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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A94227	Tvvo speeches in Parliament of the right honourable William, Lord Vicount Say and Seale Mr. of his Majesties Court of Wards and Liveries, and one of his Majesties most honourable Privie Councell, the first upon the bill against bishops power in civill affaires and courts of judicature. The other a declaration of himself touching the liturgie, and separation.	Saye and Sele, William Fiennes, Viscount, 1582-1662.	1641 (1641)	Wing S795; ESTC R230189	10,162	16

to them to conceive prayer or to helpe themselves by the use of any other forme they please aswell as this prescribed And let them practise the same indifferently that so it may be manifest the fault rests in the person and not in the Service in the negligence of him that may offer better if he will not in the Injunction of that which is offered And I will not refuse to come to prayer for I take the sinne then to bee personall and to reside in the person officiating onely I know not whether I expresse my selfe clearely to be understood in this or not and it may seeme to be a nice scrupulosity give me leave therefore to indeavour to cleare it by an instance or two In the time of the Law when God appointed himselfe to be worshipped by offerings and sacrifices the shadowes and types of those truths which were to come If a poore man that had not ability to bring a Bullocke or a Ramme or a Lambe had brought a paire of Turtle Doves or two young Pigeons it would have beene in him an acceptable service But if a man of ability who had heards and flocks should out of negligence or covetousnesse have spared the cost of a Bullocke or a Ramme and brought young Pigeons his service would have beene rejected and himselfe punished how much more would the service have beene abomination if men should have taken authority to have injoyned all to bring no other but Turtles or young Pigeons because some were not able to doe more In one case there might be a tollerable and lawfull use of that which otherwise used especially if generally injoyned would have beene most unlawfull God will be worshipped with the fatte and the best of the inwards the best of mens gifts and abilities which he that worships or officiates in worshipping is to doe at his owne perill And if it be left free unto him the worship may be lawful to him that joyneth with him therein in it selfe though performed in a negligent and so in a sinfull manner by the Minister but if that manner bee injoyned the Service it selfe is to be refused Now in the time of the Gospell God hath appointed the foolishnesse of preaching for so the world accompts it to be the meanes whereby he will save those that beleeve I conceive where there are no gifts inabling men to preach there might bee a lawfull and profitable use of reading of printed Sermons and Homilies and in such case they might very lawfully be heard But if some men upon pretence to prevent extravagant preaching should take upon them to set forth a booke of publike or common Sermons fit for all times and occasions and should injoyne Ministers to conforme to those and use no other preaching at all but the reading of these common Sermons or Homilies so devised for publike worship this would make it utterly unlawful and to be professed against as that which were the bringing in of a humane device and injunction in the place and in stead of Gods ordinance to the exclusion thereof as the Pharisees to establish traditions of their owne made void the commandements of God let it bee considered what difference there can bee found betweene these but onely this Use and Custome hath enured us to that of Prayer not so in this of Preaching and therefore the evill of it would easily appeare unto us if so injoyned My Lords let me presume upon your patience so farre further as to give me leave to speake to the other imputation laid upon mee that I am a Separatist and the greatest in England and first I shall say of this word Separatist as that learned man Mr. Hales of Eaton saith in a little Manuscript of his which I have seene That where it may be rightly fixed and deservedly charged it is certainly a great offence But in common use now amongst us it is no other then a Theologicall scar-crow wherewith the potent and prevalent party useth to fright and enforce those who are not of their opinions to subscribe to their dictates without daring to question them or bring them to any rule or examination either of Scripture or reason And he observeth that this was too usuall even in ancient times as well as now Secondly I say that there is a twofold separation one from the Universall or Catholike Church which can no otherwise be made but by denying the faith for Faith and Love are the Requisites unto that communion the other is a separation from this or that particular Church or congregation and that not in respect of difference with them in matter of faith or love but in dislike onely of such corruptions in their externall worships and Liturgies as they doe admit of and would injoyne upon others This is a separation not from their persons as they are Christians but from their corruptions in matter of worship as they are therewith defiled And this separation every man that sin keepe himselfe pure from other mens sins and not sin against his own conscience must make And I will ingenuously confesse that there are many things in many Churches or Congregations in England practised and injoyned upon all to be practised and suffered which I cannot practise nor admit of except I should sin against the light of my conscience untill I may out of the word of God be convinced of the lawfulnesse of them which hitherto I could never see sufficient ground for But my Lords this is so farre from making me the greatest Separatist in England that it cannot argue me to be any at all for my Lords the Bishops doe know that those whom they usually apply this terme unto are the Brownists as they call them by another name and they know their tenents The truth is they differ with us in no fundamentall point of doctrine or saving truth as I know Their failing is in this they hold that there is no true Church in England no true Ministry no true worship which depend the one upon the other they say all is Antichristian here is their errour they distinguish not betweene the bene esse or puritie of a true Church and the esse or true being of it though with many defects and grosse corruptions But conclude that because such things are wanting which are indeed necessary to the well being of a true Church and to be desired therefore there is none at all in being I hold no such opinion but doe beleeve to the contrary That there are in England many true Churches and a true Ministrie which I doe heare and with which Churches I could joyne in communion were those yokes of bondage which are laid upon them taken off and those corruptions removed which they doe contrary as I thinke to their dutie yeeld unto and admit of and this I am sure no separatist in England holdeth that deserveth that name Therefore I hope your Lordships will in that respect let me stand right in your opinions I shall now end with two requests The one that your Lordships will please to pardon me for troubling you with so long a discourse concerning my selfe I have not used it heretofore and I am not like to offend againe in the same kind it is but once and your Lordships will consider the occasion The second is humbly to intreat of you that where you know there is one and the same God worshiped one and the same faith imbraced one and the same spirit working love and causing an unblameable conversation without any offence to the State in your brethren that in all these concurre with you you will not suffer them for Ceremonies and things to you indifferent but not to them but burthens which without offence to the State or prejudice to the Churches you may take off if you will to be thrust out of the Land and cut off from their native Countrey for if you thus shall wound the consciences of your brethren you will certainly offend and sinne against Christ FINIS

