spirituall eatinge and the reall eatynge must needes go so together that the one can not be wythout the other CATHOLICVS That is not trew excepte it be in beleefe For therein they must needes go alway together But els so muche they dyffer and are some tyme a sonder that an infidele may chaunce to eate it really but yet for lacke of faythe neuer spiritually And a good Christen man may eate it spiritually althoughe thorow some lawfull impediment he eate it not reallie Wherefore by thys it is cleare that all the sort of you whyche denieth it as Frithe doeth to be eaten really without doubt do neuer eate it spiritually Wher in your tortuous and eluishe doctrine doeth most manifestly appere For ye holde wyth that whiche ye neuer do And vtterly deny that whiche ye dayly do HERE How so CATH Ye graunt and holde with the spirituall eatinge of Christes holy fleshe which eatinge without fayle ye neuer come to And ye stifly deny the reall eatinge of it which eatinge in deede ye often and commonly do And therfore when ye do that whiche your selues denie how is it done but vnworthyly and wherto tendeth that but as the Apostle sayeth to your owne dampnation but now I let that passe and to an other place of Saynt Austen where hys owne wordes be these Sicut audiuimus cum sanctum euangelium legeretur dominus Iesus Christus exortatus est promissione vitae aeternae ad manducandam carnem suam bibendum sanguinem suum Qui audistis haec non dum omnes intellexistis Qui enim baptizati fideles estis quid dix erit nostis Qui autem inter vos adhuc Cathecumini vel audientes vocantur potuerunt esse cum legeretur audientes nunquid intelligentes Ergo sermo noster ad vtrosque dirigitur Qui iam manducant carnem domini bibunt sanguinem eius cogitent quid manducent quid bibant ne sicut Apostolus dixit Iuditium sibi manducent bibant Qui autem non dum manducant non dum bibunt ad tales epulas inuitati festiment Per istos dies magistratus pascunt Christus quotidie pascit mensa ipsius est illa in medio constituta Quid causae est O audientes vt mensam videatis ad epulas non accedatis Et forte modo cum euangelium legeretur dixistis in cordibus vestris putamus quid est quod dicit Caro mea vere esca est sanguis meus vere potus est Quomodo manducatur caro domini bibitur sanguis domini Putamus quid dicit Quis contra te clausit vt hoc nescias Velatum est Sed si volueris erit reuelatum Accede ad professionem soluisti quaestionem Quid enim dixerit dominus IESVS iam fideles nouerunt Tu autem Cathecuminus diceris Audiens surdus es Aures enim corporis patentes habes quia verba quae dicta sunt au dis Sed aures cordis adhuc clausas habes quia quod dictum est non intelligis Whiche may thus be Englished When the holy gospell was red as wee haue herde our Lorde Iesus exhorted vs to the eatinge of his fleshe and drinkinge of hys bloud with the promyse of euerlasting lyfe You whyche haue hearde these thynges do not yet all vnderstande them For you whiche are baptized and are faythfull doeth knowe what he sayde But those amonge you whiche are yet called Cathecumini or hearers may be hearers but therein vnderstanders thynke you Therefore our sermon is directed vnto bothe Nowe those whyche doeth eate the fleshe of our Lorde and drynke hys bloud lette them take heede what they eate and what they drynke leaste as the Apostle sayeth they eate and drinke it to theyr owne dampnation But let them whiche doeth not yet eate nor yet drynke beynge inuited make haste vnto suche dayntes For in these dayes magistrates doeth eate Chryst doeth dayly feede That table of his is set in the middes What is the cause O ye herers that ye see the table and come not to the delicates perchaunce now when the gospell was redde you sayde in your hartes perceiue wee what it is that he saith my fleshe is verely meate and my blood is verily drynke how is the fleshe of the lorde eaten and the blood of the lorde dronken perceiue we what he saith who hath hid it from the that thou knowest it not hid it is But if thou wilt it shall be opened Come to the profession and thou hast solued the question For those that be now faithfull knowth what our lord Iesus sayd But thou art called an herer and yet in heryng thou arte deaffe For thou hast the eares of the body open because thou herest the woordes whiche are spoken But thou hast the eares of the hart yet shut because thou vnderstandest not that whiche is said Now meaneth Saint Austen here nothyng els by all these playne words of eatyng and drynkyng of Christes holy fleshe and blood but onely faith and beleefe which only Frith doth call the spirituall eatyng and drynking thereof saiyng there is none other but that Therfore is it onely that eatyng and drinkyng whereunto Saint Austen doth here inuite those which he calleth Cathecumini or heres who hath feith as he sayd before and doth beleue in the name of Christe all ready and beareth his crosse in their forheades is it also that eatyng and drynkyng that is to say onely faith and beleefe Wherevnto he doth here inuite them with the name and promise of deinties and delicates set vpon the table the name of the table deintes or delicates pretēdeth declareth an other maner of eatynge and drynkynge then is onely feith and beleefe if thou loke well vpon it moreouer is only faith and belefe that same eating and drinking which as he saith our sauiour Christe doth exhort vs vnto with the promise of euerlastyng lyfe when the Cathecuminus as he doth also declare hath faith and doth beleue in the name of Christ and yet cummeth not to this eating and drinking that Saint Austen speaketh of Is it not also that eating and drinking that is to say only faith and belefe wherof he saith let them whiche doth eate the fleshe of our lord and drinke his blood take hede what they eate what they drinke lest as thapostle saith they eate it and drinke it to their own damnacion He saith not how they eate how they drinke but what they eate what they drinke And what meaneth he by that same what very bread in a bare significacion as Frith doth take it did not those Cathecumini or herers take it so whom S. Austen doth reprehēd wherfore did he blame them but because they beleued therin to be nothing els but only that wherin they were deceiued to How be it after Frithes vnderstandyng it is all one to say let them take bede what they eate and what they drynke and to say let them take
