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A42764 A late dialogue betwixt a civilian and a divine concerning the present condition of the Church of England in which, among other particulars, these following are especially spoken of ... Gillespie, George, 1613-1648. 1644 (1644) Wing G753; ESTC R15751 28,350 44

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his bloody Tenant though I doe not remember that anywhere he answereth to those particular passages which I have cited yet perceiving that such arguments from the Old Testament can not be taken off without this answer that all these were typicall and figurative he therefore goeth much upon that ground and so deviseth more types and figures in the Old Testament then ever any body did before him and pleaseth himselfe with such fancies and conjectures therein as I dare say will satisfie no indifferent Reader and in effect making void by his principles all arguments from the Old Testament so that we may not from the examples of the godly Kings of Iudah teach Christian Magistrates what their duty is nor argue thus God commanded that the Kings of Iudah should have a copy of the Book of the Law by them and read therein that they should not multiply wives c. Therefore Christian Princes should search the Scriptures should not multiply wives c. or thus The Priests and Levites had a sufficient maintenance Therefore so should the Ministers of the Gospell or thus The Jewes were commanded to rest from all servile labour on the Sabbath day Therefore so should Christians on the Lords day or thus Warres were lawfull in the old Testament Therefore they are lawfull still Or the like All these shall be cast aside upon this ground they were tipicall therefore no patterns to us But because you desire an Argument from the New Testament I will convince your judgement from thence also Sure I am I have better grounds in the New Testament against the Toleration now in question then Master Iohn Goodwin hath found for it in his Text Act. 5.38.39 He holdeth that we may build upon Gamaliels speech as Authorised by God there being nothing in all this speech excepting only the Historicall Instances the truth of which it seems was generally known and is attested by Iosephus their great Historian but what is fully consonant with the Word of God saith he And so he approveth the Sceptik Principles of that Nullifidian who razeth the very foundation of the Christian Faith and maketh it a very doubtfull case whether the Apostles Doctrine was from God or from men But I proceed to my Arguments First you shall doe well to remember what I said concerning Church censutes from Matth. 18. under which scandalous and obstinate delinquents doe fall the pretence of Conscience being no exception for them The Ministers of the Gospel have in readinesse to revenge all disobedience 2 Cor. 10.6 The Angel of the Church of Ephesus is commended because of his zeal in that he could not beare those who called themselves Apostles and were not Revel. 2.2 Contrariwise the Angel of the Church of Perga●●● is blamed for this reason because then hast there them that teach the doctrine of Balaam c. so hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans Revel. 2.14.15 that is because thou hast tolerated them and hast not cast them out It is thy fault that they are there in the Church The like challenge is sent to the Angel of the Church of Thyatira vers. 20. I have a few things against thee because thou sufferedst that woman Iezebell who calleth her self a Prophetesse to teach and to seduce my servants c. That chapter is so cleare for the point that Master Williams acknowledgeth it proves fully that Christ hath endued the Ministers and Governours of his Church with power to suppresse Heresy and errour and the spreaders thereof be who they will be See the bloody Tenent c. 57. So Iohn the Baptist pag. 63. confesseth that the Church of Thy●●ra was justly taxed not only for not controuling and reproving Iexebel but also in that they permitted her to seduce weak Christians without cutting her off by the sword of the Spirit the power of excommunication Civilian I was about to answer the same that if those places prove any thing it is onely the suppressing of Hereticks and Schismaticks by Church censures not at all by the civill coercive power of the Magistrate Divine I thought with my selfe I should neede say no more having proved that Heriticks and Shismaticks though miscarrying with so much opinion of conscience as to thinke themselves Apostles or Prophets may be censured and cast out of the Church which is the case Revel. 2. I did never imagine but where the soule is punished with the greatest punishment which can be inflicted on earth that is Excomunication much more may the body be punished by the Magistrate as the degree of the offence shall require especially considering that the Magistrat is a nursing father to the Church and is to protect and assist her not to suffer her authority and censures to be despised and set at nought But to satisfie you yet more touching the Magistrats part consider well that passage Rom. 13.4 For he is the Minister of God to thee for good but if thou doe that which is evill be afraid for he beareth not the sword in vaine for he is the Minister of God a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doth evill Civilian This place and all that you can say in that kind doth not warrant nor iustifie persecution for the cause of conscience but onely the punishment of all such evill doers as doe disturbe the peace of the Kingdome or the course of civill justice oppose Magistrats or lawes traitors rebells murtherers felons and the like Iohn the Baptist pag. 57. saith If a breach of peace the civill powers ought to redresse it 1. Tim. 2.1.2 But for the Magistrate to interpose in matters meerly Ecclesiasticall otherwise then spiritually and as a Minister of the Gospell I find no warrant for it in all the Gospel Divine Now you are come to your last refuge wherein I know you put great confidence but I am as confident it cannot serve your turne which I prove thus 1. By this Tenent you give a more dangerous wound to the power of the civill Magistrate then you are aware of for in stead of m●king him keeper of both Tables you make him keeper of the second Table on●ly at least vindex of ● onely whereas God hath made him as well vindex as Custos utriusque Tabula 2. In t●e place I last cited the Apostle maketh no exception nor restriction but will have all evill doers to which category I suppose Heretickes and Sedu●ers doe belong to be afraid of vengeance by the hand of the Magistrate 3. The Apostle there doth once and againe call the Magistrate The Minister of God as it were purposely putting him in mind that he judgeth not for man but for the Lord and that he is to looke most to things pertaining to God 4. There may be a coincidencie of those things which you put assunder for example suppose a Jesuite killing a Magistrate or some other Hereticke killing one who hath beene most opposite to him or as sometime the case was suppose men