayings of Christ and the Prophets of none effect But thou and they will find it otherwise except ye repent And I know also though I bear you no malice but wish that you may be delivered from wrath to come and that you may come to the Righteousness of Christ by true repentance towards God and faith through our Lord Jesus Christ there is an antipathy in you against the truth of God and Gods friends called Quakers For in times past I had been delivered out of Prison had it not been for a Baptist-Chair-Man But Paul was in the same condition when he was Saul for he thought verily that he must do many things against Jesus of Nazareth which thing I did in Jerusalem and many of the Saints did I shut up in Prison and when they were to be put to death I gave my voice against them Acts 16. 6 10. And this I say in the fear of the Lord not sparing any whoever they are that are and shall be found workers of Iniquity they must depart from him although they may be called Quakers yet if they go from their stedfastness and from the Truth and become such as forsake the assemblings of themselves together as some do and have done such are gone from their first Love and have damnation Yea and if such do not speedily return and witness repentance they are in danger to sin against the holy Ghost for such Crucify unto themselves the Son of God and put him to open shame yea such trample under foot the Son of God and count the blood of the New Covenant an unholy thing by which they were sanctified Notwithstanding such did taste of the heavenly gift and of the power of the world to come Such were in the dayes of Old who were called The Sons of God And the Sons of God went in to the Daughters of men and were drowned with the wicked Gen. 8. 2. Ezek. 16. 22. and 34. 7. Heb. 6. 6. and 10. 25 26. Mu. But truly Friend 't is pitty that so many good men that are in England and other parts who fear God for I am perswaded that there are some good men among the Baptists and Independants the Presbyters and Episcopal yea and Papists too that are very strict men and serve God instantly and what are they all cast away because they are not Quakers Qu. Why call'st thou them good there is none good but God and they that are taught of God and do hear what the Spirit of Truth doth say to them and obey it and such their praise is not of men but of God But as to the fear of the Lord that is very precious God will bring such to the Truth from out of all the barren places For God is no respecter of persons but in every Nation he that feares God and works Righteousness is accepted of him I say such will God bring to his Everlasting Truth as he did Cornelius But as for the generality of those men thou spakest of They have a zeal of God but not according to knowledge For there is one thing that God doth require and they despite that one thing so their Prayers cannot be heard Rom. 10. 2 3. Mu. Pray what is that One thing which makes them uncapable of acceptation for methinks 't is great pitty that so many good men as I call them should not be accepted Surely you judge too hardly Qu. I dare not daube with untempred morter for where they are I was viz. in Performances in Ordinances in Family Duties in Hearing in Reading in Prayers in Fastings in my own Will and all this was Will-Worship but when that One thing came which is needful I became very poor and needy and I do find and therefore do testifie for God that while men are in their natural state they cannot please God nay all men rather are displeased at that of God in their own hearts though they may think themselves never so Religious For Paul said That he thought verily that he was to do many things contrary to Jesus of Nazareth Well but when I came to bend my mind to that of God in me which is Christ his pure Law in my heart shewed sin to be exceeding sinful and then I began to learn to be a fool insomuch that I durst not give thanks for the Victuals that were set before me Psal 39. 2. Rom. 7. 13. Mu. Truly then you were unworthy of it in my judgement for we must give thanks and praise God for all his Benefits Lord what sad People are you Quakers I did never hear such a word before Qu. Ah Friend Gods wayes are not like mans wayes neither are mans teachings like unto God's teachings for when the Lord comes his Commandment is
for the Lake I think you are for the Lake more likely But prethee Friend let me ask thee one Question more Qua. Speak on Mu. Doth not the Scripture say I will have mercy and not sacrifice Qua. Yea and it is a precious saying happy are they that can receive it and understand what it means Mu. Then truly if I had been your Counsellour you should never have burnt your Books nor brake and burnt your Instruments for if you could not for conscience sake have followed this Calling then I should have advised you to sell them and to have given the money to the Poor How say you Sir had not that been better Bap. Yes truly in my judgement it had for then some body would have been the better for it Qu. To obey the Lord. is better than to give all my goods to the poor and my body to be burned yet to let thee know the Truth of this thing when I came to be convinced of this everlasting truth I saw my Calling would not stand before it I went but not in the Counsel of the Lord and sold most of my Instruments howbeit that would not cover me for the Lord met with me and as I was learning to sew for I had formerly some insight of a Tailors Trade but I was too high to bow to it till the Truth came and that is of power to make the strong