the woordes of Christes supper he addeth vnto it these woordes For sith he called it saith Frith a foule and a wicked thing to eate his fleshe then may you soone perceiue that he thought it as foule and as wicked a thinge to eate his body seyng his bodie is fleshe And then consequently it shall folow that other this woord eate where Christe saide take this and eate it must be taken spiritually or els that this saiyng of Christe This is my body muste be figuratiuely spoken But this woorde eate is taken after the letter for they did in deede eate the bread therfore it must needes folow that this sentence This is my body must be figuratiuely spoken Now haue you hearde what he saieth and gathereth of it him selfe CATH Than saiyst trew And therfore shall I neede to byd thee marke his false lye that he maketh here agayne of Saint Austen For doth Saint Austen call it a fowle and a wicked thynge as this lyar sayth he doothe when he sayth no more but that the scripture therin seemeth to commaunde an euyll or a wicked thyng Saint Austen nother calleth it so him selfe nor yet doth say that the scripture calleth it or commaundeth it so nother He saith the scripture so mech to commaunde suche a thynge And doth not say the scripture doth commaunde it But in deede to commaunde and seme to commaunde to call and seme to cal or to be seeme to be is all one with Frith As who say there is nothing otherwyse then it semeth to be nor any thyng semeth to be otherwise then it is HE. Sir ye can not auoyde his argument so CATH His argument what is that HERE Ye haue harde how he dooeth say that Either this word eate which Christ said take this rate it must be taken spiritually or els that this saiynge of Christ This is my bodi must be figuratiuely spoken But this woorde â—ate saith he is taken after the letter for they did he saieth eate the bread therfore it must needes folow that this sentence This is my body must be fyguratiuely spoken CATHOLICVS I meruayle where Frythe learned this kynde of argumente whiche can brynge forth such a woorthy conclusion For dooth it not properly folow that this sentence This is my body muste be figuratiuely taken because as he saith this woorde eate is taken after the letter And this he doothe but say without any proofe at all HERE That is not so For he dooth proue that this woorde Eate is taken after the letter CATH That is but a parte of it and yet for all thy saiyng he proueth not that nother HERE Yes he proueth it by this that as he saith they did eate the bread CATH Ye but that I denye For without question they dyd eate that which they were byd to eate whereof it was to them sayde Take eate This is my body whiche shalbe geuen for you And that was not breade except thou wilt say that bread was geuen for their redempcion And therfore where he saith that this woorde bread is taken after the letter And therof would haue it folow that this sentence This is my body muste be figuratiuely spoken I aske him why figuratiuely more then lytterally or why fyguratiuelie and not rather litterally For if the woorde of eatynge he taken after the letter dooth it not thereof muche better folowe that the woordes of that whiche is eaten shulde be taken after the latter likewise To take the woord of eatynge in a litteral sence and therfore the woordes of the thyng eaten is a figuratiue sence is more strange then I can skil of Yet the one saieth he must needes folow the other But by what reason although no man can tell yet to such as will needes beleue him it is good enough although it be neuer so false and foolishe to any man els And therefore sith it appereth in the .47 leafe of his booke that he taketh not the eatynge of Christes body but onely for the beleuynge in him I aske him why may not this woord Eate be taken spiritually as well as this text This is my body be spoken figuratiuely or why may not the same text be taked litterally as wel as this woorde Eate be taken after the letter sith thes be so ioyned together HERE Because there is a great difference betwene them CATH Ye that is as Frith woulde haue vs take them but not as our sauiour Christe in the vnitee of sence and sentence together doth ioyne them For there is no doubte but the meanynge of this woorde Eate and also the meanynge of this same saiynge of Christe This is my bodye are bothe together of him so inseperably kint and conteyned in this one sentence Except ye eate the fleshe of the sonne of man and drynke his blood ye shall not haue life in you That they both maketh one perfit sentence and sence whether thou take it to be litterall or spirituall And therfore by this one lesson aforesayde it maye well appere that they can not so differ in sence but that they muste other be bothe spirituall and not literall or bothe litterall and not spirituall or els bothe not onely spirituall but also lytterall Wherefore Frythe can not saye that they be bothe spirituall and not litterall because he sayeth â—he an◠〈◊〉 them that is to saie this woorde Eate is taken after the letter Againe he can not say that they are