I Do appoint Richard Sare to Print the two Tryals of Titus Otes for Perjury And Order That no other Person do presume to Print the same Jeffreys THE TRYALS Convictions Sentence OF TITUS OTES UPON TWO INDICTMENTS For Willful Malicious and Corrupt PERJURY AT THE KINGS-BENCH-BARR at Westminster Before the Right Honourable George Lord Jeffreys Baron of Wem Lord Chief Justice of His Majesties Court of Kings-Bench and the rest of the Judges of that Court. Upon Friday the 8th and Saturday the 9th days of May Anno Domini 1685. And in the First Year of the Reign of our Soveraign Lord King JAMES the II. c. LONDON Printed for R. Sare at Grays-Inn-Gate in Holborn and are to be sold by Randal Taylor 1685. Die veneris oct Maii 1685. in Banco Regis De Term. Pasch Anni Regni Regis Jacobi primi Dominus Rex versus Titus Oates THis day being apointed for the Tryal of one of the Causes between our Soveraign Lord the King and Titus Oates for Perjury the same began between eight and nine in the Morning and proceeded in the manner following First Proclamation was made for Silence then the Defendant was called who appeared in Person being brought up by Rule from the King's Bench Prison where we was in Custody and was advised to look to his Challenges to the Jury that were Impanel'd to try the Cause Oates My Lord I am to manage my own Defence and have a great many Papers and things which I have brought in order to it I pray I may have some Conveniency for the Managing my own Tryal Lord C. Justice Ay Ay let him sit down there within the Bar and let him have Conveniency for his Papers Clerk Crown Cryer swear Sir William Dodson Oates My Lord I except against Sir William Dodson Mr. Att. Gen. What is the Cause of Exception Mr. Oats L. C. J. Why do you challenge him Oates My Lord I humbly conceive in these cases of Criminal Matters the Defendant has Liberty of excepting against any of the Jurors without shewing Cause provided there be a full Jury besides L. C. J. No no that is not so you are mistaken in that Mr. Oates Oates My Lord I am advised so I do not understand the Law my self L. C. J. But we tell you then it cannot be allow'd if Mr. Attorney will consent to wave him well and good Mr. Att. Gen. No my Lord I know no reason for it I cannot consent to any such thing L. C. J. Then if you will not have him sworn you must shew your Cause presently Oates My Lord I cannot assign any Cause L. C. J. Then he must be sworn Cl. Cr. Swear him Cryer Sir William Dodson take the Book you shall well and truly try this Issue between our Soveraign Lord the King and Titus Oates and a true Verdict give according to the Evidence so help you God Cl. Cr. Swear Sir Edmund Wiseman which was done Richard Aley Esq who was sworn Benjamin Scutt Oates My Lord I challenge him L. C. J. For what Cause Oates My Lord he was one of the Grand Jury that found the Bill L. C. J. Was he so that is an exception indeed what say you Mr. Attorney Att. Gen. My Lord I believe he was upon one of the Indictments but I think it was not this L. C. J. But if he were in either of them he cannot be so impartial Mr. Att. Gen. My Lord we will not stand upon it we 'll wave him Cl. Cl. Thomas Fowlis Oates Pray let me see that Gentleman who was shown to him Are you not a Goldsmith in Fleetstreet between the two Temples Fowlis Yes I am Oates Very well Sir I do not except against you only I desire to know whether it were you or not Cl. Cr. Swear him which was done Thomas Blackmore Sworn Peter Pickering Sworn Robert Beddingfield Sworn Thomas Rawlinson Sworn Roger Reeves Sworn Edward Kempe sworn Oates My Lord I challenge him L. C. J. You speak too late he is sworn already Oates My Lord they are so quick I could not speak but he was one of the Grand Jury too L. C. J. We cannot help it now Mr. Att. Gen. I did know that he was so but to shew that we mean nothing but fair we are content to wave him L. C. J. You do very well Mr. Attorney General let him be withdrawn Cl. Cr. Mr. Kempe you may take your case swear Ambrose Isted which was done Henry Collier Sworn Richard Howard Sworn Cl. Cr. Cryer count these Cryer One c. Sir William Dodson Cl. Cr. Richard Howard Cryer Twelve good men and true hearken to the Record and stand together and hear the Evidence The Names of the Twelve sworn were these Jury Sir William Dodson Sir Edmund Wiseman Richard Aley Thomas Fowlis Thomas Blackmore Peter Pickering Robert Beddingfield Thomas Rawlinson Roger Reeves Ambrose Isted Henry Collier and Richard Howard Oates Before the Councel opens the Cause I desire to move one thing to your Lordship L. C. J. What is it you would have Oates My Lord I have three Witnesses that are very material one's to my Defence who are now Prisoners in the King's Bench for whom I moved yesterday that I might have a Rule of Court to bring them up to day but it was objected that they were in Execution and so not to be brought I humbly move your Lordship now that I may have a Habeas Corpus for them to bring them immediately hither L. C. J. We cannot do it Oates Pray Good my Lord they are very material Witnesses for me and I mov'd yesterday for them L. C. J. You did so but we told your Councel then and so we tell you now we cannot do it by Law it will be an escape Oates My Lord I shall want their Testimony L. C. J. Truely we cannot help it the Law will not allow it and you must be satisfied Cl. Cr. Gentlemen you that are sworn of this Jury hearken to the Record by Virtue of an Inquisition taken at Justice Hall in the Old Bayly in the Parish of St. Sepulcher in the Ward of Faringdon without London upon Wednesday the 10th of December in the 36th of the Raign of our late Soveraign Lord Charles the II. by the grace of God of England Scotland France and Ireland King Defender of the Faith c. Before Sir James Smith Knight Mayor of the City of London Sir George Jefferies Knight and Baronet Lord Chief Justice of this Honourable Court Sir Thomas Jones Knight Lord Chief Justice of the Court of Common Pleas William Montague Lord Chief Baron of the Exchequer Sir James Edwards Knight Sir John More Knight Aldermen of the said City Sir Thomas Jenner Knight one of his Majesties Sergeants at Law and Recorder of the same City and others their Companions Justices of Oyer and Terminer by the Oaths of twelve Jurors Honest and Lawful Men of the City of London aforesaid who then and there being sworn and charged to enquire for
our said Lord the King and the Body of the City aforesaid upon their Oaths present that at the Session of our Soveraign Lord the King holden for the County of Middlesex at Hick's Hall in St. John's Street in the County aforesaid on Monday to wit 16 Deaem in the year of the Raign of our late Soveraign Lord Charles the Second of England Scotland France and Ireland King Defender of the Faith c. the thirtieth before Sir Reginald Forster Baronet Sir Philip Matthews Baronet Sir William Bowls Knight Sir Charles Pitfield Knight Thomas Robinson Humphrey Wyrley Thomas Hariott and William Hempson Esquires Justices of the said Soveraign Lord the King to enquire by the Oath of Honest and Lawful Men of the County of Middlesex aforesaid and by other Ways manners means by which they might better know as well within Liberties as without by whom the Truth of the matter may be better known and enquired of whatsoever Treasons Misprisions of Treasons Insurrections Rebellions Counterfeitings Clippings washings and false makings of the Money of this Kingdom of England and of other Kingdoms and Dominions whatsoever and of whatsoever Murders Felonies Man-slaughters Killings Burglaries and other Articles and Offences in the Letters Pattents of our said Soveraign Lord the King to them or any four or more of them therefore directed specified as also the Accessaries of the same within the County aforesaid as well within Liberties as without by whomsoever howsoever had made done or committed and the said Treasons and other the Premises to hear and determine according to the Law and Custom of this Kingdom of England being assigned by the Oath of Ralph Wain John Vaughan Richard Foster Thomas Paget Robert Newington Henry Tompkins Robert Hays John Greenwood Peter Stimpson Josias Crosley Richard Richman Augustine Bear John King Nathaniel Brett Francis Fisher and Samuel Linn Honest and Lawful Men of the County aforesaid sworn and charged to enquire for our said Soveraign Lord the King and the Body of the County aforesaid upon their Oaths It was presented that Thomas White otherwise Whitebread late of the Parish of St. Giles in the Fields in the County of Middlesex Clerk William Ireland late of the Parish aforesaid in the County aforesaid Clerk John Fenwick late of the Parish aforesaid in the County aforesaid Clerk Thomas Pickering of the Parish aforesaid in the County aforesaid Clerk John Grove of the Parish aforesaid in the County aforesaid Gent. as false Traitors against the most Illustrious Serene and most excellent Prince our said late Soveraign Lord Charles the Second by the Grace of God of England Scotland France and Ireland King Defender of the Faith c. Their Supreme and Natural Lord not having the Fear of God in their Hearts nor weighing the Duty of their Allegiance but being moved and seduced by the Instigation of the Devil The Cordial Love and True and Natural Obedience which faithful Subjects of our said Soveraign Lord the King towards him should and of right ought to bear utterly withdrawing and contriving and with all their Might intending the Peace and Tranquility of this Kingdom of England to disturb and the true Worship of God within this Kingdom of England used and by Law established to subvert and Rebellion within this Kingdom of England to move stir up and procure and the Cordial Love and true and due Obedience which Faithful Subjects of our said Lord the King towards him the said Soveraign Lord the King should and of right ought to bear utterly to withdraw put out and extinguish and our said Soveraign Lord the King to Death and final Destruction to bring and put the four and twentieth day of April in the year of the Reign of our late Soveraign Lord Charles the Second by the Grace of God of England Scotland France and Ireland King Defender of the Faith c. the thirtieth at the Parish of St. Giles in the Fields in the County aforesaid falsly maliciously subtilely advisedly and trayterously did purpose compass Imagine and Intend Sedition and Rebellion within this Kingdom of England to move stir up and procure and a miserable Slaughter among the Subjects of our said Lord the King to procure and cause and our said late Lord the King from the Regal State Title Power and Government of his Kingdom of Enggland utterly to deprive depose cast down and dis-inherit and him our said late Soveraign Lord the King to Death and final Destruction to bring and put and the Government of the said Kingdom and the sincere Religion of God rightly by the Laws of the said Kingdom established at their Will and Pleasure to change and alter and the State of this whole Kingom of England throughout all its parts well instituted and ordain'd wholly to subvert and destroy and war against our said late Soveraign Lord the King within this Kingdom of England to levy and those their most wicked Treasons and Traiterous Imaginations and Purposes aforesaid to fullfil and perfect They the aforesaid Thomas White alias Whitebread William Ireland John Fenwick Thomas Pickering and John Grove other false Traytors to the Jurors not known the said four and twentieth day of April in the year of the Reign of our said late Soveraign Lord the King the Thirtieth with Force and Arms c. at the Parish of St. Giles in the Fields in the County of Middlesex aforesaid falsly maliciously subtilely advisedly Devilishly and Traiterously did assemble themselves unite and meet together and then and there falsly maliciously subtilely advisedly devilishly and Trayterously did consult and agree our said late Soveraign Lord the King to Death and final Destruction to bring and put and the Religion within this Kingdom of England rightly and by the Laws of the same Kingdom established to the Superstition of the Romish Church to change and alter and the sooner to fulfil and perfect their said most wicked Treasons and Traiterous Imaginations and purposes they the said Thomas White alias Whitebread William Ireland John Fenwick Thomas Pickering and John Grove and other false Traytors of our said late Soveraign Lord the King to the Jurors unknown afterwards to wit the same 24th day of April in the said 30th year of our said late Soverain Lord the King at the said aforesaid Parish of St. Giles in the Fields in the County aforesaid falsly subtilely advisedly devilishly and Trayterously among themselves did conclude and agree that they the aforesaid Thomas Pickering John Grove him the said late Soveraign Lord the King should kill and murder and that they the said Thomas White alias Whitebread William Ireland John Fenwick and other false Traytors to the Jurors unknown A certain number of Masses between them then and there agreed for the Health of the Soul of him the said Thomas Pickering therefore should say Celebrate and perform and therefore should pay unto the said John Grove a certain Sum of Money between them then and there agreed and the Jurors aforesaid upon their Oath aforesaid did
further present that the said Thomas Pickering and John Grove upon the agreement aforesaid then and there falsly subtilely advisedly Maliciously devilishy and Trayterously did take upon them and did promise to the said Thomas White alias Whitebread William Ireland John Fenwick and other false Traytors of our late said Soveraign Lord the King to the Jurors aforesaid unknown then and there falsly subtilely advisedly maliciously devilishy and Trayterously did promise that they the said Thomas Pickering and John Grove would kill and murder our said late Soveraign Lord the King and they the said Thomas White alias Whitebread William Ireland John Fenwick Thomas Pickering John Grove and other false Traytors of oursaid late Soveraign Lord the King afterwards to wit the said four and twentieth day of April in the thirtieth year aforesaid at the said aforesaid Parish of St. Giles in the Fields in the County of Middlesex aforesaid subtilely advisedly maliciously devilishly and Trayterously did severally every one of them give their Faith each to the other and upon the Sacrament then and there trayterously did swear and promise to conceal and not to divulge their said most wicked Treasons and Trayterous Compassings Consultations and Purposes so between them had him our said late Soveraign Lord the King Trayterously to kill and murder and the Romish Religion in this Kingdom of England to be used to introduce and the true Reformed Religion in this Kingdom of England rightly and by the Laws of the same Kingdom established to alter and change and that the said aforesaid Thomas Pickering and John Grove in Execution of their Traiterous Agreement aforesaid afterwards to wit the same Four and Twentieth day of April in the Thirtieth year aforesaid and divers other days and times after at the said aforesaid Parish of St. Giles in the Fields in the County aforesaid Muskets Pistols Swords Daggers and other offensive and cruel Weapons him the our said late Soveraign Lord the King to kill and murder falsly subtilely advisedly maliciously and Trayterously did prepare and obtain for themselves had and kept and that they the aforesaid Thomas Pickering and John Grove afterwards to wit the said Four and Twentieth Day of April in the Thirtieth year aforesaid and divers days and times afterwards with Force and Arms c. at the Parish aforesaid in the County aforesaid and in other places within the County of Middlesex aforesaid falsly subtilely advisedly maliciously devilishly and Trayterously did lie in wait and indeavour our said late Soveraign Lord the King to murder and that the said Thomas White alias Whitebread William Ireland John Fenwick and other false Traitors to the Jurors unknown afterwards to wit the same Four and Twentieth day of April in the Thirtieth year aforesaid at the Parish aforesaid in the County of Middlesex aforesaid falsly subtilely advisedly maliciously devilishly and Trayterously did prepare perswade excite abett comfort and counsel Four other Persons Men to the Jurors unknown and Subjects of our said late Soveraign Lord the King him our said late Soveraign Lord the King Trayterously to kill and murder against the Duty of their Allegiance against the Peace of our said late Soveraign Lord the King his Crown and Dignity and against the Form of the Statute in that Case made and provided and thereupon it was so far proceeded that afterwards to wit at the Court of Goal-delivery of our Soveraign Lord the King of Newgate at Justice Hall in the Old Baily in the Suburbs of the City of London in the Parish of St. Sepulchre in the Ward of Farington without London aforesaid the seventeenth day of December in the Thirtieth year aforesaid before the Justices of our said Lord the King then and there being present held by adjourment for the County of Middlesex aforesaid before whom the Indictment aforesaid was then depending came the aforesaid William Ireland Thomas Pickering and John Grove under the Custody of Sir Richard How Knight Sir John Chapman Knight Sheriffs of the County of Middlesex aforesaid into whose Custody for the Cause aforesaid before that were committed being there brought to the Bar in their proper Persons and immediately being severally spoken unto concerning the Premisses above charged upon them how they would acquit themselves thereof the aforesaid William Ireland Thomas Pickering and John Grove did say that they were not thereof guilty and for the same for good and bad they severally put themselves upon the Country and by a certain Jury of the Country on that behalf in due manner Impaneld sworn and charged then and there in the same Court before the Justices of Goal delivery aforesaid were tryed and that upon that Tryal between our said late Soveraign Lord the King and the aforesaid William Ireland Thomas Pickering and John Grove at London aforesaid to wit at Justice Hall in the Old Baily aforesaid in the Parish and Ward aforesaid the Defendant Titus Oates by the name of Titus Oates late of the Parish of St. Sepulchre aforesaid in the Ward aforesaid Clerk was a Witness produced on the Behalf of our late Soveraign Lord the King upon the Tryal aforesaid and before the aforesaid Justices of Goal-delivery in the Court aforesaid then and there held upon the Holy Evangelists of God to speak and testifie the Truth the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth of and in the Premisses between our said late Soveraign Lord the King and the aforesaid William Ireland Thomas Pickering and John Grove put in Issue was duely sworn and that he the aforesaid Titus Oates then and there in the Court of Goal delivery aforesaid upon his Oath aforesaid upon the Indictment aforesaid at the Parish and Ward aforesaid by his own proper act and consent of his most wicked Mind falsly voluntarily and corruptly did say depose swear and to the Jurors of the Jury aforesaid then and there sworn and Impanel'd to try the Issue aforesaid between our said late Soveraign Lord the King and the aforesaid William Ireland Thomas Pickering and John Grove did give in Evidence that there was a Trayterous Consult of Jesuits that were assembled at a certain Tavern called the White Horse Tavern in the Strand in the White Horse-Tavern in the Strand in the County of Midd. aforesaid meaning upon the Four and Twentieth day of April in the Year of our Lord 1678. At which Consult Whitebread Fenwick Ireland the aforesaid Thomas White alias Whitebread John Fenwick and William Ireland meaning and he the said Titus Oates were present and that the Jesuites aforesaid did separate themselves into several lesser Companies and that the Jesuites aforesaid came to a resolution to murder the said our late Lord the King and that he the said Titus Oates did carry the Resolution aforesaid from Chamber to Chamber and did see that Resolution signed by them the aforesaid Jesuites meaning whereas in truth and in deed the aforesaid Titus Oates was not present at any Consult of the Jesuites at the White Horse-Tavern aforesaid in the Strand in
that ever did appear upon the Stage either in this Kingdom or in any other Nation Mr. Sollic Gen. We will now go on with our Evidence and prove all the parts of the Indictment and first produce the Record of the Tryal of Ireland and then by Witnesses Viva voce that were present at that Tryal we shall prove what he swore and then prove that Oath of his to be false swear Mr. Swift which was done where is the Record of Ireland's Tryal Mr. Swift Here it is my Lord. Mr. Recorder Is that a true Copy Sir Mr. Swift Yes I examined this from the Record it is a true Copy L. C. J. Read it Mr. Att. Gen. If Dr. Oates does desire the whole may be read let it be so otherwise a Word of it may serve it being only an Inducement Oates Yes I desire it may be all read L. C. J. It must be read if he will have it Mr. Att. Gen. Well I submit it I did only offer it to save the time of the Court. Oates I would save the time of the Court too all that I can but I think it may be material for me to have the whole read L. C. J. In God's name let it be read we will not hinder you in any thing that may be for your defence Cl. Cr. Memorandum quod Mr. Att. Gen. Now this long Record in Latine is read I would fain know whether it be to any great purpose but only to spend time L. C. J. Nay I think it has not been very edifying to a great many do you think Mr. Oates that the Jury who are Judges of this Fact do understand it Oates I cannot tell may be they may my Lord. Mr. Jus Withens Do you understand it your self Mr. Oates Oates That 's not any Question here but to oblige the Court and the Jury I desire it may be read in English too L. C. J. No the Court understands it well enough and they can tell the Jury what it is it is only the Copy of a Record to prove that Ireland was tryed for High Treason at the Old Baily the 17th of Dec. 1678 Mr. Soll. Gen. Now my Lord we will call our Witnesses to swear what Oates did at that Tryal swear Pray swear Mr. Foster which was done Mr. Att. Gen. Pray Mr. Foster will you acquaint the Court and the Jury whether Dr. Oates was produced as a Witness at Ireland's Tryal and what he did there depose about a Consult in April 78. Mr. Foster My Lord I was so unhappy as to be one of that Jury by whom Mr. Ireland Mr. Pickering and Mr. Groves was tryed Jury Men. My Lord we desire that Mr. Foster would lift up his Voice for we cannot hear him Mr. Foster Truly my Lord I have been very sick of late and am not now very well and therefore cannot speak louder than I do L. C. J. Go nearer the Jury and speak as loud as you can Mr. Foster My Lord I say I did see Mr. Oates produced as an Evidence at the Sessions in the Old Bayly where I was so unhappy as to be a Jury Man when Mr. Pickering Mr. Ireland Mr. Grove and Mr. Whitebread were tryed Mr. Att. Gen. When was that Mr. Foster It was in December 78. Mr. Att. Gen. And what did Oates then swear Mr. Foster I did see Mr. Oates sworn as an Evidence there in behalf of the King against the Prisoners and he did then swear that there was a meeting of several Jesuites at the White Horse Tavern in the Strand upon the 24th of April 78. and that Mr. Whitebroad Mr. Ireland and Mr. Fenwick were present at the Meeting and there they did consult the Death of the King and the altering of the Religion and some went away and others came at last they reduced themselves into several smaller Companies or Clubs and they came to a resolution that Pickering and Grove should go on to assassinate the King for which the one was to have 1500 Pound and the other 30000 Masses and that this Resolution was drawn up by one Mico if I am not mistaken in his name I have it in my Notes I then took of the Evidence and he swore further that he himself went with this Resolution to several of their Chambers he went to Whitebread's Chamber and saw Whitebread sign it he went to Fenwicks Chamber and saw Fenwick sign it and went to Irelands Chamber and saw Ireland sign it and this was upon the 24th of April 78. My Lord I am positive in this for I had the good hap to take the Notes at the Tryal for my own help being a Jury-Man and I never look't upon those Notes afterwards till the printed Tryal came out and then I compared my Notes with the Print and found them to agree and I have kept them ever since by me and this is all under my own hand as I have testifyed Oates My Lord may I ask this Gentleman a Question L. C. J. Ay if the Kings Councel have done with him Mr. Att. Gen. Yes my Lord we have done with him Mr. Foster Pray my Lord give me leave to sit down for I am not able to stand Oates My Lord I desire you to ask that Gentleman whether in the Oath that I took I call'd it a Consult or I call'd it a Traiterous Consult Mr. Foster Truly I think you call'd it both if I am not mistaken but if your Lordship please I will look upon my Notes L. C. J. You may look upon your Notes to refresh your Memory if you will Mr. Just Withens Truly I think if it were a Consult to murder the King it must be a traiterous one without doubt Oates Sir that is not to the Purpose my Question is what I swore it was L. C. J. He tells you he beleives you did swear both ways Mr. Foster At that Consult he said such a Resolution was taken and I think he called it a Traiterous Consult Oates If you please I 'le tell your Lordship the Reason why I asked that Question L. C. J. No you may save your self the trouble of that you best know the reason of your own Questions he has given you a satisfactory answer Oates Then if your Lordship please ask him this Question whether I swore that all these 3 Jesuites were present at one time or how many of them L. C. J. You hear the Question what say you to it Mr. Foster Sir you swore that Ireland Fenwick and Whitebread were at that Consult but whether they were all three of them there at one time I cannot tell or which of them were together but this you did swear that they were there and came to such a resolution and you carryed it to all their Chambers and did see them sign it Mr. Just Withens He gives you a plain account what you did swear I think Mr. Oates Oates Very well my Lord I would ask him a third Question if you please L. C. J. Ay in God's Name ask
