Selected quad for the lemma: lord_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
lord_n	david_n	house_n	king_n	10,577	5	4.0463	3	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A89918	Problemes necessary to be determined by all that have, or have not taken part on either side in the late unnaturall warre. For the making of their peace with God and disposing them to a hearty peace one with another. By reflecting upon what they have done, before they engage in a new more dangerous and doubtfull warre: dedicated to the Lord Major, aldermen and Common-Councel of the Honorable City of London. / By P.D.	Nethersole, Francis, Sir, 1587-1659.	1648 (1648)	Wing N497; Thomason E458_20; ESTC R203004	17,363	31

PROBLEMES Necessary to be Determined By all That have or have not taken part on either side In the late unnaturall Warre For the making of their Peace with God and disposing them to a hearty Peace one with another By reflecting upon what they have done before they engage in a new more dangerous and doubtfull Warre dedicated to the Lord Major Aldermen and Common-Councel of the Honorable City of LONDON By P. D. A violent man enticeth his neighbour and leadeth him into the way that is not good Prov. 17.29 If I yet pleased men I should not be the servant of Christ Gal. 1.10 Printed in the yeare 1648. TO THE Lord Major ALDERMEN and COMMON-COUNCEL that now are and that have been since the beginning of the late not yet ended unnaturall Warre My Lord and Gentlemen THe ensuing Problemes are a part of those enquiries which the Writer of them thought necessary for him to make before he engaged in the above mentioned Warre although he had observed that thousands made no bones to declare themselves on the one side and on the other before either had given any account to the world of the grounds of their having taken up Armes and so before it was possible for any man to judge whether side had the better of the Cause And though after this he had yet further observed by discoursing with sundry persons of all rankes and qualities engaged on both sides that not one of an hundred of them could tell what the quarrell between them was nor one of a thousand state it aright Whether you my Lord Aldermen and Common-Councel men were more carefull to inform your understandings of the truth of these and other generall Problemes and to make application of them to the particular case or matter of fact and right in question before you enclined your wills either singly or in Body to make choyce of the part you have taken and given example to others to take in that great action wherein your part hath been so great and upon what motives you took it God knowes and you can tell If you were not it doth the more import you to put these Questions home to your consciences now before those everlasting Books be sealed up by death as they will be opened when we must all come to judgement And what I take the liberty to say to you I here aske leave in all humility to wish that all other men in City and Countrey whom it may concerne would say and say in earnest to themselves The Kings most Excellent Majesty and the Lord and Commons now and heretofore assembled in this Parliament not excepted of whose pardon for this so high presumption I shall not doubt when I have made this sincere profession That it is not my intention in making this most humble Request or in publishing these Problemes to reflect any otherwise upon either of their Proceedings then as in reference to the meanes of advancing a Peace between them and with Him whose displeasure neither of them can more endure then I can theirs I humbly beseech all others into whose hands this Paper may come to read it to the same end and with the same temper of spirit one towards another that I beare in my breast towards all and every one of them And then perhaps it may not be impossible that all parties interessed and engaged in the late warre in any fashion may find it easier to observe an errour in their neighbours reckonning then to passe their own nor that thereupon they may be desirous of the leasure of a cessation of Armes for the perfecting of their accounts before they be called for at their day or at His who is coming and at the doore to keep the great Audit of the whole world nor that in fine they may all conclude it is much safer to seek out meanes to expiate the blood that hath been already spilt in so nice a quarrell then to run the danger of drawing the guilt of any more upon themselves and their posterity nor that after every of us shall be inclined to forgive one another pray for one another and to beare one anothers burdens God may be enclined to forgive us all to heare our prayers to remove all our burdens and to give us the grace when we have first made our peace with him at last to be at peace againe one with another Which through the help of his Spirit hath been and shall be a part of his daily prayer who by his grace is unfaynedly desirous to live and dy a good subject a good Englishman and a good Christian and who is as he here subscribeth himselfe My Lord Your Lordships and the Cities most humble servant P. D. 12. August 1648. THe Lord shall smite thee with madnesse and blindnesse and astonishment of heart And thou shalt grope at noone dayes as the blinde gropeth in darknesse and thou shalt not prosper in thy wayes and thou shalt be onely oppressed and spoyled evermore and no man shall save thee Deut. 28.28 29. Put up againe thy sword into his place For all they that take the sword shall perish by the sword Matth. 