both litterall and not spirituall because he dothe both holde and say that the other which is This is my body must be taken figuratiuely that is to say spiritually And therfore it must needes folow that they be bothe not only spirituall but also litterall Cap. 11. HHERE. Syr that can not be For as I was about to tell you before Frithe bringeth Saynt Austen playne agaynst it CATH How so HERE Looke you in the .23 leafe of hys booke and there shall ye finde how he dothe alledge Saynt Austen bothe in Latin and also in Englishe in these wordes Quando loquebatur dominus noster Iesus Christus de corpore suo Nisi Inquit quis manducauerit carnem meam et biberit sanguinem meum non habet in se vitam Caro enim mea vere est cibus et Sanguis meus vere est potus Intellectus spiritualis credentem saluum facit quia littera occidit Spiritus est qui viuificat That is to say When our Lorde Iesus Christe spake of his body excepte quod he a man eate my fleshe and drinke my bloud he shall haue no life in him false For my fleshe is very meat and my bloud is very drinke The spiritual vnderstanding saueth him that beleueth for the letter killeth but the spirit quickeneth Here you see playne that Saynt Austen is clearly agaynst the litterall sence CATH Whether he be or not it is Frithes minde therein whiche I require HE. That shall ye haue for his owne wordes vpon the same place be these Here maye you playnelie
be so and not onely so HERE Ye why not Cap. 18. CATHOLI Then if thou rest vpon that what if Frith knew not what the spirituall vnderstandynge of it is HERE Yes that I dare saie he did CATH Then he wolde haue geuen it a difinicion and made it certaine before he had wrought anie conclusion thervpon as euery threw and wyse persuader dothe in what so euer he taketh vpon him to proue But this we see he did not And why but other because he was therin ignoraunt and therfore coulde not do it or els because he was of such a malicious falshed that though he could ye he wolde not doe it Which is of the twayn most lyke to be trew For he saw perchance that if he had made a good difinicion or playne distinction betwene the spirituall and the carnall vnderstandyng therof it should not only not haue serued but also clene haue destroied his purpose altogether And therfore he chose rather to roue at a vēture thē to shote at any mark certein wherfore let vs seke out the certeinte of this spirituall vnderstandyng And that once had wee shall soone see whether he went about to bring it to light or els to hyde it all together or no. For he will not deny but that Saynt Austen and other olde auncient fathers and doctors of the holy church did certeinly know it when he pretendeth to proue all his purpose moste chiefely by them HERE I graunt that for them he wil not deny CATH Then remember thou well what I haue hytherto sayd And let vs returne to thexaminacion of that which thou hast recited all ready out of the 21. leafe of his booke HERE Marry sir that is how Christe to those that beleued him not did say Doth this offende you what if ye shall see the sonne of man ascendynge thyther where he was before Then addeth S. Austen saith he you shal know that he ment not to geue his fleshe to eate with your teeth For he shall ascende hole c. CATHOLICVS Is this Saint Austens saiynge vpon those woordes of Christ HERE So saith Frith CATH Therefore here thou shalt see once agayne what Frith was For if it were not for auoyding of tediousnesse I woulde recite vnto the the very woordes of S. Austen vpon those words of Christe both in latine and also in english but his woords in latine turned into englishe shall be sufficient which are euen very these Christe answerynge sayd Dothe this offende you that I sayde I geue you my flesshe to eate and my bloodde to drynke This offendeth you in deede Therefore what if ye see the sonne of man ascendynge thyther where he was before What is this By this he eased some whom he knew By this he opened wherwith they were offended Wherwith vtterly if they woulde haue vnderstande it For they thought him to deuyde and distribute his body But he sayde he wolde ascende into heauen euen whole When ye shall see the sonne of man ascendinge where he was before ye shall certaynlie see euen then that he distributeth not his body in that maner that you thinke Ye shall euen then certenly vnderstande that his grace is not with bytinges consumed Now where is this that Frithe sayeth of Saynt Austen You shall know that he ment not to geue his fleshe to eate with your teethe Where is this I saye where is it in deede it can not be founde And therefore in the steede of that thys we finde that Frithe was nothinge ashamed of his lies For if he had he wolde neuer haue put so many of them in his writinges as he did And besides this what faute is there here founde with those vnbeleuers of Christe whiche vnderstode him not in this matter HERE This faute That their vnderstandinge ranne vpon the fleshe of Christ CATH That is false For their faute was not therin but it was in their misvnderstanding of the maner of it as here Saynt Austen in playne wordes doeth well declare they thought him to deuyde and distribute his body peece mele And that misvnderstandinge doeth Christes question touche directly sayinge What yf ye see the sonne of man ascendynge where he was before What were this question of his hoole body to the purpose if it were not to confound and ouerthrow their misvnderstandinge of the diuision therof in partes for by this he opened as Saynt Austen sayeth wherewith they were offended Whiche was with the distribution and erogation of his body in partes as they thought So that their faute for whiche they are here reprehended was for that they gaue no