TWO SPEECHES IN PARLIAMENT OF THE RIGHT HONOVRABLE WILLIAM LORD Vicount SAY and SEALE Mr. of his Majesties Court of Wards and Liveries and one of his Majesties most Honourable Privie Councell The first upon the Bill against Bishops power in civill affaires and Courts of Judicature The other a Declaration of himself touching the Liturgie and separation LONDON Printed for Thomas Vnderhill 1641. A Speech of the Right Honourable WILLIAM Lord Vicount Say and Seale one of his Majesties most Honourable privie Councell spoken in Parliament upon the Bill against the Bishops MY LORDS I Shall not need to begin as high as Adam in answer to what hath bin drawne downe from thence by a Bishop concerning this question The Bishop of Lincolne for that which is pertinent to it will onely be what concernes Bishops as they are ministers of the Gospell what was before being of another nature can give no rule to this The question that will lye before your Lordships in passing of this bill is not whether Episcopacie I meane this Hierarchicall Episcopacy which the world now holds forth to us shall be taken away Roote and branch but whether those exuberant and superfluous branches which draw away the sap from the tree and divert it from the right and proper use whereby it becomes unfruitfull shall be cut off as they use to plucke up suckers from the Roote The question will be no more but this whether Bishops shall be reduced to what they were in their first advancement over the Presbyters which although it were but a humane device for the Remedy of Schisme yet were they in those times least offensive or continue still with the addition of such things as their owne ambition and the ignorance and superstition of succeeding times did adde thereunto and which are now continued for severall politicke ends things heterogeneall and inconsistent with their calling and function as they are ministers of the Gospell and thereupon such as ever have been and ever will be hurtfull to themselves and make them hurtfull to others in the times and places where they are continued And these things alone this bill takes away that is their offices and places in Courts of Judicature and their imployments by Obligation of office in civill affaires I shall insist upon this to shew first how these things hurt themselves and secondly how they have made and ever will make them hurtfull to others They themselves are hurt thereby in their consciences and in their credits In their consciences by seeking or admitting things which are inconsistent with that function and office which God hath set them apart unto They are separated unto a speciall worke and men must take heed how they mis-imploy things dedicated and set apart to the service of God They are called to preach the Gospell and set apart to the worke of the ministery and the Apostle saith who is sufficient for these things shewing that this requireth the whole man and all is too little therefore for them to seeke or take other offices which shal require and tye them to imploy their time and studies in the affaires of this world wil draw a guilt upon them as being inconsistent with that which God doth call them and set them apart unto In this respect our Saviour hath expresly prohibited it telling his Apostles that they should not Lord it over their Brethren nor exercise Jurisdiction over them as was used in civill governments among the Heathen They were called gracious Lords and exercised Jurisdiction as Lords over others and sure they might lawfully doe so but to the Ministers of the Gospel our Saviour gives this Rule it shall not be so done by you If ye strive for greatnesse he shall be the greatest that is the greatest servant to the rest therefore in another place he saith Hee that putteth his hand to the Plow and looketh backe to the things of this world is not fit for the kingdom of God that is the preaching of the Gospel as it is usually called To be thus withdrawne by intangling themselves with the affaires of this life by the necessity and duty of an Office received from men from the discharge of that Office which God hath called them unto brings a woe upon them Woe unto me saith the Apostle if I preach not the Gospel what doth he meane If I preach not once a quarter or once a yeare in the Kings Chappell No he himself interpreted it Preach the Word be instant in season and out of season rebuke exhort or instruct with all long suffering and doctrine he that hath an office must attend upon his office especially this of the ministery The practice of the Apostles is answerable to the direction and doctrine of our Saviour There never was nor will be men of so great abilities and gifts as they were indued withall yet they thought it so inconsistent with their Callings to take places of Judicature in civill matters and secular affaires and imployments upon them that they would not admit of the care and distraction that a businesse farre more agreeable to their Callings then these would cast upon them and they give the reason of it in the sixth of the Acts It is not reason that we should leave the word of God and serve Tables And again when they had appointed them to choose men fit for that businesse they institute an office rather for taking care of the poore then they by it would be distracted from the principall worke of their Calling and then shew how they ought to imploy themselves But we said they will give our selves continually to prayer and to the ministry of the Word Did the Apostles men of extraordinary gists thinke it unreasonable for them to be hindred from giving themselves continually to preaching the Word and Prayer by taking care for the tables of the poore Widowes and can the Bishops now thinke it reasonable or lawfull for them to contend for sitting at Councell Table to governe States to turne States-men in stead of Church-men to sit in the highest Courts of Judicature and to be imployed in making lawes for civill polities and government If they shall be thought fit to sit in such places and will undertake such imployments they must not fit there as ignorant men but must be knowing men in businesses of State and understand the Rules and lawes of government and therby both their time and studies must be necessarily diverted from that which God hath called them unto And this sure is much more unlawfull for them to admit of then that which the Apostles rejected as a distraction unreasonable for them to be interrupted by The doctrine of the Apostles is agreeable to their practice herein for Paul when hee instructeth Timothy for the work of the ministery presseth this argument from the example of a good Souldier no man that warreth intangleth himselfe with the affaires of the world So that I conclude That which by the commandement of our Saviour