and the three and twentieth of April New Stile I saw the Prisoner at St. Omers and went to School with him and on the four and twentieth I came from St. Omers and went to Callis and from thence into England but he was never in my Company all the while I was coming for England though he swore he came over with me L. C. J. The three and twentieth of April you say you saw him Mr. Hilsley Yes I was with him that was the day before I came from St. Omers L. C. J. You left him there the day before you came away you say Mr. Hilsley I did not see him that morning that I came away but here are others that did Mr. Att. Gen. Was he a Scholar there Mr. Hilsley Yes my Lord he was Mr. Att. Gen. Did you know him very well Mr. Hilsley Yes my Lord I did Mr. Att. Gen. Did he come over into England with you Mr. Hilsley My Lord I came from St. Omers to Callis and never saw him from Callis to Dover I never saw him from Dover to London I never saw him all the way and I am confident he was not in the same Ship I came over in for I should have seen him if he had Mr. Att. Gen. Was he for some time before that constantly at St. Omers Mr. Hilsley Yes we went perpetually to School together L. C. J. What time did you take shipping after you went from St. Omers Mr. Hilsley The very next day the day I went from St. Omers was on the Sunday morning on Monday I took shipping from Callis to Dover and I arrived at England at ten of the Clock the same Night Oates When does he say he arrived in England L. C. J. He says he went from St. Omers on the Sunday he came that Night to Callis and the next day went on Board from Callis and came that Night to Dover that was Monday night Mr. Hilsley Yes I came that Night to Dover and I lay there that Monday Night the next day was the 26th of April New Stile Mr. Att. Gen. Where come you then from thence Mr. Hilsley I came as far as Bockton Street and there I lay 4 or 5 days and then I came to Cittenbourn and by long Sea from thence to London Mr. Att. Gen. Where did you meet Mr. Burnaby Mr. Hilsley I met him hard by there at a Relations of mine Mr. Att. Gen. Do you remember what day you met him Mr. Hilsley I think it was a day or two before I came away from thence to London Mr. Just Withens Had you any Discourse with Mr. Oates about your coming into England Mr. Hilsley Nothing at all Sir Francis that I remember L. C. J. What time did you come to London Mr. Hilsley I came within a few days to London I stayed 4 or 5 days there by the way and I saw Mr. Burnaby within 4 days I think after I came into England It was about Monday seven-night after I came from St. Omers that I came to London Mr. Att. Gen. That was May New Stile Mr. Hilsley That is their Stile It was so Mr. Soll. Gen. In our Stile it was the 21. of April Mr. Hanseys Pray did you give an account to any Body after you came to London that you left Oates at St. Omers when you came away Mr. Hilsley What say you Mr. Hanseys I did not well understand your Question L. C. J. Then mind me Sir It was asked of you whether you had any discourse with any Body after you came hither that you had left Mr. Oates behind you at St. Omers Mr. Hilsley I did tell some Persons I left an English Parson there at the same time I came away L. C. J. Did you not name him who it was Mr. Hilsley Yes I named him by the Name he went by there and that was Sampson Lucy Mr. Att. Gen. To whom did you tell it Mr. Hilsley To one Mr. Osbourn Mr. Soll. Gen. Did he go by that Name of Sampson Lucy in the Colledge Mr. Hilsley Yes he did sometimes he had three or four Names he was called sometimes Titus Ambrosius Oates Now my Lord I desire I may ask that Gentleman a Question or two L. C. J. Ay if they have done with him Mr. Att. Gen. We have my Lord. L. C. J. Then ask him what you will Oates I desire my Lord that you would be pleased to ask that Gentleman what Religion he is of for it is a fair Question and an equitable one And that which very nearly concerns me and I desire to know where he lives L. C. J. What Religion are you of Sir Mr. Hilsley I am a Roman Catholick L. C. J. Where do you live Mr. Hilsley I live in London I am of the Inner Temple L. C. J. He says that he is a Roman Catholick and lives in London Oates Pray be pleased my Lord to ask him when he went to St. Omers first and how long he stayed there Mr. Hilsley My Lord I was there about six years I presume it was about the year 1672. when I went there first Oates Pray ask him what he did there what was his business Mr. Att. Gen. That is not a pertinent Question at all with submission my Lord. Oates I beseech you Mr. Attorney give me leave to ask my own Questions L. C. J. Ay but you must ask fair and pertinent Questions Oates My Lord I would know what was his employment there at St. Omers Mr. Hilsley I know not my self of any particular employment I had any more than any of the rest that were there L. C. J. But Mr. Oates you must not ask any such Questions what know I but by asking him the Question you may make him obnoxious to some Penalty you must not ask him any Questions to ensnare him Oates My Lord it tends very much to my Defence to have that Question truly answered L. C. J. But if it tends to your Defence never so much you must not subject him to a Penalty by your Questions Oates The nature of my Defence requires an answer to that Question L. C. J. But shall you make a man liable to punishment by ensnaring Questions if a man should ask you what Religion you are of Oates My Lord I will tell you by and by my reason and I hope a good one why I ask it L. C. J. I do not believe you can have any Reason but to be sure we must not suffer any such entangling Questions to be asked Oates Pray ask him my Lord when I came to St. Omers L. C. J. When did Oates come to St. Omers Mr. Hilsley As well as I remember he came to St. Omers either the latter end of November or the beginning of December in the year 1677. I think it was that year Oates I defire you would ask him whether they were not Priests and Jesuites that govern'd that House L. C. J. What a Question is that I tell you 't is not fit to be asked Oates
I demand an answer to it upon the Oath he has taken L. C. J. And I tell you upon the Oath you have taken you are not bound to answer any such Question Oates Good my Lord let my Questions be answered L. C. J. No Sir they shall not How now do not think to put Irregularities upon us if you will behave your self as you ought to do and keep to that which is proper well and good Oates If your Lordship please I think this very proper for me L. C. J. What to ask such improper Questions as these are Oates Truly my Lord I think they are fit Questions to be asked L. C. J. But we are all of another opinion Oates My Lord I desire to know whether they are not set on by their Superiours to do this L. C. J. That is not a fair Question neither Oates Give me leave to make my defence my Lord I beseech you L. C. J. Ay in Gods name but I pray you then make it in a regular and becoming way for I know of no Priviledge you have more than other People to use Witnesses as you do Oates My Lord I look upon my self as hardly used in the case L. C. J. I care not what you look upon your self to be if you will ask Questions ask none but fair Questions and while you keep within Bounds you shall be heard as well as any of the Kings Subjects but if you will break out into Questions that are impertinent extravagant or ensnaring we must correct you and keep you within proper Limits Oates Then my Lord I ask whether he was not a Witness at the Tryal of the Five Jesuites and at Langhorn's Tryal L. C J. Ay that is a proper Question what say you to 't Sir Mr. Hilsley I was so Sir Oates Pray my Lord ask him what Credit he received at those Tryals L. C. J. What a Question is that to ask any man Oates My Lord I think it is a fair Question L. C. J. No indeed it is not a fair one at all Oates My Lord I desire to know what induces him to come here as a Witness now since it appears that now he comes to give an Evidence that he gave six years ago and was not believed Mr. Hilsley My Lord I am subpoena'd L. C. J. He has given you an answer to the Question though I think it was an idle Question and not at all to the purpose Oates It may be he may have some particular reason to induce him to it now L. C. J. Well he tells you he came because he was subpoena'd and that is sufficient He is not compellable to be a Witness unless he be subpoena'd but if a man will come without a Subpoena and give Evidence in a Cause that is no objection to his testimony Oates My Lord I desire to know of him whether he is to have any Reward for swearing in this Cause L. C. J. What say you Sir are you to have any Reward for your Evidence Mr. Hilsley None at all as I know of my Lord I assure you Mr. Just Withens He is not paid for his Evidence Mr. Oates Oates If he be or be not I cannot tell nor do I know who ever was paid for it L. C. J. Have you any more Questions to ask him Oates Pray my Lord I desire to know what was the occasion of his coming away from St. Omers Mr. Hilsley I had finished my Studies Oates Pray my Lord be pleased to ask him if he never heard of any Consult of the Jesuites here in England in the Month of April 78. and from whom he did hear of it Mr. Hilsley I did hear of it among the rest of the Students of the Colledge L. C. J. What did you hear of Mr. Hilsley I did hear of a Consult of ahe Fathers in April 1678. Mr. Att. Gen. Yes there was but not such an one as Mr. Oates speaks of nor was he at it Mr. J. Holloway For what was that Consult I pray you Mr. Hilsley It was nothing but a Triennial Congregation about the Affairs of the Society L. C. J. What were they to do there Mr. Hilsley My Lord I was informed among them there that it was only what they used to have once in 3 years for ordinary Affairs Oates My Lord he pretends to tell when I came thither I desire to know of him from what time it was he saw me there and how often Mr. Hilsley Generally every day as near as I can remember I think Mr. Oates you and I Mr. Oates went to School in the same place Oates Pray how many days was I absent from thence in that time you were there Mr. Hilsley You were there generally as often as I I do not know whether ever you mist a day or no. Oates Pray my Lord will you ask this Gentleman one question more whether he can particularly tell that he did see me every day at St. Omers For 't is not enough for him to swear that he saw me there but he ought to give an account how he comes to know it by some particular Circumstances L. C. J. He has given you several Circumstances of his Knowledge for he says he was there all the while from your coming till 23d of April New Stile that he came for England he says he was a Scholar in the same Form and Class with you and because he does not remember himself to have been absent he does not remember you to be absent neither Mr. Att. Gen. And he swears particularly to the very time he came over which was April 14th Old Stile Oates Well I have no more Questions to ask this Gentleman L. C. J. Then call another Mr. Soll. Gen. Cryer call Mr. John Dorrel who was sworn L. C. J. Look ye Mr. Attorney you did open things at the first for Methods sake by Periods of time the first was Hilsleys coming over the next was the meeting with Bournaby now pray observe that Method and call that Bournaby next Mr. Att. Gen. My Lord we shall call him by and by but we have not done with this business about Hilsley we have some Witnesses that will give an Evidence to strengthen and back his Testimony Come Mr. Dorrel what have you to say to this matter Mr. Dorrel My Lord in April 1678. I came from Brussels to England where presently after I came I was with one Mr. Osbourn and my Mother and there was a Discourse between my Mother and him about Religion L. C. J. Where was that Mr. Dorrel It was here in England Mr. Att. Gen. Now tell the time when that was Mr. Dorrel As near as I can guess it was 15 or 16 of April Old Stile in the year 1678. Mr. Att. Gen. Well Sir go on with your Story Mr. Dorrel My Mother was laughing at his Religion and telling him some ridiculous Stories and he replyed there are a great many that are so ignorant that are bred up in the Religion of the Church
of England that they are forced to be sent to the Colledges abroad to be taught even some of the Clergy of that Church and particulariz'd in one Sampson Lucy alias Oates that was a Scholar at that time at St. Omers as he was assured by a Gentleman that was newly come from thence My Mother is now sick or else she would have been here and would have testifyed the same I now do Mr. Soll. Gen. This Gentleman is a Protestant Mr. Oates Oates What is your Name Sir I pray Mr. Dorrel My Name is John Dorrel Sir Oates Were you never at St. Omers a Student there Mr. Dorrel I was there but before your time Doctor I had not the happiness to be there while you were there Oates I pray Sir what Religion are you of Mr. Dorrel I am a Papist now Oates I desire my Lord the court would be pleased to take notice of it he owns he was reconciled to the Church of Rome Mr. Dorrel Mr. Oates to satisfie you I went over when I was Child of 12. or 13. years old and so was bread in that perswasion L. C. J. Well well we all observe what he says Mr. Soll. Gen. Pray swear Mr. Osbourn which was done Mr. Att. Gen. My Lord we call'd this Person only to this matter Pray Sir will you give the Court and the Jury an account what Discourse you had with Mr. Hilsley about Oates and pray Sir tell the time when it was Mr. Osbourn My Lord I went out of Town the 30th of April the year before the pretended Plot was discovered by Mr. Oates and I met with Mr. Hilsley two or three days before and enquiring of him about the Affairs of St. Omers he told me of a Minister of the Church of England that was come thither to be a Student there who went under the name of Sampson Lucy but his right Name was Oates I asked him what he pretended to did he intend to be of that order he told me he did believe that he would not be admitted for his Irregular and Childish Behaviour and that he had left him in the Colledge and this I afterwards in Discourse told to Madam Dorrel who is a Protestant and to my Mother who is since dead Mr. Att. Gen. Will Mr. Oates ask this Gentleman any Questions Oates I only ask him what Religion he is of L. C. J. What Religion are you of Sir Mr. Osbourn I am a Roman Catholick my Lord. Mr. Soll. Gen. Now my Lord we come to call Mr. Bournaby Pray swear him which was done Mr. Att. Gen. Mr. Bournaby pray will you acquaint my Lord and the Jury of the time when you came from St. Omers to England and when you met with Mr. Hilsley Mr. Bournaby I met with Hilsley on the 18th of April Old Stile in the year 78. then I pursued my Journey the following day to St. Omers L. C. J. Where did you meet him Mr. Bournaby Between Cittenbourn and Canterbury and afterwards I pursued my Journey from Canterbury to Dover from thence to Callis and from thence to St. Omers I arrived at St. Omers the 21. of April Old Stile which was the first of May New Stile upon the Second of May Mr. Oates was in my Company I was walking in the Garden and he came into my Company L. C. J. When was it Mr. Bournaby The Second of May New Stile and the Third of May again I went into the Garden and there he was with me again and the Fifth of May I saw him again L. C. J. Where Mr. Bournaby In the Rhetorick Form L. C. J. But where in what place Mr. Bournaby At St. Omers L. C. J. You speak of your own Knowledge you are sure you saw him there at those Times Mr. Bournaby Yes in the Rhetorick School and in the Garden Mr. Att. Gen. What more do you know of him Mr. Bournaby I saw him again the 8th of May New Stile that is the 28th of April Old Stile I mean by New Stile that Stile which was used in the Place where I was then Mr. Att. Gen. How long was he there before he went away Mr. Bournaby I know he was there from the Second of May the day after I came thither to the 20th of June and then I went away or thereabouts L. C. J. Did you see him daily all that time Mr. Bournaby Yes from day to day he was not out of the House L. C. J. Were you a Scholar there with him Mr. Bournaby Yes I was L. C. J. What year was that Mr. Bournaby In the year 78. Mr. Att. Gen. Mr. Oates may ask him what Questions he will Oates My Lord he says he went awaw I desire to know whither he did go Mr. Bournaby I went away the 20th of June from St. Omers it is no matter whither I went Oates I desire he may give an account what Religion he is of Mr. Bournaby I am a Roman Catholick Oates My Lord I desire to know whether he be not of that order L. C. J. That I will not ask him I 'le assure you Oates Truly my Lord I think it is a very hard matter for me to have Jesuites admitted as Witnesses in such a cause against me L. C. J. I have told you already you are not to ask any Questions of any Witnesses that may subject them to any Penalty or make them accuse themselves of any Crime Oates My Lord I humbly desire he would give an account whether he were not admitted into the Society L. C. J. I tell you he is not to be ask't that question Oates He has own'd before L. C. J. Do you take your advantage of it if you can prove it Oates Then my Lord I desire to ask him whether or no he did appear as a Witness at the Tryal of the 5 Jesuites Mr. Bournaby No my Lord I did not Oates Pray my Lord ask him whether he was not summon'd to appear then Mr. Bournaby No I was not Oates Pray my Lord ask him what Reward he is to have for coming and giving this Evidence L. C. J. Are you to have any Reward for being a Witness in this Cause Mr. Bournaby None my Lord that I know of L. C. J. That was a proper Question to be asked and you have a fair Answer to it Oates Pray Mr. Bournaby by what name did you go at St. Omers Mr. Bournaby By the Name of Blunt Mr. Att. Gen. And what name did he go by there Mr. Bournaby Who Sir Mr. Att. Gen. Mr. Oates Mr. Bournaby By the Name of Sampson Lucy Oates My Lord I desire you to ask him whether he did know of any consult that was to be held here in London in April 78. and by whom he knew it L. C. J. What say you Sir did you know of any Consult Mr. Bournaby No I neither heard of it nor knew any thing of it Mr. Att. Gen. Now my Lord we shall go on to another Period of time and that is concerning Pool Swear
Mr. Pool which was done Mr. Soll. Gen. Pray will you acquaint my Lord and the Jury whether you knew Mr. Bournaby at St. Omers Mr. Pool Yes I did Sir Mr. Soll. Gen. Do you know the time when he came to St. Omers Mr. Pool No I do not remember it Mr. Att. Gen. When did you come over from St. Omers Mr. Pool The 25th of April Mr. Att. Gen. What Stile Mr. Pool Old Stile Mr. Att. Gen. In what year Mr. Pool In the year 78. Mr. Att. Gen. Did you know Mr. Oates at St. Omers Mr. Pool Yes I did know that Gentleman there Mr. Att. Gen. Was he at St. Omers that time you were there Mr. Pool Yes he was Mr. Sol. Gen. Did you leave him there when you came away Mr. Pool Yes I did leave him there when I came away Mr. Soll. Gen. Pray tell the Court some particular thing why you remember it and upon what account you came away Mr. Pool Upon the occasion of my Brothers Death I came over and I can tell several particulars of my Journey I came away upon the Thursday and I came to London upon the Sunday following Mr. Att. Gen. You are sure you left Mr. Oates there then Mr. Pool Yes I am sure I did leave Mr. Oates there when I came away and I came away thence the Fifth of May New Stile the Twenty Fifth of April Old Stile Mr. Soll. Gen. Pray how long did you know Mr. Oates there Mr. Pool I knew him there from Christmas before that L. C. J. You were of the Colledge were you not Mr. Pool Yes I was a Student there L. C. J. You are sure he was there all the while Mr. Pool I do not remember he was a day absent and if he had gone away particular notice would have been taken of it L. C. J. Did you see him there two or three days before you came away Mr. Pool I saw him that morning I came away L. C. J. And what time before Mr. Pool I saw him two or three days before that L. C. J. Can you name any particular days Mr. Pool I saw him the first of May and the Second of May and the fifth of May which was the 25th of April Old Stile and then I came away L. C. J. Are you sure you left him there then Mr. Pool I am sure I left him there I can swear it without any difficulty at all L. C. J. What do you ask him Mr. Oates Oates I desire to know what Religion he is of L. C. J. What Religion are you of Mr. Pool I am a Roman Catholick Oates I desire your Lordship would ask him whether he was a Witness at the Tryal of the 5 Jesuites or at Langhorn's Tryal Mr. Pool No I was never an Evidence before in my Life Oates Pray my Lord ask him whether he was not admitted into the Sodality of the Virgin Mary L. C. J. No indeed I shall ask him no such Question Oates Pray my Lord let him answer it L. C. J. Prove what you can when it comes to your turn but ask him no entangling Questions Oates He has made himself liable to a Penalty by being in that Seminary L. C. J. I hope a Man may be at St. Omers and yet not be punished for it Mr. Oates Oates It is my defence to disable the Witnesses against me L. C. J. But they must not be askt what may make them accuse themselves Oates My Lord it is hard that the Witnesses shall not be made to answer my Questions L. C. J. Pray Sir be quiet we have told you often enough already you must not think to govern us it must not be allowed Oates My Lord I desire he may be askt then what Reward he has to come and swear in this Cause Mr. Pool My Lord I do not know that I am so much as to have my Charges born L. C. J. Are you to have any Reward Mr. Pool No my Lord that I know of Oates Pray my Lord I desire he may ask't what was the occasion of Mr. Hilsleys coming away from St. Omers Mr. Pool Indeed I did not examine into the occasion at all for I was never a man that medled or made on any side but lived quietly in the Colledge and minded my Studies Oates My Lord I desire your Lordship to ask him whether he did know of any Consult of the Jesuites in April 78. and from whom he knew it Mr. Pool I know not of any particular Consult I heard something in general of a Triennial Congregation but I cannot speak any thing of my own Knowledge Oates My Lord I desire to know of him if he can tell when I came to St. Omers L. C. J. Do you know when Oates came to St. Omers Mr. Pool About Christmas as near as I can remember it was the latter end of November Oates How much before or after Christmas was it Mr. Pool I cannot tell exactly Oates What year was it in Mr. Pool In the year 77. Oates I desire to know of him my Lord whether he saw me every day at St. Omers at dinner Mr. Pool I cannot say that ever I knew he was absent any one day never 3 days I think I may affirm but only when he was in the Infirmary Mr. Att. Gen. That 's the place where they go when they are Sick Oates Pray my Lord ask him by what name he went when he was there in the Colledge Mr. Pool By the name of Killingbeck Mr. Sol. Gen. By what name did he go by I pray you Mr. Pool By the name of Sampson Lucy Mr. Sol. Gen. Swear Mr. Henry Thornton which was done Mr. Ait Gen. Mr. Thornton pray where were you in the year 78. Mr. Thornton At St. Omers my Lord. Mr. Att. Gen. Do you remember Mr. Oates there do you know him Mr. Thornton Yes I know him very well Mr. Att. Gen. When did he come thither Mr. Thornton He came there about Christmas 77. Mr. Att. Gen. How long did he continue there Mr. Thornton He staid there till St. John Baptist's Eve in June 78. Mr. Att. Gen. Midsummer you mean Mr. Thornton Yes the Eve of St. John Baptist Mr. Att. Gen. What Stile Mr. Thornton New Stile Mr. Soll. Gen. Did you see him there all the while Mr. Thornton Yes I did see him every day I believe in the Refectory at Dinner time and at Night in the Dormitory where all the Collegians have their Beds I lay over against him every Night I saw him particularly upon the day of Hilsley's departure which was the 24th of April New Stile and I saw him the first of May New Stile upon the coming of Mr. Bournaby to the Colledge and particularly again I remember him there the 2d of May when my Schoolfellows exhibited an Action or Play Mr. Att. Gen. Was Mr. Oates there then Mr. Thornton Yes I saw him present at it and I know it by this particular Circumstance there was a scufflle between him and another
about a place to see the Play Mr. Jenes Did you see him the 23d of April Old Style that is the third of May New Style which was the day after your Play that you remember Mr. Thornton I do not remember that I did see him that day by any particular circumstance though I believe I did Mr. Jones Do you remember when Mr. Poole came away from St. Omers Mr. Thornton Yes I do Mr. Jones When was that Mr. Thornton The 5th of May New Style Mr. Jones Was Oates at St. Omers at that time Mr. Thornton Yes he was there then I am sure Mr. Att. Gen. Was not he Reader there in the Colledge Mr. Thornton He was Reader in the Sodality and to my knowledge he did not miss once from the 24th of April New Style to the 24th of May New Style from being there and reading in the Sodality L. C. J. What did he use to read Mr. Thornton Some Spiritual Book or piece of Divinity or the like as it was usual to have read every Sunday and Holidy L. C. J. And that is one reason why you conclude he was there all that while because every Sunday and Holiday he was to read and did read Mr. Thornton Yes my Lord. Oates Pray my Lord be pleased to ask this Gentleman what Religion he is of Mr. Thornton A Roman Catholick Oates Where does he live L. C. J. Where do you live Mr. Thornton Mr. Thornton I am a Northumberland man that 's my Country Oates Mr. Lord I desire to know of him when he did come from St. Omers Mr. Thornton I came from St. Omers my Lord about two years after that Oates went away from thence Oates Pray my Lord be pleased to ask him who it was that was Rector or Governour of that House or Colledge Mr. Thornton It was one Mr. Richard Ashby Oates Pray my Lord be pleased to ask him what School he was in there Mr. Thornton I was in Sintaxe my Lord. Oates Then my Lord I would ask him another question and that is this whether he was not a Witness in behalf of the five Jesuits and Mr. Langhorn Mr. Thornton No I was not my Lord. Oates My Lord I desire to know if he can tell the occasion of Mr. Hilsley coming away from St. Omers Mr. Thornton It never concerned me at all and I never enquired into it Oates Then my Lord I would ask him this question why he is so precise as to his Remembrance of what was done in April and May when he does not give any account of any other time nor did the other Witnesses L. C. J. Yes but they do they give you a particular account from the time of your coming thither which was about Christmas some say the latter end of November or the beginning of December they are not positive to any particular time but thereabouts and so from that time all along till June Oates I beg your Lordships pardon I did not hear that he said any such thing L. C. J. If you will I 'll ask him that question again for your satisfaction Oates If you please my Lord. L. C. J. Then mind what is said Do you remember that Oates was there in March before and in February before Mr. Thornton Yes I particularly remember in March before he did read a Ridiculous Book in the Sodality and he was remarkable in the House by twenty Ridiculous passages Oates I do acknowledge I did in March read a pleasant Book called The Contempt of the Clergy L. C. J. By whose Order did he read that Book in the Sodality Mr. Thornton I do not know whether it was by his own election that he was Reader there or by the Command of the Prefect of the Studies that has the Care of the Students and appoints them their Business Oates Pray my Lord be pleased to ask him how long he was Resident at St. Omers Mr. Thornton I was there seven years L. C. J. You said he was there in June till Midsummer Eve Mr. Thornton Yes he was so Oates I own that I was there in June but that was after I returned from England L. C. J. When do you say he left the Colledge first Mr. Thornton He never left the Colledge from the time of his coming thither first till Midsummer Eve only one time that he was at Watton and that was but a day or two at most which is not a League out of Town L. C. J. Do you remember him there about Christmas time Mr. Thornton Yes my Lord very well L. C. J. When was it he went to Watton Mr. Thornton About the latter end of January as I do remember and in February above Shrovetide I remember him particularly to be there L. C. J. Now Mr. Oates you see he speaks to other times besides April and May and he brings upon my word very notable circumstances Oates He says he went to School with me there I think my Lord. Mr. Thornton No I say he was in the same Colledge L. C. J. But not in the same Classis for it seems you were in the Rhetorick Form and he in the Syntax Mr. Thornton My Lord he went there by reason of his Age and upon no other account he might have gone elsewhere with us who were of a lower Form for any great store of Learning he had L. C. J. You hear him I suppose Mr. Oates he gives no great commendation of your Scholarship Oates That is nothing to this question but pray my Lord be pleased to ask him whether he did not hear of a Consult of the Jesuits held here in England in April 78. L. C. J. What say you Sir Did you hear of any such Consult Mr. Thornton Yes my Lord I did hear of a Triennial Congregation such as used to be held by them but that did not belong to me to enquire into it Oates My Lord I desire to know of whom he did hear it L. C. J. How do you know there was such a Consult who told you of it Mr. Thornton I heard of it in the House and I had read that it was the Custom of that Society of People to have such a meeting once in three years Mr. Att. Gen. Pray for what purpose did they so meet Mr. Thornton As I have been told It was to send a Procurator to Rome and for their managing their other Affairs which concern'd their Society Mr. Sol. Gen. Have the Jesuits usually such a Consult once in three years Sir Mr. Thornton I was never present at any such Congregation I was not capable of it L. C. J. But was it us'd to be said so Mr. Thornton Yes my Lord I have heard it said so and read of it L. C. J. Mr. Oates Will you ask him any more questions Oates No my Lord. L. C. J. Well then go on Mr. Attorney and call another Witness Mr. Att. Gen. Swear Mr. William Conway which was done Mr. Sol. Gen. Mr. Conway pray will you give my Lord and the Jury