farther credence to Christ in the maner of geuyng his fleshe to eate then theyr owne imagination and blinde vnderstandinge did leade them vnto And not for that they thought hys meanynge to be of hys owne very fleshe in deede For whiche thinking of his owne very fleshe they bare here no smake of any blame at all as they should haue done if it had bene a faute so to thinke Wherefore this thou mayst see how very nothinge this place maketh for Frithe notwithstandinge all the great trust that he had therin Cap. 19. HERE Ye but syr ye must consider that as you haue herde Frithe goeth farther then this Saying euen there Christ addeth It is the spirite that quickeneth the fleshe profiteth nothinge This text excludeth all vnderstanding of flesh and driueth vs to the spirit altogether CATH There Frithe wolde haue it indeede But why doeth he not bringe in Saynt Austen there as well vpon this text The fleshe profiteth nothinge As he wolde make vs beleue he doeth vpon this other before It is the spirit that quickeneth Sythe they ioyne so nere together as immediatly one text after an other can do HERE He thought it was no neede because this The fleshe profiteth nothinge is so playne of it selfe CATH It is harde to finde thee without an excuse But neuerthelesse thou shalt here what Saynt Austen sayeth of it for all that And then iudge why Frith did passe it ouer For Saynt Austens wordes turned into englishe are euen these What is this sayth Saynt Austen that he putteth to it it is the spirit that quickeneth the flesh profiteth nothing let vs say vnto hym because he suffreth vs not speakinge contrary but coueting to know O good lorde and mayster how doth fleshe profit nothing when thou hast sayd except a man eate my fleshe and drinke my bloud he shall not haue lyfe in hym doth lyfe profit nothing And for what pupose are we that we are but that we might haue euerlasting life whiche thou hast promysed with thy flesh Therfore what is it profiteth nothing the fleshe profiteth nothinge but as they vnderstode it for they vnderstode fleshe so as it is rent or torne in a dead carkas or as it is soulde in the shambles and not as it is quickened with the spirite Therfore so it is sayde the fleshe profiteth nothinge as it is sayde science puffeth vp Now therfore ought
other why as I sayde before can there be found in his so doinge but onely falshed For who wòulde take a mannes tale to witnesse where he speaketh but obscurely or incerteinly and vtterly refuse it there where he speaketh it full hole and plainly any man els but onely Frithe and such as he was for the plaine place he wilt well he could nother ouerthrow nor yet wrynge it to anye apparence of his purpose But the obscure and ambiguous place he thought he might wrest whiche waie he liste and so to make many beleue as he did in deede that it sufficientlye serued his turne HERE Yet ye confesse that place of Saint Austen whiche Frythe dooth alledge to be obscure and ambiguous CATH Ye to them that lacketh good wyll or knowledge But not to them as I sayde whiche be learned and of the catholyke sayth Wherefore thus maiest thou see Why Frith alledged that place of Saint Austen and not this so craftylie as he dyd Whiche was no more but onely because when he saw there was made therein no speciall mencion by name of the reall eatynge whiche is moste common and generall nor yet of the spyrytuall eatynge whiche is more singuler and specyall but of eatynge symplie without anie dyrecte or proper distinction he thought he myght vnderstande of them bothe whiche he lyst or els take it as thoughe there had bene none other maner of eatynge thereof but euen verie one alone And thereuppon he did take that place to be no lesse then enoughe and very sufficient to proue his purpose As I graunt it had beene in deede if it had beene after that sorte to be vnderstande as he tooke it But he looked so muche vpon this poynte that he founde there no mencion made of anie dystynction of eatynges whereby he thought he myght take as I sayde whyche he lyste or one for all that he forgat what mencion Saynt Austen made there of the distynctyon although not of eatynges yet for all that of eaters whiche was enoughe to show what maner of eatynge he mente For as his manifest speakynge was there of a peculiar sorte of eaters so his very meanynge muste needes be vnderstande of a peculiar maner a eatynge For it is agaynst all reason and trewthe to denye that to some whiche is common to all or to graunte that to all which perteyneth but to some And therfore thou maist well know that Saint Austen wolde not do so For he denyed not there but onely that eatynge whiche apperteyneth vnto some and not vnto all That is to say only to them that be good and not vnto them that he nought Of whom there he dooth make mecion and of none other For the libertee real of eating perteyneth both to good and bad But the spirituall eatyng perteyneth to none but onely to them that be good Cap. 39. HERE Sir Saint Austen maketh no suche distinction or difference betwene reall and spiritual eatyng nor betwene generall and speciall eating as ye speake of CATH Why saiest thou so for although he doth it not euen in those maner of woordes with suche conference of both together as thou woldest haue yet he doth it in deede for all that as it doth right well appere vpon the syxt of Saint Iohn Tracta 27. where his woordes be these Hoc totum quod dominus de carne de sanguine suo loquutus est Et quod in eius distributionis gratia vitam nobis promisit aeternam Et quod hinc voluit intelligi manducatores carnis sanguinis sui vt in illo maneant ipse in illis Et quod non intellexerunt qui non crediderunt Et quod spiritualia carnaliter sapiendo scandalizati sunt