26.52 And David the King stood up upon his feet and said Heare me my brethren and my people As for me I had in my heart to build an house of rest for the Arke of the Covenant of the Lord and for the foot-stoole of our God and had made ready for the building But God said unto me Thou shalt not build an house for my name because thou hast been a man of warre and hast shed blood 1 Chron 28.23 Therefore if thou bring thy guift to the Alter and there remembrest that thybrother hath ought against thee Leave there thy guift before the Alter and goe thy way first be reconciled to thy brother and then come and offer thy guift Matth. 5.23 24. OMnia sunt misera in bellis civilibus sed miserius nihil quam ipsa victoria quae etiamsi ad meliores venit tamen eos ipsos feroeiores impotentioresque reddit ut etiam si natura tales non sint necessitate esse cogantur Multa enim victori eorum arbitrio per quos vicit etiam invito facienda sunt Cicero Marcello Quid viro bono et quieto et bono civi magis expedit quam abesse à civilibus controversiis Caefar Imp Ciceroni Ostendisti sapientem et bonum civem initia belli civilis invitum suscipere extrema non libenter perse qui. Cicero Marcello Sepe inter nos impendentes easus de slevimus cum belli civilis causas in privatorum cupiditatibus inclusas pacis spem a publico consilio exclusam videremus Cicero in Bruto Dominus Maris Dominus Vniversi Problemes Necessary to be determined by all that have or have not taken part on either side In the late unnaturall Warre 1. WHether uncertaine feares and jealousies of wrong intended to be done contrary to a mutuall Covenant interchangeably sworne be not an

empeached of treason might not then without danger have submitted to their tryall appointed by Law supposing the formerly accused Members had also then submitted to a Legal tryal and should have been tryed first and would have been acquitted by their Peeres so as there had been no pretence of a just Warre on his Majesties part for their detainer 45. Whether the sixth Article preferred against the said accused Members be not by his Majesty avowed to be the chiefe head of their Charge aswell in his Majesties said Declaration as in the Articles themselves the said Article being comprised in these words That for the compleating of their traiterous designes they have endeavoured as farre as in them lay by force and terror to compel the Parliament to joyne with them in their traiterous designes and to that end have actually raised and countenanced tumults against the King and Parliament And whether the maine Charge against the Lord Digby and other Incendiaries in the Parliaments said Declaration of the fourth of August 1642. be not the very same viz. their combining to bury the happinesse of this kingdome in the ruine of this Parliament and by forcing it to cut up the freedom of Parliament by the roote as it is expressed page 494. And whether the maine charge of the Army against the eleven Members be not to the same effect And whether in common discourse some do not charge Others to be as guilty of the same crime as any of the accused by the Army by the Houses or by his Majesty 46. Whether they who in their private judgements have absolved the Speakers of the two Houses in which they are but the shadowes of his Majesties sacred person from all blame in what they did the last summer can with much equity or justice condemne his Majesty for having withdrawne himselfe from the tumults at Westminster when time was allowing all to be true which hath been alleaged by his Majesty and others in his behalfe for motives inducing him thereunto And whether any thing and what and how much is wanting to make the retirement of a part of the Members of both Houses to an old Army which had refused to be disbanded at their appointment a just parallel to the retirement of a much greater part of the Members of both Houses to Yorke or Oxford and there contributing their assistance toward the raising and maintaining of an Army And whether if this last mentioned Army had found no more opposition in their march to Westminster and through London then the forementioned Army did the last year the said Members needed to have done any more then was then acted by the General and Officers of the said Army for the compassing of their designe **** Desunt nonnulla **** 47. Whether upon the whole matter Whereas it was alleaged on both sides that they took up Armes in defence of his Majesties person of the true Protestant Religion which words ought to be understood of that which in this Kingdome is established for true of the Lawes and Liberties of the Kingdome and of the power and Privilege of Parliament The truth be not That the last onely to wit the Privilege of Parliament was in Question if the question were about matter of right none of the former having been or having on either side been said to be in any danger otherwise then as the freedome of Parliament was by both sides pretended to have been intended to be by the ther impeached And whether freedome being the maine Priviledge of Parliament and the providing for the freedome of the Parliament and of all other Assemblies having been said to belong to the King by the Prelates Earles Barons and the Communalty of this Realme assembled in Parliament at Westminster of purpose to take advice of this busines in the seventh yeare of King Edward the first And that by the Statute then made it was declared that it is the Kings part through his Royall seigniory straitly to defend force of armour and all other force against his peace and to punish them which shall do contrary according to the Lawes and usages of this Realme and that all the Subjects thereof are thereunto bound to aide the King as their Soveraigne Lord a all seasons when need shall be Whether I say in the late action at Warre taken as commenced on the part of the Parliament the onely point of fact in issue were not whether his Majesty