an account where you were in the year 1677. and in the year 1678. Mr. Conway I was then at St. Omers my Lord. Mr. Sol. Gen. Do you remember Mr. Oates there at any time Mr. Conway Yes my Lord I do Mr. Sol. Gen. Pray at what time was he there as you remember Mr. Conway He came in December before Christmas 1677. and did not go away till June 1678. Mr. Sol. Gen. What time in June did he go away Mr. Conway About the twentieth of June I think Mr. Sol. Gen. Were you there all that year Mr. Conway Yes I was there a Scholar in the Colledge Mr. Jones Was he all the time you speak of in the Colledge Mr. Conway He lay out one night Mr. Sol. Gen. What time was that Mr. Conway In January to the best of my remembrance Mr. Sol. Gen. Could he be out of the Colledge any time and not be mist Mr. Conway No my Lord he could not Mr. Sol. Gen. Did you miss him at any time Mr. Conway No my Lord. Mr. Sol. Gen. Was he there in April 1678 Mr. Conway Yes my Lord. Mr. Sol. Gen. Can you tell any particular passages that can make you remember it Mr. Conway Yes my Lord I can Mr. Sol. Gen. Tell my Lord and the Jury how you can remember it Mr. Conway I remember Mr. Hilsley's departure which was the 24th of April New Style and soon after Mr. Bournaby came but I do not know the time exactly I was desirous to know of Mr. Bournaby whether he met Mr. Hilsley upon the way and he told me he did meet him and the next day I saw Mr. Oates and Mr. Bournaby walking together very familiarly and I took particular notice of it at that time Mr. Bournaby being but newly come so that I took him to have known Mr. Bournaby before or else I concluded him to be a little impudent by his intruding into his company Mr. Sol. Gen. Do you remember him in March before Mr. Conway Yes Sir Mr. Sol. Gen. What particulars do you remember of his being there then Mr. Conway I remember him to be there on the Thursday in Mid-Lent the Scholars in the Colledge had a particular Recreation which they call Sawing of the Witch and Mr. Oates was among them and I was one of them that broke a Pan about his head for Recreation Mr. Sol. Gen. Do you remember the first of May that there was in your Colledge a Play acted Mr. Conway As for the Play I remember what part Esquire Pool acted in it but I remember not any particulars that can make me so sure as to swear that Oates were there Mr. Att. Gen. Do you remember any scuffling for a place there Mr. Conway I do not remember it of my own knowledge I heard of it afterwards Mr. Sol. Gen. You say that you saw Mr. Bournaby and him walking together the next day after he came Mr. Conway Yes I did so Sir Mr. Sol. Gen. Did Oates use to read in the Sodality Mr. Conway My Lord there was another chosen according to the Custom to read but Mr. Oates took the Book and did read Mr. Sol. Gen. Did he read constantly Mr. Conway I did never miss him any Sunday or Holyday all the time L. C. J. From what time to what time did he read Mr. Conway From a little after Easter till he went away Mr. Att. Gen. Is it usually taken notice of in the Colledge when any person who is a Student goes away from the Colledge Mr. Conway There is nothing more discoursed of among Scholars than that when it happens any one goes out of the Colledge L. C. J. And pray when did he go away Mr. Conway In June about the twentieth as near as I can remember Mr. Sol. Gen. Did you observe him at Dinner there constantly Mr. Conway Yes he sate by himself Mr. Sol. Gen. How came that to pass Mr. Conway He sate at a little Table in the Hall by himself for he pretended being a man in years he could not Diet as the rest of the young Students did and therefore obtained leave to sit alone at a little Table by himself and he sate next to the Table of the Fathers to which all the Students were to make their Reverence before they sate down L. C. J. He was a very Remarkable man by his sitting by himself Did he sit there alwaies Mr. Conway He changed his Table once and I took notice that he sate on the other side of the Refectory Mr. Sol. Gen. When was that I pray can you remember Mr. Conway That was a little after Easter Mr. Att. Gen. Will Mr. Oates ask him any Questions Oates Pray my Lord will you ask this Gentleman what Religion he is of Mr. Conway I am a Roman Catholick Oates Pray ask him where he lives L. C. J. Where do you live Sir Mr. Conway Where now at present my Lord L. C. J. Where do you usually live Mr. Conway I am a Flintshire man my Lord. Oates Pray ask him what Name he did go by at St. Omers Mr. Conway By the name of William Parry Oates Pray ask him by what name he gave his Evidence in at the five Jesuits Tryal L. C. J. Were you a Witness at the Tryal of the five Jesuits Mr. Conway Yes I was L. C. J. By what name did you give your Evidence there Mr. Conway By the name of Parry Oates Then I desire the Court to take notice he represented himself by a feigned name in a Court of Record Mr. Conway I went by both names my Lord. L. C. J. Well make what advantage you can of it by and by Oates Pray my Lord ask him if ever he heard of any Consult of the Jesuits held here in England in April 1678 Mr. Conway Yes I did Oates Pray my Lord ask him who inform'd him of that Consult Mr. Conway I heard it among the rest of the Scholars and seeing some of the Fathers go over to it I was told so Mr. Att. Gen. Is it an usual thing for them to have such meetings Mr. Conway They have a Congregation ordinarily once in three years Mr. Sol. Gen. Does it go by the name of a Consult or what name has it Mr. Conway Some call it a Congregation and some a Consult M. Sol. Gen. What is the end of such meeting as you have heard Mr. Conway They say it was to chuse a Procurator to send to Rome and give an account of the Province Oates My Lord I would ask him another question whether he is to have any Reward for giving this Evidence here Mr. Conway No not that I know of but what I expect from Almighty God Oates Pray ask him how long he lived at St. Omers Mr. Conway Five years Oates My Lord I have done with him Mr. Sol. Gen. Then call Mr. Haggerstone and swear him which was done Mr. Att. Gen. Mr. Haggerstone pray will you acquaint my Lord and the Jury were you at St. Omers in the year 1678. with
Mr. Oates Mr. Haggerstone Yes I was my Lord I had the honour to be of the same Bench with the Doctor of Salamanca L. C. J. You mean you were of the same Class with him Mr. Haggerstone Yes my Lord of the same Class L. C. J. In what year was it Mr. Haggerstone In the year 1678. Mr. Att. Gen. In what Form were you Mr. Haggerstone In the same Bench with Doctor Oates in the Rhetorick Form Mr. Att. Gen. Do you remember Mr. Oates in April 1678 Mr. Haggerstone Yes Mr. Att. Gen. What time Mr. Haggerstone He spoke unto me on the 25th of April Mr. Att. Gen. What Style do you mean Mr. Haggerstone New Style Sir to avoid confusion I speak of the Style of the place where I was he asked me concerning our School-fellow Mr. Hilsley who was then gone from the Colledge whether I had heard any thing from him since he went away and he spoke of an indisposition he had for which he prescribed him a Medicine of Poppy and he thought it would do his business effectually L. C. J. Who said so Mr. Haggerstone The Doctor of Salamanca he was called Sampson Lucy in the Colledge and likewise he forbid him to chew Tobacco which he us'd to do very much he was called Titus Ambrosius he had twenty Names Mr. Att. Gen. Was he there all April Sir Mr. Haggerstone Yes he was Sir Mr. Att. Gen. Did you know him in March before Mr. Haggerstone Yes he was there all March before Mr. Att. Gen. Was he there in February Mr. Haggerstone Yes as near as I can remember he was absent but one day and then he went to Watton in February or else in January L. C. J. Do you remember when he came thither first Mr. Hagggerstone Yes my Lord he came in December near Christmas as I remember L. C. J. Was it about that time upon your Oath Mr. Haggerstone I speak it upon my Oath it was L. C. J. When did he go away Mr. Haggerstone About the latter end of June L. C. J. Was he absent any time between December and June Mr. Haggerstone I do not remember that he was absent save only in January or February and that was not for above a night when he went to Watton L. C. J. Might not he be absent and you not mind it or know it Mr. Haggerstone Sure if he had been absent we could not but have known it L. C. J. How so pray you Mr. Haggerstone If any goes away 't is so publick that it cannot be without notice being taken of it Mr. Att. Gen. Can you remember by any particular token he was there in April or May Mr. Haggerstone He spoke to me on the 29th of April New Style and told me that there was a Craving English-man had been there to beg an Alms and there was a Collection made for him among the Scholars but he said he would give him nothing for he told me he had been cheated by such an one of some Pieces of Eight in Spain this I remember was the 28th or 29th of April New Style I saw him there the first of May upon the second of May there was an Action of the Scholars and he was present at it the fifth of May I was at School with him when Mr. Pool went away for England and I heard him about that time preach a pleasant Sermon for he would undertake sometimes to preach and he said in it That the late King Charles the Second halted betwixt two Opinions and a stream of Popery went between his Leggs L. C. J. Was this in May Mr. Haggerstone Yes just after Mr. Pool went away for England and he had some pretty Reflections in his Sermon about Toby's Dogg wagging his Tail L. C. J. Well do you ask this Witness any question Mr. Oates Oates Pray be pleased to ask him my Lord what Religion he is of Mr. Haggerstone I am a Papist my Lord I am not asham'd of it Oates Pray my Lord ask where he lives Mr. Haggerstone At London Oates Pray ask him what Country-man he is Mr. Haggerstone I am a Northumberland man my Father is Sir Thomas Haggerstone a man better known than your Father Doctor Oates L. C. J. Nay nay do not be in a passion man Oates Pray ask him how long I was with him at St. Omers Mr. Haggerstone For half a year at least Oates My Lord I desire to know how long he stayed there himself Mr. Haggerstone I studied my whole Course of Humanity there L. C. J. How long were you there in all Mr. Haggerstone Seven years Oates Pray my Lord ask him whether he knows of any Consult held or to be held here in England in April 1678. Mr. Haggerstone Yes my Lord I saw two of the Fathers go from St. Omers to the Congregation and was there at their return but all that time I frequented Doctor Oates's company and he remained in the Colledge Oates Pray who were these two Fathers Mr. Haggerstone Mr. Williams and Mr. Marsh and when they return'd Oates asked me about it whether they had been at the Consult and I told him there was such a thing but he never knew it till afterwards but this I am sure of he was never missing all the while I sate on the same Bench with him Oates Pray my Lord ask him what name he went by at St. Omers Mr. Haggerstone I went by the name of Harry Howard my Mother was a Howard Doctor Oates Pray ask him whether he came into England when he went away from thence Mr. Haggerstone No I went and studied my Philosophy at Doway Oates I desire to ask him one question more Mr. Haggerstone Twenty if you please Doctor Oates I desire to know of him the occasion of Mr. Hilsley's coming away Mr. Haggerstone I do know it but truly I cannot tell whether it be fit for me to speak of it it was upon some unhandsome account but I must not blemish any Gentleman I think Oates My Lord I will ask him one question more whether ever he was admitted into the Society L. C. J. I will not ask him that question how often have I told you no such questions are to be ask'd must I make him liable to Penalty No ask questions that are fair and you shall have a fair answer Oates My Lord I have done then with him Mr. Sol. Gen. Then swear Mr. Robert Beeston which was done Mr. Att. Gen. Pray Sir were you at St. Omers in the year 77. and 78 Mr. Beeston Yes my Lord I was Mr. Att. Gen. Did you see Mr. Oates there then do you know him Mr. Beeston Yes I know him very well I did see him there Mr. Att. Gen. What months did you see him there Mr. Beeston He came there in December the beginning as I remember and he stayed there to June the latter end Mr. Att. Gen. What years was that in Mr. Beeston He came in 77. and went away in 78. Mr. Att. Gen. Did you observe him
to be there in April and May 78 Mr. Beeston The latter end of April and the beginning of May I did Mr. Att. Gen. Tell the Court particularly how you remember it Mr. Beeston My Lord I saw him the first of May at St Omers where he played at Nine-pins and I laid a wager upon the same side that he did and lost my money as well as he L. C. J. Do you remember any other time Mr. Beeston I saw him the second of May by the same token that I met him in the Colledge that day when our School exhibited an Action in the Hall and I met him after Supper now in this Action I had both acted and sung and they came and congratulated me for my singing Mr. Oates said if I had paid for learning to sing I had been basely cheated and then in the morning I was chosen Reader in the Sodality the 25th of April or thereabouts for a fortnight and Mr. Oates by his own submission was admitted to Read only with this condition that if ever he were wanting I was to Read again but this I say I never supplied the place therefâ—re I am sure he did continue there all the while and if he had been out I must have been called upon to Read L. C. J. Were you in the Colledge all the time he was there Mr. Beeston Yes my Lord I was L. C. J. Did you miss him at any time Mr. Beestone No I never miss'd him L. C. J. Are you sure he was not away all that time Mr. Beeston I am sure as much as a man can be certain of one that is of the same family with himself nay I am as sure of it as that I was there my self L. C. J. Can you speak any thing particularly of his Reading Mr. Beeston My Lord I was to have Read if he was absent but I was never called upon to Read and therefore I may well conclude he was there all the while L. C. J. He gives a material Evidence Mr. Sol. Gen. Was Mr. Oates such a remarkable man that he must be miss'd Mr. Beeston He was very particular both for Age and that he had a particular Table to Eat at Mr. Sol. Gen. Can you remember any thing else Mr. Beeston I remember too that when Mr. Bournaby came first he was often with him the second third and fourth of May I saw him there with Mr. Bournaby and I took particular notice of the friendship between them which I thought strange between persons that I supposed never saw one another before L. C. J. Have you any Questions to ask this man Mr. Oates Oates My Lord I desire to ask this Gentleman what Religion he is of Mr. Beeston I am a Roman Catholick Oates Pray my Lord be pleased to ask him when he went to St. Omers and when he came away thence and how long he was Resident there Mr. Beeston I know not exactly what year it was I came but I stayed the greatest part of seven years there Oates Pray my Lord ask him what Jesuits went from St. Omers to the Consult of April 78. Mr. Beeston There was some that past by I did not take much notice of them Oates Pray my Lord ask him who it was that informed him of that Consult Mr. Beeston I do not know who particularly I only heard of such a Rumour Mr. Att. Gen. Was it an extraordinary thing Mr. Beeston No It was but an ordinary thing as they used to have once in three years Oates You say you saw me every day there L. C. J. He says he believes he might because you were Reader in his stead and if you had been absent he must have been called upon to Read which he was not he says Oates Very well my Lord I desire you would ask him whether he does not remember such a thing as an eight days Exercise wherein those that perform the Exercise are separated from all company during that time Mr. Beeston Yes my Lord I do remember that he was once in that eight days Exercise and during the eight days I saw him walk in the Garden several times Oates Pray my Lord ask him if he were an Evidence at the Tryal of the Five Jesuits or Langhorn and whether he gave this Evidence long ago Mr. Beeston No I did not I was not there Oates Pray my Lord ask him what Rewards he is to have L. C. J. Are you to have any Reward for your Testimony Mr. Beeston Mr. Beeston No my Lord. Oates My Lord I desire to know of him how he comes to be pickt out among the rest of the Students there to come here and be an Evidence in this Cause Mr. Beeston My Lord I was subpoena'd by His Majesty if I knew any thing of this matter that I should come here and testifie my knowledge Oates Pray by what name did he go by at St. Omers Mr. Beeston By the name of Beeston as I do now Oates And is that his own name Mr. Beeston Yes my Lord. L. C. J. Pray go on Mr. Attorney Mr. Att. Gen. Swear Clement Smith which was done Mr. Sol. Gen. Pray Sir were you at St. Omers in the year 77 and 78 Mr. Smith Yes I was Mr. Sol. Gen. Do you remember Mr. Oates there at that time Mr. Smith Yes I was in the same Class with him Mr. Att. Gen. Pray when came he thither and how long did he stay there Mr. Smith He came a little before Christmas and stayed till June Mr. Att. Gen. Was he not absent at any time all that while Mr. Smith No he was not except one day Mr. Att. Gen. Do you remember Watton's business his going thither in January Mr. Smith He told me of it and that he design'd to ask the Rector leave to go L. C. J. Was he absent any other time till June Mr. Smith No my Lord for I will tell you I every day Dined with him eat a Collation with him in the Afternoon and Breakfast and Supp'd in the same Refectory during all that time except when he or I was in the Infirmary L. C. J. When ever he was absent he was in the Infirmary was he Mr. Smith Yes my Lord. L. C. J. Did not he miss his Breakfast at any time all that while Mr. Smith If he did we us'd to enquire after him Mr. Att. Gen. Pray when were you in the Infirmary Mr. Smith The 21th of April New Style I fell sick and I remained sick till May the 7th and was in the Infirmary and then he visited me almost daily or every other day in the Infirmary and on the 2d of May I saw him and one Mr. Bournaby together and on the day Mr. Poole departed which I take to be the fifth of May Mr. Oates came to me as soon as he was gone out of the House and told me of it and he did the same too that day that Mr. Hilsley went away which was the 24th of April New Style Mr. Att. Gen. Was
not he in the Infirmary himself Mr. Smith Yes during this time he came into the Infirmary and was sick there Mr. Att. Gen. When was that Mr. Smith A day or two after Mr. Hilsley went away and continued there two or three days and I remember it particularly by this circumstance that he proposed a question to the Physician about himself in Latine and spoke a Sollecism which was this he said Si placet Dominatio vestra Oates Who did say so L. C. J. You did he says speak that false Latine to the Doctor Oates That 's false Latine indeed L. C. J. We know that but it seems it was your Latine Mr. Att. Gen. When came he away from St. Omers Mr. Smith About the 20th of June something after the 20th of June as I remember L. C. J. Are you sure he was not out of the Colledge so long as to make a Journey to London and back again Mr. Smith No I am sure he could not without being miss'd and going to School with him and eating Dinner and Supper with him constantly alwaies at the same place I must needs know if he had gone Oates When went I away from St. Omers does he say Mr. Smith After the 20th of June 78. L. C. J. He is your old Acquaintance and Schoolfellow Mr. Oates you visited him when he was sick Oates What Religion is this Gentleman of my Lord I would know Mr. Smith I am a Roman Catholick Oates I desire your Lordship to ask him how long he liv'd at St. Omers Mr. Smith Above six years Oates Pray ask him when he came away Mr. Smith A little after Dr. Oates came away Oates Did he come directly for England Mr. Smith No I did not Oates Whither did he go then Mr. Smith I went about a little Oates Where my Lord Mr. Smith I went about to take some Turns in the Low-Countrys I went to Watton and up and down Oates He is a Jesuit my Lord and that the World knows and must know L. C. J. I know nothing of it I do assure you Oates Pray my Lord be pleased to ask him whether he did not hear of a Consult of Jesuits in April 78. and what Jesuits went from St. Omers to it Mr. Smith I heard it as a Rumour in the Colledge that there was to be a Congregation at that time but I know not where particularly it was to be kept but I know that then there pass'd by St. Omers two Fathers Mr. Marsh and Mr. Williams Oates What were they Mr. Smith Jesuits L. C. J. He told you they were Fathers Mr. Att. Gen. Pray was it an extraordinary or an ordinary Meeting that Mr. Smith They us'd to say in the Colledge that it was an ordinary thing to have such a Congregation every three years Mr. Sol. Gen. Pray swear Mr. Edward Price which was done Mr. Att. Gen. Pray Mr. Price will you give my Lord and the Gentlemen of the Jury an account whether you were at St. Omers in the year 77 and 78. Mr. Price I was there both these years Mr. Att. Gen. Do you remember Mr. Oates there Mr. Price Yes my Lord I do Mr. Att. Gen. When did he come and when did he go away Mr. Price He came there about December 77. and he continued there till June 78. Mr. Att. Gen. Was he absent from St. Omers at any time all that while Mr. Price Never that I know of but one night at Watton when he came back the following day and that was in January Mr. Att. Gen. Do you remember particularly that he was there in April and May 78 Mr. Price I remember Mr. Hilsley according to the forreign Style left St. Omers upon the 24th of April 78. I was told the following day that Mr. Oates went into the Infirmary which was Monday the 25th and stayed there a day or two and upon Wednesday the 27th I saw him going to Mass then upon the Sunday following which was the first of May New Style came Mr. Bournaby to St. Omers and I saw him in Oates's company that day and I saw him on Monday again the second of May in his company I saw him the third of May at the Table which I particularly remember because it was the Feast of the Invention of the Holy Cross the fourth of May I have no Circumstance to remember him by but the fifth of May I saw him take his leave of Mr. Poole and I likewise saw him the 10th or 11th of May at another of our Actions wherein Mr. Watson had a quarrel with him and beat him I should have miss'd him above any other man because he was so noted a man Mr. Att. Gen. What was he noted for for any thing else but his distinct place in the Refectory Mr. Price Yes he was very absurd and alwaies quarrelling with the Students there L. C. J. Do you remember him Read in the Sodality Mr. Price I was not of that Bench that he was of Oates My Lord I desire to know what this Gentlemans Religion is L. C. J. What Religion are you of Sir Mr. Price If your Lordship please to know I am a Roman Catholick Oates My Lord I desire to ask him when he went first to St. Omers and when he came away Mr. Price I was six years at St. Omers I was there a twelve month before Mr. Oates came thither and came from thence about three years ago Oates Did you come directly to England when you came away Mr. Price My Lord I went to Leige to study Philosophy and I live now with my Father at home Oates My Lord I desire to ask him whether he did not hear of a Consult to be held in April 78. Mr. Price I did hear there was a Congregation which was their usual Triennial meeting and particularly I remember about that time there came Mr. Williams and Mr. Marsh and it was reported that they were going to the Congregation Oates I desire to ask him if he was not a Witness at the Tryal of the five Jesuits or at the Tryal of Langhorne Mr. Price No I was not Oates Pray what name did he go by at St. Omers Mr. Price By my own name which is Edward Price Mr. Sol. Gen. Then swear the next that is Mr. James Doddington Mr. Att. Gen. Pray Sir were you at St. Omers in the year 77 and 78 Mr. Doddington Yes Sir I was Mr. Att. Gen. Did you know that Gentleman Mr. Oates there Mr. Doddington I know him very well Mr. Att. Gen. What time did he come to St. Omers and how long did he stay there Mr. Doddington He came about Christmas and stayed about the latter end of June Mr. Att. Gen. How do you remember he stayed there so long what Circumstances have you to make you remember it Mr. Doddington In general his Conversation and Canting Stories after Dinner and Supper and times of Recreation made him so remarkable that no body could miss him all the time he was there Mr. Att.