Et quod eis scandalizatis pereuntibus consolatio domini affuit discipulis qui remanserant ad quos probandos interrogauit Nunquid vos vultis ire vt responsio permāsionis eorum innotseceret nobis nam ille nouerat qui manebant Hocergo totum ad hoc nobis valet DILECTISSIMI vt carnem Christi sanguinem Christi non edamus tantum in sacramento quod multi mali sed vsque ad spiritus perticipationem manducemus bibamus Vt in domini corpore tanquam membra maneamus vt eius spiritu vegetemur non scandalizemur etiamsi multi modo nobiscum manducant bibunt temporaliter sacramenta qui habebunt in fine aeterna tormenta That is to say All this that our lorde spake of his fleshe and his blood And that in the grace of distribucion therof he promised vnto vs lyfe euerlastynge and that therof he wolde to be vnderstande that the eaters and drinkers of his fleshe and blood should abyde in him and he in them And that they did not vnderstande whiche did not beleue And that they were offended by vnderstandynge spirituall thinges carnally And that they beyng offended and perylshynge the comforte of our lorde was present to the disciples which did abide vnto the probacion of whom he asked wil you go away that the answere of their abiding might be also knowen to vs for he knew them whiche did abide All this therefore most deerely beloued auayleth vnto vs for this purpose that we shoulde not eate the fleshe of Christe and the blood of Christe onely in the sacramente whiche many doth that be nought but that we shoulde eate and drynke it vnto the part taking of the spirite that wee shoulde abyde as membres in the body of our Lorde that we might be quickned with his spirite And that we should not be offended although many now dooth eate and drynke the sacramentes with vs temporally whiche shall haue in thende tormentes eternall Now what canst thou wishe more plainely spoken for the reall eatynge and drynkynge of Christes most precious fleshe and blood in the holy sacramente then when he sayth as here thou seest we eate it not onely in the sacrament that same not onely in the sacramente dooth moste cleerely declare it to be therin euen verely eaten for he wolde not haue said not onely in the sacrament but not in the sacrament For not in the sacrament and not onely in the sacrament are two thinges Not in the sacrament denyeth it to bee eaten therein but not onely in the sacrament confesseth it to bee eaten therein and also other wise to Wherefore this very reall eatinge of Christes blessed flesh and blood in the holy sacrament must nedes be common and generall when as here S. Austen saith many doth it which be nought whose eating therof thou maiest well know commeth not to the perticipacion or partaking of the spirite that quickneth when those be they that abyde not in Christe nor Christe in them And therefore the participacion or partakynge of the spirite therin is and must needes be the spirituall eatynge whiche is not generall but speciall and proper onely to those that abyde in Christ and Christ in them as the noughty and euill sorte dooth not And
that they beleued not some certayn mysteries in some of the Sacramentes And therfore where the gospell doeth say that when Christ was at Ierusalem in the tyme of Easter many did beleue in the name of hym for the myracles they saw him do but Iesus did not commit hym selfe vnto them Saynt Austen vpon the same place doth say that all those be suche whiche are called cathecumini that is to say herers or learners For his owne wordes thereof in latin be these Tales sūt oēs Cathecumini Ipsi iā credunt in nomine Christi Sed Iesus non se credit eis Intendat intelligat charitas vestra Si dixerimus cathecumino credis in Christo Respondet credo et signat se Iam crucem christi portet in fronte Et non erubescit in cruce domini sui Ecce credit in nomine eius Interrogamus eum manducas carnem filii hominis bibis sanguinē filii hominis Nescit quid dicimus quia Iesus non se credit ei Which may thus be englished Cathecumini are al of the same sort For they beleue in the name of christ But Iesus cōmitteth not him self vnto thē Let your charite marke and vnderstande If we shall say to the cathecumini doest thou beleue in Chryste he wyll answer and say I beleue and blesseth him self Now he beareth the crosse of Chryst in hys forehead And is not ashamed of the crosse of hys lorde Beholde he beleueth in hys name We aske hym agayn doest thou eate the flesh of the sonne of man and drinke the bloud of the sonne of man he knoweth not what we say because Iesus hathe not committed hym selfe vnto hym How sayest thou now what thinge is it whiche thys Cathecuminus doeth here not know when he is asked this playne question of the eating and drinking of Christes most blessed fleshe and bloud The wordes be playn And therefore what is there in them that as Saynt Austen saieth of him he doeth not know HER. The spirituall vnderstanding of it CATH What meanest thou by the spirituall vnderstandinge of it HERE The spyrituall eatinge and drinkinge of that flesh and bloud CATH Ye but what is the spirituall eatinge and drinkinge therof HERE It is as Frithe hath sayd to beleue in Christe CATH To beleue in Christe is it that thinkest thou whiche Saynt Austen doeth here meane that as he sayeth this Cathecuminus doeth not know when he hym selfe sayth of him that he beleueth in christe Thou mayst perceyue it can not be so For yf S. Austen had ment here none other eatinge and drinkynge of it but that he wolde not haue noted him to be ignorant of his question when he him selfe reporteth him to beleue in the name of Christe For that were as muche as he requireth if he had ment nothinge els Therfore if thou perceyue it not alredy let vs looke farther