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A41388 Firmianus and Dubitantius, or, Certain dialogues concerning atheism, infidelity, popery, and other heresies and schisme's that trouble the peace of the church and are destructive of primitive piety written in a plain and easie method for the satisfaction of doubting Christians / by Tho. Good. Good, Thomas, 1609-1678. 1674 (1674) Wing G1029; ESTC R23950 83,883 174

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now it is and those scandals and reproaches which are so frequently cast upon Cathedrals more rationally be confuted Firm. I much approve of what you say for the Non-residency of Bishops Deans and Canons and the remote Vicaridges of Vicars Choral from their respective Cathedrals is the just occasion that the service of God is very perfunctorily performed to the great scandal of the Goverment of the Church which we can look upon as a grieveance but 't is only in the power of King and Parliament to redress Dub. The Lord put it into their hearts to undertake so good and pious a work ●et me now hear what you can answer to what is objected against the Lives a●e Conversations of Vicars Choral Petty Canons Singing-men as they are setled in some Cathedrals Eiru● My answer is That the charge is too general and favours of want of Charity That some of them may be such whose conversation is not so commendable as it should be or that they have not that sense and relish of ●eligion which ought to be in men of that Place and Calling I fear may too justly be charged upon them but much of this dirt might be wiped off by the constant Residence grave Example and strict Discipline of those to whom the goverment of the Church belongs 'T is confessed that through the corruption of our natures the best duties frequently perform'd are apt to degenerate into cold and airy formalities 'T is the great happiness of those Christians which dwel near Cathedrals that they may meet Three t●mes a day Evening Morning and Noon to offer up prayer and praises to the High and Holy God but 't is very much to be lamented that Cittizens and others not hindred by necessarie occasions should be so frequently absent from these solemn Assemblies as usually they are It is yet more to be lamented that those whose duty it is to officiate at those solemn services should look upon them as a p●nsum a task a burden as naughty boyes at school do their lessons how far are such stupid souls from holy David's zeal and piety One thing saith that good King Psal. 22.4 have I desired of the Lord which I shall seek after that I may dwel in the house of the Lord all the daies of my life to behold the beauty of the Lord and to enquire in his Temple Want of sense zeal at holy Offices is not the fault of Chore or Quire service but of those that Officiate who if they will seriously fix their hearts upon those holy duties when they sing and give praise as David did attending to the matter of their heavenly and ravishing Anthems as well as to the Musick they would not look ●pon the service as a burden but as a blessed opportunity thus to praise Almighty God in the beauty of Holyness Dub. Happily it might be so to those who understood those Anthems but I have heard some say that the singing in Chores is to them much like a Latine service they knowing not what is sung Firm. This is your Fift Exception and 't is indeed a very weak one there being none who frequent this service but know very well what is sung unless it be the full Anthem let those that make this objection frequent this service and then they will be ashamed of so frivelous a Cavile and easily perceive the fault to have been in themselves and not in the service Dub. There is one exception yet behind against your Chore service as the use of Musicall Instruments in the performance of a great part of it which are said to be Levitical and therefore unlawful under the Gospel as we have seen in the Geneva Notes upon the last Psalm as also in Aquinas Quest. 22.9 19. and divers other Learned Men. Firm. This is a very gross mistake for Musical Instruments are not part of the Levitical law never instituted by Moses who was so faithful a servant in his trust that he would not have omitted to enjoyn them had they been given him in Charge by Allmighty God They were in use long before Moses presently after the Creation of the world for Gen. 4. we read that the rare gift of playing on Musical Instruments was given to Iubal Can we imagine that such a gift was bestowed on him to Stir up wantonness and lust by the more artificial singing of unsavory Sonnets Or is it not more rational to conceive that this skil in Musick was given to men to Sing forth the Praises of our great Creator in a more