Gen. Did you observe him to be in the Hall or at the Exercises Mr. Doddington Yes I saw him several times Mr. Sol. Gen. Do you remember the time Mr. Hilsley went away Mr. Doddington Yes it was a little after Easter and I do remember that two or three days after I went into the Infirmary and saw Mr. Oates there and had discourses with him Mr. Att. Gen. Do you remember Mr. Bournaby's coming to St. Omers and when was it Mr. Doddington Yes the first of May Mr. Bournaby came to St. Omers and the next day I saw Oates with him and for ten or twelve daies successively they were in one anothers company and then of a sudden the Correspondence broke off but I know not upon what account L. C. J. Was he Reader there as you remember Mr. Doddington I do remember he did Read in the Sodality L. C. J. When was that Mr. Doddington I remember he Read at Shrovetide Oates Did you hear me Read there Mr. Doddington Yes that I did Sir Oates Were you of the Sodality Mr. Doddington Yes I was Sir Mr. Att. Gen. Do you remember the time when he came away from St. Omers Mr. Doddington It was about Midsummer my Lord. Mr. Att. Gen. Were you out of the Colledge your self at any time when he was there Mr. Doddington No I was not L C. J. Come I will ask you a plain Question Was he so long at any time out of the Colledge as to come to London and stay here two or three daies and come back again Mr. Doddington My Lord he was so Remarkable by his Stories and Ridiculous Actions and falling out with every one of the Colledge that if he had been absent we must needs have missed him L. C. J. Did you miss him at any time Mr. Doddington My Lord I never miss'd him but one day L. C. J. When was that Mr. Doddington They said he was gone to Watton L. C. J. What time was that Mr. Doddington In January about six weeks after he came first Oates Pray my Lord ask him what Religion he is of Mr. Doddington I am a Roman Catholick Oats And a Scholar of St. Omers L. C. J. Make your Remarks by and by Oates Pray my Lord ask him what Name he went by at St. Omers Mr. Doddington By the Name of Hollis my Lord. Oates Pray my Lord ask him how long he was Resident there Mr. Doddington Near upon five years Oates Pray my Lord ask him the occasion of his coming over at first Mr. Doddington I had business in England and I had a mind to see my Friends Oates Pray my Lord ask him whether he did not pretend at the five Jesuits Tryal that he came over upon the King's Proclamation to call home those that were in the Seminaries L. C. J. Were you at the Tryal of the five Jesuits Mr. Doddington Yes I was but if I came over upon the King's Proclamation what hurt is there in that L. C. J. None at all as I know of Oates Pray my Lord ask him whether he did return again to St. Omers or no. Mr. Doddington My Lord I pass'd by St. Omers once but I never stay'd a day in the Colledge since Oates Pray my Lord be pleased to ask him whether he ever heard of a Consult of the Jesuits in April 78. Mr. Doddington I did hear of a Congregation Oates Call it a Consult or a Congregation it is all one L. C. J. He says he did hear of it Oats Ask him by whom he did hear of it Mr. Doddington I saw the Provincial when he came back from England Oates Who was that Provincial what was his Name Mr. Doddington Mr. Whitebread Oates Was not Mr. Whitebread a Resident sometimes at St. Omers Mr. Doddington Yes a while he was Oates Pray was not that House under his Government Mr. Doddington My Lord I can give no account of that but it is generally under the Government of the Rector of St. Omers Mr. Hanseys Pray Sir give me leave to ask you one Question Mr. Oates speaks of Mr. Whitebread Pray how did Mr. Whitebread use Oates when he came back from England Mr. Doddington I heard say he did check him very severely for his many miscarriages L. C. J. He heard it he says but he does not know it of his own knowledge that is no Evidence Mr. Sol. Gen. Pray swear Mr. William Gerrard which was done Mr. Att. Gen. Were you at St. Omers Mr. Gerrard in the years 77. and 78 Mr. Gerrard Yes I was Mr. Att. Gen. Did you know Mr. Oates there Mr. Gerrard Where is he Sir Mr. Att. Gen. There he is in that corner do you know him Mr. Gerrard Yes Mr. Att. Gen. When came he to St. Omers Mr. Gerrard He came to St. Omers in the year of our Lord 77. and he went away in June 78. Mr. Att. Gen. Was he there all the time Mr. Gerrard I never remembred to have miss'd him but only once when he went to Watton for a night Mr. Att. Gen. By what Tokens do you remember him at any time there in April or May Mr. Gerrard The second of May we had a Play and he was there then and I remember the 26th of May he was confirmed and so was I it being St. Augustin's day and in the Refectory he had a Table by himself and I used alwaies at meal-times to pass by that Table and make a Bow to the Fathers above before I sate down at Table and I do not remember that ever he was absent and if he had I should surely have miss'd him L. C. J. When was St. Augustin's day that you say you and he were confirm'd Mr. Gerrard It was the 26th of May. Mr. Att. Gen. Do you remember him in April there Mr. Gerrard I cannot tell any particular circumstance in April but I do not remember to have miss'd him at all in April Mr. Sol. Gen. But you saw him there the second of May you say Mr. Gerrard Yes I did so and the 26th of May. Oates The 26th of May Old Style I was there my Lord. L. C. J. Ay but he says the 26th of May New Style Oates I was not there then my Lord. L. C. J. He swears you were Mr. Sol. Gen. Pray between the second and 27th of May New Style was he absent from St. Omers at any time Mr. Gerrard I never remember to have miss'd him at all in that time Mr. Att. Gen. Do you remember Mr. Pool's and Mr. Hilsley's going away Mr. Gerrard I do remember Mr. Hilsley's and Mr. Pool's going away but I cannot speak particularly and exactly what time that was L. C. J. Is it usual to have Scholars go away without being miss'd Mr. Gerrard No my Lord and he had a particular place by himself Oates Pray ask him my Lord how he came to know that I went away in June Mr. Gerrard We miss'd him in his place then and 't was discoursed of all over the Town that when the Provincial
came he was to be dismiss'd Oates I desire to know what Religion this Gentleman is of Mr. Gerrard My Lord I am a Roman Catholick Oates Pray my Lord ask him what Name he went by at St. Omers Mr. Gerrard By the Name of William Clovell Oates Pray my Lord ask him when he went to St. Omers and how long he was Resident there Mr. Gerrard I came there about two years before he came and was there about two years after he went away Oats Pray my Lord ask him whether he came directly for England when he left St. Omers Mr. Gerrard No my Lord I was four years in Low Germany and France and came into England the last year Oates Pray Sir were you a Witness at the five Jesuits Tryal or at Langhorns Tryal Mr. Gerrard No I was not I came but last year to England I tell you Oates Pray my Lord ask this Gentleman whether he did not know or hear of a Consult of Jesuits that was to be in April 78. and from whom he heard it Mr. Gerrard My Lord I know it is the Custom of the Fathers of that Order to have a Congregation once in three years about the Affairs of their Society but then no Person is admitted to be one of that Congregation but them that have been eighteen years Jesuits and he not having been so much as a Novice I know not how if he had been here he could have been present at it L. C. J. He says that there us'd to be a Triennial Congregation for the Business of the Society but you could not be present at it because you had not been eighteen years a Jesuit Mr. Gerrard An. decimo octavo Currente is the word of the Rule Oates Pray my Lord ask him this Question how he knows that to be the Rule Mr. Gerrard You or any man may Read them in their Books L. C. J. It seems he has Read them and he says you must pass through eighteen years before you be admitted of the Congregation and he believes you were not there for you were not capable of so much as a Noviceship Oates I desire your Lordship to ask him whether or no he heard me Read in the Sodality Mr. Gerrard Yes I did Oates Were you of the Sodality Mr. Gerrard Yes I was Oates Pray my Lord ask him what Oaths are there taken before they be admitted into the Sodality L. C. J. No by no means I will not do it Oates Why my Lord may not I ask it to shew what kind of men these are L. C. J. No indeed it is but the same Question again that I told you before is not to be asked for it may make him liable to a Penalty if you come to be a Witness no man should ask you a Question that might make you obnoxious to a Penalty no more must you ask them any such Questions Oates I have done with him my Lord. Mr. Sol. Gen. Where is my Lord Gerrard of Bromeley Lord Gerrard Here I am Sir Mr. Att. Gen. Pray my Lord do you remember Mr. Oates at St. Omers in the year 77. and 78 Lord Gerrard He was disguised in another Habit and another colour'd Perriwig the Hair was blacker than that he has on now but I remember his Face very well and know him again by the Tone of his Voice which was very remarkable but I never remember that he was absent from St. Omers after he came thither I remember his coming exactly which was about Christmas nor did I ever hear that he was absent till June 78. New Style when he went away Mr. Sol. Gen. Do you remember my Lord when Mr. Bournaby came Lord Gerrard I do remember Mr. Bournaby's coming but what time it was I cannot exactly tell L. C. J. Is my Lord Gerrard sworn Mr. Sol. Gen. I think so Lord Gerrard No my Lord I am not sworn L. C. J. You must be sworn my Lord which was done now if you be pleased to ask my Lord any Questions do Mr. Att. Gen. My Lord we desire to know of my Lord Gerrard of Bromeley whether he knew Mr. Oates at St. Omers Lord Gerrard My Lord I remember he came in 77. as I take it it was the beginning of December and never heard he was absent or miss'd till June 78. I remember particularly upon the 25th of March there was a new Lector to be Reader of the Sodality and Mr. Oates desiring it he was appointed to Read I was there my self and I never miss'd him I heard him Read that I do remember several Sundays and Holidays and never knew him absent any one however for five or six weeks he was constant at Reading and I can the better remember it because he had a particular Cant in his Tone which all men may know which ever conversed with him Mr. Sol. Gen. If Oates please to ask my Lord Gerrard any Questions he may Lord Gerrard Pray my Lord let me speak a word or two more L. C. J. Ay my Lord pray go on Lord Gerrard I remember I heard Mr. Oates was at the Confirmation which was upon St. Austins day there was a Confirmation by a Catholick Bishop about the 26 of May New Style I Remember I heard Mr. Oates was there and the Bishop did particularly note him as a person of elder years than the rest of the Students L. C. J. Do you know this my Lord of your own knowledge Lord Gerrard I do my Lord. L. C. J. Because you say you heard it Lord Gerrard My Lord further I remember this when the News of the Plot being discovered by Oates came to St. Omers where he went by the name of Sampson Lucy and sometimes Titus Ambrosius it was wondered by all the Scholars that knew him there how he came to be so impudent to pretend that he was at such a Consult the 24th of April 78. when all the Colledge saw him every day in April and May at St. Omers as much as a man can be seen in a Family and was never known to be absent so much as one day besides my Lord 't is a thing as generally noted as a thing can be that no Scholar goes away from or comes to the Colledge of St. Omers but it is particularly known to the whole house It is the Common News and Discourse as much as any new occurrences is here about the Town Mr. Sol. Gen. If Oates be pleased to ask him any questions he may Oates My Lord I desire this Noble Lord may be ask'd a question or two I do not Remember his Lordship there Lord Gerrard I do very well remember the man by particular Remarques Oates Yes my Lord you have occasion to remember me and so have your whole Party Pray my Lord let my Lord Gerrard be ask'd what name his Lordship went by at St. Omers Lord Gerrard Mr. Oates I am not difficult in telling the name I went by there It was Clovel Oates Pray my Lord I desire to know what Religion his
Lordship is of Lord Gerrard Neither am I asham'd to own my Religion Mr. Oates I am a Catholick Oates Pray my Lord If you please because this Noble Lord pretends he heard me Read I desire to know of him whether he was of the Sodality Lord Gerrard I remember you particularly by your voice and that is one thing that particularly brings you to my Remembrance now Oates Pray ask this Noble Lord if he was a witness at the Jesuites Tryal Lord. Gerrard No I was never a witness in my Life before By the oath that I have taken L. C. J. 'T is very well my Lord. Oates Pray my Lord ask this Nobleman whether he did not know of a Consult in April 78. and from whom he knew it Lord Gerrard No I know of none nor heard of any but by Rumour after that you pretended to discover such a thing Oates Did his Lordship see me every day does he say Lord Gerrard I cannot say every day but I saw him at the Refectory generally and I remember it particularly because he sat at a Table by himself I believe he could not be absent without being miss'd because we knew every person that came in and went out Mr. Sol. Gen. Then Swear Mr. Samuel Morgan which was done Mr. Att. Gen. Mr. Morgan were you at St. Omers in 77 and 78 Mr. Morgan I was my Lord. Mr. Att. Gen. Did you observe Mr. Oates to be there at that time Mr. Morgan Yes I did Mr. Att. Gen. Pray give an account when he came and when he went away Mr. Morgan He came 14 or 15 daies before Christmas as I Remember and went away in June Mr. Att. Gen. What Christmas do you mean Mr. Morgan Mr. Morgan Christmas 77. Mr. Att. Gen. And when did he go away Mr. Morgan In June 78. he went away Mr. Att. Gen. Was he absent any time during that space Mr. Morgan My Lord I know not that he was ever absent above one night in all that time Mr. Att. Gen. What time was that one night Mr. Morgan Truly my Lord I cannot tell what month it was very exactly Mr. Att. Gen. Whither was he gone that night Mr. Morgan He went to Watton three miles off from St. Omers Mr. Att. Gen. Do you remember the time when Mr. Hilsley came away and when Mr. Bournaby came to St. Omers Mr. Morgan Yes I do my Lord very well Mr. Sol. Gen. Was Mr. Oates there when Hilsley went away Mr. Morgan He was there then Mr. Sol. Gen. Was he there when Mr. Bournaby came Mr. Morgan He was there when Mr. Bournaby came thither Mr. Sol. Gen. Was he there when Mr. Poole came away Mr. Morgan Yes my Lord he was so Mr. Sol. Gen. I will ask you this short question do you believe in your Conscience that he was absent any particular time all that while Mr. Morgan No my Lord I have no reason to believe so Oates Pray my Lord ask him what Religion he is of Mr. Morgan I am of the Church of England Oates When were you reconciled to the Church of England Mr. Morgan Five years since Oates I desire to know of him what induc'd him to be reconciled to the Church of England L. C. J. That is not a pertinent question nor fit to be asked Is he to give an account of his faith here Mr. Justice Withens It seems Mr. Oates is angry when the witnesses are Papists and when they are Protestants too Oates When was it that I came to St Omers do you say Mr. Morgan You came thither in December 77. L. C. J. So he told you before why do you repeat things over and over again Oates When was it I went away from thence say you Mr. Morgan In June 78. Mr. Sol. Gen. Do you remember 24th of April Old Style that year Mr. Morgan Yes my Lord I do remember it very well Mr. Sol. Gen. Do you remember him to be at St. Omers that day Mr. Morgan Yes I do by this circumstance Mr. Sol. Gen. Ay pray tell my Lord and the Jury that circumstance how you come to remember it Mr. Morgan We had the Tryal of Ireland brought over to us soon after it was Printed and there we found mention'd that Mr. Oates had deposed that the 24th of April 78. there was a Consult of the Jesuits and they met at the White Horse Tavern where they resolved to kill the King and he carried that Resolution from Chamber to Chamber and he did nominate the day and having it then fresh in my memory though he swore that he was the 24th of April Old Style in London at that Consult yet I found him to be at St. Omers by a very particular circumstance My Lord I was playing at Ball that day and struck it over into a Court into which I could not get over my self but I saw Mr. Oates then walking in the Court and I came and borrowed his Key and so went in and there passed between us words of friendship L. C. J. When was this do you say Mr. Morgan The 24th of April 78. Old Style Oates I desire to let his Orders be seen L. C. J. No he shall not be put to shew any such thing Oates He is a Minister of the Church of England my Lord. L. C. J. Sir we tell you we will not do it what ado is here with your impertinent Questions have not I told you you shall not ensnare the Witnesses Oates He was a going to pull out his Orders himself Mr. Att. Gen. My Lord Mr. Oates may see them if he will he is a Benefic'd Minister of the Church of England L. C. J. Does he mean those Orders Mr. Att. Gen. Yes he does and here they are L. C. J. Let him see them which was done Oates My Lord I desire to know of this Gentleman what Name he went by at St. Omers Mr. Morgan By the name of Morgan Mr. Sol. Gen. Swear Mr. Arundel which was done Mr. Att. Gen. Pray Sir will you give an account in short whether you were at St. Omers in 77. and 78. and the time when Oates came thither and when he went away Mr. Arundel I was there when Dr. Oates came and when he went away Mr. Att. Gen. When was that Mr. Arundel Sir I cannot be positive to the time exactly but I think it was about January 77. that he came there and he went away about June 78. I cannot be positive to the time exactly L. C. J. He does not particularly remember the time but he thinks it was about January 77. he came thither Mr. Arundel I beg your Lordship pardon he came there about December Mr. Att. Gen. Do you remember any particular circumstances that you saw him there at any particular time Mr. Arundel Upon St. Augustines day I saw him Confirm'd Mr. Sol. Gen. What day is that Mr. Arundel The 26th of May according to the Forreign Account L. C. J. Did you know him there then Mr. Arundel Yes my Lord I say I
saw him Confirm'd Mr. Sol. Gen. Do you remember Mr. Hilsley's going away Mr. Arundel I do not remember the time particularly but I do remember Mr. Oates was actually there then Mr. Sol. Gen. Do you remember when Mr. Bournaby came to St. Omers Mr. Arundel No I do not remember the time but he was there then too Mr. Sol. Gen. Do you remember when Mr. Poole went away Mr. Arundel No I cannot tell what day it was but he was there at the time of his going away upon my Oath Mr. Sol. Gen. Can you tell any other particular time Mr. Arundel The 11th of May New Style there was an Action exhibited in the Colledge L. C. J. Was Oates there then Mr. Arundel To the best of my remembrance he was L. C. J. He does not affirm any particular but only speaks in general Oates Are you a Protestant too Sir Mr. Arundel No Doctor I am not Oates Pray my Lord I desire to know what Religion he is of Mr. Arundel I am a Papist my Lord. Oates Pray ask him by what Name he went at St. Omers Mr. Arundel I believe you know that as well as I Doctor Oates L. C. J. You must answer his Question Mr. Arundel I went by the Name of Spencer my Lord. Oates I do remember him my Lord to have been there Mr. Arundel Sir your humble Servant Oates It is almost seven years ago my Lord and I may not so well remember them as they do me but I desire to know when he went to St. Omers first and how long he was there Mr. Arundel I was there seven years Oates Pray my Lord ask him whether he was of the Sodality Mr. Arundel Yes my Lord I was L. C. J. Was he Reader of the Sodality Mr. Arundel Yes my Lord in my time he was Reader Oates Then my Lord I desire to ask him whether ever he heard of a Consult of the Jesuits that was to be held in England in April 78. and from whom he heard it Mr. Arundel Yes my Lord I did hear in the Colledge of a Congregation Mr. Sol. Gen. Was that an extraordinary one or of course Mr. Arundel It was only of course as they told us once in three years they have one Oates Pray my Lord be pleased to ask this Gentleman what Studies he followed at St. Omers L. C. J He was of the Sodality he says Mr. Arundel My Lord I studied to the end of Rhetorick Oates My Lord I desire to know whether when he came from St. Omers he did come directly for England Mr. Arundel No I went from thence to Paris my Lord. Mr. Sol. Gen. Swear Mr Christopher Turbervile which was done Mr. Att. Gen. Pray Mr. Turbervile will you acquaint my Lord and the Jury whether you were with Mr. Oates at St. Omers and when Mr. Turbervile Yes my Lord he went by the Name of Sampson Lucy there and there I saw him and there I was with him all the time I was there before him and I remained there after he went away Mr. Att. Gen. What time did he come to St. Omers I pray you Mr. Turbervile Before Christmas L. C. J. In what year Mr. Turbervile In the year 77. Mr. Att. Gen What time was it he went away Mr. Turbervile In June 78. L. C. J. Were you there all that while at St. Omers Mr. Turbervile Yes I was L. C. J. And to the best of your apprehension you think he was there all that while Mr Turbervile Yes I do so my Lord Mr. Sol. Gen. Can you speak of any particular daies you can remember Mr. Turbervile Yes I do remember him upon the 4th 5th and 6th of May for two or three daies together for my Lord I do remember this circumstance Mr. Poole about that time went away and that very day Mr. Poole went from the Colledge I changed my Lodging and went into his Lodging and that day I saw Doctor Oates in the Chamber and by the Chamber door Mr. Att. Gen. Did he continue in the Colledge from the time he came about Christmas to the time he went away in June Mr Turbervile Yes he did all the while except it were one night in January when he went to Watton L. C. J What time in June did he go away Mr. Turbervile I am not positive but I am morally sure he went away the 23th of June as near as I can remember Oates I was there in June that is very well known L. C. J. What do you remember of his Reading in the Colledge Mr. Turbervile I do remember he was Reader there on Sundays and Holidays for a great while I cannot swear upon what Sunday he began but he left off the Sunday before he went away L. C. J. As near as you can remember when did he begin to Read Mr. Turbervile It was the beginning of April or latter end of March I cannot justly swear which it was Mr. Molloy Did he Read on Holidays as well as Sundays Mr. Turbervile Yes he did Oates I must ask this Gentleman one Question if your Lordship please and that is this what Name he went by at St. Omers Mr. Turbervile I went there by the name of Farmer Oates Pray you my Lord ask him what Religion he is of Mr. Turbervile It is a hard Question to answer that Oates Nay my Lord I desire to know what is his Religion Mr. Turbervile I am my Lord a Roman Catholick Oates Ask him when he went to St Omers first and how long he stayed there Mr. Turbervile I was there seven years very near Oates I desire to know whether he did come away directly to England when he came from St. Omers Mr. Turbervile No my Lord I went into Italy Oates Pray you my Lord I desire to know whether he did go to Rome L. C. J. What if he did what then that is not at all to the purpose he went into Italy Oates Pray my Lord be pleased to ask him this Question further was he a Witness on the behalf of the five Jesuits or of Langhorne at their Tryals Mr. Turbervile No my Lord I was not Oates Pray my Lord be pleased to ask him then what Reward he has been promised or is to have for giving this Evidence Mr. Turbervile None at all my Lord. Oates Pray my Lord ask him whether or no he heard of any Consult of the Jesuits in April 78 and from whom Mr. Turbervile There was a Congregation as I heard but I do not remember that any of the Fathers went from the Colledge to it several came by there and lodged there as they went and as they came back Oates Pray my Lord ask him how he came here to be a Witness in this Cause Mr. Turbervile I was subpoena'd Oates Who servâ—d the Subpoena upon him Mr. Turbervile The Managers it was sent to me by the King's Councel I suppose a man brought it to me L. C. J. 'T is no matter who brought it you you were subpoena'd that 's enough Mr.
