Selected quad for the lemma: lord_n

Word A Word B Word C Word D Occurrence Frequency Band MI MI Band Prominent
lord_n damnation_n drink_v eat_v 10,899 5 8.2264 4 false
View all documents for the selected quad

Text snippets containing the quad

ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A16691 The rasing of the foundations of Brovvnisme Wherein, against all the writings of the principall masters of that sect, those chiefe conclusions in the next page, are, (amongst sundry other matters, worthie the readers knowledge) purposely handled, and soundely prooued. Also their contrarie arguments and obiections deliberately examined, and clearly refelled by the word of God. Bredwell, Stephen. 1588 (1588) STC 3599; ESTC S106388 120,820 166

There are 3 snippets containing the selected quad. | View lemmatised text

or else in respect of vs that so iudge and esteeme of them Now that the very presence it selfe of the wicked hindreth not it is clere by the storie of the institution of the Supper by our Lord Iesus himself who would not haue suffred that wicked Iudas to haue bene present at the celebrating of the feast if the very presence of a wicked man could haue depriued the rest of the benefit of the action Besides this point should cause vs continually to doubt in the action because there may be some hypocrite vnworthy receiuer alway amongst vs and yet his sinnes so secretly caried as the Church cannot detect him But I suppose you will say that the presence of the wicked hindreth the cōmunion of the faithful in respect of those faithfull that see such amongst them as are vnworthy communicants I answere First if the making voyd the benefit of the Sacrament depend vpon the knowledge that the faithfull haue of the vnworthynes of some that are present then you grant me thus much that as many of the faithful as are not priuy to such presence so many do soundly enioy the benefit of the Sacrament Nowe then let vs see howe it commeth that the rest should be depriued That the presence of the vn worthy in respect of the knowledge and priuity of some of the faithful there present cannot any way hinder the action to them I proue it thus and putting the case by your selfe I say particularly you your self if otherwise in Christ you come worthy cannot be damnified by another in that a ion For this sentence is perpetual and vniuersall The righteousnesse of the righteous shall bee vppon him and the wickednesse of the wicked shall bee vpon himselfe You wil aske mee but if I see one there that I esteeme vnworthy howe can I outwardly ioyne with him and not be partaker with his sinne I answere first our esteeming of any vnworthy cōmeth either by heare-say or our own certain knowledge That which cometh by heare-say is to bee beleeued no further than the credit and competencie of the witnesses doe reach If they haue bene truely reported or our selues haue knowne any thing by them then no doubt if we haue walked wisely and faithfully wee haue also proceeded by admonitions so farre with them as that it is sufficiently knowne we hate their sinne Which course if you shal obserue is there any more required at the hands of you a particular member and if you haue thus walked towards them in the vprightnes of our conscience doing the dueties of a particular member to your fellow members how can the presence of any vnworthy one which you see there hinder the benefit of the communion vnto you For the righteousnesse of the righteous shall bee ●ppon him and the wickednesse of the wicked shall bee vppon himselfe If you obiect that we haue not an Eldershippe and that therefore you cannot proceed by admonition in such sort as is appoynted by the word I answere that hindereth not but that you may so farre sufficiently make knowne your hatred to sinne in whomsoeuer as may testifie against and giue euident checke to the prophane presumptiō of any vnworthy ones in your knowledge Neither are you herein to feare ioyning with such which you doe not because they presume to the Lords table at the same time that you come For the action is spiritual and the ioyning spiritual by one faith in Christ Iesus Which faith as you haue in common onely with the faithfull so are you incorporated vnto Iesus Christ onely with the faithfull The rest may be said to be at the Communion but yet are none of the Cōmunion according as S. Paule saith They eat and drinke their owne damnation But you wil say as touching the outward sensible ioining I am not to bee excused Yes your former protesting against their sinne doth clere the matter to the full peace of your cōscience inasmuch as there is frō the Lord no further power granted to any particular mēber But it semeth by your quotations you wil deny this to be true And because the places mētion separating shūning the cōpanie of inordinat brethren you wil gather frō thence to separate your self frō the Cōmunion if you espie any vnworthy ones there Indeed if you proue that euery particular mēber of a cōgregatiō hath this power then haue they far more thā I haue spoken of but this wilbe found a chiefe thing wherin you haue ouershot your self By the scriptures that you quote you say it maybe proued That we are forbidden to eate