man bow and I sitting alone with my mind turned in the Voice of the Lord said Go thy way and buy those Instruments again thou lately soldest and carry them and the rest thou hast in thy house to Tower Hill and burn them there as a Testimony against that Calling So I obeyed the Lord and bought them again and carried them and all I had in my house to Tower Hill and burnt them there according to the uprightness of my heart before the Lord which Books and Instruments did amount to more than four and twenty pound and I had great peace Glory be to God for ever Amen Mu. But might it not be a delusion and false motion were you never sorry for what you have done in this thing Qu. Yes I was very sorry that when I had brought them to Tower Hill and had begun to set them on fire and when the fire flamed upon them the rude multitude would not suffer me to burn them but put the fire out so I was forced to stamp upon them and break them to pieces for I did it with much indignation though my Father and Grandfather and Great-grandfather were Mufitians yet he that was before sin was taught me to do as I did but I was sorry that I could not be avenged on them as I would but the Lord did accept of it and I had great peace And if at this time I had as many as would amount to a thousand pound of Instruments and Books for that purpose to the fire they should all go for the same indignation is with me still against that practice as against lying and stealing and committing adultery yet there is something in Musick but there is a difference between the Harps of God and the Harps of Men as there is a difference between the Natural man and the Spiritual 1 Cor. 2. 14. Mu. Well but my Friend I must tell you what the Judgement of wise men hath been in this your perverse proceedings for you were then distracted sure enough and it was a very great delusion of the enemy to perswade you from so good a Calling and this they say further That if the truth were known you have been sufficiently sorry for it since and some do verily believe that you will be glad to follow it again if you can but get an opportunity and truly as my old acquaintance I could wish that you would follow it again with all my heart What say you Sir Qu. God forbid that ever such a motion should enter my heart it never did nor never shall What go back and build again the things I have destroyed I have had opportunity sufficient to go back again into Egypt But to answer the thing thou spakest that if the truth were known some say that I have been sufficiently sorry Well both thou and they shall know the truth in this thing Indeed I was sorry at my very heart and to this hour it troubles me That ever I should spend so much of my pretious time so idely in such a cursed practice Acts 11. 17. Mu. But was not David a man after Gods own heart and he played before the Lord and danced before the Ark. And in Solomons day there was Musick in the Temple Qu. What hast thou to do with David or with Solomon or the Temple Where are your Burnt-offerings and Sacrifices you that plead for your Musick Dancing and instance David Solomon Ye filthy hypocrites would you have David and Solomon and the Temple to cover you Behold Nebuchadnezzar that old Idolater who ordained That at the sound of the Cornet Sackbut Dulcimer and all his gang of Fidlers men must bow to his Idol And for this thousand years his Brother the Pope hath set up Mass-houses and Musick and Organs and Bells and Queristers in Idol Temples For Pauls Church was called The Temple of Diana And Peters Church at Westminster The Temple of Apollo And in Rome they had the great God Jupiter and in Florence The Temple of Mars And in other places to other Idols Now Jupiter Mars Apollo and Diana were unclean Spirits and filthy Devils See Bishop Jewel of Salisbury in his Treatise of the holy Scriptures Pag. 30. And in Englands Idol Temples they sing Davids Lamentations but never follow his Practice Psal 6. Prov. 14. 9. Dan. 3. 15. Mu. Truly me thinks when I go to Church and hear the Organs and Voyces and the Discords and Concords I am even ravished to hear and I can praise the Lord with them and t is to me as the joys of Heaven Qu. That Heaven will be shaken and thy Song will be turned into howling for such Musick and Singing was never set up of God but of men and it takes with that part in man that serves not God aright but is for wrath and judgement Hos 12. 26. 1 Cor. 2. 24. Mu. Marry God forbid Friend be advised what you say and take heed for our most learned Divines and reverend Fathers in God that we have in England do highly approve of Musick Qu. T is never the better for that nor they are never the better for being called of men Divines and Reverend Fathers in God when they Persecute the Saints God is highly displeased with them and will give them blood to drink But what effects hath Musick brought forth that men so highly esteem it What fruit did Nebuchadnezzars Musick bring forth in his day was it not to murder But the three servants of the Lord would not bow to his Image at the sound of his Pipes and his Fiddles though others did