I must come to be called to an account for Perjury in my Testimony of that part of the Popish Plot with which the King and Kingdom four successive Parliaments all the Judges of the Land and three Juries were so well satisfied I shall therefore offer to your Lordship and the Juries consideration the unanimous Votes of three Houses of Commons I shall offer the Proceedings of the House of Lords that is the highest Judicature in the Kingdom I shall prove what I have open'd by the Testimony of several Noblemen that are here who will testifie this for me My Lord I shall prove that several attempts have been made to baffle this Testimony as that of the Murther of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey who took my Depositions the Contrivance of Paine Farewell and Thompson made in the year 81 or 82 I forget which I shall then produce Evidence that I was actually here in Town at the time in question and then upon the whole I shall submit it to your Lordship and the Jury But to prepare your Lordship and the Jury the better for my Evidence I would again urge the strangeness of this Prosecution and the hardship that is put upon me to be tryed for Perjury in an Evidence given six years ago and formerly very industriously though not succesfully endeavoured to be falsified by sixteen St. Omers Youths that were produced and examined before all the Judges in the Kingdom and that not only once at Whitebread's Trial but a second time at Langhorn's Trial in neither of which would the Jury believe them because of their Religion and Education and the persons under whom they were educated who were men of known Artifice Then my Lord I would this argue If that time my Evidence were true it must be true still for Truth is always the same and if it were then true and I can prove it to be true 't will be thought a hard thing without all doubt that this should be put upon me Then my Lord I would fain know from my Prosecutors Why this Indictment of Perjury has been deferred so long Why these Witnesses that come now to testifie this matter and could then have been brought did not come before to justifie at the Trials of these persons what they now say which might have sav'd their Lives if true and had been credited Then I shall offer to your Lordship what I desire You and the Jury would please to observe That though the King's Councel are now against me yet they are also against themselves for they were of Councel for the King in those Cases particularly Mr. Sollicitor at Langhorn's Trial Sir Robert Sawyer at Sir George Wakeman's Trial They were of Councel before for the truth of my Testimony they are now against it I only mention that and pass it over But this is not the first attempt that has been made to discredit the Testimony of the Popish Plot as I told you before Now can it be supposed that the love and desire of publick Justice can be the cause of this attempt to falsifie my Evidence after so many Trials in which it has been credited and confirmed Can any thing my Lord more plainly tend to destroy and subvert the methods of Justice to frighten all Witnesses from henceforth from ever appearing to discover any Conspiracies and does it not tend to expose and vilifie the known Understanding and Justice of the late King of ever Blessed Memory to arraign the Wisdom of His Privy-Council His Great and Noble Peers His Loyal Commons in three successive Parliaments His Twelve Judges and all those several Juries that were upon those Trials Had not those Juries sense had they not honesty had they no consciences And the Judges before whom those Conspirators were try'd were they men of no Justice nor Honour nor Integrity nor Conscience nor Understanding Shall those Juries be said to have drawn the innocent Blood of these men upon their own Heads and the Nation as if I were perjur'd it must be innocent Blood that was shed upon it L. C. J. No no that goes a great deal too far Mr. Oates The Jury have no share nor the Judges neither in that Blood which was shed by your Oath Mr. Justice Withens No That is your own most certainly and not theirs Oates But this I say makes it most plain The Evidence was then true and I hope I shall make it as evidently plain 't is as true now and I do not question but upon the Evidence I shall now give both Positive and Collateral the Jury will believe me and acquit me of this foul Accusation Pray my Lord be pleased to consider that when the Jury brought in Ireland guilty of the High-Treason of which he was accused and convicted him Pickering and Grove says my Lord Chief Justice Scroggs that then was to them Gentlemen you have done like very good Subjects and very good Christians that is like very good Protestants and now much good may do them with their Thirty Thousand Masses as I shall prove he did say Then I insist in the second place That Whitebread's Conviction does reinforce the Conviction of Ireland because of the attempt by the St. Omers Witnesses to have overthrown my Evidence But since I am attaqu'd again in the same kind by the violence of the Popish Interest and by the malice of my Popish Adversaries I am contented to stand the Test with all my heart And then to conclude all I shall shew the Court That 't is in vain for the Popish Party to expect and think to wipe their mouths with Solomon's Whore and say they have done no wickedness No I question not but thousands of Protestants in this Kingdom are fully satisfied and convinced of the Truth of the Popish Plot all and every part of it Now my Lord if you please to give me leave to proceed on in my Evidence I shall beg that these Records of Conviction may be read which are my first Proof of the Consult and I shall then bring Witnesses viva voce and shall make it appear that what I did swear at those Trials was true L. C. J. Not to intetrupt you in your Defence or the method you will take for it I would put you upon that which is proper for you to apply your self to because the question now is not Whether there was a Consult or Congregation of the Jesuits here upon the 24th of April 78 but the question that toucheth you is Whether you were present at any such Consult here in London the 24th of April 78 These Gentlemen some of them do say there was a Consult and others that they heard of it and believe there was such an one because it was usual to have a Triennal Congregation for some particular purposes But the question is Whether you have sufficient proof to prove your self to be here on the 24th of April 78 at which time it is agreed of all hands there was a Consult Oates But will your
Lordship be pleased to take notice of the drift of the Evidence how they are consistent one with another These Gentlemen that have now been sworn to prove that I was not at this Consult do attempt to prove that I was at St. Omers Now to answer this I shall not go about to prove that I was not then at St. Omers but that I was actually then and about that time here in London and then all that proof that Mr. Attorney-General has brought must be laid aside L. C. J. You say well prove that Oates Now my Lord to introduce and prepare the Jury for this it will be necessary I humbly conceive to read the Records of the Conviction of Whitebread and Ireland L. C. J. Well go your own way We are not to direct you I only tell you where the question lies Oates Sir Samuel Astrey pray be pleased to read them in English that the Jury may understand them First read Ireland's Record which was done Oates Now read Whitebread's Record Read but the Attainder I will not trouble the Court with the whole Record Cl. of the Crown Thomas White alias Whitebread William Harcourt alias Harrison John Fenwick John Gaven and Anthony Turner were found guilty of High-Treason and attainted and Execution awarded against them upon that Attainder Oates Does not the Record say The Jurors say upon their Oaths they are guilty L. C. J. Yes I 'll warrant you Cl. of the Crown It is Dicunt super sacramentum suum Oates Very well These my Lord I do produce as my first Evidence to prove that there was a Trayterous Consult held upon the 24th of April 78 at the White-horse-Tavern in the Strand it having been believed and affirmed by two Verdicts Now give me leave to offer but this to the Court That at the Trial of Mr. Ireland I gave so full and ample a Testimony against Whitebread and Fenwick accompanied with all the circumstances of Time and Place that my Lord Chief Justice Scroggs said The Evidence might be sufficient to have satisfied a private conscience though it was not a legal Proof then to convict him there being but one Witness against them And for this I call Mr. Robert Blayney Mr. Att. Gen. Pray swear Mr. Blayney which was done L. C. J. What do you ask Mr. Blayney Oates Mr. Blayney have you your Notes of Ireland's Trial here Mr. Blayney Yes Sir I have Oates Pray will you look into what my Lord Chief Justice Scroggs said when he discharged the Jury of Whitebread and Fenwick Mr. Blayney Whereabouts is it Sir in the Printed Trial Oates It is page 55. Mr. Blayney I have found the place what is it you would ask me about it Oates Whether my Lord Chief Justice Scroggs did not use these words to the Jury I do acknowledge that Mr. Oates has given a very full and ample Testimony accompanied with all the circumstances of Time and Place against them all That may go far with you all things considered to believe there is a Plot Yet I do not think they have proved it against Whitebread and Fenwick by Two Witnesses though the Testimony be so full as to satisfie a private conscience yet we must go according to Law too It will be convenient from what is already proved to have them stay till more proof come in 'T is a great Evidence that is against them but it not being sufficient in point of Law We discharge you of them It is not a legal Proof to convict them by whatsoever it may be to satisfie your consciences Mr. Blayney I have look'd upon my Notes and I cannot find exactly those words L. C. J. He says he cannot find that passage as it is there Mr. Blayney There is something to that purpose my Lord. Oates Pray Sir will you look into your Notes in the very same place what my Lord Chief Baron said You must speaking to the Jayler understand they are no way acquitted the Evidence is so full against them by Mr. Oates 's Testimony that there is no reason to acquit them it is as flat as by one Witness can be Mr. Blayney There is such a passage I find in my Notes L. C. J. He says there is such a passage Oates Then I desire Mr. Blayney would look into his Notes what my Lord Chief Justice Scroggs said in his summing up the Evidence against Ireland He mentions the Evidence of Sir Dennis Ashburnham who was produced to discredit me and then he adds When the matter is so accompanied with so many other circumstances which are material things and cannot be evaded or deny'd it is almost impossible for any man either to make such a story or not to believe it when it is told It is Ireland's Trial page 72. Mr. Blayney My Lord I do find such a passage in my Notes L. C. J. He says there is such a passage in his Notes Oates Then I would ask Mr. Blaney another question at the bringing in the Verdict of the Jury against Ireland Pickering and Grove my Lord Chief Justice Scroggs that then was had this expression You have done Gentlemen like very good Subjects and very good Christians that is to say like very good Protestants and now much good may their 30000 Masses do them Blayney Yes my Lord there is in my Notes such an expression of my L. C. J. Scroggs Oates Pray you Mr. Blayney have you Whitebread's Trial the Trial of the Five Jesuits I mean Mr. Blayney My Lord when I received a Subpoena from Mr. Oates to be here this day and to bring my Notes of Ireland Whitebread and Langhorns Trials I did as I did before upon another occasion make a search for all my Notes but could not find any but those of the Trial of Ireland and Langhorn and those I have brought here but have not Whitebread's L. C. J. He says he has not the Notes of Whitebread's Trial he cannot find them Oates Then I must desire my Lord that the Printed Trials may be read L. C. J. No they are no Evidence If you can prove what was said at any of them you may by Witnesses but not by the Printed Books Oates Then will your Lordship be pleased to give me leave to mention what was said by your Lordship at that time when you were Recorder of London about your satisfaction with the Evidence L. C. J. Ay with all my heart and whatever I said I will own if I can remember it Oates Will your Lordship be pleased to be sworn then L. C. J. No there will be no need for that I will acknowledge any thing I said then Oates Then if your Lordship pleases I will read those passages out of the Books L. C. J. Ay do so Oates Says Mr. Recorder of London in particular to that part of the Prisoners Defence at the Trial of the Five Jesuits and the full scope given them of making Objections to the Evidence when he gave Judgment of Death upon these Five Jesuits and
always according to the present Testimony that is before us Oates Then my Lord I offer this to your Consideration That those men that were thus charged by me with High-Treason were Priests and Jesuits most of them and particularly Mr. Ireland in whose Trial I am said to have committed this Perjury and you shall find him to have been by others proved a Priest and a Jesuit and actually engaged in a Design against the Life of the King If I then do prove that Ireland was engaged in a Design against the late Kings Life and was a Priest and a Jesuit I desire to know Whether this be not a Collateral Evidence to render me of credit sufficient and support my Testimony L. C. J. By no means upon this Indictment It 's true it may give some credit to your Testimony but is not of it self sufficient Nay I 'll go a great way further than that I will suppose that there was a Consult of the Jesuits upon the 24th of April 78 at the White-horse-Tavern in the Strand where those you say were present were all present Ireland and Whitebread and Pickering Grove and Fenwick were all there and that they did there come to a Resolution to destroy the late King Suppose all this to be true and yet you all this time are not innocent of the Fact imputed to you because you swore directly That You were there at that Consult too which you were not if these men swear true for then you were at St. Omers at that time and therefore give us some sort of Testimony to satisfie us that you were here and then you will set all right again If the Jesuits and Priests did Plot that is nothing to make your Evidence true if you swore that which you did not know of your own knowledge Oates Shall it be allow'd then that Ireland was a Jesuit and a Papist L. C. J. If it should that will be to very little purpose for your Turn Oates There is the Evidence of a Record for it my Lord but if that be not sufficient I can call Witnesses to prove it Pray call Mr. Miles Prance which was done but be did not appear Cryer He is not here Oates He was subpoena'd my Lord to come hither L. C. J. I can't help it if he will not come but I 'll tell you for methods sake not to prescribe to you but to tell you what I think may be more for your advantage than any of these Inferences that you are making If you did call two or three Witnesses to prove that you were in Town the 22d 23d or 24th of April it would be the best Defence you can make and would give the best answer to all that is objected against you Oates I will do that my Lord then and follow your directions L. C. J. Do so that is the best way Oates Cryer call Cicilia Mayo Cryer Here she is Oates Swear her which was done L. C. J. Well what do you ask this Witness Oates Pray Mrs. Mayo give my Lord and the Jury an account whether you did see me in London the latter-part of April or the beginning of May 78 for that is the question now before the Court. L. C. J. Ay what say you when did you see him in 78 Mrs. Mayo My Lord I saw him the latter-end of April He came to Sir Richard Barker's House where I did then live and afterwards he came again thither within a few days By this circumstance I remember it Sir Richard Barker my Master was sick all the month of April and in the Countrey only he came now and then home for a little while and went again Now Mr. Oates came there when he was absent and a young man that lived in the House came to me and told me There was Mr. Oates in the strangest disguise that ever was Says he I think he is turn'd Quaker No said I he is no Quaker for they wear no Perriwigs and I rebuk'd the young Man for saying so As for Mr. Oates I never saw his face before that time that I know of L. C. J. How do you know that to be Mr. Oates then Mrs. Mayo The Family knew him and they told me it was he That is the Gentleman there I speak now nothing but that which I testified seven years ago and it is all Truth and nothing but the Truth L. C. J. Ay no doubt of it thou swear'st nothing but the Truth Mrs. Maro My Lord he came three or four days afterwards again to the house and then the young man came to me and told me That Parson Oates was turn'd Jesuit and thereupon I said to him Good Lord why dost thou concern thy self with him canst not let him alone I lookt upon him and saw him at that time And when he came that time he went to Sir Richard's Ladies Sister who is now in Wales and coming to her said she Mr. Oates I hear you are turn'd Jesuit and we can have no Society with you now At last he stay'd to Dinner with them and stay'd most of the day there Then he comes the latter-end of May Whitsuntide was in May that year and I know he came before Whitsuntide by this token I speak of the second time of his coming Our Custom in the house was to Wash and Scowr before the time and I was sending for a Woman to come and help to Wash and Scowr and then he was walking in the Garden and the young man came and told me Oates was there he came into the Pantry to me Look said he he is come again and he is turn'd Jesuit by his disguise Why Benjamin said I what hast thou to do with the man canst not let him alone L. C. J. What was the Name of that young Man you speak of Mrs. Mayo Truly my Lord he is dead or he would have testified the same thing L. C. J. But what was his Name Mrs. Mayo Benjamin I can't tell his other Name L. C. J. Well go on Mrs. Mayo Said I to him Why dost thou scorn this man Prithee get out of the Room I am not able to hear it So he walk'd the space of an hour in the Garden L. C. J. Is Sir Richard Barker living Mrs. Mayo Yes my Lord he is but he is not well L. C. J. Was he at home when Oates was there Mrs. Mayo No my Lord I think not L. C. J. Who din'd with him do you say when he din'd there Mrs. Mayo My Ladies Sister Lord Ch. Justice What is her Name Mrs. Mayo Madam Thurrel Lord Ch. Justice And who else Mrs. Mayo And her Sons Lord Ch. Justice Where are they Mrs. Mayo They are both dead Lord Ch. Justice And who else was there Mrs. Mayo One Doctor Cocket Lord Ch. Justice Where is he Mrs. Mayo He is in Wales too my Lord. Lord Ch. Justice 'T is a great misfortune to have so many dead or so far remote Oates My Lord six years time makes a great alteration
in a Family Lord Ch. Justice Was there any body else there Mrs. Mayo There were two of the Daughters and they could all come and testifie the same thing Lord Ch. Justice Where are they and what is become of them why are they not here Mrs. Mayo They are living in Lincolnshire my Lord I think Lord Ch. Justice What else have you more to say Mr. Att. Gen. Pray Mrs. Mayo let me ask you a question What colour'd Cloaths had he on when you faw him first Mrs. Mayo He had a whitish Hat and colour'd Cloaths Mr. Sol. Gen. What time of the day was it you saw him Mrs. Mayo In the morning Lord Ch. Justice Did he go publickly Mrs. Mayo Yes he went publickly Mr. Sol. Gen. Did he come often to the house Mrs. Mayo He was there frequently my Lord. Mr. Sol. Gen. Then it seems he was so disguis'd that he could walk publickly in the streets of London at Noon-day and was frequently in the Family Mrs. Mayo Yes my Lord. Lord Ch. Justice Now tell me who was in the Family Mr. Att. Gen. Mrs. Mayo Lord Ch. Justice Pray give me leave to ask her the question Who was there at that time Mrs. Mayo Sir Richard Barker's Ladies Sister Madam Thurrel and his two Daughters and two of his Kinsmen and two of the Servants one is here a Witness now Lord Ch. Justice Who is that that is a Witness now Mrs. Mayo One that belongs to Sir Richard Barker and the other is now dead those two Kinsmen are dead Lord Ch. Justice What is become of the two Daughters say you Mrs. Mayo They are in Lincolnshire as I take it my Lord. Lord Ch. Justice When did you hear from them Mr. Att. Gen. My Lord it is half a year ago almost since Mr. Oates had notice of this Trial. Lord Ch. Justice Where is Sir Richard Barker himself Mrs. Mayo I was with Sir Richard Barker and he purposed to have come hither but being a crazy man and ancient it seems he could not and desir'd to be excus'd for he had a bad night and was not well but he desired that the Court should know if he were well he would be there Mr. Att. Gen. Were you sworn at a former Trial about this matter Mrs. Mayo Mrs. Mayo Yes Sir I was Mr. Att. Gen. Do you remember what you swore then Mrs. Mayo The same I do now Mr. Att. Gen. Then I ask you this question How long before Whitsuntide was it that you saw Mr. Oates at Sir Richard Barker's Mrs. Mayo A pretty while before twice Oates Mrs Mayo I 'll put you a fair question Whether or no it might not be a fortnight before Whitsuntide you think Mrs. Mayo The last time I saw you was a week before Whitsuntide Lord Ch. Justice How can you tell it was but a week Mrs. Mayo 'T was but a week because at that time I had sent the Boy for the Woman to scowr and wash there Lord Ch. Justice Was that the last time you saw him Mrs. Mayo Yes I saw him several times before and it was all before Whitsuntide Lord Ch. Justice How long before that was the first time that you saw him Mrs. Mayo He would be away for three or four days and come again Lord Ch. Justice But how long before the last time was the first time you saw him Mrs. Mayo He came still to and again Lord Ch. Justice When was the time that you saw him next before the week before Whitsuntide which as you say was the last time you saw him Mrs. Mayo I am not able to say that Lord Ch. Justice Did you believe it was within the compass of a week before Mrs. Mayo To the best of my remembrance it was Lord Ch. Justice When was the first time you saw him Mrs Mayo 'T was in the beginning of May. Lord Ch. Justice You said at first it was the latter-end of April Mrs. Mayo Pray my Lord let me a little think I am unwilling to be mistaken I would say nothing but the Truth Lord Ch. Justice No I would not have thee but for Gods sake let us have the Truth that is that we look for Mrs. Mayo I say the Coach-man saw him there as well as I and he can tell you better than I. Lord Ch. Justice But I ask you this question positively Was it in May or April Mrs Mayo To the best of my remembrance it was the beginning of May Lord Ch. Justice Was it within a week of May Mrs. Mayo I believe it was I cannot tell exactly to a day Mr. Sol. Gen. Was it so or not Mrs Mayo I cannot be positive to a day it is now six years time since I was first examin'd about it Mr Att Gen But you can remember what you swore then can't you Mrs Mayo I declare it I speak not a syllable but I will aver to be true before the great God Mr. Sol. Gen Can you swear it was within the first seven days of May Lord Chief Justice You see Mr. Sollicitor she says she cannot Mr. Att Gen Did not you say at that Trial that you did never see his face till a week before Whitsuntide or a little after Mrs. Mayo I did swear the same that I do now to the best of my remembrance that is the Truth Mr Att Gen But did you not swear so Mrs Mayo I never saw him before that first time he came to Sir Richard Barker's and after the last time that he came I saw him not till after the Plot was discovered Mr. Sol. Gen. How long was that after he had been at your Masters horse Mrs. Mayo It was a good while I cannot tell how long Lord Ch. Justice Was it within a month or two months Mrs. Mayo It was more my Lord. Lord Ch. Justice Where was Sir Richard Barker at that time Mrs. Mayo He was at Putney Lord Ch. Justice Then he did not see him Mrs. Mayo Not then he did not Lord Ch. Justice Did he afterwards Mrs. Mayo Yes he did see him afterwards Lord Ch. Justice How long afterwards was it Mrs. Mayo I can't tell how long afterwards it was my Lord. Lord Ch. Justice About what time was it Mrs. Mayo After the Plot was discovered he was up and down in the Family Lord Ch. Justice You never knew Mr. Oates before that time he came in a Disguise and you did not know him then but as they told you it was he Mrs. Mayo No I did not but as they told me then and this is the man I 'll swear it Oates Call John Butler Crier Here is John Butler Oates Swear him which was done My Lord if you please I will propose my questions to your Lordship and my first question is this I pray your Lordship would ask him Whether he gave in any Evidence at the Five Jesuits Trial or Langhorn's Trial about my being in Town in April or May 78 Lord Ch. Justice Did you give any Evidence at the Five
Jesuits Trial Butler Yes I did Lord Ch. Justice Did you give any Evidence at Langhorn's Trial Butler Yes my Lord I was a Witness there Oates My Lord it is so long ago that ignorant people that come innocently without design may not be so ready in their remembrance as those that conn'd their Leston for so long time together Lord Ch. Justice Well well what do you ask him next Whether he will stand by that Evidence he gave then Butler That is all I have to say my Lord I did testifie the Truth then and will abide by it Lord Ch. Justice But he must give the same over again here or it will signifie nothing Oates My Lord it is now six years since and this question was not thought to be stirr'd so long after Therefore I beg so much favour that the Evidence he did give at Mr. Langhorn's Trial may be read to him Lord Ch. Justice O by no means Oates My Lord it is such a distance of time Lord Ch. Justice Look ye if he has any Notes himself he may look on them to refresh him Oates My Lord he comes raw hither without any instruction at all Lord Ch. Justice So should every Witness God forbid we should countenance the instructing of Witnesses what they should swear Oates I beg your pardon my Lord I did hope this favour might be granted I will then ask him some questions Lord Ch. Justice Ay ay do refresh his memory by questions as much as you can Come I 'll ask him some questions for you Do you remember you saw Mr. Oates at any time in the year 78 Butler If it please your Lordship as near as I can remember I saw him in May before the Plot was discovered Lord Ch. Justice That was the year 78. Butler I am sure I did see him about that time Lord Ch. Justice Where did you see him Butler I was a Servant to Sir Richard Barker and Mr. Oates I had been acquainted with before he went to Sea he us'd to come to my Masters house frequently and divers times he din'd at the Table and I waited upon my Master there Lord Ch. Justice When was that he din'd there at the Table Butler A year before that time in May that I spoke of before It was before he went to Sea Lord Ch. Justice When did you see him again Butler After he came from Sea I saw him at my Masters house Lord Ch. Justice When was it that he went to Sea Butler It was a year or two before the May that I saw him disguis'd coming to my Masters house Mr. Att. Gen. Ay what disguise did he come in Butler His hair was cut off close cropt to his ears and an old white Hat over his head and a short gray Coat over like a Horse mans Coat Lord Ch. Justice How came you to take such notice of him at that time as to be able to swear when this was Butler I was call'd presently after for a Witness Lord Ch. Justice How long after this was it that you were call'd to be a Witness Butler It was when the Trials were at the Old Bailey Lord Ch. Justice Was this the first time you had recollected these circumstances Butler Yes my Lord that was the first time Lord Ch. Justice Then how came you a year and a halfs time afterwards to remember the precise month of May when you did not know you should be call'd to question about it and yet you cannot remember the time particularly when Oates went to Sea but take the compass of a year or two Butler I guess it was a year before I cannot exactly tell Lord Ch. Justice When you can but guess at the time of such a remarkable passage within the compass of a year or two how can you pitch upon the very month for such a thing as this is a year and halfs time after Oates No my Lord it was not so long as a year and a half Lord Ch. Justice Pray Sir have patience Oates My Lord the Records shew that Ireland's Trial was the 17th of December 78 and the Five Jesuits Trial was the 15th of June 79. Lord Ch. Justice Then it is a full twelve months time and more from the May that he says he saw you at Sir Richard Barker's to Whitebread's Tryal in which he was examin'd the first time Now that which I desire of him is to give me a reason why he remembers it was in the May was twelve-month before Butler My Lord The Lady whom I did serve dy'd in February before that year Lord Ch. Justice But give me some reason of your remembrance so long after Butler My Lord I do as well as I can Lord Ch. Justice Well what is it Butler My Lady was buried in February and he comes into the Yard where I was cleaning my Coach in May following that February which was May before the Discovery of the Plot. He ask'd me what alteration was in the Family I told him my Lady was dead and the Escutcheon was over the door for her He ask'd for Doctor Tongue when he came first in the house Lord Ch. Justice Why should he ask for Doctor Tongue Butler My Lord Doctor Tongue lodg'd there and he did ask for him I come to justifie the Truth upon my Salvation what I say is true Lord Ch. Justice Well when he ask'd whether Doctor Tongue was within what said you Butler I told him no but he went into the Room where Doctor Tongue us'd to lie but found him not there So he went out again that was the same time Mrs. Mayo saw him Lord Ch. Justice But Friend prethee mind what I ask thee because thou must give me satisfaction how thou com'st to remember this so as to be able to swear it for his going to ask for Tongue or the Escutcheon being over the door neither of those can be a reason for you to remember that this was in May for the Escutcheon may be up in June or in July or in August or in any other month after the time you speak of But how came you to take notice of this business that it was in May Butler Sir Richard Barker my Master was then sick at Putney which was in May though I cannot speak to a day or a week particularly Lord Ch. Justice Then prethee let me ask thee this question How long had your Master been sick before that Butler He had never been well since my Lady dy'd Lord Ch. Justice When was it that your Lady dy'd Butler In February before L. C. J. How long after that did your Master Sir Richard Barker continue sick Butler Half a year I believe L. C. J. Why then suppose your Master fell sick immediately after your Lady died and he continued sick half a year after yet all this while Oates might come during his sickness even in the month of June or July when 't is acknowledg'd he was in Town and not be here in February which is testified by