with such or to haue felowship with thē vnles it be in worldly affairs Now if your exceptiō of worldly affaires be wel gathered then this is it you would say That those places of scripture do proue that we are directly forbidden to eate or outwardly ioine with thē at the Lords table I haue considred the places and am sory to see you so mis-taught I would you had drawn one argumēt out of your 6. places that I might quickly haue seene your building I am Perswaded if you had heard the places but read vnto you without the peruers wresting of others you wold haue vnderstood them more truly than now ye haue applied thē I returne them therefore againe to your better cōsideratiō protesting vnto you in the feare of the Lord that if you examine them in the humilitie of your heart with a simple desire of the truth you will see and testifie that without great wrōg doing to the word of grace you cannot conclude frō those places that either we are forbidden the outward ioining at the Lordes table or else haue libertie giuē vs in worldly affaires as you terme it to vse familiar conuersation with inordinat brethren For it is most certain euident that in all those places read them who will the precept and admonition of the Apostle is concerning priuate conuersation and behauiour towards inordinat professors there being not a syllable set downe touching our dealings in publike Churches meetings exercises But here although your euidence haue thus failed it wilbe required perhaps at my hands that I set down some profes to the cōtrary to the ouerthrow of this your opiniō to make my last argument the strōger which was that a particular member hath no further to deal in this case than by proces of admonitiō 1. Remēber that the church is the body of christ who is the head ther of This body also consisteth of many mēbers hauing distinct offices placing which body as also euery mēber therof receiue from the head life increase but so as that they be not sundred distract but set together by ioints seames with loue Now if the church be thus reckoned the body in respect of the head whervnto it groweth the particular mēbers be mēbers of the same body in respect that they grow cōtinue in it serue vnto the vse
places to bee restrained within due regards of circumstances and conferences of other scriptures as within the naturall intended listes and necessarie described compasse of the holy Ghost that vttered them For example the Lord saide vnto Iacob Thy name shal not from henceforth be called Iacob but Israel Againe speaking by his Prophet he sayth For I spake not to your fathers nor commanded them when I brought them out of the land of Egypt concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices And Paule sayeth likewise in another place Christ sent me not to baptise but to preach the Gospel Let these three suffice for the rest Now we knowe that Iacob was called Iacob afterwarde but not onely by that name The Israelites were commaunded burnt offerings and sacrifices but so as chiefly to beholde in them the Messias to come Also we knowe Paule did baptize therefore when hee sayeth I was not sent to baptize hee giueth vs to vnderstande that the chiefe dutie and charge of his Apostleship was to preach the Gospel in comparison whereof the baptising hee vsed was not to be spoken off Nowe seeing the holy Ghost thus in other places vseth the like generall negation which must bee so limitted as I speake of maruaile not though in this place also he denie that to be done by the Corinthians which was not done as it should be by many or perhaps by the most of them Now for the arguments which he forceth vpon the Apostle I say he is too bold to snatch that which the Apostle neuer meant to giue him and that in two points For neither doth the Apostle affirme that the essentiall fourme of the institution was violated nor yet that the foule abuses committed were done by them all The first I prooue thus When Paule had said VVhen you come together in one this is not to eate the Lords Supper immediatly he sheweth them the reason why For saith he Euerie one in eating taketh first his owne Supper and so one is hungrie but another druncken Heere is nothing controlled touching the substantiall fourme of the institution which consisteth in the consecration and distribution of the bread and wine but onely the disorder that was among them in disposing of themselues and vsing it against which he opposeth the repetition of the institution as he had deliuered the same vnto them before and that being done in the 23.24.25 verses he therehence deducteth that thing in the 26. verse which he would afterwards and doth apply to their reproofe euen to the verie ende of the cause Now neither is that same thing any whit of the fourme of the institution but onely touching the vse and end wherevnto they should haue prepared and applied themselues in that action Like as the most cleere stroke of that sentence plainely and onely soundeth in these words For as often as you shall eate this bread and drinke this cup you shall declare the Lords death vntill he come The things in them disagreeable to this and therefore to be blamed he declareth to be that there was of the riche of