excellent manner When we Glorify the Lord we ought to exalt him as much as we can Ecclesiasticus 43.30 And surely if Musick has a natural influence upon our affections to Stir up and quicken them in wantoness and daliance certainly it may work the same effect upon them to quicken and enliven them in a more devout and intensive Praising of Almighty God in all those that have a Religious tendency and a serious disposition to his worship and service besides seing 't is a moral and perpetual duty to shew forth the Praises of God all rational men will consent that this ought to be performed after the best manner and consequently with such skil and are that has the greatest influence upon our affections rather then after such a manner which renders the service of God mean and contemptible as 't is rendred in many of our Parochial Churches Dub. You have fully satisfied me that Musical Instruments in the service of God are not Levitical but are natural means to Stir up the affections in these sacred Hyms and Anthems Nevertheless I have heard that many who are much taken with Chore Anthems are much offended at the manner of reading of Prayers in Cathedrals when they pray for the Sick they use the ordinary tone which is used in Parish Churches at other times they pronounce their Prayers in a middle way between Reading and Singing Which seems to be not so grave and sutable to the Solemnity of Prayer Firm. I confess this is a common objection and some that are no enimies to Cathedral service have in this much desired a reformation but this must be left to the prudence of those that set at the Serne mean while we ought not to condemn the Quireservice for this seeming indecency well knowing that the stress of Religious duties does not consist in the toning and modulation of the voice but in the Musick of the heart and affections in a serious and devout fixing of the mind upon the things that are Read or Sung the want of which in those who Read Prayers or Sing Anthems is no little sin and one main reason why some of our Singing-men are not so seriously devout as they ought to be really those that are frequently present officiating in holy duties unpreparedly carelessly formally and irreverently by Gods just judgment may be given up to a senceless stupidity for their prophanation of the holy ordinances of God Dub. 'T
Firm. As the Kingdom of Heaven does not consist in Meats and Drinks but in Righteousness and peace Rom. 14. so neither does it consist in gestures vestures or any thing that is in it self indifferent when the Church commands us to wear such a vestment or to use such a gesture for Uniformity sake and outward decency not placing any intrinsecal Holiness or absolute necessity in any of those Ceremonies 't is our duty and not any superstition at all to be obedient yea we are guilty of the sin of disobedience and superstition also if we stand out against lawfull Authority For there is a two fold Superstition one Positive as when we ascribe Holiness to any thing that is in its own nature indifferent morrally neither good nor evil another Negative as when we Dogmatize and call that evil which Morally is not so and in such things Weare not Kneel not is as much Superstition as Weare or Kneel possibly can be What is it to any understanding man whether he Prayes or Preaches in Black or White or any other Colour unless it be for decency and uniformity the power of the Church limits us to a White Surplice rather then to a Black Iump or short Cloak Dub. But is not this an intrenchment upon our Christian liberty to be confind to particular Modes and Forms Firm. Not at all So long as our practice only is limited and our judgment left free as before any such Canon was made 't is strang that the same men who enjoyned three Ceremonies at the taking of the Covenant as to be bare Headed bare Handed the right Hand lifted up should so much scruple them in our Publick Service But in a word 't is plain Scripture that every Soul should be subject to the Higher Powers not onely for wrath but also for Conscience sake Now unless the Non-Conformists can bring as plain Scripture against our Ceremonies to prove them morally evil they must incurr the sin of Schisme and disobedience to those powers which God has ordained and these are far greater sins then the wearing of a Surplice though we had borrow'd it from the Pope himself Dub. You mind me now of one of the greatest exceptions against the Surplice c. because the Papists use it in their superstitious Worship therefore 't is unlawful for us to wear it in ours Firm. If this were a good reason 't would follow whatsoever the Papists do use or have abused in their Superstition 't is unlawful for us who have abandoned such trash and I