what you say and now I ask you upon your Oath when was the first time you saw Mr. Oates when he came in that disguise you speak of Butler I told you it was in May Sir Mr. Soll. Gen. How far in May consider well what you say Butler To the best of my remembrance it was the beginning of May. Mr. Soll. Gen. Do you think it was within a Week or the First Ten days of May Butler I cannot tell that as well as I remember it was the beginning of May. Mr. Soll. Gen. When you saw him first in May who else as you remember was by Butler Mrs. Mayo Mr. Soll. Gen. And no body else Butler Yes One Benjamin Turbet who is since dead Mr. Soll. Gen. But consider your Oath Friend once more and recollect your self do you swear positively Mrs. Mayo was by and did see him at the same time Butler I see her look out of the Window into the Yard and I believe she did see him Mr. Soll. Gen. Well then let us examine her Evidence and yours together and see how they agree Oates My Lord these are not questions tending to satisfy the Jury at all as to the point in question L. C. J. Are they not methinks they are whatsoever you think Oates After Six years time to ask such poor ignorant people such trifling questions L. C. J. Pray Sir be contented and let the Kings Council examine the Witnesses Oates My Lord he says I was here in May that 's enough L. C. J. Well Sir I know what he says Mr. Soll. Gen. And you shall hear Mr. Oates how your Witnesses agree L. C. J. Go on Mr. Sollicitor and do you sit still and be quiet Mr. Soll. Gen. Then my Lord I would ask him this question more the first time you saw Oates come to Sir Richard Barkers what habit pray you was he in Butler He was in a disguise Mr. Soll. Gen. Ay what disguise Butler He had a White Hat flapping over his Ears his Hair cut short close to his Ears and a grey short Coat Mr. Soll. Gen. Had he never a Periwig on Butler No his Hair was cut short to his Ears Mr. Hauses Was he in such a disguise that a Man might not ordinarily know him that had known him before Butler Truly my Lord I did not know him when he first came in till he spoke to me and asked me how do you John and then I recollected who he was that it was Mr. Oates Mr. Soll. Gen. Was he always in the same Habit when he came thither Butler The next time he came he had a Cinnamon coloured Suit and a long black Periwig that was curl'd down thus far and a black Hat with a green Ribbon and green Cuff-strings about his Wrists L. C. J. Did you ever see Oates dine there Butler Yes I did L. C. J. When was that Butler After my Master came home from Putney L. C. J. Who was there besides Butler One Sir William Thurrell and Madam Thurrell L. C. J. How often did he dine there Butler Several times L. C. J. Who else was there Butler My Master and his Daughter L. C. J. And who else Butler Mrs. Mayo L. C. J. What is become of your Masters Daughter Butler I beg your pardon for that my Lord. L. C. J. Where is she Man Butler She is at home I suppose L. C. J. What dost thou beg my pardon for then Butler My Lord I call to mind she did not dine with them L. C. J. Did she dine at any time with him there Butler Yes I remember several times but not then L. C. J. When did you see your Masters Daughter last Butler I have not seen her this Quarter of this Year L. C. J. Where is she now Butler At home at Putney my Lord I believe L. C. J. And she was several times there when he din'd there Butler Yes She was at home L. C. J. Did Mrs. Mayo see him at Dinner there Butler Yes I believe she did L. C. J. How often did he dine there about this time you speak of Butler Several times L. C. J. Do you think seven times Butler I do think he might have din'd there seven times L. C. J. Did he more than seven times do you think Butler I cannot number how many times it was L. C. J. Now come in Mrs. Mayo again Mrs. Mayo Here I am my Lord. L. C. J. Mrs. Mayo give me leave to ask you a question or two Mrs. Mayo Yes my Lord what you please L. C. J. You say if I do not mis-remember if I do I beg your pardon and you 'l correct me a week in May was the first time you saw Mr. Oates and that was at Sir Richard Barkers Mrs. Mayo I think it might be about the beginning of May. L. C. J. Had he been in the House before Mrs. Mayo Not at that time that I know of but as they told me L. C. J. Who told you Mrs. Mayo That Coach-man there John Butler and one Benjamin who liv'd in the House L. C. J. Then you did not see him the first time he came what say you Butler Butler She did see him out of the Window in the yard L. C. J. Well let that pass then come I 'le ask you another question upon your Oath how often have you seen him dine there Mrs. Mayo I saw him dine that time that I spoke of L. C. J. Did not he dine there above once Mrs. Mayo No he did not L. C. J. What say you Butler Butler He did dine there several times with them L. C. J. Then one of you two must be mistaken I am sure Oates My Lord if your Lordship would please to give me leave to speak I would set it right L. C. J. Good Sir let them set themselves right if they can we need none of your Instructions Oates My Lord I desire L. C. J. Why how now pray Sir be at quiet Mrs. Mayo pray what Habit had Oates when you saw him first Mrs. Mayo He was in a grey Hat and a grey Coat L. C. J. Was his hair short or long Mrs. Mayo He had on a kind of a short Wigg Mr. Soll. Gen. You are sure it was a Wigg Mrs. Mayo Yes a kind of a brown Perriwigg L. C. J. And he says his hair was cut short to his ears Oates These things are very lean stuff to perjure a Witness upon Mr. Soll. Gen. When he came the second time what Cloaths had he on Mrs. Mayo Afterwards he came in black Cloaths and a long Perriwig Mr. Hauses What coloured Perriwig was that a black or a white one Mrs. Mayo Not a black but a brown Mr. Soll. Gen. You say it was long Mrs. Mayo Longer than his other yet not very long neither L. C. J. Here are I know not how many Contradictions in these Witnesses Testimonies Oates Truly my Lord I do not find in the Examination of the St. Omers Witnesses you were so strict or bore
half so hard upon them as you do upon my Witnesses what does it signifie my Lord whether the Wigg were long or short black or brown L. C. J. We have no other way to detect Perjuries but by these Circumstances and 't is the duty of a Judge to enquire into all Particulars as in a Controversie about words were they spoken in Latin or in English and so to all places and postures of sitting riding or the like as you know the Perjury of the Elders in the case of Susanna was by their different Testimony in particular Circumstances discovered Oates My Lord I will ask her but one short question by the Oath you have taken Mrs. Mayo to speak the Truth the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth as you expect the face of God with comfort in another World did you see me at Sir Richard Barkers at any time in May 78. the May before the Plot was discovered for that is the main question Mrs. Mayo Yes I did and I speak nothing here but what I speak as in the presence of the Lord. L. C. J. Prithee Woman dost thou think we ask thee any thing that we think thou dost not speak in the presence of the Lord we are all of us in the presence of the Lord always Mrs. Mayo And shall answer before him for all that we have done and said all of us the proudest and the greatest here L. C. J. But I would not have so much to answer for as thou hast in this business for all the World Mr. Soll. Gen. Well we have done with her now she may go away L. C. J. Where does she live now Cryer Mrs. Mayo where do you live now Mrs. Mayo In Leaden-hall-street my Lord. L. C. J. When did you see Sir Richard Barker's Daughter Mrs. Mayo About a Fortnight ago L. C. J. Where Mrs. Mayo In Barbican in London L. C. J. Do you live with Sir Richard Barker now Mrs. Mayo I do not live with him now L. C. J. Did his Daughter use to be at the Table at dinner Mrs. Mayo She was often in the Country my Lord. L. C. J. Did she eat at his Table at that time when Oates was there Mrs. Mayo I am not able to say whether she did or not she used to be in Wales at Sir Thomas Middleton's sometimes and with Madam Thurrell her Aunt who was her Mothers Sister and her two Daughters L. C. J. In Wales dost thou say where Mrs. Mayo My Lord in your own Country at one Doctor Cockets I know your Lordship though your Lordship does not know me L. C. J. I am very glad of it good Woman but prithee did ever Sir Richard Barker dine with Mr. Oates Mrs. Mayo I cannot say he did he went to and fro L. C. J. Well have you any more Witnesses Oates Cryer call Philip Page Cryer Here he is Sir Oates Pray swear him which was done pray be pleased to give my Lord and the Jury the best account you can of my being in Town But Mr. Page the question that I first ask you is whether I was here in April or May and in what year it was that you did see me at your Masters House L. C. J. When did you see Mr. Oates at your Master's House you mean Sir Richard Barker to be his Master I suppose Oates Yes my Lord. L. C. J. What do you say to it Page Truly I cannot be positive to the year but to the best of my remembrance it was 78. Oates Pray tell my Lord and the Jury some Circumstances in that year that did happen to you that makes you believe it was 78. Page Sir I 'le give you the best satisfaction I can to the best of my knowledge he came to Sir Richard Barker's one evening and there he enquired for Doctor Tongue he was in a disguise in a light coloured Coat something like to Frize but it was not Frize the term that they give it I cannot so readily tell he had his hair cut short almost to his ears and he had a broad-brim'd Hat on and a small stick in his hand walking melancholly about the Hall I happening to be the first body he met with as I suppose he asked me if Doctor Tongue was within I told him no I had not seen him of a considerable time he then asked me where Sir Richard Barker was I told him he was ill now at Putney says he when will he be here I told him I could not tell L. C. J. Did he see any body there but you Page That I cannot tell my Lord not that I know of L. C. J. What time of the year was it Mr. Att. Gen. And what Month Page What year and what month it was I am not able to say my Lord. L. C. J. What became of him after that Page He went out of our Gates then Sir he was walking up and down melancholy and not finding any one as I suppose to answer him he continued walking in the Patients Hall where they used to wait on Sir Richard Barker that came to discourse with him about Physick and upon my answer to his question he went away L. C. J. Did you ever see him any other time near to that time Page No I did not L. C. J. Did you use to wait on Table Page No I did not L. C. J. What Service were you then engaged in at Sir Richard Barker's Page I made up the Physick my Lord. L. C. J. Did you not acquaint the Coach-man nor Mrs. Mayo nor Sir Richard Barker with it Page I think Sir Richard Barker was in Town soon after and I did acquaint him with it Oates But can't you tell what time this is Sir Page I can say no other than I have said I believe it was in 78. L. C. J. Was this in June July or May or when Page I cannot say punctually what month it was my Lord but to the best of my knowledge and remembrance it was in the beginning of May. Oates Had not your Master a Patient at Islington at that time that was sick of a Feaver Page Yes he had Mr. J. Withens Why would Mr. Oates have given the Patient Physick Page No my Lord but 't was about that time that the Patient was under my Master's Cure Oates Indeed the St. Omers men do swear thorough stitch but my honest Witnesses are cautious it being so long ago and he that is a Minister of the Church of England as they say speaks to a very day upon a much slighter Circumstance pray call Mr. William Walker Cryer Here he is Oates Swear him which was done be pleased Walker to give my Lord to understand when 't was you saw me here in London in disguise and when it was you swore six years agone at the Old-Bayly that you saw me here in London Sir the time in Controversie is this I came here to discover a Plot of the Papists against the Kings Life and the Religion and I swore
of Record in the House of Lords L. C. J. But that we are not to take notice of without the Record be brought in Evidence before us we must go according to the course of Law in all Cases Oates Then my Lord I must betake my self to another part of my defence and that is to prove the frequent attempts made to baffle the Discovery of this Popish Plot and to stifle the Murder of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey and to fling it upon a Protestant Peer L. C. J. But that is no Evidence neither Mr. Just Holloway Surely that is very Collateral Evidence L. C. J. Nay it is no Evidence at all in this Case we must not admit of any such Evidence to be given Oates Good my Lord if this had not been true which was sworn by Witnesses that had discovered the Plot why should these Men appear to suborn Witnesses and they have been Convicted of Subornation and endeavouring to baffle the Discovery particularly as to Justice Godfrey's Death L. C. J. Mr. Oates I must keep you to Evidence that is proper we are upon our Oaths to go according to Law and the Jury are upon their Oaths to Try this Cause according to their Evidence and we are bound to give them this advice in point of Law that nothing must weigh or have any consideration with them that you offer if it be not legal and proper Evidence if you can say and prove that any of the Witnesses that have been produc'd this day against you have been tamper'd with or that they have tamper'd with any of the former Evidence that is a good Evidence against them but it must not be by any means admitted that the time of the Court be taken up or the Jury enveigled by that which has not a natural tendency to the business before us Oates But if your Lordship please this Consult in April 78. was discovered to the House of Commons among the other parts of the Discovery of the Treasons of several Noble Men and Gentlemen now upon the whole discovery of the Plot I would desire that I might give in proof the Proceedings of the House of Commons L. C. J. No no you cannot Oates Pray my Lord is not the Journal of the House of Commons Evidence L. C. J. No we say it is not at all Oates Is that the Opinion of the whole Court my Lord L. C. J. Yes undoubtedly there is no question of it Oates Is any Record of the House of Lords Evidence L. C. J. Yes I tell you it is and that because it is a Record but there is a vast difference between the Records of the House of Lords and the Journals of the House of Commons Oates The Journals have been delivered in as Evidence before now L. C. J. I cannot tell what they have been but I am sure they ought not to be and whatever they have been elsewhere they cannot be here and I 'le tell you a plain reason for it because they have not so much power in the House of Commons as to give an Oath but the House of Peers is a Court of Record and therefore their Proceedings are Evidence as the Proceedings of the Kings Bench here or any other Court of Record are Oates Then my Lord if that part of my Evidence be over-rul'd before I come to summ up my Evidence I desire to offer this thing My Lord I can produce several Members of the House of Commons in the several Parliaments that can remember how they proceeded against the Lords in the Tower and the Popish Traitors upon my Discovery and what credit I had in the House of Commons Will that be Evidence pray my Lord L. C. J. No it will not if you will produce any one that you told this to before the publick Discovery that may be Evidence such as it is and is often allow'd but what the House of Commons did upon the Discovery that 's not any Evidence at all Oates Then my Lord suppose I can prove that I gave an Early and Timely account to any of the House of Lords of this Conspiracy and did acquaint them with the Consult in April as part of it I desire to know whether in producing any of those Lords I shall give that which is Evidence L. C. J. Call whom you will that you told any thing to that is a sort of Evidence I tell you Oates Then I call my Lord of Devonshire L. C. J. Here is my Lord of Devonshire Oates My Lord I beg your pardon for the trouble I put your Lordship to but your Lordship sees the necessity of it it is for the justification of the Truth to which I will give my Blood for a Seal if I be call'd to it L. C. J. My Lord of Devonshire your Lordship must be sworn which was done Oates Will your Lordship be pleased to acquaint the Court and the Jury your Lordship being at that time a Member of the Commons House what an account I gave there of this particular Consult to keep to that point that is here in question before the Court this day and with what credit I was received in all these Parliaments for my Credit and the Credit of the Parliament is now in question E. of Devonshire My Lord all I can say to it is this you Mr. Oates gave a long account of a Consult and Conspiracy among the Jesuits but I cannot remember any particular it is so long ago L. C. J. Every Body knows this you gave a long Narrative into the House of Commons and House of Lords too Oates Ay and it was a true one but my Lord of Devonshire I desire your Lordship would be pleased to give the Court and the Jury an account with what credit I was received in those Three Parliaments your Lordship sat as Member in E. of Devonshire I remember that the two Westminster Parliaments after the long Parliament were so satisfied with the Discovery that they passed a Vote in the House of Commons L. C. J. The Votes of the House of Commons are no Evidence at all Oates They show what opinion the Parliament was of L. C. J. Many Votes that have been made of late I hope will neither be Evidence for nor put in practice again E. of Devonshire My Lord it is well known to all the World the Vote I speak of L. C. J. Nay my Lord I speak not to your Lordship for we all know those Votes that I speak of were not according to your Lordships mind But we only say thus in General that because the House of Commons cannot give an Oath therefore what is done there is not an Evidence here or in any Court of Record Oates But my Lord that I must urge I do perceive that in the time of Parliament and during the Sitting of the House of Commons Votes have been brought in as Barrs to the Proceedings of Inferior Courts and this Court does not look upon it self as Superior to the Great Court of
Parliament and then if they may be brought L. C. J. Which they cannot be nor never were nor I am sure ought to be nor I hope never will be as long as there is any Justice in the Nation Oates But my Lord you will allow the Records of the House of Lords to be Evidence L. C. J. Yes I tell you I will and for that reason because they are Records out of a Court of Record an Order of Court Baron is no Evidence because it is no Court of Record but a Judgment of a Court Leet is Evidence because it is a Court of Record and there 's the difference Oates My Lord I call in the next place my Lord of Anglesey if he be in Court L. C. J. No he is not here Oates Pray will you give me leave to call my Lord Keeper then L. C. J. See in the Court of Chancery whether my Lord Keeper be there Cryer No my Lord he is not he is gone Oates He was Subpoena'd my Lord and I can have Affidavit made of it he was a material Witness for me L. C. J. I cannot help it he is not here Oates Pray call my Lord Chief Baron L. C. J. Go one of you into the Exchequer and see if my Lord Chief Baron be there and tell him Mr. Oates calls for him as a Witness Oates And Mr. Justice Levins Cryer The Courts are both up and they are all gone Oates They were subpoena'd I am sure to be here well go and see whether they are there or no. L. C. J. In the mean time do you call some other Witnesses Oates I call my Lord Chief Justice Jones L. C. J. The Cryer is gone to look for the Judges Oates Then I call my Lord of Clare L. C. J. Here is my Lord of Clare E. of Clare My Lord I can remember nothing it is so long time ago L. C. J. My Lord of Clare says he can remember nothing Oates I only call my Lord of Clare to ask him one question which I hope his Lordship will remember L. C. J. Swear my Lord of Clare which was done well what is it you ask my Lord Oates My Lord of Clare the question I would ask your Lordship is with what credit I was received in the House of Lords upon my Discovery and that you will to the best of your memory give my Lord and the Jury an account how the House of Peers proceeded upon my Evidence E. of Clare Truly my Lord I cannot give any account it is of so long standing Oates It is a great while ago my Lord and therefore it is hard measure that I must be brought to this Tryal so long after L. C. J. If it be a long time we cannot help it we cannot force People to prosecute sooner than they will do Oates I desire Mr. Baron Gregory may be called L. C. J. He is not here but see and call my Brother Gregory I hear they are all together in the Treasury Oates Then I call Mr. Williams that was Speaker in the House of Commons L. C. J. Here is Mr. Williams he was sworn Oates I desire Mr. Williams because you were then Speaker of the Commons House of Parliament you would be pleased to tell what you remember concerning the credit I received in that Parliament in which you were Speaker upon the Discovery I made of the Popish Plot and particularly as to the Consult of Jesuits to kill the late King in the month of April 78. Mr. Williams My Lord my Memory is never very good but especially in a case that is at such a distance of time and which consists of so many Particulars as this I mean Mr. Oates Discovery But this my Lord I do remember he was examin'd at the Bar of the House of Commons and gave a long account but it is more than any man can do to tell every Particular that is said in that House L. C. J. Was he upon his Oath Mr. Williams at the Bar of the House of Commons Mr. Williams My Lord he was as other men are that are examin'd in the House of Commons L. C. J. We all know it could not be upon Oath they have not Power to give an Oath Mr. Williams What Reputation he was of I cannot say so well as what their Proceedings did testifie L. C. J. Nor in case they did believe him never so much is it any thing to this question which is whether he swore true or false at Ireland's Tryal Mr. Wiliams My Lord when a Person is brought to the Barr there to be a Witness in any Cause every body is silent and the Witness is heard what he has to say and so was Mr. Oates when he had done he withdrew but what the Opinion of the House was upon it I must submit to their Votes and Resolutions L. C. J. Which you know Mr. Williams are no Evidence Mr. Williams That I must submit to the Court. Oates I desire my Lord of Clare would be pleased to tell if he remembers what Credit the House of Lords gave me upon my Discovery E. of Clare My Lord I do not well hear Mr. Oates question Oates My Lord my question is this when I was brought to the Bar of the Lords House whether I did not receive the thanks of the Lords House for my Discovery E. of Clare Truly Sir at the beginning of the Discovery of the Popish Plot I was not in Town nor in the House L. C. J. But now Mr. Oates I hope you are satisfied by the answer that is given by your own Witness that what is done in the House of Commons is no Evidence and I would have you remember that is the Reason of it because they are no Court of Record and because they cannot so much as give an Oath Oates My Lord I see my Lord of Huntingdon is here and tho I did not Subpoena his Lordship nor design'd to have troubled him yet being here I desire his Lordship would give the Court an account what Credit I had in the House of Lords upon my Discovery L. C. J. Swear my Lord of Huntingdon which was done E. of Huntingdon I do believe my Lord Mr. Oates Discovery found a good reception in the House of Lords but it was grounded upon the opinion that what he said was true and that he was an honest man for so the House then accounted him to be and upon this it was their Lordships gave credit to his Testimony and indeed had the matter been true it was of high Importance to have it thorougly examined But since that time it being apparent there were so many and great Contradictions Falsities and Perjuries in his Evidence upon which so much innocent blood hath been shed I believe a great many Persons who were concerned in the Trials of those unfortunate men are heartily afflicted and sorry for their share in it And I do believe most of the House of Peers have altered their opinion as to this
been call'd but he is not here Oates Call my Lord of Stamford Crier He is not here Oates Call Sir Francis Winnington Crier He is not here Oates Call Silas Titus Esq Crier He is not here Oates Call Sir George Treby Crier He is not here Oates Call Sir Francis Pemberton These have been all Subpoena'd Crier He is not here Oates Is my Lord Bishop of London L. C. J. Here is my Lord Bishop of London pray swear my Lord Bishop of London which was done Oates I beg your Lordship if you can would give an account of your remembrance in this matter your Lordship was often in Committees of the House of Peers about this business and from first to last you were in the Committee for further Examination of the Popish Plot And you were not only of the Committee but you also sate as a Baron in the House I humbly beg your Lordship would please to tell as far as you can charge your Memory what Reputation I had in the House of Lords where I was upon my Oath and in particular whether your Lordship remembers that I received the thanks of the House for the Service I had done for the King and Kingdom in the Discovery Mr. J. Holloway It is a long question my Lord. L. B. of London It is so my Lord but my answer will be very short for it is a very little I can remember after so great a distance of time and the transactions have been publick nor can I acquaint the Court with any thing but what is known already and that is this I remember that the Plot was discovered by him and his discovery was receiv'd as Evidence at the Barr of the House of Lords and believ'd and the thanks of the House were given him at that time for it L. C. J. There 's Sir George Treby What do you ask him but first let him be sworn which was done Oates Pray be pleas'd to ask Sir George Treby who was Chair-man of the Committee of Secrecy and was manager in the Trial of the Lord Viscount Stafford that he will be pleas'd to tell what Credit I had in both Houses upon that Trial. L. C. J. I told you before you must urge nothing of that Trial unless you have the Record-here Oates Then my Lord I desire Sir George may give an account what he knows of the correspondencies between Mr. Coleman and the See of Rome L. C. J. No that will not be any Evidence at all in this case for that is not at all here in question Oates Then my Lord I desire Sir George Treby may speak what he knows of my Credit in the House of Commons L. C. J. Ah! What says he to that Sir George Treby My Lord I can answer for nothing but my own Judgment I cannot tell what Credit he had with any particular Member of the House of Commons I do remember indeed he was there several times at the Barr but not upon Oath but as others usually are there and concerning the discovery there was a Vote all the Kingdom knows of that they were satisfied there was a Plot but whether that Vote was grounded altogether upon his Evidence or how far upon his Evidence I cannot tell nor what any Man thought of it besides my self Oates I desire Mr. Serj. Pemberton might be call'd again Crier He is not here Oates Then pray call Sir William Dolben Crier He is not here neither Oates Then I call Sir Edward Atkins Crier He is not here Oates Call Mr. Richard White Crier He is not here Oates My Lord these were all Subpoena'd but they will not come they are frighted away L. C. J. We know nothing of that they may come if they will Oates Call Mr. Thomas Cox Crier He is not here but here is Mr. White Oates I pray he may be sworn which was done I desire to know of him whether he were not a Jury man upon the Trials of Ireland and Whitebread Mr. White No I was not Oates Then I am mistaken I beg your pardon for this trouble L. C. J. Well there 's my Brother Dolben come now What say you to him Swear my Brother Dolben which was done Oates May it please you Sir William Dolben you sate as a Judge upon the Trials of Mr. Ireland Mr. Whitebread and Mr. Langhorn and I call you Sir William Dolben to give an account to my Lord and the Jury what Credit my Evidence had at those Tryals and how the Jury was satisfied with it L. C. J. There is the Verdict man that finds the Persons you speak of Guilty Oates If that be Evidence enough I am satisfied my Lord. L. C. J. Is not that better than his Opinion to show how the Jury was satisfied Ah! certainly better than the Opinion of all the twelve Judges for that point they would not have Convicted them except they had been satisfied with the Evidence Sir William Dolben Have you done with me Sir Oates I have Sir L. C. J. Have you call'd all your Witnesses or will you call any more Oates No my Lord I will call no more at present Mr. Att. Gen. Then my Lord wee 'l go on with another part of our Evidence Gentlemen you see Dr. Oates to support his Credit has given two sorts of Evidence the one is some Records of Tryals at the Old-Bayly wherein he had the good hap to be believ'd the other is several noble Persons and other Gentlemen as to the Credit he has had given to hiâ— Evidence before What they have said I shall not meddle with at all at this time but leave the Observations that are to be made thereupon till we come to summ up the Evidence for the King But as to the first part of his Evidence that is as to the Records produced and the Verdicts therein given and the Opinions of the Judges we have this to say in point of Evidence as an answer 1. We shall produce to you several Records wherein he has not been believ'd as that of Sir George Wakeman and my Lord Castlemain and not only so but we shall actually prove that he was perjur'd in them that what he swore against them was utterly false and you will hear this was not the first time that he had sworn false for â—n an Accusation that he gave at a Tryal at Hastings we shall prove he swore Buggery upon a Person which was prov'd false Oates Can you produce any such Record Mr. Attorney Mr. Att. Gen. Yes we shall L. C. J. Do not interrupt the Kings Council let them go on you shall be heard quietly in your time Mr. Hanses Nay Mr. Oates need not be so hasty to ask for the Records by degrees we shall produce Records enough against him Mr. Att. Gen. We shall prove also by the Journals of the Lords House that he did forswear himself for after he had there made a long Narrative of the Plot being askt whether he had any more to accuse than those Persons that