them which respected chiefely to feast and feede their bellies in that comming together and made no difference by their behauiour betweene the holie Supper of our Lord and ciuill banquettings Now seeing the Apostle thus particularizeth these offences of the Corinthian communicants and withall specifieth nothing to be reprooued in the Ministers touching the fourme of the institution who is he that dares beleeue this presumptuous spirit who careth not what he faceth vpon the word of God to mainteine whatsoeuer his corrupt braine hath once conceiued The second point which I sayd he snatcheth is that he auoucheth these abuses among the Corinthian Communicants to haue beene committed by them all Which thus I refell To retaine all the Apostle his traditions euen as he had deliuered them to the Corinthians and yet all those same Corinth to transgresse them in no lesse matter then in celebrating the Lords Supper are two things directly contrary But the Apostle testifieth for them in the first therefore he chargeth them not with the latter That he testifieth the first appeareth where he beginneth with this exhortation Be yee followers of me euen as I am of Christ and immediatly subioyneth I praise you brethren that you remember all my things and retaine the traditions as I deliuered them vnto you Wherby it is manifest that the Apostle addressing himselfe to those points whereof he was informed touching the vnseemely behauiour that was among them at Praier and at the Lords Supper first confirmeth the minds and approueth the iudgemēts of such brethren as had soundly vpheld the truth in those things and afterwards deliuereth that which the guilty should find themselues reproued in 2. That some withstood that prophane disorder polluted not themselues with the rest in their behauiour at the Lords Supper it is necessarily inferred vpō that Paule saith There were dissentions among them euen at their cōming together at the Lords Supper This is the first thing in that matter whereof he sheweth his dislike but withall confirmeth such as held the truth affirming that greater matters then those yea euen heresies should grow among thē by which they should be so far frō being damnified that contrariwise they should become more manifest famous by thē And as the Apostle in this verse voydeth these of the feare of that conclusion he had set down before to wit that they came together not with profit but with hurt pointing the same now directly to be applied to that part which gaue the occasion of dissention So likewise doth he therby as manifestly declare that he includeth not all the Corinth in the reprehēsiōs that follow 3. If they were all alike in this offence then were they all a disordered wicked cōpany and so in all mens eyes ten times worse in euery point of celebrating the Lords Supper then the assemblies of England are from which notwithstāding he laboureth thus with all his strength to draw hold you Now if the Corinthiā church was fallen wholy to be a grosse disordered cōpany and your leader holdeth plainly that open grosse wickednes breaketh the couenant it followeth that they had also broken the couenāt so by flat cōsequence could not be a Church of God whē Paul thus wrote vnto thē which me think should be clearer then any candell to make you see your leaders impudēcy who blusheth not by this meanes to giue the Apostle the lye to his teeth Hence as by the way this may be deducted which I aduise you well to consider Either the Corinth Church was now no Church of God nor brotherhood for faithfull men to resort and keepe thē to or else a Church of far greater disorder in cōming together to the Lords Table then ours of England particularly of this congregation is ought yet to be holden a Church of God brotherhod for faithful mē
to resort keepe vnto But the first is false saith the same Apostle in the place last quoted therefore the latter standeth firme cannot be denied of any that with the least indifferency cōpareth our cōmunicating with theirs For if you wil obiect they had the right order of discipline so haue not we that maketh them the greatlier in fault aboue vs as hauing more meanes in their hands yet came shorter of a holy profession in outward behauior then we and so sealeth vp my conclusion more surely to conuince you But I returne againe to my former purpose I hope I haue made it manifest that neither the forme of the institution was violated by the Corinthians nor yet the abuses committed were done by them all And now I suppose it will not be hard to prooue that the most vnworthie among them did also eate the outward sacrament First if those had not eaten the sacrament at all they could not haue beene charged with eating the bread and drinking the cup of the Lord vnwoorthelie without discerning his bodie and so to their condemnation But they are charged so therefore we must needes graunt they did eate it The assumption is prooued in the 30. verse saying For this cause many among you are weake and sick and many sleepe Wherein the Apostle by these effectes leadeth them to acknowledge the cause namely their sinne such and so as he had propounded it in the 27. 