what S. Austen doeth meane by hys not knowinge Anie thinge els but his not beleuinge And what meaneth Saynt Austen by his not beleuing but that he beleueth not accordinge to his askyng And what is it to beleue accordinge to his askinge but to beleue the very eatinge and drinkinge of Christes fleshe and bloud for that is the verie playne question whiche he doeth aske him Wherfore that must needes be the thinge which the Cathecuminus knoweth not And that because he beleueth it not And therfore it is hys lacke of faithe in the reall eatinge and drinkinge of Christes holy fleshe and bloud that Saynt Austen doeth here finde faute wyth him for And not for anie other eatinge and drinkinge therof which as Frithe sayeth is nothinge els but onely faythe and beleue in Christ Whiche fayth as Saynt Austen sayeth this Cathecuminus hath and yet christ committeth not him selfe vnto hym Therefore when Saynt Austen doeth aske him the question of eatinge and drynkinge of the fleshe and bloud of the sonne of man it is an other eatinge and drinking that he doeth meane and speake of then this Cathecuminus doeth knowe or beleue or els he wolde not réprehende hym therein as he doeth It is an other also then Frith doeth beleue when he sayeth a man may vse it althoughe he neuer receyue the Sacrament And therfore what other is it but euen only the very reall eatinge and drinking of it in the holy Sacrament Cap. 41. HERE Why syr doeth not Saynt Austen say as Frithe doeth alledge in the .17 leafe of hys booke Why preparest thou teethe and belly beleue and thou hast eaten CATH What of that wilt thou gather thereof that there is none other eating of it but only beleue Therefore if there be an other what doeth this make for Frythes purpose or thine other And that there is an other haue I not proued it all reddie before by the manifest wordes of Saynt Austen hym selfe Wherefore if thys be trew as Frithe doeth say it is that these wordes of eatinge and drinking in this matter meane nothing els but faythe and beleefe it must needes folow that Saynt Austen doeth here vniustlye reprehende this Cathecuminus of whome he doeth confesse no lesse hym selfe but that he hath faith and beleueth in the name of christ And beside that this must also folow thereof likewyse that when he sayeth Beleue and thou hast eaten It is no more nor none other to say but beleue and thou hast beleued What reason is this or who wolde thinke S. Austen to meane so HER. Why what should he there meane els CATH Euen as he dothe which is this Beleue trewly and thou hast eaten spiritually For the spiritual eating commeth not to passe but thorow the whole trewth of beleuing And the hoole trewth of beleuinge consisteth not in holding some partes of the fayth and denyinge some other but in holdinge them whole euen altogether Therefore Saynt austen doeth here as in many other places moe farther mean then he doeth expresse For where he doeth here as touching the fayth no farther say but beleue yet he meaneth these wordes wholy and trewly to be vnderstande with all For he meaneth no suche beleue as is mixed or corrupted with any falshed or with the lacke of any parte of it Therefore besyde thys he meaneth farther then so to For he meaneth not that same beleefe nother althoughe it be neuer so whole and trew whiche is infected with euyll and wycked maners But he meaneth that whiche as the Apostle doeth say worketh by charite Wherfore beleue so and I wyll graunte that thou hast eaten or els not For withoute that maner of beleuynge whiche is but accordinge to Saynt Austens meaninge doubtles there can be no spirituall eatinge at all And in that maner of beleuinge there is and must needes be contayned the verye beleefe of the reall eatinge For the spyrytuall eatinge was not ordeyned for the reall eatynge but the reall eatynge for the spirituall eatynge And therfore without the very beleefe of the reall eatinge the spirituall eatynge can neuer he had HERE Then the
woordes expressed But yet euen suche is the blyndnesse of heresie vnto the whiche because credible seemeth incredible and intelligible not intelligible what skilleth it what Fryth dooth saye or what is his saiynge to that thou haste herde of Saint Austen whom although he taketh aboue all men for his defence yet thou maiest now see how clerely he maketh against him In so much that if I should recite vnto the all suche other places of Saint Austen as maketh no lesse but rather more against him lykewyse the whole daie were to little to serue the purpose And therefore now content thy selfe with that I haue hytherto sayde as thou hast herde alreadye whiche is so muche as perchaunce woulde seeme to soome euen to be more then enough Wherefore with this content thy selfe and fare well for this tyme. Cap. 43. HERE What will ye dooe syr wyll ye now departe without any farther examinacion of so large a matter as Frith hath gathered together out of all the other holy doctours besyde CATH Ye why not for it were but a lost labour to bestowe anye more tyme about that sith he bringeth none of them al for any other purpose as I sayd at the first but onelie to confyrme that which he wolde make vs to beleue he gathereth out of Saint Austen And that apeereth by his owne woordes whiche I recyted vnto the before and also will now agayne to put the in better remembraunce thereof For his woordes be these This saith he were proofe enough to conclude that all the olde fathers did holde the same opinion For who woulde once surmise seynge we haue Saynt Austen so playne for vs whiche is the chiefest among them all who wolde once surmise I say that he dissented in this great matter from the other faythfull fathers or they from him Neuerthelesse I dare