rumpery to use but Papists have abused our Churches halices and other Ornaments in their fals Worship and Services therefore we may not use them but down with them down with them even to the Ground Dub. This indeed will be a very necessary consequent but a very costly one I fear the men that make this exception would not be very forward to Build them up again if Idolatry and Superstition were a just cause to make us lay aside our Surplices by the same reason we must pull down our Churches and upon the same accompt the Primitive Christians ought not to have eaten meat offered to Idols neither to have made use of the Heathens Tempels to celebrate the Worship and Service of the true God Firm. You see then how frivilous the exception against the Surplice is and so are all those that are offer'd against the Ring in Marriage bowing at the name of Jesus Kneeling at the Sacrament the Crosse after Baptisme and therefore I shall very briefly pass them over 1. For the Ring 't is as Antient at least as Turtullian who lived about two hundred Years after Christ he makes mention of it more then once and our Church do's use it as an ancient Ceremony no ways essential to Matrimony 2. Bowing at the name of Jesus is likewise very Antient The reason of it was 1. To shew our readiness to yield obedience and subjection to him as our Lord and King to whom all power both in Heaven and Earth is given and to whom every Knee must bow Phil. 2.10 The Antient Christians rather bowed at the naming of Jesus then at the name of Christ in opposition to the unbelieving Jews who most of all Blasphemed that sweet and saving name of Jesus which therefore they did indeavour the more highly to exalt 3. To declare their certain belief of what the Apostle forete●● that at the name of Iesus every Knee should bow of things in Heaven things in Earth and things under the Earth that all things should be subject unto him Phil. 2. 3. Kneeling at the Sacrament our Church conceives to be the most humble and reverend posture and therefore most suitable to so high and Heavenly a Mistery especially it being Administred with a Prayer yet we do not condemn the practise of other Churches where this holy Sacrament is received sitting or standing neither should they condemn us for Kneeling because Christ's Disciples receiv'd it in a Table gesture to which we are no more bound then to the place or time in which they reciv'd it An upper Room and after Supper as the learned Dr. Sanderson has evidently demonstrated 4. The Cross after Baptisme is also a very Antient Ceremony which the Christians of the first ages used in a couragious and undaunted opposition against the Heathens and Jews who scoffed and derided them for beleiving in and Worshiping a Crucified God for their Saviour who could not save himself True 't is in process of time the Cross was abused to grose Superstition and therefore say some it ought to be laid aside as Ezekias abollished the Brasen Serpent when the people made it an Idol Dub. Much more ought the Cross to be taken away being abused to superstition because 't was but an humane invention where as the Brasen Serpent was set up by Gods own direction and command Firm. Very true but then let Ezekias do it not the people on their own heads without the Authority of the King However the use of an innocent Ceremony ought not to be taken away because of ' its abuse and here it ought to be consider'd whether it be better to use the Cross to put us in mind of our duty not to be ashamed of Christ Crusifi'd as also of the courage and boldness of the Primitive Christians who not withstanding the Scoffs and Reproches of Infidels would make such open profession of their Faith in Christ Crucified as to use the sign of the Cross not only in Baptism but also upon sundry other occasions or else whether 't were better to forbear the use of it because it has been so much abused to Superstition let the Suprem power judge which of these is fittest to be done and determine accordingly either for the Negative or the Affirmative and I believe every sober and peacable Christian will esteem it his duty to submit unto such a determination Dub. But seing these and other ceremonies have been and are a great scandal to