either did proceed or would have proceeded according to the Laws and Usages of this Realme in the accusation of the Lord Kimbolton now Earle of Manchester and of the five Members of the House of Commons charged with an indeavour by force and terror to compell the Parliament to joyne with them in their Traiterous Designes and with having to that end actually raised and countenanced Tumuls against the King and Parliament I say would have proceeded Because his Majesty taking notice that some conceived it disputable whether his proceedings against the persons aforesaid by his Atturney were legall and agreeable to the Priviledges of Parliament was pleased to wave those his proceedings and to Declare That when the minds of men were composed he would proceed against them in an unquestionable way And whether in the late action at Warre taken as commenced on his Majesties part the onely point of fact in issue were not whether his Majesty did ever refuse to deliver the Lord Digby or any other duly accused Incendiary to a Legall tryal before the beginning of the Warre 48. Whether his Majesties Sollicitor have not fully declared his being of opinion that the justice of the great Cause yet depending between the King his Master and his two Houses of Parliament must come at last to be determined by matter of fact in a speech by him made at Guild-hall at a Common Hall there held on Friday 6. October 1643. upon the occasion of desiring the assistance of our Brethren of Scotland in this Warre in the words to be read page 5. of the Copie of that Speech published according to Order and printed by R. Cotes in 1646. And whether the truth of any matter of fact be not more surely determined by producing witnesses upon Oath then by Tryall by Battell The words last cited In case they be called in we are to consider then what alteration this is like to make we are therefore to consider how it comes about that the Party comes to be so equall that so many should engage themselves on the other Parry as we see they do certainly a great many of them do it being uncertain in their judgments to which side to cleave Another Party they do it because that they out of feare desire to keep their estates and stand Neuters For the first of those certainly both at home and abroad those that are averse they look upon us as a Protestant Kingdom but divided among our selves they heare Protestations on both sides that both Parties do protest to maintaine the Protestant Religion the Lawes of the Kingdome and the Liberty of the Subject and they see and read the Declarations that go out on both sides and the matter of fact being that that makes the cause they know not what to believe of that The words cited page 18. All this before we meddled with Hull or Magazine or Militia shew plainly that our Act in securing them was not the cause of the Kings taking up Armes and exercising hostility upon his loving and loyall subjects which was in the thought and endeavours of those about the King who then had and still have the greatest influence upon his Councells before we thought of Hull or Militia or any thing else of that nature And then that our resigning of them now would not prevaile with him to make him lay down his Armes and return to his Parliament and gratifie the earnest and longing desires of his people to enjoy his presence favour and protection But that if he could recover either by our resignation or any other way pieces of so much advantage to him and weakning to us use would be made of them to our infinite prejudice and ruine the intention being still the same not to rest satisfied with having Hull or taking away the Ordinance of the Militia But to destroy the Parliament c. FINIS

whom a suite at Law or a warre is or by whom the one or the other is managed as whether they be Protestants or Papists religious or prophane civill or debauched make any thing to the justice of the warre or suit or ought to encline Jurors or Partakers to the one side or to the other 27. Whether the good or ill manner of managing a suite or a warre ought to be of any more weight with Jurors or Partakers seeing a good Cause may be ill managed and an ill well And whether a Suite or a Warre undertaken and commenced upon just grounds can turne to be unjust by any subsequent miscarriages in the one or in the other except the point in issue happen to be altered through the cleare discovery of some concealed further designe in one or other of the parties or some other intervening accident as it frequently falleth out in long-breathed suites at Law and came to passe in the Bohemian warre by the death of the Emperour Matthias which made a very considerable difference in the Case from that it was when the troubles began in his life time 28. Whether the accidental present interest or the future advantages or disadvantages of what kinde soever which may accrew either to the parties themselves or to the partakers or to any third person or to the publique by the respective issue of a warre or suite and whether the suspected or knowne designes or intentions either of the parties or of their partakers to make ill use of the victory ought to be of any more force with Jurors or Partakers or whether they ought to be blinde to them also and to all other like circumstances and respects 29. Whether the consideration of the accidental and consequential interest of God himselfe in the issue of a matter in debate between two parties that are in warre ought to engage souldiers or contributers to take part with the one or with the other more then Jurors in a like case the reason to the contrary being the same in both to wit because God hath no need of mans sinne in either to maintaine his Cause or glory and it being a