not let him stande post alone least ye dispyse hym And therefore I will showe you the minde of certaine other also And first of his maister Saint Ambrose HERE Ye marry sir I pray you let vs here what Saynt Ambrose saith CATH What neede that For thou seest it playne that he bryngeth not in Saint Ambrose nor anie other besyde for any thynge els but onely to show thagrement betwene Saint Austen and them And therefore looke as I haue declared vnto the how Saynt Austen dooth make for his purpose euen so dooth Saint Ambrose and all the reste lykewise That is to saie none otherwyse in deede but euen dyrectlie agaynste him HERE Yet if ye will not recite those woordes of Saynt Ambrose whiche Frith dooth alledge I will recyte them my selfe CATH What nede that when thou knowest them wel enough alreadie or els how couldest thou recite thē HER. Yet I will do it to here what ye will say to them CATH Although I haue therein sayde enoughe alreadye Yet chose the do as thou wilt HERE Then ye shall vnderstande that his allegacion of Saint Ambrose is euen this Saint ambrose saith he writyng vpon the epistle of paule to the Corinthians in the .xi. chapiter saith Quia enim morte domini liberati sumus huius rei in edendo potando carnem sanguinem quae pro nobis oblata sunt significamus That is to saie Because we be deliuered by the death of the lorde in eatynge and drynkinge this thing meaning the sacrament we signifie the fleshe and blood whiche were offerered for vs. Here doeth saynt Ambrose say enough sayth he yf men were not sophisters but wolde be content with reason Now by thys ye see that Frithe desireth none other but that reason might rule as it ought to do CAT. In deede this reason I finde in it that thy recitall herof as I now perceyue chaunceth very well for thee if thou will be so happy as not to trust falshed wilfully For if euer thou foundest a falser harlot then Frithe shalbe founde in this trust me no more And that not only in his allegation of Saynt Ambrose wordes but also in his translating of them into englyshe to And to thyntent it may the more playnlie appere vnto thee I wyl so trewlie alledge the very same place of Saynt Ambrose my selfe as thou shalt not fayle to finde it worde by worde looke where it is when thou wilt For the very wordes of Saynt Ambrose are these Quia enim morte domini liberati sumus huius rei membres in edendo potando carnem et sanguinem quae pro nobis oblata sunt significamus That is to say Because we be deliuered by the death of our lord we mind full therof do in eating and drinkinge the fleshe and bloud whiche were offred for vs signifie HERE Ye what do we signifie CATH Softe let that alone for a whyle And let vs fyrst conferre Frithes allegation and mine not only in latin but also in Englishe bothe together that we may se how well they doo agree And therfore in his allegation of the latin what hath he done with this worde Memores whiche is to say in Englishe mindefull Why dyd he leaue out that and wolde not bringe it to light he thought perchaunce that Saynt Ambrose did not well to put it in Or els he thought to make an exchaynge with hym and for that latyn worde to gyue him in recompence these three or foure Englyshe woordes That is to say meaninge of the Sacramente For what Latyn worde hathe Saynt Ambrose here that may be trewlie turned in to thys Englishe worde meaninge Or into this worde Sacrament If he haue here none suche as he hath not in deede what foloweth but that Frithe of purpose did put them in to deceyue and make the symple Englishe reader beleue it to be the minde of Saynt Ambrose when it is but his owne false Hereticall practise and nothinge els As it may well appere by thys that vnder the colour of a translatour he playeth here the false expositer And why but as I sayde to seduce the reader For where as Saynt Ambrose doeth ioyne these wordes huius rei and thys worde Memores together whiche are to say myndefull of thys thynge Frithe putteth away this worde memores and ioyneth to huius rei these wordes in edendo potando Whiche beynge so ioyned are to say in eatynge and drynkynge of thys thynge Nowe to saye myndefull of thys thinge as Saynt Ambrose sayeth and to saye in eatynge and drinkinge of this thynge as Fryth sayth thou mayst perceue hath a greate difference Whereby doeth it not euen clearely appere how false a parte he playeth herein And yet to make vs beleue that Saynt Ambrose dyd meane by thys same huius rei the Sacrament he of hys owne head addeth vnto it for an exposition thereof these wordes meanynge of the Sacramente When Saynt Ambrose meaneth by it not so nor anie thynge els but as it is playne the very same that he maketh mention of before whiche is the death of Christe whereby we are delyuered sayinge We myndefull of this thinge in eating and
and disposicions of fleshe is it that maketh the vnderstandinge of it carnall and fleshelye and not the substaunce it selfe as it maie well appere not onely By Saint Paule but also by Saint Austen vpon the same sixt chapiter of Saint Iohn where his woordes be these Qui aderant plures non intelligendo scandalizati sunt Non enim cogitabant haec audiendo nisi carnem quod ipsi erant Apostolus autem dicit Et vae rum dicit sapere secundum carnem Mors est Carnem dat nobis suam dominus manducare sapere secundum carnem mors est cum de carne sua dicat quia ibi est vita aeterna Ergo nec carnem debemus sapere secundum carnem Whiche maie thus be englished Many of them that were present not vnderstandyng the matter were offended For in hearynge these thinges they did not imagine but the fleshe that they were themselues But the apostle saith and saith trew to vnderstande after the fleshe is death Our lorde gaue vnto vs his fleshe