this Evidence that I have open'd and then I hope we shall satisfie the Jury and all that hear this Tryal that he is one of the most notorious Villains that liv'd upon the Earth to be sure that ever was known in this Kingdom Mr. Soll. Gen. First my Lord wee 'l produce our Records where is the Record of Sir George Wakeman Mr. Swift This is the Record of Sir George Wakeman and this is a true Copy I examin'd it Mr. Soll. Gen. Pray Sir Samuel Astry read a word or two of it C. Crown Here is an Indictment against Sir George Wakeman for High Treason he pleaded not Guilty and here is an Acquittal by the Jury Mr. Att. Gen. He being acquitted I desire he may be sworn which was done Mr. Soll. Gen. Pray Sir George Wakeman was Mr. Oates sworn against you at the Tryal S. G. Wakeman Yes Mr. Sollicitor he was Mr. Soll. Gen. Do you remember what he swore against you at that Tryal S. G. Wakeman Yes I do Sir Mr. Soll. Gen. Was that true that he swore by the Oath you have taken Oates Is that a fair question I desire the opinion of the Court. L. C. J. Ah! Why not Oates He was legally accus'd he cannot swear himself off L.C. J. But he is legally acquitted to we have a Record for that here Oates Ah! My Lord he was acquitted it 's well known how Mr. Soll. Gen. Come Sir was that he swore against you at your Trial true Sir G. Wakeman 'T was false L. C. J. What do you say Sir Sir G. Wakeman 'T was false upon my Oath my Lord. Mr. Soll. Gen. What particulars did he swear against you Mr. Pollexfen Ah! Pray tell the particulars as near as you can what he swore against you Sir G. Wakeman My Lord if your Lordship please I will give a little account what he swore against me before the King and Council Mr. Soll. Gen. That will not do Sir George Wakeman we do not ask you that L. C. J. No it must be only the Evidence that was given upon this Acquittal which is the Record here produc'd before us what did he swear against you then Sir G. Wakeman He swore at that Trial as near as I can remember that I undertook for a certain Summ of Money 15000 l. as I think it was to poyson the King and I was to do it by the means of the Queen I was to provide this Poyson by for her and she was to give it to the King This he swore at my Trial which God forbid it should be true nothing can be more false L. C. J. I ask you by the Oath you have taken you are now quitted and so in no danger and being upon your Oath ought to speak the truth without malice or ill will to him that did accuse you was that he swore true or false Sir G. Wakeman False false upon my Oath I speak it without any malice against the Man in the World Mr. Att. Gen. Then swear my Lord Castlemain which was done Sir G. Wakeman My Lord I 'le be bound to make it appear that all he swore against me was false Mr. Att. Gen. And so was it he swore against my Lord Castlemain and others that were acquitted at the same time with Sir George Wakeman Mr. Soll. Gen. First read the Record of my Lord Castlemain's Acquittal C. Crown Here is the very Record it self It was in this Court my Lord Castlemain was Indicted of High Treason and Tried and Acquitted Mr. Att. Gen. My Lord Castlemain pray what did Oates swear against you at your Trial and pray tell the Court whether that was true or false E. of Castlemain My Lord as near as I remember Mr. Oates did swear at my Trial that he met me in Lincolns-Inn-fields and that he went with me somewhere to Mr. Fenwicks Chamber in Dukes-street in Covent-garden where he said I did talk a great deal of Treason and a great discourse of that kind he said there was and he swore that I was in several Cabals in relation to the Kings death I was afterwards acquitted by the Jury that Tri'd me as appears by the Record and here I do declare as in the presence of God and with all the Imprecations of divine vengeance to fall upon me if I speak any thing but the truth that not only that which he swore was false but that I never had any thoughts in my heart much less did ever declare in my words of any injury or hurt against the late King And besides that I never saw the face of Oates in my life till after I was put in Prison upon his accusation of me Oates My Lord I desire to know what Religion that Noble Lord is of E. of Castlemain I am a Roman Catholick my Lord. L. C. J. We all know what Religion my Lord is of you need not ask that question Oates That 's not the point my Lord I must have declar'd in Evidence L. C. J. I wonder to see any Man that has the face of a Man carry it at this rate when he hears such an Evidence brought in against him Oates I wonder that Mr. Attorney will offer to bring this Evidence Men that must have malice against me L. C. J. Hold your Tongue you are a shame to Mankind Oates No my Lord I am neither a shame to my self or Mankind what I have sworn is true and I will stand by it to my last breath and seal it if occasion be with my Blood L. C. J. 'T were pitty but that it were to be done by thy Blood Oates Ah! Ah! my Lord I know why all this is and so may the World very easily too L. C. J. Such impudence and impiety was never known in any Christian Nation Oates But this will not do the work to make the Plot to be disbelieved things are not to be done by great noises I will stand by the truth L. C. J. Can you think to out-face such Evidence as this with your Impudence Oates But I hope you 'l give me leave to make my defence L. C. J. Then carry your self as becomes you in the Court. Oates My Lord I will do so L. C. J. If you do not we know how to make you do it you shall not think to Domineer here Oates My Lord I hope I do behave my self as I ought L. C. J. No You do not Oates Ill Language may provoke any Mans Passion my Lord. L. C. J. Keep your self within bounds and you shall be heard but we 'll suffer none of your Extravagancies Oates My Lord If I had been aware of this I could have produc'd Evidence that would have supported my Testimony in these matters L. C. J. Go on with your Proofs Mr. Attorney Mr. Attorney We will do so my Lord. E. of Castlemain Have you done with me Sir L. C. J. Have you any other questions to ask my Lord Castlemain Mr. Att. Gen. No my Lord. L. C. J. Then your Lordship may fit down
again where you were Mr. Att. Gen. Now my Lord we shall show the Lords Journal where it is Recorded that he swore he could accuse no body else but those that he nam'd and then we shall give an account that soon after he accus'd our present Soveraign and the Queen Dowager Mr. Soll. Gen. Where is the Clerk of the Parliament Mr. Swift Here he is Mr. Walker Mr. Att. Gen. Swear him which was done Mr. Soll. Gen. Mr. Walker is that the Journal of the House of Lords Mr. Walker Yes my Lord it is Mr. Sol. Gen. Deliver it in to the Clerk and let him read it L. C. J. Then you must direct to the time or else it will be to no purpose Mr. Swift Sir Samuel Astry pray turn to Friday the 29th of November 78. C. of Crown Reads Die veneris decimo nono Novembris 1678. Titus Oates being call'd in at the Barr desired to be heard a few words before he was sworn L. C. J. Mr. Attorney I doubt this will not be Evidence it is only a Paper of what he laid taken before the Lords but now whether that was upon Oath or no is the question nay it appears it was not upon Oath but says it was before he was sworn Mr. Att. Gen. My Lord I desire it may be read all out C. Crown Reads Titus Oates being call'd in at the Barr desir'd he might be heard a few words before he was sworn to speak to the main business which being granted to him he complain'd of the restraint he is under and being debarr'd of the liberty of his Friends coming to him and of conversing with any body in private and that no English-man ought to be restrain'd unless accus'd by one or more Witnesses and pray'd that the restraint might be taken off that he might be enabled to give his Evidence more cheerfully and that the House would be pleas'd to address to the King for that purpose and that his pardon may be renewed because he is under misprision of Treason to which the Lord Chancellour told him that the House would take his condition into consideration and then being sworn he was told by Lord Chancellour that the Lords have received an Address from the House of Commons in part upon Evidence by him given there and that the House expects he should give an account what that is which has begot such astonishment in the House of Commons as is expressed in the Address upon which Titus Oates said that in July last he saw a Letter from Sir George Wakeman L. C. J. Is this Evidence Mr. Attorney Mr. Att. Gen. My Lord the use we make of it is to prove that he did accuse the Queen L. C. J. What is the accusation of the Queen to this purpose Mr. Att. Gen. My Lord we say he had sworn several days before that he had no other persons to accuse L. C. J. You should produce that first that he swore so Mr. Att Gen. My Lord we should so I think and I thought it had been so done L. C. J. This is no Evidence for it is not upon Oath it does not say so Mr. Att. Gen. Yes it does my Lord but we will go on in order L. C. J. Come then let us see what was sworn about his having no more Persons to accuse Mr. Att. Gen. Pray Sir Samuel Astry look the 30th of October 78. C. of Crown Read Die Mercurii 30. Octobris 1678. Titus Oates being call'd in was sworn at the Barr and requir'd to answer to what he is now call'd in for concerning his discourse with the Lord Annesly last night about the Duke of York L. C. J. I doubt this will not be Evidence neither for we are now speaking only about what shall be Evidence We are not now medling with the methods of the House in their Examination of Witnesses but what is Evidence here suppose an Oath be administred to me for a particular purpose in the House of Lords that I shall answer to what is asked me concerning a discourse that I had with a third person Mr. Att. Gen. Pray Sir Sam. Astry look the next day for there my Lord he is examin'd upon the general Sir Sam. Astry Reads Die Jovis 31 of Octobris 1678. Mr. Att. Gen. But first read the latter end of the former days Proceedings beginning at those words upon consideration C. Crown Reads Upon consideration of what Titus Oates had said he was call'd in again and told by the Lord Chancellour that the House has directed he shall be heard again to morrow at Nine a Clock and the Lords do expect that by the Oath he hath now taken he should go thorow with what he hath to say and therefore he should prepare himself to deliver the whole truth of what he knows concerning the design against the Kings Person and the Government of this Kingdom L. C. J. But still Mr. Attorney we are but where we were for supposing upon my Examination upon Oath given me in the House of Lords to a particular purpose That my Lord Chancellor should tell me here my Lords intend to morrow that you by vertue of the Oath now given you should come and give them satisfaction as to other questions I doubt that would not be Evidence in Westminster-hall let us not stretch any thing further than it should be upon any account whatsoever for suppose I give you an Oath to make true answer to such questions as I shall ask you concerning what was said at the Sessions-house at such a Trial and then I come after and ask you upon the Oath you have taken what do you say concerning such a business 7 Years ago would that be Evidence Mr. Att. Gen. With submission my Lord if a Man be told he is upon his Oath to say all he knows of such a design what he says upon that Oath is Evidence L. C. J. You say very true Mr. Attorney if I give him a general Oath but what he says concerning any other matter than that particular thing which he was sworn to give an account of can never be Evidence Mr. Soll. Gen. Truly my Lord I think we need not labour in such a thing as this is L. C. J. Truly Mr. Sollicitour I think it is no Evidence at all if you can prove he was sworn to his whole Narrative and can bring any thing out of that You say something M. Att. Gen. We desire that my Lord of Berkley may be sworn which was done L. C. J. What do you ask him Mr. Att. G. Pray my Lord will you give the Court and the Jury an account whether M. Oates was not sworn to his Narrative and deliver'd in his Evidence at your Lordships Barr upon Oath L. C. J. My Lord of Berkley let me ask you this question was every thing that he gave an account of at the Barr of the Lords House given in upon Oath E. of Berkley I cannot remember that my Lord. L. C. J. It is impossible
that he should E. of Berkley All I can testifie is but what I answered to the question which was asked me at my Lord Stafford's Trial. L. C. J. But that is not material now my Lord because the Record of that Trial is not here E. of Berkley The same thing is entered here particularly Mr. Att. Gen. My Lord we desire it may be read again L. C. J. Read it again with all my Heart L. C. J. This is a particular Oath to a particular purpose and shall I help it by intendment that he was afterwards sworn to the general matter No I will not suppose any thing had happen'd afterwards that it should have been thought fit to prosecute Oates Could the Man have been Convicted of Perjury for this certainly he never could Mr. Soll. Gen. Well my Lord we submit it to you but we will now go on to prove that which Mr. Attorney opened that Oates did suborn these Witnesses to swear what they did swear you have had one part of the Evidence that was then given now we shall prove that Clay was sworn at Whitebreads Trial and what he did there testify about Oates being in Town Oates I own it he was sworn then Mr. Att. Gen. Do you own that you suborn'd him Oates No I think not Mr. Attorney Mr. Soll. Gen. Then we will prove that you did tamper with him and by threatnings prevail'd with him to swear for you Mr. Att. Gen. Nay we will prove that he was mistaken in what he did swear a whole Year Pray call Mr. Charles Howard Oates My Lord I desire I may have leave to ask the Court a question and I beg the Opinion of the Court in it whether a Popish Recusant Convicted may be a good Witness L. C. J. We are not bound to answer your question for we see no ground why you should ask it if you have any occasion to object against any Witness and can produce any Record against him then we will tell you more of our minds Oates Pray then let me ask you another question my Lord. L. C. J. Prethee do not trouble us with thy questions let them go on with their Evidence Oates My Lord I desire to know whether a Man confessing himself a Popish Priest L. C. J. We do not sit here to answer every idle question 't is nothing at all to the purpose When you ask a proper question we will answer it Oates Yes it is my Lord and you are of my Council in matter of Law L. C. J. I am not so Oates Yes my Lord the Court is always of Council for the Prisoner L. C. J. That were well indeed if we were bound to give advice in every case where a Man is Prosecuted at the Kings Suit indeed in those cases where a Man can have no Council allow'd him the Court is of Council for him but where he may have Council the Judges are not of Council for him Mr. J. Holloway Besides We are not here putting of Cases but trying of a Cause Mr. Soll. Gen. Here is Mr. Charles Howard swear him which was done Mr. Att. Gen. My Lord we bring this Gentleman Mr. Charles Howard only to this part of our Evidence to prove that Mr. Clay was mistaken a whole Year mistook 78 for 77. L. C. J. But Mr. Sollicitor if you take this confused method we shall never be at an end and for my part I cannot make any thing of it it is impossible for me to retain these things in memorie so as to give any direction to the Jury if there be not a method used for do you think that it is possible for any Man to retain in his head a hundred things hudled up and down without any order Mr. Soll. Gen. We beg your Lordships patience but a little while and we shall have it in very good order Swear Higgins which was done L. C. J. Pray what do you ask him Mr. Att. Gen. The matter we examine him to is this for I would open to you the nature of our Evidence 1. He swore Smith into the Plot and then gave him a Certificate that he vvas an honest Man L. C. J. Is that Oates's hand M. Att. Gen. We shall prove it to be so L. C. J. You must first prove vvhat he swore of Smith Mr. Att. Gen. My Lord We desire that vve may read his Narrative L. C. J. But first prove it Mr. Attorney Mr. Att. Gen. It is upon Record in the House of Lords L. C. J. Was that delivered in upon Oath to the House of Lords or else vve shall be but vvhere vve vvere Mr. Att. Gen. For proof of that vve call my Lord Bridgewater L. C. J. Here he is swear my Lord which was done Mr. Att. Gen. My Lord Bridgewater do you remember the Narrative that Oates gave in to the House of Lords and vvas it upon Oath but first of all if you please I desire my Lord may see the Book whether any thing be there under his hand and then vvhether it be enter'd to be upon Oath and vvhether this be the Journal agreeing with the Paper deliver'd in L. C. J. This is a Narrative my Lord that he himself deliver'd in and I vvould ask my Lord Bridgewater this one question Was not this Journal compar'd vvith the Narrative given in upon Oath by Order of the Lords House E. Bridgewater Yes I must say I was one of the Committe appointed to take care of the Journal and here is my hand to it among other Lords and that is a Copy of what M. Oates did deliver in as his Narrative which was in inserted upon a report of the Committe into the Journal Book by Order of the Lords and we did examine the Narrative with the Book L. C. J. But what is all this to our purpose now do not mistake me my Lord Bridgwater I do not speak to you now but to Mr. Attorney What does this prove as to the matter in hand Mr. Att. Gen. Pray my Lord Bridgwater did you see the Narrative brought in by Oates E. Bridgwater That Narrative was delivered to us by the Clerk of the Parliament L. C. J. But my Lord do you know that Narrative was given in upon Oath E. Bridgwater I know no other but that the Clerk of the Parliament brought it to us Mr. Att. Gen. Here is the Clerk of the Parliament will tell you that Oates was sworn to it L. C. J. Prove it if you can but hitherto I see nothing that looks like Evidence Mr. Att. Gen. Really my Lord I should take it to be as much Evidence as any that ever was offer'd in the World L. C. J. Pray Mr. Attorney let us Reason the Point a little suppose you bring an answer in Chancery except the man be sworn to it can you read his answer and yet I ever look'd upon an answer in Chancery as Evidence Mr. Att. Gen. In that case the Record proves it self and so it should here and therefore we desire
that he forswore himself Mr. Att. Gen. Pray my Lord give me leave I must pursue my Masters Interest Mr. Soll. Gen. My Lord it was ever Testimony allow'd to be given to detect a Subornation L. C. J. I am sure 't is not fit to be allow'd at any time If he did forswear himself in a Court of Record in my opinion he is not to be receiv'd as a Witness any more Mr. Sol. Gen. We do only make this use of him to prove that Oates did suborn him L. C. J. Pray call some other Witnesses if you have them to contradict him but do not offer to bring a man to swear that he did forswear himself before Mr. Soll. Gen. My Lord we give Evidence here of a mans being produc'd by Oates to swear he was here in May 78. and he did make such an Oath now I hope with Submission my Lord it is Evidence to contradict that Oath if we can prove that he has confessed he was forsworn and mistaken in his Oath such Evidence perhaps will be of little value yet Evidence it is L. C. J. Make it what you will Mr. Sollicitor I think it is of no value at all nor to be admitted for the man to come and swear it himself prove what you can by others Mr. Soll. Gen. Surely my Lord this Confession of his to others is of less value than when we bring the Man himself to confess his fault that Man himself coming and owning the thing that he was mistaken with great sorrow for it sure is a good Evidence L. C. Justice Argue the matter as long as you will Mr. Sollicitor you will never convince me But that he that has once forsworn himself ought not to be a witness after that in any Case whatsoever If any man tell me otherwise till Dooms-day I cannot be convinc'd of it Mr. Soll. Gen. I go but to ask him this Question Whether or no what he swore were true L. C. Justice Mr. Sollicitor we are all of another Opinion that it is not Evidence fit to be given Mr. Soll. Gen. My Lord I must submit it to you L. C. Justice I tell you Mr. Sollicitor if you should call him to know what it was he swore and it does appear by any Evidence or by his own Confession that it was false you ought not to believe what he says even in that matter And I think truly for examples sake it ought not by any means to be admitted Mr. Sollicitor My Lord I must submit it to you but then I humbly conceive it will be in very many Cases impossible to detect a Perjury or Subornation if the Party suborn'd cannot be admitted to be a witness L. C. Justice What good will the admitting him to be a witness do for either what he swore then or what he swears now is false and if he once swears false Can you say he is to be believed Mr. North. My Lord If a man come and swear L. C. Justice Look ye Sir you have our Opinion it has been always the Practice heretofore That when the Court have delivered their Opinion the Council should sit down and not dispute it any further Mr. Att. Gen. Then we will go about the Business of Clay and for that we will call Lawrence Davenport L. C. Justice 'T is certainly against the Law to admit a man that has once forsworn himself to be a witness again in any Cause Mr. Att Gen. Swear Lawrence Davenport which was done 'Pray' give my Lord and the Jury an account how Clay came to be a witness and by whom he was wrought upon to be so Davenport May it please you my Lords and Gentlemen of the Jury Mr. Oates came to the Prison I being then a Prisoner at that time in the Gate-house at Westminster my self and having no other Employment I had the government and care of some of the Prisoners for a livelihood being in custody and at that time Mr. Oates as I said when old Clay was in Prison did come there to visit this Clay at several times and coming there to visit this Clay up stairs he went to his Chamber and desired to speak with him and I did desire your Worship Mr. Oates that you would go in to him and you did go into his Chamber and there these words you did speak to him before the Trial of the five Jesuits That if he did not swear what you put to him he should be prosecuted as a Priest which you did believe he would dye for L. C. Justice What is this man's name Mr. Att. Gen. Lawrence Davenport L. C. Justice Did you hear him say so Davenport Yes my Lord upon my Oath I did hear him say so and Sir William Waller was with him and then he replied and said with a Proviso That you would give him his Gold and Silver that was taken from him being then a Prisoner under My keeping in the Gate-house and wanting his money if you would do that he said he had been a Rogue before and he could not say what he might do L. C. Justice Now make it appear that this Clay was sworn at the Trial. Davenport My Lord afterwards I was Keeper to him under the other Keeper and he had a Keeper to wait on him to Newgate Sessions at the Old Baily wherefore this Gentleman that is standing there Mr. Oates comes to us says he Do not you trouble your self about this Prisoner let him alone with me I 'll see him at home again and then the Jesuits there did take their Trials how it was I cannot tell for we could not come into the Court afterwards they went to the Fountain Tavern by Newgate to Dinner and Mr. Oates and he went to Dinner together we were below in the house waiting there till it was Night and still thinking that he should come down again but away went he home and left us in the lurch but indeed he did come home to the Prison very honestly and civilly because he was civilly guarded Mr. Att. Gen. Now my Lord we 'll give you an account That the next morning after this Discourse betwixt Oates and Clay at the Gate-house this witness told it to another that was a Prisoner there then too Oates My Lord I would ask this man a Question Whether he had the sole keeping of Clay without any other Keeper with him Davenport There was no Keeper in the house but my self where he lay which was in Margaret's Lane not in the Prison but in the House Oates 'Pray' ask this Gentleman why he did not come in and testifie this Discourse he speaks of when Clay was a witness Davenport I was not by when he was sworn Oates Did he not know he was a witness L. C. Justice No he says he did not go into the Court with you he was not suffered to go in Davenport My Lord I am a poor Trandesman and know nothing what belongs to the Law Mr. Att. Gen. Come 'pray' swear this man Mr. which