manifest sinne in a Juror to have any respect thereunto how considerable soever such interest of God may be as will be cleare to the meanest capacity by putting the case between an Atheisticall Church-Papist and a godly zealous Protestant or Puritane touching the perpetual advowson of a great Rectorie and no lesse cleare in the case of a warre between two Princes semblably qualified touching their title to a Kingdome divided in the profession of Religion 30. Whether a meerly civil cause of cleare justice in which true Religion is much interessed though but by consequent may not justly be called Gods cause and ought not to be undertaken more heartily and maintained more vigorously by all good Christians in that respect especially when the interest of religion is the onely or maine motive to the opposition made by the adverse party which was the case of the great Henry the fourth of France who in that regard was commonly prayed for as fighting the Lords battels and is the case of the Prince Elector Palatine and of Prince Rupert his brother who in all appearance might ere this have recovered their ancient estates and dignities to which by the lawes of the Empire their title is unquestionable by the same means that the said King did his Crowne if God by his grace had not made his example too fearfull to them 31. Whether the entitling of God to any purely civil and clearly unjust cause in respect of the interest of his true Religion involved by consequent only in the successe thereof be not a sinne against the third Commandement and of a high nature and whether any damage which may happen to accrew to Gods true Religion by occasion of the issue of such a Warre will not be put to his account that was in the wrong in the point of the justice of the Warre though he were in the right in the point of the truth of his religion and whether that will not be a heavie aggravation of his sinne 32. Whether the parties and others interessed in a purely Civil Cause of dubious justice wherin Religion is no otherwise concerned then as abovesaid do well to engage themselves and to indeavour to ingage others therein under the title or colour of religion or whether it be not a great sin to do this wittingly and wilfully especially in them who being Ambassadours of a King that hath publiquely declared his kingdom not to be of this world and that accordingly refused to make himselfe a Judge of Civil inheritances between brethren will hardly be able to shew that they have any Commission from him to entangle themselves and much lesse to interesse his name in such affairs of this world and it being well knowne that in the old Law it was death for a Prophet to presume to speak a word in his name that he had not commanded Deut. 18.20 33. Whether it be lawfull for Christian subjects to take up Arms against their Soveraign for reformation of the Religion by law established or in defence of their Religion not established by law or of their lives or livelyhoods in danger by due execution of Law our blessed Saviour having expressely forbiden them to save their lives by such meanes with the addition of a most peremptory threatning if they do and of most gracious promises if they patiently lose their lives or livelyhoods for his sake And whether the truth or falsehood of their Religion or the power or number of them that attempt any of the things aforesaid doth make any difference in the case though they be the Major part of the true or of the representative Body of a kindome Or whether all these be not Anti-Christian proceedings directly contrary to the doctrine and practice of Christ and of all his holy Apostles and of the whole Church of God for many ages and particularly of the Church of England since the Reformation 34. Whether the defence of the Religion by law established be not more properly a defence of the law then of the Religion And whether it be not lawfull for Subjects of one Religion or profession to take up armes in defence of their lives or livelyhood against the violence and force of their fellow-subjects of a contrary Religion or profession though established by Law and though they pretend to have or have authority from their Soveraigne to massacre or plunder them for that Cause unlesse their said fellow-subjects first bring or endeavour to bring them to a due Legal triall And whether the truth or falsehood of their Religion or the number of the thus oppressed doth make any such difference in the case in point of justice that one man of what Religion soever hath not as much right to defend himselfe against violence as another or as a multitude or that a multitude of what Religion or number soever

well-meaning but unskilfull men have with great prudence distinguished the justifying causes of their having raised and continuing an Army and forces from the things which might by consequent have come into danger if they had not raised an Army and forces to defend them among which Religion is one And this the penner of his Majesties said Declaration had done as carefully from the beginning in these words Our quarrel is not against the Parliament but against particular men c. 42. Whether by the perusall of the said respective Declarations and of the said Preface it be not also most evident that his Majesty and his two Houses of Parliament do both pretend to have taken up defensive Armes and in defence of all and every the same things And whether it be not also evident that his Majesty in his said Declaration maketh the protecting of Delinquents whom he nameth from being brought to a Tryall by their Peeres according to the Law of the Land the onely cause of the setting up of his standard and raising defensive Armes against them and as many of his subjests as