justice of their cause are guilty before God os Treason Murder and Rebellion Dub. This censure is very severe and yet I cannot tell what to reply against it Many well meaning people observing certain abuses in Church and Common-wealth much desired a reformation of them and promised to themselves great things from the Long Parliament whereupon such is the brutish inclination of earnest desires and great expectations in the minds of men that are of short discourse that these poor inconsiderable persons were engaged against King and Country before they had well weighed That good Intentions cannot justify unlawful Actions That God has no need of the sinner That we must not do evil that good may come thereon But I am perswaded that these seduced men do see their former errors and are ●ruly penitent abominating from their hearts all Treasons and Rebellions against their Dread Sovereign and for the future will keep themselves from such unchristian practises Firm. I much commend you for your Chari●y and for those that had their hands in that grand Rebellion acd are no● truly penitent my hearty prayers are that the Lord would be merciful unto them and bless them and shew them the light of his countenance My severe censure as you were p●●ased ●o ●ail it was never intended against such but we see very few that have manifested any signal tokens of repentance for their lifting up their hands against the Lord 's Anointed rather we may fear they will commit the same wickedness against his Majestie that now swayes the Royal Scepter if they hid a fair opportunity Disobedience is a long step to Rebellion and is it not evident that our present Non-conformists are more disobedient more refractory against his Majesties Laws Ecclesiastical then those that lived before the late warrs who though they were Non-conformists yet were they not Separatists Brownists as our present Non-conformists for the most part are some of them Mr. as Ball in his Tryal of the grounds of Separation and others smartly wri●ng against such Fanati●ks And truly were there not a judicial blindness upon these men they might see by a wonderful providence the Lord did not own them in their Rebellious undertakings How strangely did their numerous and potent Armies dwindle into no thing ho● miraculously was our Gratious Soveraign preserved against all their Treasonable attempts and brought to the Throne of his Fathers with the greatest honor most general expressions of love and rejoycing that ever any Prince received from ●oyal Subjects and all this without the spil●ing of one drop of blood The Lord set it upon the heart of King and People to keep this sign●l dispensation of His Providence in perpetual remembrance not to ruine thēselves by Atheism Irreligion Profaneness or any enormous wickedness for which the wrath of God has b●en pou●ed out in full Viols upon wicked Kings and ungodly people as Sacred and other ●i●●ories do s●sficiently manifest Dub. It may be feared that there are discontented persons who are like wrangling Gamsters that having a bad game dealt them desire the Cards might be shuffl'd again that they might have a better Stock but I am perswaded many would conform were there a Toleration in Reference to some Ceremonies as has been said and the Renouncing of the Covenant not enjoyn'd Firm. You have had my opinion as to a Toleration in point of Ceremonies as to the Covenant tho it h●s been the opinion of several moderate men that it had been better if it had dyed without any such solemn Act for ' its Abrenunti●tion yet being it was peccant in all the four causes the Efficient Formal Material and Final 't was expedient in some respects for the Parliament to vote that it should be Renounced by all that expect Preferment in the Church of England and I do not see how any man who conceives himself bound by it can be a faithful Subject to His Prince besides there seems to be a signal judgment in it that the Covenant which was used as an Engine to remove the Cavaleers out of their Livings should have the same effect upon the Contrivers and ●igid Imposers of it for many of those were undon because they would not take it these because they would not Renounce it Nec lex est justior ulla Quam necis artifices arte perire sua 'T is Justice Law that he should feel the smart Who was first Author of that cruel Art I remember what Tacitus sayes of Cajus Vibius Eò immitior quia toleraverat And 't is like that the Cavileers having such a hard measure from the imposition of the Covenant would when power was in their hands make use of the Law of Retaliation by driving on the Act for Renouncing the Covenant and peradventure in some men there might be a grain or more of the Spirit of Revenge not beseeming Christian Charity how ever 't is a remarkable peice of Divine Providence that those who Pressed the Covenant upon their Brethren without mercy should suffer by it without mercy Dub. But as long as men have so little of a Christian spirit in them as to act by the Law of Retaliation of Spite and Revenge there is little of Peace and Unity to be expected Firm. We ought not to judge Acts of Parliament to be the Efforts of Revenge and Spite as for the Act about the Covenant there was some kind of necessity