was done Mr. Soll. Gen. 'Pray' tell what Davenport told you and when Mr. He came and told me the next day in the Prison where I was then what Mr. Oates and Sir William Waller had been tampering with Clay about to make him swear for Mr. Oates L. C. Justice What were the words he told you they said to him Mr. It was That he must swear That Mr. Oates dined at Mr. Howard's house such a day of the month and Mr. Clay did say he knew nothing of the matter but then Sir William Waller and Mr. Oates did reply to him again here 's your Choice if you will not swear this we will try you for a Priest and hang you and so Clay agreed if he might have his money restored that was taken from him he had been a Rogue before and did not know what he might do Oates Is this Evidence my Lord L. C. Justice Yes doubtless very good Evidence Oates 'T is only upon heresay that he speaks L. C. Justice But that establishes the other man's Testimony this being told the very next morning for he would not conceal it it seems Mr. Att. Gen. Now that Clay was sworn at the Trial you admit Mr. Oates Oates Yes I do he was so Mr. Att. Gen. Then I think here 's a plain proof of a Subornation L. C. Justice You must observe how they apply this Evidence They say You are an ill man not only as to swearing false your self but as to suborning others to swear more than they knew and particularly as to this Clay that you and Sir William Waller did threaten him you would hang him up for a Priest if he would not swear as you would have him and by your Threatnings he was prevailed with to swear Oates Is Mr. Clay in Court my Lord L. C. Justice Nay I cannot tell where he is Mr. Att. Gen. He was your witness Mr. Oates we expected you would have brought him Oates I cannot tell where to find him my Lord now truly Mr. Att. Gen. Call Mr. Howard Cryer Here he is Sir he is sworn L. C. Justice Mr. Aâ—torney you have not proved what he swore Mr. Att. Gen. We are now about it my Lord. Mr. Howard 'pray' were you at the Trial of the five Jesuits or at Langhorn's when Clay was sworn as a witness for Dr. Oates Mr. Howard Yes I was at Langhorn's Trial my Lord. Mr. Att. Gen. What was the Effect of his Testimony there Mr. Howard He did swear That he was with me and Mr. Oates at dinner at my House in May in the year 77. Mr. Att. Gen. 77 did he say or 78 Mr. Howard Stay I will look upon my Notes I took at that time L. C. Justice Ay do so to refresh your memory Mr. Howard Mr. Howard It was May 78 my Lord. Mr. Soll. Gen. 'Pray' thus Sir Was he then at your house with Oates Mr. Howard No he was not there in May Mr. Clay was with me and Mr. Oates both together in July 78. after the fourth day of July Mr. Att. Gen. That is after the time he came to London from St. Omers L. C. Justice You say very well have you any more witnesses Mr. Soll. Gen. My Lord we must desire that the 28th Article of Mr. Oates's Narrative may be read O. Grown Reads That in order to this Command on April 24.78 Father Warren Rector of Leidge Sir Thomas Preston Baronet Father Marsh Rector of Gaunt and Father Williams Rector of Watton and Master of the Novices Sir John Warner Baronet Richard Ashby Rector of the English Seminary at St. Omers being sick of the Gout could not go But out of the said Seminary went Sir Robert Bret Baronet Father Pool Edward Nevile There were in all with the Deponent nine or ien who met in London in Consult with Thomas Whitebread Father Harcourt Senior and Father Harcourt Junior John Fenwick Basil Langworth William Morgan John Keimes Father Lovel Father Ireland Father Blundel Richard Strange Father Mico Father Grey and others to the Number of fifty Jesuits met at the White-Horse-Tavern in the Strand where they plotted their Designs for the Society and ordered Father John Carey who was also there to go Procurator for Rome at which Consult thus held in the Month of May the Deponent was present to attend the Consultors and deliver their Concernes from Company to Company and then a little after they left the White-Horse-Tavern and divided themselves into several Clubs and Companies some met at Mr. Saunders House in Wild Street others at Mr. Fenwick 's at Aireses his House in Drury Lane others at Mr. Ireland 's in Russel Street near Covent-Garden and in other places All which though in several Companies five or six in a Company did contrive the death of the King and in order to which there were Papers sent from Company to Company which the Deponent did carry cortaining their opinions of the timing their Business and the manner how it was to be done and within three or four days after the Deponent went to St. Omers with the Fathers that came from the other side of the water Mr. Att. Gen. My Lord we produce this to overthrow their Witnesses That speak of his being here a week in May. Now Mr. Oates in this Narrative says That the Consult ended the twenty fourth of April and that three or four days after he returned back to St. Omers L. C. Justice 'Pray' read that over again where the names are for the Witnesses for the King swear That Mr. Williams came over from St. Omers but he here says he did not I think It was read again L. C. Justice I thought it had been otherwise 'T is darkly penn'd Mr. Att. Gen. My Lord I my self heard him declare in many Trials here and at the Old Baily That all was finished in that day and he went away in a few days Oates Mr. Attorney you are mistaken For if you please my Lord the Consult was not dissolved in six or eight days though they were not sitting or acting every day Mr. Att. Gen. 'T is not a difference of six or eight days that is contended for but it is Either Mr Oates or his Witnesses do not swear true If it were as Mr. Oates says That six or eight days were allow'd after the twenty fourth of April then it must be the fifth or sixth of May that he went to St. Omers and then his Witnesses that say he was here the Latter end of May can not swear true And our Witnesses say he was all April and May until the twenty third of June at St. Omers Oates My Lord Mr. Attorney does not apprehend the Evidence aright L. C. Justice Well you may make your Remarks by and by and set him right if you can Mr. Att. Gen. We have done our Evidence my Lord. L. C. Justice Have you any more Witnesses Mr. Oates Oates No my Lord I have not L. C. Justice Then you must conclude and say what you have to say to
determine my own Right now in this point and I insist upon it and demand it L. C. Justice It may be presently you 'll tell us we have no right to judge of it Oates Yes my Lord you have but I hope I have right to urge it L. C. Justice Urge what you will that is to the purpose but then you must keep to the matter in hand and not make such idle Excursions as these are Oates I will keep to the matter my Lord if you will hear me L. C. Justice So you shall we 'll make you keep to the matter or we will not hear you at all Do not think your Impudence shall storm us out of our Senses Oates My Lord I do insist upon it that these mens Religion is an exception to their Testimony and a Papist is not a good witness in a Cause of Religion and I desire I may have leave to argue that as a Point of Law in my own defence L. C. Justice No Sir it is no point of Law at all Oates Then I appeal to all the hearers whether I have Justice done me L. C. Justice What 's that why you Impudent Fellow do you know where you are you are in a Court of Justice and must appeal to none but the Court and the Jury Oates I do appeal to the hearers L. C. Justice Take him away there if you will not behave your self as you ought I can assure you the Court will do what they ought to do and stop your mouth Oates What you please my Lord I must make my own defence as well as I can L. C. Justice You are here in Judgment before us and are to appeal to us we 'll suffer none of your Common-wealth appeals to your Mobile keep within the Bounds of Decency and say what you can for your self Oates My Lord this I move to the Court as one of my Objections to this Evidence given against me That their Religion makes them no good witnesses especially in this Cause L. C. Justice I tell you that is nothing to the purpose what their Religion is Mr. Just. Holloway Mr. Oates we come not here to dispute Points of Religion we come to try a bare matter of Fact whether you are perjured or no. L. C. Justice I tell you a Papist is a good witness without a Legal Exception Mr. Just Withens 'Pray' Mr. Oates is not a Papist as good a witness as a Dissenter Oates My Lord Cook would not admit a Papist to be a good witness in any Cause Mr. Just Withens How not in a Cause of Meum and Tuum Oates No my Lord not in any Cause between Party and Party L. C. Justice Where is that Opinion Oates I 'll cite you the Case if you please my Lord. L. C. Justice 'Pray' let us hear it Oates It is in Bulstrod's Reports the Second Part 155. A Popish Recusant is not to be admitted a witness between Party and Party Mr. Just Withens May a Presbyterian be a good witness Mr. Oates Mr. Just Holloway Or would Mr. Colledge have been a good Witness Mr. Oates Oates I tell you this was my Lord Cook 's practice L. C. Justice You have our Opinion and be satisfied with it That Book says it was my Lord Cook 's practice and we think if that was his practice his practice was against Law Oates Then another thing I object to their Testimony is their Education L. C. Justice That 's no Objection at all neither Oates My Lord they are bred up in a Seminary against Law and for which their Friends are to be punished L. C. Justice So is every man living that 's bred a Dissenter bred up against Law Oates My Lord I have not offered any Dissenter as Evidence for me L. C. Justice No they are all no doubt of it very good People Good-wife Mayo and her Companions excellent Protestants without all question Oates My Lord I humbly offer a Statute to your Lordship And that is Law sure L. C. Justice Yes a Statute is Law What Statute is it Oates It is 27º of Eliz. Cap. 2. The Law says there L. C. Justice Come we will see what the Law says Read the Statute he speaks of Cl. Crown It is Intituled an Act against Jesuits Priests and other such like disobedient Persons Oates My Lord I desire That the Preamble of the Act may be read Cl. Crown Whereas divers Fersons called and professed Jesains Seminary Priests and other Priests which have been and from time to time are made in the Parts beyond the Seas by or according to the Order and Rites of the Romish Church have of late come and have been sent and daily do come and are sent into this Realm of England and others the Queen's Majestie 's Dominions L. C. Justice This is nothing to this Business before us at all Mr. Justice Withens Does this Statute say they are no good witnesses Oates They own themselves to be Educated at St. Omers and that is against this Law expresly L. C. Justice What then Do they own themselves to be in Orders Jesuits and Priests Then you might say somewhat to them upon this Law but do not spend our time in such Trifles Oates I do not spend your time in Trifles my Lord. It is my Defence L. C. Justice Mr Attorney do you go on for we will not sit here to spend our time for nothing Oates 'Pray' my Lord let me but shew this I only propose one Statute more to your Lordship's Consideration L. C. Justice You may propose to read the whole Statute Book Oates 'Pray' my Lord hear me out L. C. Justice Speak then to the Business in hand Oates It is the Statute made in 3d. King Charles the First Chap. 2. L. C. Justice It is nothing to the purpose Oates I am advised 't is very material for me L. C. Justice I tell you it is not and we 'll not let your importunity prevail upon us to spend our time for nothing There has been a great deal of time spent to no purpose already Oates Then if you will over rule it my Lord L. C. Justice We do over-rule it For it signifies nothing to this purpose Oates 'Pray' my Lord be pleased to give me leave to offer their Judgments in Cases of Conscience whereby they own they have Dispensations to swear Lies for the promoting of the Cause L. C. Justice That is no Evidence neither Oates This is very hard in such a Case as this L. C. Justice No It is not hard that what is no Evidence in Law should not be suffered to be given in Evidence Oates It is Evidence against the poor Dissenters my Lord. L. C. Justice Indeed Sir It is not Evidence against any one body in the World if you will take my word for it if you will not I cannot tell how to help it Oates Then I offer you one thing more my Lord and that is what was said and done in the Case of the Earl of Shaftsbury when
he was charged with High Treason and committed to the Tower of London at several Sessions in the Old Baily and at Hicks's Hall they did move that they might have liberty to bring in an Indictment of Perjury against the witnesses which did accuse him of Treason but now the Court there over-ruled those Motions and would not suffer my Lord of Shaftsbury's Friends to bring Indidictments of Perjury against him because they would not have the King's Evidence Indicted of Perjury nor the Popish Plot called in question This is matter of Fact in the Old Baily L. C. Justice And this is all idle too Oates 'Pray' my Lord will you hear me L. C. Justice But 'pray' Sir will you hear me too I tell you this is nothing to the purpose neither Oates My Lord I desire to speak but these few words then as to my own Witnesses I have produced And the first is Cicely Mayo and my Lord though it be your Lordships pleasure not to have that good opinion of her as I think the poor woman does deserve yet I hope her Evidence will have it's due Weight and Consideration with your Lordship and the Jury she says she saw me in Town in the Month of May Now indeed she could not be positive what May it was but she said it was the May before the Popish Plot broke out that is before the Rumour of that Plot was spread abroad and she believes the Plot broke out in 78. But this she says positively she saw me in the Month of May here my Lord she comes to give this Evidence freely and voluntarily a man that is a Knave is a Knave for something either out of Malice or for Gain or Interest but she has no Reward given her nor can hope for any but in Love to Justice without any by-end or particular Interest she came here to testifie the truth about her seeing me in London in May 78. The next Witness is Mr. Butler he was then Sir Richard Barker's Coachman He lived some years with him as his Servant but he is now set up for himself and he says that when he was about his Masters Business in the Coach-yard and fitting the Coach for to fetch his Master home from Putney I came in and this was in the beginning of May in a disguise and he says he saw me a second time in another disguise Then comes a third Witness that I called and that is Page and he came into the Hall where the Patients use to wait for his Master and there he met me and spoke with me Then I called Walker the Minister but it happens his Memory is not so good now as it was heretofore and indeed I cannot tell how to blame him for 't is so long since that it is impossible for any body to remember the Circumstances of times and places that in some short time after the Fact might have been remembred with far greater Ease I expected Sir Richard Barker might have been here being Subpoened to Justifie the Evidence of these people and I did expect that Mr. Smith would have been examined but I perceived the Court tender of that point as knowing it would then easily have been seen upon which side it was that he was suborn'd that is to make such a Confession as Mr. Attorney would have hinted at L. C. Justice Have you a mind to examine him Mr. Oates with all my heart If you consent to it he shall be examined Mr. Just Withens If you will he shall be examined it was for your sake he was not Mr. Just Holloway It was to do you Right that he was refused to be sworn before Oates Good Mr. Justice Holloway you are very sharp upon me Mr. Just. Holloway No I am not sharp upon you I think the Court did you a great deal of Justice you have no reason to complain Oates But my Lord this I say The Evidence upon which I am now indicted of Perjury is the same which was delivered six years ago at the Old Baily at Whitebread's Trial first and then at Langhorn's Trial where were sixteen Witnesses then produced and heard against me But then my Lord what Credit did they receive at Whitebread and Langhorn's Trials Now if this Evidence that I gave was then to be beleived tho opposed by so many Witnesses what new objection does rise against it which was not then hinted and received an answer For as to all the Records that are brought out of the House of Lords they have not amounted to a Charge sufficient to diminish any mans Evidence in the world for as to the Narrative that is entred there in the Journal I think I and any man else that were concerned as I was may very well defend the truth of it and I do avow the truth of the Popish Plot and will stand by it as long as I have a day to live and I do not question but the Jury upon Consideration of those Protestant Witnesses that I have here brought against these Popish Seminaries will acquit me of this Perjury I leave it to your Lordship and the Jury to judge and I hope those passages of heat that have fallen from me in Court shall not make me fare at all the worse in your Judgement I have called some Noble Lords to testify for me but I find either the distance of time has wrought upon their memories or the difference of the season has chang'd their opinion so that now they disbelieve that which they did believe before and perhaps for as little Reason as L. C. Justice As they believed you at first Oates Yes truely my Lord for as little reason as they believed me at first For I cannot expect that a man who believes without a principal should not recant that belief without a reason L. C. Justice What do you mean by that Oates I name no body L. C. Justice But the Nobility that are here and that have been Witnesses in this Cause are all persons of that Honour that the Court is bound in Justice to take notice of and vindicate them from your scandalous Reflections but only I think that a Slander from your Mouth is very little Scandal Oates Nor from some bodies else neither L. C. Justice But Sir you must be taught better manners Oates I find my Lord I am not to be heard in this Cause with Patience L. C. Justice I think you do not deserve to be heard at all Oates I cannot tell how to help it if you will not hear me L. C Justice Can't you say what you have to say for your self without Reflections and running out into such Extravagancies Oates My Lord you will suffer me to offer nothing that is Material for my Defence Mr. Just. Walcot Do you think it decent for this Court to suffer persons of Honour that by your own desire were sworn to give Testimony in this Cause should lie under the Reproach of your Tongue Oates Good Mr. Justice Walcot was there ever
Wifes Sister and his Nephew and his Daughter and his Neeces and a worshipful Knight and I know not who that the old Woman tells me are gone into my Countrey were all there at the same time and no body comes to testifie it but onely this Coachman and this old Woman These Gentlemen are things fit to be thought of But now let us consider how they agree in their Evidence Says the Woman I saw him not till the beginning of May but I am sure he was there before once or twice And how does she know that because the Coachman told her so and he came there several times but he did Dine there but once and when he came there the first time she saw him he came in such a disguise and he had a short Perriwig and a kind of short white Coat and a white Hat but when my Coachman comes to swear he tells you the first time he saw him the Woman saw him too that he had his own Hair and cut close to his cars that made him look as the young fellow told her like a Quaker And when I asked the Coachman Are you sure that Benjamin the young Fellow did see him the first time you saw him there he told me No but he was sure the old Woman did look out of the window and see him which she denies I then asked him how often he dined there he tells you several times and there were such and such and the old Woman did see him dine there several times which she denies that she ever saw him dine there above once And I take notice of one of the Evidence the Coachman he gives but an odd sort of reason for his remembrance In February says he my Lady died and my Master was sick at Putney and Oates came into the Yard while I was cleaning my Coach and I am sure it was where the Coat of Arms hung over the door because he asked me about my Ladies death and therefore it must be in May when for ought does appear to the contrary it might be in any other Month after the Escutcheon was up and in the other circumstances there is no certainty at all So that it is plain these Witnesses swear according as their humour leads them and not according to any remembrance they have of the thing And I rather believe it because the third Witness that is Page the Apothecary that used to make up Sir Richard Barker's Medicines gives an Evidence contrary to both those he cannot remember the year positively or particularly but I 'll tell you how he thwarts and contradicts the other peoples Testimony for he remembers he came in such a disguife but he believes no body spoke to him but himself because he found him walking in the place that was for the common reception of the Patients and he asked for Dr. Tongue and he not being within he went away very discontented and so now these three Witnesses seem to contradict one another and the last Witness Walker who is the Parson he says nothing to the matter for it does plainly appear the time which he speaks of which was about a year and a half before he was call'd to testifie at the five Jesuits Tryal must be in the year 77 and not in the year 78 which is the Question here which must be before he went first to St. Omers Gentlemen the other part of Mr. Oates's Defence has been upon this Topick says he I have been believed heretofore the Parliaments have given me credit and to prove it he has call'd several Noble Lords and Persons of Quality The first was my Lord of Devonshire who says he cannot remember any particulars of his Evidence 't is so long since but he remembers the Parliament upon the Evidence given of the Plot did make such Votes as we do all know of And there were a great many people that gave credit to his Testimony who God be thanked are of another opinion now And my Lord of Clare says he was not in the House of Lords at the beginning of the Discovery and cannot remember any thing in particular But my Lord of Huntingdon was a little more particular and Mr. Oates began to be angry with him because he spoke so much says he I remember Mr. Oates was examin'd in the House of Lords and was believed there because they did believe he spoke truth at that time but now upon consideration of the Contradictions and Falsities of his Evidence I cannot but say I do believe him says he to be a great Villain and that he has been guilty of spilling innocent Bloud And this Noble Lord speaks with great Honour and Consideration And truly I believe if every man that is here were to speak his mind my Lord has delivered the Opinions of us all and many thousands more in the Nation Mr. Oates call'd next my Lord Chief Baron my Brother Gregory my Lord of London Sir George Treby Mr. Williams and my Brother Dolben But they all tell you they are able to give no particular Answers to his Questions and this was the sum of his Evidence To this Mr. Attorney General has given a Reply of Evidence that truly is of very great moment First here is produced Sir George Wakeman whom Oates accused of High-Treason and he suffered his Tryal and was acquitted so that as well as the Jury had given credit to him in the former Verdicts so says Mr. Attorney I must speak likewise for the credit of that Verdict that did disbelieve him because though he did swear as roundly and briskly up to the matter as he had done before yet when he had not the hurry and surprize of his Discovery to support him his Villany was detected and the Innocent acquitted And besides the Record of the acquittal here is the Person himself who is now under no dread or danger having stood his Tryal and being acquitted and he takes it upon his Oath in the presence of the Great God the Searcher of Hearts That whatsoever Oates swore against him at his Tryal was every tittle of it false And this Acquittal of his being after great and mature consideration is an Evidence of anothergets quality than the Verdicts of the other Convictions Next to him is my Lord Castlemain a Person of very great Honour and he gives an account he was arraigned of High-Treason at this Bar and upon his Tryal Oates was produced as a Witness against him and there he swore he met with my Lord Castlemain in Lincolns-Inn-Fields and great familiarity there was between them so that my Lord could not trust him in a less affair than the Plot and away he goes with him to Fenwick's Chamber there to talk about a Designe of killing the late King Mr. Oates of all mankind must be the great Repository of this Secret but the Jury then being Persons of great Understanding and Integrity did not believe Oates but acquitted my Lord Castlemain And he does here take it
mans credit and look upon his Evidence as I do to be very false L. C. J. Do you hear him Mr. Oates Oates No my Lord I do not very well L. C. J. Then my Lord of Huntingdon turn your face to the Jury and say what you said to us over again Which his Lordship did to the same Effect Oates Very well my Lord. Mr. J. Withens There 's your Credit with the House of Lords Mr. Oates Oates My Lord I call'd you in to answer my question as to somewhat what is past and to give your judgment how you are inclin'd to believe now L. C. J. Nay but with your favour it was to declare what opinion the House of Lords had of you and he says very well and that is in truth the same answer that must be given for the Judges and the Juries that try'd the People upon your Evidence says my Lord of Huntingdon at first truly I did believe Mr. Oates did swear true and he had credit with me and so he had with others But now upon further Examination into things and in process of time Discoveries have been made of the truth and that what he swore is false so that now I believe in my Conscience he is actually forsworn and has drawn innocent Blood upon the Nation and no body will believe a word he says Oates Well my Lord I have done with my Lord of Huntingdon Mr. J. Withens And he has done with you as I perceive L. C. J. Yes truly methinks ye shake hands and part very fairly Mr. J. Holloway There 's my Lord Chief Baron what say you to him Mr. Oates L. C. J. Is my Lord Chief Baron sworn Cryer Yes my Lord he is L. C. J. Then what do you ask him Oates My Lord I call'd your Lordship because your Lordship sate as a Commissioner of Oyer and Terminer in the Old-Bayly at Ireland Whitebread and Langhorn's Tryals and that which I call your Lordship for is to give an account to my Lord and the Jury of the satisfaction your Lordship received concerning the fullness and fairness of the Evidence then deliver'd by me in those Tryals L. C. Baron My Lord I cannot charge my memory with it L. C. J. He says he cannot remember L. C. Baron No not in particular but in general I remember there was a great many Persons that gave Evidence in those Tryals on the one side and the other There were a great many Persons that came from St. Omers that gave Evidence there of Mr. Oates being at St. Omers when he said he was in Town Oates And what Credit were they of at that time pray my Lord L. C. Baron I think they were Persons of very good Credit they were Gentlemen of good Families many of them Oates Did the Jury believe them at that time L. C. Baron I cannot tell what the Jury did L. C. J. Nor is it any matter at all what they did But I would ask you my Lord but one question Have you heard this Evidence that has been given here to day L. C. Baron No my Lord I have not L. C. J. If you had I would then have ask'd you whether you believe him now or not L. C. Baron Truly my Lord I never had any great Faith in him I do assure you as to my self Mr. J. Withens You hear what he says Mr. Oates you had never any great Credit with him Oates My Lord I am not at all concern'd at this I value my self more upon my own Innocency and Integrity than any Man 's good or bad Opinion whatsoever L. C. J. Ah! your innocency is very great Oates Then my Lord I will conclude my Evidence Mr. Att. Gen. My Lord before Mr. Oates goes to summ up his Evidence we have some other Evidence to give L. C. J. What say you Mr. Oates will you call any other Witnesses to this point Oates My Lord if they bring any other Evidence I hope I may have my turn to answer it L. C. J. Ah! Truly if they bring any new Evidence that you have not applied to already God forbid that you should not be heard but if it only gives an answer to the Evidence that has been given then you must not retort on them for they are to have the last word but it is not fit withal that you should be denied any thing that is necessary or really of advantage to you Oates If they offer any new Evidence to my dis-reputation the question is whether I may have a time allotted me to make my defence against that Evidence L. C. J. Ah! Ah! In God's name by all means Mr. Att. Gen. This is the usual method of Proceedings but I would know if Mr. Oates has any more Witnesses to Examine to this point that he has examin'd to already Oates My Lord I think I have no further Evidence at present till I hear what they further say Mr. Att. Gen. Then may it please your Lordship and you Gentlemen of the Jury Oates I hope when your Lordship summs up the Evidence you 'll remember what has been said by the Witnesses L. C. J. You may assure your self I will remember whatsoever has been said on the one side and t'other as near as I can the Gentlemen of the Jury are Men of understanding and I see they take Notes and I 'le give them all the assistance I can Oates Truly my Lord I have some more Witnesses to the same purpose if your Lordship please to spare time to hear them L. C. J. Ah! Ah! We sit here to hear the Witnesses call whom you will Oates Is my Lord Lovelace here L. C. J. I cannot tell I do not see him here but you did call my Brother Gregory there he is what say you to him Oates Mr. Baron Gregory was Speaker of the House of Commons in one of the Westminster Parliaments L. C. J. Swear my Brother Gregory which was done Oates I desire your Honour would be pleas'd to give this Court and the Jury an account you being Speaker of the House of Commons what credit I received there in that House upon my discovery of the Popish Plot. Mr. B. Gregory My Lord that is a pretty general question it is not possible for me to remember the Proceedings in the House of Commons so long ago L. C. J. But Brother I tell you what he means by it he would have you to answer this question whether he was of good credit in the House of Commons or not Mr. B. Gregory I know not what answer to make about the credit he there had any Member of the House of Commons may give as good and better an account in that matter than I and truly I do not remember that Mr. Oates was before the Barr of the House when I was Speaker I believe it was before I was Speaker that he was Examined at the Commons Barr. L. C. J. Well he can remember nothing of it Oates Is my Lord Lovelace there Crier He has