29. verses Whereby behold and if you will suffer the point of truth to pearce into your heart cast out that furious spirit that saith The Communion can not be good to one partie and bad to another and acknowledge by this case of the Corinthians that manifest indignities may be committed by some and apparant vnworthie ones may communicate with others when they cannot be remoued and neither disanull the sacrament nor yet infect or make guilty all the Communicants with their sinne Neither doth this place alone affoord this instruction for you but euen that place of Iude also where inueying against such filthy professors as whose grosse sinnes could not be altogether secrete in any Church wheresoeuer they liued yet doth he graunt it might come to passe that they should impudently thrust themselues into the Church feastes of charitie wherein also the Lords Supper then vsed to be celebrated though so also they should be but as spots and staines therein In the which place neither doth the Apostle once insinuate that the action should thereby be disanulled vnto them nor all to be made wicked by their meanes in communicating yea contrarywise implyeth to the comfort of the godly that they might by prayer through the holie Ghost in the circumspect obseruing one another keepe both themselues and others from the contagion of all such Now I woulde wishe you W. F. and all of your learning to fixe your eyes heere a little in the meditating of these two places and amongst other things bethinke you what was the cause that neither Paule in consideration of that great disorder in the Church at Corinth nor yet Iude in respect of those wicked ones which he calleth spots in the Church feastes no nor Iohn that I may touch you vtterly to the quick in testifying that Church to be ambitiously vsurped vpon ouerweyed and therefore corrupted in the discipline do yet in the least syllable directly or indirectly account those assemblies thoroughly leauened or the couenant broken or yet perswade any of them to withdrawe from the rest and to gather a part And after you haue diligently sought and considered it may be you shall finde no cause but this namely that the Apostles were as farre from your leaders minde and iudgement in this matter as Heauen and Hell are distant and deuided asunder Now against his odious repetitions and senselesse collections I oppose the plainenes and simplicitie of mine answeres but where I call our dealings by admonition and labouring for the Church censures a kind of protesting against the sinne of the vnworthy he mistaketh me as though I meant an open excepting against thē at the Lords table 12 I say there is no further power giuen to a particular member in proceeding against the vnworthy than by processe of admonition Your replier vrgeth me with diuers Scriptures which he supposeth warrant me some further proceeding The first is Giue not that which is holy vnto dogs Inasmuch as this may be brought to Church assemblies it belongeth to the practise of the whole ioyntly not to a particular member seuerally and alone like as other precepts also of Church gouernement The second is Let him be vnto thee as an heathen and publican that is to say when the Church hath for his sinne separated him for so his binding by the Church is set down in the next verse with the efficacy therof to bridle the obstinate and stiff-necked The third is If an Angell from heauen or Paule preach otherwise hold him accursed I hold him for a cursed instrument of Sathan and not a blessed seruant of God whosoeuer bringeth vs another doctrine then the Lord hath left vs in his word but what is this to the purpose in hand His fourth and fifth places Be not thou partaker of other mens sinne and follow not a multitude to do euill I haue answered before where I haue shewed how far and in what sort we may partake with the vnworthy in the Sacrament and haue proued it to be without guilt of their sin The like I answere to his other two places out of Timothy He quoteth Ierem. 1.17.18 If he meant that euery priuate man should take vpō him as with Ieremies cōmission either for the parts of his duty towards the Church or the manner of carying himselfe in his place he seduceth you dangerously for so euery priuate man may publikely denounce the iudgemēts of God against Princes Ministers people contend with them all if they faile in their duty yea if they but iudge them to faile in their duty for I trow he wil not ascribe to them such sure reuelations as had the Prophet and so what should an Eldership do in the Church yea or any other gouernors whē as if they proceed not according to my expectation in any thing I so any priuate man may disanull their doings If otherwise he cite the place but for the generall doctrine that may therehence be deriued vnto all namely whatsoeuer the Lord cōmandeth any of vs to do be it a matter that seeme neuer so dangerous fearefull to vs that we obserue to do it to the vttermost without fearing the faces of any if I say he quote the place for this let him know that whē he shall proue particular members of a Church to haue receiued such a commandement frō the Lord as is heere in question then this place of the Prophet Iere. shal make for his cause in the meane time I cannot but iudge