in eate and to vnderstande after the fleshe is death when he saide of his owne flesshe that there is euerlastynge lyfe Therefore we ought not to vnderstande fleshe after the fleshe Here thou mayest see a manifest difference of vnderstandynge betwene fleshe and after the fleshe and therfore how saist thou to it now HERE I say that S. Austen saith here very well For what meaneth he by this that we ought not to vnderstande the fleshe after the fleshe but that we ought to vnderstande it after some other thing whiche is here ment by the flesheand not the fleshe it selfe CATH I woulde not haue thought the so foolishe as to take it so for this as is though it were all one to saie we ought not to vnderstande the fleshe after the fleshe and to saie we ought not therein to vnderstande any fleshe at all when the saiyng forbyddeth vs not the vnderstanding of the fleshe it selfe but the vnderstandynge of it after the common course and naturall disposicion thereof It forbyddeth vs to vnderstande it as nature here daiely doth vse it and at length shall lese it but not as the spirite shall at length againe obteine it The spirite of man it selfe is nowe in this lyfe muche after the fleshe here but the fleshe in the next lyfe shalbe after the spirite there After the fleshe here hath no place nor being there And that ought we to consider here For the fleshe is one thinge and after the fleshe is an other Wherfore although in the course of nature they go here both together yet in this matter our vnderstandinge must plucke them a sonder or els thou shalte vnderstande fleshe after the fleshe whiche is death as thou hast harde before and more playnely doth appere by the manifest woordes of thapostle againe in an other place where he saith Et si cognouimus secundum carnem Christum sed nunc iam non nouimus That is to say Although we haue knowne Christe after the fleshe yet we dooe not so now What do we then know we now no fleshe in Christ God forbyd for we know it in dede but not after the fleshe What is after the fleshe Necessitee passibilitee corruptibilitee mortalitee and such other These were once knowen in Christe And his fleshe then knowen after them But so it nother is nor ought to be known now And therfore not after the fleshe and yet fleshe in dede for all that although not fleshly fleshe which onely maketh fleshely vnderstandyng But spiritual fleshe which maketh the vnderstandynge spirituall For as thapostle saith There is a naturall body and there is a spirituall bodie And what is that to saie but there is a naturall fleshe and there is a spirituall fleshe That he saith is not first which is spirituall But that whiche is naturall And then that whiche is spyrituall These two states of fleshe thou maiest know by reason can not haue lyke vnderstandynge Wherefore by this it maie well appere that the spirituall vnderstandinge of this matter wherupon Frith doth ground him selfe and yet vnderstode it not is not euen onely and mere spirituall as he doth take it excludynge all maner of fleshe But spirituall of spirituall fleshe whiche Frithes vnderstandynge did neuer touche nor once dreame vpon HERE That is your pleasure so to say CATH No it shall not be onely my saiynge but as in the .17 leafe of his booke it maie be partly perceiued by his owne saiyng which is this As touchinge the other woordes saith he that Christe spake vnto his disciples at the last supper I deny not but that he sayde so but that he so fleshlie ment as ye falsly feygne I vtterly deny Now marke what doth he meane by this whiche he laieth here so sore to our charges that we haue as he saith so falsely feygned of Chrystes meanynge HE. He meaneth your feygnynge to be this that Christ ment that his woordes concernynge his bodie spoken at his last supper shoulde be taken and vnderstande fleshlie whiche can not be CATH And meaneth he so HERE His woordes declare no lesse CATH Therfore by this it is cleere that his meanynge of our feynynge is euen like his vnderstandynge which is in deede both false and fleshly to For do we feyne that Christe spake those woordes of his blessed body with a fleshely meaning Where findeth he that we feyne that as here he lusteth so to lie For we do not only not feine it but vtterly deny it constantly affirmynge and faithfully teachinge that therin Christe ment in deede very fleshe but yet not as this fleshe monger lieth fleshly fleshe for all that How be it euen fleshely fleshe it is which Frith dreameth vppon and none other And that deceaueth him altogether For commonly where so euer he maketh mencion of Christes bodie his fleshe and eatynge therof he doth not call it but a naturall bodie naturall fleshe and the eatynge thereof carnall eatynge eatyng with the mouth teeth and belly and suche other talke concernynge the same as smelleth not but euen altogether fleshely and nothynge els as it appereth in the .44 and .45 leafe of his booke and many other places therein besyde when as I tolde thee before betwene fleshe and fleshely there is as great difference whiche Fryth did nothynge consider And therfore it is no wonder although he came neuer at the spyrituall vnderstandyng of the matter beyng so fleshelie phantasied as his owne talke therein doth plainely declare that he was Wherfore in him are well verified these woordes of thapostle saiyng Animalis homo non percipit ea quae sunt Spiritus dei stultitia enim est illi non potest intelligere quia spiritualiter examinatur Spiritualis autem iudicat omnia Whiche maie thus be Englished The fleshly man vndestandeth not those thinges whiche are of the spirite of god For they are foolishnes to him because he can not vnderstande that they are spiritually to be examined But the spirituall man