Silence all flesh and that Tongue which could Preach and Pray and give Thanks must come to know a Bridle from good words and bad words Even as David said I kept silence even from good words though sore against my will For I had often praised God with that tongue that had told Lies before Truth came and Truth brought its Bridle and tied me up so I gave up that to the Famine which was for the Famine and with my tongue I had often called God Father before that was born that should call him Father as many Professors do this day but when they shall turn to the One thing that is needful and part with all for that One things sake then the broken heart will rise then no sleep to the eyes nor slumber to the eye-lids till that be felt born that comes to do the will of God and before this time or about this time men come to sit down and reckon what it will cost them for all is to be given up within and without and such come in at the right door yet were it not for the mercy of the Lord we could never hold out Luke 14. 28. Now we come to witness the saying of the Lord Jesus Without me ye can do nothing For indeed the way is very strait and the gate narrow but God hath laid help upon one that is mighty and he hath met us to go before us O blessed be the Lord Mu. But doth not the Lord say Buy wine and milk without money and without price Then why dost thou tell us of cost and charges Is not the grace of God free Qu. Yes verily yea and the Testimony of the Lord is true for no gold or silver can buy the Truth yet it is to be bought for saith Christ who is the Wisdom Buy the Truth and sell it not Prov. 23. 23. Mu. This is strange Doctâ—ine and methinks you are a strange People and your Language is strange and your Carriage strange You stand much upon Thee and Thou and Yea and Nay Qu. Come to the Witness of God in thy own particular and thou shalt know the reason why we are so fearful to displease the Lord Oh when the fear is over the heart lest we should offend with our tongue we are safe And as for thee and thou we had never learnt it except the Lord had taught it us for I could willingly have spoken the old Language which was from the Pope You to a particular but the Language of the Spirit is thou to one and you to many as thou mayest read from the beginning of Genesis to the end of the Revelations though I could willingly have gone miles about than meet my old Companions to speak the plain language to them And as I was faithful in a little the Lord made me stronger and stronger But when I said to one you the Lord would smite and judge me for it And as yea and nay are faithfully performed in the power of the Lord and to stand faithful to it Men will as soon take our yea or nay as others Bonds But these little things cost me and others very dear and whoever will be his disciple he must not despise the day of small things but must take up the daily Cross and follow him This is true Mat. 10. 38. Mu. Indeed I have heard in the Gospel that we must seek the Kingdom of Heaven first and the Righteousness thereof and all other things shall be added That is a very plain Scripture but who is able to do so Surely but very few Qu. Many in this day of the Lord have denyed all and have taken up the daily Cross and have followed him and are well satisfied in what they have done Glory for ever be to the Lord Mat. 5. 20. Mu. O the way to heaven is a very hard strait and narrow way and few there be that find it What will become of me vile wretch Qu. That which presents thee vile in thine own eye and in secret reproves thee for sin O love that Rev. 3. 9. Mu. Friend Pray for me for now I begin to hate my self and my Calling but how shall I love that which reproves me would you indeed have me do so how contrary is this to our Religion Qu. Take heed to Gods Witness and give up to obey it and own the indignation of the Lord as David did because he had sinned against him So the Light of Christ will let thee see thy sin But believe the Light and follow the Light and look not so much at the sin as at him who will save thee out of the hands of all thine Enemies For a mans enemies are they of his own house But as thou mindest the Light it will judge and condemn sin and raise a desire in thee to do the will of God and thou must have a care not quench that desire Mu. Truly I think there is something in me I cannot be at peace nor at quiet for it and sometimes I am grievously affrighted Qu. 'T is the Witness of God this was my case once Give up in obedience to him and love his Reproofs for the reproofs of Instruction is the way of Life 'T is so Prov. 3. 11 12. Mu. Well Friend I have strove much to oppose you though in my self I have been reproved for it for I do believe that both God and good men love the honest Quakers But if I and all men do oppose you yet you go on surely there is a miraculous hand upholds you that you so hold your integrity truly Friend I have a good mind to hear you but I would not be seen Qu. 'T is meet for thee to try all things and hold fast that which is good but thou must not be afraid of men if thou wilt be a follower of Christ Take heed and agree with thy Adversary quickly while thou art in the way with him and he with thee Mat. 5. 25. Mu. But I have read that the Devil is my Adversary must I agree with him Qu. Nay Thou hast been at agreement with him too long already but thou must agree with him that reproves thee for thy sin and look well to thy precious time while the Spirit yet strives with thee and let all people take heed of deferring their time But hearken to his voice while it is called to day For now is the acceptable time now is the day of Salvation for Gods long-suffering waits to be gracious as it did in the days of Noah Therefore haste haste come out of all uncleanness and of all false Worships let all men take heed how they withstand their day for Gods Spirit will not always strive with men lest it should fail before him and the souls that he hath made S. E. THE END