for it as to make tryal who were Loyal and Obedient Subjects who not for as 't was said before he that conceives himself bound by the Scotc●-Chaine cannot be a good English Subject However if the Suspending of that Act would assuredly unite us in Love and Peace I hartily wish that 't were not prest upon those that are of a quiet and peaceable Spirit agreeing with us in the most necessary Points of Religion that so we that have one Faith one Baptisme one Hope one Lord Iesus Christ one God the Father of all might keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of Peace which is both our duty and our interest if we consider what advantage the Papists make of those divisions which are too many amongst us the Seeds whereof have been Sown by the Roman-Emissarys Dub. 'T is not to be doubted but that peace and unity and love among our selves would much dishearten those restless Enemies of our Church and State who le●ve no Stone unturn'd to divide us that they might Reign over us and perswade us by their most cogent Arguments which are Gun-Powder Fire and Fagot Bloody Massacres to embrace their gross Superstition and cause Religion and Primitive Christianity to flourish in our miserable divided Nation while that time which is now spent in vain wranglements and un-Christian contentions would be better imploy'd in devout Prayer Holy Meditation in Mortification of our Corruptions in duties of Piety towards Almighty God of Love Mercy and Charity one towards another And now Sir give me leave to pay you my very hearty acknowledgments for the profitable pains which you have taken to bring me out of those Bracks and Bogs of Atheisme Infidelity Schisme and Heresy unto my Old Mother the Church of Engl●nd in whose Faith and Communion Thou O Father of Mercies Prince of Peace and God of all Consolation ever blessed and most Sacred Trinity ● grant that I may continue unto ●y Lives end and that I may so continue I beg your daily Prayers Firm. 'T is our great Christian duty to Pray one for another I shall not be wanting in the performance of it for your establishment in the true Ancient Catholick Christianity and I earnestly beseech you to remember me in your frequent intercessions and supplications at the Throne of Grace Blessed be the God of all power and wisdome who has thus prosper'd my weak endeavours in converting you from the error of your waies I will ad no more but this that you be true to the Doctrine Worship Discipline of our Church as they are contain'd in the Articles Liturgie Canons and Rubricks of it hold not any truth in Unrighteousness let your practise shew to the World that you truly and heartily believe what you profess be honest just in your Dealings towards men Temperate and Sober towards your selfe serious and single hearted in all duties of piety towards God and whatsoever things are honest whatsoever things are true whatsoever things are just Holy Lovely of good report Think on these things Practise these things make not the actions of men the Customs and Examples of these loose and evil Times humane Laws your rule to walk by but let the holy will and word of God be the adequate measure of your Life and Conversation walk conscientiously according to this rule and Peace and Mercy shalll be upon you as a true Israelite and one of Gods Peculiar People Amen FINIS ERRATA PAge 9. l. 11. read Dependent p. 12. l. 10. for puting r. putting p. 21. for their r. there p. 22. l. 3. leave our whether they be Pagans or Christians I know not p. 38. l. 12. for Statues r. statutes p. 70 l. 26. ● some of the Church p. 83. l. 12. for suspition r. superstition p. 104. l. 20. potius ad bene esse quam simpliciter ad esse is misplaced p. 113. ●r ● ●ot ●ankfulness p. 116.25 r. licence p. 119. l. 22. r. clear p. 121. l. 25. ● who was of p. 123. l. 22. r. incorporated p. 126. l. 28. r that have ruled well p. 129. l. 13. r. stiled p. 132. l 29. r. that sit at the Stern p. 133. l. 22. r. but not the end p. 136. l. ● r. throw away p. 138. l. 19. r. by phansies p 140. l. 30. r. assistance p. 155. l. 15. r. ●●t●rio●sly ibid. 2● 1 suspension p. 1●5 l. ●3 r. suspensions † Dr. Moors Antidote and Dr. Stillings●eets Orig. Sacrae p●g 395. R. B. C●●visse videas crescere non vides see Mr. Pools Nullity of the Roman Faith Cen●●l 〈◊〉 S●ss 12. C●n. 1. Non imagini s●d numini sacrificamus Ae Mr Fowes History 2 Cor. 10.4 Prov. 24. Eccle. 8.2 Rom. 13.1 Pet. 2. Ier. 4.2 Deut. 6.13 Heb. 6.16 2. Cor. 1. Rev. 10.6 1 Cor. 1.14 Act. 2. Math. 28. 1. Cor. 9. ●po● 2.3 † 'T was not long since that some of the Presbyterian a●d I●pendent perswasion were Deans and Ca●ons of Christ Church in Oxford such D●gnities not then thought to be useless and A●●i-christian why should they be esteemed so now