should rise in Rebellion against his Majesty and the Law in behalfe of the said pretended offendors and in justification of their actions specified at large and alledged to be High misdemeanors and Treason And whether the three causes upon which onely the Lords and Commons pretend to justifie their having taken up defensive Armes in their said Declaration of the fourth of March 1642 be not also reducible to one to wit that of bringing notorious offenders to condigne punishment whose practises are set forth at length in their declaration of the fourth of Aug. 1642 and of whom they then named none but the Lord Digby For the pretended violence and destruction of the said Lords and Commons and of the Parliament and the pretended foreigne invasion of this Kingdome which are the other two Causes neither were then nor by Law could have been charged on his Majesty but on the said Lord Digby and other unnamed Incendiaries And whether it be not thereby manifest that there were two Actions at Warre on foot at the same time the one between the King and his Parliament the other between the Parliament and his Majestie 43. Whether the penner of the said Declaration of the Lords and Commons of the fourth of August 1642 did not with great prudence carefully and frequently disavow and indeavour to disprove their having possessed themselves of Hull or of the Militia or Magazine to be the grounds of the Warre first in these expresse words to that purpose page 496. of Husbands Collection Then if they will not come to help the Parliament and save themselves especially now that the question is so clearly stated and that it appeareth that neither Hull nor the Militia nor the Magazine are the grounds of the Warre which is so furiously driven on against us by a Malignant party c. And afterwards page 497 All this before we meddled with Hull or Magazine or Militia c. to those words But to destroy the Parliament * See the words at the end of page 24. And yet more fully and clearly ibidem Yet willingly would we give his Majesty satisfaction in these particulars and so have we offered it could we be secured that disarming our selves and delivering them up to his Majesty we should not for our own destruction put the military sword into the hands of those evill Councellors and ill-affected persons who are so prevalent with his Majesty And whether the Penner of certain late Declarations of the Lords and Commons particularly that 4º Martii 1647. concerning the Papers of the Scots Commissioners wherein are these words page 68. As to the Militia although that be the foundation of security to vs and our prosterity and was the principall immediate ground of our Quarell c. And these in the same page Have we fought all this while with the King for the Militia to subject it to the arbitrement of the Scots Commissioners were well advised in those and other like passages there being as I humbly conceive nothing more cleare then that the Militia by which word brought into use by this Parliament I doe not understand the power of araying or charging the subjects of this Kingdome with such and such armes which regularly cannot be imposed without the joynt authority of King Lords and Commons but the power of assembling and conducting the subjects so armed for the suppression of all Rebellions insurrections and invasions undoubtedly ever was in the King alone and was clearly acknowledged to be so by this very Parliament when they petitioned his Majesty to put the whole Militia into the hands of such persons as should be recommended to his Majestie by both Houses of Parliament 1o. Martii 1641 When they made their first Ordinance for the ordering of the Mllitia whereby they give power to Collonels and Captaines to lead conduct and employ his Majesties subjects according as they from time to time shall receive directions by his Majesties authority signified by both Houses of Parliament 2º Martii 1641 And when they resolved upon the Question That in this case of extreme danger and of his Majesties refusall the Ordinance agreed on by both Houses for the Militia doth oblige the People and ought to be obeyed by the fundamentall Laws of this Kingdome 15o. Martii 1641. And whether the true ground of the fracture of the Parliamentarian party into Presbyterian and Independent and of the sharp controversy arisen between them upon other pretences be not which of them should have the Lions skin before he be dead And whether if the Independent could have gone sheere away with it whole it be not already manifest that they would have been subdivided againe upon the same ground And whether there be any hope of seeing an end of these bitter disputes till the sword be put again into the hand where it hath been of old And whether there be not meanes to place it there in such a way as may be much safer for the people and no lesse safe for the Houses of Parliament then to have it in their hands who being Two may at length also come to strive about it 44. Whether the penner of his Majesties Declaration of the twelfth of August did not with like prudence also distinguish the Delinquents named therein into two ranks charging the former of them to have been the Contrivers Fosterers and Fomentors of mistakes and jealousies betwixt body and head his Majesty and his two Houses of Parliament whom his Majesty thereby requireth to be delivered into the hands of Justice All the charge against the later rank being their having levied Warre against the King contrary to the Statute of the 25. yeare of King Edward the third as is pretended but in obedience to severall Ordinances of this present Parliament as is confessed which Ordinances they are therefore allowed to pleade And whether those noble Lords and others so